Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use?

From: Steven Trovato <[email-masked]> mail.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 16:23:49 -0400

I have a 4 cylinder MG engine that was removed from a car in good 
working order.  I know the previous owner and I trust him.  The 
engine has been stored without valve cover, oil pan, manifolds, etc 
in a working garage.  It basically just sat in the corner for a year 
or so.  I would like to use this engine as is, without disassembling 
further.  My question is, how would you clean this before use?  I 
could use a hose, but I am concerned that water will get trapped in 
inaccessible places.  I also considered spraying it down with 
WD-40.  They make a "big blast" version with a wide area 
spray.  There isn't any major dirt I'm trying to deal with, but I 
figure a couple of grains of sand could have landed in it 
somewhere.  It seems like a rinse would be a good idea.  Thoughts?

-Steve T.

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From: Karl Vacek <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 16:13:21 -0500

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Kerosene
I used to rinse down my race car engine in the driveway with kerosene when 
doing bearings or rings.  Didn't have garage space so the great outdoors 
was my garage

On April 1, 2021 3:25:09 PM Steven Trovato <[email-masked]> wrote:

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<div dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"auto">Kerosene</div><div dir=3D"auto">I used to rinse down my r=
ace car engine in the driveway with kerosene when doing bearings or rings.&=
nbsp; Didn't have garage space so the great outdoors was my garage&nbsp;</d=
iv><div dir=3D'auto'><br></div>
<div id=3D"aqm-original" style=3D"color: black;">
<div dir=3D"auto">On April 1, 2021 3:25:09 PM Steven Trovato &lt;strovato@o=
ptonline.net&gt; wrote:</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.75=
ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
<div dir=3D"auto">I have a 4 cylinder MG engine that was removed from a car=
 in good&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">working order. &nbsp;I know the previous owner and I trus=
t him. &nbsp;The&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">engine has been stored without valve cover, oil pan, mani=
folds, etc&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">in a working garage. &nbsp;It basically just sat in the c=
orner for a year&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">or so. &nbsp;I would like to use this engine as is, witho=
ut disassembling&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">further. &nbsp;My question is, how would you clean this b=
efore use? &nbsp;I&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">could use a hose, but I am concerned that water will get =
trapped in&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">inaccessible places. &nbsp;I also considered spraying it =
down with&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">WD-40. &nbsp;They make a "big blast" version with a wide =
area&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">spray. &nbsp;There isn't any major dirt I'm trying to dea=
l with, but I&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">figure a couple of grains of sand could have landed in it=
&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">somewhere. &nbsp;It seems like a rinse would be a good id=
ea. &nbsp;Thoughts?</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">-Steve T.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">--&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antiviru=
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</blockquote>
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[email-masked]

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From: Steven Trovato <[email-masked]> m>
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 21:12:13 -0400

How do you use the kerosene?  Do you put it in a sprayer?  How do you 
deal with the resulting mess?

At 05:13 PM 4/1/2021, Karl Vacek wrote:
>Kerosene
>I used to rinse down my race car engine in the driveway with 
>kerosene when doing bearings or rings.  Didn't have garage space so 
>the great outdoors was my garage

[email-masked]

---

From: Karl Vacek <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 20:38:31 -0500

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I sprayed it through a solvent siphon gun, and just put plastic and 
cardboard under the engine to catch the mess.  Now this was 1970-73...

>> the great outdoors was my garage

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<div dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"auto">I sprayed it through a solvent siphon gun, and just put p=
lastic and cardboard under the engine to catch the mess.&nbsp; Now this was=
 1970-73...</div><div dir=3D'auto'><br></div>
<div id=3D"aqm-original" style=3D"color: black;">
<div dir=3D"auto">On April 1, 2021 8:13:12 PM Steven Trovato &lt;strovato@o=
ptonline.net&gt; wrote:</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.75=
ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
<div dir=3D"auto">How do you use the kerosene? &nbsp;Do you put it in a spr=
ayer? &nbsp;How do you&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">deal with the resulting mess?</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">At 05:13 PM 4/1/2021, Karl Vacek wrote:</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.75=
ex; border-left: 1px solid #0099CC; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
<div dir=3D"auto">Kerosene</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I used to rinse down my race car engine in the driveway w=
ith&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">kerosene when doing bearings or rings. &nbsp;Didn't have =
garage space so&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">the great outdoors was my garage</div>
</blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">--&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antiviru=
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[email-masked]

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---

From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 20:47:45 -0500

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--00000000000075306205bef38903

I have not had an engine sit "open" for this long, but for shorter
durations, even in dusty shops, I usually just blow off the surface dust
with an air hose, put clean oil in, run it for a short time, and then
change the oil and filter.  I don't like to use solvent on a motor that I
am not going to completely tear down.  Kerosene would not be bad, as it
still has some lubricating properties.  Anything more volatile than that
and you risk scoring bearings and valve guides on startup.

On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 3:26 PM Steven Trovato <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

--00000000000075306205bef38903
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I have not had an engine sit &quot;open&quot; for this lon=
g, but for shorter durations, even in dusty shops, I usually just blow off =
the surface dust with an air hose, put clean oil in, run it for a short tim=
e, and then change the oil and filter.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t like to use solven=
t on a motor that I am not going to completely tear down.=C2=A0 Kerosene wo=
uld not be bad, as it still has some lubricating properties.=C2=A0 Anything=
 more volatile than that and you risk scoring bearings and valve guides on =
startup.<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 3:26 PM Steven Trovato &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I have a 4 cylinder MG e=
ngine that was removed from a car in good <br>
working order.=C2=A0 I know the previous owner and I trust him.=C2=A0 The <=
br>
engine has been stored without valve cover, oil pan, manifolds, etc <br>
in a working garage.=C2=A0 It basically just sat in the corner for a year <=
br>
or so.=C2=A0 I would like to use this engine as is, without disassembling <=
br>
further.=C2=A0 My question is, how would you clean this before use?=C2=A0 I=
 <br>
could use a hose, but I am concerned that water will get trapped in <br>
inaccessible places.=C2=A0 I also considered spraying it down with <br>
WD-40.=C2=A0 They make a &quot;big blast&quot; version with a wide area <br=
spray.=C2=A0 There isn&#39;t any major dirt I&#39;m trying to deal with, bu=
t I <br>
figure a couple of grains of sand could have landed in it <br>
somewhere.=C2=A0 It seems like a rinse would be a good idea.=C2=A0 Thoughts=
?<br>
<br>
-Steve T.<br>
<br>
<br>
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From: Steven Trovato <[email-masked]> mail.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 21:57:05 -0400

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Well, even if I used a solvent, I would still put 
oil in it and pressurize the oil system before 
starting.  Bearings and valve guides will be 
lubricated with oil, with perhaps a slight trace 
of solvent.  Then the quick oil change should 
take care of that.  I agree that kerosene would 
be a particularly low risk choice.

At 09:47 PM 4/1/2021, John Innis wrote:
>I have not had an engine sit "open" for this 
>long, but for shorter durations, even in dusty 
>shops, I usually just blow off the surface dust 
>with an air hose, put clean oil in, run it for a 
>short time, and then change the oil and 
>filter.=C2  I don't like to use solvent on a motor 
>that I am not going to completely tear 
>down.=C2  Kerosene would not be bad, as it still 
>has some lubricating properties.=C2  Anything more 
>volatile than that and you risk scoring bearings and valve guides on start=
up.
>
>On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 3:26 PM Steven Trovato 
>working order.=C2  I know the previous owner and I trust him.=C2  The
>in a working garage.=C2  It basically just sat in the corner for a year
>or so.=C2  I would like to use this engine as is, without disassembling
>further.=C2  My question is, how would you clean this before use?=C2  I
>inaccessible places.=C2  I also considered spraying it down with
>WD-40.=C2  They make a "big blast" version with a wide area
>spray.=C2  There isn't any major dirt I'm trying to deal with, but I
>somewhere.=C2  It seems like a rinse would be a good idea.=C2  Thoughts?
>
>-Steve T.

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<body>
Well, even if I used a solvent, I would still put oil in it and
pressurize the oil system before starting.&nbsp; Bearings and valve
guides will be lubricated with oil, with perhaps a slight trace of
solvent.&nbsp; Then the quick oil change should take care of that.&nbsp;
I agree that kerosene would be a particularly low risk choice.&nbsp;
<br><br>
At 09:47 PM 4/1/2021, John Innis wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D"">I have not had an engine sit=

&quot;open&quot; for this long, but for shorter durations, even in dusty
shops, I usually just blow off the surface dust with an air hose, put
clean oil in, run it for a short time, and then change the oil and
filter.=C2&nbsp; I don't like to use solvent on a motor that I am not going=

to completely tear down.=C2&nbsp; Kerosene would not be bad, as it still
has some lubricating properties.=C2&nbsp; Anything more volatile than that
and you risk scoring bearings and valve guides on startup.<br><br>
On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 3:26 PM Steven Trovato
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>
&gt; wrote:<br>

<dl>
<dd>I have a 4 cylinder MG engine that was removed from a car in good
<br>

<dd>working order.=C2&nbsp; I know the previous owner and I trust
him.=C2&nbsp; The <br>

<dd>engine has been stored without valve cover, oil pan, manifolds, etc
<br>

<dd>in a working garage.=C2&nbsp; It basically just sat in the corner for a=

year <br>

<dd>or so.=C2&nbsp; I would like to use this engine as is, without
disassembling <br>

<dd>further.=C2&nbsp; My question is, how would you clean this before
use?=C2&nbsp; I <br>

<dd>could use a hose, but I am concerned that water will get trapped in
<br>

<dd>inaccessible places.=C2&nbsp; I also considered spraying it down with
<br>

<dd>WD-40.=C2&nbsp; They make a &quot;big blast&quot; version with a wide
area <br>

<dd>spray.=C2&nbsp; There isn't any major dirt I'm trying to deal with, but=

I <br>

<dd>figure a couple of grains of sand could have landed in it <br>

<dd>somewhere.=C2&nbsp; It seems like a rinse would be a good idea.=C2&nbsp=
;
Thoughts?<br><br>

<dd>-Steve T.
</dl></blockquote><div id=3D"DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
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[email-masked]

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From: "Tim ." <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 15:05:41 +0000

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I've read some replies and thought I'd chime in.....

With all the peripherals removed, were the openings taped over? If not, bes=
t to be certain there isn't a rodent nest inside. I've seen it first hand a=
s well as a mounted water pump, not closed off, that was full of decon pell=
ets. The water pump was full like the little bastards were spinning it to m=
ake sure every bit of space was used for 'storage'. I wish I had pictures b=
ut this was before I had a smart ass phone......

tim

________________________________
From: Shop-talk <[email-masked]> on behalf of Steven Trov=
ato <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, April 1, 2021 3:23 PM
To: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use?

-Steve T.

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arch=
ive

[email-masked]

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<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bo=
ttom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I've read some replies and thought I'd chime in.....</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
With all the peripherals removed, were the openings taped over? If not, bes=
t to be certain there isn't a rodent nest inside. I've seen it first hand a=
s well as a mounted water pump, not closed off, that was full of decon pell=
ets. The water pump was full like
 the little bastards were spinning it to make sure every bit of space was u=
sed for 'storage'. I wish I had pictures but this was before I had a smart =
ass phone......</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
tim</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"appendonsend"></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co=
lor=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Shop-talk &lt;shop-ta=
[email-masked]&gt; on behalf of Steven Trovato &lt;strovato@opto=
nline.net&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 1, 2021 3:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> [email-masked] &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use?</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"=
<div class=3D"PlainText">I have a 4 cylinder MG engine that was removed fro=
m a car in good
<br>
working order.&nbsp; I know the previous owner and I trust him.&nbsp; The <=
br>
engine has been stored without valve cover, oil pan, manifolds, etc <br>
in a working garage.&nbsp; It basically just sat in the corner for a year <=
br>
or so.&nbsp; I would like to use this engine as is, without disassembling <=
br>
further.&nbsp; My question is, how would you clean this before use?&nbsp; I=
 <br>
could use a hose, but I am concerned that water will get trapped in <br>
inaccessible places.&nbsp; I also considered spraying it down with <br>
WD-40.&nbsp; They make a &quot;big blast&quot; version with a wide area <br=
spray.&nbsp; There isn't any major dirt I'm trying to deal with, but I <br>
figure a couple of grains of sand could have landed in it <br>
somewhere.&nbsp; It seems like a rinse would be a good idea.&nbsp; Thoughts=
?<br>
<br>
-Steve T.<br>
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From: Thomas Coradeschi <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 11:12:31 -0400

Steve: I am firmly of the belief that the only thing which should go near the valve train or the crankcase is motor oil. For an engine that’s been sitting, making sure you have lubrication is key.

My Dad was a bona-fide MG guy for years - used one of his (the ‘78, I think) as a daily driver for quite some time in the late 80s and was very active in our local MG club. Based on what I’ve seen, those pushrod motors are pretty much the textbook definition of mechanically bulletproof. Electrics of the era? Errrr, not so much.

I’d suggest that you do the following. 

Blow off any loose crud you see with compressed air (stuff rags in the intake ports first). Re-install the valve cover, pan, manifolds, etc and get the motor in the car and hooked up to cooling, electrical, fuel, etc. 

Before you fire it, pull the plugs and disable the ignition (pull the hot wire off the coil or ground its output), then spin the engine over until you have positive indication of oil pressure - either on a gage, if it has one, or by seeing the idiot light go out. 

Once that’s done, reinstall the plugs, hook up the ignition and fire it up, again observing whatever indicators you have relative to oil pressure.

My $0.02, and worth what you paid for it:-)

Tom Coradeschi
[email-masked]

> On Apr 1, 2021, at 4:26 PM, Steven Trovato <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> I have a 4 cylinder MG engine that was removed from a car in good working order.  I know the previous owner and I trust him.  The engine has been stored without valve cover, oil pan, manifolds, etc in a working garage.  It basically just sat in the corner for a year or so.  I would like to use this engine as is, without disassembling further.  My question is, how would you clean this before use?  I could use a hose, but I am concerned that water will get trapped in inaccessible places.  I also considered spraying it down with WD-40.  They make a "big blast" version with a wide area spray.  There isn't any major dirt I'm trying to deal with, but I figure a couple of grains of sand could have landed in it somewhere.  It seems like a rinse would be a good idea.  Thoughts?
> 
> -Steve T.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
> 

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From: Steven Trovato <[email-masked]> d19.prod.outlook.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2021 11:59:59 -0400

Hi Tim.  Nothing was taped over.  Careful inspection shows no sign of rodents.

-Steve T.

At 11:05 AM 4/2/2021, Tim . wrote:
>Content-Language: en-US
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> 
>With all the peripherals removed, were the openings taped over? If 
>not, best to be certain there isn't a rodent nest inside. I've seen 
>it first hand as well as a mounted water pump, not closed off, that 
>was full of decon pellets. The water pump was full like the little 
>bastards were spinning it to make sure every bit of space was used 
>for 'storage'. I wish I had pictures but this was before I had a 
>smart ass phone......
>
>tim

[email-masked]

---

From: Steven Trovato <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2021 12:08:47 -0400

Tom,

My plan is to do pretty much what you describe.  Was just considering 
some sort of cleaning first.  You want to stuff rags in the intake 
before using compressed air, but it has been wide open for a 
year.  That will keep debris from entering, but I have no idea what 
might have entered already.

-Steve T.

At 11:12 AM 4/2/2021, Thomas Coradeschi wrote:
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64Steve: I am firmly of the belief 
>that the only thing which should go near the valve train or the 
>crankcase is motor oil. For an engine that's been sitting, making 
>sure you have lubrication is key.
>
>My Dad was a bona-fide MG guy for years - used one of his (the '78, 
>I think) as a daily driver for quite some time in the late 80s and 
>was very active in our local MG club. Based on what I've seen, those 
>pushrod motors are pretty much the textbook definition of 
>mechanically bulletproof. Electrics of the era Errrr, not so much.
>
>I'd suggest that you do the following.
>
>Blow off any loose crud you see with compressed air (stuff rags in 
>the intake ports first). Re-install the valve cover, pan, manifolds, 
>etc and get the motor in the car and hooked up to cooling, 
>electrical, fuel, etc.
>
>Before you fire it, pull the plugs and disable the ignition (pull 
>the hot wire off the coil or ground its output), then spin the 
>engine over until you have positive indication of oil pressure - 
>either on a gage, if it has one, or by seeing the idiot light go out.
>
>Once that's done, reinstall the plugs, hook up the ignition and fire 
>it up, again observing whatever indicators you have relative to oil pressure.
>

[email-masked]

---

From: old dirtbeard <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 09:24:26 -0700

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--000000000000c59d8605beffc88a

Hi Steve,

I have done a few engines including a TR6 that had set for a while, similar
to your scenario.

Like others, I would brush/blow-off all the debris possible, drop the oil
pan for a look-see, put all of the covers back on, and fill it with cheap
detergent oil for the eventual restart.

Then a quick run followed by an oil and filter change. I think it should be
fine unless it was exposed to water or other contaminants.

best,

doug

On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 9:05 AM Steven Trovato <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>

--000000000000c59d8605beffc88a
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Steve,<div><br></div><div>I have done a few engines inc=
luding a TR6 that had set for a while, similar to your scenario.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Like others, I would brush/blow-off all the debris possible,=
 drop the oil pan for a look-see, put all of the covers back on, and fill i=
t with cheap detergent oil for the=C2=A0eventual restart.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Then a quick run followed by an oil and filter change. I think it s=
hould be fine unless it was exposed to water or other contaminants.=C2=A0</=
div><div><br></div><div>best,</div><div><br></div><div>doug=C2=A0</div></di=
v><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On F=
ri, Apr 2, 2021 at 9:05 AM Steven Trovato &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:strovato@op=
tonline.net">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Tim.=C2=A0 Nothing was taped over.=C2=
=A0 Careful inspection shows no sign of rodents.<br>
<br>
-Steve T.<br>
<br>
At 11:05 AM 4/2/2021, Tim . wrote:<br>
&gt;Content-Language: en-US<br>
&gt;Content-Type: multipart/alternative;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;boundary=3D&quot;_000_DS7PR19MB46292773B74AAFFE20D16916B47A9DS7PR19MB46=
29namp_&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I&#39;ve read some replies and thought I&#39;d chime in.....<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;With all the peripherals removed, were the openings taped over? If <br>
&gt;not, best to be certain there isn&#39;t a rodent nest inside. I&#39;ve =
seen <br>
&gt;it first hand as well as a mounted water pump, not closed off, that <br=
&gt;was full of decon pellets. The water pump was full like the little <br>
&gt;bastards were spinning it to make sure every bit of space was used <br>
&gt;for &#39;storage&#39;. I wish I had pictures but this was before I had =
a <br>
&gt;smart ass phone......<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;tim<br>
<br>
<br>
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