Subject: Re: [TR] 4 vs 6 vane water pump impellor

From: Darrell Walker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 06:19:03 -0700

On May 25, 2014, at 6:04 PM, Bob Danielson <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> Another group feels it pumps the water through the system too fast and the
radiator can't cool it properly so the car runs hotter.

Im only a software engineer, but Ive always been skeptical of this argument.
Sure, perhaps per unit volume less heat will be removed as the coolant moves
faster, but you will have more volume going through, so it should balance out.
Also, I think the larger differential between the coolant and outside air
temperature makes the heat exchange more efficient, so having the coolant move
faster would mean more area of the radiator would experience a larger
temperature differential.  I mean, if I pour boiling water really fast across
my arm it wont burn me, because it will be moving too fast?

Or this may indeed be a real concern, and a case where common sense doesnt
match the physics.

-Darrell

--
Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA

** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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From: "John Macartney" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 23:37:24 +0100

Randall wrote:

"Even then, it is going to be hard to say which is "better", since I've
never seen any evidence that lack of water flow is a problem with our
engines."

Far be it from me to challenge our technical guru on any technical aspect of
Standard-Triumph engineering standards, but I think there's a possibility
Randall that you may not have 'explored' as many Stag blocks as I have over
the years :)? I know you have a number of misgivings about the Stag V8 as a
whole and I respect you for that because you're entitled to your opinion.

However, it needs to be noted the Stag engine did have a number of serious
flaws on the Mk 1 model to do with cooling issues and these were:

A water pump that wasn't up to the job in terms of moving the amount of
water required of it. This was down to the Purchasing Department accepting a
smaller vaned pump was just as acceptable as the one specified by
Engineering - and for the simple fact it was cheaper.

A radiator that wasn't up to the job in terms of size or cooling capability.
Again, Purchasing entirely believed Coventry Radiator and Presswork in
foisting an untried "but just as good" unit.

Warped cylinder heads caused by overheated water adversely affecting the
head alloy that once again, dear old Purchasing insisted was acceptable
because it was cheaper than the grade laid down by Engineering and which in
the several prototype cars had never caused any trouble. They reverted to
the correct alloy with the Mk 2 and head warpage was mostly a thing of the
past.

Finally, we can point a very accusatory finger at Birmid Qualcast who was
the cylinder block foundry supplier (as they were for all other 4 and 6 pot
engines) for incompetence in entirely failing to ensure casting media and
foundry sand was by no means fully removed from all the blocks they
supplied. When Joe Pawlak and his team of Busted Knucklers at ISOA rebuilt
the engine for 'uncle jack' , Joe removed about half a pound of foundry
sand, bits of bent wire and solid sand core from that block. He gave it to
me as a present the following year when he came to the UK to stay with us
and commented that in his opinion it was that junk which had caused head
warpage on the car in the dim and distant past when they started tearing
down the unit. It's worth mentioning that I drove that car over 18,000 miles
in some pretty hot weather in 2009 and kept a detailed log of all top-ups,
oil changes and fuel used throughout the trip. It was in Tallahassee FL (and
at the start of the journey) where I added just three paper cups of water
from a hotel water fountain. This was because I'd discovered (and sorted) an
airlock in the heater - and I never had to touch it again until the last day
but one of the trip when I added another single cup in Grand Junction on the
way to Glenn Merrell's place near Denver. This was after Texas, Canadian
prairie, driving up Pike's Peak fairly rapidly, the Rockies and all down the
West Coast. Come to that, over that journey I only used a quart and a half
of oil in top ups, apart from oil changes at 3,000 mile intervals.

Cooling-wise and after his superb rebuild, 'uncle jack' was what all Stags
*should* have been from the outset - but so few ever were.

Jonmac

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From: "John Macartney" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 08:12:12 +0100

Randall wrote:
I've never seen any evidence that lack of water flow is a problem with our
engines.

Oh Fountainhead of such unquestionable knowledge, may I most respectfully
suggest you do a quick spool-back and exclude the Stag V8? :)
It was a mountain of trouble on the cooling side of things and mostly caused
by the Purchasing Department at STI over-riding Engineering in provisioning
water pumps, radiators and cylinder heads of a quality that was inconsistent
with Engineering spec  - and  all on the grounds of cost. As a result, the
people responsible were fired and justly so. The only other fly in the
ointment was the foundry Birmid Qualcast, who supplied the cylinder blocks
that still had part of the casting cores embedded deep inside them and no
small amount of foundry sand blocking coolant passages. Apart from those
'minor' issues which effectively killed the Stag in its first two years
(some say less) I don't think it had other key problems. It's bete-noire was
cooling. Period.

Cheers, Jonmac

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From: "dave n" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 08:26:31 -0500

thank you for that, John.  for those interested in the stag, wikipedia has
an interesting article that discusses some of the engineering goals and
missteps.  I found it rather interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_Stag

and, of course, Top Gear's excellent portrayal: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGJty_Rdp1U&feature=kp

-----Original Message----- 
From: John Macartney
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2014 5:37 PM
To: 'Randall' ; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [TR] 4 vs 6 vane water pump impellor

Randall wrote:

Jonmac

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From: Philip Ethier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 15:33:06 -0500

> -----Original Message----- From: John Macartney
> When Joe Pawlak and his team of Busted Knucklers at ISOA rebuilt
> sand, bits of bent wire and solid sand core from that block.

Joe showed it to me.  I should have photogrphed it.

> He gave it to

And I appreciate that!  I've never had a hint of overheating.

I had uncle jack out for a run on Wednesday to a club meeting and a small
car show in Bloomington.

He's showing a bit of an oil leak somewhere on the right side of the
engine, but no more than to show that he's English.  In the next month he
will be making a return trip to Thunder Bay for the Rendezvous, along the
scenic North Shore that Jonmac didn't get to see on his tour, having driven
the prairie from here to Winnipeg instead.

[email-masked] still works also
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2005 Subaru Legacy GT Limited, Regal Blue Pearl
http://www.mnautox.com