Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Fog and Driving Lights

From: Neil Sherry via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 19:39:43 +0100

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Should work, I think. Just connect the first one to one light and the =
input of the second, then the other light to the output of the second =
relay.

What you are doing is effectively binary counting, stepping with each =
successive press of the switch:

00

01

10

11

00

=E2=80=A6

Although I would question why you would want fog & spot lights on =
together =E2=80=93 I wpuld have thought one or the other =E2=80=93 =
it=E2=80=99s either foggy and you want the wide flat short beam or clear =
and you want the narrow longer throw.

Neil

=20

=20

From: Shop-talk <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of Jeff =
Scarbrough via Shop-talk
Sent: 01 May 2020 01:56
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Fog and Driving Lights

=20

=20

=20

On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 5:47 PM Jim Stone via Shop-talk =

Does anyone know if such a relay exists?  If not, is there a simple =
circuit that would make a standard relay work as described?

=20

 If I recall correctly, a pair of old VW headlight dimming relays would =
be a period-correct solution.  Grounding the relay by pulling on the =
turn signal lever would flip-flop the relay between high beam and low =
beam.  Or, in your case, on or off.  The old relays had to have the =
headlights on to power them, you would need to figure out how to remind =
yourself to turn the lights off or use a relay on the ignition wire to =
control the power.

Or, use one of them high-falutin' electronic gadgets...

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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Should work, I think. Just connect =
the first one to one light and the input of the second, then the other =
light to the output of the second relay.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>What you =
are doing is effectively binary counting, stepping with each successive =
press of the switch:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>00<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>01<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>10<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>11<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>00<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Although I =
would question why you would want fog &amp; spot lights on together =
=E2=80=93 I wpuld have thought one or the other =E2=80=93 it=E2=80=99s =
either foggy and you want the wide flat short beam or clear and you want =
the narrow longer throw.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Neil<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Shop-talk =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeff =
Scarbrough via Shop-talk<br><b>Sent:</b> 01 May 2020 01:56<br><b>To:</b> =
[email-masked]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Shop-talk] Fog and =
Driving Lights<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 5:47 PM Jim Stone via Shop-talk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>Does =
anyone know if such a relay exists?&nbsp; If not, is there a simple =
circuit that would make a standard relay work as =
described?<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;If I recall correctly, a pair of old VW =
headlight dimming relays would be a period-correct solution.&nbsp; =
Grounding the relay by pulling on the turn signal lever would flip-flop =
the relay between high beam and low beam.&nbsp; Or, in your case, on or =
off.&nbsp; The old relays had to have the headlights on to power them, =
you would need to figure out how to remind yourself to turn the lights =
off or use a relay on the ignition wire to control&nbsp;the =
power.<br><br>Or, use one of them high-falutin' electronic =
gadgets...<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>
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_______________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

--===============1013195023403480746==--

---

From: Jim Stone via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 12:25:19 -0400

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Sorry for the long delay.  We lost internet service for a few days right =
after Neil sent this note and I forgot all about this when it returned.  =
Neil asked a really good question: =E2=80=9CWhy you would want fog & =
spot lights on together?=E2=80=9D

I am ashamed to admit that I never really gave this much serious =
thought.  My unsatisfactory answer is that there was a period switch =
available to do this and I wanted the functionality of that switch =
without the looks* of it.  However, now that Neil asks the question, I =
am left wondering if this is really worth it.  I live near the coast and =
a fog light would be nice, and there are times when I would love to have =
the addition of a driving light, but would I ever really want them both =
on?  I assume there must be a good reason, since 1) Wipac made the =
switches for a while and 2) they seem to be a desirable accessory for =
many classic car owners.  Can anyone here give me a good reason why I =
should go to the trouble of wiring the lights so that both can be used =
at once?

Thanks, and thanks to Neil for making me step back and consider this.

Jim

*Someone asked me for a photo of that switch outside the group =
discussion.  For anyone else who is interested, you can see pictures =
here: wipac rallyman switch =
<https://www.google.com/search?rls=3Den&source=3Duniv&tbm=3Disch&q=3Dwipac=
+rallyman+switch&client=3Dsafari&sa=3DX&ved=3D2ahUKEwiMgqbumqzpAhXKl3IEHd3=
SAxsQsAR6BAgKEAE&biw=3D1440&bih=3D728>

> On May 1, 2020, at 2:39 PM, Neil Sherry via Shop-talk =
Scarbrough via Shop-talk
> =20
>  If I recall correctly, a pair of old VW headlight dimming relays =
would be a period-correct solution.  Grounding the relay by pulling on =
the turn signal lever would flip-flop the relay between high beam and =
low beam.  Or, in your case, on or off.  The old relays had to have the =
headlights on to power them, you would need to figure out how to remind =
yourself to turn the lights off or use a relay on the ignition wire to =
control the power.
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk =
http://autox.team.net/archive
> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Sorry=
 for the long delay. &nbsp;We lost internet service for a few days right =
after Neil sent this note and I forgot all about this when it returned. =
&nbsp;Neil asked a really good question: =E2=80=9CW<span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">hy=
 you would want fog &amp; spot lights on together?</span><font =
face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
14.666666984558105px;" class=3D"">=E2=80=9D</span></font><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Calibri, =
sans-serif" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" =
class=3D"">I am ashamed to admit that I never really gave this =
much&nbsp;serious thought. &nbsp;My unsatisfactory answer is that there =
was a period switch available to do this and I wanted the functionality =
of that switch&nbsp;without the looks* of it. &nbsp;However, now that =
Neil asks the question, I am left wondering if this is really worth it. =
&nbsp;I live near the coast and a fog light would be nice, and there are =
times when I would love to have the addition of a driving light, but =
would I ever really want them both on? &nbsp;I assume there must be a =
good reason,&nbsp;since 1) Wipac made the switches for a while and 2) =
they seem to be a&nbsp;desirable accessory for many classic car owners. =
&nbsp;Can anyone here give me a good reason&nbsp;why I should go to the =
trouble of wiring the lights so that both can be used at =
once?</span></font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Calibri, =
sans-serif" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
14.666666984558105px;" class=3D"">Thanks, and&nbsp;thanks to Neil for =
making me step back and&nbsp;consider this.</span></font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Calibri, =
sans-serif" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" =
class=3D"">Jim<br class=3D""></span></font><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>*Someone asked me for a =
photo of that switch outside the group discussion. &nbsp;For anyone else =
who is interested, you can see pictures here:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.google.com/search?rls=3Den&amp;source=3Duniv&amp;tbm=3D=
isch&amp;q=3Dwipac+rallyman+switch&amp;client=3Dsafari&amp;sa=3DX&amp;ved=3D=
2ahUKEwiMgqbumqzpAhXKl3IEHd3SAxsQsAR6BAgKEAE&amp;biw=3D1440&amp;bih=3D728"=
 class=3D"">wipac rallyman switch</a></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On May 1, 2020, at 2:39 PM, =
Neil Sherry via Shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"font-weight: normal; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">Should work, I think. Just connect the first one to one light =
and the input of the second, then the other light to the output of the =
second relay.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"font-weight:=
 normal; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">What you are doing is =
effectively binary counting, stepping with each successive press of the =
switch:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"font-weight: =
normal; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">00<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"font-weight: normal; margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">01<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"font-weight: normal; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">10<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"font-weight: normal; margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">11<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"font-weight: normal; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">00<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"font-weight: normal; margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">=E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D""><font color=3D"#ff2600" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Although I =
would question why you would want fog &amp; spot lights on together =E2=80=
=93 I wpuld have thought one or the other =E2=80=93 it=E2=80=99s either =
foggy and you want the wide flat short beam or clear and you want the =
narrow longer throw.</b></font><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"font-weight: normal; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">Neil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"font-weight: normal; margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"font-weight: normal; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"font-weight: normal; =
border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: =
rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Shop-talk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Jeff Scarbrough =
via Shop-talk<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>01 May 2020 01:56<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Shop-talk] Fog and =
Driving Lights<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"font-weight: normal; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-weight: =
normal;"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at =
5:47 PM Jim Stone via Shop-talk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:=
 none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; =
margin-right: 0cm;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Does anyone know if such a relay exists?&nbsp; =
If not, is there a simple circuit that would make a standard relay work =
as described?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;If I recall correctly, a pair of old VW headlight =
dimming relays would be a period-correct solution.&nbsp; Grounding the =
relay by pulling on the turn signal lever would flip-flop the relay =
between high beam and low beam.&nbsp; Or, in your case, on or off.&nbsp; =
The old relays had to have the headlights on to power them, you would =
need to figure out how to remind yourself to turn the lights off or use =
a relay on the ignition wire to control&nbsp;the power.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Or, use one of them high-falutin' electronic gadgets...<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><span style=3D"caret-color:=
 rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
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[email-masked]

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---

From: Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 12:51:27 -0400

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On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:25 PM Jim Stone via Shop-talk <
[email-masked]> wrote:

>  Can anyone here give me a good reason why I should go to the trouble of
> wiring the lights so that both can be used at once?
>

I can't give you a /good/ reason, necessarily, but...

As I understand it, spot lamps throw a long-distance, focused point beam.
Fog lamps throw a low, wide beam focused closer to the vehicle.   It's
possible that in non-foggy conditions, someone like a rally car may want
the benefits of both of those types of illumination at the same time.  I
don't know whya single switch would be preferable to individual controls,
but maybe it saves space for stopwatches?

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:25 PM Jim =
Stone via Shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">shop-ta=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><font face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:14.6667px">=C2=A0Can anyo=
ne here give me a good reason=C2=A0why I should go to the trouble of wiring=
 the lights so that both can be used at once?</span></font></div><div><font=
 face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:14.6667px"></span></=
font></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I can&#39;t give you a /g=
ood/ reason, necessarily, but...</div><div><br></div><div>As I understand i=
t, spot lamps throw a long-distance, focused point beam.=C2=A0 Fog lamps th=
row a low, wide beam focused closer to the=C2=A0vehicle.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It&#39=
;s possible that in non-foggy conditions, someone like a rally car may want=
 the benefits of both of those types of illumination at the=C2=A0same time.=
=C2=A0 I don&#39;t know whya=C2=A0single switch would be preferable to indi=
vidual controls, but maybe it saves space for stopwatches?</div><div><br></=
div><div>Jeff Scarbrough</div><div>Corrosion Acres, Ga.</div></div></div>

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[email-masked]

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