Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Bad breaker?

From: Jim Franklin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2025 11:36:28 -0500

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If you shut off the breaker, confirm there is no voltage on the output =
side of it, and test for continuity between the breaker output and =
ground, you should get a good idea if the breaker is actually doing its =
job, i.e. there's short somewhere. If you don't see continuity, it's an =
unknown, in which case I'd replace it with a GFI breaker (since you want =
to do that anyway) and see what happens.=20

jim

> On Feb 1, 2025, at 11:03 AM, Tim . <[email-masked]> =
wrote:
>=20
> The breaker that controls my sink grinder's outlet seems to have =
failed. It won't reset.=20
>=20
> It is simply a matter of replacing the breaker with a new one or might =
there be another issue in the circuit? Near as I can tell that breaker =
only has one outlet on it. (house was built in 1905 or so and still has =
active knob and tube. ffs. And there are at least four breakers =
controlling our tiny kitchen.) Also, the outlet is not GFI so I want to =
replace it but can't really fit under the sink to do it.=20
>=20
> So, can I just replace the breaker or should I bite the bullet and =
call and electrician?
>=20
> Thanks
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk =
http://autox.team.net/archive
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">If you shut =
off the breaker, confirm there is no voltage on the output side of it, =
and test for continuity between the breaker output and ground, you =
should get a good idea if the breaker is actually doing its job, i.e. =
there's short somewhere. If you don't see continuity, it's an unknown, =
in which case I'd replace it with a GFI breaker (since you want to do =
that anyway) and see what =
happens.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>jim<br><div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div>On Feb 1, 2025, at 11:03 AM, Tim . =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta charset=3D"UTF-8"><div =
class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">The =
breaker that controls my sink grinder's outlet seems to have failed. It =
won't reset.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-style:=
 normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 12pt;"><br></div><div class=3D"elementToProof" =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: =
Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">It is simply a matter =
of replacing the breaker with a new one or might there be another issue =
in the circuit? Near as I can tell that breaker only has one outlet on =
it. (house was built in 1905 or so and still has active knob and tube. =
ffs. And there are at least four breakers controlling our tiny kitchen.) =
Also, the outlet is not GFI so I want to replace it but can't really fit =
under the sink to do it.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"elementToProof" =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: =
Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br></div><div =
class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">So, =
can I just replace the breaker or should I bite the bullet and call and =
electrician?</div><div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 12pt;"><br></div><div class=3D"elementToProof" =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: =
Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Thanks</div><div =
class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
12pt;">tim</div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline =
!important;">_______________________________________________</span><br =
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14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; =
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14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; =
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!important;">Donate:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
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Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
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14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; =
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_______________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

--===============1223623028081494712==--

---

From: "Tim ." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2025 17:10:55 +0000

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I did but mainly to make sure it wasn't the grinder (which worked fine when=
 plugged into an extension cord.

And, to be clear, I wasn't asking about replacing the breaker with a GFI (b=
ut I will), I was wondering about replacing the outlet with GFI.

Thanks guys

________________________________
From: Gene Garrison <[email-masked]>
Sent: Saturday, February 1, 2025 11:01 AM
To: Tim . <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Bad breaker?

Probably an obvious question, but did you unplug the grinder to make sure i=
t's not just continuing to trip the breaker?

- GeneG

On 2/1/25 8:03 AM, Tim . wrote:
The breaker that controls my sink grinder's outlet seems to have failed. It=
 won't reset.

It is simply a matter of replacing the breaker with a new one or might ther=
e be another issue in the circuit? Near as I can tell that breaker only has=
 one outlet on it. (house was built in 1905 or so and still has active knob=
 and tube. ffs. And there are at least four breakers controlling our tiny k=
itchen.) Also, the outlet is not GFI so I want to replace it but can't real=
ly fit under the sink to do it.

So, can I just replace the breaker or should I bite the bullet and call and=
 electrician?

Thanks
tim

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arch=
ive

rrison-grafixx.com

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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bo=
ttom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I did but mainly to make sure it wasn't the grinder (which worked fine when=
 plugged into an extension cord.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
And, to be clear, I wasn't asking about replacing the breaker with a GFI (b=
ut I will), I was wondering about replacing the outlet with GFI.&nbsp;</div=
<div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Thanks guys</div>
<div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"appendonsend"></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display: inline-block; width: 98%;">
<div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b>&nbsp;Gene G=
arrison &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b>&nbsp;Saturday, February 1, 2025 11:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b>&nbsp;Tim . &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b>&nbsp;Re: [Shop-talk] Bad breaker?</span>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Probably an obvious quest=
ion, but did you unplug the grinder to make sure it's not just continuing t=
o trip the breaker?</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">- GeneG</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br>
</p>
<div>On 2/1/25 8:03 AM, Tim . wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
The breaker that controls my sink grinder's outlet seems to have failed. It=
 won't reset.&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
It is simply a matter of replacing the breaker with a new one or might ther=
e be another issue in the circuit? Near as I can tell that breaker only has=
 one outlet on it. (house was built in 1905 or so and still has active knob=
 and tube. ffs. And there are at
 least four breakers controlling our tiny kitchen.) Also, the outlet is not=
 GFI so I want to replace it but can't really fit under the sink to do it.&=
nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
So, can I just replace the breaker or should I bite the bullet and call and=
 electrician?</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Thanks</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
tim</div>
<br>
<fieldset class=3D"x_moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre><div>_______________________________________________=0A=
=0A=
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" id=3D"OWAe2442e24-4696-5812-d2f=
0-ba04b7a27824" class=3D"x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated OWAAutoLink">Shop-talk@=
autox.team.net</a>=0A=
79ed-2918-d85e09d16f57" class=3D"x_moz-txt-link-freetext OWAAutoLink" data-=
auth=3D"NotApplicable">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a>=0A=
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" id=3D"OWA62076=
e82-d7ae-57dc-ed48-b5a4caf849bf" class=3D"x_moz-txt-link-freetext OWAAutoLi=
nk" data-auth=3D"NotApplicable">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a>=
 <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" id=3D"OWAe96ec2ca-aeb4-a775-e533=
-68301946796e" class=3D"x_moz-txt-link-freetext OWAAutoLink" data-auth=3D"N=
otApplicable">http://autox.team.net/archive</a>=0A=
=0A=
alk/[email-masked]" id=3D"OWAf41575b5-a525-adcc-ad3e-e74bc46889d=
2" class=3D"x_moz-txt-link-freetext OWAAutoLink" data-auth=3D"NotApplicable=
">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]=
</a>=0A=
=0A=
</div></pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
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[email-masked]

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---

From: Ronnie Day <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2025 11:16:20 -0600

--===============4892508556979287380==

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Tim,

Are you sure the problem isn't the disposal? If it's on a plug instead of
being hardwired use a short12 gauge extension cord to plug it into a plug
on a different breaker. I'd also plug something into the plug under the
sink to make sure the circuit is OK. If there isn't a plug under the sink,
I'd suggest adding one while you're sorting this all out.

I have a Klein 80016 Circuit Tester that's been invaluable for testing
electrics. It's not super cheap around $55 for the whole kit but I use it,
at least the plug tester, frequently. You should have a plug tester at the
very least. As far as doing any work other than testing, you'll have to
decide. Pushing 78, I do little, if any work that calls for me to get down
on the floor or/and into tight spaces unless I absolutely have to!

HTH,
Ron

On Sat, Feb 1, 2025 at 10:20=E2=80=AFAM Tim . <[email-masked]=
m> wrote:

> The breaker that controls my sink grinder's outlet seems to have failed.
> It won't reset.
>
> It is simply a matter of replacing the breaker with a new one or might
> there be another issue in the circuit? Near as I can tell that breaker on=
ly
> has one outlet on it. (house was built in 1905 or so and still has active
> knob and tube. ffs. And there are at least four breakers controlling our
> tiny kitchen.) Also, the outlet is not GFI so I want to replace it but
> can't really fit under the sink to do it.
>
> So, can I just replace the breaker or should I bite the bullet and call
> and electrician?
>
> Thanks
> tim
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Tim,<div><br></div><div>Are you sure the problem isn&#39;t=
 the disposal? If it&#39;s on a plug instead of being hardwired use a short=
12 gauge extension cord to plug it into a plug on a different breaker. I&#3=
9;d also plug something into the plug under the sink to make sure the circu=
it is OK. If there isn&#39;t a plug under the sink, I&#39;d suggest adding =
one while you&#39;re sorting this all out.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I=
 have a Klein 80016 Circuit Tester that&#39;s been invaluable for testing e=
lectrics. It&#39;s not super cheap around=C2=A0$55 for the whole kit but I =
use it, at least the plug tester, frequently. You should=C2=A0have a plug t=
ester at the very least. As far as doing any work other=C2=A0than testing, =
you&#39;ll have to decide. Pushing 78, I do little, if any work that calls =
for me=C2=A0to get down on the floor or/and into tight spaces unless I abso=
lutely have to!=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>HTH,</div><div>Ron</div></di=
v><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 1, 2025 at 10:20=E2=80=AFAM Tim . &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 class=3D"msg-2301337233977723468">

<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">
The breaker that controls my sink grinder&#39;s outlet seems to have failed=
. It won&#39;t reset.=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">
It is simply a matter of replacing the breaker with a new one or might ther=
e be another issue in the circuit? Near as I can tell that breaker only has=
 one outlet on it. (house was built in 1905 or so and still has active knob=
 and tube. ffs. And there are at
 least four breakers controlling our tiny kitchen.) Also, the outlet is not=
 GFI so I want to replace it but can&#39;t really fit under the sink to do =
it.=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">
So, can I just replace the breaker or should I bite the bullet and call and=
 electrician?</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">
Thanks</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">
tim</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net</a><br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a> <a href=
=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://autox.team.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
alk/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox=
.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
</div></blockquote></div>

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[email-masked]

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From: Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2025 12:30:10 -0500

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--000000000000604557062d180337

On Sat, Feb 1, 2025, 12:08 Jim Franklin <[email-masked]> wrote:

> If you shut off the breaker, confirm there is no voltage on the output
> side of it, and test for continuity between the breaker output and ground,
>

You would want to have the grinder disconnected and the kitchen switch on
to properly test for a short, I think.

Does it snap off, or just sort of not latch on?

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_contai=
ner"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 1, 2025, 12:08 Jim F=
ranklin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]=
g</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"line=
-break:after-white-space">If you shut off the breaker, confirm there is no =
voltage on the output side of it, and test for continuity between the break=
er output and ground,=C2=A0</div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You would want to have the grinder disconnecte=
d and the kitchen switch on to properly test for a short, I think.</div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Does it snap off, or just sort o=
f not latch on?=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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[email-masked]

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---

From: Jimmie Mayfield <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2025 12:34:15 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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The fly in the ointment is the k&t wiring.  Will a GFI or AFI breaker 
work reliably with k&t?

J

On 2/1/25 11:36, Jim Franklin wrote:
> side of it, and test for continuity between the breaker output and 
> ground, you should get a good idea if the breaker is actually doing 
> its job, i.e. there's short somewhere. If you don't see continuity, 
> it's an unknown, in which case I'd replace it with a GFI breaker 
> (since you want to do that anyway) and see what happens.
>
> jim
>
>> On Feb 1, 2025, at 11:03 AM, Tim . <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>
>> The breaker that controls my sink grinder's outlet seems to have 
>> failed. It won't reset.
>>
>> It is simply a matter of replacing the breaker with a new one or 
>> might there be another issue in the circuit? Near as I can tell that 
>> breaker only has one outlet on it. (house was built in 1905 or so and 
>> still has active knob and tube. ffs. And there are at least four 
>> breakers controlling our tiny kitchen.) Also, the outlet is not GFI 
>> so I want to replace it but can't really fit under the sink to do it.
>>
>> So, can I just replace the breaker or should I bite the bullet and 
>> call and electrician?
>>
>> Thanks
>> tim
>> Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talkhttp://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>
> Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>

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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">The fly in the ointment is the k&amp;t
      wiring.  Will a GFI or AFI breaker work reliably with k&amp;t?<br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">J</div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/1/25 11:36, Jim Franklin wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      If you shut off the breaker, confirm there is no voltage on the
      output side of it, and test for continuity between the breaker
      output and ground, you should get a good idea if the breaker is
      actually doing its job, i.e. there's short somewhere. If you don't
      see continuity, it's an unknown, in which case I'd replace it with
      a GFI breaker (since you want to do that anyway) and see what
      happens. 
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>jim<br>
        <div><br>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <div>On Feb 1, 2025, at 11:03 AM, Tim .
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a> wrote:</div>
            <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
            <div>
              <meta charset="UTF-8">
              <div class="elementToProof"
style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">The
                breaker that controls my sink grinder's outlet seems to
                have failed. It won't reset. </div>
              <div class="elementToProof"
style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>
              </div>
              <div class="elementToProof"
style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">It
                is simply a matter of replacing the breaker with a new
                one or might there be another issue in the circuit? Near
                as I can tell that breaker only has one outlet on it.
                (house was built in 1905 or so and still has active knob
                and tube. ffs. And there are at least four breakers
                controlling our tiny kitchen.) Also, the outlet is not
                GFI so I want to replace it but can't really fit under
                the sink to do it. </div>
              <div class="elementToProof"
style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>
              </div>
              <div class="elementToProof"
style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">So,
                can I just replace the breaker or should I bite the
                bullet and call and electrician?</div>
              <div class="elementToProof"
style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>
              </div>
              <div class="elementToProof"
style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Thanks</div>
              <div class="elementToProof"
style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">tim</div>
              <span
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      <fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
      <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________

<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>
Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://autox.team.net/archive">http://autox.team.net/archive</a>

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[email-masked]

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From: Douglas Shook <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2025 11:35:53 -0800

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I could misunderstand the situation, but if B&T is in place, there would be
no ground at the sink for the GFI to work unless you ran a separate ground
to the cold water supply line or something similar assuming it is grounded.

On Sat, Feb 1, 2025 at 10:56=E2=80=AFAM Jimmie Mayfield <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> The fly in the ointment is the k&t wiring.  Will a GFI or AFI breaker wor=
k
> reliably with k&t?
> side of it, and test for continuity between the breaker output and ground=
,
> you should get a good idea if the breaker is actually doing its job, i.e.
> there's short somewhere. If you don't see continuity, it's an unknown, in
> which case I'd replace it with a GFI breaker (since you want to do that
> anyway) and see what happens.
>
> jim
>
> On Feb 1, 2025, at 11:03 AM, Tim . <[email-masked]>
> <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
ly
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/ar=
chive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mayfi=
[email-masked]
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I c=
ould misunderstand the situation, but if B&amp;T is in place, there would b=
e no ground at the sink for the GFI to work unless you ran a separate groun=
d to the cold water supply line or something similar assuming it is grounde=
d.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 1, 2025 at 10:56=E2=80=AFAM Jimmi=
e Mayfield &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">mayfiel=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>

 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div>
    <div>The fly in the ointment is the k&amp;t
      wiring.=C2=A0 Will a GFI or AFI breaker work reliably with k&amp;t?<b=
r>
    </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>J</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>On 2/1/25 11:36, Jim Franklin wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      If you shut off the breaker, confirm there is no voltage on the
      output side of it, and test for continuity between the breaker
      output and ground, you should get a good idea if the breaker is
      actually doing its job, i.e. there&#39;s short somewhere. If you don&=
#39;t
      see continuity, it&#39;s an unknown, in which case I&#39;d replace it=
 with
      a GFI breaker (since you want to do that anyway) and see what
      happens.=C2=A0
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>jim<br>
        <div><br>
          <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <div>On Feb 1, 2025, at 11:03 AM, Tim .
              <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_b=
lank">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a> wrote:</div>
            <br>
            <div>
             =20
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-f=
amily:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">The
                breaker that controls my sink grinder&#39;s outlet seems to
                have failed. It won&#39;t reset.=C2=A0</div>
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-f=
amily:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-f=
amily:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">It
                is simply a matter of replacing the breaker with a new
                one or might there be another issue in the circuit? Near
                as I can tell that breaker only has one outlet on it.
                (house was built in 1905 or so and still has active knob
                and tube. ffs. And there are at least four breakers
                controlling our tiny kitchen.) Also, the outlet is not
                GFI so I want to replace it but can&#39;t really fit under
                the sink to do it.=C2=A0</div>
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-f=
amily:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-f=
amily:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">So,
                can I just replace the breaker or should I bite the
                bullet and call and electrician?</div>
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-f=
amily:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-f=
amily:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Thanks</div>
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-f=
amily:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">tim</div>
              <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-styl=
e:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">________________=
_______________________________</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;fo=
nt-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:=
normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;fon=
t-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">Shop-ta=
[email-masked]</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font=
-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-styl=
e:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Donate:<span>=C2=
=A0</span></span><a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" style=3D"font-=
family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;=
font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">http=
://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-styl=
e:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Suggested
                annual donation =C2=A0$12.96</span><br style=3D"font-family=
:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-w=
eight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-styl=
e:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Archive:<span>=
=C2=A0</span></span><a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" sty=
le=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-c=
aps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inde=
nt:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_=
blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
sform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:n=
one;display:inline"><span>=C2=A0</span></span><a href=3D"http://autox.team.=
net/archive" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:norma=
l;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive</a><br style=3D"font-f=
amily:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;f=
ont-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:=
normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-styl=
e:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Unsubscribe/Mana=
ge:<span>=C2=A0</span></span><a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/optio=
ns/shop-talk/[email-masked]" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-si=
ze:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-sp=
ace:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailma=
n/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a></div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
      <pre>_______________________________________________

<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net</a>
//www.team.net/donate.html</a>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" target=3D"_bla=
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m.net/archive" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive</a>

alk/[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.ne=
t/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net</a><br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" rel=3D"norefer=
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p://autox.team.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
alk/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.=
team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

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[email-masked]

--===============0730273168427335346==--

---

From: Pat Horne <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2025 19:36:28 -0600

--===============8992243542781625236==
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	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Knob &amp; Tube is basically Romex without a=
 ground. If ground can not be run to an outlet, the preferred method of deal=
ing with it is to install a GFCI outlet &amp; not connect the ground screw. I=
 would think the same would work for a GFCI breaker, but I never looked into=
 this.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Is the breaker in the main breaker panel? If=
 so, and there is a ground rod attached to that panel, you can connect the b=
reaker=E2=80=99s green wire to it. It is probably also connected to the low s=
ide k&amp;t wire. It is not recommended to connect the ground of a GFCI outl=
et to the low side wire @ the outlet.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Peace, P=
at</div><div><br id=3D"lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Pat=
 Horne&nbsp;<div>We support Habitat for Humanity</div><div><br></div></div><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Feb 1, 2025, at 2:10=E2=80=AFPM, Douglas Shook &lt;di=
[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I could misu=
nderstand the situation, but if B&amp;T is in place, there would be no groun=
d at the sink for the GFI to work unless you ran a separate ground to the co=
ld water supply line or something similar assuming it is grounded.</div></di=
v><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas=
s=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 1, 2025 at 10:56=E2=80=AFAM Jimmie Mayfield &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">mayfield+shoptalk@sack=
heads.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><u></u>

 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div>
    <div>The fly in the ointment is the k&amp;t
      wiring.&nbsp; Will a GFI or AFI breaker work reliably with k&amp;t?<br=
    </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>J</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>On 2/1/25 11:36, Jim Franklin wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      If you shut off the breaker, confirm there is no voltage on the
      output side of it, and test for continuity between the breaker
      output and ground, you should get a good idea if the breaker is
      actually doing its job, i.e. there's short somewhere. If you don't
      see continuity, it's an unknown, in which case I'd replace it with
      a GFI breaker (since you want to do that anyway) and see what
      happens.&nbsp;
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>jim<br>
        <div><br>
          <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <div>On Feb 1, 2025, at 11:03 AM, Tim .
              <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_bl=
ank">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a> wrote:</div>
            <br>
            <div>
             =20
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">The
                breaker that controls my sink grinder's outlet seems to
                have failed. It won't reset.&nbsp;</div>
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">It
                is simply a matter of replacing the breaker with a new
                one or might there be another issue in the circuit? Near
                as I can tell that breaker only has one outlet on it.
                (house was built in 1905 or so and still has active knob
                and tube. ffs. And there are at least four breakers
                controlling our tiny kitchen.) Also, the outlet is not
                GFI so I want to replace it but can't really fit under
                the sink to do it.&nbsp;</div>
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">So,
                can I just replace the breaker or should I bite the
                bullet and call and electrician?</div>
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br>
              </div>
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Thanks</div>
              <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">tim</div>
              <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">____________________=
___________________________</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-si=
ze:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@a=
utox.team.net</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-styl=
e:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Donate:<span>&nbsp;<=
/span></span><a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-w=
eight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">http://www.t=
eam.net/donate.html</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;fon=
t-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Suggested
                annual donation &nbsp;$12.96</span><br style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Archive:<span>&nbsp;=
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[email-masked]

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---

From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2025 21:07:14 -0600

On Sat, Feb 1, 2025 at 2:06 PM Douglas Shook <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> I could misunderstand the situation, but if B&T is in place, there would be no ground at the sink for the GFI to work unless you ran a separate ground to the cold water supply line or something similar assuming it is grounded.

GFCI protection doesn't depend on the existence of a ground.  They
work by comparing the current on the hot and neutral wires.  If
they're different, it means current is not flowing through the
circuit, but is leaking somewhere, so it trips.  The NEC has a
provision that allows a GFCI to be used on circuits that were
installed with ungrounded receptacles, and allows three prong
receptacles to be installed downstream of it.  (they're required to be
labelled 'gfci protected' and 'no equipment ground', but never are.)
It's worth pointing out that a plug in gfci tester -- like the one in
most outlet testers -- won't work on a gfci if there's no ground,
because the tester leaks some current to ground; without a ground,
there's no leakage on that path.  the test button works fine, as does
the self-test features built into GFCI made in the last decade.

-- 
David Scheidt
[email-masked]

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