Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] mini-split or window unit ?

From: Phil Ethier <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 17:51:51 -0500

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Split is better for security. You can=E2=80=99t punch it through and climb t=
hrough the hole.=20

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 20, 2021, at 12:18 PM, [email-masked] wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFMike, last march I installed a mini-split in my bedroom.  It was p=
rofessionally sourced and installed (Carrer)=20
>=20
> I LOVE that thing.  While it was only sized for my bedroom, I can cool the=
 entire upstairs with it and even provide cooling for the downstairs.=20
>=20
> So, I looked at my shop (2600SQFT) and thought I could put one in there.=20=

>=20
> I bought one from Walmart (the largest one I could find) and installed it m=
yself.   It is a really easy deal.  I did have a buddy help me with the vacu=
um lines when i was done.=20
>  Now I will never consider a window mount unit, EVER!  I had them in there=
 for years, super loud, poor cooling (and a blast fan), terrible inefficent.=
  Not to mention couldn't really seal the window from incects.  Also, the ne=
ed to put it in and take it out all the time.  No more.=20
>=20
> I'm a mini split convert.=20
>=20
> The ONLY downside, is that if it is a nice cool day outside, they can't bl=
ow that air in the house.  But I can use another fan for those times.=20
>=20
> Enjoy!=20
>=20
> Moose=20
> _______________________________________________
>=20
> [email-masked]
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>=20
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Split is better for security. You can=E2=80=
=99t punch it through and climb through the hole.&nbsp;<br><br><div dir=3D"l=
tr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
On Apr 20, 2021, at 12:18 PM, [email-masked] wrote:<br><br></blockquote><=
/div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<font size=3D"2" fa=
ce=3D"sans-serif">Mike, last march I installed a mini-split
in my bedroom. &nbsp;It was professionally sourced and installed (Carrer)</f=
ont>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">I LOVE that thing. &nbsp;While it w=
as
only sized for my bedroom, I can cool the entire upstairs with it and even
provide cooling for the downstairs.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">So, I looked at my shop (2600SQFT) a=
nd
thought I could put one in there.</font>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
I bought one from Walmart (the largest one I could find) and installed
it myself. &nbsp; It is a really easy deal. &nbsp;I did have a buddy help
me with the vacuum lines when i was done.</font>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">&nbsp;Now I will never consider a w=
indow
mount unit, EVER! &nbsp;I had them in there for years, super loud, poor
cooling (and a blast fan), terrible inefficent. &nbsp;Not to mention couldn'=
t
really seal the window from incects. &nbsp;Also, the need to put it in
and take it out all the time. &nbsp;No more.</font>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
I'm a mini split convert.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">The ONLY downside, is that if it is=

a nice cool day outside, they can't blow that air in the house. &nbsp;But
I can use another fan for those times.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Enjoy!</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Moose</font>
<br><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span></=
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n></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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_______________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From: MIQ MILLMAN <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 18:33:29 -0700

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Plus, you can just balance the unit on your head and walk up the ladder to
install it.
(I took these photos almost 15 years ago in Ghana setting up a government
data center in Kpando on the shores of Lake Volta)

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 3:52 PM Phil Ethier <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Split is better for security. You can=E2=80=99t punch it through and clim=
b through
> the hole.
> =EF=BB=BFMike, last march I installed a mini-split in my bedroom.  It was
> professionally sourced and installed (Carrer)
>
> I LOVE that thing.  While it was only sized for my bedroom, I can cool th=
e
> entire upstairs with it and even provide cooling for the downstairs.
>
> So, I looked at my shop (2600SQFT) and thought I could put one in there.
>
> I bought one from Walmart (the largest one I could find) and installed it
> myself.   It is a really easy deal.  I did have a buddy help me with the
> vacuum lines when i was done.
>  Now I will never consider a window mount unit, EVER!  I had them in ther=
e
> for years, super loud, poor cooling (and a blast fan), terrible
> inefficent.  Not to mention couldn't really seal the window from incects.
> Also, the need to put it in and take it out all the time.  No more.
>
> I'm a mini split convert.
>
> The ONLY downside, is that if it is a nice cool day outside, they can't
> blow that air in the house.  But I can use another fan for those times.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Moose
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Plus, you can just balance the unit on your head and walk =
up the ladder to install it.<div><img src=3D"cid:ii_knqs2cge0" alt=3D"CoolH=
ead.jpg" width=3D"240" height=3D"539"><br></div><div>(I took these photos a=
lmost 15 years ago in Ghana setting up a government data center in Kpando o=
n the shores of Lake Volta)</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 3:52 PM Phil Ethie=
r &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"a=
uto">Split is better for security. You can=E2=80=99t punch it through and c=
limb through the hole.=C2=A0<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Sent from my iPhone</d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Apr 20, 2021, at 12:18=
 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]=
om</a> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Mike, last march I i=
nstalled a mini-split
in my bedroom.=C2=A0 It was professionally sourced and installed (Carrer)</=
font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">I LOVE that thing.=C2=A0 While it =
was
only sized for my bedroom, I can cool the entire upstairs with it and even
provide cooling for the downstairs.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">So, I looked at my shop (2600SQFT)=
 and
thought I could put one in there.</font>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
I bought one from Walmart (the largest one I could find) and installed
it myself. =C2=A0 It is a really easy deal.=C2=A0 I did have a buddy help
me with the vacuum lines when i was done.</font>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">=C2=A0Now I will never consider a =
window
mount unit, EVER!=C2=A0 I had them in there for years, super loud, poor
cooling (and a blast fan), terrible inefficent.=C2=A0 Not to mention couldn=
&#39;t
really seal the window from incects.=C2=A0 Also, the need to put it in
and take it out all the time.=C2=A0 No more.</font>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
I&#39;m a mini split convert.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">The ONLY downside, is that if it i=
s
a nice cool day outside, they can&#39;t blow that air in the house.=C2=A0 B=
ut
I can use another fan for those times.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Enjoy!</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Moose</font>
<br><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span><=
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Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" target=3D"_bla=
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[email-masked]

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From: Battmain <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:00:36 +0000 (UTC)

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I have a mini split in my master bedroom. I can set it to whatever temp I w=
ant and not worry about triple digit electric bills with the main AC.=C2=A0=
 It is so efficient I have it set in 80 most of the time, 78 or 79 during t=
he summer and I can barely hear it. Go for it. As for wire and circuit, I a=
m using my old 30a lawn sprinkler wiring and when I get around to it will a=
dd new sub panel to put=C2=A0 the sprinkler back in. IMO, mini split much m=
ore efficient than window AC as that was a thought at that time too.=C2=A0

Brian=20
=20
  On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 21:34, MIQ MILLMAN<[email-masked]> wrote:   ___=
____________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arch=
ive

[email-masked]

 =20

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I have a mini split in my master bedroom. I can set it to whatever temp I w=
ant and not worry about triple digit electric bills with the main AC.&nbsp;=
 It is so efficient I have it set in 80 most of the time, 78 or 79 during t=
he summer and I can barely hear it. Go for it. As for wire and circuit, I a=
m using my old 30a lawn sprinkler wiring and when I get around to it will a=
dd new sub panel to put&nbsp; the sprinkler back in. IMO, mini split much m=
ore efficient than window AC as that was a thought at that time too.&nbsp;<=
br><br><div id=3D"ymail_android_signature">Brian</div> <br> <blockquote sty=
le=3D"margin: 0 0 20px 0;"> <div style=3D"font-family:Roboto, sans-serif; c=
olor:#6D00F6;"> <div>On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 21:34, MIQ MILLMAN</div><div i=
d=3D"yMail_cursorElementTracker_1619013322616">&lt;[email-masked]&gt; wro=
te:</div> </div> <div style=3D"padding: 10px 0 0 20px; margin: 10px 0 0 0; =
border-left: 1px solid #6D00F6;"> _________________________________________=
______<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"ma=
ilto:[email-masked]" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Sho=
[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none">Donate: <a shape=3D"rect" href=
=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/=
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 clear=3D"none">Archive: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipe=
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[email-masked]

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From: Arvid <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 09:39:17 -0500

My experience in Minnesota.

TL;DR; Had a reliable HVAC company install a Mitsubishi mini-split. YMMV.

I recently had a 24 x 36 building built behind the house. Lower level is 10ft high. It has a gambrel roof so there is a 12 x 36 x 9 upper level area. R30 in the walls and R40 in the roof. One 4 x 8 person door and one 8 x 9 garage door. The two long walls were framed with window air conditioner openings. No windows were actually installed but the exterior siding and interior walls could easily be modified by removing the insulation to create an opening for a window air conditioner. I am assuming it would have taken one or two days to convert the opening, install the window unit and seal everything back up again. I did all of the electrical in the building and had installed 220v 20amp outlets right next to both of the windowless openings in anticipation of window units.

Primary winter heat is provided by a natural gas boiler with in-floor radiant heat.

The "what size air conditioner?" needed to be addressed. Much research in the 9000 to 18000 BTU cooling capacity showed that 9000 are were more efficient than 12000, 12000 better than 15000, and 15000 better than 18000. My calculations suggested 12000 of cooling would do the trick.

In that capacity window units seemed to be anywhere from $400 to $900, with mini-splits being in the "considerably more" category. One point for the window units.

"What about efficiency?" I found several mini-splits in the 12000 size that were considerably more efficient than any similarly rated window unit. One point for the mini-split.

Next was to look at the possibility of using the heating capabilities. More calculations and it looked like the electrical power used by the mini-split would be less than the cost per BTU of natural gas until the outside temperature got down to about 35f. Yes, there are lots of winter days in Minnesota where the high for the day is less than 35f but there are also many spring and fall days where 35f is the low so it seemed like a reasonable solution. The 15000 and 18000 units would have provided more heat but the trade-off was less efficient cooling. 12000 still seemed to be the reasonable solution given the boiler as primary winter heat. Another point for the mini-split.

Finally, "DIY or have someone do it?" I had narrowed it down to a Mitsubishi 12000 mini-split. Certainly not the cheapest but I liked the reviews and both the heating and cooling efficiency. I looked at several on-line places that would provide all of the "stuff". The price came to around $2800 and I would have to come up with a way to evacuate the lines to make it all work. I then called the heating contractor that has serviced our home for the last 30 years and asked if they installed Mitsubishi (that is all they will install, which seemed to be a good sign) and how much would it cost. He came out and looked at the building and said "$3200". My response was "When?". "A few days after you have installed the electrical disconnect on the outside wall."

I had already installed the 220v for the window unit so it only took a day to drop the wiring down and out the wall to an external 30 amp disconnect. The following Monday the HVAC contractor and a helper showed up at 7am. My job was to point to where I wanted the indoor unit. They drilled a hole in the wall, pushed the lines and wiring thru the hole and mounted the inside unit. They brought a stand for the outdoor unit and put the unit on top of it. Routed the lines and wiring to the unit and placed a nice cover over that mess. Attached the unit to the disconnect I had installed and then proceeded to evacuate the lines. Shortly thereafter they were showing me how to use the remote control and handing me all the paperwork.

It was now 9:50am and they wanted to get some breakfast before their next job. I just started doing 'in the garage things" rather than 'to the garage' things.

Yes, I probably could have save a lot of money by going with very inexpensive (possibly 'disposable') window units but even with the 'already have the framing work done' it would have been a hassle and a couple of days work for me (to be repeated again in xx years). But I would not have had any heating ability (which has been working quite nicely this spring as the boiler has not come on for many weeks) and would be paying more during the cooling season based on the reduced efficiency of the window units.

[email-masked]

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From: Mike Rambour <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 12:20:19 -0700

Well, ok, you guys talked me into it...Mini-Split it is.

  I looked into the wiring and it won't be as hard as I thought, I had 
completely forgotten that I left a pull string in the attic (scissor 
joists, so not enough room to crawl up there).  I must have been smarter 
in my old days to leave that pull string there, it will make pulling 
12/3 pretty easy to the far corner of the garage and get a disconnect 
box there.

  Now the debate is self-install something like Mr. Cool DIY or have 
someone do it, but that is more a money debate than a shop-talk list 
debate :)

     mike

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From: Pat Horne <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 14:40:16 -0500

Mike, before you buy the 12-3, check to see if that’s really what you need. None of the a/c units I’ve wired required a neutral, so you may only need 12-2 w/ground. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity

On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Mike Rambour <[email-masked]> wrote:

 I looked into the wiring and it won't be as hard as I thought, I had completely forgotten that I left a pull string in the attic (scissor joists, so not enough room to crawl up there).  I must have been smarter in my old days to leave that pull string there, it will make pulling 12/3 pretty easy to the far corner of the garage and get a disconnect box there.

 Now the debate is self-install something like Mr. Cool DIY or have someone do it, but that is more a money debate than a shop-talk list debate :)

    mike

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From: Arvid <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:31:42 -0500

One final note ... be sure the 20 amps that 12ga wire is rated for will be enough. IIRC the Mitsubishi asked for a 30 amp circuit even though the running current was less than 20.

On 4/22/21 2:20 PM, Mike Rambour wrote:
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>

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