Subject: Re: [Tigers] Thinking Ahead...

From: "Smit, Theo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 14:41:45 +0000

For a sub-2-liter engine, the Honda S2000 engine might cut it... You would
need to look a how much higher you could safely push the redline to get more
than the stock 240 hp though.
The mx-3 v6 at 1.8 liters could be interesting as well as the JDM inline-6
engines from Nissan. More valves equals more breathing potential...
Theo

On 2013-07-26, at 8:15 AM, "Larry Mayfield" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Considerations for a future year motors for the Salt Flats car. Just some
thoughts and interest questions...
>
> What are choices for a twin or sohc  engine just under 3 liters? all motor
ideas (ie no power adders). Current record is 200.xx
>
> What are the choices for a just under 2 liter 4 banger?
>
> Anyone interested in building an Alpine motor, with transmission, for the
salt car?  It will have to be a goer, lol...  current record is 178 and
change.... motor only, no blower or NOS.
>
> Having just spent a box full of money on this motor, if you wanna play
anything that is to be built needs to have readily available speed parts!
Custom is NOT the way to save money, lol...
>
> mayf
>
> --
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> drmayf
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> 204.913 mph flying mile
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From: Owain Lloyd <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 10:46:39 -0400

For the n/a 4cly 2.0 either a Millington or a BDG would be my top choices.
  Otherwise a BMW S14 can make over 300hp but might not be cheaper at those
outputs.

All fantastic engines but not cheap.

On the cheap side you could get close to 300 from a pinto 2.0.

Are you allowed a factory blower?  R53 mini engine can make 300hp from a
1.6 very cheaply.

The swedes make huge power from the Volvo 4 bangers....

3.0 takes a bit more thought.   Lots of choices.  Datsun 2.8s are well
developed but I know little about them.   I'm building a merc m110 twin
cam, a shade under 3 litres, capable of 300 hp at present but its heavily
modified.

On Friday, July 26, 2013, Larry Mayfield wrote:

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From: "Smit, Theo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 14:50:14 +0000

How about chain-driving two 1000cc motorcycle engines together? Out of the box
you'd be near 300 hp. It would sound completely awesome as well.
Theo

[email-masked]

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From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 11:08:10 -0400

Best source for parts
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/advcat.asp?CategoryID=ENGINE

Ford 2000cc  with 285hp
http://supertouring.net/ford-volvo-btcc-saug-rennmotor-race-engine-ca-2000cc-285bhp/

2.0 zetec with 250hp
http://www.pdfgeni.org/fd/Ford-Zetec-engine-pdf.html

Engine tuning tips
http://books.google.com/books?id=p2L-RCMsWJoC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=ford+2000cc+race+engine&source=bl&ots=S47pVW5aXP&sig=dmX4dlFiHtpljT2w-pjtuDaNNOg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G4vyUfHfApKI9gTy9YCgAw&ved=0CFkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=ford%202000cc%20race%20engine&f=false

Michael Shortt

On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Smit, Theo <[email-masked]>wrote:

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From: Owain Lloyd <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 11:15:01 -0400

Ah yes - of course the Zetec would be best bang for buck.   280hp is cheap
as chips from a Zetec.

On Friday, July 26, 2013, [email-masked] wrote:

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From: "Teepen, Jere" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 11:44:45 -0400

What class are you thinking of running the car in?

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Larry Mayfield
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 7:15 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Tigers] Thinking Ahead...

Anyone interested in building an Alpine motor, with transmission, for the salt
car?  It will have to be a goer, lol...  current record is 178 and change....
motor only, no blower or NOS.

mayf

[email-masked]

---

From: "Sigma Engineering" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 14:10:08 -0400

I have a bone stock 1996 2.0 zetec sitting in my garage....only 250 miles 
since new.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Owain Lloyd" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Thinking Ahead...

> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]

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---

From: "Thomas Witt" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 19:39:08 -0700

>>>On the cheap side you could get close to 300 from a pinto 2.0.<<<

I've got one of those sitting on the patio from when I put a 2.3 - turbo in 
my Pinto.  Wow, 300 HP. The 2.0 was pretty gutless behind a C-4 in stock 
tune.  Buddy Ingersoll sure knew how to get power out of the 2.3 with a 
turbo. 
_______________________________________________

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From: Owain Lloyd <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:17:00 -0400

Certainly gutless in stock form,  however.....   Read Vizard - ford SOHC.
 That was published in '83.  Times have moved on even further since.   The
pinto, being used in the rs2000, is still very actively tuned in Europe,
where the escort continues to reign supreme, being the only classic capable
of beating a modern rally car.

(Ps if you want to get rid of that stock 2.0, I may be interested....)

On Friday, July 26, 2013, Thomas Witt wrote:

> I've got one of those sitting on the patio from when I put a 2.3 - turbo
> in my Pinto.  Wow, 300 HP. The 2.0 was pretty gutless behind a C-4 in stock
> turbo. ______________________________**_________________
>
> [email-masked]
>

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From: "Mark Rense" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 09:54:32 -0400

The latest M-B AMG sedan is the "little" CLA45, I has a two liter turbo four
rated at 355 hp. That's 135 more than my old SVO Mustang's turbo 2.3, which
was pretty hot snot in '86!

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Larry Mayfield
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:15 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Tigers] Thinking Ahead...

Considerations for a future year motors for the Salt Flats car. Just 
some thoughts and interest questions...

What are choices for a twin or sohc  engine just under 3 liters? all 
motor ideas (ie no power adders). Current record is 200.xx

Anyone interested in building an Alpine motor, with transmission, for 
the salt car?  It will have to be a goer, lol...  current record is 178 
and change.... motor only, no blower or NOS.

Having just spent a box full of money on this motor, if you wanna play 
anything that is to be built needs to have readily available speed 
parts!  Custom is NOT the way to save money, lol...

mayf

[email-masked]

---

From: Cullen McCann <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 09:12:36 -0500

Mayf,

I am not well versed but I have seen BIG power made out of the gm "ecotec"
that was around a couple of decades ago. I dont know if a non-ford motor is
even an idea. BLASPHEMY!  ;)

They are a variable valve timing DOHC inline 4... And it's my understanding
that there is gobs of aftermarket support and components available. I've heard
of people making hundreds of horsepower out of them...and there is a family of
motors that is AT 2.0 liters.... Not sure about under. Haven't checked that
much. But it came to mind as a successful solution in that size.

Here is an article

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0907_gm_ecotec_bolt_ons/photo_
01.html

Cullen

Sent from my iPad

> mayf
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]
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---

From: Larry Mayfield <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 07:26:14 -0700

Ok, folk. Somehow it seems that the note that the next generation of 
motor(s) for the salt flats car has to be all motor. That means no 
blowers, no turbos, no NOS, just motor.  Can be a really high tech 
sucker, but NO power adders.

Now, some have mentioned the power output of the 2.3 liter Pinto 
derivative motors. I have a friend in Detroit who ran a Merkur with one 
that he spared no expense to build and tune which put out 750 reliable 
HP.  Of course that was turbocharged and he ran two intercoolers as 
well. The first one was the conventional ice water air and the second 
one he used NOS to cool the already chilled air even more.  It pushed 
the Merkur to a 225 or so record.

I do not want to run power adders for the next gen motors for the 
sunbeam salt car...

mayf

[email-masked]

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From: "Mark Rense" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:37:12 -0400

Dr Mayf,
How about listing ALL the class restrictions?
- max number of cylinders allowed
- max number valves per cylinder
- cam shaft configuration limitations (OHV, OHC, DOHC, L-head, pocket
valve)?
- type of fuel allowed (Pump gas, 110 Sunoco, whale oil)?
- any other internal component limitations (rod/crank material)?
- induction limitations (FI, Carbs, DFI, wetted wick)?

Assuming four cylinders, I still vote for the Honda F20C from the earlier
S2000 if all its OEM trickery is allowable. Close to 300 hp with cams,
injectors and bigger throttle body. More if cubic dollars (bucks to the
third) are thrown at the heads. This engine tolerates over 700 hp on
turbo/NO2, so you know it is a stout platform. Lots of YouTube idiocy with
these engines.

You will not get that power level from a normally-aspirated Pinto/Capri
engine.

Bugz

PS As to oils, see who can offer you a sponsorship, most racing synthetics
today are superb. When I raced professionally we ran Redline oils and Wix
filters. Good stuff.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 10:26 AM

mayf

[email-masked]

---

From: Larry Mayfield <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 09:52:42 -0700

Ok, the basic restrictions to engines are:
1. Motors are blown, unblown This next genb is UNBLOWN
2. Fuels are either Fuel, ie nitometnhane, alcohol,  NOS, gasoline 
Propane, electrical... NExt gen motor is GASOLINE. No limitations on 
octane ratings but has to be purchased fromt eh event gas sup-plier IF 
running for a record
3. Displacement are F which is 123.00 - 183.99 cid or G which is 93.00 
to 122.99 cid.
4. Any cam or valve arrangements.
5. Any compression ratio
6. Car class is Modified Sports. I.e. no t a production car. Car has to 
retain stock body panels from cowl to taillights which also have to be 
run...
7. Run any internals for the engine you want. But, as I said custom junk 
is expensive.
8. No induction limitations since this is for a modified sports class.

So, summary is no blower, no turbo, no NOS, gasoline only, any 
compression ratio, any number of cams and valves, any crank any rods, 
just has to fit int he displacement class (and they check..if within 3% 
of the upper or lower limits the have you tear down the motor right 
there to physically measure the dimensions).

So, I had already summarized the rules for everyone.

let me repeat though. this is not s shouting match foe every body to see 
just how wild they can get with exotic motors for me to build.  I 
already built two motors and this last one, even with parts help (and my 
age),  was expensive as all get out.  Now I am hoping for somebody else 
to pitch in...  If all the parts had to have been purchased new for this 
260 motor, it would be really expensive, lol.  Thanks to lots of folk, I 
got real parts help on this one...

mayf

[email-masked]

---

From: Jay Laifman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 10:03:09 -0700

As I understand it, the 2 liter overhead cam engine in the Pinto and Capri was
really a German designed engine for higher revs, and the 2.3 liter was based
on a pick up truck engine, and that it was not a bigger version of the German
one.

My son has an S2000.  That's the nicest engine, ever.  It was the highest hp
per liter of any production car when it was first made.  When it crosses into
that magical area of VTEC, the noise it makes is unlike any car - pure F1, a
banshie let out of Hell.  And if that's not enough for you, there are turbos
and superchargers available that really pump it up.

If I had a clean slate right now, with no ties to Sunbeams, a Lotus/Caterham 7
with an S2000 would be unmatched.

> I've got one of those sitting on the patio from when I put a 2.3 - turbo in
my Pinto.  Wow, 300 HP. The 2.0 was pretty gutless behind a C-4 in stock tune.
Buddy Ingersoll sure knew how to get power out of the 2.3 with a turbo.
_______________________________________________
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---

From: Jay Laifman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 10:05:24 -0700

I might add that the S2000 is routinely raced.  And it has been a top winner
in SCCA Autocross for years.  So, there should be lots of resources out there
for performance mods and racing upgrades.

On Jul 28, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Larry Mayfield wrote:

> 2. Fuels are either Fuel, ie nitometnhane, alcohol,  NOS, gasoline Propane,
electrical... NExt gen motor is GASOLINE. No limitations on octane ratings but
has to be purchased fromt eh event gas sup-plier IF running for a record
> 3. Displacement are F which is 123.00 - 183.99 cid or G which is 93.00 to
122.99 cid.
> 6. Car class is Modified Sports. I.e. no t a production car. Car has to
retain stock body panels from cowl to taillights which also have to be run...
> 7. Run any internals for the engine you want. But, as I said custom junk is
expensive.
> So, summary is no blower, no turbo, no NOS, gasoline only, any compression
ratio, any number of cams and valves, any crank any rods, just has to fit int
he displacement class (and they check..if within 3% of the upper or lower
limits the have you tear down the motor right there to physically measure the
dimensions).
> let me repeat though. this is not s shouting match foe every body to see
just how wild they can get with exotic motors for me to build.  I already
built two motors and this last one, even with parts help (and my age),  was
expensive as all get out.  Now I am hoping for somebody else to pitch in...
If all the parts had to have been purchased new for this 260 motor, it would
be really expensive, lol.  Thanks to lots of folk, I got real parts help on
this one...

[email-masked]