Subject: Re: [TR] Electric Fans: Something Different

From: Rye Livingston <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 18:01:37 +0000 (GMT) MailServer1817B38.10000-1817B-0-9a6a56287ec5

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For what it's worth, I switched to the 9lb alloy flywheel on my TR3. =C2=A0=
I believe the stock one is 32 lbs. =C2=A0I don't notice any difference get=
ting started in 1st gear, and it does spin up nice and fast.=C2=A0=0A=0ARy=
e=0APH: 530-FIND-RYE=0A=0AOn Sep 10, 2018, at 06:26 AM, John Macartney <jo=
[email-masked]> wrote:=0A=0AI think I'm correct in saying one =
of the reasons for the heavier flywheel is=0Athat the wet liner four engin=
e was originally designed for the Standard=0AVanguard with a two speed (lo=
w and high) gearbox with overdrive and also the=0AFerguson tractor - both =
of which engines needed to develop shedloads of=0Atorque at very low engin=
e speeds. In both instances, much heavier flywheels=0Awere required. Even =
if the early TR's could have got away with lighter=0Aunits, that would hav=
e meant having two different units. In those early post=0AWW2 days, iron a=
nd steel in the UK was in such short supply that having a=0A'common' flywh=
eel across the range made economic sense from a production=0Acost viewpoin=
t. Just an opinion=0A=0AJonmac=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Tri=
umphs <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of=[email-masked]=0A=
Sent: 23 July 2018 00:38=0ATo: 'TERRY SMITH' <[email-masked]>; Randal=
l <[email-masked]>;=0AAndrew Uprichard <[email-masked]>; Ge=
orge Haynes=0A<[email-masked]>; [email-masked]=0ASubject: Re:=
 [TR] Electric Fans: Something Different=0A=0AI believe the TR2/3/4 was mo=
re or less "balanced" internally. The flywheel=0Aweighs about 3x what it n=
eeds to. I believe they used the flywheel to=0Asmooth it out.=0A=0AJonas P=
ayne=0APBR Consulting Services, LLC=0A702.882.6711=0A=0A=0A=0A** triumphs@=
autox.team.net **=0A=0ADonate: http://www.team.net/donate.html=0AArchive: =
ribe/Manage:=0Ahttp://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/john.macartn=
[email-masked]=0A=0A=0A---=0AThis email has been checked for viruses by =
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e: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/archive=0A=0A=
c.com=0A
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<html><body><div>For what it's worth, I switched to the 9lb alloy flywheel on my TR3. =
&nbsp;I believe the stock one is 32 lbs. &nbsp;I don't notice any differen=
ce getting started in 1st gear, and it does spin up nice and fast.&nbsp;</=
div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div class=3D"x-apple-signature">R=
ye<br>PH: 530-FIND-RYE</div><div><br>On Sep 10, 2018, at 06:26 AM, John Ma=
cartney &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"msg-quote"><div class=3D"_stretch"><sp=
an class=3D"body-text-content">I think I'm correct in saying one of the re=
asons for the heavier flywheel is<br>that the wet liner four engine was or=
iginally designed for the Standard<br>Vanguard with a two speed (low and h=
igh) gearbox with overdrive and also the<br>Ferguson tractor - both of whi=
ch engines needed to develop shedloads of<br>torque at very low engine spe=
eds. In both instances, much heavier flywheels<br>were required. Even if t=
he early TR's could have got away with lighter<br>units, that would have m=
eant having two different units. In those early post<br>WW2 days, iron and=
 steel in the UK was in such short supply that having a<br>'common' flywhe=
el across the range made economic sense from a production<br>cost viewpoin=
t. Just an opinion<br><br>Jonmac<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From=
: Triumphs &lt;[email-masked]&gt; On Behalf Of<br><a href=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">j=
[email-masked]</a><br>Sent: 23 July 2018 00:38<br>To: 'TERRY SMITH' &lt;=
[email-masked]&gt;; Randall &lt;[email-masked]&gt;;<br>Andrew Up=
richard &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; George Haynes<br>&lt;ghaynestr4@=
aol.com&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D"m=
ailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br>Subject: Re:=
 [TR] Electric Fans: Something Different<br><br>I believe the TR2/3/4 was =
more or less "balanced" internally. The flywheel<br>weighs about 3x what i=
t needs to. I believe they used the flywheel to<br>smooth it out.<br><br>J=
onas Payne<br>PBR Consulting Services, LLC<br>702.882.6711<br><br><br><br>=
** <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:triu=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> **<br><br>Donate: <a href=
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Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archive

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From: Rye Livingston <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 15:56:36 +0000 (GMT) MailServer1817B38.10000-1817B-0-9a6a56287ec5

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This is the flywheel I bought for my TR3A. =C2=A0=0Ahttps://www.bpnorthwes=
t.com/alloy-light-flywheel-tr2-tr3-tr4-tr4a.html=0AI've had no issues kill=
ing the car when starting in 1st gear, it's still very forgiving. And yes,=
 the engine spins up nice and quick powered with 87.5 big bore kit.=0A=0AR=
ye=0APH: 530-FIND-RYE=0A=0AOn Sep 11, 2018, at 05:23 AM, Randall <tr3drive=
[email-masked]> wrote:=0A=0Ado they make a lighter flywheel? What about Alumi=
num?=0A=0AFidanza offers an alloy flywheel (with a replaceable steel inser=
t for the=0Afriction surface). =0A=0AI've been running one for perhaps 15 =
years now; and I like the overall=0Aeffect. Makes the car much more nimble=
 at low speeds (mostly in 1st gear).=0A=0AHowever, it did have a very defi=
nite effect (for me) on launching the car=0A(initial acceleration from a s=
tandstill); behind two different engines. Not=0Ahard to cope with, but eve=
n after all these years I still have to think=0Aabout it to avoid killing =
the engine. And I still occasionally do kill it,=0Ausually when I'm just p=
uttering around and thinking about something else.=0A=0AAlso, it is delibe=
rately a very tight fit on the end of the crankshaft. You=0Acan use the bo=
lts to pull it into place (tightening each bolt a fraction of=0Aa turn at =
a time, in a criss-cross pattern), but I had to heat the flywheel=0A(with =
a propane torch) to get it off.=0A=0AJoe A. had some lightweight steel fly=
wheels made, but I think he sold them=0Aall and has no plans to make more.=
=0A=0AThere are instructions in the "Competition Preparation" manual for h=
ow to=0Alighten a stock flywheel. Any decent machine shop should be able t=
o do the=0Awork (but I assume will insist you sign a waiver so they can't =
be=0Aresponsible if the resulting unit breaks in operation).=0A=0AIIRC, th=
e post-50K flywheel is somewhat lighter than the earlier one. I=0Adon't kn=
ow how the TR4A flywheel compares to either of the early ones, but=0Ait mi=
ght be slightly lighter still. The 4A clutch is lighter (I'm also=0Ausing =
a 4A clutch).=0A=0AIt's worth noting, perhaps, that weight distribution is=
 important too; what=0Awe really want to minimize is rotational inertia. S=
o weight near the rim=0Ahas much more effect than weight near the center.=0A=
=0AYou also might want to think about what happens if, for example, you mi=
ss a=0Ashift and the flywheel breaks from centrifugal force. Serious racer=
s=0Ainstall extra shielding to (hopefully) protect them if the worst happe=
ns.=0A=0A-- Randall =0A=0A** [email-masked] **=0A=0ADonate: http:=
//www.team.net/donate.html=0AArchive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triump=
hs http://www.team.net/archive=0A=0AUnsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.=
net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]=0A
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<html><body><div>This is the flywheel I bought for my TR3A. &nbsp;</div><div><a href=3D=
"https://www.bpnorthwest.com/alloy-light-flywheel-tr2-tr3-tr4-tr4a.html">h=
ttps://www.bpnorthwest.com/alloy-light-flywheel-tr2-tr3-tr4-tr4a.html</a><=
/div><div>I've had no issues killing the car when starting in 1st gear, it=
's still very forgiving. And yes, the engine spins up nice and quick power=
ed with 87.5 big bore kit.</div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div c=
lass=3D"x-apple-signature">Rye<br>PH: 530-FIND-RYE</div><div><br>On Sep 11=
, 2018, at 05:23 AM, Randall &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br><br></d=
iv><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"msg-quote"><div class=3D"_=
stretch"><span class=3D"body-text-content"><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=
=3D"quoted-plain-text">do they make a lighter flywheel? What about Aluminu=
m?</blockquote><br>Fidanza offers an alloy flywheel (with a replaceable st=
eel insert for the<br>friction surface). <br><br>I've been running one for=
 perhaps 15 years now; and I like the overall<br>effect. Makes the car muc=
h more nimble at low speeds (mostly in 1st gear).<br><br>However, it did h=
ave a very definite effect (for me) on launching the car<br>(initial accel=
eration from a standstill); behind two different engines. Not<br>hard to c=
ope with, but even after all these years I still have to think<br>about it=
 to avoid killing the engine. And I still occasionally do kill it,<br>usua=
lly when I'm just puttering around and thinking about something else.<br><=
br>Also, it is deliberately a very tight fit on the end of the crankshaft.=
 You<br>can use the bolts to pull it into place (tightening each bolt a fr=
action of<br>a turn at a time, in a criss-cross pattern), but I had to hea=
t the flywheel<br>(with a propane torch) to get it off.<br><br>Joe A. had =
some lightweight steel flywheels made, but I think he sold them<br>all and=
 has no plans to make more.<br><br>There are instructions in the "Competit=
ion Preparation" manual for how to<br>lighten a stock flywheel. Any decent=
 machine shop should be able to do the<br>work (but I assume will insist y=
ou sign a waiver so they can't be<br>responsible if the resulting unit bre=
aks in operation).<br><br>IIRC, the post-50K flywheel is somewhat lighter =
than the earlier one. I<br>don't know how the TR4A flywheel compares to ei=
ther of the early ones, but<br>it might be slightly lighter still. The 4A =
clutch is lighter (I'm also<br>using a 4A clutch).<br><br>It's worth notin=
g, perhaps, that weight distribution is important too; what<br>we really w=
ant to minimize is rotational inertia. So weight near the rim<br>has much =
more effect than weight near the center.<br><br>You also might want to thi=
nk about what happens if, for example, you miss a<br>shift and the flywhee=
l breaks from centrifugal force. Serious racers<br>install extra shielding=
 to (hopefully) protect them if the worst happens.<br><br>-- Randall <br><=
br>** <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:t=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> **<br><br>Donate: <a h=
ref=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" data-mce-href=3D"http://www.team.n=
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div></blockquote></div></body></html>
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From: Rye Livingston <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 21:16:50 +0000 (GMT) MailServer1817B38.10000-1817B-0-9a6a56287ec5

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Yes. =C2=A0This is the one I'm using. =C2=A09.25 lbs=0Ahttps://www.bpnorth=
west.com/alloy-light-flywheel-tr2-tr3-tr4-tr4a.html?gclid=3DCj0KCQjwz93cBR=
CrARIsAEFbWsj3OmG6JQv4epS078OnynRYWg5_whlYNb8TFEq6wF0Mb9u-uMclXqgaArwaEALw=
_wcB=0A=0A=0ARye=0APH: 530-FIND-RYE=0A=0AOn Sep 11, 2018, at 01:48 PM, Pau=
l Dorsey <[email-masked]> wrote:=0A=0Ado they make a lighter flywheel?=
=C2=A0 What about Aluminum?=0APaul=0A=0AOn Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:30 AM Jo=
hn Macartney <[email-masked]> wrote:=0AI think I'm correct i=
n saying one of the reasons for the heavier flywheel is=0Athat the wet lin=
er four engine was originally designed for the Standard=0AVanguard with a =
two speed (low and high) gearbox with overdrive and also the=0AFerguson tr=
actor - both of which engines needed to develop shedloads of=0Atorque at v=
ery low engine speeds. In both instances, much heavier flywheels=0Awere re=
quired. Even if the early TR's could have got away with lighter=0Aunits, t=
hat would have meant having two different units. In those early post=0AWW2=
 days, iron and steel in the UK was in such short supply that having a=0A'=
common' flywheel across the range made economic sense from a production=0A=
cost viewpoint. Just an opinion=0A=0AJonmac=0A=0A-----Original Message----=
-=0AFrom: Triumphs <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of=0Ajpayne=
[email-masked]=0ASent: 23 July 2018 00:38=0ATo: 'TERRY SMITH' <terryrs@comcas=
t.net>; Randall <[email-masked]>;=0AAndrew Uprichard <auprichard@upri=
chard.net>; George Haynes=0A<[email-masked]>; [email-masked]=0A=
Subject: Re: [TR] Electric Fans: Something Different=0A=0AI believe the TR=
2/3/4 was more or less "balanced" internally.=C2=A0 The flywheel=0Aweighs =
about 3x what it needs to.=C2=A0 I believe they used the flywheel to=0Asmo=
oth it out.=0A=0AJonas Payne=0APBR Consulting Services, LLC=0A702.882.6711=
=0A=0A=0A=0A** [email-masked] **=0A=0ADonate: http://www.team.net=
/donate.html=0AArchive: http://www.team.net/archive=0AForums: http://www.t=
eam.net/forums=0AUnsubscribe/Manage:=0Ahttp://autox.team.net/mailman/optio=
ns/triumphs/[email-masked]=0A=0A=0A---=0AThis email has been=
 checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.=0Ahttps://www.avast.com/=
antivirus=0A=0A** [email-masked] **=0A=0ADonate: http://www.team.=
net/donate.html=0AArchive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs=C2=A0 ht=
tp://www.team.net/archive=0A=0AUnsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/m=
ailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]=0A** [email-masked] **=
=0A=0ADonate: http://www.team.net/donate.html=0AArchive: http://www.team.n=
et/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/archive=0A=0AUnsubscribe/Manage:=
 http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]=0A
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<html><body><div>Yes. &nbsp;This is the one I'm using. &nbsp;9.25 lbs</div><div><a hre=
f=3D"https://www.bpnorthwest.com/alloy-light-flywheel-tr2-tr3-tr4-tr4a.htm=
l?gclid=3DCj0KCQjwz93cBRCrARIsAEFbWsj3OmG6JQv4epS078OnynRYWg5_whlYNb8TFEq6=
wF0Mb9u-uMclXqgaArwaEALw_wcB">https://www.bpnorthwest.com/alloy-light-flyw=
heel-tr2-tr3-tr4-tr4a.html?gclid=3DCj0KCQjwz93cBRCrARIsAEFbWsj3OmG6JQv4epS=
078OnynRYWg5_whlYNb8TFEq6wF0Mb9u-uMclXqgaArwaEALw_wcB</a></div><div><br da=
ta-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div class=3D=
"x-apple-signature">Rye<br>PH: 530-FIND-RYE</div><div><br>On Sep 11, 2018,=
 at 01:48 PM, Paul Dorsey &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><=
div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"msg-quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">do=
 they make a lighter flywheel?&nbsp; What about Aluminum?<div>Paul</div></=
div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 a=
t 9:30 AM John Macartney &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
k" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">john.macartney@uk=
pips.org.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;" =
data-mce-style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding=
-left: 1ex;">I think I'm correct in saying one of the reasons for the heav=
ier flywheel is<br> that the wet liner four engine was originally designed=
 for the Standard<br> Vanguard with a two speed (low and high) gearbox wit=
h overdrive and also the<br> Ferguson tractor - both of which engines need=
ed to develop shedloads of<br> torque at very low engine speeds. In both i=
nstances, much heavier flywheels<br> were required. Even if the early TR's=
 could have got away with lighter<br> units, that would have meant having =
two different units. In those early post<br> WW2 days, iron and steel in t=
he UK was in such short supply that having a<br> 'common' flywheel across =
the range made economic sense from a production<br> cost viewpoint. Just a=
n opinion<br> <br> Jonmac<br> <br> -----Original Message-----<br> From: Tr=
iumphs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" data-mce-hre=
f=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]=
et</a>&gt; On Behalf Of<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" data-mce-=
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br> Sent: 23 July =
2018 00:38<br> To: 'TERRY SMITH' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;=
; Randall &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D"mail=
to:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;;<br> Andrew Uprichard =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:au=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; George Haynes<br=
> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:ghayne=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox=
.team.net" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">triumphs@autox=
.team.net</a><br> Subject: Re: [TR] Electric Fans: Something Different<br>=
 <br> I believe the TR2/3/4 was more or less "balanced" internally.&nbsp; =
The flywheel<br> weighs about 3x what it needs to.&nbsp; I believe they us=
ed the flywheel to<br> smooth it out.<br> <br> Jonas Payne<br> PBR Consult=
ing Services, LLC<br> 702.882.6711<br> <br> <br> <br> ** <a href=3D"mailto=
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