From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Dec 11 15:17:38 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFEE1A0F62 for ; Sun, 11 Dec 2022 15:17:38 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-qt1-f177.google.com (unknown [209.85.160.177]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3BC3A0761 for ; Sun, 11 Dec 2022 13:39:11 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-qt1-f177.google.com with SMTP id a16so7531508qtw.10 for ; Sun, 11 Dec 2022 12:39:26 -0800 (PST) h=to:date:message-id:subject:mime-version:from:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=L5edps5LB8d9MuqYLHgLsy5waOl8+andC2STTc9bP1w=; b=hwzVvWPIgSYzj/3m/JYiP35Tx0W/zoBy9N9C+E6drwE/EYO0va/nAGYlH4w9X1dnfl 85naNxwTCZK7N+dSZj+XzWqXoik1YGneC6lqUgXbF5D+5xcG2aybNrPDb4gl0vsQmi3J TXg4IUXZqNDuOaQoPL0ii3nTPNHff6w2bjURoAlC1mP2S+E2LRTjFp58gcfFd7a/nTxR MSf7H5K4TXWlrxKQCUOeVToIoxyQQDXSDeYBKqv0RNmcO9iWYFGMbE9W5XENTolUnt2+ gDxUuME8VCm2tbtcNnDyGCiuhTBw8HbI4bcVmJYvPL60J3KUxYirdYUHdnRx5LpxHwQX GCOA== d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=to:date:message-id:subject:mime-version:from:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=L5edps5LB8d9MuqYLHgLsy5waOl8+andC2STTc9bP1w=; b=ciHu0vX5DsmkfhCtKTymnNxGdi+3tY9V45r+jfCMFXYbQ394cFltyM04PSnWzve0zT Kr48i5s1RaOGX2NA/f1VZwwCaIWerjucGtHtm2VRegeoMpJ7CI0TKlBbMogx5VmNz+c7 BG2W9ob9AaxDNUZW8Nm0LGzenxwcI58s6ruXBPruo0MI3VzaPf/bs9WixAGB/ZQ3VTwQ L84CftyMOHbHzwJbFxgSriwC9xQ8kZYGmyWJSM8MMs/8kCeTedotnV/u+fpyV+nitECY XULlbUwOsJV0qRwkuhhrIBDFSRAU6/lttThoimpgCM4Bf7eMNizTfM8x1w6FpsMQCbZo Xh/Q== CRLeJnFaEVWd8lzy19Ef0CaaHtkdmxzKRQ== fz25-20020a05622a5a9900b003a7e788dca7mr21967871qtb.39.1670791165251; Sun, 11 Dec 2022 12:39:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (ool-4350ed26.dyn.optonline.net. [67.80.237.38]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y5-20020a05620a44c500b006f956766f76sm4650092qkp.1.2022.12.11.12.39.24 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 11 Dec 2022 12:39:24 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Stone <1789alpine@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 15:39:23 -0500 To: Shop Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Electric driveway gates Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============6402721184620872732== boundary="Apple-Mail=_3EB7E985-45A5-467E-89EB-C30BE7AC9F7C" --Apple-Mail=_3EB7E985-45A5-467E-89EB-C30BE7AC9F7C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable charset=utf-8 I would like to put an electric gate on our driveway to make it easier = for my wife. The yard is currently fenced in with stockade fence, which = will be replaced with a combination of deer fence (lots of those = around!) and 6=E2=80=9D vertical deck boards along the road. The = current opening is 12 feet, with two 6=E2=80=99x6' (roughly) gates, made = using an off the shelf frame kit = (https://smile.amazon.com/Adjust-Gate-Steel-Building-openings/dp/B000AMP96= S/ref=3Dsr_1_55?crid=3D1QMB822P1HGKW&keywords=3Ddriveway+gates&qid=3D16707= 89911&sprefix=3Ddriveway+gates%2Caps%2C73&sr=3D8-55 = ), pressure treated = lumber and stockade fence. They have worked just fine for about 5 = years, but are stressing the hinges. So I will need something sturdier = for the new gates, which will need to be 6" wider (for a 13=E2=80=99 = opening). They will also likely be heavier, as.my wife would like the = gate to match the planned fence, so vertical 6=E2=80=9D deck boards = there, too. The gate posts are 6=E2=80=9Dx6" pressure treated lumber set in = concrete, so they should be more than up to the task. The driveway = hasn=E2=80=99t been paved yet, so getting current out to the openers = shouldn't be a problem. But, before I get too deep into this project I = wanted to poll the group and see if anyone has recommendations on = openers and gate construction. Thanks, Jim= --Apple-Mail=_3EB7E985-45A5-467E-89EB-C30BE7AC9F7C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable charset=utf-8 I = would like to put an electric gate on our driveway to make it easier for = my wife. The yard is currently fenced in with stockade fence, which will = be replaced with a combination of deer fence (lots of those around!) and = 6=E2=80=9D vertical deck boards along the road.  The current = opening is 12 feet, with two 6=E2=80=99x6' (roughly) gates, made using = an off the shelf frame kit (https://smile.amazon.com/Adjust-Gate-Steel-Building-openings/dp= /B000AMP96S/ref=3Dsr_1_55?crid=3D1QMB822P1HGKW&keywords=3Ddriveway+gat= es&qid=3D1670789911&sprefix=3Ddriveway+gates%2Caps%2C73&sr=3D8= -55), pressure treated lumber and stockade fence.  They have = worked just fine for about 5 years, but are stressing the hinges. =  So I will need something sturdier for the new gates, which will = need to be 6" wider (for a 13=E2=80=99 opening).  They will also = likely be heavier, as.my wife would like the gate to match the planned = fence, so vertical 6=E2=80=9D deck boards there, too.

The gate posts are = 6=E2=80=9Dx6" pressure treated lumber set in concrete, so they should be = more than up to the task.  The driveway hasn=E2=80=99t been paved = yet, so getting current out to the openers shouldn't be a problem. =  But, before I get too deep into this project I wanted to poll the = group and see if anyone has recommendations on openers and gate = construction.

Thanks,
Jim
= --Apple-Mail=_3EB7E985-45A5-467E-89EB-C30BE7AC9F7C-- --===============6402721184620872732== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============6402721184620872732==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 12 08:50:44 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB724A0E45 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 08:50:44 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from Deep13.mail.Megageek.com (unknown [34.199.103.79]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35EB3A1179 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 08:15:36 -0700 (MST) To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net type=4; name=$KeepSent From: eric@megageek.com Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:15:50 -0500 12/12/2022 10:16:00 AM, Serialize complete at 12/12/2022 10:16:00 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============3700702150574175547== This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0053D8A685258916_= I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here. If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage? I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release. Any thoughts? Moose --=_alternative 0053D8A685258916_= I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here.

If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage?

I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release.

Any thoughts?

Moose --=_alternative 0053D8A685258916_=-- --===============3700702150574175547== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============3700702150574175547==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 12 10:01:20 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F843A116E for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:01:20 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from relay9-d.mail.gandi.net (unknown [217.70.183.199]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C213EA0D67 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 09:53:58 -0700 (MST) Received: (Authenticated sender: jamesf@groupwbench.org) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 282A7FF805; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 16:54:11 +0000 (UTC) From: Jim Franklin Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:54:09 -0500 To: eric@megageek.com References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============4630667910996934042== boundary="Apple-Mail=_9D1F8820-0D10-499C-9FCA-60D1927CB20B" --Apple-Mail=_9D1F8820-0D10-499C-9FCA-60D1927CB20B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable charset=us-ascii I can't see why it would harm anything. There is no oil pump that needs = to turn, there is no load on the bearings so any mismatch in output = shaft speed relative to input shaft speed should not affect them. I = think you could go thousands of miles, given a long enough hill, as long = as your foot wasn't on the clutch the whole time (which would wear out = the throwout bearing if the engine was running).=20 jim > On Dec 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote: >=20 > I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real = experts here.=20 >=20 > If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch = while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are = you doing any damage?=20 >=20 > I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with = the clutch release.=20 >=20 > Any thoughts?=20 >=20 > Moose_______________________________________________ >=20 > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk = http://autox.team.net/archive >=20 > Unsubscribe/Manage: = http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf@groupwbench.org >=20 --Apple-Mail=_9D1F8820-0D10-499C-9FCA-60D1927CB20B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit charset=us-ascii I can't see why it would harm anything. There is no oil pump that needs to turn, there is no load on the bearings so any mismatch in output shaft speed relative to input shaft speed should not affect them. I think you could go thousands of miles, given a long enough hill, as long as your foot wasn't on the clutch the whole time (which would wear out the throwout bearing if the engine was running). 

jim

On Dec 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote:

I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here.

If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage?

I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release.

Any thoughts?

Moose_______________________________________________

Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf@groupwbench.org


--Apple-Mail=_9D1F8820-0D10-499C-9FCA-60D1927CB20B-- --===============4630667910996934042== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============4630667910996934042==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 12 10:22:11 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D32A0ECA for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:22:11 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wr1-f49.google.com (unknown [209.85.221.49]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 650B0A117D for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:06:11 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-wr1-f49.google.com with SMTP id u12so12773458wrr.11 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 09:06:26 -0800 (PST) h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VQB/5/vJe2Vo0B8klCF+112QYmUAVA3COlO0yIC7umo=; b=GfymOj2CZxtFyS15tiffuXkHkksL59zKtCMNZ+4WjGeDhVFsyEjj2z5pB0dTLjB803 2FcUInvBcYqtAzHwn/TL/Q2A+i3xfvxXBLVL6G/XmUQwmzGbO1gcNfso75r2ZcahxMOk GezH6bA3Edhz1i/yyTIHP3Kia/zqA5vgqoz75uF5UR+Cwpm71hRYwuFp7zORiwGc0g57 eua6stIuXjpPwR/gJSoejH7HDTNrCLhvPKgp3rC8rk9TsVirbghXzn1AgS8Ec11fB8T1 8oaLp0Utr4OJ8irLwb6JynE752WOw4G1OvKf6SVkF5Le4WbSYsRiBdVIu0JbvvvxfgGx MVNA== d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=VQB/5/vJe2Vo0B8klCF+112QYmUAVA3COlO0yIC7umo=; b=qB7HzqHpTxK6+HbX49mvI8noAB4xUAv+wr3+9Hpq9NcWQIkVGKcWv/AEGeZDWUwus4 e5LY0Ks7hfOON1RksnbtzzeaQfCS/Zz1faP4vYRdqFH+ICvqYh9M/YFliwIS/mAgrunf K6Fv0mba00Pt6ufVpTAcyvt3YaJH7twHP/0hWIabXYsiAHlHuH9ICwk14toirsKJGtbS ZQNpRFJ6EkUyZMtv4O7ZIbduBRmY8rVL+9DOIRXuV96VuG7w5HFqORMqeyOQlR0C8OBW Vz+M133D6/Vub8GKDpPhjGnHZrAUuOsLpwNQpU4zJINAsaJoDNJzv3nhg0/llrLkRGj+ lXzw== FbTyevhwAqVrwqwB78FUdGACSIEddeRWt2HNF+qUqteb s4-20020adfea84000000b002421572bd68mr29947725wrm.487.1670864785320; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 09:06:25 -0800 (PST) References: From: Jeff Scarbrough Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:06:16 -0500 To: eric@megageek.com Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Cc: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============8943216526394616249== --000000000000ff2feb05efa48533 It depends. 1. Will it get sufficient splash lubrication? 2. Will you burn out your brakes holding a coasting car back instead of letting the engine do the braking? I've always heard that at best, it really doesn't help much. -- Jeff On Mon, Dec 12, 2022, 11:00 wrote: > I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real > experts here. > > If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while > going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing > any damage? > > I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the > clutch release. > > Any thoughts? > > Moose_______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate@gmail.com > > --000000000000ff2feb05efa48533 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It depends.

1.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Will it get sufficient splash lubrication?

2.=C2=A0 Will you burn out your brak= es holding a coasting car back instead of letting the engine do the braking= ?

I've always heard = that at best, it really doesn't help much.

<= /div>

-- Jeff

=
On Mon, Dec 12, 2022, 11:00 <eric@megageek.com> wrote:
=
I'm= putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here.

If you put a manually car or truck= in neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage?

I'm not worried about fuel sav= ings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release.

Any thoughts?

Moose______________________= _________________________

Shop-talk@autox.team.net
errer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

alk/fishplate@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht= tp://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate@gmail.com

--000000000000ff2feb05efa48533-- --===============8943216526394616249== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============8943216526394616249==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 12 11:07:12 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1462A1107 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:07:12 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from ms11p00im-qufo17281501.me.com (unknown [17.58.38.52]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87150A012D for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:28:08 -0700 (MST) s=1a1hai; t=1670866102; bh=6VLTZaAw4kn392VUm6UfIgRv6mPLFwRLqKcB7pmqxXo=; h=Content-Type:From:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:Message-Id:To; b=bZtVNfgobhUG9aH7+UIhsIVhJyET5YAyvsa5uxRb/uadclcaZe43yLx99OFf9kCGS eCZxI3+Mp6UoksnKmfllVSQl4ceSP2jxfiycveTtpH5APzGwUTI/gy7+q4bxFsPglo QLu5z43dDH68lcupDKE7yubRZY9EpGYHTeM8RWLlVkfQLOw7KmAIZIelGQxto0vRFQ gFJrBkM4P60Zc1t8cWZdahTPxuky9+qYoIr+5TU464LpMjuKHwAoSTPdP/i61hARDJ duaXfe2RYOrVKX6A4RWc7GJAJrwn7v0qQL9XmtVOzLfZApU62j1WP6wHfzv/Mfnxr9 nFebdGUK4k3pQ== Received: from smtpclient.apple (ms11p00im-dlb-asmtpmailmevip.me.com [17.57.154.19]) by ms11p00im-qufo17281501.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 72731B61D11; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 17:28:22 +0000 (UTC) From: Pat Horne Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:28:10 -0600 References: To: eric@megageek.com =?UTF-8?Q?2903e8d5c8f:6.0.425,18.0.572,17.11.62.513.0000000_definitions?= =?UTF-8?Q?=3D2022-01-14=5F01:2022-01-14=5F01,2020-02-14=5F11,2021-12-02?= =?UTF-8?Q?=5F01_signatures=3D0?= malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 clxscore=1015 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2209130000 definitions=main-2212120157 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============5126751187221811053== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Apple-Mail-64549113-B987-4941-8381-6B23A22A7794 charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In general, I don=E2=80=99t see any problem. However I recall something simi= lar decades ago where a tow truck driver did a two wheel haul on a car that w= as very low on trans fluid. After a long tow the trans bearings heated up & s= eized. Can=E2=80=99t say for sure that really happened or not.=20 Peace, Pat Pat Horne=20 We support Habitat for Humanity On Dec 12, 2022, at 10:05 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote: =EF=BB=BFI'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the rea= l experts here.=20 If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while g= oing down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing an= y damage?=20 I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clu= tch release.=20 Any thoughts?=20 Moose_______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archi= ve as@icloud.com --Apple-Mail-64549113-B987-4941-8381-6B23A22A7794 charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In general, I don=E2=80=99t see any problem= . However I recall something similar decades ago where a tow truck driver di= d a two wheel haul on a car that was very low on trans fluid. After a long t= ow the trans bearings heated up & seized. Can=E2=80=99t say for sure tha= t really happened or not. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity

<= /div>

On Dec 12, 2022, at 10:05 AM, eric@megageek.= com wrote:

=EF=BB=BFI'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here.

If you put a manually car or truck i= n neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage?

I'm not worried about fuel savings,= just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release.

Any thoughts?

Moose_________________= ______________________________

Shop-talk@au= tox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html<= br>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: htt= p://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/op= tions/shop-talk/patintexas@icloud.com

= --Apple-Mail-64549113-B987-4941-8381-6B23A22A7794-- --===============5126751187221811053== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============5126751187221811053==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 12 11:25:59 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AAFCA112A for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:25:59 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cyan.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (unknown [23.83.212.47]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA1CA0F02 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:32:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542FE20137A for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 17:33:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a267.dreamhost.com (unknown [127.0.0.6]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DE80120242C for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 17:33:10 +0000 (UTC) ARC-Seal: i=1; s=arc-2022; d=mailchannels.net; t=1670866390; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=+NxmwV9iybdSgU3/pJ9wPFnu+vnge8DWd1o8UKCBV4UJ/uyecGnfNrz3YgbdmO2ojtNa8X 4JkZN1GT+YnJOdot8eTKiM2KgAGq9ShDgjByWgftz3F9PuqsNNBaSz69qGiVTJ5uG6OgbH WogYlnXCsbvUA0ARItsnYJidA/RnHwAZHBVa5E2xvRUtensKloquG6Vu/FxakrMge2taAE EgiaBj8xHbZ4XdWq7oiq9M6IynjUlS8HOWo08aFnJbsxjorRUkhxtfv88nQkj48pvtCx+h X3jEkh1xH70VbIJOtO+Kkeeqprv1sK3ShuACub0Q3BpFWEDob7ylv5vD6914nw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailchannels.net; s=arc-2022; t=1670866390; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: bh=lB2+DF/1VEfbwmGUWo5a5apt4DbIs0F92FnpX2AIViU=; b=rBFMnpP6UPQMIU5AMG+3mcR7T1x6OCrdTkY1ytW4gai66HXdosOP0xJjp+BRcl18J5NITK Twbe9PgcY3+J2sekbaiYVnP9IqNgvmgaS9Fm6xl2wyeyzCnWLfE64qnSQMUOq5pKDEKDoy da9mhtZeMbdToAa3uEdEC07cUSzrDbi417yiZiqto49SBWKUXi415xKPxWJoGzQOg0zlXO b4+FjTjhbrMeIWXtVQuUeKtzuWbozwJofDk3XqTgDPeFhtFB4Yl78lBC43dESNcmKGhrPA TujfuaQSW/RlebR1xWxB2r7SrlaP9FPmFF2Pt13Bf0FgsP7iycOJM3kKTeE4+Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; rspamd-85f95c7974-xk78k; auth=pass smtp.auth=dreamhost smtp.mailfrom=jem@milleredp.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a267.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by 100.97.48.78 (trex/6.7.1); Mon, 12 Dec 2022 17:33:11 +0000 Received: from [10.1.2.207] (c-67-161-16-174.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.161.16.174]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jem@milleredp.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a267.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4NW7xy3VDzz6y for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 09:33:10 -0800 (PST) s=dreamhost; t=1670866390; bh=lB2+DF/1VEfbwmGUWo5a5apt4DbIs0F92FnpX2AIViU=; h=Date:Subject:To:From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=q6e6K7peMDNlOmiFE1yEA/RLkbET8v/l1nLu2bcG7uLFinvGFSOzlTvmptqv7aeBT oP2roFNsVeBoH2eBazsQ0VgeP7tGv4/e/FcILW1T+Gg52SOwLzJmujSXjWCHVie2S0 J5EzYo6HtD78b4/pvfsGwJQH7oJpZCRzth1mdf7wMZZZ13nr5w6hjLhuGerg6MbECV 7uRGRe9dQNXine+nRTUvPJmNX1CH9EQ8YDRkJUPHwr6xWOgv9+mZrmT3ic6trDklIU UVL5hYVJr9lbEA3m7S4Vzl2ox6oBriBS8pjAp3rIgj9sT4qAULpvAKui9VnGqfXnnt Px6ZDwdfckA4A== Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 09:32:09 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.5.1 Content-Language: en-US To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: From: John Miller Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch > while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, > are you doing any damage? Ah, Mexican Overdrive as it used to be called. You said 'release the clutch' so that's assuming it's a manual transmission. You're pretty safe, most traditional manuals are splash-lubricated and will do fine. Maybe some DSG-type quasi-manuals maybe not so much. Automatics it's potentially a problem, it depends on which end of the transmission the hydraulic pump(s) that lubricate and cool things is/are driven from. The ZF 4HP18 was a notorious case, the hydraulics were driven off the output side. Perhaps what you need for this, but they routinely blew up a couple weeks after e.g. California smog tests where the engine was run at 2500RPM in neutral for a few minutes. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 12 11:47:49 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C1BA0F02 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:47:49 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from omta013.useast.a.cloudfilter.net (unknown [34.195.253.204]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDAAA0FD6 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:47:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from cxr.smtp.a.cloudfilter.net ([10.0.17.210]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id 4k4gpPvBn3VVl4mu6phEXp; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 17:47:50 +0000 Received: from John-PC.cox.net ([68.10.236.102]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPSA id 4mu5pONE1oAyU4mu5pt6a6; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 17:47:50 +0000 Authentication-Results: cox.net; auth=pass (LOGIN) smtp.auth=jblair1948@cox.net a=fFb8bx/I9shrFqPlEITjOA==:117 a=fFb8bx/I9shrFqPlEITjOA==:17 a=HpEJnUlJZJkA:10 a=iEZWaKCLAAAA:8 a=zOoktvdPAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=q6SfDYXhAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=iVAur8Dain9WPuw0DX4A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=aav4MXMyVXkA:10 a=4zxjrV59PHAA:10 a=bz_d9vehOyUA:10 a=m3MdUl94G8cA:10 a=GGwxkeRKJ0dr3Umyi5gA:9 a=xM_7D4nZ6oS-lY7F:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=lqcHg5cX4UMA:10 a=vGgPcN4G-ktUWJNYb7fx:22 a=GGGinmgZRQXmVEG1E52S:22 a=R7nWeq4dleIJhz-CJ_3q:22 Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:46:50 -0500 To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net,eric@megageek.com From: "John T. Blair" mail.megageek.com> References: /H3tN9ZgZCrk68IWV3D9qA4g18kIQ4TmUXpVskFcb+cPN4x7Ekt1V5PxDJXdUtQGBH5nf9sn7BB8mJ8Yulbtu2JAZHu7jXukAf/OQEl2o/5VUiMmYPZiOnpD Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============7469705451884971825== boundary="=====================_14269848==.ALT" --=====================_14269848==.ALT At 10:15 AM 12/12/2022, eric@megageek.com wrote: >I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here. > >If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long >hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage? > >I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release. Moose, As long as you release the clutch, I can't see where you're doing any harm. Most manual Xmissions are splash lubericated so it's getting the proper amound of lub for the speed. The engine is getting it's required lub as it is NOT connected to the xmission. That said, especially going down hill, I don't think it's a good idea. And I've been told that in a lot of states it's illegal to coast in neutral to lights, etc. The reason being is you don't necessarily have "positive" control over the vechile. I've done it many times, and needed to set on the gas and forgot that it was out of gear. Luckily, as the rpms increased and the speed didn't I realized what was wrong and took my foot off the gas. But if I had really needed to stomp the gas, I would have been in trouble. But when I've slowed down conciderably, I do quite often put the car in neutral and release the clutch and coast into the light. One other point. Speaking of releasing the clutch, when you pull up to a traffic light or have to stop for any reason, you should put the xmission in neutral, let out the clutch. Keeping the clutch depress puts wear on the throwout bearing and cause a premature failure. John >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk@autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jblair1948@cox.net John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948@cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: http://autox.team.net/morgan/ Bricklin: http://www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --=====================_14269848==.ALT At 10:15 AM 12/12/2022, eric@megageek.com wrote:

>I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here.
>
>If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long
>hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage?
>
>I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release.

Moose,

As long as you release the clutch, I can't see where you're doing any harm.  Most
manual Xmissions are splash lubericated so it's getting the proper amound of lub
for the speed.  The engine is getting it's required lub as it is NOT connected to the
xmission.

That said, especially going down hill, I don't think it's a good idea.  And I've been
told that in a lot of states it's illegal to coast in neutral to lights, etc.  The reason
being is you don't necessarily have "positive" control over the vechile.  I've done
it many times, and needed to set on the gas and forgot that it was out of gear.
Luckily, as the rpms increased and the speed didn't I realized what was wrong and
took my foot off the gas.  But if I had really needed to stomp the gas, I would
have been in trouble. 

But when I've slowed down conciderably, I do quite often put the car in neutral and
release the clutch and coast into the light.

One other point.  Speaking of releasing the clutch, when you pull up to a traffic light
or have to stop for any reason, you should put the xmission in neutral, let out the
clutch.  Keeping the clutch depress puts  wear on the throwout bearing and cause
a premature failure.

John


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Donate: Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jblair1948@cox.net

Virus-free. www.avast.com



John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948@cox.net
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Bricklin:     http://www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
     e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
     In God We Trust
     Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for 
                  oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction 


--=====================_14269848==.ALT-- --===============7469705451884971825== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============7469705451884971825==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 12 12:41:27 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5B03A0B8C for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:41:27 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-yw1-f174.google.com (unknown [209.85.128.174]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB85A0D24 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:16:06 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-yw1-f174.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-3bfd998fa53so158556687b3.5 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:16:21 -0800 (PST) h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=z8H9mx1WLCihund2CBY4s9hH+zvm+S3wvIvmf5tMUog=; b=CUs88Hl6HIBaHiZmlUBUHXT7Z19NAFUB9jU8s8aoAdh1RRAsmc5douozwxEXTMa5yh b5vX0Lv1u08/wkXS/v+OpUvuLN6ZuE1ePZXH4Qdb34yt3zauOiHs/Mzam4cyuvjlFwLQ 7hL0h87VQZKW6DXhjtzSOA06Gg8tREUD3ZnJAsnBQ4IgGL0Ed75/soOJ1dGOK4OBTimw sCBOrZTLYfBVmuetoeycCg3Ej82fm1YSjIgTTR+NRmUpvhP1T8pp9QD1VLlZJ/81fQXL gAEsIO6Ucp7WvtrYYFPxbEDKqIUkDHEjqCHtEmz21srR0b09Krm5nQFG3QCV0TWSGDcS cmEQ== d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=z8H9mx1WLCihund2CBY4s9hH+zvm+S3wvIvmf5tMUog=; b=2qViOAIB2S0y8l+2AhmhmX1bnnseBTRVoxZf+QsELTdCaxUDQZnAnWMk7n4n/py+MO T8xcKTaN4B6bC9FfFTKr3lV0/Va0sCef6T/TLO7XumyWjFPjj/HbhdtAWOkohxigXG7F jpP3WS5XhUsWiiLXfF+wgsJDsh7pGaosiDbugR08BjXre3Sc7izuKNGM3G94SRVfJ1hK L3dIpcXvYe5UsU4497/Y97yt/I8LufpGwyxabSrLGFjylJuaSPzW9V/D1bHFeEkl4nok 9AAu5IKB1DyB7UCyrIK+/75ZHrbsD8iNgONkw4E6iR+gAlAV9URquSOzl33Ni3Oc1eoy 6Z+w== a66+kZ6fQxXqaxjLfMchk55Pkpu2HOajhTeKYUQ= w20-20020a814914000000b003afeac876dfmr3768956ywa.243.1670868980878; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:16:20 -0800 (PST) References: <5C5684CE-BFDB-4B82-B1E2-5BA1608D25AD@icloud.com> From: old dirtbeard Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:16:12 -0800 To: Pat Horne Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============0601367551117448397== --0000000000001251dc05efa58081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think it could depend upon the specific transmission. If the driven shaft is the lower shaft (in the oil bath) it should not be a problem. If the input shaft is the lower shaft (in the oil bath), then spinning the top shaft (the output shaft) for extended periods could cause things to run dry and seize. I believe a friend of mine was towing a 1972 Z28 after blowing an engine, and had the transmission seize-up as well. It was not a particularly good day for him, to say the least. best, doug On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 10:11 AM Pat Horne wrote: > In general, I don=E2=80=99t see any problem. However I recall something s= imilar > decades ago where a tow truck driver did a two wheel haul on a car that w= as > very low on trans fluid. After a long tow the trans bearings heated up & > seized. Can=E2=80=99t say for sure that really happened or not. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > > On Dec 12, 2022, at 10:05 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote: > > =EF=BB=BFI'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the = real > experts here. > > If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch whil= e > going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doin= g > any damage? > > I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the > clutch release. > > Any thoughts? > > Moose_______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas@icloud.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard@gmail.com > > --0000000000001251dc05efa58081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I t= hink it could depend upon the specific transmission. If the driven shaft is= the lower shaft (in the oil bath) it should not be a problem.=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:large">
If the input shaft is the lowe= r shaft (in the oil bath), then spinning the top shaft (the output shaft) f= or extended periods could cause things to run dry and seize.=C2=A0

I believe=C2=A0a friend of mine w= as towing a 1972 Z28 after blowing an engine, and had the transmission seiz= e-up as well. It was not a particularly good day for him, to say the least.=

best,

doug


On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 10:11 AM Pat Horne = <patintexas@icloud.com> = wrote:
In general, I don=E2=80=99t see any problem. However I recall som= ething similar decades ago where a tow truck driver did a two wheel haul on= a car that was very low on trans fluid. After a long tow the trans bearing= s heated up & seized. Can=E2=80=99t say for sure that really happened o= r not.=C2=A0

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne= =C2=A0
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Dec 12, 2022, at 10:05 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote:

=EF=BB=BFI'm putting this= out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here.

If you put a manually car or truck= in neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage?

I'm not worried about fuel sav= ings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release.

Any thoughts?

Moose________________= _______________________________

Shop-talk@autox.team.ne= t
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Sugges= ted annual donation =C2=A0$12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pi= permail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

U= nsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/o= ptions/shop-talk/patintexas@icloud.com

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk@aut= ox.team.net
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk htt= p://autox.team.net/archive

alk/dirtbeard@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.= team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard@gmail.com

--0000000000001251dc05efa58081-- --===============0601367551117448397== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============0601367551117448397==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 12 13:00:27 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 797F0A1114 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 13:00:27 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-qt1-f171.google.com (unknown [209.85.160.171]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56E1BA0B9E for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:39:08 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-qt1-f171.google.com with SMTP id cg5so9734337qtb.12 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:39:23 -0800 (PST) h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=YCDysZoc0ZVv7j5ZdDSu9X+/Yte18o6uTeOgqgCALDw=; b=ljvkrUtd/5NPO1Ys5/Ypq6MhSEqwOiJLpjgLbypDw/QmIh8UqAJyaiRYWNOuPf+ulx oHF25jGGvSDhEI/wybLiPv79nUZNZgeE4/nM8aih2ZDqyvLsg1oz5clKxFytCegVQ1fX 8RubtUnXbDAr+i9iu7diWvyQI+cBLwxf5DCDk+pOOj4K4x0dAoE1aEmWffLKv0yYO05x 35h5wbTUR71deoFmLEzd4dsYyEUEW/TJQpKsajdA19fLWkJWWvH9Z1KG+CV/w9vp31b3 Z+dSeYbPoQiLA9ZIACefYADe43MrupCVqEj5VXRnkPKl1MKHyEjC6j+Uz5U30v5NCpju n+YA== d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=YCDysZoc0ZVv7j5ZdDSu9X+/Yte18o6uTeOgqgCALDw=; b=d+UZaWDto/xPgvNMklIkyGmyKHEnXwxBknXR2vFDX8pbJu1+KHRD0xZHW9mQXVWITy D6DV55A38+OsSFWVN+1sJhw88RteigXLn3DHYRQRrHmjzB80aXNXZFNVyCh02/TPYLRo NDEJV5F0Du2InxDKlc8g28IGLJYmxsQKK3CeFmWBQNRigMoof9WfCC5gTXsIIDg1cY+8 PsSX8iC+b6w8wPRS5/Sd7TMao1xFZd75Ucto11+wyT7Sb8Z0tVR1Nv9911ByRajgNsZG KPH6p1Ir45ccslb2JvdUBN9LmmmpitxesIEcQTkuJlfDIPkSkaDk2B1zLWwElFeWOMmn GT2w== qkFbaZUrG49OtXGTFibhRmQ= l1-20020ac87241000000b003a6a5c3fd28mr38850qtp.35.1670870362459; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:39:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([76.164.52.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y6-20020ac87086000000b0039cb59f00fcsm6198731qto.30.2022.12.12.10.39.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:39:22 -0800 (PST) From: Arvid Jedlicka Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:39:09 -0600 To: eric@megageek.com References: <5C5684CE-BFDB-4B82-B1E2-5BA1608D25AD@icloud.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============5362376542346296443== boundary="Apple-Mail=_F14C2C64-E97F-4608-BA08-FF7595326942" --Apple-Mail=_F14C2C64-E97F-4608-BA08-FF7595326942 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable charset=utf-8 My thoughts =E2=80=A6 The clutch is out. It was not stated but I will assume the engine is = running. If the assumption is not correct then any thoughts that this = whole process is a =E2=80=98good thing=E2=80=99 should not be = entertained. Given that the clutch is out and the engine is running then the input = shaft is turning. Given that the input shaft is turning then the counter-shaft is turning = =E2=80=A6 at least slowly. Given that the center-shaft is turning then the gears that float on the = output shaft are turning and getting some lubrication picked up from the = counter-shaft. Yes, they are turning at a different speed than the = output shaft, but that is what those not engaged via the = synchronizer\gear selector hub to the output shaft at any given time do = for most of their lives anyway. Given that the output shaft is turning (the driveshaft has not been = disconnected) then everything is turning, which is exactly whey they do = when it is in gear and rolling. IMHO =E2=80=A6 no harm to the transmission. By the same token, no = anti-harm (i.e. no advantage\saving) to the transmission, but no harm. As mentioned, the brakes may want to file a (rational and reasonable) = complaint, but the transmission would be fine with it =E2=80=A6 but very = likely be fine with it either way.=20 > On Dec 12, 2022, at 11:28 AM, Pat Horne wrote: >=20 > In general, I don=E2=80=99t see any problem. However I recall = something similar decades ago where a tow truck driver did a two wheel = haul on a car that was very low on trans fluid. After a long tow the = trans bearings heated up & seized. Can=E2=80=99t say for sure that = really happened or not.=20 >=20 > Peace, > Pat >=20 > Pat Horne=20 > We support Habitat for Humanity >=20 >=20 > On Dec 12, 2022, at 10:05 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from = the real experts here.=20 >=20 > If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch = while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are = you doing any damage?=20 >=20 > I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with = the clutch release.=20 >=20 > Any thoughts?=20 >=20 > Moose_______________________________________________ >=20 > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk = http://autox.team.net/archive >=20 > Unsubscribe/Manage: = http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas@icloud.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ >=20 > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk = http://autox.team.net/archive >=20 > Unsubscribe/Manage: = http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj999@gmail.com >=20 --Apple-Mail=_F14C2C64-E97F-4608-BA08-FF7595326942 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable charset=utf-8 My thoughts = =E2=80=A6

The clutch is out. It was not stated but I = will assume the engine is running. If the assumption is not correct then = any thoughts that this whole process is a =E2=80=98good thing=E2=80=99 = should not be entertained.

Given that the = clutch is out and the engine is running then the input shaft is = turning.

Given that the input shaft is turning = then the counter-shaft is turning =E2=80=A6 at least = slowly.

Given that the center-shaft is turning = then the gears that float on the output shaft are turning and getting = some lubrication picked up from the counter-shaft. Yes, they are turning = at a different speed than the output shaft, but that is what those not = engaged via the synchronizer\gear selector hub to the output shaft at = any given time do for most of their lives = anyway.

Given that the output shaft is turning = (the driveshaft has not been disconnected) then everything is turning, = which is exactly whey they do when it is in gear and = rolling.

IMHO =E2=80=A6 no harm to the = transmission. By the same token, no anti-harm (i.e. no advantage\saving) = to the transmission, but no harm.

As mentioned, = the brakes may want to file a (rational and reasonable) complaint, but = the transmission would be fine with it =E2=80=A6 but very likely be fine = with it either way. 

On = Dec 12, 2022, at 11:28 AM, Pat Horne <patintexas@icloud.com> = wrote:

In general, I don=E2=80=99t see any problem. However I = recall something similar decades ago where a tow truck driver did a two = wheel haul on a car that was very low on trans fluid. After a long tow = the trans bearings heated up & seized. Can=E2=80=99t say for sure = that really happened or = not. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat = Horne 
We support Habitat for = Humanity


On Dec 12, 2022, = at 10:05 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote:

=EF=BB=BFI'm putting = this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here.

If you put a manually car or = truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage?

I'm not worried about fuel = savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release.

Any thoughts?

Moose____________________________________= ___________

Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Donate: = donation  $12.96
Archive: = http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk = http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe= /Manage: = http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas@icloud.com

_________________________________= ______________

Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Donate: =  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk = http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: = http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj999@gmail.com

= --Apple-Mail=_F14C2C64-E97F-4608-BA08-FF7595326942-- --===============5362376542346296443== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============5362376542346296443==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 12 13:21:50 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61365A108C for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 13:21:50 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-lf1-f54.google.com (unknown [209.85.167.54]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B59CA0F01 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:41:22 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-lf1-f54.google.com with SMTP id y25so916483lfa.9 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:41:36 -0800 (PST) h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=N/swai90DF5PYyB2yTfPXYBpzJUwHrojJ3X71iMGV4Q=; b=orXRuDSboS+s+d/UqhE45Ft8z6Vf3U7dHlTzgbgOPPsF/LMoQ6wSoy4V2WQcyiR4z1 JOJxCZjx9T8K0i8KQj0bOdfLT4zrIGb3m41cmMwnb35cgS9vfa2sR/TIjv5Kz5T7UDAn xypUqiWfL8LFUEJET3/OtbCep9NEm/4VQn2meNqO9wW8DEF2D2bjcF5TSyz/YtU3Li50 uI/7shPDCdqOfM0DLv+v5dQTAWyoK+KGxb5nwIUG9TmTd8CqB3HF4UR966rSvNxXdgkz Ai9Wk12cL11GBZI/TS4gL2/fV0k2oSETzmL3/n9nqFQMnXQYyg9PJpRL7IdC5U5rH+6Z Zl9Q== d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=N/swai90DF5PYyB2yTfPXYBpzJUwHrojJ3X71iMGV4Q=; b=2UtG2OyiAlUiP0xClP28i05ZjZ0kq5sFLkuXw8zWKt2Pzbz+hBTPr9sa6hFfMdsP6e /ycAJP/MUZjclR2lPutAZU4mw6Eenoeiffkh49HEkQ4t61KxLBMMMG4HgBHjKdIQ5UMx AouJQUbNfqrVZ7cwdfyVzr98H3ZVMqLTJhyI9w7puuOlxAsHlodgp2/twGYHBgznaGVR E7vit6KQK8z3Nl+o76jcCIyxfHiPO6vzdZWVx9AO7C70yCqdA8pk6ZHMP2XnNtHdjxgW epGNdz+bUFb4oJes5yjoHpn9jlaAPKCZVcoxh0OLnHHIjUzzlkP75fSQTgTHHFna19KX KT3w== 7mXQbbR51IKrSalq36lN3DcdpEidR+gPH2f6QYU= h25-20020a0565123c9900b004b55ec510c0mr8873967lfv.355.1670870495831; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:41:35 -0800 (PST) References: From: Benjamin Zwissler Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 13:40:23 -0500 To: Jeff Scarbrough Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Cc: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============1860551984891940117== --0000000000005ea8ea05efa5dab9 I was taught in drivers ed, now 45 years ago, that in Indiana "coasting" was illegal, as the car was considered out of control. I assumed that the reasoning was if your brakes failed you might not be able to get it back in gear and use engine braking. Seems a moot point these days as modern cars all have synchros and the brakes are much better than they used to be. I do know there's been some fatal hay-ride tractor accidents when the driver coasted, couldn't get the tractor back in gear and the tractor brakes were completely inadequate to stop the tractor and trailer. Ben On Mon, Dec 12, 2022, 12:27 PM Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > It depends. > > 1. Will it get sufficient splash lubrication? > > 2. Will you burn out your brakes holding a coasting car back instead of > letting the engine do the braking? > > I've always heard that at best, it really doesn't help much. > > > -- Jeff > > On Mon, Dec 12, 2022, 11:00 wrote: > >> I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real >> experts here. >> >> If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch >> while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you >> doing any damage? >> >> I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the >> clutch release. >> >> Any thoughts? >> >> Moose_______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk@autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk >> http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate@gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler@gmail.com > > --0000000000005ea8ea05efa5dab9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was taught in drivers ed, now 45 years= ago, that in Indiana "coasting" was illegal, as the car was cons= idered out of control.=C2=A0 I assumed that the reasoning was if your brake= s failed you might not be able to get it back in gear and use engine brakin= g.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Seems a moot point these days as modern cars all have synchr= os and the brakes are much better than they used to be.

I do know there's been some fatal=C2=A0hay-ride trac= tor accidents when the driver coasted, couldn't get the tractor back in= gear and the tractor brakes were completely inadequate to stop the tractor= and trailer.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Ben

On Mon, Dec 12,= 2022, 12:27 PM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate@gmail.com> wrote:
It depends.
1.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Will it get suffic= ient splash lubrication?

2.=C2=A0 Will you burn out your brakes holding a coasting car back instead= of letting the engine do the braking?

I've always heard that at best, it really doesn't he= lp much.


-- Je= ff

= On Mon, Dec 12, 2022, 11:00 <eric@megageek.com> wrote:
I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here.

If you put a manually car or truck= in neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage?

I'm not worried about fuel sav= ings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release.

Any thoughts?

Moose______________________= _________________________

Shop-talk@autox.team.net
errer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/= shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
alk/fishplate@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D= "_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate@gmail.co= m

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk@autox.team.net
errer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

alk/bjzwissler@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">h= ttp://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler@gmail.com

--0000000000005ea8ea05efa5dab9-- --===============1860551984891940117== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============1860551984891940117==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 12 15:08:00 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF45EA0F58 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 15:08:00 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bird.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (unknown [23.83.212.17]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B6CA116C for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:59:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7E13E1D3D for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 19:00:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a267.dreamhost.com (unknown [127.0.0.6]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 262BF3E1BB7 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 19:00:04 +0000 (UTC) ARC-Seal: i=1; s=arc-2022; d=mailchannels.net; t=1670871604; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=LODhyFqglZjdensVmNdVdxjzbsywJrsnQ8KgOwOOUljyIqt1ygYEEQ9hpgPIQFtLI8ZSTy ODdAAWo7k0TRMwETrXqxmKF5bTOvS0JkWvTbcZ9Oywzr1mikWbgwbexL9HSQM3//y3cnmV ub/TEk0XX1NqRbF/gkgAB7qkt9rgppQdAyIOCpBnC3l0hrgjAPHrKn61QhGjFiQBpilJ1e Ricmjy3ExupOQEyAxV/AbDAA7aVvyS16PAtxfaQCW6rhuaLeUnjn8u1lxK7CfWEvHdGEGc EX/liBlS/VMTNwLylkQrihK00RJQZ6oH/euDBynjRs4liGHeycwKGhTIP4Ut6Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailchannels.net; s=arc-2022; t=1670871604; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: bh=kIH1uhHeimUgkwBfaOZkm8m/8uaHKcCE0UEozTR3Zss=; b=sKMr9y5NYVbf3ECN7IOdKAOxZwxOY03T37h8B0ZeTRIogwbbPhjPReOnaDrEI8ZBEUvmFM C+Al1iuwzT7gnjH9tR1BiVNwu8zW5pl1V22Vx2VzGbNG2ebqVRRfJxV+IBPhyGmNUAo0+t Jm07WknfDWYhxi92wwKhoJoA1E71z/9mmyfeFItps/BYsrNfaZXQKFTnMjfFYb451VrQ25 9Mjr/ttIpJaj106Ib+8G5H6iEKONCSOKGZe9nAc1htOUxKBdiq5SF3fGH3xJ/nLFZYtuaS v22ctC3Nd3ZViBfCFs9TqVyqpdjTGsmqEAumrBcJZwmX2OSlSwHyOSiN+YQUmw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; rspamd-85f95c7974-c7r2q; auth=pass smtp.auth=dreamhost smtp.mailfrom=jem@milleredp.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a267.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by 100.116.179.114 (trex/6.7.1); Mon, 12 Dec 2022 19:00:04 +0000 Received: from [10.1.2.207] (c-67-161-16-174.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.161.16.174]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jem@milleredp.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a267.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4NW9tC4XfyzFX for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:00:03 -0800 (PST) s=dreamhost; t=1670871603; bh=kIH1uhHeimUgkwBfaOZkm8m/8uaHKcCE0UEozTR3Zss=; h=Date:Subject:To:From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Id7mXQYKB2n2RGe669jqrwc6QT24S1c7aFSgQy8Vx6Sr956igzsurbMQyoYlT4Qzz nXo/cQWo3dvs6raJRYOMx3IGqF+ZsFT86Hg3KcfJl4sYOeWqI66CMM5D0VU4uXnyhd r5dqLHnlyeI84yPE28qMkDHpdnMtTGKQOy4lOm6zpAzY3XnFQK+IMzUeM1sGBDYR/E PfOpGmwpHFed3NMIcXNeFByrh0V1xlnd18pwyX5XOGKAlxPD03jIli8xObBBI+avjl fEVv6urUGPMvJD73z5l+eSdUpzXGgIMo5RqwBL2MseCZlFYMFz+W56C6QnCP/0RJ6D ycsZnig8H+UCQ== Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:59:02 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.5.1 Content-Language: en-US To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <20221212185226.EF06DA0F58@autox.team.net> From: John Miller Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 12/12/2022 9:46 AM, John T. Blair wrote: > One other point. Speaking of releasing the clutch, when you pull up > to a traffic light or have to stop for any reason, you should put the > xmission in neutral, let out the clutch. Keeping the clutch depress > puts wear on the throwout bearing and cause a premature failure. That depends on the bearing and on the time involved. I've known people who put AUTOMATICS IN NEUTRAL at a stop. Never mind the time lag, never mind the shock-loading on the drivetrain getting back into gear... The modern start-stop crap...there's gonna be vast numbers of vehicles scrapped because ring gear wear. Not to mention they're just crap to drive that way. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 12 15:51:13 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B07AA0FAE for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 15:51:13 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-40133.protonmail.ch (unknown [185.70.40.133]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27552A0AEE for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:39:28 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 19:39:36 +0000 s=protonmail3; t=1670873981; x=1671133181; bh=Zfd5BH7SU9mljnSY3JbmixzeUU94hNttGu6/Vb27Jac=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=b1vTSfn5FSAI7Y8BJwrhRf9QDyeqEarZseOydDmxqU0DSpd9FmC7yck5MtCW3Utbk PRjKs51N7ZbIQZBBmkVwu1ZIMk2v+dGLkl87gVcP2OqIcUEtGPgXoKAlYyR+65PScw w6pJ6vvoF4L5ZmP2Lv5a+DBqSQcgiOvAnZlmZa00ZAWXdhw3dVn73LsYN4/fH5bG3F 8MJKD5A8v3Qm3xM0x9VuXlAk9rMhZfUEDTXfyp1a8wNHWb8xqscyek3lkfQbF2CHsO JJnsDkz0Qj1x6k0Ztd4ARcEFot98hk5scqfS6HTGZI7hMv+yvXquKNz5A21rK30kDY foaYE80WIgjtg== To: shop-talk@autox.team.net From: Donald H Locker References: <20221212184527.9917BA113D@autox.team.net> Feedback-ID: 21814894:user:proton Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============8412038961173144568== boundary="b1_EnmliLU1Qub4UOTokI1el7NQQxG7kHxvqlAoN9TGKs" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --b1_EnmliLU1Qub4UOTokI1el7NQQxG7kHxvqlAoN9TGKs Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SG9sZGluZyBpbiB0aGUgY2x1dGNoIHBlZGFsIHdoaWxlIGlkbGluZyBhbHNvIHB1dHMgdW5uZWNl c3NhcnkgbG9hZCBvbiB0aGUgdGhydXN0IGJlYXJpbmdzLgoKRG9uYWxkLgoKT24gMTIvMTIvMjIg MTI6NDYsIEpvaG4gVC4gQmxhaXIgd3JvdGU6Cgo+IEF0IDEwOjE1IEFNIDEyLzEyLzIwMjIsIGVy aWNAbWVnYWdlZWsuY29tIHdyb3RlOgo+Cj4+SSdtIHB1dHRpbmcgdGhpcyBvdXQgdG8gdGhlIGdy b3VwIHRvIGdldCBzb21lIG9waW5pb25zIGZyb20gdGhlIHJlYWwgZXhwZXJ0cyBoZXJlLgo+Pgo+ PklmIHlvdSBwdXQgYSBtYW51YWxseSBjYXIgb3IgdHJ1Y2sgaW4gbmV1dHJhbCBhbmQgcmVsZWFz ZSB0aGUgY2x1dGNoIHdoaWxlIGdvaW5nIGRvd24gbG9uZyA+aGlsbHMgb3IgY29taW5nIHRvIGEg c3RvcCBhdCBhIGludGVyc2VjdGlvbiwgYXJlIHlvdSBkb2luZyBhbnkgZGFtYWdlPwo+Pgo+Pkkn bSBub3Qgd29ycmllZCBhYm91dCBmdWVsIHNhdmluZ3MsIGp1c3QgaXMgY29hc3RpbmcgaW4gbmV1 dHJhbCB3aXRoIHRoZSBjbHV0Y2ggcmVsZWFzZS4KPgo+IE1vb3NlLAo+Cj4gQXMgbG9uZyBhcyB5 b3UgcmVsZWFzZSB0aGUgY2x1dGNoLCBJIGNhbid0IHNlZSB3aGVyZSB5b3UncmUgZG9pbmcgYW55 IGhhcm0uIE1vc3QKPiBtYW51YWwgWG1pc3Npb25zIGFyZSBzcGxhc2ggbHViZXJpY2F0ZWQgc28g aXQncyBnZXR0aW5nIHRoZSBwcm9wZXIgYW1vdW5kIG9mIGx1Ygo+IGZvciB0aGUgc3BlZWQuIFRo ZSBlbmdpbmUgaXMgZ2V0dGluZyBpdCdzIHJlcXVpcmVkIGx1YiBhcyBpdCBpcyBOT1QgY29ubmVj dGVkIHRvIHRoZQo+IHhtaXNzaW9uLgo+Cj4gVGhhdCBzYWlkLCBlc3BlY2lhbGx5IGdvaW5nIGRv d24gaGlsbCwgSSBkb24ndCB0aGluayBpdCdzIGEgZ29vZCBpZGVhLiBBbmQgSSd2ZSBiZWVuCj4g dG9sZCB0aGF0IGluIGEgbG90IG9mIHN0YXRlcyBpdCdzIGlsbGVnYWwgdG8gY29hc3QgaW4gbmV1 dHJhbCB0byBsaWdodHMsIGV0Yy4gVGhlIHJlYXNvbgo+IGJlaW5nIGlzIHlvdSBkb24ndCBuZWNl c3NhcmlseSBoYXZlICJwb3NpdGl2ZSIgY29udHJvbCBvdmVyIHRoZSB2ZWNoaWxlLiBJJ3ZlIGRv bmUKPiBpdCBtYW55IHRpbWVzLCBhbmQgbmVlZGVkIHRvIHNldCBvbiB0aGUgZ2FzIGFuZCBmb3Jn b3QgdGhhdCBpdCB3YXMgb3V0IG9mIGdlYXIuCj4gTHVja2lseSwgYXMgdGhlIHJwbXMgaW5jcmVh c2VkIGFuZCB0aGUgc3BlZWQgZGlkbid0IEkgcmVhbGl6ZWQgd2hhdCB3YXMgd3JvbmcgYW5kCj4g dG9vayBteSBmb290IG9mZiB0aGUgZ2FzLiBCdXQgaWYgSSBoYWQgcmVhbGx5IG5lZWRlZCB0byBz dG9tcCB0aGUgZ2FzLCBJIHdvdWxkCj4gaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGluIHRyb3VibGUuCj4KPiBCdXQgd2hl biBJJ3ZlIHNsb3dlZCBkb3duIGNvbmNpZGVyYWJseSwgSSBkbyBxdWl0ZSBvZnRlbiBwdXQgdGhl IGNhciBpbiBuZXV0cmFsIGFuZAo+IHJlbGVhc2UgdGhlIGNsdXRjaCBhbmQgY29hc3QgaW50byB0 aGUgbGlnaHQuCj4KPiBPbmUgb3RoZXIgcG9pbnQuIFNwZWFraW5nIG9mIHJlbGVhc2luZyB0aGUg Y2x1dGNoLCB3aGVuIHlvdSBwdWxsIHVwIHRvIGEgdHJhZmZpYyBsaWdodAo+IG9yIGhhdmUgdG8g c3RvcCBmb3IgYW55IHJlYXNvbiwgeW91IHNob3VsZCBwdXQgdGhlIHhtaXNzaW9uIGluIG5ldXRy YWwsIGxldCBvdXQgdGhlCj4gY2x1dGNoLiBLZWVwaW5nIHRoZSBjbHV0Y2ggZGVwcmVzcyBwdXRz IHdlYXIgb24gdGhlIHRocm93b3V0IGJlYXJpbmcgYW5kIGNhdXNlCj4gYSBwcmVtYXR1cmUgZmFp bHVyZS4KPgo+IEpvaG4KPgo+PiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fXwo+Pgo+PiBTaG9wLXRhbGtAYXV0b3gudGVhbS5uZXQKPj4gRG9uYXRlOiBodHRw Oi8vd3d3LnRlYW0ubmV0L2RvbmF0ZS5odG1sCj4+IFN1Z2dlc3RlZCBhbm51YWwgZG9uYXRpb24g JDEyLjk2Cj4+IEFyY2hpdmU6IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cudGVhbS5uZXQvcGlwZXJtYWlsL3Nob3AtdGFs ayBodHRwOi8vYXV0b3gudGVhbS5uZXQvYXJjaGl2ZQo+Pgo+PiBVbnN1YnNjcmliZS9NYW5hZ2U6 IGh0dHA6Ly9hdXRveC50ZWFtLm5ldC9tYWlsbWFuL29wdGlvbnMvc2hvcC10YWxrL2pibGFpcjE5 NDhAY294Lm5ldAo+Cj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYXZhc3QuY29tL3NpZy1lbWFpbD91dG1fbWVkaXVt PWVtYWlsJnV0bV9zb3VyY2U9bGluayZ1dG1fY2FtcGFpZ249c2lnLWVtYWlsJnV0bV9jb250ZW50 PWVtYWlsY2xpZW50JnV0bV90ZXJtPWljb24JVmlydXMtZnJlZS4gW3d3dy5hdmFzdC5jb21dKGh0 dHBzOi8vd3d3LmF2YXN0LmNvbS9zaWctZW1haWw/dXRtX21lZGl1bT1lbWFpbCZ1dG1fc291cmNl PWxpbmsmdXRtX2NhbXBhaWduPXNpZy1lbWFpbCZ1dG1fY29udGVudD1lbWFpbGNsaWVudCZ1dG1f dGVybT1saW5rKSAjREFCNEZBRDgtMkRENy00MEJCLUExQjgtNEUyQUExRjlGREYyCj4KPiBKb2hu IFQuIEJsYWlyIFdBNE9IWiBlbWFpbDogamJsYWlyMTk0OEBjb3gubmV0Cj4gVmEuIEJlYWNoLCBW YSBQaG9uZTogKDc1NykgNDk1LTgyMjkKPgo+IDQ4IFRSMTgwMCA0OCAjNCBNaWRnZXQgNjUgTW9y Z2FuIDQvNCBTZXJpZXMgViAoQjExMDYpCj4gNzUgQnJpY2tsaW4gU1YxICgjMDg4NykgNzcgU3Bp dGZpcmUgNzEgU2FhYiBTb25ldHQgSUlJCj4gNjUgUmFtYmxlciBDbGFzc2ljCj4KPiBNb3JnYW46 IGh0dHA6Ly9hdXRveC50ZWFtLm5ldC9tb3JnYW4vCj4gQnJpY2tsaW46IFtodHRwOi8vd3d3LmJy aWNrbGluLm9yZ10oaHR0cDovL3d3dy5icmlja2xpbi5vcmcvKQo+Cj4gSWYgeW91IGNhbiByZWFk IHRoaXMgLSBUaGFuayBhIHRlYWNoZXIhCj4gSWYgeW91IGFyZSByZWFkaW5nIGl0IGluIEVuZ2xp c2ggLSBUaGFuayBhIFZldCEhCj4KPiBGcm9tIERlbm5pcyBQcmFnZXIgLSBUaGUgQW1lcmljYW4g VHJpbG9neToKPiBlIHBsdXJpYnVzIFVudW0sICJmcm9tIG1hbnksIG9uZS4iCj4gSW4gR29kIFdl IFRydXN0Cj4gTGliZXJ0eSAtIHRoZSBwb3dlciBvZiBjaG9vc2luZywgdGhpbmtpbmcsIGFuZCBh Y3RpbmcgZm9yCj4gb25lc2VsZjsgZnJlZWRvbSBmcm9tIGNvbnRyb2wgb3IgcmVzdHJpY3Rpb24= --b1_EnmliLU1Qub4UOTokI1el7NQQxG7kHxvqlAoN9TGKs Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWw+PGhlYWQ+DQogICAgPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50 PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9VVRGLTgiLz4NCiAgPC9oZWFkPg0KICA8Ym9keSB0ZXh0PSIj MDAwMDAwIiBiZ2NvbG9yPSIjRkZGRkZGIj4NCiAgICA8cD5Ib2xkaW5nIGluIHRoZSBjbHV0Y2gg cGVkYWwgd2hpbGUgaWRsaW5nIGFsc28gcHV0cyB1bm5lY2Vzc2FyeQ0KICAgICAgbG9hZCBvbiB0 aGUgdGhydXN0IGJlYXJpbmdzLjwvcD4NCiAgICA8cD5Eb25hbGQuPGJyLz4NCiAgICA8L3A+DQog ICAgPGRpdiBjbGFzcz0ibW96LWNpdGUtcHJlZml4Ij5PbiAxMi8xMi8yMiAxMjo0NiwgSm9obiBU LiBCbGFpciB3cm90ZTo8YnIvPg0KICAgIDwvZGl2Pg0KICAgIDxibG9ja3F1b3RlIHR5cGU9ImNp dGUiIGNpdGU9Im1pZDoyMDIyMTIxMjE4NDUyNy45OTE3QkExMTNEQGF1dG94LnRlYW0ubmV0Ij4N CiAgICAgIDxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9ImNvbnRlbnQtdHlwZSIgY29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1s OyBjaGFyc2V0PVVURi04Ii8+DQogICAgICA8Zm9udCBzaXplPSIzIj5BdCAxMDoxNSBBTSAxMi8x Mi8yMDIyLCA8YSBjbGFzcz0ibW96LXR4dC1saW5rLWFiYnJldmlhdGVkIiBocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86 ZXJpY0BtZWdhZ2Vlay5jb20iPmVyaWNAbWVnYWdlZWsuY29tPC9hPiB3cm90ZTo8YnIvPg0KICAg ICAgICA8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICAmZ3Q7PC9mb250Pjxmb250IHNpemU9IjIiPkkmIzM5O20gcHV0 dGluZyB0aGlzIG91dCB0byB0aGUgZ3JvdXAgdG8NCiAgICAgICAgZ2V0IHNvbWUNCiAgICAgICAg b3BpbmlvbnMgZnJvbSB0aGUgcmVhbCBleHBlcnRzIGhlcmUuPC9mb250Pjxmb250IHNpemU9IjMi PiA8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICAmZ3Q7PGJyLz4NCiAgICAgICAgJmd0OzwvZm9udD48Zm9udCBzaXpl PSIyIj5JZiB5b3UgcHV0IGEgbWFudWFsbHkgY2FyIG9yIHRydWNrIGluDQogICAgICAgIG5ldXRy YWwgYW5kDQogICAgICAgIHJlbGVhc2UgdGhlIGNsdXRjaCB3aGlsZSBnb2luZyBkb3duIGxvbmcg PGJyLz4NCiAgICAgIDwvZm9udD48Zm9udCBzaXplPSIzIj4mZ3Q7PC9mb250Pjxmb250IHNpemU9 IjIiPmhpbGxzIG9yIGNvbWluZyB0bw0KICAgICAgICBhIHN0b3AgYXQNCiAgICAgICAgYSBpbnRl cnNlY3Rpb24sIGFyZSB5b3UgZG9pbmcgYW55IGRhbWFnZT88L2ZvbnQ+PGZvbnQgc2l6ZT0iMyI+ DQogICAgICAgIDxici8+DQogICAgICAgICZndDs8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICAmZ3Q7PC9mb250Pjxm b250IHNpemU9IjIiPkkmIzM5O20gbm90IHdvcnJpZWQgYWJvdXQgZnVlbCBzYXZpbmdzLA0KICAg ICAgICBqdXN0IGlzDQogICAgICAgIGNvYXN0aW5nIGluIG5ldXRyYWwgd2l0aCB0aGUgY2x1dGNo IHJlbGVhc2UuPC9mb250Pjxmb250IHNpemU9IjMiPg0KICAgICAgICA8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICA8 YnIvPg0KICAgICAgPC9mb250Pjxmb250IHNpemU9IjIiPk1vb3NlPC9mb250Pjxmb250IHNpemU9 IjMiPiw8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICA8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICBBcyBsb25nIGFzIHlvdSByZWxlYXNl IHRoZSBjbHV0Y2gsIEkgY2FuJiMzOTt0IHNlZSB3aGVyZSB5b3UmIzM5O3JlDQogICAgICAgIGRv aW5nIGFueQ0KICAgICAgICBoYXJtLsKgIE1vc3Q8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICBtYW51YWwgWG1pc3Np b25zIGFyZSBzcGxhc2ggbHViZXJpY2F0ZWQgc28gaXQmIzM5O3MgZ2V0dGluZyB0aGUNCiAgICAg ICAgcHJvcGVyIGFtb3VuZA0KICAgICAgICBvZiBsdWI8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICBmb3IgdGhlIHNw ZWVkLsKgIFRoZSBlbmdpbmUgaXMgZ2V0dGluZyBpdCYjMzk7cyByZXF1aXJlZCBsdWIgYXMgaXQg aXMNCiAgICAgICAgTk9UDQogICAgICAgIGNvbm5lY3RlZCB0byB0aGU8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICB4 bWlzc2lvbi48YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICA8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICBUaGF0IHNhaWQsIGVzcGVjaWFs bHkgZ29pbmcgZG93biBoaWxsLCBJIGRvbiYjMzk7dCB0aGluayBpdCYjMzk7cyBhIGdvb2QNCiAg ICAgICAgaWRlYS7CoCBBbmQgSSYjMzk7dmUgYmVlbiA8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICB0b2xkIHRoYXQg aW4gYSBsb3Qgb2Ygc3RhdGVzIGl0JiMzOTtzIGlsbGVnYWwgdG8gY29hc3QgaW4gbmV1dHJhbCB0 bw0KICAgICAgICBsaWdodHMsDQogICAgICAgIGV0Yy7CoCBUaGUgcmVhc29uPGJyLz4NCiAgICAg ICAgYmVpbmcgaXMgeW91IGRvbiYjMzk7dCBuZWNlc3NhcmlseSBoYXZlICYjMzQ7cG9zaXRpdmUm IzM0OyBjb250cm9sIG92ZXIgdGhlDQogICAgICAgIHZlY2hpbGUuwqAgSSYjMzk7dmUgZG9uZTxi ci8+DQogICAgICAgIGl0IG1hbnkgdGltZXMsIGFuZCBuZWVkZWQgdG8gc2V0IG9uIHRoZSBnYXMg YW5kIGZvcmdvdCB0aGF0IGl0DQogICAgICAgIHdhcyBvdXQgb2YNCiAgICAgICAgZ2Vhci48YnIv Pg0KICAgICAgICBMdWNraWx5LCBhcyB0aGUgcnBtcyBpbmNyZWFzZWQgYW5kIHRoZSBzcGVlZCBk aWRuJiMzOTt0IEkgcmVhbGl6ZWQNCiAgICAgICAgd2hhdCB3YXMNCiAgICAgICAgd3JvbmcgYW5k PGJyLz4NCiAgICAgICAgdG9vayBteSBmb290IG9mZiB0aGUgZ2FzLsKgIEJ1dCBpZiBJIGhhZCBy ZWFsbHkgbmVlZGVkIHRvIHN0b21wDQogICAgICAgIHRoZQ0KICAgICAgICBnYXMsIEkgd291bGQg PGJyLz4NCiAgICAgICAgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGluIHRyb3VibGUuwqAgPGJyLz4NCiAgICAgICAgPGJy Lz4NCiAgICAgICAgQnV0IHdoZW4gSSYjMzk7dmUgc2xvd2VkIGRvd24gY29uY2lkZXJhYmx5LCBJ IGRvIHF1aXRlIG9mdGVuIHB1dCB0aGUNCiAgICAgICAgY2FyIGluDQogICAgICAgIG5ldXRyYWwg YW5kPGJyLz4NCiAgICAgICAgcmVsZWFzZSB0aGUgY2x1dGNoIGFuZCBjb2FzdCBpbnRvIHRoZSBs aWdodC48YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICA8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICBPbmUgb3RoZXIgcG9pbnQuwqAgU3Bl YWtpbmcgb2YgcmVsZWFzaW5nIHRoZSBjbHV0Y2gsIHdoZW4geW91DQogICAgICAgIHB1bGwgdXAN CiAgICAgICAgdG8gYSB0cmFmZmljIGxpZ2h0PGJyLz4NCiAgICAgICAgb3IgaGF2ZSB0byBzdG9w IGZvciBhbnkgcmVhc29uLCB5b3Ugc2hvdWxkIHB1dCB0aGUgeG1pc3Npb24gaW4NCiAgICAgICAg bmV1dHJhbCwNCiAgICAgICAgbGV0IG91dCB0aGU8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICBjbHV0Y2guwqAgS2Vl cGluZyB0aGUgY2x1dGNoIGRlcHJlc3MgcHV0c8KgIHdlYXIgb24gdGhlIHRocm93b3V0DQogICAg ICAgIGJlYXJpbmcgYW5kIGNhdXNlPGJyLz4NCiAgICAgICAgYSBwcmVtYXR1cmUgZmFpbHVyZS48 YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICA8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICBKb2huPGJyLz4NCiAgICAgICAgPGJyLz4NCiAg ICAgICAgPGJyLz4NCiAgICAgIDwvZm9udD4NCiAgICAgIDxibG9ja3F1b3RlIHR5cGU9ImNpdGUi IGNsYXNzPSJjaXRlIiBjaXRlPSIiPjxmb250IHNpemU9IjMiPg0KICAgICAgICAgIF9fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fPGJyLz4NCiAgICAgICAgICA8 YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICAgIDxhIGNsYXNzPSJtb3otdHh0LWxpbmstYWJicmV2aWF0ZWQiIGhyZWY9 Im1haWx0bzpTaG9wLXRhbGtAYXV0b3gudGVhbS5uZXQiPlNob3AtdGFsa0BhdXRveC50ZWFtLm5l dDwvYT48YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICAgIERvbmF0ZToNCiAgICAgICAgICA8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwOi8v d3d3LnRlYW0ubmV0L2RvbmF0ZS5odG1sIiBldWRvcmE9ImF1dG91cmwiIG1vei1kby1ub3Qtc2Vu ZD0idHJ1ZSIgY2xhc3M9Im1vei10eHQtbGluay1mcmVldGV4dCI+DQogICAgICAgICAgICBodHRw Oi8vd3d3LnRlYW0ubmV0L2RvbmF0ZS5odG1sPC9hPjxici8+DQogICAgICAgICAgU3VnZ2VzdGVk IGFubnVhbCBkb25hdGlvbsKgICQxMi45Njxici8+DQogICAgICAgICAgQXJjaGl2ZToNCiAgICAg ICAgICA8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwOi8vd3d3LnRlYW0ubmV0L3BpcGVybWFpbC9zaG9wLXRhbGsiIGV1 ZG9yYT0iYXV0b3VybCIgbW96LWRvLW5vdC1zZW5kPSJ0cnVlIiBjbGFzcz0ibW96LXR4dC1saW5r LWZyZWV0ZXh0Ij4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cudGVhbS5uZXQvcGlwZXJtYWlsL3No b3AtdGFsazwvYT4NCiAgICAgICAgICA8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwOi8vYXV0b3gudGVhbS5uZXQvYXJj aGl2ZSIgZXVkb3JhPSJhdXRvdXJsIiBtb3otZG8tbm90LXNlbmQ9InRydWUiIGNsYXNzPSJtb3ot dHh0LWxpbmstZnJlZXRleHQiPg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgaHR0cDovL2F1dG94LnRlYW0ubmV0L2Fy Y2hpdmU8L2E+PGJyLz4NCiAgICAgICAgICA8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgICAgIFVuc3Vic2NyaWJlL01h bmFnZToNCiAgICAgICAgICA8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwOi8vYXV0b3gudGVhbS5uZXQvbWFpbG1hbi9v cHRpb25zL3Nob3AtdGFsay9qYmxhaXIxOTQ4QGNveC5uZXQiIGV1ZG9yYT0iYXV0b3VybCIgbW96 LWRvLW5vdC1zZW5kPSJ0cnVlIiBjbGFzcz0ibW96LXR4dC1saW5rLWZyZWV0ZXh0Ij4NCmh0dHA6 Ly9hdXRveC50ZWFtLm5ldC9tYWlsbWFuL29wdGlvbnMvc2hvcC10YWxrL2pibGFpcjE5NDhAY294 Lm5ldDwvYT4NCiAgICAgICAgPC9mb250PjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT4NCiAgICAgIDxkaXYgaWQ9IkRB QjRGQUQ4LTJERDctNDBCQi1BMUI4LTRFMkFBMUY5RkRGMiI+PGJyLz4NCiAgICAgICAgPHRhYmxl IHN0eWxlPSJib3JkZXItdG9wOiAxcHggc29saWQgI0QzRDRERTsiPg0KICAgICAgICAgIDx0Ym9k eT4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgIDx0cj4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgPHRkIHN0eWxlPSJ3aWR0aDogNTVw eDsgcGFkZGluZy10b3A6IDEzcHg7Ij48YSBocmVmPSJodHRwczovL3d3dy5hdmFzdC5jb20vc2ln LWVtYWlsP3V0bV9tZWRpdW09ZW1haWwmYW1wO3V0bV9zb3VyY2U9bGluayZhbXA7dXRtX2NhbXBh aWduPXNpZy1lbWFpbCZhbXA7dXRtX2NvbnRlbnQ9ZW1haWxjbGllbnQmYW1wO3V0bV90ZXJtPWlj b24iIHRhcmdldD0iX2JsYW5rIiBtb3otZG8tbm90LXNlbmQ9InRydWUiPjxpbWcgc3JjPSJodHRw czovL2lwbWNkbi5hdmFzdC5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2ljb25zL2ljb24tZW52ZWxvcGUtdGljay1yb3Vu ZC1vcmFuZ2UtYW5pbWF0ZWQtbm8tcmVwZWF0LXYxLmdpZiIgYWx0PSIiIHN0eWxlPSJ3aWR0aDog NDZweDsgaGVpZ2h0OiAyOXB4OyIgbW96LWRvLW5vdC1zZW5kPSJ0cnVlIiB3aWR0aD0iNDYiIGhl aWdodD0iMjkiLz48L2E+PC90ZD4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgPHRkIHN0eWxlPSJ3aWR0aDogNDcw cHg7IHBhZGRpbmctdG9wOiAxMnB4OyBjb2xvcjoNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAjNDE0MjRlOyBm b250LXNpemU6IDEzcHg7IGZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiBBcmlhbCwgSGVsdmV0aWNhLA0KICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgIHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7IGxpbmUtaGVpZ2h0OiAxOHB4OyI+VmlydXMtZnJlZS4gPGEgaHJl Zj0iaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYXZhc3QuY29tL3NpZy1lbWFpbD91dG1fbWVkaXVtPWVtYWlsJmFtcDt1 dG1fc291cmNlPWxpbmsmYW1wO3V0bV9jYW1wYWlnbj1zaWctZW1haWwmYW1wO3V0bV9jb250ZW50 PWVtYWlsY2xpZW50JmFtcDt1dG1fdGVybT1saW5rIiB0YXJnZXQ9Il9ibGFuayIgc3R5bGU9ImNv bG9yOiAjNDQ1M2VhOyIgbW96LWRvLW5vdC1zZW5kPSJ0cnVlIj53d3cuYXZhc3QuY29tPC9hPiA8 L3RkPg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgPC90cj4NCiAgICAgICAgICA8L3Rib2R5Pg0KICAgICAgICA8L3Rh YmxlPg0KICAgICAgICA8YSBocmVmPSIjREFCNEZBRDgtMkRENy00MEJCLUExQjgtNEUyQUExRjlG REYyIiB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiBtb3otZG8tbm90LXNlbmQ9InRydWUiPiA8L2E+PC9k aXY+DQogICAgICA8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgPGJyLz4NCiAgICAgIDxici8+DQogICAgICA8ZGl2Pkpv aG4gVC4gQmxhaXLCoCBXQTRPSFrCoMKgwqDCoCBlbWFpbDrCoA0KICAgICAgICA8YSBjbGFzcz0i bW96LXR4dC1saW5rLWFiYnJldmlhdGVkIiBocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86amJsYWlyMTk0OEBjb3gubmV0 Ij5qYmxhaXIxOTQ4QGNveC5uZXQ8L2E+PC9kaXY+DQogICAgICA8ZGl2PlZhLiBCZWFjaCwNCiAg ICAgICAgVmHCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgDQogICAgICAgIFBob25l OsKgICg3NTcpIDQ5NS04MjI5PC9kaXY+DQogICAgICA8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgPGRpdj7CoMKgwqDC oMKgwqDCoMKgwqAgNDgNCiAgICAgICAgVFIxODAwwqDCoMKgIDQ4ICM0IE1pZGdldMKgwqDCoCA2 NSBNb3JnYW4gNC80DQogICAgICAgIFNlcmllcyBWIChCMTEwNik8L2Rpdj4NCiAgICAgIDxkaXY+ wqDCoMKgwqAgNzUgQnJpY2tsaW4gU1YxICgjMDg4NynCoMKgwqANCiAgICAgICAgNzcgU3BpdGZp cmXCoMKgwqAgNzEgU2FhYiBTb25ldHQgSUlJPC9kaXY+DQogICAgICA8ZGl2Pg0KICAgICAgICDC oMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoA0KICAgICAgICA2NSBS YW1ibGVyIENsYXNzaWM8L2Rpdj4NCiAgICAgIDxici8+DQogICAgICA8ZGl2Pk1vcmdhbjrCoMKg wqANCiAgICAgICAgPGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL2F1dG94LnRlYW0ubmV0L21vcmdhbi8iIGV1ZG9y YT0iQVVUT1VSTCIgbW96LWRvLW5vdC1zZW5kPSJ0cnVlIiBjbGFzcz0ibW96LXR4dC1saW5rLWZy ZWV0ZXh0Ij4NCiAgICAgICAgICBodHRwOi8vYXV0b3gudGVhbS5uZXQvbW9yZ2FuLzwvYT48L2Rp dj4NCiAgICAgIDxkaXY+QnJpY2tsaW46wqDCoMKgwqANCiAgICAgICAgPGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDov L3d3dy5icmlja2xpbi5vcmcvIiBldWRvcmE9IkFVVE9VUkwiIG1vei1kby1ub3Qtc2VuZD0idHJ1 ZSIgY2xhc3M9Im1vei10eHQtbGluay1mcmVldGV4dCI+DQogICAgICAgICAgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5i cmlja2xpbi5vcmc8L2E+PC9kaXY+DQogICAgICA8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgPGRpdj5JZiB5b3UgY2Fu IHJlYWQNCiAgICAgICAgdGhpc8KgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoA0KICAgICAgICAtIFRo YW5rIGEgdGVhY2hlciE8L2Rpdj4NCiAgICAgIDxkaXY+SWYgeW91IGFyZSByZWFkaW5nIGl0IGlu IEVuZ2xpc2ggLSBUaGFuayBhIFZldCEhPC9kaXY+DQogICAgICA8YnIvPg0KICAgICAgPGRpdj4g RnJvbSBEZW5uaXMgUHJhZ2VyIC0gVGhlIEFtZXJpY2FuIFRyaWxvZ3k6PC9kaXY+DQogICAgICA8 ZGl2PsKgwqDCoMKgIGUgcGx1cmlidXMgVW51bSwgJiMzNDtmcm9tIG1hbnksDQogICAgICAgIG9u ZS4mIzM0OzwvZGl2Pg0KICAgICAgPGRpdj7CoMKgwqDCoCBJbiBHb2QgV2UgVHJ1c3Q8L2Rpdj4N CiAgICAgIDxkaXY+wqDCoMKgwqAgTGliZXJ0eSAtIHRoZcKgIHBvd2VywqAgb2bCoA0KICAgICAg ICBjaG9vc2luZyzCoCB0aGlua2luZyzCoCBhbmTCoCBhY3RpbmfCoCBmb3LCoCA8L2Rpdj4NCiAg ICAgIDxkaXY+DQogICAgICAgIMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqANCiAg ICAgICAgb25lc2VsZjsgZnJlZWRvbcKgIGZyb23CoCBjb250cm9swqAgb3LCoA0KICAgICAgICBy ZXN0cmljdGlvbsKgIDwvZGl2Pg0KICAgICAgPGJyLz4NCiAgICAgIDxici8+DQogICAgPC9ibG9j a3F1b3RlPg0KDQoNCjwvYm9keT48L2h0bWw+ --b1_EnmliLU1Qub4UOTokI1el7NQQxG7kHxvqlAoN9TGKs-- --===============8412038961173144568== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============8412038961173144568==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 12 20:07:41 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9713A11E7 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 20:07:41 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wm1-f51.google.com (unknown [209.85.128.51]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 818B0A055C for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 18:43:13 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-wm1-f51.google.com with SMTP id ja17so4309084wmb.3 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 17:43:28 -0800 (PST) h=cc:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=sVudRFT28/uMv/GKOzx8bMXnCqqMK051Cm9wSUVWaaQ=; b=ah/ZdcRMgwaTwhYiHdUKhVqPOEOx7RQrwIiUjuvurmoLMG9KBrS/3VTEwupfRV64o8 mAP6AVR6qpSRpVQU3hDLqzUdoK7c1wfWFj4XfmwlO8DjwlbmnQzXa4usBZYjjmhF/HhU MVZVa+z8nYBL5NnSQ4yQjPlgwFfQZ//rwA1DWaIx7rid4Q44uC758wmfVNzJRLYqi2aG ZDxT0wGIoQkZ2w7/AX5cya6nv0YDSn1jgMVjkEORe6pQA22XAo3ImpLQ2Bf4QKMcNr4C ZH/CPFYDTyfFbBHh9VrapAmlWGmzUb3MnA/GMw6Fqfb9pZmW9ylOp3ppBiMJkuVMovUV AhYg== d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=sVudRFT28/uMv/GKOzx8bMXnCqqMK051Cm9wSUVWaaQ=; b=CX5d1EnsZFiT90x2Uoo1SYIVaTEMnQ3NVTs8ESlJE53Jspw87AY8ewtLRYc7kpe/4b 49M3DYfGrvme7+G3BMphk74qVB87pQPzRK8qxEtz71lqZbKLu5APyd6yplkFXyOTdIio mKIPQ6hQwqYhFonSxrbp2InIGPeaY7LJu7+Sn2Ctw8w7MBcBEcIiU2jODljkp/v/MsUo bYZLmCNbyGgErCNKRpLfDQdJpfmaofE4s4lEjeijnVqSS+gNwkWUYuw7q/DSHcP4A+tO ERvUmkyoNJlQoUJkps/z7zI/VCrngnJXn5T0IZDUGoC/ricZwP0mDB6Wdqvf4536ZeKf s8rA== j7oXrz77O5ijGP9CRQr7qDznKEFcT4R6RSZzKlyPASXf o7-20020a05600c378700b003b48603e2aemr54625wmr.148.1670895806691; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 17:43:26 -0800 (PST) References: <20221212185226.EF06DA0F58@autox.team.net> From: Jeff Scarbrough Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 20:43:15 -0500 Cc: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============0681336752630254519== --00000000000003bfb105efabbfca On Mon, Dec 12, 2022, 17:20 John Miller wrote: > > > The modern start-stop crap...there's gonna be vast numbers of vehicles > scrapped because ring gear wear. > Auto start was developed in the 70s and 80s. If it led to premature scrapping, you'd think someone would have noticed by now. > --00000000000003bfb105efabbfca Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Dec 12, 2022, 17:20 John Miller <jem@milleredp.com> wrote:


The modern start-stop crap...there's gonna be vast numbers of vehicles =
scrapped because ring gear wear.=C2=A0=C2=A0


Aut= o start was developed in the 70s and 80s.=C2=A0 If it led to premature scra= pping, you'd think someone would have noticed by now.
--00000000000003bfb105efabbfca-- --===============0681336752630254519== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============0681336752630254519==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Dec 12 21:49:54 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7E0A13AA for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 21:49:54 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from omta014.uswest2.a.cloudfilter.net (unknown [35.164.127.237]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D961A13FA for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 19:29:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from cxr.smtp.a.cloudfilter.net ([10.0.16.146]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id 4s1jpyIUNpEvd4v3AplZp0; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 02:29:44 +0000 Received: from John-PC.cox.net ([68.10.236.102]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPSA id 4v38pKt5AcF7h4v39pptDp; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 02:29:44 +0000 Authentication-Results: cox.net; auth=pass (LOGIN) smtp.auth=jblair1948@cox.net a=fFb8bx/I9shrFqPlEITjOA==:117 a=fFb8bx/I9shrFqPlEITjOA==:17 a=HpEJnUlJZJkA:10 a=iEZWaKCLAAAA:8 a=zOoktvdPAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=q6SfDYXhAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=iVAur8Dain9WPuw0DX4A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=aav4MXMyVXkA:10 a=4zxjrV59PHAA:10 a=bz_d9vehOyUA:10 a=m3MdUl94G8cA:10 a=GGwxkeRKJ0dr3Umyi5gA:9 a=xM_7D4nZ6oS-lY7F:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=lqcHg5cX4UMA:10 a=vGgPcN4G-ktUWJNYb7fx:22 a=GGGinmgZRQXmVEG1E52S:22 a=R7nWeq4dleIJhz-CJ_3q:22 Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 21:29:40 -0500 To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net From: "John T. Blair" /tQCVTeciPiRKd+r7H+9TXnjjOK4iQKkJOageW5ZsDMiwzqO8vhGNfyGTedRENmKVT83eIoc2WUl1KM7n+1S+gAalevqGuVn63g= Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============0710544617764586118== boundary="=====================_45583039==.ALT" --=====================_45583039==.ALT At 10:15 AM 12/12/2022, eric@megageek.com wrote: >I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here. > >If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long >hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage? > >I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release. Moose, As long as you release the clutch, I can't see where you're doing any harm. Most manual Xmissions are splash lubericated so it's getting the proper amound of lub for the speed. The engine is getting it's required lub as it is NOT connected to the xmission. That said, especially going down hill, I don't think it's a good idea. And I've been told that in a lot of states it's illegal to coast in neutral to lights, etc. The reason being is you don't necessarily have "positive" control over the vechile. I've done it many times, and needed to set on the gas and forgot that it was out of gear. Luckily, as the rpms increased and the speed didn't I realized what was wrong and took my foot off the gas. But if I had really needed to stomp the gas, I would have been in trouble. But when I've slowed down conciderably, I do quite often put the car in neutral and release the clutch and coast into the light. One other point. Speaking of releasing the clutch, when you pull up to a traffic light or have to stop for any reason, you should put the xmission in neutral, let out the clutch. Keeping the clutch depress puts wear on the throwout bearing and cause a premature failure. John >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk@autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jblair1948@cox.net John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948@cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: http://autox.team.net/morgan/ Bricklin: http://www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --=====================_45583039==.ALT At 10:15 AM 12/12/2022, eric@megageek.com wrote:

>I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here.
>
>If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long
>hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage?
>
>I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release.

Moose,

As long as you release the clutch, I can't see where you're doing any harm.  Most
manual Xmissions are splash lubericated so it's getting the proper amound of lub
for the speed.  The engine is getting it's required lub as it is NOT connected to the
xmission.

That said, especially going down hill, I don't think it's a good idea.  And I've been
told that in a lot of states it's illegal to coast in neutral to lights, etc.  The reason
being is you don't necessarily have "positive" control over the vechile.  I've done
it many times, and needed to set on the gas and forgot that it was out of gear.
Luckily, as the rpms increased and the speed didn't I realized what was wrong and
took my foot off the gas.  But if I had really needed to stomp the gas, I would
have been in trouble. 

But when I've slowed down conciderably, I do quite often put the car in neutral and
release the clutch and coast into the light.

One other point.  Speaking of releasing the clutch, when you pull up to a traffic light
or have to stop for any reason, you should put the xmission in neutral, let out the
clutch.  Keeping the clutch depress puts  wear on the throwout bearing and cause
a premature failure.

John


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Donate: Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jblair1948@cox.net

Virus-free. www.avast.com



John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948@cox.net
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Bricklin:     http://www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
     e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
     In God We Trust
     Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for 
                  oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction 


--=====================_45583039==.ALT-- --===============0710544617764586118== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============0710544617764586118==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 13 00:10:31 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6BBA1610 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 00:10:31 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from NAM12-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (unknown [40.92.22.97]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C2EBA14F7 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 22:25:14 -0700 (MST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=AWxuwrjlzRVf8cu7D+7EvLFG2ak5axCdKwjLVg0IkT4oPL8sj79NtrsfH0FcCv830JcwIASrDZhDCeVvtXQLLpO/C+CkKheroRmuThpAqSfHZHBUWnizsKcQawW4uOqHDnjRdE0eUzQ66Pply9lb2lFKT82vU1fEF1NWQLHy/VAd6DXfvQjKS2LBPzlidAut5iOiIF8SgFE5sLVoFYRxy/PdeQOQzPBXAtT/F1cG4rTv3fu92ZWnW1I6iOkxLnhmcq7Z2/Qx1T7sIpeJz2XyRsmAO/euBmCGF1GjTSzMw3LUil1NREQGaJgTnKktzJ81x1c3p3v6wgvyhYU5/Z44eA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=jAPyaoM6exzh8lMYWWRfNTNAHvYj7ZQlEDrcPLDn1SM=; b=JMiLCkdWhbgD6u6QtcgjAYvTDuKCU1mTMm0Z06Ts8WxNjhYgh/OHmuB2SxddhwBBtUJXWnQB5UCl/JQsEqz0FAO/oCdYicgggKqVTvW5RkhPKP21Be2sGjNq7dq+FiRvOmCA5o6lPHbnr3RLkO7gUC6I4g9yD2yhg0wUdUU5xyps3psDnVC4PN7w+y6trNI9bfBK0N922jZrP6OexBuQOD0vHCYUIX7hHksfDC6sWlj1LjSjvsth1wsDIlgRyogyx38FLITKAi2JjzcyfXz6VFrc/ysU6l3b+3cub8LgeLIfKfomT4fOFOHguElzIQsY5j/YHOyitiRqVB4cAF0DHw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=jAPyaoM6exzh8lMYWWRfNTNAHvYj7ZQlEDrcPLDn1SM=; b=CeaVHXKaOFYGUqv+d2iuKeZR44Lcy+hv3nYusoR5A42MyOQGqStubSgP7rZHsxyswzRWKzbcLy1JYqZ7api+6TTa9jbf1qjoJwKCiNE9LjRbr1F6gtVCFLiB2buZj7aeY9lKFU3MOr0B1FGqJn96nmPuyfbLMFP6H/wxJEXtXUQvrb379LzNZgPJOlybay4Lu4o8IloC2stTll/wgkEiqY4Pfz/8im00RAKt/+5v7KJiNWthVZDNSG87QiJLl2YoC4VcJV8WWjBTyq0oIw/Gkl2LhzKNsE6pry8+DMw+wT+B3RPhDhe8msZAPbYA41nSUf0+JWKSReJaWwxhYg50Lw== Received: from CY5PR11MB6533.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:930:43::13) by MN2PR11MB4680.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:26d::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5880.19; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 05:25:27 +0000 Received: from CY5PR11MB6533.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b605:d901:8d3d:8a45]) by CY5PR11MB6533.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b605:d901:8d3d:8a45%8]) with mapi id 15.20.5880.019; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 05:25:27 +0000 From: Jack Brooks To: "eric@megageek.com" , "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" Thread-Topic: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Thread-Index: AQHZDkEGpA/Orzt6okG5ePMdR4n3KK5rSHNQ Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 05:24:27 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 05:23:30 +0000 References: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US x-tmn: [QBsNS6jyWo98YjT8Xgqq6+kXb+rBnEeh] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CY5PR11MB6533:EE_|MN2PR11MB4680:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ce8c281d-3b2d-486b-0419-08dadcca71d0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?us-ascii?Q?Otgw5n3v4jw1UWHu0Ja1rMk7QNLnz3LTkVg8qcrTgEE8SqmRrpHan2eu0/wx?= =?us-ascii?Q?DFSx8dW6SB9e7qVUR84qloOvQoW9YZkvhaj24wzE+kaDZSD08O/45kXf3Hcu?= =?us-ascii?Q?vrnZ/BbzhXciiV8d46pfGsri8boFe6tEfCaBGhR/Ii/Fe4QrLPHOZS296zxg?= =?us-ascii?Q?Tp4I0E5LtQGv0q6MQuZWqPrUguNAWNSK/f6TwMq2wPqIFuaHnVvVoChlNuNh?= =?us-ascii?Q?IkUH9049R/t9BzCp/+HSQ9TBqGFjSkVOOBaB6r8L1iJsSEfLfci+MSK8PYG7?= =?us-ascii?Q?gJNr6dbV5bmWJllLfeOqme07v7nBumc6jP8uUvBD47kHOEO08fvUiVd4tqLP?= =?us-ascii?Q?4aBDwOLdddAcp6MU4PkbT0Zin9v5ur4oW9SoIk0oHBc7DH4jmkoFtw+dCW5X?= =?us-ascii?Q?0IZaZZooWR7lj7g1lcsIttZNMxtcQS1uDEg2euMi1k8h4q1fvg+/5zMXfktF?= =?us-ascii?Q?UggPm5FSsq8IOMmOhMOUv8/5In64ZCpAAeL/H0feAwoxu37VJ3T0ES0oySz3?= =?us-ascii?Q?VYGVWXB41xDQL6o3Vws3RJoInK34JaUJ1brD/MTzHoHINgU32no22mBZAfoN?= =?us-ascii?Q?2CmzTJLSk3WzjYhyr0W/GMwoXimKQkZx7EKn5Ln5LRcWi2d0uo/LKxOMLASb?= =?us-ascii?Q?hn5uHlpSN07A+AyivC37uf66t4ZZnsmjJLZM+/Q2VrusaPvO5STNAOMCI2LD?= =?us-ascii?Q?JOIa74M7K2scPA515o91Op7p1xpwk/kJuD6XWneHGVU/xJ9S3aAzWT+ied7o?= =?us-ascii?Q?V5rzlmAL86952TDzaUwMwrtub28TTZnDxhmAKhWvgprfrCNDni5PAyrmiVc3?= =?us-ascii?Q?UPWwpWMs9uTK2+tDFNSOjKixhOWV5b2IXyF6bOb8+3SlGqO2rG6AO8ZiZm+e?= =?us-ascii?Q?1r95q8DL7253lklaZUPNEV7idDmkfANmk8B1ha8UIy5fJf2EQ68y6dMRb3sW?= =?us-ascii?Q?sedmkOG8e4tqFx5I7sCO8U2ybD6dqIDX8fEXMMMK+0elo4QDrdYGbFqyv4SA?= =?us-ascii?Q?c6zkAbvY8K44nuu0PtapEedAfPGzFmn2cLoorv/FN3upcMQNrsG9YeBLTYlE?= =?us-ascii?Q?dO2ewW6e87JHO/sdloWCiQhOR6XBJ6rVF5EXYcCSagQZYFh1KyxK/9pGzD3k?= =?us-ascii?Q?CK9FJ5ShFsn7Pnce3fIsuUUT0GMQ7Egfzp7M1ez3utxt0kHFVC7vywv7SHnQ?= =?us-ascii?Q?AQSFtdlVPO5QyPLfa0xuW75KnfU/qDXuSij38qiLsJ3IoIX82lMKVGhserbd?= =?us-ascii?Q?dYdGqFQH8XifEadrmBPt?= Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============0704729996462188596== Content-Language: en-US boundary="_000_CY5PR11MB6533E5952BC91DCF2DEEF1B1A8E39CY5PR11MB6533namp_" --_000_CY5PR11MB6533E5952BC91DCF2DEEF1B1A8E39CY5PR11MB6533namp_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check to see how it can be towed. My 1980 Triumph TR8 cannot be flat towed= , as the tranny uses splash lubrication that does not work in neutral . I'= m not sure that coasting down a really big hill would be a problem, but I m= ight consider doing it in my TR8 even with the towing limitation, as this i= s a relatively short duration event. Jack From: Shop-talk On Behalf Of eric@megage= ek.com Sent: Monday, December 12, 2022 7:16 AM To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real expert= s here. If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while = going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing = any damage? I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the cl= utch release. Any thoughts? Moose --_000_CY5PR11MB6533E5952BC91DCF2DEEF1B1A8E39CY5PR11MB6533namp_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Check to see how it can be towed.&= nbsp; My 1980 Triumph TR8 cannot be flat towed, as the tranny uses splash l= ubrication that does not work in neutral .  I’m not sure that coasting down a really big hill would be a problem, but I might = consider doing it in my TR8 even with the towing limitation, as this is a r= elatively short duration event.

 

Jack

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces@autox.t= eam.net> On Behalf Of eric@megageek.com
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2022 7:16 AM
To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate

 

I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinion= s from the real experts here.

I= f you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while g= oing down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing a= ny damage?

I= 'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clu= tch release.

A= ny thoughts?

M= oose

--_000_CY5PR11MB6533E5952BC91DCF2DEEF1B1A8E39CY5PR11MB6533namp_-- --===============0704729996462188596== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============0704729996462188596==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 13 00:32:28 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E90A1634 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 00:32:28 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from resdmta-a1p-077303.sys.comcast.net (unknown [96.103.146.61]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70DAFA0ED8 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2022 23:24:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from resomta-a1p-077059.sys.comcast.net ([96.103.145.240]) by resdmta-a1p-077303.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id 4yeNpRWVrxGUj4yiHpjRIP; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:24:25 +0000 s=20190202a; t=1670912665; bh=bUxfVZ+EtiiBFk3QtbWcrvdaPeQ2WkQKwMdp+2PYzGI=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:MIME-Version:To:From:Subject:Date: Content-Type:Xfinity-Spam-Result; b=BYgHZxgcOciWO1lvrZFCA3NYx1BVAdzz214rZNupJunlYfSBt9gEkQER6lmqVptuN qUiU1uVaK8Ieay34pVlfbZ4404wJm+7WtmQl+eAy+fDKvtsOmpYffewGVeHgyXEYEu /wM309hI5bJ6A8ocP5xuGHRNCkgL7uEU2eR5fjKcwGFooE/4/zNJGwYzrny0YgiqTx /Ao5EyxWKqXqTY8U54c7pKLnUP0S3x52OiQIp2r/cuGlLs51k06JCDXg9agnqBusLG iPjpet7YQRWhjrwfCXDHqwHbP3q6nK3/PI8aRxu0Z/YnkO0yrYgkCxLP0f6loaN1o0 teHpqIInebreg== Received: from [IPv6:::ffff:10.0.4.136] ([104.193.114.217]) by resomta-a1p-077059.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPSA id 4yhfp0iFvQGgR4yhopyFzp; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:24:01 +0000 To: "shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net" From: Bob Kegel Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 22:24:00 -0800 Importance: normal References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============5924967470921076742== boundary="_C8033E84-99CB-4E97-BBF1-5F0D5A4648A5_" --_C8033E84-99CB-4E97-BBF1-5F0D5A4648A5_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Coasting is illegal here in WA, but only on a downgrade. RCW 46.61.630 Coasting prohibited. (1) The driver of any motor vehicle when= traveling upon a down grade shall not coast with the gears of such vehicle= in neutral. (2) The driver of a commercial motor vehicle when traveling upon a down gra= de shall not coast with the clutch disengaged. [1965 ex.s. c 155 =C2=A7 74.= ] Now that the statute of limitations has run I can confess to coasting about= 20 miles with the tranny in neutral and the gas gauge halfway between =E2= =80=9Cempty=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cpositively.=E2=80=9D From: Benjamin Zwissler Sent: Monday, December 12, 2022 12:27 To: Jeff Scarbrough Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate I was taught in drivers ed, now 45 years ago, that in Indiana "coasting" wa= s illegal, as the car was considered out of control.=C2=A0 I assumed that t= he reasoning was if your brakes failed you might not be able to get it back= in gear and use engine braking.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Seems a moot point these days = as modern cars all have synchros and the brakes are much better than they u= sed to be. --_C8033E84-99CB-4E97-BBF1-5F0D5A4648A5_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Coasting is illegal here in WA, but only on a d= owngrade.

 

RCW 46.61.630 Coasting prohibi= ted. (1) The driver of any motor vehicle when traveling upon a down grade s= hall not coast with the gears of such vehicle in neutral.
(2) The driver= of a commercial motor vehicle when traveling upon a down grade shall not c= oast with the clutch disengaged. [1965 ex.s. c 155 =C2=A7 74.]

Now that = the statute of limitations has run I can confess to coasting about 20 miles= with the tranny in neutral and the gas gauge halfway between =E2=80=9Cempt= y=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cpositively.=E2=80=9D

 

 

&n= bsp;

From: Benjamin Zwissler
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2022 12= :27
To: Jeff Scarbrough
Cc: shop-talk@autox= .team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next= great debate

 

=

I was taught in drivers ed, now 45 years ago, that in = Indiana "coasting" was illegal, as the car was considered out of = control.  I assumed that the reasoning was if your brakes failed you m= ight not be able to get it back in gear and use engine braking.   = ;Seems a moot point these days as modern cars all have synchros and the bra= kes are much better than they used to be.

 

 

= --_C8033E84-99CB-4E97-BBF1-5F0D5A4648A5_-- --===============5924967470921076742== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============5924967470921076742==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 13 05:43:10 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E32A010E for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 05:43:10 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (unknown [66.163.191.147]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93936A02C5 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 05:38:10 -0700 (MST) t=1670935105; bh=FvLCfa3bG6ZtNlri3OLf42422jvuDdGbdzyNQue+5qM=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=N5KdkdPLaLH9pz4DncqEuzK5lGlgK4iNgAUWxYgSGFg63zDNfOsZTiVr4lM2JL7lgD3Mtht1Zzg1gbaxxNtmfWPfskD8v6oMbSz+IPhVEurYARnnkTDZ1kYbq35oKiGgWyqRRsfXB3E3ohWooGoESIlW1pksDsqSk54ylkIIflH0Sde3aswWqKNrAoeAh9kg1jfhO9xMtCe1hWKqUKDKCguKpd2C8BiOhw19IbJU0m7m03TFqG7AAxX5I06yaFBorOm2zlA+v0Y9AE2tx44aPijlqmPFMhBS/2x8dLqHg/XtDVzPg7IbUQ8w2VD21jfd563Gg/AuQa0879+WL2wlwA== t=1670935105; bh=bzcUU5itwULxdotJz32yfoprsfrocAT3uBJETFmcfgy=; h=X-Sonic-MF:Date:From:To:Subject:From:Subject; b=BEXQYDiHtRqZ181uIzOW373PQx7fTrSKQ5IF7gHadA+RTwrb2wHWv5WEudL1BpBjn2F8PeeChLQzheD3AKbOaR3bT4f9+aSbBkIce+dLpsBwEGl0FCdA9zW2qUza+QQW8RBfD8WuwzuFnnqYyOEGEAn/OeDyPFpw/4NmLMCw6W3eqiMuv0JO4VRs1qxOlZX+Nfj9HmGIwxbsAGP8Sse+5k1h5ac8U0ikd0w25PkvkJu2ODKcBOYvRLX1HqEuxVeMg37E3t5VKMEkExd2m+rUyASt3Jsk/ALgbkv1j5fEyiNeg0FuYVJwF0FfioXKQq8gx9a5WJAkX8oXhFygSAuN2w== EEIkrdqWlszTmFpZlwJ7i2FGe4KZwt2lnKi2xadpHC66mNXWXP_7pTaKPZ_bb1xV2.IKhhjDaE0K iG1Y3UxytvTDADA0vBkJ3iQUqB.XJZzNzILjsficfZDsInAxGApoRGfEoMDmXA8thEvpNFbzLVK3 ZfT3g1hMEqS1HP0qDMOuz60Sc6m3R2FTTO8M3oQRJ.2ifwknyT7Xzrbexl1cdkTenHm6x3SKLg32 IP03xz_hVdFSh.I_ncTP0tzHRGzHMEG1bDBG_hAg48KxscYv8g9a5IclfPTpkhucKezMBycZKchK .Wo8FeKrW38AA9lT1Sp5sY4ZZ7gyWYzq5h.XKQLRkQVMrgBwmyr_gC9Fwi8LCKOAcofeMagBNZMR A.IQgN1w01hg_ufG9Ex1Fpr1HOc.k4lNOFCl1jQHQallHj1ifBwLq6Nu48PGII3ZqFEcHHog92qY FY7oznGPVRT.7W8Vw1dVSSzg1M1zVTPHqJ7wzfr2i5GnBMYB.Hl6yGT37powi1Xor7INsKdQ5xCC vikBZUDQ6tGuRPGTn7BzA3a0mhM26DOS8KKNNox9955nZLZpXLwxGcf1hl9GOOMypqKvptnkI7pl JIkkZ60bw7q4gy335Kf1uXqRpSrR.bRH_nPffnQ1EdwGd.OaEglfhsemJGCgCC1MxSy28Yxxi9KV a1hNLODcwko69LdBUInUomqQpHjqM9sHltiKTv.iCe1Sl396yAJQ_rFafUBG5rLiNtTzPbth3Py8 VEtyOm5Eo4qEMj21E6Z6OdX9Xi7fBpZ2x0o.7elu6lh6VBs_7Lssnco3bkfEtLflad7CMnHoCnxX VEfa_L_7s9JUluS7CXrYGS7OEL2kI93__KgOpqXMqI6pVT17QSbf7f3CZoCLi.wi2bSjOpnSfDK5 c9q0HO52qDhqlc4X9fLH5PG2zMcI.mkj2gWq7RonJIisM5jhOiO.Ak3vqzq.mls4XlQm6PKDbUo3 tNci9paIeqbHS5Iyf24x96uGPJQ3quUYhQ_EaQ56SqLz2V0qwTuC7uTHhYWaJyBfMSQ.VodlabRd eGrle3xKsYtryM_6WF1cu00giVn5jA2EkfxD5ZD5okODzVHOTsQxezEVqOCYniSwncxPz0UdkynK jWAMeOfGAX4P9KsCyrxBmCGUI88EVXyGaFfO9fVq6A.YpB9IGzCvHkjm9NJYLeeCQMYtPYsqsT6f lHg_EtXBTBSZYh6CYJo94BGFv4sHIPGm0FJbQzu.cHQfRsJe8OcnxrGyQ92fuLWnee6_zs5BFovZ C3IW83Lz2HivLLy1I8uGD5HiZczgs05B4sCECK0zIhLcF57gm0rIvOqnI.m2zcxOT8HVMiW.SELJ zAB0KVT7mNQ.zsvgD7JPNlypnZbnRW7raWFN5sYELaz3raTYCwzENzBB_WznHtl3AhaZnbry1QHG wCjeP8apBwZj4M7koUrJNwdXQs5Tuj_GWS5D8AEhgevidyLSWIOqqZOlhV4Fl8rFKcTv89mTCs3f .k_l2i9EjC7KJr5ReVvDLvB3we4TD37lA081J4CngRKq_KHSv3Um5ZyOBej1qKWTfJLa9lqOwMRH imyvvgeQ8JAjB0jp787aUuED0mcER5joVgC87p1aOjEU.3q6JG68g2Lv0tLUPKKG8O5J09o3bsMV JcIeor8_4mxiWnVdUrvl8M4im4UTk1elHyRNzBth3VCKz00MYWjrAap9WZFSNfQqTV7npGZrloNH UccbDgo53e5xWbs3TkICpaVFU8TknQlE_Ncp_zRg8B2TEYVcbcOFcjvS.OUjHv2Ay_FUlqaaTlDq VTis1loVgG1H2y37pylwKceJ9qoht8yaiSAQLj9BhK.kVdyaRd6sY98kymFwezZ2cZRlfHdcXh_C RAuvD5FyTqhCC9L2vQwW4vUe3hRK7F6LdcW0rH9fArqTOvFGY944uALjuJUgsS7Qntnyq5JJ8Xup HposTLNUpdw6szm0kOzIwJU5Fg.QR78ZY.OZa3h_xH5CRkUGH.mCzaUfVv6PoaLN2K782a2FAJBP EMyjEmz9NdyCoChFq5C2g4LGyUmHoqOSDNK1M_rawMwIEinWVnf4xVNx7OWGje.h1pzXP7ZMIiEB PX0Rxc2pbI5qAX9CvEcvsuOLTRMxcfX94lolqTe6xppbD_hVKvF81S0Le3CHc7TbFqE3bXkP8KYE T2pmdf3Vom.ZEA5kdyWTtfCd3bol8mwz_vnIhfhoUcWJ6l0LGvo4C0tc.lTJIu10- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 12:38:25 +0000 Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 12:38:21 +0000 (UTC) From: DAVID MASSEY To: "eric@megageek.com" , "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============0115862421455211146== boundary="----=_Part_4881037_444953132.1670935101538" ------=_Part_4881037_444953132.1670935101538 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You didn't mention what the vehicle is but most manual transmissions have = a layshaft that is down in the oil at the bottom transmission.=C2=A0 As lon= g as that layshaft is turning it will be splashing oil and keeping everythi= ng lubricated.=C2=A0 That layshaft is driven by the input shaft.=C2=A0 As l= ong as the engine is running (even at idle) the you will get sufficient lub= rication regardless whether the driveshaft is turning or not. Flat towing is a whole other animal.=C2=A0 Typically, the engine is not run= ning in which case the main shaft is turning, driven by the drive shaft, bu= t the layshaft is not.=C2=A0 No splash oiling and the bushings can run dry = causing damage.=C2=A0 But if the engine is idling and the clutch is engaged= - no worries. I suspect that the laws regarding coasting in=C2=A0 neutral date back to th= e 30's when brakes were iffy at best.=C2=A0 In today's world brakes are muc= h more effective and have a level or redundancy built in. My daily driver h= as a small engine and provides precious little compression braking.=C2=A0 I= f my brakes were to fail completely (including my hand brake) the engine br= aking would do very little to prevent a collision. =20 Dave=20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: eric@megageek.com To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Sent: Mon, Dec 12, 2022 9:15 am Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate I'm putting this out to the group to getsome opinions from the real experts= here. If you put a manually car or truck inneutral and release the clutch while g= oing down long hills or coming toa stop at a intersection, are you doing an= y damage? I'm not worried about fuel savings,just is coasting in neutral with the clu= tch release. Any thoughts? Moose_______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arch= ive ssey@cs.com ------=_Part_4881037_444953132.1670935101538 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
You didn't mention what the vehicle is but most manual transmissions have a layshaft that is down in the oil at the bottom transmission.  As long as that layshaft is turning it will be splashing oil and keeping everything lubricated.  That layshaft is driven by the input shaft.  As long as the engine is running (even at idle) the you will get sufficient lubrication regardless whether the driveshaft is turning or not.

Flat towing is a whole other animal.  Typically, the engine is not running in which case the main shaft is turning, driven by the drive shaft, but the layshaft is not.  No splash oiling and the bushings can run dry causing damage.  But if the engine is idling and the clutch is engaged - no worries.

I suspect that the laws regarding coasting in  neutral date back to the 30's when brakes were iffy at best.  In today's world brakes are much more effective and have a level or redundancy built in. My daily driver has a small engine and provides precious little compression braking.  If my brakes were to fail completely (including my hand brake) the engine braking would do very little to prevent a collision.

Dave




-----Original Message-----
From: eric@megageek.com
To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Sent: Mon, Dec 12, 2022 9:15 am
Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate

I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here.

If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage?

I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release.

Any thoughts?

Moose
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive


------=_Part_4881037_444953132.1670935101538-- --===============0115862421455211146== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============0115862421455211146==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 13 07:55:30 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42396A1532 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 07:55:30 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ej1-f44.google.com (unknown [209.85.218.44]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D84A1550 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 07:22:24 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ej1-f44.google.com with SMTP id u19so18362820ejm.8 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:22:38 -0800 (PST) h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=U2siU/ipQExWeOdbgkmvBpsO+n1k4RMIQooUoMnKV9g=; b=PE6R18eORxLvQujqcLM0y8akKYedN91vfrFAwWI/gUMZx388jaFVPA5iItzoPXM+V2 J9q2XMrdHyINMr4w8vDiRRkI8w7sFS5+yiIU5Ro9XklJeLgj8lplRfTww8E8/Mes63pk hfXhL8EiiYlYwqIR2NhZwCTo6Elr7EXtw1pe0/6UH1F1LDlvuLseDcPg1ZEJqo1p1uCh ieThuWq904nal301mZKkHboBqhss2zlrRJqikm3jGfEhYVGRDzBIhT/ZBNaS1XtDGC4f WvunHY67l/epDp8uxJJ8DxNUAz1rjA/orUxf/Gz5IclEPhekgztjEyBVzXThzHns5NbS SQUA== d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=U2siU/ipQExWeOdbgkmvBpsO+n1k4RMIQooUoMnKV9g=; b=OGcuF2OGqph4+yHjD+M+K+RV5KrHPkNVqi5HGMH05mkg47QFOGhddILM+dGBH4hYyF btfvf2EijKnet2BLnbOVFndGaShN5vlxmDQL20OzRMsSwrnEu+/hyblCuQJYkPn8A3DN FwdZ92lAcH3B2bJyRW1YER5DcJcnmb3SoLlVjdLPSbg7WbcGEHQ2FDEPRF0b3UIUVgfh +4e3klhcoM1mvri+i9YX2QegfAoM8OX8g5nhtGRvuQj/eH7khT5C5EDDkJD9ZJ1CusrQ RvTo2G4zkw5O/GNX/RtttRny7cXmPy7DM+Cv8irnGr4ibjSOfGGR/OD1w4pMUpb1aztU lH+w== u2EH5cjUUa385APCPc9Nf2g1Zf1+nquswrfKe09d6dNB p9-20020a170906614900b0078da15400aemr64735221ejl.259.1670941357707; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:22:37 -0800 (PST) References: From: John Innis Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 08:22:26 -0600 To: Jack Brooks Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Cc: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============5730119766255514164== --0000000000001115d205efb65a5f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Flat towing is a slightly different scenario because the engine is not running. If the engine is running and the clutch is NOT depressed, the input shaft will be turning. As long as the input shaft is turning, there is lubrication provided. When flat towing only the output shaft is turning, so no lubrication. On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 1:21 AM Jack Brooks wrote: > Check to see how it can be towed. My 1980 Triumph TR8 cannot be flat > towed, as the tranny uses splash lubrication that does not work in neutra= l > . I=E2=80=99m not sure that coasting down a really big hill would be a p= roblem, > but I might consider doing it in my TR8 even with the towing limitation, = as > this is a relatively short duration event. > > > > Jack > > > > *From:* Shop-talk * On Behalf Of * > eric@megageek.com > *Sent:* Monday, December 12, 2022 7:16 AM > *To:* Shop-talk@autox.team.net > *Subject:* [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate > > > > I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real > experts here. > > If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch whil= e > going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doin= g > any damage? > > I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the > clutch release. > > Any thoughts? > > Moose > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis@gmail.com > > --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D Never offend people with style when you =3D =3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown =3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --0000000000001115d205efb65a5f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Flat towing is a slightly different scenario because the e= ngine is not running.=C2=A0 If the engine is running and the clutch is NOT = depressed, the input shaft will be turning.=C2=A0 As long as the input shaf= t is turning, there is lubrication provided.=C2=A0 When flat towing only th= e output shaft is turning, so no lubrication.=C2=A0

On Tue, Dec 13, 202= 2 at 1:21 AM Jack Brooks <JIBrooks@= live.com> wrote:

Check to see how it can be towe= d.=C2=A0 My 1980 Triumph TR8 cannot be flat towed, as the tranny uses splas= h lubrication that does not work in neutral .=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m not sure that coasting down a really big hill would be a problem, but I might = consider doing it in my TR8 even with the towing limitation, as this is a r= elatively short duration event.

=C2=A0

Jack

=C2=A0

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.n= et> On Behalf Of eri= c@megageek.com
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2022 7:16 AM
To: Sh= op-talk@autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate<= u>

=C2=A0

I'm putting this out to the group to get some opini= ons from the real experts here.

If = you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while goi= ng down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any= damage?

I&#= 39;m not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the c= lutch release.

Any= thoughts?

Moo= se

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk@aut= ox.team.net
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk htt= p://autox.team.net/archive

alk/jdinnis@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.te= am.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis@gmail.com



--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D Never offend people= with style when you=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D
=3D can offend with substance --- S= am Brown=C2=A0 =3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
--0000000000001115d205efb65a5f-- --===============5730119766255514164== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============5730119766255514164==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 13 11:41:36 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 263B8A134D for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 11:41:36 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-qt1-f176.google.com (unknown [209.85.160.176]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE01A1420 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 10:57:12 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-qt1-f176.google.com with SMTP id c7so465366qtw.8 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 09:57:27 -0800 (PST) h=to:in-reply-to:cc:references:message-id:date:subject:mime-version :from:content-transfer-encoding:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=RU8nqj2mB3pU8YGp5AgFriXhfQxgLazgvaXEFlzyhZc=; b=hz9XXWLFqanHMtlRtbA/t2gQT/3/9QiFt7hwOeuAA/olz9av4bukCehbl2Dl70vTFu 50q2ZswaVehNt3JkO36xKsS0YPHo/ClACfl5Hv4/zLg0Nd41LS/beznY0UieWFPC3iY8 zm/m5rPzu45R/kDdS4+hFjhnfWlVIANqGfRkKkkcSNOPMURojbc8oCO75w3C+n4hhTK/ nMX/CU0UpqLNxXmczYLvNMEyFIHfSZzruXnioltZO4jCOESfKIENac7pdl06k3wcTElN YNEvrOwKSabqkmjeef2liCrpjWWlQpg1zpfRtlTAXb7cRj24RL2eJ96lsHfC0frfZnmf ovPA== d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=to:in-reply-to:cc:references:message-id:date:subject:mime-version :from:content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=RU8nqj2mB3pU8YGp5AgFriXhfQxgLazgvaXEFlzyhZc=; b=7iTDa03Yk0LPhc1E+x2L/q4VWmJrHYEGZUzSLFSYwY5+xlegLpZVuNYclbGtbkKuy7 0kMxWNJXtnGsjZRu2XTomw5kzsAnPu+EIK8um6hWuesZ/jzCIdkMKCwdWIdWOeatmWyW zp+xEQ4Sho/WFOwYRKyLjb10Vy4/83fEZ4aC+j71sVcUD5a6zt4C/936R12na5s4CLa6 1lm3wGaCTdi8PCtdasitIR/pkfejTxwXUFwm6DdvjvQVR7IA1wbLb7irMhMIcCSVN4f5 Ju3O23V0ktvQMs2yJwmcbU9e9Kw4QpnYLwbu7Kgu+BkxuJQeFKx/2VJEwuufnhXlhHGW skwQ== tilmBs2z1Se8CiF62IPvbMeq0viDrA== z4-20020a05622a124400b003a4efd93159mr28658987qtx.3.1670954246968; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 09:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (107-221-86-73.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net. [107.221.86.73]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w5-20020a05620a444500b006eed75805a2sm8511285qkp.126.2022.12.13.09.57.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 13 Dec 2022 09:57:26 -0800 (PST) From: David Scheidt Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 11:57:13 -0600 References: To: John Innis Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Cgo+IE9uIERlYyAxMywgMjAyMiwgYXQgMDk6MDUsIEpvaG4gSW5uaXMgPGpkaW5uaXNAZ21haWwu Y29tPiB3cm90ZToKPiAKPiDvu78KPiBGbGF0IHRvd2luZyBpcyBhIHNsaWdodGx5IGRpZmZlcmVu dCBzY2VuYXJpbyBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZSBlbmdpbmUgaXMgbm90IHJ1bm5pbmcuICBJZiB0aGUgZW5n aW5lIGlzIHJ1bm5pbmcgYW5kIHRoZSBjbHV0Y2ggaXMgTk9UIGRlcHJlc3NlZCwgdGhlIGlucHV0 IHNoYWZ0IHdpbGwgYmUgdHVybmluZy4gIEFzIGxvbmcgYXMgdGhlIGlucHV0IHNoYWZ0IGlzIHR1 cm5pbmcsIHRoZXJlIGlzIGx1YnJpY2F0aW9uIHByb3ZpZGVkLiAgV2hlbiBmbGF0IHRvd2luZyBv bmx5IHRoZSBvdXRwdXQgc2hhZnQgaXMgdHVybmluZywgc28gbm8gbHVicmljYXRpb24uICAKClRo ZSBpbnB1dCB3aWxsIGJlIHR1cm5pbmcgYXQgaWRsZS4gVGhlIG91dHB1dCB3aWxsIGJlIHR1cm5p bmcgYXQgd2hhdGV2ZXIgcm9hZCBzcGVlZCBpcy4gIEkgd291bGQgbm90IHRydXN0IHRoZSBsdWJy aWNhdGlvbiBzcGxhc2ggaXMgZW5vdWdoIGZvciBoaWdod2F5IHNwZWVkLiBXb27igJl0IGJlIGxv bmcgZW5vdWdoIGZvciBpdCBtYXR0ZXIgZm9yIGEgc3RvcCBsaWdodCwgYnV0IGRvd24gYSBtb3Vu dGFpbj8gIAoKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f CgpTaG9wLXRhbGtAYXV0b3gudGVhbS5uZXQKRG9uYXRlOiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LnRlYW0ubmV0L2Rv bmF0ZS5odG1sClN1Z2dlc3RlZCBhbm51YWwgZG9uYXRpb24gICQxMi45NgpBcmNoaXZlOiBodHRw Oi8vd3d3LnRlYW0ubmV0L3BpcGVybWFpbC9zaG9wLXRhbGsgaHR0cDovL2F1dG94LnRlYW0ubmV0 L2FyY2hpdmUKClVuc3Vic2NyaWJlL01hbmFnZTogaHR0cDovL2F1dG94LnRlYW0ubmV0L21haWxt YW4vb3B0aW9ucy9zaG9wLXRhbGsvbWhhcmNAYXV0b3gudGVhbS5uZXQKCg== From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 13 13:49:02 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9359A0CF0 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 13:49:02 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from Deep13.mail.Megageek.com (unknown [34.199.103.79]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1EB6A0B35 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 12:53:29 -0700 (MST) References: <67734658-0B27-4C88-8F80-827F468E3747@gmail.com> To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net type=4; name=$KeepSent From: eric@megageek.com Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 14:53:43 -0500 12/13/2022 02:53:59 PM, Serialize complete at 12/13/2022 02:53:59 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============3177401916492578679== This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 006D4A2785258917_= Thanks for everyone that gave me input. My only question is, How would a cop know you are coasting? I mean, I was a cop and never thought about it. Any ideas? Moose --=_alternative 006D4A2785258917_= Thanks for everyone that gave me input.

My only question is, How would a cop know you are coasting?

I mean, I was a cop and never thought about it.

Any ideas?

Moose --=_alternative 006D4A2785258917_=-- --===============3177401916492578679== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============3177401916492578679==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 13 16:08:55 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D801A0CF9 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 16:08:55 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wm1-f45.google.com (unknown [209.85.128.45]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66BACA0168 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 14:13:14 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-wm1-f45.google.com with SMTP id v124-20020a1cac82000000b003cf7a4ea2caso8916011wme.5 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 13:13:29 -0800 (PST) h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=M0dxvX6r0XlPykxaC2/TocAUBXN0AOGKP5/Andzfh/s=; b=LrkBx2Duio/KFaHxiv9vn2FDYxMtBDuEncmu1QGon/LqoddiygLxorhugvQ5aou7lC WkxH1NLumJs5QsfD2X9RT8ZSwrnYe+Gcjj1qGLNlmO6snFO7V0REYOpUjCft4aBQXdWN xbJtiv6xCyeNwM+iYM1m9dEn+qYBpSILQRIvtQIDgYe6g3T764HUJ0mYFPa1flV8wUNc j9KvbxxPsU+CePgehTmEkwn6wwPk67OhMR0oKsj2TLMf611+AlO6uLRvk3DzRToSVUq6 kMwEtw7dX8O4eG/9aWo6Gt3nMLtW8sIjOeuIN/T3fSKpo/dijirdCx752L+tGz4ReJW6 UO+w== d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=M0dxvX6r0XlPykxaC2/TocAUBXN0AOGKP5/Andzfh/s=; b=A0SFWy3g+X7wUb/YWsAHU8sj0F0iduflh3pqcrvaPRsjL59j5ScVca+VkJRilkynbx cl6fZky8DIX2X6kocSazHU8gnaEiv9+/dXdaU+ZWa59Ne+weqXNtEC69khTVjkRWH5ON 9peUuy5/eJRHm/ou1z93FA3LOYRnIsgj8fwS0ZE7632nsZFFaUhwHlj+QpuDDM6gaWhN wu/Vrb33QGwN5NQYHmij4bVuH6hhCYNXhiVX1LEc7xD+wvMM2ITJmd5lVB6rpg1mEgoL 0Dcg6gsegFjqeHTKhiBb1BSlo4jPUbNJ1BIKgORVMRTTm3iTau2MF1lP7PcYssHz+lQS iZBg== aLesKJsDWzq3qCjNdsfFr7MlaeBmzjXVvrtKXZcS+dxO z25-20020a05600c221900b003b48603e2aemr6641wml.148.1670966008004; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 13:13:28 -0800 (PST) References: <67734658-0B27-4C88-8F80-827F468E3747@gmail.com> From: Jeff Scarbrough Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 16:13:39 -0500 To: eric@megageek.com Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net You probably wouldn't know until they had an accident and they admitted they were coasting. On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 4:00 PM wrote: > > Thanks for everyone that gave me input. > > My only question is, How would a cop know you are coasting? > > I mean, I was a cop and never thought about it. > > Any ideas? > > Moose _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate@gmail.com > _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Dec 13 17:08:40 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C5A5A0801 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 17:08:40 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ed1-f49.google.com (unknown [209.85.208.49]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C95BA0ED4 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 16:34:49 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ed1-f49.google.com with SMTP id i9so7306493edj.4 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 15:35:03 -0800 (PST) h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=C2WyNc6+gOb8eZdUAJaW+5OGQUhyIyZzEqDHwVMiR+8=; b=hJqzW+0IQIJHn5+BWTB5dkmZ+beESY29jW8oAY3tAG4jDWB4RwiO22vv5qh+p46YHL cEP+/Z7RNbQhlY1m4ARVqwLWtruAMlATeA5XlSPdVxn/Jx4yFWGruDNH2KP2FydqAL27 Z+t7DuaKV3rESncssn0nRyfVERhIKW30Bq/ylYmKcyfMUQ/0Go+Ym8MQ3PfMTJj9yAAy agLbdnkeZPIE0NGe9zi8XqYEoPuygwp64yedtjRyeyNIB2Is61b2+84ES4Ta9SEw1HoK vf5ptCBN6gdaUCB+VP9cCejnoTEtlgqNmMp6uBRh+R2DqlQaoZDOwnY6RNf01q0i5VFT c1mg== d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=C2WyNc6+gOb8eZdUAJaW+5OGQUhyIyZzEqDHwVMiR+8=; b=IZIJypEvVD6PimRaARdOG5x41BnbS2i/H5w3n1AmjH/d7hr0ryyI1bRRv6b1qshtBh oOrPes7y9ZwPO9tYrj8vcPD8IwGElNm5TR5cC9kL8XzoW3BQi6tG0wco8jmVLKuCusHV 0KhzYX4kMe6g/8EwzhToLpktLk/sUF9yzAiODXAm7vBg8NHbSkh7sBrL43yjFvMXbm08 GQWsvtB7V0YurZBO5OmMV4EU5WG5raNloa8votX7lK+l4OQVtVTXJNpaKJiffdSuzOkg J3m9WUZcOqovikH4M4s4VEQ0N2qVjP4jeKw3trTl9fEcAbXe25yRAhGB6ApJf5VyqJk6 BbZQ== pdOBVBF4kiXfKDbx2NUDkDc2buR0fyTiO4Qu4z1aKKga t33-20020a056402242100b00461524fa8f4mr86761163eda.260.1670974502910; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 15:35:02 -0800 (PST) References: <67734658-0B27-4C88-8F80-827F468E3747@gmail.com> From: John Innis Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 17:34:52 -0600 To: eric@megageek.com Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============8003662494147362774== --000000000000acc11005efbe11f9 Not sure if you tell with a car, but a big truck you can hear the difference. Even without using a compression brake they do make some noise when going down hill in gear. There is a long gentle hill coming into town not far from where I live. It always seems the commercial vehicle enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) are staked out there around harvest time. On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 2:59 PM wrote: > Thanks for everyone that gave me input. > > My only question is, How would a cop know you are coasting? > > I mean, I was a cop and never thought about it. > > Any ideas? > > Moose _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis@gmail.com > > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= --000000000000acc11005efbe11f9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not sure if you tell with a car, but a big truck you can h= ear the difference.=C2=A0 Even without using a compression brake they do ma= ke some noise when going down hill in gear.=C2=A0 There is a long gentle hi= ll coming into town not far from where I live.=C2=A0 It always seems the co= mmercial vehicle enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) are staked out there ar= ound harvest time.

On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 2:59 PM <eric@megageek.com> wrote:
Thanks for everyone that gave me input.

My only question is, How would a cop know you are coasting?

I mean, I was a cop and never thought about it.

Any ideas?

Moose _______________________________________________

Shop-talk@aut= ox.team.net
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk htt= p://autox.team.net/archive

alk/jdinnis@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.te= am.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis@gmail.com



--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D Never offend people with = style when you=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D
=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Bro= wn=C2=A0 =3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
--000000000000acc11005efbe11f9-- --===============8003662494147362774== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============8003662494147362774==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 14 05:51:08 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F85BA12E5 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 05:51:08 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from sonic321-25.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (unknown [66.163.185.206]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C664A125D for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 05:46:31 -0700 (MST) t=1671022005; bh=LAA3FOwVi6df/npEFOj8agGULZc6Tl+LJhQ/pwcCrPQ=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=mBUTr6xXrSNI1oTG4VFNczVjdmcZ2ougEEjxjPGYm2jFjtaZ53Hae8uB2Q4lHfYAEii8tzX/EadXW00ZO5OocanchQFrQ3N77oSNXpBLSLy1hClrLKnHG5h4N4K9UmdHXYkYV/ZUy7CREjoTEIbaNZ9W35+mXrL1922ntVFo7nqgSnH+i8bOHmJNC4F4aiHBh8W3NynXzsg5byLOjhW4Y1KzMyu1TQYZc4ry8pK7plTfiuqyh1MMVu7Ec2Sg3fcIBFkT2axoHmbyHMzZ5A7C5Ng1AFLMdb3FrnU9VtviuPWTjbti1zNBdggT60sYkW3et+VujU7CQuH27GIMkl2LiQ== t=1671022005; bh=jGJZiZ/5aslBlUgDqIQCE+6HE+sDapnQrwLh+3XQowy=; h=X-Sonic-MF:Date:From:To:Subject:From:Subject; b=ER6MAdUN9iKXwmYxBn00NXKechMKo4NtMy2l1VjAO3TNZH+HbqHsLGhBAdFcKcX/pD/BJaZ1F1GT5qEIWTvNEcDWobF97s6MgrQ4MKTAELl+9/JqQcqsDAQtKXQj2PCsYxMH7tMFDVvvM9ZNElZP/JookLeWTwgeczRr2gFbK7XQWaylxaFMA91lQoQ22Iz/RJQC9b6nldWPuOKg8eDT5irm856R7xv7+pbc+7jmJYJm801qu6/VJc94Vk7uFUqr6ZdOL5NN0UekqZ0QE2enblIreRXNDWMNuzr5AUpSx+U3zanJrBoM9vJjClt94ktB/zEM6usfZYUuLLnJ2kOXKA== 4T387_7dLWO_.2aeiUUMOsr2zvvTW3J9GdNAzyi.rxKtT0VWNPxBpjowSY5jPcmiJEOyycblWM09 XOPTarpMdoH29ZWSCoZZGhxCrsIEBlbe9UuJHBQ0zoDSGRbWzPOiDmHzqGXP65uEjJkFTn5S01ju JcLalwvctY6MTlGKvINsluV0h.Cib1htMWEEXaYXNKs3.f1Ruq0dO1udrpCdj5f0pGUGtxM3ulWB Gt92V_jfpvSYflkhh3jjFLpKE3i.Vxec9BEYYvGIi52so41.fXePPjc5WDgqqLiwJWLkO6mF4OaV JJSrwA0a.UrlwLtaDIYGie41m0lu5ojrCdX.hO_A1L7eF3uv78Eo7ZGt90lATUuqW9rZsGc2zvl7 m8sx9CuNAv6s2jhyCI.oPKC_uFDPtgBcDoHGF26QeFElvdUusnX1kd7wj_3AMRK4MBeBiSTls_QI phihsGDo3rLYbBy9r8fo0BCFhgEscEVLvY5MHjxg6IMI25Qs6zWDRWuaAMogSOeBaLwa8RUmomNs AtVC.pukM0_ABw6LyiZOW0efJ7Xum21vT7Df0tMjiwAoi627B1ou23TERfM6psA2wAMTL5Gwt2ye e7YluJtimuPHWB8Uoh2MnmzCAQim9JdAuSUZpFlUFWtE9sgNis6RZgqO2AsygIUFCYFAVP3TeEYe 0wajkEMALkcv0FLXht423zc_8ikujvzlWQxnL15ity1.w4z0Iz6Jj9s4EZ5Cu6VacnZgO_cTUMos WPJ4qzRrLRhzDqKZJt7pin.Kx538erAXFAHAKrSB6u3ah8ROM_W360a3t0YqqRYTnH4K4n0S6oIm WrL.qDiledPOR0EsPcgqziIDjqu.LgAPIbEYMoOJCgRDARV5vD86xEAtgYI14Tt1eiDzcEws_8vD FG2hmOD8DsvgYYjzE1i02.2G6XtU_cMM7WI_sg9BZnXrIwsmEt2CfvmqJW4FyugBh8ZA1RkJAI8D VTAKTmHzI2XXChiphShzOjzQ2WxNxJfPBG._mIf6QtT4xMmGWP9KGM2xQbE5RBWXVN6I5Et9yuk_ vJvvuAwVpIR6.dOKBdFQn_y5Og1sJuqGm1o7diTsRjUCgsQjPhnOWTk91t.Uck8cb1NZdkYSyqTs J1NwiZYtl2tLTuJ5R6iUS5v89yUylWblNB6SNvnOh9kQT.2qYa376Tua5oALdOBIgTi7_CRoECU3 .9KoMJb2g39pKqGR26vVx4cr7v9NjkvT51rfqc32kb9eYPpIFftQEZpsUEtClhRNw7R9rVlxNirT FX2jXfIzGVu3ZbjIa74Q8OiaHRZb3jj4V9EZqLICmd257HWfbTnDEpwKm2AiXOYkehW_1rhnb6s5 lApMDg23WGRXfdA7WwAmCuOxh35sdE8ub4tvt5czcgUOyPc5VqLcDv_6ttbd52D6jVWNTHz0ajTO wXhaM2SS1Vr5W5WU.kjc15mmioG0KeK9lIU66FURE1kxZlDaFXx0t42bObYP6wsihW3w5ZpX5dSr jzdS3DTPsRzdz_kj_hyLbOwgoZD6fEM4_A5orzJ75AOgz3UkKwlevpknewswONSlJpD3HgHACTAc 6Mxa0LYoRcXTDVZKTBgR.KlrqNnLdrSN2yf7paAuSfdeyzUEbdSeRTr3kiukC.zafhvEENcozrNK kp_uwBC2CbY0zc1A22ydbKgq2o8tkbUNygT_Vo84TcDz5zInZ.1HXh9j.WAuuuiAzbNI7eBIf15A fgZwYp2US.zLNnCyTeu.Do5LhXQJV7CLDwopGvVjg0C1yAN9VKtEYA684.fr3UoIV02TH1DAcvDb uw7PeBNh83fiOCEcfIvQ6yjmM3qv7G52dr5CATd2N5eReRbTvTFPJVkP.IF2jMs2_NAOEn0grCVp _8HcBR2AnSzS8sE6Hrj.IcgnHCkkHD01.QMhXhv66aea5qShmTyAVnaxzUB5P3qqIHJfxuf0eNW9 IpoXKQryqAhFq_ZByQwAFZn2DQ1agaGdhVrjZIe3PYj2xlqHi7RUwgeoU1SoFtbkX0BhP52A_bSc 2r6m4iE31d9GDSjG9iyWSpFQ1POiQf5wDbaf2k2m0mOBZI4ihwYPdK_hV8aIlA7D_xrEUJXVaNoE ePA6Tngsp5SRRR.qSBd7Q7djjcjwfKfWhdUQG4vkNorLXyrAlQHAEfjxcbLkbgDMlmgaQRQgICHM ATPPmSWx24TiVOOE5cWeWaqt3yPrmwe31Dp.x2Idfwg9KbxbPL.jPb2bqrOtjC7Q- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic321.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 12:46:45 +0000 Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 12:46:41 +0000 (UTC) From: DAVID MASSEY To: "patintexas@icloud.com" , "eric@megageek.com" References: <5C5684CE-BFDB-4B82-B1E2-5BA1608D25AD@icloud.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Cc: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============4359324272697081949== boundary="----=_Part_654925_517438750.1671022001804" ------=_Part_654925_517438750.1671022001804 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I flat-towed a TR6 50 miles.=C2=A0 I replaced the transmission a year late= r.=C2=A0 The bushings on the main shaft failed.=C2=A0 But that is because t= here is no oiling taking place when the engine is NOT running and the main = shaft is turning within the stationary gears.=C2=A0 If the engine is runnin= g the layshaft is turning distributing the oil and keeping everything lubri= cated.=C2=A0=20 Also, this was after a 50 mile tow. =20 Dave=20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Pat Horne To: eric@megageek.com Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Sent: Mon, Dec 12, 2022 11:28 am Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In general, I don=E2=80=99t see any problem. However I recall something sim= ilar decades ago where a tow truck driver did a two wheel haul on a car tha= t was very low on trans fluid. After a long tow the trans bearings heated u= p & seized. Can=E2=80=99t say for sure that really happened or not.=C2=A0 Peace,Pat Pat Horne=C2=A0We support Habitat for Humanity On Dec 12, 2022, at 10:05 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote: =EF=BB=BFI'm putting this out to the group to getsome opinions from the rea= l experts here. If you put a manually car or truck inneutral and release the clutch while g= oing down long hills or coming toa stop at a intersection, are you doing an= y damage? I'm not worried about fuel savings,just is coasting in neutral with the clu= tch release. Any thoughts? Moose_______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arch= ive xas@icloud.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arch= ive ssey@cs.com ------=_Part_654925_517438750.1671022001804 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I flat-towed a TR6 50 miles.  I replaced the tr= ansmission a year later.  The bushings on the main shaft failed. = But that is because there is no oiling taking place when the engine is NOT= running and the main shaft is turning within the stationary gears.  I= f the engine is running the layshaft is turning distributing the oil and ke= eping everything lubricated. 

Also, this was after a 50 mile tow.

Dave
<= br>



-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Horne <patintexas@icloud.com>
To: eric@megageek.com
Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Sent: Mon, Dec 12, 2022 11:28 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate

In general, I don=E2=80=99t see any problem. However I recall somethin= g similar decades ago where a tow truck driver did a two wheel haul on a ca= r that was very low on trans fluid. After a long tow the trans bearings hea= ted up & seized. Can=E2=80=99t say for sure that really happened or not= . 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity

On Dec 12, 2022, at 10:05 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote:

= =EF=BB=BFI'm putting this out to the g= roup to get some opinions from the real experts here.

If you put a manual= ly car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage?

I'm not worried abo= ut fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release.

Any thoughts?

Moose_= ______________________________________________

Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.n= et/archive


Unsubscribe/Manage= : http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas@icloud.com

------=_Part_654925_517438750.1671022001804-- --===============4359324272697081949== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============4359324272697081949==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 14 06:14:10 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 341C6A0D2A for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 06:14:10 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (unknown [66.163.191.147]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21334A10A4 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 06:07:14 -0700 (MST) t=1671023249; bh=ZuhZvt8qkZ0HmR2HggborFxvKkZ4D4C7kJ0BOA+ur0I=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=hDGQ10LL7pmQXOCVwR7wHNtCSBA4X7gc+776OW5BKR9ZLotnTIYcgw1MOk/Qf1A3LWudqBC0/Ft350X+1JJ6NYWw7sJYdhNUmxSqeQ3txQtHCVyerbdtizZUE0nr6WRGDvSNBcphm8wWaBmOQEb6X4n9lXKGyinlBkQiqJW4zLziLTJTm3rcfFCqVfdfdM2TtJytKRataFccclcfBxmlOcA/pPKO1exxaOMWGyc8gbw3QH8QXhWUG6XgISRUUBG9FDo6C95ZNiCVSXhM04GJ9MYe5jxXmeJ7ea7xJQP5ojw16nQMYeQU7WUZJLL+uTfBsjlb678uKwWEOyKR/ivCwA== t=1671023249; bh=itgPKdbVdTPraqGFUEnVm5Y+K+G4JtInBeCTFlU6z5K=; h=X-Sonic-MF:Date:From:To:Subject:From:Subject; b=C0F420eEP/ySUrpSzOlT7WwYcwXTwlCFMfJzbS8dxdYyWrYeHpmCcN0Rm0cVbNi7psP5/9zVbqTP3WbienE+PR5z1THs+BDr+AN9hpWZP0UJ80xu999LSas4z3fXJKrW/Y5s66uVO8ou3AFQqWlbKoVuPRX0+PGeFARsaVBbRSqGhxWC0IYriKPU7V1KFLa/8hOC+LPGGc6nUch/EDNtfPVKBtmhNfQ2oUQRpSyRQtmSvzTef0Srr5QHx0tPBiPkLsh0bwW8+a/o9CnhMelAJEAWlo8/jElZ5pKAYD1HGvDZV/1v5rUQ3Ybqg6w38NOseI7c35UzV/XOlq+q5WXkwg== v7W8XFC18F2nhTCwbaPRGOt4EMsYdorGia._TPA2kSOaGtZxer6xO3_tcyj9_Hb0ZjM2xyQuyFt3 WM.P1b4qrQlLo9_zdnBG19TakFRO8_9LITGm2GfhWnEHr4iRiL9TPGco96ZmOVdDis4BvHEwUIZv Pu4rcZ2kdm6VfcBFTHYJov0fh2m2iejCuJrcXehex5j_JpaTg0Y06wS_UxTgCX3Eq7vELDaOjzwD jrrpxxSzR.qhkUHKsEx77Po5kVTffMVET9FyzongbA0uM8T7LiHDp5Ea9Fh6zgrXzSIQHILxjEP7 nJay.TQsfTSbLJWEteQHDKsaxJbeBr4WGR1wAjMvbK17XQtKLATiYaIgJ5ZoQFTerEMdGoc1BNl0 wdcmVMKJIUyDUUWMYv77Q3VGrjgM0uRbxZN_ZVkWWWtL1n6nNi.aCZKbPHL0eUzwxJzm73o2eRAv 7Qv3bMOD8Qqq43rRx6DIv5kzpcqb_QwZ7Cp8L_bIawPcWyFzYN_ED8r5Vljx53QpCFLfrn6UpJ2I ZXMphEs9eIIlGH3ebMFccjmAL1ILvPHA.D._gLmMdUdhz1Iu2gW5MfOE2t3JkPZMEmixuPZOGfay RaI5Vt6XKAQip24OxwERGoRAluXQaybsPZ0kWaJwLxmLawm5oNJT1_TGKe.ViASS484R_CDDCygE NqJ66Pv37goMiqQkf_F17jWJ.DuBy1CZXN0eRAqIUTAi9dT0KzC7nv3JwRST0WdtMibDeC2.2EaF 8cTG2qNEghkBG5wp3Y_KgAooHTLBzbPBRgsN8pbpVl9PSJlLmQZofkyVD1kdZ5Cr4x_OyPcmTVkx 1g2XulV2HioAgadhW1Aar57eqH3lEaEMxZ9ZIM2VuIaGTvdWsp66xOKlgZbemqf7IK5acqQVzkup cxJLhfcvUby9w7V...4gBRJhi0d_cVjEtnD15zulCPK4ruHfdSmx5eoQ01AKKgbUKHE4fntjE.ba xWjBvzWKENKaQub9doyngdDl2ZUz.40A5UyPeXNQjohElI3Q6brPZEakIKusDFSAAe4_ZSlixmIS J4Z4Ya0ThX76S_EXtEClEtuQlQv9niKAMNSaeghGaLYS8aUJzC5yltD20t.qPDc5yqB_PNzU9YRt kgvIsF4FcANO4g861kW2aZ.flUzY2QbhFR8n0SFih2LvsXyWCGSWerlo7XxROv8ZcxTOgtvWQG6l DGqssnIoBg.SCpAxNDR4nQvi5h7rsKgrnBQjNlopgwxYgTjhF92QI4ygbZw7Wg5sSUmmwJDgjVRr 9Mhf53d.rtEL3q9ik5opVJ6AbyKIjUAyZ57VQ6sGMY8EE9XjLYHGQub6Qus12ToULWBPiV0aXoFP 4IQScEI4x29mGtWFa_1sf6IrXmvrVEonuVvmUZGB2nlS19k18g5_qXhvLfNeuSO.JRQ_k4FsNzqQ hr5Neqm6eqDdxLRekY8Zg3N8tJdsFxt5S8qBPvcJUP6GxbNcZbImf5yf7bV8ms2pK_Wm92JoY1pM p4nstctiAwpcpeMr_wVJe3grpgZL_oGCTfXVIVw70LZINP.7D_wVRU2B.lR32j6yKcBg7xQpWc1Y DAIi9koUejVpa6ToOz7wu27GJO_1ExSsFSXm6xD.oq5HnvoUPnQLnDDJuoi1IDh_2h5eh55jtEcw AT2po_byEvFmli2l1E9mwLsKoyHQNRLG56TYTFm4uKUEA9EtKXllKJOyhBzYnU30nNqDbbdm3H7u xOAcp0o6JnAYOtZt3dwfySEY7Mr44EaDfOoBqIrVLL4E.hbAnbKBoa.moZokviJBAjRAcCRmujcH IWVD65qvnkxYHx0Vjf26LrIE4i.Di9VubM8WjPpm_7M1q9g9JyhWdjE_H9gK8Gn.thw5aZeKOivS 4.rh_M.Cyx4x.ZX32tuyE7UWjeFnqvjMbQDxeFtGnWnmEwxadW67WpsrUvNYrest.MevXOVhnB9B jFqD5cRQOXgiH4iDmz3eo7b1WK70yNmY5Qi4jPQkKLSB_CzhG4EusZ0W1HsGY2hX3anK7CmBHzbb 1rhstJs1UPQ7LV5Iu02jMvcBQNfUeSUnLW9rwFfIOD8eiOXVkI.0ut.CJYjVd8Cfj5DDn_uDnl4C CTLxLT1aX8Yus3co0V2dJn1x6KwlDnkJi9D29ODozlhFYaIfIOwpk.ggZzElj5XrHHHvzdpdKvYq KyAn81eaqqXptjy09Lm1_BOrviv6V Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:07:29 +0000 Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:07:25 +0000 (UTC) From: DAVID MASSEY To: "jdinnis@gmail.com" , "eric@megageek.com" References: <67734658-0B27-4C88-8F80-827F468E3747@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought Cc: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============6661522956711009535== boundary="----=_Part_861075_616595889.1671023245515" ------=_Part_861075_616595889.1671023245515 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Big trucks have a device called a Jake Brake that increases the normal com= pression braking. Here is s snip from this website:=C2=A0 https://www.truckingtruth.com/wiki/= topic-91/jake-brake It is a separate component installed on diesel engines, that when engaged, = releases stored, compressed air from the cylinder at the top of the piston'= s stroke, preventing it from from returning it's energy to the crankshaft a= nd powering the down-stroke, and slowing the vehicle as the air is compress= ed. When engaged they produce an objectionable amount of noise which is why the= y are banned in some residential areas.=C2=A0 But they are effective in red= ucing the amount of brake use and an 18-wheeler has 10 sets of brakes so... =20 Dave=20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: John Innis To: eric@megageek.com Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Sent: Tue, Dec 13, 2022 5:34 pm Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final= thought Not sure if you tell with a car, but a big truck you can hear the differenc= e.=C2=A0 Even without using a compression brake they do make some noise whe= n going down hill in gear.=C2=A0 There is a long gentle hill coming into to= wn not far from where I live.=C2=A0 It always seems the commercial vehicle = enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) are staked out there around harvest time= . On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 2:59 PM wrote: Thanks for everyonethat gave me input. My only questionis, How would a cop know you are coasting? I mean, I wasa cop and never thought about it. Any ideas? Moose_______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arch= ive @gmail.com --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D Never offend people with style when you=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D =3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown=C2=A0 =3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arch= ive ssey@cs.com ------=_Part_861075_616595889.1671023245515 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Big trucks have a device called a Jake Brake that increases the normal compression braking.

Here is s snip from this website:  https://www.truckingtruth.com/wiki/topic-91/jake-brake

It is a separate component installed on diesel engines, that when engaged, releases stored, compressed air from the cylinder at the top of the piston's stroke, preventing it from from returning it's energy to the crankshaft and powering the down-stroke, and slowing the vehicle as the air is compressed.

When engaged they produce an objectionable amount of noise which is why they are banned in some residential areas.  But they are effective in reducing the amount of brake use and an 18-wheeler has 10 sets of brakes so...

Dave




-----Original Message-----
From: John Innis <jdinnis@gmail.com>
To: eric@megageek.com
Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Sent: Tue, Dec 13, 2022 5:34 pm
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought

Not sure if you tell with a car, but a big truck you can hear the difference.  Even without using a compression brake they do make some noise when going down hill in gear.  There is a long gentle hill coming into town not far from where I live.  It always seems the commercial vehicle enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) are staked out there around harvest time.

On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 2:59 PM <eric@megageek.com> wrote:
Thanks for everyone that gave me input.

My only question is, How would a cop know you are coasting?

I mean, I was a cop and never thought about it.

Any ideas?

Moose _______________________________________________

Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis@gmail.com



--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =

=================================
------=_Part_861075_616595889.1671023245515-- --===============6661522956711009535== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============6661522956711009535==-- From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 14 12:37:51 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F14A169F for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 12:37:51 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bumble.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (unknown [23.83.209.25]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA4FA01C1 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 10:53:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C140E3416FF for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 17:53:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a267.dreamhost.com (unknown [127.0.0.6]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 31A7E341B81 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 17:53:19 +0000 (UTC) ARC-Seal: i=1; s=arc-2022; d=mailchannels.net; t=1671040399; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=p7KvrThi1mc/O55laJpeT/Et4WLnJmqQYhtd7R9fHoGcOScNstdC1PEUXEN9OjmycI29R6 3r2lJDMazBhDEdFTbKsWqTRhOb4IoGRfxaCsw3T/TAo9pEWszR1KZr/dfF3iyMO9P+n/nf wT7IJfwheNUIrAQ/SBVQ0og6zen2LGdXQqjZmf3EIfMvT4uLc9oqt41TlOLzZi/BbZ1aNF TpqFh8NQXutVCrapywS9Va700tnb1J7h18f+IL1l/vWJLQifzgJNyGk2VOrup5aTBRaIcm WtBiKjt5v7t+/4aieTjvjg7sEWHZgj7RHPC73ncVPRjiSWwTUq57dZxe/TrNvw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailchannels.net; s=arc-2022; t=1671040399; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: bh=BP3PD198wmiujtCdAuD9o8GA1DbF8rBE4uTV1ykuP+0=; b=06I9YV0wH4K3WdAKkVooEA88lnOSrfhHz+XGKvhrxJ3eEhv1HfYV8hnl3gZFju6jllMN25 lLRbNOldvE3hkqAJVyHjetc+62XVaQ7vQg5vmYv0irhzVxrD7KFxFW+CjfGPjnXvCjR7Q2 xe3faMKzm4YyNsrHxRpbf6AXvaA+Y0r/9qlvkgSxxYsuomTvli4vPTCh48/bft4X9sQ9Cg CDd3pFE2cZzdEVI5igV+NJBnEscH2woSzg/BVaQhhTa/8zniR1+9sG0z+x1t54r6z5Hfzb w1At348WRbpE3r5lLX14nxGrMIixQc3/lt4aFxc2tVcwjecfmvMhdcjpMdK7rA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; rspamd-d48c5ddb-q5nfm; auth=pass smtp.auth=dreamhost smtp.mailfrom=jem@milleredp.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a267.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by 100.103.24.117 (trex/6.7.1); Wed, 14 Dec 2022 17:53:19 +0000 Received: from [10.1.2.207] (c-67-161-16-174.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.161.16.174]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jem@milleredp.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a267.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4NXNJG65wxz5y for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 09:53:18 -0800 (PST) s=dreamhost; t=1671040398; bh=BP3PD198wmiujtCdAuD9o8GA1DbF8rBE4uTV1ykuP+0=; h=Date:Subject:To:From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=QINuTGnAvk7aEVMvFCnlpoCT2NiGwxCJ1M0KY6wirbhCwikZ2+ogkE/AvYCf9CZ01 7s6NqAqlgDqbBO+/fUeVrEeuCBpigqOpQ3S+nA1eVcRAV22Ii49msZslKQ7RMDHAm0 fnECmNygj7S83ye96SnY/GBdxskIHX7GNX7H22+ZbHH0hmAznIpbzrFtWr0iDT1BZD brjQhhZBuGD2LZvXxROzXs8XPZWyFdnIPJNL4O2uDVqznJwq8Lva5gb90P+znYZCdE 29JTKA/sZ8ImdFAevXPCdtJIa+0nRwK/VtctpFlUA/P5csjmBEf30CBA08CJQPP+nO kgTZwHlcb5VpA== Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 09:52:12 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.5.1 Content-Language: en-US To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <67734658-0B27-4C88-8F80-827F468E3747@gmail.com> From: John Miller Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > vehicle enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) Now if the officers so positioned are lesbians...never mind. A diesel without a Jake or other compression assistance might sound different but won't make much engine braking. An Otto might not sound much different but the braking difference in or out of gear will be significant. The whole 'coasting in neutral' thing mattered maybe back in a day when brakes were FAR poorer than the modern norm. Wouldn't be surprised to find many modern hybrids effectively shut off the engine and just use all that downhill for regen. The Aisin/Toyota/Ford FWD hybrid transaxle design is so beautifully simple...as long as the electronics work. I think every Ford C-Max in the country migrated to California as soon as gas hit $4.50. Love to find one... John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Dec 14 14:37:32 2022 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from [50.198.190.17] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FF0BA1314 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 14:37:32 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wr1-f49.google.com (unknown [209.85.221.49]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC365A0756 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:20:02 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-wr1-f49.google.com with SMTP id h16so953174wrz.12 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 12:20:17 -0800 (PST) h=cc:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=sE8zvQNHAr3FQQoVcokK/Zn9Gu83fC4JkDJ2gNlSVAQ=; b=UZ78mnk5uLA5Ovi7wG4YCJDY2KwFYv975Gk8DISc3in+D9dM82Ks+aFJVy3G3p6BAu JstBZ0cSB5hHJzo/9k7ZlnTH9+4PwQyKpEDNfmULVpX7eVIXp+t+5Ll4xhbZEst3Ea6Z u7YyDE2BKPX8uSHVXQa9UXkhw5HxOyFSnZeLOJnGCwYlfyvmd5tqwGEBJz/O4arbLYxa wTVg33v0xErFyZhUyLX7i4qmjvLB3ZRoT4x427NsIrUOph8YDifPN4qeACqmFauVx9hn cGflMKLcbbIWSphZbon1DpXi/j/tKOnpfqjkF2SpADHcq1H03xCnMKRGQ4Wq/pMWiDzW G8JA== d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=sE8zvQNHAr3FQQoVcokK/Zn9Gu83fC4JkDJ2gNlSVAQ=; b=I/eGolB4qdJ94mboA9/yf4yhoEVq0bO8kfCyGFD8ckRBlT3dzTPNjFalwLRdhWGI6a 3ynVhG9/AebdnXtmK9xJmEliYBk05aAo7/WqTZFzlmbVusZQY4QB4Ili5DlSMsY7WHaf 56KM0T849H60qDqlWGZabn04/rULZmAimKWpdorPo86GyvimtwHsuCvSrG2NMAujr0Bv ImBOyvzJAr43pC7N1hpZibYe20iTY0B+UAUEVNtTOgSWyBnGk63pEpLBYdyzIgnhuaO9 gEuDBJCF41J9rbdU7P2XRSzYlkTKf5IlS7tcP7PSyQROF/P6Dt2gKyRsMPRN06ZGGGow iEzw== d9afS9NLoQDe4agAEl+7jtbdn6RpierfFhqbHhVs04gl r2-20020a056000014200b0024249d99d8fmr6010163wrx.446.1671049215997; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 12:20:15 -0800 (PST) References: <67734658-0B27-4C88-8F80-827F468E3747@gmail.com> From: Jeff Scarbrough Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 15:20:04 -0500 Cc: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net --===============4330127033003953327== --000000000000ebfb1e05efcf767d Many hybrid vehicles do use regenerative braking, but remember that using the electric motor as a generator puts a load on the drive system analogous to otto-cycle engine braking. So it's not the same as coasting in neutral. We had an early hybrid Ford Focus in our work fleet. The braking system had a built-in computer to decide the best (of three) methods of slowing the vehicle when it sensed pressure on the brake pedal. Here's an article about just how much goes on between your foot and the wheels:. https://www.underhoodservice.com/tech-feature-ford-hybrid-braking/ On Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 14:47 John Miller wrote: > > vehicle enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) > > Now if the officers so positioned are lesbians...never mind. > > A diesel without a Jake or other compression assistance might sound > different but won't make much engine braking. > > An Otto might not sound much different but the braking difference in or > out of gear will be significant. > > The whole 'coasting in neutral' thing mattered maybe back in a day when > brakes were FAR poorer than the modern norm. Wouldn't be surprised to > find many modern hybrids effectively shut off the engine and just use > all that downhill for regen. > > The Aisin/Toyota/Ford FWD hybrid transaxle design is so beautifully > simple...as long as the electronics work. I think every Ford C-Max in > the country migrated to California as soon as gas hit $4.50. Love to > find one... > > John. > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate@gmail.com > > --000000000000ebfb1e05efcf767d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Many hybrid vehicles do use regenerative braking, but rem= ember that using the electric motor as a generator puts a load on the drive= system analogous to otto-cycle engine braking.=C2=A0 So it's not the s= ame as coasting in neutral.

We= had an early hybrid Ford Focus in our work fleet.=C2=A0 The braking system= had a built-in computer to decide the best (of three) methods of slowing t= he vehicle when it sensed pressure on the brake pedal.=C2=A0 Here's an = article about just how much goes on between your foot and the wheels:. = https://www.underhoodservice.com/tech-feature-ford-hybrid-braking/

On Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 14:47 John Miller <jem@milleredp.com> wrote:
> vehicle enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops)

Now if the officers so positioned are lesbians...never mind.

A diesel without a Jake or other compression assistance might sound
different but won't make much engine braking.

An Otto might not sound much different but the braking difference in or out of gear will be significant.

The whole 'coasting in neutral' thing mattered maybe back in a day = when
brakes were FAR poorer than the modern norm.=C2=A0 Wouldn't be surprise= d to
find many modern hybrids effectively shut off the engine and just use
all that downhill for regen.

The Aisin/Toyota/Ford FWD hybrid transaxle design is so beautifully
simple...as long as the electronics work.=C2=A0 I think every Ford C-Max in=
the country migrated to California as soon as gas hit $4.50.=C2=A0 Love to =
find one...

John.

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk@autox.team.net
errer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

alk/fishplate@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht= tp://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate@gmail.com

--000000000000ebfb1e05efcf767d-- --===============4330127033003953327== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive --===============4330127033003953327==--