Subject: Re: [Tigers] Power Shifts

From: "Robert D. Hogan" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 09:59:20 -0500

In watching the You Tube video on Tom Patton's GT2 race at either Grattan or
Gingerman raceway, the speed of his shifts look like a sequential shifter.
Is there a quicker shifting alternative for road racing than using the
conventional clutch upshift / downshift?  

-----Original Message-----
From: Tigers [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Jay Laifman
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 7:27 PM
To: Tiger's Den
Subject: [Tigers] Power Shifts

Ok, I realize that there are differences of opinions, and they are not all
correct - but the holders usually believe their opinion is right.  My dad
brought me up saying that power shifts were not good, a quick way to burn
out a clutch, and not the fastest way to accelerate.  He said it was better
to match speeds, and not to put full power down before the clutch was
engaged.  By "power shift" I mean an upshift with the clutch in, where after
you've pushed the lever into the next gear, you floor it, then drop the
clutch.  I've been to countless car races and I can't say I've ever heard a
racer do that.  I've never done it.

So my sister was over this last weekend with her husband and son.  The son
was showing off his new Ford SUV that he swapped out the automatic and
dropped in a manual.  It was some cool work, and he should be proud.
However, when he took my son for a drive, he did full power shifts -
bragging about getting rubber even in 3rd gear.  When they came back, he
showed my son some You Tube videos of guys doing the same.  My
brother-in-law who has some amateur drag racing in his past, just chuckled
and didn't suggest anything was wrong with it.

What do people think about this?
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From: Owain Lloyd <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 12:31:43 -0500

David Higgins once told me he never uses the clutch except for starting
off.  Even with a synchromesh box.  This was several years ago and I since
have started doing that a lot in some cars. If the engine is responsive and
the gears close together and you are intimate with the car it's quite easy.
  Depending on the box, it's often possible to shift extremely quickly.

Of course, dog boxes are designed for that and you just bang the gears.
I'd be surprised if Tom Patton's car doesn't have a dog box.  If you've
only ever experienced synchromesh boxes, a dog box is quite a shock.
Sounds and feels like the diff is going to fall out every time you shift.
It's a wonderful mechanical feeling!

On Sunday, November 2, 2014, Ron Fraser <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Robert
>         If you watch races from the UK and Australia you will see
> sequential
> gear box shifting.  The shifter is pushed forward or pulled back to change
> gears.  I believe some of those racing gear boxes do not require clutching
> just a blip of the throttle is enough to change gears.
>
>         I once saw a magazine article that put a round plate on an American
> 4 speed with cams and slots to make it into a sequential type shifter.
> This
> seemed too complicated to be race worthy but who knows.
>
> Tom Patton probably has a short throw shifter set up.  I don't believe
> sequential gear boxes are allowed in GT2 but I'm not up on the rules for
> that class.
>
> Ron Fraser
>
> From: Tigers [mailto:[email-masked] <javascript:;>] On
> Behalf Of Robert D.
> Hogan
> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 9:59 AM
> To: 'Tiger's Den'
> Subject: Re: [Tigers] Power Shifts
>
>
> [email-masked] <javascript:;>
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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From: Chris Thompson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2014 13:04:03 -0500

Exactly right.  On my Formula Ford, with a Hewland non-synchro 
transmission, the only time I use the clutch is when starting out in 1st 
gear, upshifting and downshifting.  Although I have to disagree about it 
sounding like the diff is going to fall out.  With proper rev-matching, 
everything is smooth as silk.  It becomes second nature after a while...

[email-masked]

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From: Sandy <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2014 11:55:39 -0800

I have a dog box in my Mustang (Tex/GForce T101A) and I can tell you 
that it is nothing short of amazing on the track. It does not mater what 
you do if you pull that handle it will shift (up or down). I had pulled 
out a Tremec TKO which was poor shifting at high RPM. When I first hit 
the track with it and shifted I thought I broke something. They CLUNK 
with/without the clutch and shift like lightning.   Sorta' like an old 
outboard engine going into gear... In any case I'm sure 2 things that 
don't like the transmission, the thrust bearing and the rear end!

And just like Owain said if feels like something is going to break, but 
the trade off is shifting a SBF past 7500 RPM only operator error is 
left for chance :)

The gear whine is cool too if you have straight cut gears. Used to be 
plenty of T101A from NASCAR and they were a good buy as many were sold 
by Tex/GForce  as rebuilt and you could pick any ratio and came with 
shifters. They I have a spare and thought about the potential in the 
tiger but they are too wide and big for the tiger, would be a hand full 
but would be very cool.

Sandy

On 11/2/2014 9:31 AM, Owain Lloyd wrote:
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]

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From: Owain Lloyd <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 15:17:12 -0500

i suppose the level of the 'thunk' will depend on the ratios and the rear
end.  but with a 5+:1 rear end with tight LSD in a rally car, a few hundred
Nm of torque and sticky tarmac tires, the drive shafts are subjected to
considerable torque going into 2nd and 3rd. you'd have to be oblivious to
not feel some mechanical sympathy!

on a related subject, I remember there being some source of better half
shafts for the tiger.  I'm getting concerned for mine with the new motor
and would like to preemptively upgrade them over the winter.   any
recommendations?

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 2:55 PM, Sandy <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I have a dog box in my Mustang (Tex/GForce T101A) and I can tell you that
> it is nothing short of amazing on the track. It does not mater what you do
> if you pull that handle it will shift (up or down). I had pulled out a
> Tremec TKO which was poor shifting at high RPM. When I first hit the track
> with it and shifted I thought I broke something. They CLUNK with/without
> the clutch and shift like lightning.   Sorta' like an old outboard engine
> going into gear... In any case I'm sure 2 things that don't like the
> transmission, the thrust bearing and the rear end!
>
> the trade off is shifting a SBF past 7500 RPM only operator error is left
> for chance :)
>
> plenty of T101A from NASCAR and they were a good buy as many were sold by
> Tex/GForce  as rebuilt and you could pick any ratio and came with shifters.
> They I have a spare and thought about the potential in the tiger but they
> are too wide and big for the tiger, would be a hand full but would be very
> cool.
>
> Sandy
>
>
>

[email-masked]

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From: "Rense, Mark (GE, Appl & Light)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 18:05:50 +0000

For those of you that wish to experience faster and better shifting without
the expense of installing a "crashbox" non-syncro transmission might I suggest
converting to the Hurst shifter kit. I have one in my high-revving 289 car and
it is not only quicker-shifting it is more precise and definitely more fun to
drive. The throws are short and the gate is tight so you will have form new
muscle memories to be proficient. My stroker car has the normal Toploader/Ford
shifter mechanism and it feels like driving a bus compared to the Hurst. You
can buy the kit from:

Dan Williams Toploaders (scroll down)
http://toploadertransmissions.com/toploaderinfo.html

There is also a shifter that looks just like a Tiger short shifter available.

Here is one kit I found online:
https://hurstshiftersonline.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=548&idca
tegory=65#details
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