Subject: Re: [Tigers] Tiger charging normally until you turn headlights on

From: "Smit, Theo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 22:08:45 +0000

First check that your ammeter is working at all and that it's wired properly.
With the ignition off, turn on the headlights. You should show about 10 amps
discharge. The horns should also draw about 6-10 amps if they're adjusted
properly, IIRC. The spec current draw for each horn is given in the factory
manual.

It does sound like your regulator isn't doing the job. For proper charging,
the ignition system voltage needs to be about 13.5 to 14 volts when the engine
is running; you can check this with a voltmeter. Turning on the lights should
not cause a significant voltage drop. I'd expect to see a couple of amps of
charge current even at idle, and more immediately after you've started the
engine. If it won't charge unless you rev the engine, maybe check the
generator brushes?

If you have sudden cutouts then maybe something isn't grounded properly. Check
the ground connections on the engine to chassis, from the generator to the
chassis, and from the battery to the chassis. Are your headlights operating at
full brightness? When the engine cuts out, do the headlights suddenly dim?
This might be hard to check without a helper...

Theo

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:tigers-
> [email-masked]] On Behalf Of Tiger Man
> Sent: June 6, 2013 3:59 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: [Tigers] Tiger charging normally until you turn headlights on
>
> Hi all,
>
> I thought I would mention this one to the list, make sure I am going in
> the right direction.  If I start my tiger and run the RPM's up, My amp
> meter shows about a 5 Amp charge (until the battery is charged back
> up).  If I turn my headlights on (with the RPM's up) it shows about a 3
> Amp discharge.  The other interesting side effect is while driving
> around with the headlights on, the car cuts out dramatically but
> momentarily... like the Pertronix ign module is browning out or
> something?

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From: "Jerry Mo Christopherson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 17:21:12 -0500

I'm pretty sure the Pertronix needs a solid 12 volts.  If you are
discharging with lights on you may not be getting full 12 to the ignition.

Jerry Christopherson
9473187

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Tiger Man
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 4:59 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Tigers] Tiger charging normally until you turn headlights on

Hi all,

I thought I would mention this one to the list, make sure I am going in the
right direction.  If I start my tiger and run the RPM's up, My amp meter
shows about a 5 Amp charge (until the battery is charged back up).  If I
turn my headlights on (with the RPM's up) it shows about a 3 Amp discharge.
The other interesting side effect is while driving around with the
headlights on, the car cuts out dramatically but momentarily... like the
Pertronix ign module is browning out or something?

Anyway, since it charges at all, I assume that means that the generator
works, and that I should go look at the Voltage regulator first, and if that
checks out, then move on to check the generator.  I think I still have a
used spare generator on the shelf.  Will the local parts houses even know
how to test those correctly anymore if I bring one down to them.

Its been alot of years since I have had to work on a generator problem, so
thought I would try to do the research on them.  I did run across the
comment about polarity/charge on the charging system, especially one that
has sat
around for a while.   I had forgotten or never knew that, but since I am
getting charge from my current system, I am more concerned with that on any
generator I might have sitting on the shelf.

Just thought it was odd that a discharge condition would cause the Pertronix
module to brown out occasionally.  Wanted to make sure that I shouldn't be
looking at lighting system draw to ensure that don't have something weird
that is actually causing a massive draw and just maxing out the
Generator/regulator.

Thanks,
Steve

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From: "Lynn" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 16:34:19 -0600

That was going to be my suggestion as well

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Jerry Mo Christopherson
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 4:21 PM
To: 'Tiger Man'; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Tiger charging normally until you turn headlights on

Jerry Christopherson
9473187

-----Original Message-----

Hi all,

Thanks,
Steve

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---

From: Douglas Lyle <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 15:48:16 -0700 (PDT)

The Pertronix will operate fine until it dips below 6 volts.

Doug Lyle
________________________________
 From: Lynn <[email-masked]>
To: 'Jerry Mo
Christopherson' <[email-masked]>; 'Tiger Man'
<[email-masked]>; [email-masked] 
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013
3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Tiger charging normally until you turn
headlights on

-----Original
Message-----
From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Jerry Mo Christopherson
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 4:21 PM
To: 'Tiger Man'; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Tiger charging normally until you turn headlights on
I'm pretty sure the Pertronix needs a solid 12 volts.  If you are
discharging
with lights on you may not be getting full 12 to the ignition.

Jerry
Christopherson
9473187

-----Original Message-----
From:
[email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf
Of Tiger Man
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 4:59 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Tigers] Tiger charging normally until you turn headlights on

Hi
all,

I thought I would mention this one to the list, make sure I am going in
the
right direction.  If I start my tiger and run the RPM's up, My amp meter
shows about a 5 Amp charge (until the battery is charged back up).  If I
turn
my headlights on (with the RPM's up) it shows about a 3 Amp discharge.
The
other interesting side effect is while driving around with the
headlights on,
the car cuts out dramatically but momentarily... like the
Pertronix ign module
is browning out or something?

Anyway, since it charges at all, I assume that
means that the generator
works, and that I should go look at the Voltage
regulator first, and if that
checks out, then move on to check the generator. 
I think I still have a
used spare generator on the shelf.  Will the local
parts houses even know
how to test those correctly anymore if I bring one down
to them.

Its been alot of years since I have had to work on a generator
problem, so
thought I would try to do the research on them.  I did run across
the
comment about polarity/charge on the charging system, especially one that
has sat
around for a while.   I had forgotten or never knew that, but since I
am
getting charge from my current system, I am more concerned with that on any
generator I might have sitting on the shelf.

Just thought it was odd that a
discharge condition would cause the Pertronix
module to brown out
occasionally.  Wanted to make sure that I shouldn't be
looking at lighting
system draw to ensure that don't have something weird
that is actually causing
a massive draw and just maxing out the
Generator/regulator.

Thanks,
Steve

[email-masked]

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Unsubscribe:
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---

From: "Tiger Man" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 23:29:32 -0600 FILETIME=[0678CD40:01CE6340]

Thanks Jerry,

I suppose I should have looked it up to start with, but I found a 
troubleshooting sheet from Pertronix that claims 8V is the lower limit.

While I think it would be tough to get the voltage that low in the system 
with a simple discharge, I am wondering if I simply left the ballast 
resistor on when I installed the Pertronix module.  That would drop the 
observed voltage a couple of Volts from what the rest of the car sees.

Might be interesting to remove the resistor and see what happens before I 
fix the charging system.

I think this cutout problem will go away when I fix the charging system 
problem, but it would be worrysome to think that if you lost your generator 
on a drive home at night if the pertronix module is going to stop the car 
from running.  You would hope that you could limp home as long as you didn't 
live too far away, just like you would with a points based car.

Thanks,
Steve

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jerry Mo Christopherson" <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 4:21 PM
To: "'Tiger Man'" <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [Tigers] Tiger charging normally until you turn headlights on

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---

From: "Tiger Man" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 23:53:36 -0600 FILETIME=[6334DAD0:01CE6343]

Thanks Theo,

I didn't think to check what the headlights draw (according to the gauge) 
when the car isn't running.  But that would be a quick way to get a rough 
calibration on the gauge.  I'll have to do that next time I am out in the 
garage.

But even if the gauge isn't exceptionally accurate, it does show me charge 
vs discharge, so I know I have a problem.  Its just odd since I am now more 
use to alternator systems that generally either work, or don't work.  Don't 
think I have ever had a charging system problem before where it 'sort of' 
works

I beginning to wonder if I left my ballast resistor on when I connected the 
pertronix, so that might explain a larger voltage drop at the ignition than 
I could normally imagine from just a charging system problem.

I suppose it would be smart no matter what the outcome is of any of the 
problems to just go ahead and check various grounds on the car, because 
weird grounds do cause strange problems.

Sometimes I spend too much time thinking, Why would it do that, rather than 
just go make sure things are right (like grounds)

Thanks for help
Steve

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Smit, Theo" <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 4:08 PM
To: "Tiger Man" <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [Tigers] Tiger charging normally until you turn headlights on

> First check that your ammeter is working at all and that it's wired 
> properly. With the ignition off, turn on the headlights. You should show 
> about 10 amps discharge. The horns should also draw about 6-10 amps if 
> they're adjusted properly, IIRC. The spec current draw for each horn is 
> given in the factory manual.
>
> It does sound like your regulator isn't doing the job. For proper 
> charging, the ignition system voltage needs to be about 13.5 to 14 volts 
> when the engine is running; you can check this with a voltmeter. Turning 
> on the lights should not cause a significant voltage drop. I'd expect to 
> see a couple of amps of charge current even at idle, and more immediately 
> after you've started the engine. If it won't charge unless you rev the 
> engine, maybe check the generator brushes?
>
> If you have sudden cutouts then maybe something isn't grounded properly. 
> Check the ground connections on the engine to chassis, from the generator 
> to the chassis, and from the battery to the chassis. Are your headlights 
> operating at full brightness? When the engine cuts out, do the headlights 
> suddenly dim? This might be hard to check without a helper...
>
> Theo
>
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole 
> use of the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be 
> confidential and/or legally privileged. If you have received this email in 
> error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the message. Any 
> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this communication (including 
> attachments) by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. 
> Thank you.

[email-masked]

---

From: "Smit, Theo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 13:28:25 +0000

Hi Steve,
With your Pertronix system, whether or not you use the ballast resistor should
depend on the coil you have. If you're using a stock or stock-replacement type
of coil then you need to use the ballast resistor. But you can wire it as
shown here:
http://members.shaw.ca/tsmit/tachmod/tachmod3.html#pe

which will still provide 12V to the Pertronix module as well as keeping the
original ballast resistor wiring and starter bypass for the ballast resistor
in place.

On the ammeter, also check that it does read zero when everything is off -
otherwise your charge/discharge measurements won't be quite right.

Good luck,
Theo

[email-masked]

---

From: Tiger Man <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 14:04:10 -0600

Just thought I would post a followup in case anyone ever has a similar problem
and goes searching through the emails.    And also to thank people on the
board for the help.

 I checked the ammeter, and it zero and calibration seemed very good
(ignition off I think headlights showed about 10-12 amp discharge).

As several people mentioned to me on the board, the petronix is particular
about its voltage.  Even though there are docs that say the 12V petronix will
work down to 8V, the tech at pertonix mentioned that the module is very
sensitive to low voltage, although he didn't comment on what 'low voltage'
meant  But just a partial discharge due to poor performing charging system and
the headlights seems a bit oversensitive.  I guess the module still worked,
but having it cut out abruptly at night for a second is enough to make your
heart stop for a second as well.  I believe I still have a set of regular
points hanging around in the car in case it ever dies on me completely.

I found a new voltage regulator locally in stock in one (and only one) local
auto zone.  Most of the rest of the stores did not perform the parts lookup
correctly online or even in the store there were alot of suggestions that
weren't even close (used a 64 v8 falcon as my target vehicle).  While looking
at it and where it needed to go, I was thinking that the screw nearest the
firewall was going to be a real pain and thought I would notch the voltage
regulator so I didn't have to take the screw all the way out next time.
Taking the old one out, and guess what the previous owner had thought the same
thing and that old one was notched and much easier to slide out.

Put the voltage regulator on the car, and followed the instructions to ensure
polarization of the generator (field wire off and touch to bat terminal I
believe, which is ford specific) and then fired the car up, and it charges
great and the headlight no longer bring it into discharge, and the car no
longer misses.

So glad it was such a simple fix, but I think this is the first time I have
seen a regulator that 'sort of' worked, I've always had them fail completely
when they fail.

Thanks,
Steve

> > I thought I would mention this one to the list, make sure I am going
> > in the right direction.  If I start my tiger and run the RPM's up, My
> > amp meter shows about a 5 Amp charge (until the battery is charged
> > back up).  If I turn my headlights on (with the RPM's up) it shows
> > about a 3 Amp discharge.
> > headlights on, the car cuts out dramatically but momentarily... like
> > the Pertronix ign module is browning out or something?
> >
> > Anyway, since it charges at all, I assume that means that the
> > generator works, and that I should go look at the Voltage regulator
> > first, and if that checks out, then move on to check the generator.  I
> > think I still have a used spare generator on the shelf.  Will the
> > local parts houses even know how to test those correctly anymore if I
> > bring one down to them.
> >
> > problem, so thought I would try to do the research on them.  I did run
> > across the comment about polarity/charge on the charging system,
> > especially one that has sat
> > getting charge from my current system, I am more concerned with that
> > on any generator I might have sitting on the shelf.
> >
> > Just thought it was odd that a discharge condition would cause the
> > Pertronix module to brown out occasionally.  Wanted to make sure that
> > I shouldn't be looking at lighting system draw to ensure that don't
> > have something weird that is actually causing a massive draw and just
> > maxing out the Generator/regulator.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steve

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