Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical question

From: John Mitchell <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:46:05 -0500

My electric stove has always been wired direct from the cable.  I was 
told that code now requires an outlet and a pigtail on the range.  The 
romex cable has the 2 hot leads, a neutral and a bare ground wire.  I 
bought a surface mount 50 amp 3 prong outlet, but there is no place for 
a ground wire to connect.  For now, I bent the ground back on itself and 
used the clamp to at least ground to the metal part of the outlet.  Is 
this ok or should I have just clipped it off?  Thanks for any 
expertise.  John Mitchell

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From: Pat Horne <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:01:55 -0600

You should have 4 pins on the connector & a 4 conductor pigtail. 

The ground wire is for safety. If you develop a short or leakage current in the stove, the case of the stove & any metal pot on the stove could have 120v on it without the ground. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity

On Nov 28, 2021, at 7:46 AM, John Mitchell <[email-masked]> wrote:

My electric stove has always been wired direct from the cable.  I was told that code now requires an outlet and a pigtail on the range.  The romex cable has the 2 hot leads, a neutral and a bare ground wire.  I bought a surface mount 50 amp 3 prong outlet, but there is no place for a ground wire to connect.  For now, I bent the ground back on itself and used the clamp to at least ground to the metal part of the outlet.  Is this ok or should I have just clipped it off?  Thanks for any expertise.  John Mitchell

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From: Thomas Coradeschi <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 09:36:50 -0500

So, the code requirements, generally speaking, are that you be compliant with the version of the NEC a the time of the installation. You don’t need to change how your house, appliances, etc are wired as the NEC changes. If you’re installing a new stove, then that would be a different story.

That notwithstanding, you need to get yourself a 4 prong receptacle and connector to correctly wire your 240V stove. Neutral and ground require their own connections. Or, you can revert back to what you had (again, assuming that this is not a new installation).

You would also maybe want to confirm that this NEC change (latest version is the 2020 edition) is for real. https://www.nfpa.org/ will give you free access to NFPA 70, once you register for an account.

—
Tom Coradeschi
[email-masked]

> On 28 Nov 2021, at 8:46 AM, John Mitchell <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
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From: Mark Andy <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 09:53:42 -0500

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Howdy,

Guessing that you have a NEMA 10-50 outlet?  I'm not sure code allows those
any more but ??  You do wire them with the ground not connected.  I'd have
said that modern code would require a 4 prong 14-50 for 220vac connections
where the device also wants 110vac.

My recollection, which may well be wrong, is that the only modern 3 prong
220vac outlets (6-50) are supposed to be wired with the two hots and the
ground... Neutral not connected.  And that those connections are only used
when you have a device that uses only 220vac, not 220vac along with 110vac.

I think it's a lot more common these days for any 220vac connection to use
4 prong outlets.

Mark

On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 8:46 AM John Mitchell <[email-masked]> wrote:

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Howdy,<br><br>Guessing that you have a NEMA 10-50 outlet?=
=C2=A0 I&#39;m not sure code allows those any more but ??=C2=A0 You do wire=
 them with the ground not connected.=C2=A0 I&#39;d have said that modern co=
de would require=C2=A0a 4 prong 14-50 for 220vac connections where the devi=
ce also wants 110vac.<div><br>My recollection, which may well be wrong, is =
that the only modern 3 prong 220vac outlets (6-50) are supposed to be wired=
 with the two hots and the ground... Neutral not connected.=C2=A0 And that =
those connections are only used when you have a device that uses only 220va=
c, not 220vac along with 110vac.<br><br>I think it&#39;s a lot more common =
these days for any 220vac connection=C2=A0to use 4 prong outlets.<br><br>Ma=
rk</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai=
l_attr">On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 8:46 AM John Mitchell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">My electric stove has always been wired di=
rect from the cable.=C2=A0 I was <br>
told that code now requires an outlet and a pigtail on the range.=C2=A0 The=
 <br>
romex cable has the 2 hot leads, a neutral and a bare ground wire.=C2=A0 I =
<br>
bought a surface mount 50 amp 3 prong outlet, but there is no place for <br=
a ground wire to connect.=C2=A0 For now, I bent the ground back on itself a=
nd <br>
used the clamp to at least ground to the metal part of the outlet.=C2=A0 Is=
 <br>
this ok or should I have just clipped it off?=C2=A0 Thanks for any <br>
expertise.=C2=A0 John Mitchell<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
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et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
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eam.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><br>
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</blockquote></div>

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From: John Mitchell <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:25:02 -0500

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 charset=UTF-8

That's what I will change it to=2E Thanks=2E

=E2=81=A3Get BlueMail for And=
roid =E2=80=8B

On Nov 28, 2021, 9:54 AM, at 9:54 AM, Mark Andy <marka@mara=
cing=2Ecom> wrote:
>Howdy,
>
>Guessing that you have a NEMA 10-50 outlet?  =
I'm not sure code allows
>those
>any more but ??  You do wire them with the=
 ground not connected=2E  I'd
>have
>said that modern code would require a =
4 prong 14-50 for 220vac
>connections
>where the device also wants 110vac=
=2E
>
>My recollection, which may well be wrong, is that the only modern 3
=
>prong
>220vac outlets (6-50) are supposed to be wired with the two hots an=
d
>the
>ground=2E=2E=2E Neutral not connected=2E  And that those connection=
s are only
>used
>when you have a device that uses only 220vac, not 220vac =
along with
>110vac=2E
>
>I think it's a lot more common these days for any =
220vac connection to
>use
>4 prong outlets=2E
>On Sun, Nov 28, 20=
21 at 8:46 AM John Mitchell <jmitch@snet=2Enet> wrote:
>> My electric sto=
ve has always been wired direct from the cable=2E  I was
>> told that code =
now requires an outlet and a pigtail on the range=2E 
>The
>> romex cable h=
as the 2 hot leads, a neutral and a bare ground wire=2E  I
>> bought a surf=
ace mount 50 amp 3 prong outlet, but there is no place
>for
>> a ground wir=
e to connect=2E  For now, I bent the ground back on itself
>and
>> used the=
 clamp to at least ground to the metal part of the outlet=2E 
>Is
>> this o=
k or should I have just clipped it off?  Thanks for any
>> expertise=2E  Jo=
hn Mitchell
>> Sho=
p-talk@autox=2Eteam=2Enet
>> Donate: http://www=2Eteam=2Enet/donate=2Ehtml
=
>> Suggested annual donation  $12=2E96
>> Archive: http://www=2Eteam=2Enet/=
pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox=2Eteam=2Enet/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/=
Manage:
>> http://autox=2Eteam=2Enet/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka@maraci=
ng=2Ecom
>>
>>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------=
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p-talk@autox=2Eteam=2Enet
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>ht=
tp://autox=2Eteam=2Enet/mailman/options/shop-talk/jmitch@snet=2Enet

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body style=3D"zoom: 0%;"><div dir=3D"auto">That's what =
I will change it to=2E Thanks=2E<br><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><!-- tmjah=
_g_1299s -->Get <!-- tmjah_g_1299e --><a href=3D"https://bluemail=2Eme"><!-=
- tmjah_g_1299s -->BlueMail for Android<!-- tmjah_g_1299e --></a><!-- tmjah=
_g_1299s --> <!-- tmjah_g_1299e --></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote" >On No=
v 28, 2021, at 9:54 AM, Mark Andy &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marka@maracing=2Eco=
m" target=3D"_blank">marka@maracing=2Ecom</a>&gt; wrote:<blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=2E8ex; border-left: 1px sol=
id rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Howdy,<br><br>=
Guessing that you have a NEMA 10-50 outlet?&nbsp; I'm not sure code allows =
those any more but ??&nbsp; You do wire them with the ground not connected=
=2E&nbsp; I'd have said that modern code would require&nbsp;a 4 prong 14-50=
 for 220vac connections where the device also wants 110vac=2E<div><br>My re=
collection, which may well be wrong, is that the only modern 3 prong 220vac=
 outlets (6-50) are supposed to be wired with the two hots and the ground=
=2E=2E=2E Neutral not connected=2E&nbsp; And that those connections are onl=
y used when you have a device that uses only 220vac, not 220vac along with =
110vac=2E<br><br>I think it's a lot more common these days for any 220vac c=
onnection&nbsp;to use 4 prong outlets=2E<br><br>Mark</div></div><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 28, 2=
021 at 8:46 AM John Mitchell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmitch@snet=2Enet">jmitc=
h@snet=2Enet</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=2E8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex">My electric stove has always been wired direct from the cable=
=2E&nbsp; I was <br>
told that code now requires an outlet and a pigtail on=
 the range=2E&nbsp; The <br>
romex cable has the 2 hot leads, a neutral and=
 a bare ground wire=2E&nbsp; I <br>
bought a surface mount 50 amp 3 prong o=
utlet, but there is no place for <br>
a ground wire to connect=2E&nbsp; For=
 now, I bent the ground back on itself and <br>
used the clamp to at least =
ground to the metal part of the outlet=2E&nbsp; Is <br>
this ok or should I=
 have just clipped it off?&nbsp; Thanks for any <br>
expertise=2E&nbsp; Joh=
n Mitchell<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br=
<a href=3D"mailto:Shop-talk@autox=2Eteam=2Enet" target=3D"_blank">Shop-ta=
lk@autox=2Eteam=2Enet</a><br>
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From: Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:29:11 -0500

This is correct.  The four wires are needed for a device that uses
both 115V and 230V.  Otherwise, if there is an imbalance in current
draw between the two hot legs (because one of them is also supplying
current for the 115V circuit) the "return" will be on the ground wire
instead of the neutral causing current flow there.

And if you tie the neutral to ground anywhere except in the correct
spot in your panel, you risk energising every ground wire in your
house.  This would be what we call "a bad thing".

Appliances that only use 230V only need the two hot legs (and the
ground) since there is no return path except the load wires.

On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 9:54 AM Mark Andy <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> Howdy,
>
> Guessing that you have a NEMA 10-50 outlet?  I'm not sure code allows those any more but ??  You do wire them with the ground not connected.  I'd have said that modern code would require a 4 prong 14-50 for 220vac connections where the device also wants 110vac.
>
> My recollection, which may well be wrong, is that the only modern 3 prong 220vac outlets (6-50) are supposed to be wired with the two hots and the ground... Neutral not connected.  And that those connections are only used when you have a device that uses only 220vac, not 220vac along with 110vac.
>
> I think it's a lot more common these days for any 220vac connection to use 4 prong outlets.
>
> Mark
>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
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From: Jimmie Mayfield <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:05:18 -0500

Out of curiosity, is this also required for built-in devices like 
built-in cooktops and in-wall ovens? I'm certain my in-wall oven and 
cooktop are hard-wired to their own junction boxes so I'm wondering if 
I'll need to do the same if I were to ever replace one of them...

On 11/28/21 08:46, John Mitchell wrote:
> bought a surface mount 50 amp 3 prong outlet, but there is no place 
> for a ground wire to connect.  For now, I bent the ground back on 
> itself and used the clamp to at least ground to the metal part of the 
> outlet.  Is this ok or should I have just clipped it off?  Thanks for 
> any expertise.  John Mitchell
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>

[email-masked]