Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston

From: Brian and Wendy Warrick <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 21:55:35 +0000

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I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can't =
see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter di=
fferently.

Brian
Nampa, ID

________________________________
From: Shop-talk <[email-masked]> on behalf of Karl Vacek =
<[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
To: [email-masked]' <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston

Last time I sharpened my 21=94 walk-behind mower blade I thought of somethi=
ng that=92s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 2=
5 years..

On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter =
keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer =
side, nothing.

One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way wo=
uld be across.  It=92s been off many times and there=92s no way to tell how=
 it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.

Power stroke shouldn=92t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or th=
e other?

Thanks!
Karl

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I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can't =
see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter di=
fferently.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Brian</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Nampa, ID</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"appendonsend"></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
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<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co=
lor=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Shop-talk &lt;shop-ta=
[email-masked]&gt; on behalf of Karl Vacek &lt;stearman809@gmail=
.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> [email-masked]' &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston</fon=
t>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div lang=3D"EN-US">
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<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
Last time I sharpened my 21=94 walk-behind mower blade I thought of somethi=
ng that=92s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 2=
5 years..</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter =
keyed to the crankshaft.&nbsp; The mounting point is square, no pins, no lo=
nger side, nothing.</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way wo=
uld be across. &nbsp;It=92s been off many times and there=92s no way to tel=
l how it was mounted originally.&nbsp; The manual is silent on this.</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
Power stroke shouldn=92t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or th=
e other?</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
Thanks!<br>
Karl</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
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_______________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

--===============8612455206844507594==--

---

From: Pat Horne <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 16:56:13 -0500

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Can=E2=80=99t say for sure but I would expect the engine to be balanced with=
out blade installed so it =E2=80=9Cshouldn=E2=80=99t=E2=80=9D make a differe=
nce.=20

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne=20
We support Habitat for Humanity

On May 18, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Karl Vacek <[email-masked]> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thought of so=
mething that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of m=
ower for 25 years..
=20
On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter k=
eyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer si=
de, nothing.
=20
One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way wou=
ld be across.  It=E2=80=99s been off many times and there=E2=80=99s no way t=
o tell how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
=20
Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way o=
r the other?
=20
Thanks!
Karl
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archi=
ve

[email-masked]

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Can=E2=80=99t say for sure but I would expe=
ct the engine to be balanced without blade installed so it =E2=80=9Cshouldn=E2=
=80=99t=E2=80=9D make a difference.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Peace,</div><di=
v>Pat<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Pat Horne&nbsp;<div>We support Habitat for Hum=
anity</div><div><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On May 18, 2021, at 4:5=
3 PM, Karl Vacek &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div dir=3D=
"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; chars=
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thou=
ght of something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using the same b=
rand of mower for 25 years..<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on=
 any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.&nbsp; The mounting=
 point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">One way would be ali=
gned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across. &nbsp;=
It=E2=80=99s been off many times and there=E2=80=99s no way to tell how it w=
as mounted originally.&nbsp; The manual is silent on this.<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Power stroke s=
houldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal">Thanks!<br>Karl<o:p></o:p></p></div><span>_____________________________=
__________________</span><br><span></span><br><span>[email-masked]=
</span><br><span>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html</span><br><span>Sug=
gested annual donation &nbsp;$12.96</span><br><span>Archive: http://www.team=
.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive</span><br><span></spa=
n><br><span>Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-t=
alk/[email-masked]</span><br><span></span><br></div></div></body></ht=
ml>=

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[email-masked]

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From: Jim Franklin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 17:56:40 -0400

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I can't think of a reason it would matter. Also, I think if it did, =
they'd have keyed it.

jim

> On May 18, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Karl Vacek <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thought =
of something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using the same =
brand of mower for 25 years..
> =20
> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square =
adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, =
no longer side, nothing.
> =20
> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other =
way would be across.  It=E2=80=99s been off many times and there=E2=80=99s=
 no way to tell how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on =
this.
> =20
> Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue =
one way or the other?
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =
<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk =
<http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive =
<http://autox.team.net/archive>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked] =
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
can't think of a reason it would matter. Also, I think if it did, they'd =
have keyed it.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">jim<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On May 18, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Karl Vacek &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Last time =
I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thought of =
something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using the same =
brand of mower for 25 years..<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On a Snapper, the blade can actually go =
on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.&nbsp; The =
mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">One way =
would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would =
be across. &nbsp;It=E2=80=99s been off many times and there=E2=80=99s no =
way to tell how it was mounted originally.&nbsp; The manual is silent on =
this.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Power =
stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or =
the other?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks!<br class=3D"">Karl<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, =
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class=3D"">[email-masked]</a><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
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normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Donate:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
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[email-masked]

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---

From: Karl Vacek <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 17:49:23 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--===============4822315276746527637==

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--17981ab61761c0728bfd81b447
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They reason I thought of it is that aircraft propellers are supposed to be 
phased in a certain way.

My Stearman has a 7 cylinder radial engine and when it has the Macaulay 
hollow steel prop on it the prop goes in line with the master rod of the 
engine (vertical) when cylinder 1 (top) is at TDC, but a wood prop is 
installed 90 degrees from that, or horizontally when 1 is at TDC.

The wood prop and it's steel hub are maybe 30 pounds lighter than Macauley. 
 It's not lore, it's in the Type Certificate.  And people have put props on 
wrong and it's smoother once they remount then properly.

On May 18, 2021 4:56:44 PM Jim Franklin <[email-masked]> wrote:
> I can't think of a reason it would matter. Also, I think if it did, they'd 
> have keyed it.
>
> jim
>
>
>> Last time I sharpened my 21” walk-behind mower blade I thought of something 
>> that’s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..
>>
>> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter 
>> keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer 
>> side, nothing.
>>
>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way 
>> would be across.  It’s been off many times and there’s no way to tell how 
>> Power stroke shouldn’t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the 
>> other?
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Karl
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

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<div dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"auto">They reason I thought of it is that aircraft propellers a=
re supposed to be phased in a certain way.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto">My Stearman has a 7 cylinder radial engine and when it h=
as the Macaulay hollow steel prop on it the prop goes in line with the mast=
er rod of the engine (vertical) when cylinder 1 (top) is at TDC, but a wood=
 prop is installed 90 degrees from that, or horizontally when 1 is at TDC.<=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The wood prop and it's s=
teel hub are maybe 30 pounds lighter than Macauley.&nbsp; It's not lore, it=
's in the Type Certificate.&nbsp; And people have put props on wrong and it=
's smoother once they remount then properly.</div><div dir=3D'auto'><br></d=
iv>
<div id=3D"aqm-original" style=3D"color: black;">
<!-- body start -->
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"aqm-original-body"><div style=3D"color: black;=
">
<p style=3D"color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: sans-serif; margin:=
 8pt 0;">On May 18, 2021 4:56:44 PM Jim Franklin &lt;[email-masked]=
&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.75=
ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
I can't think of a reason it would matter. Also, I think if it did, they'd =
have keyed it.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">jim<br c=
lass=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div cla=
ss=3D"">On May 18, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Karl Vacek &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stear=
[email-masked]" class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSecti=
on1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: H=
elvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; f=
ont-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:=
 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit=
-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"=
">Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thought of=
 something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using the same brand =
of mower for 25 years..<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=
=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.000=
1pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On a Sn=
apper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed t=
o the crankshaft.&nbsp; The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer si=
de, nothing.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.000=
1pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p cl=
ass=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-siz=
e: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">One way would be ali=
gned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across. &nbsp=
;It=E2=80=99s been off many times and there=E2=80=99s no way to tell how it=
 was mounted originally.&nbsp; The manual is silent on this.<o:p class=3D""=
></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but mayb=
e some dynamic issue one way or the other?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"marg=
in: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" c=
lass=3D"">Thanks!<br class=3D"">Karl<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><span=
 style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14p=
x; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; lett=
er-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: no=
ne; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;=
 text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"=
">_______________________________________________</span><br style=3D"caret-=
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: n=
ormal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: norm=
al; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:=
 normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration=
: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: He=
lvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; fo=
nt-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-=
text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailt=
o:[email-masked]" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decorat=
ion: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal=
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rphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; wh=
ite-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjus=
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dth: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rg=
b(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; fo=
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align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; f=
loat: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Donate:<span class=3D"A=
pple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a href=3D"http://www.team.net/do=
nate.html" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; f=
ont-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ca=
ps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; tex=
t-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal=
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text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px=
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r-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: non=
e; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
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r style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14=
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--17981ab61761c0728bfd81b447--

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[email-masked]

--===============4822315276746527637==--

---

From: Jim Franklin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 18:59:05 -0400

--===============1285341085476298493==
	boundary="Apple-Mail=_D3C2FF1B-5DB1-475B-A3A8-AF31554BDD72"

--Apple-Mail=_D3C2FF1B-5DB1-475B-A3A8-AF31554BDD72
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These are both two blade props? I would love to know why it makes a =
difference. Especially that the two props get mounted differently.

jim

> On May 18, 2021, at 6:49 PM, Karl Vacek <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> They reason I thought of it is that aircraft propellers are supposed =
to be phased in a certain way.
>=20
> My Stearman has a 7 cylinder radial engine and when it has the =
Macaulay hollow steel prop on it the prop goes in line with the master =
rod of the engine (vertical) when cylinder 1 (top) is at TDC, but a wood =
prop is installed 90 degrees from that, or horizontally when 1 is at =
TDC.
>=20
> The wood prop and it's steel hub are maybe 30 pounds lighter than =
Macauley.  It's not lore, it's in the Type Certificate.  And people have =
put props on wrong and it's smoother once they remount then properly.
>=20
> On May 18, 2021 4:56:44 PM Jim Franklin <[email-masked]> =
they'd have keyed it.
>>=20
>> jim
>>=20
>>> On May 18, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Karl Vacek <[email-masked] =
>>>=20
>>> Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I =
thought of something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using =
the same brand of mower for 25 years..
one way or the other?
http://autox.team.net/archive

--Apple-Mail=_D3C2FF1B-5DB1-475B-A3A8-AF31554BDD72
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">These=
 are both two blade props? I would love to know why it makes a =
difference. Especially that the two props get mounted differently.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">jim<br class=3D""><div><br=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On May =
18, 2021, at 6:49 PM, Karl Vacek &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">

<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">They reason I thought of it is that =
aircraft propellers are supposed to be phased in a certain =
way.</div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">My Stearman has a 7 cylinder radial engine and =
when it has the Macaulay hollow steel prop on it the prop goes in line =
with the master rod of the engine (vertical) when cylinder 1 (top) is at =
TDC, but a wood prop is installed 90 degrees from that, or horizontally =
when 1 is at TDC.</div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">The wood prop and it's =
steel hub are maybe 30 pounds lighter than Macauley.&nbsp; It's not =
lore, it's in the Type Certificate.&nbsp; And people have put props on =
wrong and it's smoother once they remount then properly.</div><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>
<div id=3D"aqm-original" style=3D"" class=3D"">
<!-- body start -->
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"aqm-original-body"><div =
style=3D"" class=3D""><p style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
sans-serif; margin: 8pt 0px;" class=3D"">On May 18, 2021 4:56:44 PM Jim =
Franklin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
I can't think of a reason it would matter. Also, I think if it did, =
they'd have keyed it.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">jim<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On May 18, 2021, at 5:52 PM, =
Karl Vacek &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Last time =
I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thought of =
something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using the same =
brand of mower for 25 years..<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On a Snapper, the blade can actually go =
on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.&nbsp; The =
mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">One way =
would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would =
be across. &nbsp;It=E2=80=99s been off many times and there=E2=80=99s no =
way to tell how it was mounted originally.&nbsp; The manual is silent on =
this.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Power =
stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or =
the other?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks!<br class=3D"">Karl<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
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[email-masked]

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---

From: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 17:34:44 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit 
running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then 
finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in 
it that caused the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a timing 
loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade 
as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.

Bob

On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I 
> can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the 
> adapter differently.
>
> Brian
> Nampa, ID
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Shop-talk <[email-masked]> on behalf of Karl 
> Vacek <[email-masked]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
> *To:* [email-masked]' <[email-masked]>
> *Subject:* [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
>
> Last time I sharpened my 21” walk-behind mower blade I thought of 
> something that’s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of 
> mower for 25 years..
>
> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square 
> adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no 
> pins, no longer side, nothing.
>
> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other 
> way would be across.  It’s been off many times and there’s no way to 
> tell how it was mounted originally. The manual is silent on this.
>
> Power stroke shouldn’t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or 
> the other?
>
> Thanks!
> Karl
>
>

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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
      charset=windows-1252">
  </head>
  <body>
    Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit
    running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then
    finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack
    in it that caused the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a
    timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think
    of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.<br>
    <br>
    Bob<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy
      Warrick wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      <style type="text/css" style="display:none;">P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}</style>
      <div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
        font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a
        thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would
        have designed the adapter differently.</div>
      <div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
        font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        <br>
      </div>
      <div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
        font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        Brian</div>
      <div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
        font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        Nampa, ID</div>
      <div>
        <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
          font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
          <br>
        </div>
        <hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
        <div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
            face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
            Shop-talk <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a> on behalf
            of Karl Vacek <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
            <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM<br>
            <b>To:</b> '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>'
            <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
            <b>Subject:</b> [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative
            to piston</font>
          <div> </div>
        </div>
        <div lang="EN-US">
          <div class="x_WordSection1">
            <p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
              font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
              Last time I sharpened my 21” walk-behind mower blade I
              thought of something that’s never occurred to me, after
              using the same brand of mower for 25 years..</p>
            <p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
              font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
               </p>
            <p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
              font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
              On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto
              the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting
              point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.</p>
            <p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
              font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
               </p>
            <p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
              font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
              One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and
              the other way would be across.  It’s been off many times
              and there’s no way to tell how it was mounted originally. 
              The manual is silent on this.</p>
            <p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
              font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
               </p>
            <p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
              font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
              Power stroke shouldn’t matter, but maybe some dynamic
              issue one way or the other?</p>
            <p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
              font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
               </p>
            <p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
              font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
              Thanks!<br>
              Karl</p>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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From: Thomas Coradeschi <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 21:44:44 -0400

As others have noted, I can’t imagine any reason why it would make a difference. Multiple blade mowers require you to pay attention to that, for obvious reasons. My old Troy Bilt had keyed hubs and a cogged belt driving them, so that was easy (as long as you didn’t dork up replacing the cogged belt). My current Exmark requires you to actually think about the blade orientations when you install them:-)

—
Tom Coradeschi
[email-masked]

> On 18 May 2021, at 5:52 PM, Karl Vacek <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Last time I sharpened my 21” walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that’s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..
>  
> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.
>  
> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.  It’s been off many times and there’s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
>  
> Power stroke shouldn’t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?
>  
> Thanks!
> Karl
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

[email-masked]

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

---

From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 20:58:42 -0500

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--0000000000002fdb0a05c2a52bee
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Depends on the mower.  Most newer commercial mowers don't key the blade to
the shaft at all.  Instead they use friction washers to keep them
spinning.  That way if you hit something the washers can slip and absorb
the impact instead of damaging something.  This approach does require
sturdier spindle bearings to deal with the increased vibration when the
blades are out of time.  But they quickly slip the betts re-sync
themselves.

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 8:45 PM Thomas Coradeschi <[email-masked]> wrote=
:

> As others have noted, I can=E2=80=99t imagine any reason why it would mak=
e a
> difference. Multiple blade mowers require you to pay attention to that, f=
or
> obvious reasons. My old Troy Bilt had keyed hubs and a cogged belt drivin=
g
> them, so that was easy (as long as you didn=E2=80=99t dork up replacing t=
he cogged
> belt). My current Exmark requires you to actually think about the blade
> orientations when you install them:-)
>
> =E2=80=94
> Tom Coradeschi
> [email-masked]
>
>
of
> something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using the same brand=
 of mower
> for 25 years..
no
> longer side, nothing.
> >
> > One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other wa=
y
> would be across.  It=E2=80=99s been off many times and there=E2=80=99s no=
 way to tell how
> > Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one=
 way or
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>

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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D Never offend people with style when you   =3D
=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =3D
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Depends on the mower.=C2=A0 Most newer commercial mowers d=
on&#39;t key the blade to the shaft at all.=C2=A0 Instead they use friction=
 washers to keep them spinning.=C2=A0 That way if you hit something the was=
hers can slip and absorb the impact instead of damaging something.=C2=A0 Th=
is approach does require sturdier spindle bearings to deal with the increas=
ed vibration when the blades are out of time.=C2=A0 But they quickly slip t=
he betts re-sync themselves.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 8:45 PM=
 Thomas Coradeschi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
">As others have noted, I can=E2=80=99t imagine any reason why it would mak=
e a difference. Multiple blade mowers require you to pay attention to that,=
 for obvious reasons. My old Troy Bilt had keyed hubs and a cogged belt dri=
ving them, so that was easy (as long as you didn=E2=80=99t dork up replacin=
g the cogged belt). My current Exmark requires you to actually think about =
the blade orientations when you install them:-)<br>
<br>
=E2=80=94<br>
Tom Coradeschi<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a=
><br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; On 18 May 2021, at 5:52 PM, Karl Vacek &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stearman8=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thought=
 of something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using the same bra=
nd of mower for 25 years..<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square ada=
pter keyed to the crankshaft.=C2=A0 The mounting point is square, no pins, =
no longer side, nothing.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other w=
ay would be across.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been off many times and there=E2=80=
=99s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.=C2=A0 The manual is sile=
nt on this.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue on=
e way or the other?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; Thanks!<br>
&gt; Karl<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-tal=
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<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net</a><br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" rel=3D"norefer=
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<br>
alk/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.te=
am.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_signature">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>=3D Never offend people with =
style when you=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D<br>=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Bro=
wn=C2=A0 =3D<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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--0000000000002fdb0a05c2a52bee--

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[email-masked]

--===============1546687650937343046==--

---

From: old dirtbeard <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 19:38:02 -0700

--===============4280943291115218221==

--000000000000e2e5a405c2a5b7e2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Bob,

I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.  I have a
Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do
maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with
the blade removed for sharpening.

For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the
blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance
field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the
motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is
possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the
engine, however.

You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire
without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard
to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the
crankshaft).

best,

doug

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit runnin=
g
> suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took
> it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused
> the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the
> spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a
> position sensor on it.
>
> Bob
>
> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can'=
t
> see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter
> differently.
>
> Brian
> Nampa, ID
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
> <[email-masked]> on behalf of Karl Vacek
> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
> <[email-masked]>
> Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thought of
 of mower
> for 25 years..
>
>
>
> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapte=
r
> keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longe=
r
 way to tell how
> Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one w=
ay or the
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>

--000000000000e2e5a405c2a5b7e2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Bob,<div><br></div><div>I believe=C2=A0you, of course, =
but I have never heard this=C2=A0before.=C2=A0 I have a Craftsman 21&quot; =
walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance=C2=A0this mo=
nth, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with the blade removed f=
or sharpening.</div><div><br></div><div>For this to make sense to me, there=
 would need to be some sensor on the blade, or they are using iron mass of =
the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil f=
iring. The aluminum sump of the motor protrudes=C2=A0through the steel deck=
 of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. There is quite an air gap betwe=
en the blade and the sump of the engine, however.</div><div><br></div><div>=
You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire wit=
hout the blade=C2=A0attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is ha=
rd to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the crank=
shaft).</div><div><br></div><div>best,</div><div><br></div><div>doug=C2=A0<=
/div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_a=
ttr">On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bspi=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div>
    Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit
    running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn&#39;t find anything, the=
n
    finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack
    in it that caused the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a
    timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think
    of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.<br>
    <br>
    Bob<br>
    <br>
    <div>On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy
      Warrick wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
     =20
      <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt=
;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
        I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a
        thought. I can&#39;t see why it would matter. If it did, they would
        have designed the adapter differently.</div>
      <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt=
;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
        <br>
      </div>
      <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt=
;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
        Brian</div>
      <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt=
;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
        Nampa, ID</div>
      <div>
        <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12=
pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
          <br>
        </div>
        <hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
        <div id=3D"gmail-m_-6852136761353026904divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><=
font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000=
"><b>From:</b>
            Shop-talk <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" t=
arget=3D"_blank">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a> on behalf
            of Karl Vacek <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
            <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM<br>
            <b>To:</b> &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" tar=
get=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&#39;
            <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">&=
lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
            <b>Subject:</b> [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative
            to piston</font>
          <div>=C2=A0</div>
        </div>
        <div lang=3D"EN-US">
          <div>
            <p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">
              Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade =
I
              thought of something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, aft=
er
              using the same brand of mower for 25 years..</p>
            <p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">
              =C2=A0</p>
            <p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">
              On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto
              the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.=C2=A0 The mountin=
g
              point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.</p>
            <p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">
              =C2=A0</p>
            <p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">
              One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and
              the other way would be across.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been off ma=
ny times
              and there=E2=80=99s no way to tell how it was mounted origina=
lly.=C2=A0
              The manual is silent on this.</p>
            <p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">
              =C2=A0</p>
            <p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">
              Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic
              issue one way or the other?</p>
            <p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">
              =C2=A0</p>
            <p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">
              Thanks!<br>
              Karl</p>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net</a><br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a> <a href=
=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://autox.team.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
alk/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.=
team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000e2e5a405c2a5b7e2--

--===============4280943291115218221==
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[email-masked]

--===============4280943291115218221==--

---

From: Thomas Coradeschi <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 22:50:47 -0400

Sounds like a valid experiment. Can you guys compare notes to see if your machines are more or less the same age?

Running without the blade out not to be an issue. The engine should have an air vane governor...

—
Tom Coradeschi
[email-masked]

> On 18 May 2021, at 10:38 PM, old dirtbeard <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.  I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with the blade removed for sharpening.
> 
> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engine, however.
> 
> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the crankshaft).
> 
> best,
> 
> doug 
> 
> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
> 
> Bob
> 
>> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter differently.
>> 
>> Brian
>> Nampa, ID
>> 
>> From: Shop-talk <[email-masked]> on behalf of Karl Vacek <[email-masked]>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
> 

[email-masked]

---

From: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 19:53:46 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--===============7665171424916461461==
 boundary="------------9C1CAF4B21984417E85139BC"
Content-Language: en-US

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--------------9C1CAF4B21984417E85139BC
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re: "... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance 
field to signal the position for coil firing ..."

That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was otherwise 
in good shape (how I managed to get it back together still amazes me). 
IIRC, it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop was 'Knife 
Stalkers.'

I'm looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors, the coil 
and 'points,' or whatever solid state switch they are using, are very 
simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger the 
spark. I use Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a 
cap on the distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. 
Surprising to me, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, 
apparently the lobes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the 
Hall Effect sensor.

bs

On 5/18/2021 7:38 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.  I have 
> a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do 
> maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire 
> with the blade removed for sharpening.
>
> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on 
> the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the 
> inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum 
> sump of the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I 
> suppose it is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade 
> and the sump of the engine, however.
>
> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will 
> fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as 
> it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached 
> to the crankshaft).
>
> best,
>
> doug
>
> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <[email-masked] 
>
>     running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything,
>     then finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had
>     a crack in it that caused the problem; supposedly the blade is
>     part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if
>     you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
>
>     Bob
>
>>     have designed the adapter differently.
>>
>>     Brian
>>     Nampa, ID
>>
>>     *To:* [email-masked]
>>     something that’s never occurred to me, after using the same brand
>>     of mower for 25 years..
>>
>>     On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the
>>     square adapter keyed to the crankshaft. The mounting point is
>>     square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.
>>
>>     One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the
>>     other way would be across.  It’s been off many times and there’s
>>     no way to tell how it was mounted originally.  The manual is
>>     silent on this.
>>
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>     <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk>
>     http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
>
>     Unsubscribe/Manage:
>     <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]>
>

--------------9C1CAF4B21984417E85139BC
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    re: "... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the
    inductance field to signal the position for coil firing ..."<br>
    <br>
    That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was
    otherwise in good shape (how I managed to get it back together still
    amazes me). IIRC, it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop
    was 'Knife Stalkers.'<br>
    <br>
    I'm looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors, the
    coil and 'points,' or whatever solid state switch they are using,
    are very simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to
    trigger the spark. I use Pertronix in several cars and, except for
    one they have a cap on the distributor cam with magnets to fire the
    electronic switch. Surprising to me, the one on my 4-cyl
    Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, apparently the lobes on the
    distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall Effect sensor.<br>
    <br>
    bs<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/18/2021 7:38 PM, old dirtbeard
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">Hi Bob,
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I believe you, of course, but I have never heard
          this before.  I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually
          sharpen the blade and do maintenance this month, so I think I
          will see if the engine will fire with the blade removed for
          sharpening.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some
          sensor on the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade
          as part of the inductance field to signal the position for
          coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor protrudes through
          the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is possible.
          There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of
          the engine, however.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>You have me very curious and I will let you know if the
          mower will fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will
          not let it run as it is hard to predict what would happen
          without that flywheel attached to the crankshaft).</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>best,</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>doug </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35
          PM Bob Spidell &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]"
            moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
          0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind
            that quit running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't
            find anything, then finally took it to a repair shop. They
            told me the blade had a crack in it that caused the problem;
            supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the
            spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a
            flywheel with a position sensor on it.<br>
            <br>
            Bob<br>
            <br>
            <div>On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
                I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it
                a thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did,
                they would have designed the adapter differently.</div>
              <div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
                <br>
              </div>
              <div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
                Brian</div>
              <div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
                Nampa, ID</div>
              <div>
                <div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
                  <br>
                </div>
                <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
                <div id="gmail-m_-6852136761353026904divRplyFwdMsg"
                  dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri,
                    sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Shop-talk <a
                      href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>
                    on behalf of Karl Vacek <a
                      href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> '<a
                      href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>'
                    <a href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion
                    relative to piston</font>
                  <div> </div>
                </div>
                <div lang="EN-US">
                  <div>
                    <p style="margin:0in 0in
                      0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
                      Last time I sharpened my 21” walk-behind mower
                      blade I thought of something that’s never occurred
                      to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25
                      years..</p>
                    <p style="margin:0in 0in
                      0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
                       </p>
                    <p style="margin:0in 0in
                      0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
                      On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way
                      onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft. 
                      The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer
                      side, nothing.</p>
                    <p style="margin:0in 0in
                      0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
                       </p>
                    <p style="margin:0in 0in
                      0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
                      One way would be aligned with the cylinder at
                      TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.  It’s
                      been off many times and there’s no way to tell how
                      it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent
                      on this.</p>
                    <p style="margin:0in 0in
                      0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
                       </p>
                    <p style="margin:0in 0in
                      0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
                      Power stroke shouldn’t matter, but maybe some
                      dynamic issue one way or the other?</p>
                    <p style="margin:0in 0in
                      0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
                       </p>
                    <p style="margin:0in 0in
                      0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
                      Thanks!<br>
                      Karl</p>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
          </div>
          _______________________________________________<br>
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            moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a><br>
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    <br>
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[email-masked]

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---

From: Thomas Coradeschi <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 23:03:26 -0400

You’re almost certainly looking at a magneto ignition system in all of those small engines… Bog simple indeed!

—
Tom Coradeschi
[email-masked]

> On 18 May 2021, at 10:53 PM, Bob Spidell <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> re: "... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing ..."
> 
> That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was otherwise in good shape (how I managed to get it back together still amazes me). IIRC, it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop was 'Knife Stalkers.'
> 
> I'm looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors, the coil and 'points,' or whatever solid state switch they are using, are very simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger the spark. I use Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a cap on the distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. Surprising to me, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, apparently the lobes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall Effect sensor.
> 
> bs
> 

[email-masked]

---

From: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 20:14:48 -0700

Magnetos still power the vast majority of small aircraft piston engines; 
they're a bit more complicated though. Mags in good nick will throw a 
really hot spark; they're always 'hot' and the only way to disable them 
is to ground the primary coil by a 'P lead.'

On 5/18/2021 8:03 PM, Thomas Coradeschi wrote:
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>

[email-masked]

---

From: Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 06:14:34 -0400

--===============6562428220474289134==

--000000000000937d6f05c2ac18f2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Not to mention that there are two magnetos.  You don't want your lawn mower
quitting in mid-air.

On Tue, May 18, 2021, 23:15 Bob Spidell <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > You=E2=80=99re almost certainly looking at a magneto ignition system in=
 all of
> those small engines=E2=80=A6 Bog simple indeed!
> >
> > =E2=80=94
> > Tom Coradeschi
> > [email-masked]
> >
> >
> inductance field to signal the position for coil firing ..."
> >>
> >> I'm looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors, the coi=
l
> simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger the spark.=
 I
> use Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a cap on the
> distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. Surprising to
> me, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, apparently the
> lobes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall Effect senso=
r.
> maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire wit=
h
> inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sum=
p
> of the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose =
it
> is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of
> the engine, however.
> >>>
> fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it =
is
> hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the
> crankshaft).
> >>>
> >>> best,
> >>>
> >>> doug
> >>>
> finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in i=
t
> that caused the problem;             supposedly the blade is part of a
> timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the
> blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
> >>>
> >>> Bob
> >>>
> >>>> Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thoug=
ht of
 of mower
no
> way would be across.  It=E2=80=99s been off many times and there=E2=80=99=
s no way to tell
> how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
> >>>>
one way
> or the other?
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
> >
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>

--000000000000937d6f05c2ac18f2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Not to mention that there are two magnetos.=C2=A0 You don=
&#39;t want your lawn mower quitting in mid-air.</div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, May 18, 2021, 23:15=
 Bob Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex">Magnetos still power the vast majority of small aircraf=
t piston engines; <br>
they&#39;re a bit more complicated though. Mags in good nick will throw a <=
br>
really hot spark; they&#39;re always &#39;hot&#39; and the only way to disa=
ble them <br>
is to ground the primary coil by a &#39;P lead.&#39;<br>
<br>
On 5/18/2021 8:03 PM, Thomas Coradeschi wrote:<br>
&gt; You=E2=80=99re almost certainly looking at a magneto ignition system i=
n all of those small engines=E2=80=A6 Bog simple indeed!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=94<br>
&gt; Tom Coradeschi<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 18 May 2021, at 10:53 PM, Bob Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bsp=
[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bspidell=
@comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; re: &quot;... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the=
 inductance field to signal the position for coil firing ...&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was other=
wise in good shape (how I managed to get it back together still amazes me).=
 IIRC, it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop was &#39;Knife St=
alkers.&#39;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors,=
 the coil and &#39;points,&#39; or whatever solid state switch they are usi=
ng, are very simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger=
 the spark. I use Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a=
 cap on the distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. Sur=
prising to me, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn&#39;t use the cap, a=
pparently the lobes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall =
Effect sensor.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; bs<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 5/18/2021 7:38 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Bob,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.=
=C2=A0 I have a Craftsman 21&quot; walk behind and I usually sharpen the bl=
ade and do maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will=
 fire with the blade removed for sharpening.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sens=
or on the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the in=
ductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of=
 the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it i=
s possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the=
 engine, however.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower =
will fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as =
it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to t=
he crankshaft).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; best,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; doug<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">b=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that =
quit running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn&#39;t find anything, th=
en finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in =
it that caused the problem;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of=
 makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor=
 on it.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Bob<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a =
thought. I can&#39;t see why it would matter. If it did, they would have de=
signed the adapter differently.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Brian<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Nampa, ID<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shop-talk-bounces@au=
tox.team.net" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">shop-talk-bou=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; on behalf of Karl Vacek &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">stear=
[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" rel=
=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&#=
39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer noref=
errer" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to p=
iston<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower bla=
de I thought of something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using =
the same brand of mower for 25 years..<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto th=
e square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.=C2=A0 The mounting point is squar=
e, no pins, no longer side, nothing.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and=
 the other way would be across.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been off many times and =
there=E2=80=99s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.=C2=A0 The man=
ual is silent on this.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dyna=
mic issue one way or the other?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks!<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Karl<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" rel=3D"nor=
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&gt;&gt;&gt; Suggested annual donation=C2=A0 $12.96<br>
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"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/=
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&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
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&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;<br>
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cast.net</a><br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote></div>

--000000000000937d6f05c2ac18f2--

--===============6562428220474289134==
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[email-masked]

--===============6562428220474289134==--

---

From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 05:23:29 -0500

--===============5301077647160729811==

--000000000000772ac505c2ac3894
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The whole propeller thing is really overstated.  It is just there to keep
the pilot cool.  If the propeller stops turning, the pilot often begins
sweating.

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 5:15 AM Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]> wrote=
:

> Not to mention that there are two magnetos.  You don't want your lawn
> mower quitting in mid-air.
>
>> > You=E2=80=99re almost certainly looking at a magneto ignition system i=
n all of
>> >> On 18 May 2021, at 10:53 PM, Bob Spidell <[email-masked]> wrote=
:
>> >> That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was otherwis=
e
>> coil and 'points,' or whatever solid state switch they are using, are ve=
ry
>> simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger the spark=
. I
>> distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. Surprising t=
o
>> me, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, apparently th=
e
>> lobes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall Effect sens=
or.
>> >>> I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.  I hav=
e
>> maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire wi=
th
>> inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum su=
mp
>> of the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose=
 it
>> fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it=
 is
>> finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in =
it
>> timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of th=
e
>> >>>> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. =
I
>> >>>> Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thou=
ght of
>> something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using the same bran=
d of mower
>> adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins,=
 no
>> longer side, nothing.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the othe=
r
>> way would be across.  It=E2=80=99s been off many times and there=E2=80=
=99s no way to tell
>> >>>> Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue=
 one way

--=20

--000000000000772ac505c2ac3894
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">The whole propeller thing is really overstated.=C2=A0 It i=
s just there to keep the pilot cool.=C2=A0 If the propeller stops turning, =
the pilot often begins sweating. <br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 5:15 AM Jeff S=
carbrough &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"auto">Not to mention that there are two magnetos.=C2=A0 You don&#3=
9;t want your lawn mower quitting in mid-air.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, May 18, 2021, 23:15 Bo=
b Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Magnetos still power the vast majority =
of small aircraft piston engines; <br>

--000000000000772ac505c2ac3894--

--===============5301077647160729811==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

[email-masked]

--===============5301077647160729811==--

---

From: DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 11:51:41 +0000 (UTC)

--===============0704799808047922961==
	boundary="----=_Part_1240719_482160760.1621425101782"

------=_Part_1240719_482160760.1621425101782
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 I dunno.=C2=A0 I always heard that prop pilots were always cool.=C2=A0 The=
y screw their way across the country whereas jet pilots just suck and blow.
=20
Dave=20

=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
To: Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 5:23 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston

The whole propeller thing is really overstated.=C2=A0 It is just there to k=
eep the pilot cool.=C2=A0 If the propeller stops turning, the pilot often b=
egins sweating.=20

Not to mention that there are two magnetos.=C2=A0 You don't want your lawn =
mower quitting in mid-air.
On Tue, May 18, 2021, 23:15 Bob Spidell <[email-masked]> wrote:

Magnetos still power the vast majority of small aircraft piston engines;=20
they're a bit more complicated though. Mags in good nick will throw a=20
really hot spark; they're always 'hot' and the only way to disable them=20
is to ground the primary coil by a 'P lead.'

On 5/18/2021 8:03 PM, Thomas Coradeschi wrote:
> You=E2=80=99re almost certainly looking at a magneto ignition system in a=
ll of those small engines=E2=80=A6 Bog simple indeed!
>> re: "... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance=
>>
>> That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was otherwise i=
n good shape (how I managed to get it back together still amazes me). IIRC,=
 it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop was 'Knife Stalkers.'
>>
>> I'm looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors, the coil =
and 'points,' or whatever solid state switch they are using, are very simpl=
istic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger the spark. I use =
Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a cap on the distri=
butor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. Surprising to me, the=
 one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, apparently the lobes on=
 the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall Effect sensor.
>>> I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.=C2=A0 I h=
ave a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do main=
tenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with the =
blade removed for sharpening.
>>>
>>> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the=
 blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance =
field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the moto=
r protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is possibl=
e. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engine, =
however.
>>>
>>> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire=
 without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is har=
d to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the cranks=
haft).
>>>
>>> best,
>>>
>>> doug
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <[email-masked]> wrot=
e:
>>> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit runn=
ing suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally to=
ok it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that cause=
d the problem;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0supposedly th=
e blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense =
if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
>>>> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I c=
an't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapt=
er differently.
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>> Nampa, ID
>>>>
>>>> From: Shop-talk <[email-masked]> on behalf of Karl V=
acek <[email-masked]>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>>>> Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thought=
 of something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using the same bra=
nd of mower for 25 years..
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>>>> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square ada=
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>>>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other w=
nt on this.
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>>>> Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue on=
e way or the other?
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>>> Suggested annual donation=C2=A0 $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/=
archive
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dir=
[email-masked]
>> Suggested annual donation=C2=A0 $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/a=
rchive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjco=
[email-masked]
> Suggested annual donation=C2=A0 $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/ar=
chive
>
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ive

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Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arch=
ive

@gmail.com

--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D Never offend people with style when you=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D
=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown=C2=A0 =3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_______________________________________________

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Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arch=
ive

[email-masked]

------=_Part_1240719_482160760.1621425101782
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div style=3D"color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"3">I dunno.&nbsp; I always heard that prop pilots were =
always cool.&nbsp; They screw their way across the country whereas jet pilo=
ts just suck and blow.</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"clear:both"><font size=3D"4">Dave </font><br>
<br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
 size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: John Innis &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: Jeff Scarbrough &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Cc: [email-masked] &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 5:23 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"yiv3426673979">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">The whole propeller thing is really overstated.&nbsp; It i=
s just there to keep the pilot cool.&nbsp; If the propeller stops turning, =
the pilot often begins sweating. <br clear=3D"none"></div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"yiv3426673979gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"yiv3426673979yqt9693682907" id=3D"yiv3426673979yqtfd02560">
<div class=3D"yiv3426673979gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, May 19, 2021 at =
5:15 AM Jeff Scarbrough &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=
=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"=
mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"=
none"></div>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv3426673979gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">
<div class=3D"yiv3426673979yqt9693682907" id=3D"yiv3426673979yqtfd85478">
<div>Not to mention that there are two magnetos.&nbsp; You don't want your =
lawn mower quitting in mid-air.</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"yiv3426673979gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"yiv3426673979gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, May 18, 2021, 23=
:15 Bob Spidell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" =
ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:bs=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><=
/div>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv3426673979gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">Magnetos st=
ill power the vast majority of small aircraft piston engines; <br clear=3D"=
none">
they're a bit more complicated though. Mags in good nick will throw a <br c=
lear=3D"none">
really hot spark; they're always 'hot' and the only way to disable them <br=
 clear=3D"none">
is to ground the primary coil by a 'P lead.'<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
On 5/18/2021 8:03 PM, Thomas Coradeschi wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; You=E2=80=99re almost certainly looking at a magneto ignition system i=
n all of those small engines=E2=80=A6 Bog simple indeed!<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; =E2=80=94<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Tom Coradeschi<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mail=
to:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">t=
[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; On 18 May 2021, at 10:53 PM, Bob Spidell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow no=
opener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" t=
arget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; re: "... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the indu=
ctance field to signal the position for coil firing ..."<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was other=
wise in good shape (how I managed to get it back together still amazes me).=
 IIRC, it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop was 'Knife Stalke=
rs.'<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; I'm looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors, the=
 coil and 'points,' or whatever solid state switch they are using, are very=
 simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger the spark. =
I use Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a cap on the =
distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. Surprising to m=
e, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, apparently the lo=
bes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall Effect sensor.<b=
r clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; bs<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; On 5/18/2021 7:38 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Bob,<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.&=
nbsp; I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade an=
d do maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire =
with the blade removed for sharpening.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sens=
or on the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the in=
ductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of=
 the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it i=
s possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the=
 engine, however.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower =
will fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as =
it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to t=
he crankshaft).<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; best,<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; doug<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofo=
llow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast=
.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">bspidell@comca=
st.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that =
quit running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then f=
inally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it t=
hat caused the problem;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;supp=
osedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of mak=
es sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on =
it.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; Bob<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:<br clear=
=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a =
thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have design=
ed the adapter differently.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Brian<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Nampa, ID<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Shop-talk &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer=
" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">shop-talk-boun=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; on behalf of Karl Vacek &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow n=
oopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">stearman809@gmail.=
com</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: '<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect=
" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mai=
lto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>' &lt;<a rel=3D"n=
ofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Sho=
[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to p=
iston<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower bla=
de I thought of something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using =
the same brand of mower for 25 years..<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto th=
e square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.&nbsp; The mounting point is squar=
e, no pins, no longer side, nothing.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and=
 the other way would be across.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s been off many times and =
there=E2=80=99s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.&nbsp; The man=
ual is silent on this.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dyna=
mic issue one way or the other?<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks!<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Karl<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br clear=3D"no=
ne">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
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=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:Shop-=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none">
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[email-masked]

--===============0704799808047922961==--

---

From: DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 12:07:35 +0000 (UTC)

--===============0961169033576184577==
	boundary="----=_Part_1251050_1669472372.1621426055738"

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 I would find it mildly surprising if they were triggering off of the blade=
 but any motor I've worked on is at least 20 years old.=C2=A0 On those moto=
rs (a couple Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto in the fl=
ywheel on the opposite end.=C2=A0 They will run without the blade attached.=
=C2=A0 Triggering off the blade means that motor is a special-purpose model=
 for that application.=C2=A0 The economies of scale favor a more generic de=
sign.
=20
Dave=20

=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: old dirtbeard <[email-masked]>
To: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston

Hi Bob,
I believe=C2=A0you, of course, but I have never heard this=C2=A0before.=C2=
=A0 I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and =
do maintenance=C2=A0this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fi=
re with the blade removed for sharpening.
For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the bla=
de, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance fiel=
d to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor pr=
otrudes=C2=A0through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is possib=
le. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engine,=
 however.
You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire wit=
hout the blade=C2=A0attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is ha=
rd to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the crank=
shaft).
best,
doug=C2=A0
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <[email-masked]> wrote:

  Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit runnin=
g suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took=
 it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused =
the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the s=
park. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a po=
sition sensor on it.
=20
 Bob
=20
 On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
 =20
  I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can'=
t see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter =
differently. =20
   Brian  Nampa, ID  =20
   From: Shop-talk <[email-masked]> on behalf of Karl Vac=
ek <[email-masked]>
 Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
 To: [email-masked]' <[email-masked]>
 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston =C2=A0    =
 Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thought of =
something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using the same brand o=
f mower for 25 years..  =C2=A0  On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on =
any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.=C2=A0 The mounting=
 point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.  =C2=A0  One way would =
be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.=
=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been off many times and there=E2=80=99s no way to tell =
how it was mounted originally.=C2=A0 The manual is silent on this.  =C2=A0 =
 Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one wa=
y or the other?  =C2=A0  Thanks!
 Karl   =20
=20
=20
 _______________________________________________

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

------=_Part_1251050_1669472372.1621426055738
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div style=3D"color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"3">I would find it mildly surprising if they were trigg=
ering off of the blade but any motor I've worked on is at least 20 years ol=
d.&nbsp; On those motors (a couple Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had=
 the magneto in the flywheel on the opposite end.&nbsp; They will run witho=
ut the blade attached.&nbsp; Triggering off the blade means that motor is a=
 special-purpose model for that application.&nbsp; The economies of scale f=
avor a more generic design.</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
 size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: old dirtbeard &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: Bob Spidell &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Cc: [email-masked]<br>
Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"yiv5420248293">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Bob,
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>I believe&nbsp;you, of course, but I have never heard this&nbsp;before=
.&nbsp; I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade =
and do maintenance&nbsp;this month, so I think I will see if the engine wil=
l fire with the blade removed for sharpening.</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on th=
e blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance=
 field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the mot=
or protrudes&nbsp;through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is p=
ossible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the en=
gine, however.</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fir=
e without the blade&nbsp;attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it =
is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the =
crankshaft).</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>best,</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>doug&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"yiv5420248293gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"yiv5420248293yqt9341191006" id=3D"yiv5420248293yqt66682">
<div class=3D"yiv5420248293gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, May 18, 2021 at =
5:35 PM Bob Spidell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"re=
ct" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailt=
o:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"non=
e"></div>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv5420248293gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">
 =20
   =20
 =20
 =20
<div>
    Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit
    running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then
    finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack
    in it that caused the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a
    timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think
    of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.<br clear=3D"no=
ne">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    Bob<br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
   =20
<div>On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy
      Warrick wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
    </div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);">

     =20
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);">
        <br clear=3D"none">
      </div>

     =20
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);">
        Brian</div>

     =20
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);">
        Nampa, ID</div>

     =20
<div>
       =20
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);">
          <br clear=3D"none">
        </div>

        <hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%;">
       =20
<div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yiv5420248293gmail-m_-6852136761353026904divRplyFwdM=
sg"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt;" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#=
000000"><b>From:</b>
            Shop-talk <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect=
" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" hre=
f=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]=
eam.net&gt;</a> on behalf
            of Karl Vacek <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"=
rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ma=
ilto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br clear=3D"n=
one">
            <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM<br clear=3D"none">
            <b>To:</b> '<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"re=
ct" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"m=
ailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>'
            <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:Shop-=
[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br clear=3D"none"=

        </div>

       =20
<div lang=3D"EN-US">
         =20
<div>
           =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;">
              Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade =
I
              thought of something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, aft=
er
              using the same brand of mower for 25 years..</div>

           =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;">
              &nbsp;</div>

           =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;">
              On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto
              the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.&nbsp; The mountin=
g
              point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.</div>

           =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;">
              &nbsp;</div>

           =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;">
              One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and
              the other way would be across.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s been off ma=
ny times
              and there=E2=80=99s no way to tell how it was mounted origina=
lly.&nbsp;
              The manual is silent on this.</div>

           =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;">
              &nbsp;</div>

           =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;">
              Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic
              issue one way or the other?</div>

           =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;">
              &nbsp;</div>

           =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;">
              Thanks!<br clear=3D"none">
              Karl</div>

          </div>

        </div>

      </div>

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    </blockquote>
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------=_Part_1251050_1669472372.1621426055738--

--===============0961169033576184577==
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[email-masked]

--===============0961169033576184577==--

---

From: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 05:32:12 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--===============3545978255381640028==
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--------------C4A897ABEF124292D71DD26C
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All I know is what the 'Knife Stalkers'--they sounded like 
Russians--told me. I don't have a scientific explanation, only that I 
tore the engine down and found nothing wrong. I do know that small, 
basically disposable appliances are built as simply and cheaply as 
possible (you can rebuild a Stihl MS170 for about $50). The blade wasn't 
broken--I would have spotted that--but a crack could disrupt a magnetic 
field somehow. Like I mentioned, the Pertronix in my Healey 100 
apparently fires off the cam lobes, with no magnet required to trigger 
(what I suspect) is a Hall Effect pickup.

On 5/19/2021 5:07 AM, DAVID MASSEY wrote:
> I would find it mildly surprising if they were triggering off of the 
> blade but any motor I've worked on is at least 20 years old.  On those 
> motors (a couple Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto 
> in the flywheel on the opposite end.  They will run without the blade 
> attached.  Triggering off the blade means that motor is a 
> special-purpose model for that application.  The economies of scale 
> favor a more generic design.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk>http://autox.team.net/archive 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked] 
> <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]>
>

--------------C4A897ABEF124292D71DD26C
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    All I know is what the 'Knife Stalkers'--they sounded like
    Russians--told me. I don't have a scientific explanation, only that
    I tore the engine down and found nothing wrong. I do know that
    small, basically disposable appliances are built as simply and
    cheaply as possible (you can rebuild a Stihl MS170 for about $50).
    The blade wasn't broken--I would have spotted that--but a crack
    could disrupt a magnetic field somehow. Like I mentioned, the
    Pertronix in my Healey 100 apparently fires off the cam lobes, with
    no magnet required to trigger (what I suspect) is a Hall Effect
    pickup.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/19/2021 5:07 AM, DAVID MASSEY
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div style="color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
        <div> <font size="3">I would find it mildly surprising if they
            were triggering off of the blade but any motor I've worked
            on is at least 20 years old.  On those motors (a couple
            Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto in the
            flywheel on the opposite end.  They will run without the
            blade attached.  Triggering off the blade means that motor
            is a special-purpose model for that application.  The
            economies of scale favor a more generic design.</font><br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div style="clear:both"><font size="4">Dave </font><br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font
            size="2">-----Original Message-----<br>
            From: old dirtbeard <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
            To: Bob Spidell <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
            Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br>
            Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm<br>
            Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to
            piston<br>
            <br>
            <div id="yiv5420248293">
              <div>
                <div dir="ltr">Hi Bob,
                  <div><br clear="none">
                  </div>
                  <div>I believe you, of course, but I have never heard
                    this before.  I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and
                    I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance this
                    month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire
                    with the blade removed for sharpening.</div>
                  <div><br clear="none">
                  </div>
                  <div>For this to make sense to me, there would need to
                    be some sensor on the blade, or they are using iron
                    mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to
                    signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum
                    sump of the motor protrudes through the steel deck
                    of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. There is
                    quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of
                    the engine, however.</div>
                  <div><br clear="none">
                  </div>
                  <div>You have me very curious and I will let you know
                    if the mower will fire without the blade attached
                    (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard to
                    predict what would happen without that flywheel
                    attached to the crankshaft).</div>
                  <div><br clear="none">
                  </div>
                  <div>best,</div>
                  <div><br clear="none">
                  </div>
                  <div>doug </div>
                </div>
                <br clear="none">
                <div class="yiv5420248293gmail_quote">
                  <div class="yiv5420248293yqt9341191006"
                    id="yiv5420248293yqt66682">
                    <div class="yiv5420248293gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On
                      Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell &lt;<a
                        rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect"
                        ymailto="mailto:[email-masked]"
                        target="_blank"
                        href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;
                      wrote:<br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class="yiv5420248293gmail_quote"
                      style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px
                      solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">
                      <div> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman
                        walk-behind that quit running suddenly. I tore
                        the engine down, didn't find anything, then
                        finally took it to a repair shop. They told me
                        the blade had a crack in it that caused the
                        problem; supposedly the blade is part of a
                        timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes
                        sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel
                        with a position sensor on it.<br clear="none">
                        <br clear="none">
                        Bob<br clear="none">
                        <br clear="none">
                        <div>On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy
                          Warrick wrote:<br clear="none">
                        </div>
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div style="font-family:Calibri, Helvetica,
                            sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
                            I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have
                            never gave it a thought. I can't see why it
                            would matter. If it did, they would have
                            designed the adapter differently.</div>
                          <div style="font-family:Calibri, Helvetica,
                            sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
                            <br clear="none">
                          </div>
                          <div style="font-family:Calibri, Helvetica,
                            sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
                            Brian</div>
                          <div style="font-family:Calibri, Helvetica,
                            sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
                            Nampa, ID</div>
                          <div>
                            <div style="font-family:Calibri, Helvetica,
sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);"> <br clear="none">
                            </div>
                            <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%;">
                            <div dir="ltr"
                              id="yiv5420248293gmail-m_-6852136761353026904divRplyFwdMsg"><font
                                style="font-size:11pt;" face="Calibri,
                                sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
                                Shop-talk <a rel="nofollow noopener
                                  noreferrer" shape="rect"
                                  ymailto="mailto:[email-masked]"
                                  target="_blank"
                                  href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                                  moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>
                                on behalf of Karl Vacek <a
                                  rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"
                                  shape="rect"
                                  ymailto="mailto:[email-masked]"
                                  target="_blank"
                                  href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                                  moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br
                                  clear="none">
                                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52
                                PM<br clear="none">
                                <b>To:</b> '<a rel="nofollow noopener
                                  noreferrer" shape="rect"
                                  ymailto="mailto:[email-masked]"
                                  target="_blank"
                                  href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                                  moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>'
                                <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"
                                  shape="rect"
                                  ymailto="mailto:[email-masked]"
                                  target="_blank"
                                  href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                                  moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br
                                  clear="none">
                                <b>Subject:</b> [Shop-talk] Mower blade
                                orientaaion relative to piston</font>
                              <div> </div>
                            </div>
                            <div lang="EN-US">
                              <div>
                                <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                                  sans-serif;"> Last time I sharpened my
                                  21” walk-behind mower blade I thought
                                  of something that’s never occurred to
                                  me, after using the same brand of
                                  mower for 25 years..</div>
                                <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                                  sans-serif;">  </div>
                                <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                                  sans-serif;"> On a Snapper, the blade
                                  can actually go on any way onto the
                                  square adapter keyed to the
                                  crankshaft.  The mounting point is
                                  square, no pins, no longer side,
                                  nothing.</div>
                                <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                                  sans-serif;">  </div>
                                <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                                  sans-serif;"> One way would be aligned
                                  with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the
                                  other way would be across.  It’s been
                                  off many times and there’s no way to
                                  tell how it was mounted originally. 
                                  The manual is silent on this.</div>
                                <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                                  sans-serif;">  </div>
                                <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                                  sans-serif;"> Power stroke shouldn’t
                                  matter, but maybe some dynamic issue
                                  one way or the other?</div>
                                <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                                  sans-serif;">  </div>
                                <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                                  sans-serif;"> Thanks!<br clear="none">
                                  Karl</div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <br clear="none">
                        </blockquote>
                        <br clear="none">
                      </div>
                      _______________________________________________<br
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--------------C4A897ABEF124292D71DD26C--

--===============3545978255381640028==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

[email-masked]

--===============3545978255381640028==--

---

From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 07:37:00 -0500

--===============1562705208730886045==

--000000000000ec385305c2ae1560
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Common misconception.  You have to remember that almost all props are
driven by either reciprocating engines (suck, squeeze, bang, blow) or
turbine engines (one long continious blow job).

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 6:51 AM DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I dunno.  I always heard that prop pilots were always cool.  They screw
> their way across the country whereas jet pilots just suck and blow.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 5:15 AM Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>
> wrote:
>
 all of
l
 I
r.
h
p
it
is
t
ht of
 of mower
no
s no way to tell
one way
> --
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

--=20

--000000000000ec385305c2ae1560
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Common misconception.=C2=A0 You have to remember that almo=
st all props are driven by either reciprocating engines (suck, squeeze, ban=
g, blow) or turbine engines (one long continious blow job).=C2=A0 <br></div=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On We=
d, May 19, 2021 at 6:51 AM DAVID MASSEY &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dave1massey@c=
s.com">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"color:black;font:12pt Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<div> <font size=3D"3">I dunno.=C2=A0 I always heard that prop pilots were =
always cool.=C2=A0 They screw their way across the country whereas jet pilo=
ts just suck and blow.</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
 size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: John Innis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank"=
>[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
To: Jeff Scarbrough &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_b=
lank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">shop-talk=
@autox.team.net</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 5:23 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"gmail-m_-237604625577226252yiv3426673979">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">The whole propeller thing is really overstated.=C2=A0 It i=
s just there to keep the pilot cool.=C2=A0 If the propeller stops turning, =
the pilot often begins sweating. <br clear=3D"none"></div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-237604625577226252yiv3426673979yqtfd02560">
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 5:15 AM Jeff Scarbrough &lt;<a rel=
=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:fishplate@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"=
none"></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-237604625577226252yiv3426673979yqtfd85478">
<div>Not to mention that there are two magnetos.=C2=A0 You don&#39;t want y=
our lawn mower quitting in mid-air.</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, May 18, 2021, 23:15 Bob Spidell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofo=
llow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
t" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none">=
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Magnetos still power the vast majority of small=
 aircraft piston engines; <br clear=3D"none">
they&#39;re a bit more complicated though. Mags in good nick will throw a <=
br clear=3D"none">
really hot spark; they&#39;re always &#39;hot&#39; and the only way to disa=
ble them <br clear=3D"none">
is to ground the primary coil by a &#39;P lead.&#39;<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
On 5/18/2021 8:03 PM, Thomas Coradeschi wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; You=E2=80=99re almost certainly looking at a magneto ignition system i=
n all of those small engines=E2=80=A6 Bog simple indeed!<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; =E2=80=94<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Tom Coradeschi<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none=
">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; On 18 May 2021, at 10:53 PM, Bob Spidell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow no=
opener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" targ=
et=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; re: &quot;... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the=
 inductance field to signal the position for coil firing ...&quot;<br clear=
=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was other=
wise in good shape (how I managed to get it back together still amazes me).=
 IIRC, it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop was &#39;Knife St=
alkers.&#39;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors,=
 the coil and &#39;points,&#39; or whatever solid state switch they are usi=
ng, are very simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger=
 the spark. I use Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a=
 cap on the distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. Sur=
prising to me, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn&#39;t use the cap, a=
pparently the lobes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall =
Effect sensor.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; bs<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; On 5/18/2021 7:38 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Bob,<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.=
=C2=A0 I have a Craftsman 21&quot; walk behind and I usually sharpen the bl=
ade and do maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will=
 fire with the blade removed for sharpening.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sens=
or on the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the in=
ductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of=
 the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it i=
s possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the=
 engine, however.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower =
will fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as =
it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to t=
he crankshaft).<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; best,<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; doug<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofo=
llow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
t" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that =
quit running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn&#39;t find anything, th=
en finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in =
it that caused the problem;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of=
 makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor=
 on it.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; Bob<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:<br clear=
=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a =
thought. I can&#39;t see why it would matter. If it did, they would have de=
signed the adapter differently.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Brian<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Nampa, ID<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Shop-talk &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer=
" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D=
"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; on behalf of Karl Vacek &=
lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:st=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br cle=
ar=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: &#39;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"=
rect" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">shop-talk@=
autox.team.net</a>&#39; &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=
=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-t=
[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to p=
iston<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower bla=
de I thought of something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using =
the same brand of mower for 25 years..<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto th=
e square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.=C2=A0 The mounting point is squar=
e, no pins, no longer side, nothing.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and=
 the other way would be across.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been off many times and =
there=E2=80=99s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.=C2=A0 The man=
ual is silent on this.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dyna=
mic issue one way or the other?<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks!<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Karl<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br clear=3D"no=
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<div dir=3D"ltr">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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<div id=3D"gmail-m_-237604625577226252yqtfd27441">_________________________=
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--000000000000ec385305c2ae1560--

--===============1562705208730886045==
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[email-masked]

--===============1562705208730886045==--

---

From: Pat Horne <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 07:48:27 -0500

--===============7634476720310744107==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

--Apple-Mail-C8E80E24-9610-4C70-B109-4813C6EE2D55
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I=E2=80=99ve had a no start condition a couple times with what appeared to b=
e a good engine. Turned out the flywheel key was bad, it had sheared.=20

Pat Horne=20

On May 19, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Bob Spidell <[email-masked]> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF All I know is what the 'Knife Stalkers'--they sounded like Russian=
s--told me. I don't have a scientific explanation, only that I tore the engi=
ne down and found nothing wrong. I do know that small, basically disposable a=
ppliances are built as simply and cheaply as possible (you can rebuild a Sti=
hl MS170 for about $50). The blade wasn't broken--I would have spotted that-=
-but a crack could disrupt a magnetic field somehow. Like I mentioned, the P=
ertronix in my Healey 100 apparently fires off the cam lobes, with no magnet=
 required to trigger (what I suspect) is a Hall Effect pickup.

> I would find it mildly surprising if they were triggering off of the blade=
 but any motor I've worked on is at least 20 years old.  On those motors (a c=
ouple Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto in the flywheel o=
n the opposite end.  They will run without the blade attached.  Triggering o=
ff the blade means that motor is a special-purpose model for that applicatio=
n.  The economies of scale favor a more generic design.
> I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.  I have a Cr=
aftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance t=
his month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with the blade remo=
ved for sharpening.
>=20
> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the bl=
ade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance fiel=
d to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor pro=
trudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. The=
re is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engine, however=
.
>=20
> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire wi=
thout the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard to=
 predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the crankshaft)=
.
> doug=20
> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit running=
 suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took i=
t to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused the=
 problem; supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark=
. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a positio=
n sensor on it.
>> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can'=
t see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter d=
ifferently.
>>=20
>> Brian
>> Nampa, ID
>>=20
>> From: Shop-talk <[email-masked]> on behalf of Karl Vace=
k <[email-masked]>
>> Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thought of=
f mower for 25 years..
>> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapte=
r keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer=
 side, nothing.
>> =20
>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way w=
ould be across.  It=E2=80=99s been off many times and there=E2=80=99s no way=
 to tell how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
>> Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one w=
ay or the other?
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arc=
hive
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbe=
[email-masked]
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arc=
hive
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1m=
[email-masked]

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

--Apple-Mail-C8E80E24-9610-4C70-B109-4813C6EE2D55
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">I=E2=80=99ve had a no start condition a cou=
ple times with what appeared to be a good engine. Turned out the flywheel ke=
y was bad, it had sheared.&nbsp;<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Pat Horne&nbsp;<div=
>We support Habitat for Humanity</div><div><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<br>On May 19, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Bob Spidell &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wr=
ote:<br><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
 =20
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-8"=
 =20
 =20
    All I know is what the 'Knife Stalkers'--they sounded like
    Russians--told me. I don't have a scientific explanation, only that
    I tore the engine down and found nothing wrong. I do know that
    small, basically disposable appliances are built as simply and
    cheaply as possible (you can rebuild a Stihl MS170 for about $50).
    The blade wasn't broken--I would have spotted that--but a crack
    could disrupt a magnetic field somehow. Like I mentioned, the
    Pertronix in my Healey 100 apparently fires off the cam lobes, with
    no magnet required to trigger (what I suspect) is a Hall Effect
    pickup.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 5/19/2021 5:07 AM, DAVID MASSEY
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:674086163.1251051.1621426055740@ma=
il.yahoo.com">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-=
8">
      <div style=3D"color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
        <div> <font size=3D"3">I would find it mildly surprising if they
            were triggering off of the blade but any motor I've worked
            on is at least 20 years old.&nbsp; On those motors (a couple
            Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto in the
            flywheel on the opposite end.&nbsp; They will run without the
            blade attached.&nbsp; Triggering off the blade means that motor
            is a special-purpose model for that application.&nbsp; The
            economies of scale favor a more generic design.</font><br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div style=3D"clear:both"><font size=3D"4">Dave </font><br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black=
"><font size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
            From: old dirtbeard <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"m=
ailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
            To: Bob Spidell <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailt=
o:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
            Cc: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:shop-ta=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br>
            Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm<br>
            Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to
            piston<br>
            <br>
            <div id=3D"yiv5420248293">
              <div>
                <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Bob,
                  <div><br clear=3D"none">
                  </div>
                  <div>I believe&nbsp;you, of course, but I have never heard=

                    this&nbsp;before.&nbsp; I have a Craftsman 21" walk behi=
nd and
                    I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance&nbsp;this=

                    month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire
                    with the blade removed for sharpening.</div>
                  <div><br clear=3D"none">
                  </div>
                  <div>For this to make sense to me, there would need to
                    be some sensor on the blade, or they are using iron
                    mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to
                    signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum
                    sump of the motor protrudes&nbsp;through the steel deck
                    of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. There is
                    quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of
                    the engine, however.</div>
                  <div><br clear=3D"none">
                  </div>
                  <div>You have me very curious and I will let you know
                    if the mower will fire without the blade&nbsp;attached
                    (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard to
                    predict what would happen without that flywheel
                    attached to the crankshaft).</div>
                  <div><br clear=3D"none">
                  </div>
                  <div>best,</div>
                  <div><br clear=3D"none">
                  </div>
                  <div>doug&nbsp;</div>
                </div>
                <br clear=3D"none">
                <div class=3D"yiv5420248293gmail_quote">
                  <div class=3D"yiv5420248293yqt9341191006" id=3D"yiv5420248=
293yqt66682">
                    <div class=3D"yiv5420248293gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On
                      Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell &lt;<a rel=3D=
"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:bspidell@com=
cast.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" moz-do-not-=
send=3D"true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;
                      wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class=3D"yiv5420248293gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px
                      solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">
                      <div> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman
                        walk-behind that quit running suddenly. I tore
                        the engine down, didn't find anything, then
                        finally took it to a repair shop. They told me
                        the blade had a crack in it that caused the
                        problem; supposedly the blade is part of a
                        timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes
                        sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel
                        with a position sensor on it.<br clear=3D"none">
                        <br clear=3D"none">
                        Bob<br clear=3D"none">
                        <br clear=3D"none">
                        <div>On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy
                          Warrick wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
                        </div>
                        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                          <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica,
                            sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
                            I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have
                            never gave it a thought. I can't see why it
                            would matter. If it did, they would have
                            designed the adapter differently.</div>
                          <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica,
                            sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
                            <br clear=3D"none">
                          </div>
                          <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica,
                            sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
                            Brian</div>
                          <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica,
                            sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
                            Nampa, ID</div>
                          <div>
                            <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica,
sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);"> <br clear=3D"none">
                            </div>
                            <hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%;">
                            <div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yiv5420248293gmail-m_-685=
2136761353026904divRplyFwdMsg"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt;" face=3D"Calib=
ri,
                                sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b>
                                Shop-talk <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener
                                  noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mail=
to:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:shop-t=
[email-masked]" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">&lt;shop-talk-bounces@a=
utox.team.net&gt;</a>
                                on behalf of Karl Vacek <a rel=3D"nofollow n=
oopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" t=
arget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" moz-do-not-send=3D"tr=
ue">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br clear=3D"none">
                                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52
                                PM<br clear=3D"none">
                                <b>To:</b> '<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener
                                  noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mail=
to:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:shop-talk@auto=
x.team.net" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">[email-masked]</a>'
                                <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shap=
e=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" hre=
f=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">&lt;Shop-talk=
@autox.team.net&gt;</a><br clear=3D"none">
                                <b>Subject:</b> [Shop-talk] Mower blade
                                orientaaion relative to piston</font>
                              <div>&nbsp;</div>
                            </div>
                            <div lang=3D"EN-US">
                              <div>
                                <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,
                                  sans-serif;"> Last time I sharpened my
                                  21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thou=
ght
                                  of something that=E2=80=99s never occurred=
 to
                                  me, after using the same brand of
                                  mower for 25 years..</div>
                                <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,
                                  sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</div>
                                <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,
                                  sans-serif;"> On a Snapper, the blade
                                  can actually go on any way onto the
                                  square adapter keyed to the
                                  crankshaft.&nbsp; The mounting point is
                                  square, no pins, no longer side,
                                  nothing.</div>
                                <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,
                                  sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</div>
                                <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,
                                  sans-serif;"> One way would be aligned
                                  with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the
                                  other way would be across.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99=
s been
                                  off many times and there=E2=80=99s no way t=
o
                                  tell how it was mounted originally.&nbsp;
                                  The manual is silent on this.</div>
                                <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,
                                  sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</div>
                                <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,
                                  sans-serif;"> Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99=
t
                                  matter, but maybe some dynamic issue
                                  one way or the other?</div>
                                <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,
                                  sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</div>
                                <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                  0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,
                                  sans-serif;"> Thanks!<br clear=3D"none">
                                  Karl</div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <br clear=3D"none">
                        </blockquote>
                        <br clear=3D"none">
                      </div>
                      _______________________________________________<br cle=
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                    </blockquote>
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            </div>
            <div class=3D"yqt9341191006" id=3D"yqt16240">___________________=
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    </blockquote>
    <br>
 =20

<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span></span=
><br><span>[email-masked]</span><br><span>Donate: http://www.team.=
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--Apple-Mail-C8E80E24-9610-4C70-B109-4813C6EE2D55--

--===============7634476720310744107==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

[email-masked]

--===============7634476720310744107==--

---

From: DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 13:46:41 +0000 (UTC)

--===============2086308431155799762==
	boundary="----=_Part_1260333_1828948358.1621432001965"

------=_Part_1260333_1828948358.1621432001965
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 Like I said, I would be mildly surprised.=C2=A0 Knowing how hard they work=
 to squeeze every penny out of a high-volume product I could see that happe=
ning.=20

That Pertronix sensor must be a precision device to be that critical on the=
 magnetic circuit.=C2=A0 The old school parts had a magnet wheel that slipp=
ed over the shaft.=C2=A0 The Crane on my TR6 uses a light-based interrupter=
 wheel.=C2=A0 It has worked flawlessly for the past 20-odd years.=C2=A0 But=
 I have an Allison on my TR8.=C2=A0 We'll see how well it holds up.=20
=20
Dave=20

=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 7:32 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston

 All I know is what the 'Knife Stalkers'--they sounded like Russians--told =
me. I don't have a scientific explanation, only that I tore the engine down=
 and found nothing wrong. I do know that small, basically disposable applia=
nces are built as simply and cheaply as possible (you can rebuild a Stihl M=
S170 for about $50). The blade wasn't broken--I would have spotted that--bu=
t a crack could disrupt a magnetic field somehow. Like I mentioned, the Per=
tronix in my Healey 100 apparently fires off the cam lobes, with no magnet =
required to trigger (what I suspect) is a Hall Effect pickup.
=20
=20
 On 5/19/2021 5:07 AM, DAVID MASSEY wrote:
 =20
=20
  I would find it mildly surprising if they were triggering off of the blad=
e but any motor I've worked on is at least 20 years old.=C2=A0 On those mot=
ors (a couple Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto in the f=
lywheel on the opposite end.=C2=A0 They will run without the blade attached=
.=C2=A0 Triggering off the blade means that motor is a special-purpose mode=
l for that application.=C2=A0 The economies of scale favor a more generic d=
esign.
  =20
  Dave=20
=20
  =20
  =20
  -----Original Message-----
 From: old dirtbeard <[email-masked]>
 To: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
 Cc: [email-masked]
 Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm
 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
=20
   Hi Bob,=20
  I believe=C2=A0you, of course, but I have never heard this=C2=A0before.=
=C2=A0 I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade a=
nd do maintenance=C2=A0this month, so I think I will see if the engine will=
 fire with the blade removed for sharpening.=20
  For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the b=
lade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance fi=
eld to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor =
protrudes=C2=A0through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is poss=
ible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engin=
e, however.=20
  You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire w=
ithout the blade=C2=A0attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is =
hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the cra=
nkshaft).=20
  best,=20
  doug=C2=A0 =20
   On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <[email-masked]> wrote=
:
 =20
  Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit runnin=
g suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took=
 it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused =
the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the s=
park. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a po=
sition sensor on it.
=20
 Bob
=20
 On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
 =20
  I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can'=
t see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter =
differently. =20
   Brian  Nampa, ID  =20
   From: Shop-talk <[email-masked]> on behalf of Karl Vac=
ek <[email-masked]>
 Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
 To: [email-masked]' <[email-masked]>
 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston =C2=A0    =
 Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thought of =
something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using the same brand o=
f mower for 25 years..  =C2=A0  On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on =
any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.=C2=A0 The mounting=
 point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.  =C2=A0  One way would =
be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.=
=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been off many times and there=E2=80=99s no way to tell =
how it was mounted originally.=C2=A0 The manual is silent on this.  =C2=A0 =
 Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one wa=
y or the other?  =C2=A0  Thanks!
 Karl   =20
=20
=20
  _______________________________________________
=20
 [email-masked]
 Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
 Suggested annual donation=C2=A0 $12.96
 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arc=
hive
=20
 Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbe=
[email-masked]
=20
=20
     _______________________________________________
=20
 [email-masked]
 Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
 Suggested annual donation=C2=A0 $12.96
 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arc=
hive
=20
 Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1m=
[email-masked]
=20
   =20
 _______________________________________________

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

------=_Part_1260333_1828948358.1621432001965
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div style=3D"color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"3">Like I said, I would be mildly surprised.&nbsp; Know=
ing how hard they work to squeeze every penny out of a high-volume product =
I could see that happening. <br>
</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"3"><br>
</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"3">That Pertronix sensor must be a precision device to b=
e that critical on the magnetic circuit.&nbsp; The old school parts had a m=
agnet wheel that slipped over the shaft.&nbsp; The Crane on my TR6 uses a l=
ight-based interrupter wheel.&nbsp; It has worked flawlessly for the past 2=
0-odd years.&nbsp; But I have an Allison on my TR8.&nbsp; We'll see how wel=
l it holds up. </font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
 size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Bob Spidell &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: [email-masked] &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 7:32 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"yiv5761079591">
<div>
    All I know is what the 'Knife Stalkers'--they sounded like
    Russians--told me. I don't have a scientific explanation, only that
    I tore the engine down and found nothing wrong. I do know that
    small, basically disposable appliances are built as simply and
    cheaply as possible (you can rebuild a Stihl MS170 for about $50).
    The blade wasn't broken--I would have spotted that--but a crack
    could disrupt a magnetic field somehow. Like I mentioned, the
    Pertronix in my Healey 100 apparently fires off the cam lobes, with
    no magnet required to trigger (what I suspect) is a Hall Effect
    pickup.<br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
   =20
<div class=3D"yiv5761079591yqt1001570560" id=3D"yiv5761079591yqt68577">
<div class=3D"yiv5761079591moz-cite-prefix">On 5/19/2021 5:07 AM, DAVID MAS=
SEY
      wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
    </div>

<div class=3D"yiv5761079591yqt1001570560" id=3D"yiv5761079591yqt88911">
<div>
<div style=3D"color:black;font:12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
       =20
<div> <font size=3D"3">I would find it mildly surprising if they
            were triggering off of the blade but any motor I've worked
            on is at least 20 years old.&nbsp; On those motors (a couple
            Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto in the
            flywheel on the opposite end.&nbsp; They will run without the
            blade attached.&nbsp; Triggering off the blade means that motor
            is a special-purpose model for that application.&nbsp; The
            economies of scale favor a more generic design.</font><br clear=
=3D"none">
        </div>

       =20
<div> <br clear=3D"none">
        </div>

       =20
<div style=3D"clear:both;"><font size=3D"4">Dave </font><br clear=3D"none">
          <br clear=3D"none">
        </div>

       =20
<div> <br clear=3D"none">
        </div>

       =20
<div> <br clear=3D"none">
        </div>

       =20
<div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;"><fo=
nt size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">
            From: old dirtbeard <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" sha=
pe=3D"rect" class=3D"yiv5761079591moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto=3D"mailto:=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">=
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br clear=3D"none">
            To: Bob Spidell <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=
=3D"rect" class=3D"yiv5761079591moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto=3D"mailto:bs=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">=
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br clear=3D"none">
            Cc: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" clas=
s=3D"yiv5761079591moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto=3D"mailto:shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">sho=
[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none">
            Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm<br clear=3D"none">
            Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to
            piston<br clear=3D"none">
            <br clear=3D"none">
            </font>
<div id=3D"yiv5761079591">
             =20
<div>
               =20
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Bob,
                 =20
<div><br clear=3D"none">
                  </div>

                 =20
<div>I believe&nbsp;you, of course, but I have never heard
                    this&nbsp;before.&nbsp; I have a Craftsman 21" walk beh=
ind and
                    I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance&nbsp;thi=
s
                    month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire
                    with the blade removed for sharpening.</div>

                 =20
<div><br clear=3D"none">
                  </div>

                 =20

                 =20
<div><br clear=3D"none">
                  </div>

                 =20

                 =20
<div><br clear=3D"none">
                  </div>

                 =20
<div>best,</div>

                 =20
<div><br clear=3D"none">
                  </div>

                 =20
<div>doug&nbsp;</div>

                </div>

                <br clear=3D"none">
               =20
<div class=3D"yiv5761079591gmail_quote">
                 =20
<div class=3D"yiv5761079591yqt9341191006" id=3D"yiv5761079591yqt66682">
                   =20
<div class=3D"yiv5761079591gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On
                      Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell &lt;<a rel=
=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:bspidell=
@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">bspide=
[email-masked]</a>&gt;
                      wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
                    </div>

                    <blockquote class=3D"yiv5761079591gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex;">
                     =20

                         =20

                         =20

                         =20

                         =20
<div>
                           =20
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);"> <br clear=3D"none">
                            </div>

                            <hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%;">
                           =20
<div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yiv5761079591gmail-m_-6852136761353026904divRplyFwdM=
sg"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt;" face=3D"Calibri,                       =
          sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b>
                                Shop-talk <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noref=
errer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" t=
arget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;shop-=
[email-masked]&gt;</a>
                                on behalf of Karl Vacek <a rel=3D"nofollow =
noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;stearman809@g=
mail.com&gt;</a><br clear=3D"none">
                                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52
                                PM<br clear=3D"none">
                                <b>To:</b> '<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener nor=
eferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]=
et</a>'
                                <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" sha=
pe=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" h=
ref=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a=

                            </div>

                           =20
<div lang=3D"EN-US">
                             =20
<div>
                               =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> Last time I sharpened my
                                  21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I tho=
ught
                                  of something that=E2=80=99s never occurre=
d to
                                  me, after using the same brand of
                                  mower for 25 years..</div>

                               =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> &nbsp;</div>

                               =20
ans-serif;"> On a Snapper, the blade

                               =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> &nbsp;</div>

                               =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> One way would be aligned
                                  with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the
                                  other way would be across.&nbsp; It=E2=80=
=99s been
                                  off many times and there=E2=80=99s no way=
 to
                                  tell how it was mounted originally.&nbsp;
                                  The manual is silent on this.</div>

                               =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> &nbsp;</div>

                               =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t
                                  matter, but maybe some dynamic issue
                                  one way or the other?</div>

                               =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> &nbsp;</div>

                               =20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> Thanks!<br clear=3D"none">
                                  Karl</div>

                              </div>

                            </div>

                          </div>

                          <br clear=3D"none">
                        </blockquote>
                        <br clear=3D"none">
                      </div>

                      _______________________________________________<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
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                      Donate: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=
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           =20
<div class=3D"yiv5761079591yqt9341191006" id=3D"yiv5761079591yqt16240">____=
___________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">
              <br clear=3D"none">
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              Donate: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect=
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              Archive: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rec=
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              </a><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ta=
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   =20
    <br clear=3D"none">
  </div>
</div>
</div>

<div class=3D"yqt1001570560" id=3D"yqt73826">______________________________=

------=_Part_1260333_1828948358.1621432001965--

--===============2086308431155799762==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

[email-masked]

--===============2086308431155799762==--

---

From: DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 13:47:55 +0000 (UTC)

--===============1956115859512891335==
	boundary="----=_Part_1110336_980487818.1621432075943"

------=_Part_1110336_980487818.1621432075943
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 That would break the hearts of the prop pilots who told me that.
;-)
=20
Dave=20

=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
To: DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>; [email-masked] <Sh=
[email-masked]>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 7:37 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston

Common misconception.=C2=A0 You have to remember that almost all props are =
driven by either reciprocating engines (suck, squeeze, bang, blow) or turbi=
ne engines (one long continious blow job).=C2=A0=20

=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
To: Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 5:23 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston

e way or the other?
archive
[email-masked]
rchive
[email-masked]
chive
[email-masked]

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

@gmail.com

--=20

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

--=20
------=_Part_1110336_980487818.1621432075943

<div style=3D"color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"3">That would break the hearts of the prop pilots who t=
old me that.</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"3">;-)</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
 size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: John Innis &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: DAVID MASSEY &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Cc: [email-masked] &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; [email-masked]=
et &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 7:37 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"yiv2789538471">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Common misconception.&nbsp; You have to remember that almo=
st all props are driven by either reciprocating engines (suck, squeeze, ban=
g, blow) or turbine engines (one long continious blow job).&nbsp; <br clear=
=3D"none"></div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"yiv2789538471yqt7428435386" id=3D"yiv2789538471yqt44161">
<div class=3D"yiv2789538471gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"yiv2789538471gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, May 19, 2021 at =
6:51 AM DAVID MASSEY &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"r=
ect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto=
:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"></=
div>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv2789538471gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">

<div> <font size=3D"3">I dunno.&nbsp; I always heard that prop pilots were =
always cool.&nbsp; They screw their way across the country whereas jet pilo=
ts just suck and blow.</font><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;"><fo=
nt size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">
From: John Innis &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect"=
 ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:jdin=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
To: Jeff Scarbrough &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"re=
ct" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto=
:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
Cc: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailt=
o:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:shop-talk@auto=
x.team.net">[email-masked]</a> &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener no=
referrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]=
et</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 5:23 am<br clear=3D"none">
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston<br clea=
r=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">

</font>
<div id=3D"yiv2789538471gmail-m_-237604625577226252yiv3426673979">

<div>

<br clear=3D"none">

<div>

<div id=3D"yiv2789538471gmail-m_-237604625577226252yiv3426673979yqtfd02560"=

<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 5:15 AM Jeff Scarbrough &lt;<a rel=
=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:fishplat=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">fishplat=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"></div>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">

<div id=3D"yiv2789538471gmail-m_-237604625577226252yiv3426673979yqtfd85478"=

<br clear=3D"none">

<div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, May 18, 2021, 23:15 Bob Spidell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofo=
llow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast=
.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">bspidell@comca=
st.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"></div>

,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">Magnetos still power the vast majority of smal=
l aircraft piston engines; <br clear=3D"none">

<div dir=3D"ltr">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br clear=3D"none">=3D Never offe=
nd people with style when you&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D<br clear=3D"none">=3D can off=
end with substance --- Sam Brown&nbsp; =3D

<div id=3D"yiv2789538471gmail-m_-237604625577226252yiv3426673979yqtfd85992"=
><br clear=3D"none">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div>

</div>

<div id=3D"yiv2789538471gmail-m_-237604625577226252yiv3426673979yqtfd90930"=
</div>

</div>

</div>

<div id=3D"yiv2789538471gmail-m_-237604625577226252yqtfd27441">____________=
___________________________________<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a=
 rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Shop=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
.net">[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none">Donate: <a rel=3D"nofo=
llow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://w=
ww.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br clear=3D"no=
ne">Suggested annual donation&nbsp; $12.96<br clear=3D"none">Archive: <a re=
l=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D=
"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk">http://www.team.net/pipermail/sho=
p-talk </a><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D=
"_blank" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive">http://autox.team.net/archi=
ve</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Unsubscribe/Manage: <a rel=3D"n=
ofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http:=
//autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]">http://autox=
.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none=
"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote></div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"all"><br clear=3D"none">-- <br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"yiv2789538471gmail_signature" dir=3D"ltr">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D<br clear=3D"none">=3D Never offend people with style when you&nbsp;&=
nbsp; =3D<br clear=3D"none">=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown&nbs=
p; =3D<br clear=3D"none">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div>

</div>
</div>
</font></div>
</div>

------=_Part_1110336_980487818.1621432075943--

--===============1956115859512891335==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

[email-masked]

--===============1956115859512891335==--

---

From: DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 13:58:07 +0000 (UTC)

--===============0064226409399508483==
	boundary="----=_Part_1270736_859333598.1621432687638"

------=_Part_1270736_859333598.1621432687638
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 On those engines (the only ones I have had experience with) the spark is f=
ired on every revolution and deep down there is a cam lobe on the crank and=
 a set of points that times the firing.=C2=A0 But the magnets must be passi=
ng by the coil at the time or you get nothing.=C2=A0=20

I have a small yard so we went electric on the mower.=C2=A0 It's great.=C2=
=A0 The only maintenance is to sharpen the blade every year.=C2=A0 It's so =
easy to use that my wife does all the mowing.=C2=A0 Drop in the battery, pu=
sh the button and go.=C2=A0 I still have the gas powered chipper/shredder w=
hich needs a carb overhaul about every two to three years.=C2=A0 Considerin=
g that I drag it out about three times a year the use/overhaul ratio is qui=
te low.
I got enough car stuff to keep me busy.
Cheers all.
=20
Dave=20

=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Horne <[email-masked]>
To: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 7:48 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston

I=E2=80=99ve had a no start condition a couple times with what appeared to =
be a good engine. Turned out the flywheel key was bad, it had sheared.=C2=
=A0

Pat Horne=C2=A0We support Habitat for Humanity

=EF=BB=BF  All I know is what the 'Knife Stalkers'--they sounded like Russi=
ans--told me. I don't have a scientific explanation, only that I tore the e=
ngine down and found nothing wrong. I do know that small, basically disposa=
ble appliances are built as simply and cheaply as possible (you can rebuild=
 a Stihl MS170 for about $50). The blade wasn't broken--I would have spotte=
d that--but a crack could disrupt a magnetic field somehow. Like I mentione=
d, the Pertronix in my Healey 100 apparently fires off the cam lobes, with =
no magnet required to trigger (what I suspect) is a Hall Effect pickup.
=20
=20
 On 5/19/2021 5:07 AM, DAVID MASSEY wrote:
 =20
=20
  I would find it mildly surprising if they were triggering off of the blad=
e but any motor I've worked on is at least 20 years old.=C2=A0 On those mot=
ors (a couple Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto in the f=
lywheel on the opposite end.=C2=A0 They will run without the blade attached=
.=C2=A0 Triggering off the blade means that motor is a special-purpose mode=
l for that application.=C2=A0 The economies of scale favor a more generic d=
esign.
  =20
  Dave=20
=20
  =20
  =20
  -----Original Message-----
 From: old dirtbeard <[email-masked]>
 To: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
 Cc: [email-masked]
 Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm
 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
=20
   Hi Bob,=20

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

------=_Part_1270736_859333598.1621432687638
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div style=3D"color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"3">On those engines (the only ones I have had experienc=
e with) the spark is fired on every revolution and deep down there is a cam=
 lobe on the crank and a set of points that times the firing.&nbsp; But the=
 magnets must be passing by the coil at the time or you get nothing.&nbsp; =
<br>
</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"3">I have a small yard so we went electric on the mower.=
&nbsp; It's great.&nbsp; The only maintenance is to sharpen the blade every=
 year.&nbsp; It's so easy to use that my wife does all the mowing.&nbsp; Dr=
op in the battery, push the button and go.&nbsp; I still have the gas power=
ed chipper/shredder which needs a carb overhaul about every two to three ye=
ars.&nbsp; Considering that I drag it out about three times a year the use/=
overhaul ratio is quite low.</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"3">I got enough car stuff to keep me busy.</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"3">Cheers all.</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
 size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Pat Horne &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: Bob Spidell &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Cc: [email-masked]<br>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 7:48 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"yiv3206650706">
<div>I=E2=80=99ve had a no start condition a couple times with what appeare=
d to be a good engine. Turned out the flywheel key was bad, it had sheared.=
&nbsp;<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Pat Horne&nbsp;
<div>We support Habitat for Humanity</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"yiv3206650706yqt2712292610" id=3D"yiv3206650706yqtfd55748"><b=
r clear=3D"none">On May 19, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Bob Spidell &lt;bspidell@comc=
ast.net&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
</div>

<div class=3D"yiv3206650706yqt2712292610" id=3D"yiv3206650706yqtfd15972">
<div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
 =20
    </div>
</div>
</div>

<div class=3D"yiv3206650706yqt2712292610" id=3D"yiv3206650706yqtfd69834">
<div>
 =20
 =20
<div class=3D"yiv3206650706moz-cite-prefix">On 5/19/2021 5:07 AM, DAVID MAS=

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv3206650706yqt2712292610" id=3D"yiv3206650706yqtfd18274">

       =20

       =20

       =20

       =20

       =20
<div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;"><fo=
nt size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">
            From: old dirtbeard <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" sha=
pe=3D"rect" class=3D"yiv3206650706moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto=3D"mailto:=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">=
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br clear=3D"none">
            To: Bob Spidell <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=
=3D"rect" class=3D"yiv3206650706moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto=3D"mailto:bs=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">=
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br clear=3D"none">
            Cc: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" clas=
s=3D"yiv3206650706moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto=3D"mailto:shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">sho=
[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none">
            Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm<br clear=3D"none">
            Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to
            piston<br clear=3D"none">
            <br clear=3D"none">
            </font>
<div id=3D"yiv3206650706">
             =20
<div>
               =20
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Bob,
                 =20
<div><br clear=3D"none">
                  </div>

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<div>best,</div>

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<div>doug&nbsp;</div>

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<div class=3D"yiv3206650706gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On
                      Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell &lt;<a rel=
=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:bspidell=
@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">bspide=
[email-masked]</a>&gt;
                      wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
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<div class=3D"yqt2712292610" id=3D"yqtfd74250">____________________________=

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