Subject: [Tigers] Clutch - DANG IT!!!!!

From: Jay Laifman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 20:19:04 -0700

I just did a search in the archives and found that my dad did put DOT 5 in the
clutch.

Ok, so what do I do?  Rebuild the master and clutch?
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From: Gary Winblad <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 03:41:42 +0000 (UTC)

My DOT5 was yellow.  

----- Original Message -----
From: Jay Laifman <[email-masked]>
To: Thomas Witt <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Sent: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 03:39:57 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Clutch - DANG IT!!!!!

Thanks for the comments.  On the plus side, that old post of my dad's that I
found where he said he used DOT 5, he said that he had not done it to the
brakes yet.  I thought DOT 5 was supposed to be purple to avoid this.  Is that
not true?  Can it be clear too?

>>>> Ok, so what do I do?  Rebuild the master and clutch?<<<
> I think so. That way you will know the rubber is fresh. There is also
another way of looking at this.  Better the clutch only now, than the whole
brake system getting DOT 3/4 later. Imaging the agony of that! Now you know
better and will do the right thing. At least you got the lesser of the hard
lessons.
>
> Tom _______________________________________________
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From: " Ron Fraser" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 07:21:13 -0400

Jay
	I have seen purple and yellow tint in Dot 5.  I think that is a
requirement for Dot 5 to have a tint.

	Yes, you need to go through the Master, the down pipe and the Slave
to clear all the contaminated fluid from the system.  I'm not sure if
alcohol will flush out Dot 5; it works with the glycol based brake fluids.
You may need to use lacquer thinner or BrakeKleen to flush the Dot 5.
Inspect all the parts and rebuild.  

Ron Fraser

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Jay Laifman
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2013 11:19 PM
To: Tiger's Den
Subject: [Tigers] Clutch - DANG IT!!!!!

I just did a search in the archives and found that my dad did put DOT 5 in
the clutch.

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 10:24:20 -0400 (EDT)

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but for most hydraulic clutch systems, 
 DOT 3 is your best bet...at least according to the transmission experts I 
know.  The thinking is DOT 3 has less of the additives which will permeate 
the o-rings  and cause them to swell. Once they swell, they are likely to 
roll in  friction and wear more quickly. 

In a message dated 4/22/2013 4:21:56 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
[email-masked] writes:

Jay

Ron Fraser

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 12:03:17 -0400 (EDT)

The additives in Castrol LMA supposedly soften the o-rings (even EPDM) and  
allow them to roll. DOT 3 is commonly considered a better bet...at least 
that's  what we run in the Formula Fords and other race cars using the Girling 
MC.

In a message dated 4/22/2013 8:08:01 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
[email-masked] writes:

Jay,
I went through some of my SAE journals a while back to look  for the real
skinny on brake fluids. DOT 5 is silicon based and is not  recommended for 
open
systems like those found on vintage cars. The DOT 5 is  non-hygroscopic so 
it
will not absorb moisture but since our systems are  not sealed moisture 
gets in
and it collects in the low spots of the system,  this will cause piston
corrosion in calipers and scuffing of the piston  rubber in slaves. This 
may be
why your Dad did the clutch but not the brake  system. A DOT 5 fluid is also
more compressible than a DOT 4 so the pedal  will feel spongier. The only 
real
advantage to DOT 5 is that it will not  ruin paint when (notice I didn't say
"if") the master/slave cylinder fails.  Even though it is now a different
formula than of old, good old DOT 4  Castrol GTA/LMA it still glycol-based 
and
will help keep the rubber piston  swollen.

The DOT 5.1 is a glycol-based fluid so it is also hydroscopic,  its main 
claim
to fame is that it is a thinner viscosity than DOT 4 which  is needed for 
some
ABS systems to be able to rapid cycle in cold climates.  Not many OEM's use 
DOT
5, I can only find reference to  Harley.

Dry Boiling Point      Wet Boiling Point (3% water)
DOT 3        401F                284F
DOT 4             446F    311F
DOT 5      500F              356F
DOT 5.1         518F      375F

The "wet" boiling point  is when the fluid has absorbed 3% water by volume, 
a
feat that can be  accomplished on our cars over one typical damp winter 
storage
period here  in the Midwest. Water can diffuse in through the rubber brake
hoses as  well. Most of my racer buddies have tried DOT 5 and have gone 
back to
the  racing-spec DOT 3 fluids that actually have higher dry boiling points  
than
DOT 5, they prefer the harder pedal feel.

I know many Tiger  folks that have used DOT 5 without a problem, so it's up 
to
you. In your  climate moisture is not a big problem, I suggest you stay with
the DOT 4  Castrol GTA/LMA for the brake system and flush it every other 
year.
I made  a power bleeder by finding an old master cylinder cap and fitting an
air  hose chuck. Fill the reservoir and use about 10 psi to push out all the
old  fluid. I can power bleed the brakes in about 1/2 hour.

As for your  clutch, you will need to rebuild the slave for sure, so the
easiest way out  is to do that and stay with the DOT 5, just don't mix the 
two
fluids up!  Make sure you check inside the firewall for signs of the leaks 
from
either  MC as well.

Bugz

-----Original Message-----

 the
clutch.

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 12:14:46 -0400 (EDT)

Should have been clear...I'm talking about clutch MC, only. The possibility 
 of the o-ring rolling isn't an issue in the shorter throw of the brake MC.

In a message dated 4/22/2013 9:12:19 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
[email-masked] writes:

allow them to roll. DOT 3 is commonly considered a better bet...at least  
that's  what we run in the Formula Fords and other race cars using  the 
Girling 
MC.

Jay,
why your  Dad did the clutch but not the brake  system. A DOT 5 fluid is  
also
advantage to DOT 5 is that it will not  ruin paint  when (notice I didn't 
say

The DOT 5.1 is a glycol-based fluid so it is also  hydroscopic,  its main 
claim
to fame is that it is a thinner  viscosity than DOT 4 which  is needed for 
some
ABS systems to be  able to rapid cycle in cold climates.  Not many OEM's 
use 
DOT
5, I  can only find reference to  Harley.

The "wet" boiling point  is when the fluid has absorbed 3%  water by 
volume, 
a
  
than

I know many  Tiger  folks that have used DOT 5 without a problem, so it's 
up  
to
you. In your  climate moisture is not a big problem, I suggest  you stay 
with
the DOT 4  Castrol GTA/LMA for the brake system and  flush it every other 
year.
I made  a power bleeder by finding an  old master cylinder cap and fitting 
an
air  hose chuck. Fill the  reservoir and use about 10 psi to push out all 
the
old  fluid. I can  power bleed the brakes in about 1/2 hour.

from
either  MC as well.

Bugz

-----Original  Message-----

I just did a  search  in the archives and found that my dad did put DOT 5 
in  
the
clutch.

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: Jay Laifman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:21:14 -0700

I just spoke to Rick and ordered rebuild kits.  He said that the supplier
of the rebuild kits is very clear, in writing, that their rubber will
withstand any of the fluids.  He said that the supplier of the actual
masters and slaves is not so clear.

Rick also said that he sells LMA, but has a hard time getting it himself.

I also mentioned my idea of going with a larger slave or smaller master to
make the effort a little less.  He said that usually since most of the
Tigers disengage at the bottom, and mine disengages up at the top, I might
be able to make that swap.  Except, he said the slave is already pretty big
and the master pretty small, and he does not know of available
alternatives.  I don't know what kind of clutch is in there.  I think Dan
Walters was the last one in there ages ago, but doesn't remember.

Jay

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 9:03 AM, <[email-masked]> wrote:

> **
> Girling MC.

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