Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

From: Pat Horne <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:21:22 -0500

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Learned something new today! Thanks for the feedback. I didn=E2=80=99t reali=
ze that copper doesn=E2=80=99t behave the same as steel!

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne=20
We support Habitat for Humanity

On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <[email-masked]> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
This matches my understanding as well.  Brass and copper soften when quenche=
d.  Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.

> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Could be (the plot thickens):
>=20
> "Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to=20=

> bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and=20=

> mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You=20=

> can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame=20=

> that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way=20=

> to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and=20
> rapidly cooling it in water."
>=20
> https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> > Maybe you=E2=80=99re right & I=E2=80=99m wrong! Wouldn=E2=80=99t be the f=
irst time.
> >
> > Peace,
> > Pat
> >
> > Pat Horne
> > We support Habitat for Humanity
> >
> >
> > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <[email-masked]> wrote:
> >
> > =EF=BB=BFWell snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused=
 copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
> >
> > Thanks for the reply.
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> >> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
> >>
> >> Annealing requires slow cooling.
> >>
> >> Peace,
> >> Pat
> >>
> >> Pat Horne
> >> We support Habitat for Humanity
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <[email-masked]> wrote:
> >>
> >> =EF=BB=BF Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, pres=
umably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'che=
rry red?'
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
>=20
> [email-masked]
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arc=
hive
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinni=
[email-masked]
>=20

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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D Never offend people with style when you   =3D
=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Learned something new today! Thanks for the=
 feedback. I didn=E2=80=99t realize that copper doesn=E2=80=99t behave the s=
ame as steel!<br><br>Peace,<div>Pat</div><div><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Pat Horne=
&nbsp;<div>We support Habitat for Humanity</div><div><br></div></div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><br>On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis &lt;[email-masked]&=
gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr">This matc=
hes my understanding as well.&nbsp; Brass and copper soften when quenched.&n=
bsp; Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.<br></div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 A=
M Bob Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]=
et</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
Could be (the plot thickens):<br>
<br>
"Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to <br>=

bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and <br>=

mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You <br>=

can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame <br=
that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way <br=
to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and <br>
rapidly cooling it in water."<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:<br>
&gt; Maybe you=E2=80=99re right &amp; I=E2=80=99m wrong! Wouldn=E2=80=99t be=
 the first time.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Peace,<br>
&gt; Pat<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Pat Horne<br>
&gt; We support Habitat for Humanity<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@=
comcast.net" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =EF=BB=BFWell snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reuse=
d copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks for the reply.<br>
&gt; Bob<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; I thought quenching made the metal less soft.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Annealing requires slow cooling.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Peace,<br>
&gt;&gt; Pat<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Pat Horne<br>
&gt;&gt; We support Habitat for Humanity<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bspid=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =EF=BB=BF Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, p=
resumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated '=
cherry red?'<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Bob<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@auto=
x.team.net</a><br>
t=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
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"http://autox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://=
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<br>
lk/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team=
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<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gm=
ail_signature">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>=3D Never offend people with style w=
hen you&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D<br>=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown&nbsp;=
 =3D<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span></span=
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_______________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From: Pat Horne <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:43:48 -0500

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So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, it WOU=
LDN=E2=80=99T be a good choice.=20

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne=20

=EF=BB=BF

irst time.
hive
[email-masked]

--=20

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">So, referring back to the OP about using th=
e oven to anneal the bars, it WOULDN=E2=80=99T be a good choice.&nbsp;<div><=
br></div><div>Peace,</div><div>Pat<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Pat Horne&nbsp;<d=
iv>We support Habitat for Humanity</div><div><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><br>On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrot=
e:<br><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr">This matches my u=
nderstanding as well.&nbsp; Brass and copper soften when quenched.&nbsp; Ste=
el and Aluminum harden when quenched.<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob S=
pidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Could b=
e (the plot thickens):<br>
<br>
"Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to <br>=

></span><br></div></div></body></html>=

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[email-masked]

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---

From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:58:27 -0500

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The oven would work fine, you just need to add a quench as soon as possible
when you come out.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 10:43 AM Pat Horne <[email-masked]> wrote:

> So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, it
> WOULDN=E2=80=99T be a good choice.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
> This matches my understanding as well.  Brass and copper soften when
> quenched.  Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.
>
>> "Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to
>> bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and
>> mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You
>> can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame
>> that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way
>> to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and
>> > Maybe you=E2=80=99re right & I=E2=80=99m wrong! Wouldn=E2=80=99t be th=
e first time.
>> > =EF=BB=BFWell snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reus=
ed
>> >> =EF=BB=BF Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, pr=
esumably,
>> or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry
>> red?'
>> >>
>> >> Bob
>> >>
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>>
>>
>
> --
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>

--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D Never offend people with style when you   =3D
=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

--0000000000007fa43605ac5fcbcb
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">The oven would work fine, you just need to add a quench as=
 soon as possible when you come out.=C2=A0 <br></div><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 10:43=
 AM Pat Horne &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">patintexas@iclou=
d.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to=
 anneal the bars, it WOULDN=E2=80=99T be a good choice.=C2=A0<div><br></div=
><div>Peace,</div><div>Pat<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Pat Horne=C2=A0<div>We s=
upport Habitat for Humanity</div><div><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=
On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdinnis@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr">This matches my understanding as well=
.=C2=A0 Brass and copper soften when quenched.=C2=A0 Steel and Aluminum har=
den when quenched.<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Cou=
ld be (the plot thickens):<br>
<br>
&quot;Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you t=
o <br>
bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and <br=
mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You <br=
can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame <b=
r>
that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way <b=
r>
to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and <br>
rapidly cooling it in water.&quot;<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:<br>
&gt; Maybe you=E2=80=99re right &amp; I=E2=80=99m wrong! Wouldn=E2=80=99t b=
e the first time.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Peace,<br>
&gt; Pat<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Pat Horne<br>
&gt; We support Habitat for Humanity<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell=
@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =EF=BB=BFWell snap. I&#39;ve been doing it wrong all these years I&#39=
;ve reused copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks for the reply.<br>
&gt; Bob<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; I thought quenching made the metal less soft.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Annealing requires slow cooling.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Peace,<br>
&gt;&gt; Pat<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Pat Horne<br>
&gt;&gt; We support Habitat for Humanity<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bspi=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =EF=BB=BF Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water,=
 presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it&#39;s been h=
eated &#39;cherry red?&#39;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Bob<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net</a><br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a> <a href=
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<br>
alk/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.te=
am.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr">=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>=3D Never offend people with style when you=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=3D<br>=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown=C2=A0 =3D<br>=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span></spa=
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<span></span><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br=
>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
<br>=3D Never offend people with style when you=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D<br>=3D can =
offend with substance --- Sam Brown=C2=A0 =3D<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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From: Jack Brooks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 16:06:46 +0000

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From: Jack Brooks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 16:12:30 +0000

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From: Pat Horne <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 11:17:08 -0500

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Most self cleaning ovens have a lock that keeps them from opening at higher t=
emperatures.=20

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne=20

On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:58 AM, John Innis <[email-masked]> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
The oven would work fine, you just need to add a quench as soon as possible w=
hen you come out. =20

> So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, it W=
OULDN=E2=80=99T be a good choice.=20
> This matches my understanding as well.  Brass and copper soften when quenc=
hed.  Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.

>> > Maybe you=E2=80=99re right & I=E2=80=99m wrong! Wouldn=E2=80=99t be the=
 first time.
>> > =EF=BB=BFWell snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reuse=
d copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
>> >> =EF=BB=BF Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, pre=
sumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'ch=
erry red?'
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/ar=
chive
>>=20
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinn=
[email-masked]
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
hive
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patint=
[email-masked]

--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Most self cleaning ovens have a lock that k=
eeps them from opening at higher temperatures.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Peac=
e,</div><div>Pat<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Pat Horne&nbsp;<div>We support Habi=
tat for Humanity</div><div><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Aug 8, 20=
20, at 10:58 AM, John Innis &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr">The oven would work fine, you just n=
eed to add a quench as soon as possible when you come out.&nbsp; <br></div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, A=
ug 8, 2020 at 10:43 AM Pat Horne &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">So, referring back to the OP about us=
ing the oven to anneal the bars, it WOULDN=E2=80=99T be a good choice.&nbsp;=
<div><br></div><div>Peace,</div><div>Pat<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Pat Horne&n=
bsp;<div>We support Habitat for Humanity</div><div><br></div></div><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><br>On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdin=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr">This matches my understanding a=
s well.&nbsp; Brass and copper soften when quenched.&nbsp; Steel and Aluminu=
m harden when quenched.<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"=
ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Coul=
d be (the plot thickens):<br>
<br>
"Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to <br>=

</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr">=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D<br>=3D Never offend people with style when you&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D<br>=
=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown&nbsp; =3D<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Sho=
[email-masked]</a></span><br><span>Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team=
.net/donate.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a></spa=
n><br><span>Suggested annual donation &nbsp;$12.96</span><br><span>Archive: <=
a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" target=3D"_blank">http://=
www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a> <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archiv=
e" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive</a></span><br><span></spa=
n><br><span>Unsubscribe/Manage: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/opt=
ions/shop-talk/[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.ne=
t/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a></span><br><span></span=
><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>=3D Never of=
fend people with style when you&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D<br>=3D can offend with subst=
ance --- Sam Brown&nbsp; =3D<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div>
</div></div></body></html>=

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[email-masked]

--===============7045356276198611313==--

---

From: Donald H Locker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 13:13:33 -0400

The temperature that the copper reaches is controlled by the rate at
which the heat escapes it vs the rate at which heat is added to it, and
finally by the temperature of the flame.

An oxy-fuel torch adds heat quickly, so the rate at which it is lost is
less of a problem. Propane/air is not as hot as oxy/fuel, but they're
both plenty hot enough.

I would expect a propane torch to do OK as long as your copper bar is
reasonably well insulated from the outside world - how about [nearly]
burying it in vermiculite? Add heat in the middle with the rest of the
bar pretty well buried and it should get reasonably hot throughout. You
could use a Tempil Stik or an IR thermometer near the ends to see when
it has heated sufficiently.

It would be easy enough to then pick up the bar with pliers or tongs and
dunk it.

At least I'd try that before tempting the fates with Mrs. Jack's oven.
Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2020-08-08 12:06 p.m., Jack Brooks wrote:
> I disagree to some extent on the water/oil quench vs. air cool, from
> text and experience.  I’ve done both with oil pan drain plug washers and
> while there may be a difference, it’s minor making the two methods
> interchangeable in my experience, especially if I am trying to go from
> half hard to a softer condition.   A quench is the ultimate way to
> soften, but just getting it up to temperature makes a huge difference in
> hardness.
> 
>  
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20ferrous,quickly%20by%20quenching%20in%20water.
> 
> https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper#:~:text=You%20quench%20carbon%20steel%20to,the%20resulting%20crystalline%20structure%20is.&text=So%2C%20to%20anneal%20a%20hardened,heating%20it%20red%20anneals%20it.
> 
> The question remains, lacking an Oxy torch, thoughts on the clean cycle
> of a home over or any other suggestions?  I may talk with my body guy
> about using his Oxy torch.  That was a good suggestion.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jack
> 
> *From:* Shop-talk <[email-masked]> *On Behalf Of *Pat
> Horne
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:44 AM
> *To:* John Innis <[email-masked]>
> *Cc:* shop-talk <[email-masked]>
> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
> 
> WOULDN’T be a good choice. 
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> Pat Horne 
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <[email-masked]
> <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <[email-masked]
> <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
> 
>     > Maybe you’re right & I’m wrong! Wouldn’t be the first time.
>     >
>     > Peace,
>     > Pat
>     >
>     > Pat Horne
>     > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <[email-masked]
>     <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
>     >
>     > Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused
>     >> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <[email-masked]
>     <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >>  Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water,
>     presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been
>     heated 'cherry red?'
>     >>
>     >> Bob
>     >>
> 
>     [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
> =================================
> = Never offend people with style when you   =
> = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
> =================================
> 
> [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
> 

[email-masked]

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

---

From: Donald H Locker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 13:14:06 -0400

[email-masked]

---

From: Jack Brooks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 17:17:19 +0000

Donald, good point.  I can work on insulating better.

Thanks,

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald H Locker <[email-masked]> 
Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 10:14 AM
To: Jack Brooks <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

The temperature that the copper reaches is controlled by the rate at which the heat escapes it vs the rate at which heat is added to it, and finally by the temperature of the flame.

An oxy-fuel torch adds heat quickly, so the rate at which it is lost is less of a problem. Propane/air is not as hot as oxy/fuel, but they're both plenty hot enough.

I would expect a propane torch to do OK as long as your copper bar is reasonably well insulated from the outside world - how about [nearly] burying it in vermiculite? Add heat in the middle with the rest of the bar pretty well buried and it should get reasonably hot throughout. You could use a Tempil Stik or an IR thermometer near the ends to see when it has heated sufficiently.

It would be easy enough to then pick up the bar with pliers or tongs and dunk it.

At least I'd try that before tempting the fates with Mrs. Jack's oven.
Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail /\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2020-08-08 12:06 p.m., Jack Brooks wrote:
> text and experience.  I’ve done both with oil pan drain plug washers 
> and while there may be a difference, it’s minor making the two methods 
> soften, but just getting it up to temperature makes a huge difference 
> in hardness.
> 
>  
> 
> The question remains, lacking an Oxy torch, thoughts on the clean 
> cycle of a home over or any other suggestions?  I may talk with my 
> body guy about using his Oxy torch.  That was a good suggestion.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jack
> 
> *From:* Shop-talk <[email-masked]> *On Behalf Of 
> *Pat Horne
> So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, 
> it WOULDN’T be a good choice.
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> Pat Horne
> = Never offend people with style when you   = = can offend with 
> substance --- Sam Brown  = =================================
> 
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation  
> $12.96
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation  
> $12.96
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
> 

[email-masked]

---

From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 12:56:59 -0500

--===============6187623345670590641==

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Another option for you, find someone that has a kiln.  I have an old
electric kiln that I got for free because it was old.  I added a simple
thermocouple temperature gauge to it and it works great for annealing and
heat treating small parts.  My next project is actually adding solid-state
relays and a PID controller so I can do some more precise temperature
control.  If you do this, or use a modified oven, do be careful.  There is
a reason that oven doors lock at high temperatures.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 11:12 AM Jack Brooks <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I agree, but I=E2=80=99m not sure at what temperature the oven will relea=
se the
> latch and I=E2=80=99m not modifying the latch on a new Inductive range. <=
grin>
> Thought about it on the old over for making high temperature 900=C2=B0F p=
izza,
> but that was the old oven=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6
>
>
>
> The path forward using the oven is probably going to be the first step.
> If it gets me at or close to what I need, I will be done.  If not, I will
> get with my body guy and see if I can use his Oxy torch.
>
>
>
> Thanks everyone,
>
>
>
> Jack
>
>
>
> *From:* Shop-talk <[email-masked]> * On Behalf Of *John
> Innis
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:58 AM
> *To:* Pat Horne <[email-masked]>
> The oven would work fine, you just need to add a quench as soon as
> possible when you come out.
>
>
>
 first time.
> > =EF=BB=BFWell snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reuse=
d copper,
> mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
> >
> > Thanks for the reply.
> > Bob
> >
> >
sumably,

--=20

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Another option for you, find someone that has a kiln.=C2=
=A0 I have an old electric kiln that I got for free because it was old.=C2=
=A0 I added a simple thermocouple temperature gauge to it and it works grea=
t for annealing and heat treating small parts.=C2=A0 My next project is act=
ually adding solid-state relays and a PID controller so I can do some more =
precise temperature control.=C2=A0 If you do this, or use a modified oven, =
do be careful.=C2=A0 There is a reason that oven doors lock at high tempera=
tures. <br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_attr">On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 11:12 AM Jack Brooks &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_5791100288874595637WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">I agree, but I=E2=80=99m not su=
re at what temperature the oven will release the latch and I=E2=80=99m not =
modifying the latch on a new Inductive range. &lt;grin&gt;=C2=A0 Thought ab=
out
 it on the old over for making high temperature 900=C2=B0F pizza, but that =
was the old oven=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">The path forward using the oven=
 is probably going to be the first step.=C2=A0 If it gets me at or close to=
 what I need, I will be done.=C2=A0 If not, I will get with
 my body guy and see if I can use his Oxy torch.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Thanks everyone,<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Jack<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;borde=
r-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0in 0in"=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shop-ta=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]=
et</a>&gt; <b>
On Behalf Of </b>John Innis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Pat Horne &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D=
"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The oven would work fine, you just need to add a que=
nch as soon as possible when you come out.=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 10:43 AM Pat Horne &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rg=
b(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium=
 medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to=
 anneal the bars, it WOULDN=E2=80=99T be a good choice.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Peace,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">Pat<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Pat Horne=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We support Habitat for Humanity<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdinnis@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=EF=BB=BF<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This matches my understanding as well.=C2=A0 Brass a=
nd copper soften when quenched.=C2=A0 Steel and Aluminum harden when quench=
ed.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</=
a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rg=
b(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium=
 medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">Could be (the plot thic=
kens):<br>
<br>
&quot;Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you t=
o <br>
bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and <br=
can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame <b=
r>
that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way <b=
r>
to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and <br>
rapidly cooling it in water.&quot;<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:<br>
&gt; Maybe you=E2=80=99re right &amp; I=E2=80=99m wrong! Wouldn=E2=80=99t b=
e the first time.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Peace,<br>
&gt; Pat<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Pat Horne<br>
&gt; We support Habitat for Humanity<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell=
@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =EF=BB=BFWell snap. I&#39;ve been doing it wrong all these years I&#39=
;ve reused copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks for the reply.<br>
&gt; Bob<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; I thought quenching made the metal less soft.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Annealing requires slow cooling.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Peace,<br>
&gt;&gt; Pat<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Pat Horne<br>
&gt;&gt; We support Habitat for Humanity<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bspi=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =EF=BB=BF Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water,=
 presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it&#39;s been h=
eated &#39;cherry red?&#39;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Bob<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net</a><br>
//www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a>
<a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.te=
am.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
alk/[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><u></u=
><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<br>
-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
=3D Never offend people with style when you=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D<br>
=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown=C2=A0 =3D<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">_______________________=
________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net</a><br>
//www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a>
<a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.te=
am.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
alk/[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<br>
-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
=3D Never offend people with style when you=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D<br>
=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown=C2=A0 =3D<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net</a><br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a> <a href=
=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://autox.team.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
alk/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.te=
am.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_signature">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>=3D Never offend people with =
style when you=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D<br>=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Bro=
wn=C2=A0 =3D<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div>

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[email-masked]

--===============6187623345670590641==--

---

From: Jack Brooks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 18:16:42 +0000

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	boundary="_000_BN6PR06MB3140FFBB9D360C544B20F3C6A8460BN6PR06MB3140namp_"

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[email-masked]

--===============0422260934275499104==--

---

From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 13:36:27 -0500

--===============8990755931500182211==

--0000000000009389e905ac6200e1
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Sure be glad to have more info. I have done a lot of arduino projects, but
have been finding the PID theory a bit of a tough nut to crack.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:19 PM Jack Brooks <[email-masked]> wrote:

> John,
>
>
>
> Agreed.  I built a PID Controller setup for my smoker using a Inkjet
> 106-RL.  It=E2=80=99s a great way to go.  Now I just need to find a kiln.=
  I can
> provide some good info if you are still working on it.
>
>
>
> Yes, aware of issues opening a 900=C2=B0F oven.
>
>
>
> Jack
>
>
>
> *From:* John Innis <[email-masked]>
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 8, 2020 10:57 AM
> *To:* Jack Brooks <[email-masked]>
> heat treating small parts.  My next project is actually adding solid-stat=
e
> control.  If you do this, or use a modified oven, do be careful.  There i=
s
se the
grin>
izza,
> *From:* Shop-talk <[email-masked]> *On Behalf Of *John
> Innis
 first time.
d copper,
sumably,

--=20

--0000000000009389e905ac6200e1
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Sure be glad to have more info. I have done a lot of ardui=
no projects, but have been finding the PID theory a bit of a tough nut to c=
rack.<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma=
il_attr">On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:19 PM Jack Brooks &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:J=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-2762930209784427355WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">John,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Agreed.=C2=A0 I built a PID Con=
troller setup for my smoker using a Inkjet 106-RL.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s a gre=
at way to go.=C2=A0 Now I just need to find a kiln.=C2=A0 I can provide som=
e
 good info if you are still working on it. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Yes, aware of issues opening a =
900=C2=B0F oven.=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Jack<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;borde=
r-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0in 0in"=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> John Innis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdinni=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 8, 2020 10:57 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jack Brooks &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_=
blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Another option for you, find someone that has a kiln=
.=C2=A0 I have an old electric kiln that I got for free because it was old.=
=C2=A0 I added a simple thermocouple temperature gauge to it and it works g=
reat for annealing and heat treating small parts.=C2=A0
 My next project is actually adding solid-state relays and a PID controller=
 so I can do some more precise temperature control.=C2=A0 If you do this, o=
r use a modified oven, do be careful.=C2=A0 There is a reason that oven doo=
rs lock at high temperatures.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 11:12 AM Jack Brooks &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt=
; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rg=
b(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium=
 medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">I agree, but I=E2=80=99m not su=
re at what temperature the oven will release the latch and I=E2=80=99m not =
modifying
 the latch on a new Inductive range. &lt;grin&gt;=C2=A0 Thought about it on=
 the old over for making high temperature 900=C2=B0F pizza, but that was th=
e old oven=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">The path forward using the oven=
 is probably going to be the first step.=C2=A0 If it gets me at or close
 to what I need, I will be done.=C2=A0 If not, I will get with my body guy =
and see if I can use his Oxy torch.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Thanks everyone,</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Jack</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;p=
adding:3pt 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shop-ta=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]=
et</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Innis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Pat Horne &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D=
"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The oven would work fine, you just need to add a que=
nch as soon as possible when you come out.=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 10:43 AM Pat Horne &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium =
medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-c=
olor:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to=
 anneal the bars, it WOULDN=E2=80=99T be a good choice.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Peace,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">Pat<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Pat Horne=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We support Habitat for Humanity<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdinnis@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=EF=BB=BF<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This matches my understanding as well.=C2=A0 Brass a=
nd copper soften when quenched.=C2=A0 Steel and Aluminum harden when quench=
ed.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</=
a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium =
medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-c=
olor:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">Could be (the plot thic=
kens):<br>
<br>
&quot;Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you t=
o <br>
bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and <br=
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>

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---

From: Jack Brooks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 18:59:13 +0000

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From: Donald H Locker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 17:51:39 -0400

PID theory can be very obscure. PID implementation is rather simple.
(And I hope I don't have _too_ many typos below; it is not code-checked,
but the basics are there.)

Note that in the pseudo-code below, Error terms are in units of the
controlled variable (e.g. degF or furlongsPerFortnight or PSIG); the
Correction and Output values are in per cent. Heaters usually only add
heat, so the output would range from 0% to 100%; something like a motor
might have a reversible controller and could use -100% to +100% as its
control, so the MIN_OUTPUT would be changed to be suitable.

The entire PID algorithm is fairly simple; most of the control should
usually be Proportional - bigger error -> bigger correction. The
Integral correction is to help correct for long-term errors, while the
Differential correction helps damp oscillations of the Proportional
correction and tends to reduce overshoot for quick changes.

To "tune" the PID, start with Ki and Kd set to 0.0, and set Kp to a
value that is equal to your maximum output error / 100. For example, if
you want the controlled variable to be no worse than 10F, Kp would be
0.1 to start. (This is probably way too large because it means the the
heaters will be on 100% if the temperature is more than 10F off, but
it's a place to start.) By increasing or decreasing Kp (I usually adjust
by a factor of 1.4 each time, so every two changes give a factor of 2),
you'll find a value that gives stable output, though the controlled
variable will probably not be very close to you desired set point. If Kp
is too large, the output (and your controlled variable) will oscillate
at the "natural frequency" of the system you are controlling.

Now comes a little magic - add some Ki (start with about 10% of Kp) and
watch the control. It will (eventually) get the controlled variable very
close to your set point, but it might be slow. If Ki is too large, you
will get slow oscillations - time to dial it back until those stop. If
it seems sluggish, increase Ki until you see the oscillations, then back
off again until it seems stable.

Do a similar tweaking with Kd, though if the Kd is too large, the output
will be "twitchy" - kind of like fast oscillations. This is harder to
describe, but I hope that gives you the concept.

============== pseudo code below ================

const double MAX_OUTPUT = 100.0; // output is in per cent
const double MIN_OUTPUT = 0.0; // reversible motors could use -100.0
const double tPeriod = 0.100; // we'll use 100ms for example

static double IntegratedError;

// Tuning settings:
double Kp; // = Proportional "gain" (a settable constant)
double Ki; // = Integral "gain" (another settable constant)
double Kd; // = Differential "gain" (one more settable constant)

// Initialise everything except the gains to 0.0 at the beginning
// of time, then get the SetPoint, and the ActualValue,
// call the PID_loop() function and send the return value to the output

double PID_loop (double SetPoint, double ActualValue)
{
   // During the operation, the following calculations are performed at
   // regular intervals (1sec or 100ms or faster, depending on how fast
   // the system you are controlling)

   double PreviousError = CurrentError;

   double CurrentError = SetPoint - ActualValue;
   IntegratedError = IntegratedError + CurrentError;

   ProportionalCorrection = Kp * CurrentError;
   IntegralCorrection = Ki * IntegralError;
   // make sure the Integrator doesn't continue to + or -infinity!
   // (IntegratedError is the only variable with long-term memory
   //  so it's the only one with this particular patchup)
   if (IntegralCorrection > MAX_OUTPUT)
   {
      IntegralCorrection = MAX_OUTPUT;
      IntegratedError = MAX_OUTPUT/Ki;
   }
   else if (IntegralCorrection < MIN_OUTPUT)
   {
      IntegralCorrection = MIN_OUTPUT;
      IntegratedError = MIN_OUTPUT/Ki;
   }

   DifferentialError = CurrentError - PreviousError;
   DifferentialCorrection = Kd * DifferentialError;

   NetCorrection = ProportionalCorrection
                 + IntegralCorrection
                 + DifferentialCorrection;

   // make sure we don't return invalid corrections
   if (NetCorrection > MAX_OUTPUT) NetCorrection = MAX_OUTPUT;
   if (NetCorrection < MIN_OUTPUT) NetCorrection = MIN_OUTPUT;

   return NetCorrection; // this is the PID output
}
============== end of pseudo code ================

On 2020-08-08 2:36 p.m., John Innis wrote:
> Sure be glad to have more info. I have done a lot of arduino projects,
> but have been finding the PID theory a bit of a tough nut to crack.
> 
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:19 PM Jack Brooks <[email-masked]
> <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
> 
>     John,____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     106-RL.  It’s a great way to go.  Now I just need to find a kiln.  I
>     can provide some good info if you are still working on it. ____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     Yes, aware of issues opening a 900°F oven.  ____
> 

[snip]

[email-masked]

---

From: Donald H Locker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 18:01:48 -0400

Oops; DifferentialCorrection should be (Kd * DifferentialError)/tPeriod;
but it's not a big deal, since tPeriod should be constant anyway.

Donald.

[email-masked]

---

From: Jack Brooks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 22:50:49 +0000

Insulation - BINGO!  Great thought Donald!

I underestimated copper's heat transmission rate.  Using propane, I could not get a 1/8 x 1 inch x 8 inch bar to get to glow with the bottom of the bar clamped in a vice.  I decided to try "Insulating". 

I laid a 3 inch long copper bar (typical busbar length) across the teeth of two sections of a coarse hack saw blade clamped off to the side of my vice.  There is almost no contact between the copper bar and these supports, only across the tips of the teeth on the two halves of the hack saw blades, so maybe a dozen pinheads.  With this arrangement and with a partially-dark room, I could just barely see the red glow in the copper. After a quench, the copper bar was soft!

I now have a method.  Now I have to insure that I can clean up the contact surfaces well without affecting the flatness and I can go forward with softening the real busbars.

Thank you everyone for a fun adventure in learning,

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald H Locker <[email-masked]> 
Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 10:14 AM
To: Jack Brooks <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

[email-masked]

---

From: Donald H Locker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 19:02:18 -0400

Cool! (so to speak.) I would have thought more insulation would have
been required, but it sounds like that is sufficient.

Donald.

[snip]

[email-masked]

---

From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 09:20:34 -0500

> I laid a 3 inch long copper bar (typical busbar length) across the teeth of two sections of a coarse hack saw blade clamped off to the side of my vice.  There is almost no contact between the coppe…

That's a clever way of doing it.  A firebrick is the usual suface to
put things on while they're heated.  For a propane torch, you could
use a regular brick, or a cinderblock. They don't work with a welding
torch, because they explode.  Also, there's a surprising difference in
torch output.  A few years ago, I couldn't get a 1" copper fitting hot
enough to flow solder using the crappy propane torch I'd had for 20
years.   I bought a Bernzomatic TS-8000, at the advise of a plumber,
and it did it with out breaking a sweat.

> I now have a method.  Now I have to insure that I can clean up the contact surfaces well without affecting the flatness and I can go forward with softening the real busbars.

Sand paper or emery paper on glass will work well.

[email-masked]

---

From: Jack Brooks <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 00:21:55 +0000

David,

Thanks for the heads up on the Bernzomatic TS-8000.  I am using a 20+ year old all brass Bernzomatic head which has never let me down before, but it could be a contributing factor. It does put out a heck of a long beautiful blue flame though.

I chose to support the copper bars on the hack saw blade teeth because there is the least contact between the part and the support to wick away the heat. I was afraid that brickwork would absorb some of the heat.  I did unsuccessfully search my garage for some old refractory blanket. 

Cleaning - Good reminder about sandpaper on glass - Thanks.  I learned the "glass" trick when rebuilding a 1960 Triumph TR3 engine and took the crank thrust bearing down to the minimum specified gap by sanding a mismatched set of standard and oversized backing plates down on a piece of glass and also blueprinted the pump by reducing the pump rotor baseplate clearances on a sandpaper/glass setup. Great tip!

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]> 
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2020 7:21 AM
To: Jack Brooks <[email-masked]>; shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

> I laid a 3 inch long copper bar (typical busbar length) across the teeth of two sections of a coarse hack saw blade clamped off to the side of my vice.  There is almost no contact between the coppe…

That's a clever way of doing it.  A firebrick is the usual suface to put things on while they're heated.  For a propane torch, you could use a regular brick, or a cinderblock. They don't work with a welding torch, because they explode.  Also, there's a surprising difference in torch output.  A few years ago, I couldn't get a 1" copper fitting hot enough to flow solder using the crappy propane torch I'd had for 20
years.   I bought a Bernzomatic TS-8000, at the advise of a plumber,
and it did it with out breaking a sweat.

[email-masked]