Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate

From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 11:57:13 -0600

> On Dec 13, 2022, at 09:05, John Innis <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> 
> Flat towing is a slightly different scenario because the engine is not running.  If the engine is running and the clutch is NOT depressed, the input shaft will be turning.  As long as the input shaft is turning, there is lubrication provided.  When flat towing only the output shaft is turning, so no lubrication.  

The input will be turning at idle. The output will be turning at whatever road speed is.  I would not trust the lubrication splash is enough for highway speed. Won’t be long enough for it matter for a stop light, but down a mountain?  

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 14:53:43 -0500 12/13/2022 02:53:59 PM, Serialize complete at 12/13/2022 02:53:59 PM

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Thanks for everyone that gave me input.

My only question is, How would a cop know you are coasting?

I mean, I was a cop and never thought about it.

Any ideas?

Moose

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<span style=" font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">Thanks for everyone
that gave me input.</span>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">My only question
is, How would a cop know you are coasting?</span>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">I mean, I was
a cop and never thought about it.</span>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">Any ideas?</span>
<br>
<br><span style=" font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">Moose</span>

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From: Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 16:13:39 -0500

You probably wouldn't know until they had an accident and they
admitted they were coasting.

On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 4:00 PM <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Moose _______________________________________________
>
> [email-masked]
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From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 17:34:52 -0600

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Not sure if you tell with a car, but a big truck you can hear the
difference.  Even without using a compression brake they do make some noise
when going down hill in gear.  There is a long gentle hill coming into town
not far from where I live.  It always seems the commercial vehicle
enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) are staked out there around harvest time.

On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 2:59 PM <[email-masked]> wrote:

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=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Not sure if you tell with a car, but a big truck you can h=
ear the difference.=C2=A0 Even without using a compression brake they do ma=
ke some noise when going down hill in gear.=C2=A0 There is a long gentle hi=
ll coming into town not far from where I live.=C2=A0 It always seems the co=
mmercial vehicle enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) are staked out there ar=
ound harvest time.<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 2:59 PM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:sans-serif">Thanks for everyone
that gave me input.</span>
<br>
<br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">My only question
is, How would a cop know you are coasting?</span>
<br>
<br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">I mean, I was
a cop and never thought about it.</span>
<br>
<br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">Any ideas?</span>
<br>
<br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif">Moose</span>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
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p://autox.team.net/archive</a><br>
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alk/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.te=
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</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
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style when you=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D<br>=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Bro=
wn=C2=A0 =3D<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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From: DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:07:25 +0000 (UTC)

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 Big trucks have a device called a Jake Brake that increases the normal com=
pression braking.
Here is s snip from this website:=C2=A0 https://www.truckingtruth.com/wiki/=
topic-91/jake-brake

It is a separate component installed on diesel engines, that when engaged, =
releases stored, compressed air from the cylinder at the top of the piston'=
s stroke, preventing it from from returning it's energy to the crankshaft a=
nd powering the down-stroke, and slowing the vehicle as the air is compress=
ed.
When engaged they produce an objectionable amount of noise which is why the=
y are banned in some residential areas.=C2=A0 But they are effective in red=
ucing the amount of brake use and an 18-wheeler has 10 sets of brakes so...
=20
Dave=20

=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Sent: Tue, Dec 13, 2022 5:34 pm
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final=
 thought

Not sure if you tell with a car, but a big truck you can hear the differenc=
e.=C2=A0 Even without using a compression brake they do make some noise whe=
n going down hill in gear.=C2=A0 There is a long gentle hill coming into to=
wn not far from where I live.=C2=A0 It always seems the commercial vehicle =
enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) are staked out there around harvest time=
.

Thanks for everyonethat gave me input.

My only questionis, How would a cop know you are coasting?

I mean, I wasa cop and never thought about it.

Any ideas?

Moose_______________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arch=
ive

@gmail.com

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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D Never offend people with style when you=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D
=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown=C2=A0 =3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_______________________________________________

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<div style="color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size="3">Big trucks have a device called a Jake Brake that increases the normal compression braking.</font></div>

<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>

<div><font size="3">Here is s snip from this website:&nbsp; https://www.truckingtruth.com/wiki/topic-91/jake-brake<br>
</font></div>

<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>

<div><span style="font-style: italic;">It is a separate component installed on diesel engines, that when 
engaged, releases stored, compressed air from the cylinder at the top of
 the piston's stroke, preventing it from from returning it's energy to 
the crankshaft and powering the down-stroke, and slowing the vehicle as 
the air is compressed.</span></div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div><font size="3">When engaged they produce an objectionable amount of noise which is why they are banned in some residential areas.&nbsp; But they are effective in reducing the amount of brake use and an 18-wheeler has 10 sets of brakes so...</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style="clear:both">
<div style="color:black;font:12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div style="color:black;font:12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div><font size="4">Dave <br>
</font></div>

<div><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"><br>
</span></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font size="2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: John Innis &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: [email-masked]<br>
Cc: [email-masked]<br>
Sent: Tue, Dec 13, 2022 5:34 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought<br>
<br>

<div id="yiv2458046592">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Not sure if you tell with a car, but a big truck you can hear the difference.&nbsp; Even without using a compression brake they do make some noise when going down hill in gear.&nbsp; There is a long gentle hill coming into town not far from where I live.&nbsp; It always seems the commercial vehicle enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) are staked out there around harvest time.<br clear="none"></div>
<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv2458046592gmail_quote">
<div id="yiv2458046592yqtfd32662" class="yiv2458046592yqt4257130173">
<div dir="ltr" class="yiv2458046592gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 2:59 PM &lt;<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear="none"></div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;" class="yiv2458046592gmail_quote">
<div id="yiv2458046592yqtfd98843" class="yiv2458046592yqt4257130173"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Thanks for everyone
that gave me input.</span>
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif;">My only question
is, How would a cop know you are coasting?</span>
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif;">I mean, I was
a cop and never thought about it.</span>
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Any ideas?</span>
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Moose</span>
_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br clear="none">
Archive: <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a> <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://autox.team.net/archive">http://autox.team.net/archive</a><br clear="none">
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</blockquote></div>
<br clear="all"><br clear="none">-- <br clear="none">
<div dir="ltr" class="yiv2458046592gmail_signature">=================================<br clear="none">= Never offend people with style when you&nbsp;&nbsp; =<br clear="none">= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown&nbsp; =
<div id="yiv2458046592yqtfd06491" class="yiv2458046592yqt4257130173"><br clear="none">=================================</div>
</div>

<div id="yiv2458046592yqtfd88465" class="yiv2458046592yqt4257130173">
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<div class="yqt4257130173" id="yqtfd76935">_______________________________________________<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:[email-masked]" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br clear="none">Donate: <a shape="rect" href="http://www.team.net/donate.html" target="_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br clear="none">Suggested annual donation&nbsp; $12.96<br clear="none">Archive: <a shape="rect" href="http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" target="_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk </a><a shape="rect" href="http://autox.team.net/archive" target="_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">Unsubscribe/Manage: <a shape="rect" href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]" target="_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div>
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From: John Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 09:52:12 -0800

> vehicle enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) 

Now if the officers so positioned are lesbians...never mind.

A diesel without a Jake or other compression assistance might sound 
different but won't make much engine braking.

An Otto might not sound much different but the braking difference in or 
out of gear will be significant.

The whole 'coasting in neutral' thing mattered maybe back in a day when 
brakes were FAR poorer than the modern norm.  Wouldn't be surprised to 
find many modern hybrids effectively shut off the engine and just use 
all that downhill for regen.

The Aisin/Toyota/Ford FWD hybrid transaxle design is so beautifully 
simple...as long as the electronics work.  I think every Ford C-Max in 
the country migrated to California as soon as gas hit $4.50.  Love to 
find one...

John.

[email-masked]

---

From: Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 15:20:04 -0500

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Many hybrid vehicles do use regenerative braking, but remember that using
the electric motor as a generator puts a load on the drive system analogous
to otto-cycle engine braking.  So it's not the same as coasting in neutral.

We had an early hybrid Ford Focus in our work fleet.  The braking system
had a built-in computer to decide the best (of three) methods of slowing
the vehicle when it sensed pressure on the brake pedal.  Here's an article
about just how much goes on between your foot and the wheels:.
https://www.underhoodservice.com/tech-feature-ford-hybrid-braking/

On Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 14:47 John Miller <[email-masked]> wrote:

> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">Many hybrid vehicles do use regenerative braking, but rem=
ember that using the electric motor as a generator puts a load on the drive=
 system analogous to otto-cycle engine braking.=C2=A0 So it&#39;s not the s=
ame as coasting in neutral.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">We=
 had an early hybrid Ford Focus in our work fleet.=C2=A0 The braking system=
 had a built-in computer to decide the best (of three) methods of slowing t=
he vehicle when it sensed pressure on the brake pedal.=C2=A0 Here&#39;s an =
article about just how much goes on between your foot and the wheels:. <a h=
ref=3D"https://www.underhoodservice.com/tech-feature-ford-hybrid-braking/">=
https://www.underhoodservice.com/tech-feature-ford-hybrid-braking/</a></div=
></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"=
>On Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 14:47 John Miller &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jem@millered=
p.com">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">&gt; vehicle enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) <br>
<br>
Now if the officers so positioned are lesbians...never mind.<br>
<br>
A diesel without a Jake or other compression assistance might sound <br>
different but won&#39;t make much engine braking.<br>
<br>
An Otto might not sound much different but the braking difference in or <br=
out of gear will be significant.<br>
<br>
The whole &#39;coasting in neutral&#39; thing mattered maybe back in a day =
when <br>
brakes were FAR poorer than the modern norm.=C2=A0 Wouldn&#39;t be surprise=
d to <br>
find many modern hybrids effectively shut off the engine and just use <br>
all that downhill for regen.<br>
<br>
The Aisin/Toyota/Ford FWD hybrid transaxle design is so beautifully <br>
simple...as long as the electronics work.=C2=A0 I think every Ford C-Max in=
 <br>
the country migrated to California as soon as gas hit $4.50.=C2=A0 Love to =
<br>
find one...<br>
<br>
John.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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