Subject: Re: [TR] Electric Fans: Something Different

From: "John Macartney" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 14:56:08 +0100

I think I'm correct in saying one of the reasons for the heavier flywheel is
that the wet liner four engine was originally designed for the Standard
Vanguard with a two speed (low and high) gearbox with overdrive and also the
Ferguson tractor - both of which engines needed to develop shedloads of
torque at very low engine speeds. In both instances, much heavier flywheels
were required. Even if the early TR's could have got away with lighter
units, that would have meant having two different units. In those early post
WW2 days, iron and steel in the UK was in such short supply that having a
'common' flywheel across the range made economic sense from a production
cost viewpoint. Just an opinion

Jonmac

-----Original Message-----
From: Triumphs <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of
[email-masked]
Sent: 23 July 2018 00:38
To: 'TERRY SMITH' <[email-masked]>; Randall <[email-masked]>;
Andrew Uprichard <[email-masked]>; George Haynes
<[email-masked]>; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [TR] Electric Fans: Something Different

I believe the TR2/3/4 was more or less "balanced" internally.  The flywheel
weighs about 3x what it needs to.  I believe they used the flywheel to
smooth it out.

Jonas Payne
PBR Consulting Services, LLC
702.882.6711

** [email-masked] **

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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:38:40 -0400

> do they make a lighter flywheel?  What about Aluminum?

Fidanza offers an alloy flywheel (with a replaceable steel insert for the
friction surface). 

I've been running one for perhaps 15 years now; and I like the overall
effect.  Makes the car much more nimble at low speeds (mostly in 1st gear).

However, it did have a very definite effect (for me) on launching the car
(initial acceleration from a standstill); behind two different engines.  Not
hard to cope with, but even after all these years I still have to think
about it to avoid killing the engine.  And I still occasionally do kill it,
usually when I'm just puttering around and thinking about something else.

Also, it is deliberately a very tight fit on the end of the crankshaft.  You
can use the bolts to pull it into place (tightening each bolt a fraction of
a turn at a time, in a criss-cross pattern), but I had to heat the flywheel
(with a propane torch) to get it off.

Joe A. had some lightweight steel flywheels made, but I think he sold them
all and has no plans to make more.

There are instructions in the "Competition Preparation" manual for how to
lighten a stock flywheel.  Any decent machine shop should be able to do the
work (but I assume will insist you sign a waiver so they can't be
responsible if the resulting unit breaks in operation).

IIRC, the post-50K flywheel is somewhat lighter than the earlier one.  I
don't know how the TR4A flywheel compares to either of the early ones, but
it might be slightly lighter still.  The 4A clutch is lighter (I'm also
using a 4A clutch).

It's worth noting, perhaps, that weight distribution is important too; what
we really want to minimize is rotational inertia.  So weight near the rim
has much more effect than weight near the center.

You also might want to think about what happens if, for example, you miss a
shift and the flywheel breaks from centrifugal force.  Serious racers
install extra shielding to (hopefully) protect them if the worst happens.

-- Randall

---

From: Paul Dorsey <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:17:01 -0400

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Paul

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:30 AM John Macartney <[email-masked]>
wrote:

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<div dir=3D"ltr">do they make a lighter flywheel?=C2=A0 What about Aluminum=
?<div>Paul</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mo=
n, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:30 AM John Macartney &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:john.macart=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I think I&#39;m correct in saying one of the re=
asons for the heavier flywheel is<br>
that the wet liner four engine was originally designed for the Standard<br>
Vanguard with a two speed (low and high) gearbox with overdrive and also th=
e<br>
Ferguson tractor - both of which engines needed to develop shedloads of<br>
torque at very low engine speeds. In both instances, much heavier flywheels=
<br>
were required. Even if the early TR&#39;s could have got away with lighter<=
br>
units, that would have meant having two different units. In those early pos=
t<br>
WW2 days, iron and steel in the UK was in such short supply that having a<b=
r>
&#39;common&#39; flywheel across the range made economic sense from a produ=
ction<br>
cost viewpoint. Just an opinion<br>
<br>
Jonmac<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Triumphs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" targe=
t=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; On Behalf Of<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a=
><br>
Sent: 23 July 2018 00:38<br>
To: &#39;TERRY SMITH&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; Randall &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tr3d=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;;<br>
Andrew Uprichard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"=
_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; George Haynes<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">ghaynestr4@aol.=
com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">t=
[email-masked]</a><br>
Subject: Re: [TR] Electric Fans: Something Different<br>
<br>
I believe the TR2/3/4 was more or less &quot;balanced&quot; internally.=C2=
=A0 The flywheel<br>
weighs about 3x what it needs to.=C2=A0 I believe they used the flywheel to=
<br>
smooth it out.<br>
<br>
Jonas Payne<br>
PBR Consulting Services, LLC<br>
702.882.6711<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
** <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">triumphs@au=
tox.team.net</a> **<br>
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et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
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lman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]</a><br>
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From: "Andrew Uprichard" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 17:50:38 -0400

This is a multipart message in MIME format.

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Both my TR3s have lightened flywheels which came from Racetorations.  No =
financial interest, but it is owned by my cousin, Darryl Uprichard, and =
if he is in a good mood I sometimes get a family discount.

=20

Having driven several stock TR3s, I do notice the difference.  But then, =
both cars also have 89mm pistons, so I cannot ascribe it entirely to the =
flywheel.

=20

Andrew Uprichard

Jackson, Michigan

=20

From: Paul Dorsey [mailto:[email-masked]]=20
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 3:17 PM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]; TERRY SMITH; Randall; [email-masked]; =
[email-masked]; Triumph list Team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] Electric Fans: Something Different

=20

Paul

=20

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:30 AM John Macartney =
<[email-masked]> wrote:

I think I'm correct in saying one of the reasons for the heavier =
flywheel is
that the wet liner four engine was originally designed for the Standard
Vanguard with a two speed (low and high) gearbox with overdrive and also =
the
Ferguson tractor - both of which engines needed to develop shedloads of
torque at very low engine speeds. In both instances, much heavier =
flywheels
were required. Even if the early TR's could have got away with lighter
units, that would have meant having two different units. In those early =
post
WW2 days, iron and steel in the UK was in such short supply that having =
a
'common' flywheel across the range made economic sense from a production
cost viewpoint. Just an opinion

Jonmac

-----Original Message-----

I believe the TR2/3/4 was more or less "balanced" internally.  The =
flywheel
weighs about 3x what it needs to.  I believe they used the flywheel to
smooth it out.

Jonas Payne

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked].=
uk

---

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Both my TR3s have lightened =
flywheels which came from Racetorations.=C2=A0 No financial interest, =
but it is owned by my cousin, Darryl Uprichard, and if he is in a good =
mood I sometimes get a family discount.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Having =
driven several stock TR3s, I do notice the difference.=C2=A0 But then, =
both cars also have 89mm pistons, so I cannot ascribe it entirely to the =
flywheel.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Andrew =
Uprichard<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Jackson, =
Michigan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Paul Dorsey [mailto:[email-masked]] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, =
September 10, 2018 3:17 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
[email-masked]<br><b>Cc:</b> [email-masked]; TERRY =
SMITH; Randall; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; Triumph =
list Team.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [TR] Electric Fans: Something =
Different<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>do they =
make a lighter flywheel?&nbsp; What about =
Aluminum?<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:30 AM John Macartney &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]=
</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>I think =
I'm correct in saying one of the reasons for the heavier flywheel =
is<br>that the wet liner four engine was originally designed for the =
Standard<br>Vanguard with a two speed (low and high) gearbox with =
overdrive and also the<br>Ferguson tractor - both of which engines =
needed to develop shedloads of<br>torque at very low engine speeds. In =
both instances, much heavier flywheels<br>were required. Even if the =
early TR's could have got away with lighter<br>units, that would have =
meant having two different units. In those early post<br>WW2 days, iron =
and steel in the UK was in such short supply that having a<br>'common' =
flywheel across the range made economic sense from a production<br>cost =
viewpoint. Just an opinion<br><br>Jonmac<br><br>-----Original =
Message-----<br>From: Triumphs &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; On Behalf =
Of<br><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a><br>Sent: 23 July 2018 =
00:38<br>To: 'TERRY SMITH' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; Randall &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;;<br>Andrew Uprichard =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; George =
Haynes<br>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a><br>Subject: Re: [TR] =
Electric Fans: Something Different<br><br>I believe the TR2/3/4 was more =
or less &quot;balanced&quot; internally.&nbsp; The flywheel<br>weighs =
about 3x what it needs to.&nbsp; I believe they used the flywheel =
to<br>smooth it out.<br><br>Jonas Payne<br>PBR Consulting Services, =
LLC<br>702.882.6711<br><br><br><br>** <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a> **<br><br>Donate: <a =
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