Subject: [Shop-talk] tankless/instant water heater

From: "john niolon" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 16:26:41 -0600

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tired of just cold (really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking ab=
out a=20
tankless/instant water heater.  Would like to stay
with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around i=
n attic=20
dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available plug
within 6 ' of sink

pros and cons ? recommendations. =20
This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting up =
my tools  (shop content)

thanks
john

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<DIV><FONT face=3D"Segoe UI">tired of just cold (really cold) water in=
 the shop sink./..thinking about a tankless/instant water heater.&nbsp=
; Would like to stay</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Segoe UI">with 120v if possible to avoid additional=
 wiring (me crawling around in attic dragging wire with bad knees and =
hips.&nbsp; I have an available plug</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Segoe UI">within 6 ' of sink</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Segoe UI"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Segoe UI">pros and cons ? recommendations.&nbsp; <B=
R>This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting u=
p my <STRONG>tools&nbsp; </STRONG>(shop content)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Segoe UI"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Segoe UI">thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Segoe UI">john</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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_______________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 17:31:27 -0500 01/24/2022 05:31:27 PM, Serialize complete at 01/24/2022 05:31:27 PM

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I installed one in my garage and it is the way to go.  I actually keep it 
ready to make REALLY hot water. It is awesome for cleaning parts and such 
as well.

Mine is a 120v and was super easy to install and plumb.

After about 12/13 years, the TP valve is a little flaky and I'm to busy to 
change it.  Every now and then it starts to leak a little and I just have 
to turn off the unit, let it cool and turn it back on and its fine.

I'm sure the units no are way better then what I have.

I can't think of any cons.  GO FOR IT!!!  (Besides, its an excuse to by 
another tool.)

Moose
--=_alternative 007BBB07852587D4_=

<font size=2 face="sans-serif">I installed one in my garage and it is
the way to go. &nbsp;I actually keep it ready to make REALLY hot water.
It is awesome for cleaning parts and such as well.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Mine is a 120v and was super easy to
install and plumb.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">After about 12/13 years, the TP valve
is a little flaky and I'm to busy to change it. &nbsp;Every now and then
it starts to leak a little and I just have to turn off the unit, let it
cool and turn it back on and its fine.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I'm sure the units no are way better
then what I have.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I can't think of any cons. &nbsp;GO
FOR IT!!! &nbsp;(Besides, its an excuse to by another tool.)</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Moose</font>
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[email-masked]

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From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 16:39:17 -0600

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 4:27 PM john niolon <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> tired of just cold (really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking about a tankless/instant water heater.  Would like to stay
> with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in attic dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available plug
> within 6 ' of sink
>
> pros and cons ? recommendations.
> This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting up my tools  (shop content)
>

an 1800W tankless water heater (the biggest you can plug into 120V
outlet) will have a temperature rise of 25 degrees at 0.5 gpm.
(that's the physics of water.  they're all going to have similar
performance.  Anything that claims better is lying or has a tank)
That will turn cold water into less cold water, or warm water into hot
water.  you probably want something with a tank.

-- 
David Scheidt
[email-masked]

[email-masked]

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From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 17:51:42 -0500

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I just returned from an extended trip to my step-mother=E2=80=99s house, =
which has tankless instant hot water heaters [one for the kitchen and =
one for the two bathrooms]. I=E2=80=99m a convert!

=20

----------------

All the best,

=20

Al Fuller

=20

From: Shop-talk <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of john =
niolon
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 5:27 PM
To: shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Shop-talk] tankless/instant water heater

=20

tired of just cold (really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking =
about a tankless/instant water heater.  Would like to stay

with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in =
attic dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available plug

within 6 ' of sink

=20

pros and cons ? recommendations. =20
This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting up my =
tools  (shop content)

=20

thanks

john

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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>I just returned from an =
extended trip to my step-mother=E2=80=99s house, which has tankless =
instant hot water heaters [one for the kitchen and one for the two =
bathrooms]. I=E2=80=99m a convert!<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>----------------<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>All the best,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Al =
Fuller<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Shop-talk =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>john =
niolon<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 24, 2022 5:27 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
shop-talk &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> =
[Shop-talk] tankless/instant water heater<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>tired of just cold (really =
cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking about a tankless/instant water =
heater.&nbsp; Would like to stay</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>with =
120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in attic =
dragging wire with bad knees and hips.&nbsp; I have an available =
plug</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>within 6 ' of =
sink</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>pros =
and cons ? recommendations.&nbsp; <br>This will strictly be a hand =
washing sink to be used after putting up my <strong><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>tools&nbsp; =
</span></strong>(shop content)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Segoe =
UI",sans-serif'>thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Segoe =
UI",sans-serif'>john</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
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[email-masked]

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From: Jim Franklin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 19:04:30 -0500

> On Jan 24, 2022, at 5:39 PM, David Scheidt <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 

I'm pretty sure that you can change the 120 outlet to a 240 3 prong outlet and use the existing wiring, as long as you re-wire it in the breaker box to have a 240 breaker and stay within the current limits. A dumb heater will not need a neutral so the 14/2 or 12/2 (with ground) will work unless I'm having a senior moment. 

That said I think for hand washing a 120v heater is plenty as long as you keep the flow down. Personally, I know me and I would start using it for more than hand washing, so I'd go bigger. Actually I'd get a small tank heater and insulate top & botton with rigid foam and sides with a blanket. And the pipes too. 

Let us know what you end up doing.

jim

[email-masked]

---

From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 21:42:49 -0600

> I'm pretty sure that you can change the 120 outlet to a 240 3 prong outlet and use the existing wiring, as long as you re-wire it in the breaker box to have a 240 breaker and stay within the curren…

You can do that if there's nothing else on that circuit, and you can
easily change the breaker.  a 20A 240V circuit lets you install a 4000
or 4200 W heater, which gives a heat rise of 65F at 0.5 gpm.  That's
probably enough temperature rise, even here where the incoming water
is currently less than 40F, but that's pretty low flow.  If you're
somewhere where 'cold' water is 60F, then it looks a lot better.  (a
gallon a minute is plenty for washing hands, it's slow if you want to
fill a sink or bucket).

It'll take a long time for the efficiency of tankless heater to pay
for the required changes though, and a plug in tank heater is cheap.

[email-masked]

---

From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 09:40:06 -0500

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I got tired of waiting for hot water in my kitchen (my dissatisfaction =
with my Rheem tankless water heater is a subject for a different day) =
and installed a 7 gallon Bosch water heater in the basement, as close to =
the kitchen faucet as I could get.  It makes an incredible difference =
and my wife considers it one of the best improvements I have made to our =
house in years. I am inclined to agree with her.  The 7 gallon version =
has to be hard-wired to a dedicated circuit, but the 2.5 and 4 gallon =
versions can be plugged in.  One of those should meet your needs pretty =
easily.  Here is a link to the Bosch units, although I am sure other =
brands will work just as well.

=
https://smile.amazon.com/Bosch-Mini-Tank-Tronic-3000-ES4/dp/B0148O65IE/ref=
=3Dsr_1_2_sspa?crid=3D1GEI41I05EXPQ&keywords=3Dunder%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheat=
er&qid=3D1643121197&sprefix=3Dunder%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater%2Caps%2C72&sr=3D=
8-2-spons&spLa=3DZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyTzhaMk9QNzlZMlhDJmVuY3J5cHRlZ=
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WNrPXRydWU&th=3D1

Jim

> On Jan 24, 2022, at 5:26 PM, john niolon <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around =
in attic dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available =
plug
my tools  (shop content)
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk =
http://autox.team.net/archive
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
got tired of waiting for hot water in my kitchen (my dissatisfaction =
with my Rheem tankless water heater is a subject for a different day) =
and installed a 7 gallon Bosch water heater in the basement, as close to =
the kitchen faucet as I could get. &nbsp;It makes an incredible =
difference and my wife considers it one of the best improvements I have =
made to our house in years. I am inclined to agree with her. &nbsp;The 7 =
gallon version has to be hard-wired to a dedicated circuit, but the 2.5 =
and 4 gallon versions can be plugged in. &nbsp;One of those should meet =
your needs pretty easily. &nbsp;Here is a link to the Bosch units, =
although I am sure other brands will work just as well.<div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://smile.amazon.com/Bosch-Mini-Tank-Tronic-3000-ES4/dp/B0148O=
65IE/ref=3Dsr_1_2_sspa?crid=3D1GEI41I05EXPQ&amp;keywords=3Dunder%2Bsink%2B=
water%2Bheater&amp;qid=3D1643121197&amp;sprefix=3Dunder%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bh=
eater%2Caps%2C72&amp;sr=3D8-2-spons&amp;spLa=3DZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE=
yTzhaMk9QNzlZMlhDJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUExMDEwNzk5M0RPREhQQTVYSllVUiZlbmNyeXB0Z=
WRBZElkPUEwMDIxNTQ4MzEwRUQyUUZBTThRSyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2x=
pY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&amp;th=3D1" =
class=3D"">https://smile.amazon.com/Bosch-Mini-Tank-Tronic-3000-ES4/dp/B01=
48O65IE/ref=3Dsr_1_2_sspa?crid=3D1GEI41I05EXPQ&amp;keywords=3Dunder%2Bsink=
%2Bwater%2Bheater&amp;qid=3D1643121197&amp;sprefix=3Dunder%2Bsink%2Bwater%=
2Bheater%2Caps%2C72&amp;sr=3D8-2-spons&amp;spLa=3DZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVy=
PUEyTzhaMk9QNzlZMlhDJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUExMDEwNzk5M0RPREhQQTVYSllVUiZlbmNyeX=
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Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&amp;th=3D1</a></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Jim<br class=3D""><div><br=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan =
24, 2022, at 5:26 PM, john niolon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
<meta name=3D"GENERATOR" content=3D"MSHTML 11.00.10570.1001" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><font face=3D"Segoe UI" class=3D"">tired of just cold =
(really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking about a =
tankless/instant water heater.&nbsp; Would like to stay</font></div>
<div class=3D""><font face=3D"Segoe UI" class=3D"">with 120v if possible =
to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in attic dragging wire =
with bad knees and hips.&nbsp; I have an available plug</font></div>
<div class=3D""><font face=3D"Segoe UI" class=3D"">within 6 ' of =
sink</font></div>
<div class=3D""><font face=3D"Segoe UI" class=3D""></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D""><font face=3D"Segoe UI" class=3D"">pros and cons ? =
recommendations.&nbsp; <br class=3D"">This will strictly be a hand =
washing sink to be used after putting up my <strong class=3D"">tools&nbsp;=
 </strong>(shop content)</font></div>
<div class=3D""><font face=3D"Segoe UI" class=3D""></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D""><font face=3D"Segoe UI" class=3D"">thanks</font></div>
<div class=3D""><font face=3D"Segoe UI" class=3D"">john</font></div></div>=

_______________________________________________<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a><br class=3D"">Donate: =
&nbsp;$12.96<br class=3D"">Archive: =
http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
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---

From: Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 10:09:24 -0500

So, is this installed in the cold water line?  Our master bath is a
long way from the primary water heater, and it takes a while for warm
water to make its way up.  But I'd have to plumb the tank outlet into
the regular hot water supply or take 4 minute showers.  Or plumb it
with a hot water supply...

On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 9:40 AM Jim Stone <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> I got tired of waiting for hot water in my kitchen (my dissatisfaction with my Rheem tankless water heater is a subject for a different day) and installed a 7 gallon Bosch water heater in the basement, as close to the kitchen faucet as I could get.  It makes an incredible difference and my wife considers it one of the best improvements I have made to our house in years. I am inclined to agree with her.  The 7 gallon version has to be hard-wired to a dedicated circuit, but the 2.5 and 4 gallon versions can be plugged in.  One of those should meet your needs pretty easily.  Here is a link to the Bosch units, although I am sure other brands will work just as well.
>
> https://smile.amazon.com/Bosch-Mini-Tank-Tronic-3000-ES4/dp/B0148O65IE/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1GEI41I05EXPQ&keywords=under%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater&qid=1643121197&sprefix=under%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater%2Caps%2C72&sr=8-2-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyTzhaMk9QNzlZMlhDJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUExMDEwNzk5M0RPREhQQTVYSllVUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDIxNTQ4MzEwRUQyUUZBTThRSyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1
>
> Jim
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>

[email-masked]

---

From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 10:37:36 -0500

It is plumbed to the hot water line.  These heaters have two potential uses: as a sole source of hot water (e.g., for a sink where there isn’t another hot water source) or as supplemental heat for situations like mine.  For us, it is really just for hand washing and dish washing and not to have to waste so much water waiting for the main heater to kick in.  I don’t notice a drop off after extended use, so I assume 7 gallons is enough to allow the main hot water to come through.  The installation instructions cover both methods and do warn you not to set the heat on the main unit too high; as I recall, the max for incoming water was something like 140º.

Jim

> On Jan 25, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 

[email-masked]

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From: Jimmie Mayfield <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 11:14:03 -0500

On 1/25/22 09:40, Jim Stone wrote:
> I got tired of waiting for hot water in my kitchen (my dissatisfaction 
> with my Rheem tankless water heater is a subject for a different day)

I'm curious...what bad experiences did you have with your tankless heater?

[email-masked]

---

From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:30:11 -0500

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I held off answering Jimmie=E2=80=99s question below until the original =
topic seemed to have played out.  With that now apparently done, here is =
my experience with full house tankless heaters.

I have two tankless heaters, one in my garage - which has a small living =
area adjacent to it and two bedrooms and a bathroom above it - and one =
in my house.  Both are propane fired, as I live in a fairly rural area =
and natural gas isn=E2=80=99t available here. The garage unit is a =
combination DHW and hydronic heating unit (I have heated floors in the =
shop and downstairs living area) made by a company called Laars.  =
https://www.laars.com <https://www.laars.com/>. I have no complaints =
with that unit and love having heated floors in the garage.  (I ran the =
lines before the concrete was poured.)

My house is a very small (780 sq ft) ranch house and has a Rheem =
tankless unit (RTGH-900VLP-2) that was installed when the house was =
completely rebuilt (as in, new house built on the original foundation) =
three years ago. The shower is no more than 15ft from the heater, yet it =
takes several minutes to get hot water to the shower.  It was =
instantaneous when we had a conventional tank unit, but my community =
requires new construction to meet specific energy efficiency standards =
that required us to use a tankless unit.  I complained about the heat =
when the unit was new and an inspection revealed a faulty mixing valve, =
which was replaced under warranty.  I was still unhappy and Rheem told =
me how to bypass the preset maximum temperature of 120=C2=BA and it is =
better with the unit set to 130=C2=BA or 140=C2=BA, but I have a hard =
time believing that should be necessary.  As I said, it took a separate =
small electric unit to be able to get fast heat to the kitchen and there =
is maybe 40=E2=80=99 of insulated PEX pipe between the heater and the =
sink. (The temp in the basement is generally around 60=C2=BA.)

The Rheem unit was recommended by my plumber and is highly rated, so =
maybe my unit is just a lemon.  But, I spoke with a plumber before =
installing the 7.5 gallon unit for the sink and he told me he installs a =
lot of small =E2=80=98point of use=E2=80=99 tanked units in house with =
tankless heaters, so my complaint can=E2=80=99t be unique to my heater.  =
Overall, I like the fact that my house is very energy efficient, but I =
really miss the days when I could hop in the shower immediately and not =
have to worry about waiting for the water to warm up.=20

Jim

> On Jan 25, 2022, at 11:14 AM, Jimmie Mayfield =
<[email-masked]> wrote:
>> I got tired of waiting for hot water in my kitchen (my =
dissatisfaction with my Rheem tankless water heater is a subject for a =
different day)
>=20
>=20
> I'm curious...what bad experiences did you have with your tankless =
heater?

--Apple-Mail=_C984BDEA-85AF-4759-9E91-5B80A4C43541
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
held off answering Jimmie=E2=80=99s question below until the original =
topic seemed to have played out. &nbsp;With that now apparently done, =
here is my experience with full house tankless heaters.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I have two tankless heaters, one in my garage - which has a =
small living area adjacent to it and two bedrooms and a bathroom above =
it - and one in my house. &nbsp;Both are propane fired, as I live in a =
fairly rural area and natural gas isn=E2=80=99t available here. The =
garage unit is a combination DHW and hydronic heating unit (I have =
heated floors in the shop and downstairs living area) made by a company =
called Laars. &nbsp;<a href=3D"https://www.laars.com" =
class=3D"">https://www.laars.com</a>. I have no complaints with that =
unit and love having heated floors in the garage. &nbsp;(I ran the lines =
before the concrete was poured.)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">My house =
is a very small (780 sq ft) ranch house and has a Rheem tankless unit =
(RTGH-900VLP-2) that was installed when the house was completely =
rebuilt&nbsp;(as in, new house built on the original =
foundation)&nbsp;three years ago. The shower is no more than 15ft from =
the heater, yet it takes several minutes to get hot water to the shower. =
&nbsp;It was instantaneous when we had a conventional tank unit, but my =
community requires new construction to meet specific energy efficiency =
standards that required us to use a tankless unit. &nbsp;I complained =
about the heat when the unit was new and an inspection revealed a faulty =
mixing valve, which was replaced under warranty. &nbsp;I was still =
unhappy and Rheem told me how to bypass the preset maximum temperature =
of 120=C2=BA and it is better with the unit set to 130=C2=BA or 140=C2=BA,=
 but I have a hard time believing that should be necessary. &nbsp;As I =
said, it took a separate small electric unit to be able to get fast heat =
to the kitchen and there is maybe 40=E2=80=99 of insulated PEX pipe =
between the heater and the sink. (The temp in the basement is generally =
around 60=C2=BA.)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The Rheem unit was =
recommended by my plumber and is highly rated, so maybe my unit is just =
a lemon. &nbsp;But, I spoke with a plumber before installing the 7.5 =
gallon unit for the sink and he told me he installs a lot of small =
=E2=80=98point of use=E2=80=99 tanked units in house with tankless =
heaters, so my complaint can=E2=80=99t be unique to my heater. =
&nbsp;Overall, I like the fact that my house is very energy efficient, =
but I really miss the days when I could hop in the shower immediately =
and not have to worry about waiting for the water to warm up.&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Jim<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Jan 25, 2022, at 11:14 AM, Jimmie Mayfield &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
1/25/22 09:40, Jim Stone wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">I got tired of waiting for hot water in my kitchen (my =
dissatisfaction with my Rheem tankless water heater is a subject for a =
different day)<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I'm curious...what bad experiences did you have with your =
tankless heater?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a><br class=3D"">Donate: =
&nbsp;$12.96<br class=3D"">Archive: =
http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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[email-masked]

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---

From: DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 13:13:05 +0000 (UTC)

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 Jim, your plumber may have made that recommendation based on reliability a=
nd not necessarily on performance.=C2=A0=20

A coworker of mine installed a tankless heater because he has a wife and tw=
o daughters who would regularly empty the 30 gallon tank when showering.=C2=
=A0 He noted that the heater would delay heating water to the point that th=
e front-loading washer would never draw water long enough to get it to kick=
 in.=C2=A0 My speculation is that the manufacturer programmed in a delay to=
 confirm a good, solid hot water demand in pursuit of their energy rating.
15 feet of 1/2 inch tubing will hold about .05 gallons of water.=C2=A0 Most=
 shower heads deliver 1 GPM.=C2=A0 That means it should take about 3 second=
s to purge the cold water out of the line.=C2=A0 OK, 6 seconds if you are d=
rawing a mix of hot and cold.=C2=A0 Several minutes is probably the heater =
control.=C2=A0 Maybe the flow switch is not sensitive enough to detect the =
flow at that level.
=20
Dave=20

=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
To: Shop Talk <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thu, Jan 27, 2022 8:30 pm
Subject: [Shop-talk] Whole house tankless heater experience. Was: tankless/=
instant water heater

I held off answering Jimmie=E2=80=99s question below until the original top=
ic seemed to have played out. =C2=A0With that now apparently done, here is =
my experience with full house tankless heaters.

I have two tankless heaters, one in my garage - which has a small living ar=
ea adjacent to it and two bedrooms and a bathroom above it - and one in my =
house. =C2=A0Both are propane fired, as I live in a fairly rural area and n=
atural gas isn=E2=80=99t available here. The garage unit is a combination D=
HW and hydronic heating unit (I have heated floors in the shop and downstai=
rs living area) made by a company called Laars. =C2=A0https://www.laars.com=
. I have no complaints with that unit and love having heated floors in the =
garage. =C2=A0(I ran the lines before the concrete was poured.)

My house is a very small (780 sq ft) ranch house and has a Rheem tankless u=
nit (RTGH-900VLP-2) that was installed when the house was completely rebuil=
t=C2=A0(as in, new house built on the original foundation)=C2=A0three years=
 ago. The shower is no more than 15ft from the heater, yet it takes several=
 minutes to get hot water to the shower. =C2=A0It was instantaneous when we=
 had a conventional tank unit, but my community requires new construction t=
o meet specific energy efficiency standards that required us to use a tankl=
ess unit. =C2=A0I complained about the heat when the unit was new and an in=
spection revealed a faulty mixing valve, which was replaced under warranty.=
 =C2=A0I was still unhappy and Rheem told me how to bypass the preset maxim=
um temperature of 120=C2=BA and it is better with the unit set to 130=C2=BA=
 or 140=C2=BA, but I have a hard time believing that should be necessary. =
=C2=A0As I said, it took a separate small electric unit to be able to get f=
ast heat to the kitchen and there is maybe 40=E2=80=99 of insulated PEX pip=
e between the heater and the sink. (The temp in the basement is generally a=
round 60=C2=BA.)

The Rheem unit was recommended by my plumber and is highly rated, so maybe =
my unit is just a lemon. =C2=A0But, I spoke with a plumber before installin=
g the 7.5 gallon unit for the sink and he told me he installs a lot of smal=
l =E2=80=98point of use=E2=80=99 tanked units in house with tankless heater=
s, so my complaint can=E2=80=99t be unique to my heater. =C2=A0Overall, I l=
ike the fact that my house is very energy efficient, but I really miss the =
days when I could hop in the shower immediately and not have to worry about=
 waiting for the water to warm up.=C2=A0

Jim
------=_Part_3508317_1777824101.1643375585362
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div style=3D"color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"3">Jim, your plumber may have made that recommendation =
based on reliability and not necessarily on performance.&nbsp; <br>
</font></div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div><font size=3D"3">A coworker of mine installed a tankless heater becaus=
e he has a wife and two daughters who would regularly empty the 30 gallon t=
ank when showering.&nbsp; He noted that the heater would delay heating wate=
r to the point that the front-loading washer would never draw water long en=
ough to get it to kick in.&nbsp; My speculation is that the manufacturer pr=
ogrammed in a delay to confirm a good, solid hot water demand in pursuit of=
 their energy rating.</font></div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div><font size=3D"3">15 feet of 1/2 inch tubing will hold about .05 gallon=
s of water.&nbsp; Most shower heads deliver 1 GPM.&nbsp; That means it shou=
ld take about 3 seconds to purge the cold water out of the line.&nbsp; OK, =
6 seconds if you are drawing a mix of hot and cold.&nbsp; Several minutes i=
s probably the heater control.&nbsp; Maybe the flow switch is not sensitive=
 enough to detect the flow at that level.</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"clear:both"><font size=3D"4">Dave </font><br>
<br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
 size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Jim Stone &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: Shop Talk &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Thu, Jan 27, 2022 8:30 pm<br>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Whole house tankless heater experience. Was: tankless/=
instant water heater<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"yiv3038752637">
<div>I held off answering Jimmie=E2=80=99s question below until the origina=
l topic seemed to have played out. &nbsp;With that now apparently done, her=
e is my experience with full house tankless heaters.<br class=3D"yiv3038752=
637" clear=3D"none"><br class=3D"yiv3038752637" clear=3D"none">I have two t=
ankless heaters, one in my garage - which has a small living area adjacent =
to it and two bedrooms and a bathroom above it - and one in my house. &nbsp=
;Both are propane fired, as I live in a fairly rural area and natural gas i=
sn=E2=80=99t available here. The garage unit is a combination DHW and hydro=
nic heating unit (I have heated floors in the shop and downstairs living ar=
ea) made by a company called Laars. &nbsp;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noref=
errer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.laars.com/" cla=
ss=3D"yiv3038752637">https://www.laars.com</a>. I have no complaints with t=
hat unit and love having heated floors in the garage. &nbsp;(I ran the line=
s before the concrete was poured.)<br class=3D"yiv3038752637" clear=3D"none=
"><br class=3D"yiv3038752637" clear=3D"none">My house is a very small (780 =
sq ft) ranch house and has a Rheem tankless unit (RTGH-900VLP-2) that was i=
nstalled when the house was completely rebuilt&nbsp;(as in, new house built=
 on the original foundation)&nbsp;three years ago. The shower is no more th=
an 15ft from the heater, yet it takes several minutes to get hot water to t=
he shower. &nbsp;It was instantaneous when we had a conventional tank unit,=
 but my community requires new construction to meet specific energy efficie=
ncy standards that required us to use a tankless unit. &nbsp;I complained a=
bout the heat when the unit was new and an inspection revealed a faulty mix=
ing valve, which was replaced under warranty. &nbsp;I was still unhappy and=
 Rheem told me how to bypass the preset maximum temperature of 120=C2=BA an=
d it is better with the unit set to 130=C2=BA or 140=C2=BA, but I have a ha=
rd time believing that should be necessary. &nbsp;As I said, it took a sepa=
rate small electric unit to be able to get fast heat to the kitchen and the=
re is maybe 40=E2=80=99 of insulated PEX pipe between the heater and the si=
nk. (The temp in the basement is generally around 60=C2=BA.)<br class=3D"yi=
v3038752637" clear=3D"none"><br class=3D"yiv3038752637" clear=3D"none">The =
Rheem unit was recommended by my plumber and is highly rated, so maybe my u=
nit is just a lemon. &nbsp;But, I spoke with a plumber before installing th=
e 7.5 gallon unit for the sink and he told me he installs a lot of small =
=E2=80=98point of use=E2=80=99 tanked units in house with tankless heaters,=
 so my complaint can=E2=80=99t be unique to my heater. &nbsp;Overall, I lik=
e the fact that my house is very energy efficient, but I really miss the da=
ys when I could hop in the shower immediately and not have to worry about w=
aiting for the water to warm up.&nbsp;<br class=3D"yiv3038752637" clear=3D"=
none"><br class=3D"yiv3038752637" clear=3D"none">Jim</div>
</div>
</font></div>
</div>

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[email-masked]

--===============0240819912372635568==--

---

From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 19:30:50 -0500

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	boundary="Apple-Mail=_EE37450A-3653-4BCE-9FCD-B2D9C0888E91"

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	charset=utf-8

Thanks, Dave.  That is an interesting way to put it.  I think I will =
time the heat and try contacting Rheem.  You never know.

> On Jan 28, 2022, at 8:13 AM, DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> Jim, your plumber may have made that recommendation based on =
reliability and not necessarily on performance. =20
>=20
> A coworker of mine installed a tankless heater because he has a wife =
and two daughters who would regularly empty the 30 gallon tank when =
showering.  He noted that the heater would delay heating water to the =
point that the front-loading washer would never draw water long enough =
to get it to kick in.  My speculation is that the manufacturer =
programmed in a delay to confirm a good, solid hot water demand in =
pursuit of their energy rating.
>=20
> 15 feet of 1/2 inch tubing will hold about .05 gallons of water.  Most =
shower heads deliver 1 GPM.  That means it should take about 3 seconds =
to purge the cold water out of the line.  OK, 6 seconds if you are =
drawing a mix of hot and cold.  Several minutes is probably the heater =
control.  Maybe the flow switch is not sensitive enough to detect the =
flow at that level.
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Whole house tankless heater experience. Was: =
tankless/instant water heater
>=20
> I held off answering Jimmie=E2=80=99s question below until the =
original topic seemed to have played out.  With that now apparently =
done, here is my experience with full house tankless heaters.
>=20
> I have two tankless heaters, one in my garage - which has a small =
living area adjacent to it and two bedrooms and a bathroom above it - =
and one in my house.  Both are propane fired, as I live in a fairly =
rural area and natural gas isn=E2=80=99t available here. The garage unit =
is a combination DHW and hydronic heating unit (I have heated floors in =
the shop and downstairs living area) made by a company called Laars.  =
https://www.laars.com <https://www.laars.com/>. I have no complaints =
with that unit and love having heated floors in the garage.  (I ran the =
lines before the concrete was poured.)
> Jim

--Apple-Mail=_EE37450A-3653-4BCE-9FCD-B2D9C0888E91
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Thanks, Dave. &nbsp;That is an interesting way to put it. =
&nbsp;I think I will time the heat and try contacting Rheem. &nbsp;You =
never know.<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan 28, 2022, at 8:13 AM, DAVID MASSEY =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 12pt; line-height: =
normal; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""> <font size=3D"3" class=3D"">Jim, your plumber may have =
made that recommendation based on reliability and not necessarily on =
performance.&nbsp; <br class=3D"">
</font></div>

<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>

<div class=3D""><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">A coworker of mine installed =
a tankless heater because he has a wife and two daughters who would =
regularly empty the 30 gallon tank when showering.&nbsp; He noted that =
the heater would delay heating water to the point that the front-loading =
washer would never draw water long enough to get it to kick in.&nbsp; My =
speculation is that the manufacturer programmed in a delay to confirm a =
good, solid hot water demand in pursuit of their energy =
rating.</font></div>

<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>

<div class=3D""><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">15 feet of 1/2 inch tubing =
will hold about .05 gallons of water.&nbsp; Most shower heads deliver 1 =
GPM.&nbsp; That means it should take about 3 seconds to purge the cold =
water out of the line.&nbsp; OK, 6 seconds if you are drawing a mix of =
hot and cold.&nbsp; Several minutes is probably the heater =
control.&nbsp; Maybe the flow switch is not sensitive enough to detect =
the flow at that level.</font><br class=3D"">
</div>

<div class=3D""> <br class=3D"">
</div>

<div style=3D"clear:both" class=3D""><font size=3D"4" class=3D"">Dave =
</font><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>

<div class=3D""> <br class=3D"">
</div>

<div class=3D""> <br class=3D"">
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica; font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D""><font size=3D"2" class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<br =
class=3D"">
From: Jim Stone &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
To: Shop Talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
Sent: Thu, Jan 27, 2022 8:30 pm<br class=3D"">
Subject: [Shop-talk] Whole house tankless heater experience. Was: =
tankless/instant water heater<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">

<div id=3D"yiv3038752637" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">I held off answering Jimmie=E2=80=99s question below =
until the original topic seemed to have played out. &nbsp;With that now =
apparently done, here is my experience with full house tankless =
heaters.<br class=3D"yiv3038752637" clear=3D"none"><br =
class=3D"yiv3038752637" clear=3D"none">I have two tankless heaters, one =
in my garage - which has a small living area adjacent to it and two =
bedrooms and a bathroom above it - and one in my house. &nbsp;Both are =
propane fired, as I live in a fairly rural area and natural gas isn=E2=80=99=
t available here. The garage unit is a combination DHW and hydronic =
heating unit (I have heated floors in the shop and downstairs living =
area) made by a company called Laars. &nbsp;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener =
noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"https://www.laars.com/" =
class=3D"yiv3038752637">https://www.laars.com</a>. I have no complaints =
with that unit and love having heated floors in the garage. &nbsp;(I ran =
the lines before the concrete was poured.)<br class=3D"yiv3038752637" =
clear=3D"none"><br class=3D"yiv3038752637" clear=3D"none">My house is a =
very small (780 sq ft) ranch house and has a Rheem tankless unit =
(RTGH-900VLP-2) that was installed when the house was completely =
rebuilt&nbsp;(as in, new house built on the original =
foundation)&nbsp;three years ago. The shower is no more than 15ft from =
the heater, yet it takes several minutes to get hot water to the shower. =
&nbsp;It was instantaneous when we had a conventional tank unit, but my =
community requires new construction to meet specific energy efficiency =
standards that required us to use a tankless unit. &nbsp;I complained =
about the heat when the unit was new and an inspection revealed a faulty =
mixing valve, which was replaced under warranty. &nbsp;I was still =
unhappy and Rheem told me how to bypass the preset maximum temperature =
of 120=C2=BA and it is better with the unit set to 130=C2=BA or 140=C2=BA,=
 but I have a hard time believing that should be necessary. &nbsp;As I =
said, it took a separate small electric unit to be able to get fast heat =
to the kitchen and there is maybe 40=E2=80=99 of insulated PEX pipe =
between the heater and the sink. (The temp in the basement is generally =
around 60=C2=BA.)<br class=3D"yiv3038752637" clear=3D"none"><br =
class=3D"yiv3038752637" clear=3D"none">The Rheem unit was recommended by =
my plumber and is highly rated, so maybe my unit is just a lemon. =
&nbsp;But, I spoke with a plumber before installing the 7.5 gallon unit =
for the sink and he told me he installs a lot of small =E2=80=98point of =
use=E2=80=99 tanked units in house with tankless heaters, so my =
complaint can=E2=80=99t be unique to my heater. &nbsp;Overall, I like =
the fact that my house is very energy efficient, but I really miss the =
days when I could hop in the shower immediately and not have to worry =
about waiting for the water to warm up.&nbsp;<br class=3D"yiv3038752637" =
clear=3D"none"><br class=3D"yiv3038752637" clear=3D"none">Jim</div>
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[email-masked]

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From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 18:41:26 -0600

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 6:31 PM Jim Stone <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Dave.  That is an interesting way to put it.  I think I will time the heat and try contacting Rheem.  You never know.
>
> Jim, your plumber may have made that recommendation based on reliability and not necessarily on performance.
>
> A coworker of mine installed a tankless heater because he has a wife and two daughters who would regularly empty the 30 gallon tank when showering.  He noted that the heater would delay heating water to the point that the front-loading washer would never draw water long enough to get it to kick in.  My speculation is that the manufacturer programmed in a delay to confirm a good, solid hot water demand in pursuit of their energy rating.

Tankless water heaters have a minimum flow, not out of efficiency
concerns, but out of not cooking the heat exchanger.  They modulate
their output, but even at lowest fire, if there is insufficient flow,
they can boil the water in the exchanger, which tends to result in
sudden, dramatic failure, and boiling water being sprayed about.
People seem to think this is undesirable, so if the flow switch
doesn't detect enough flow, it won't allow the burner to fire.  And,
yes, lots of people complain about that when they try to run a device
with intermittent demand, like a dishwasher.

I agree that your unit shouldn't be working the way it appears to be,
and there's either something wrong with your unit (and your plumber,
for not wanting to fix the problem), the design of that model is crap,
or it's not suitable for the application (in which case, shame on the
plumber for selling it to you.)
-- 
David Scheidt
[email-masked]
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]