Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Quick welding question- It's ok to use an 100% argon tank on it's side, correct?

From: John Innis via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 07:42:35 -0500

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I have done this before without issue.  BUT if you lay a high pressure
bottle down without a transport cap on it, you need a safety cage to
protect the valve.  Mythbusters demonstrated what happened if the valve
gets knocked off when one of these is in a horizontal position, so probably
a good idea to take precautions.  Most of the ones I have seen are just an
oversized transport cap with open sides.  The one I really liked was the
version they use on nitrogen bottles at race tracks.  It has an oversized
square cage that attaches to the bottle.  This not only protects the valve,
it also prevents the bottle from rolling around when it is on it's side.

On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 7:27 AM eric--- via Shop-talk <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> I just wanted to double check that  it's ok to use an 100% argon tank on
> it's side.  Do I have that right?
>
> Thanks
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt?_______________________________________________
>
> [email-masked]
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= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I have done this before without issue.=C2=A0 BUT if you la=
y a high pressure bottle down without a transport cap on it, you need a saf=
ety cage to protect the valve.=C2=A0 Mythbusters demonstrated what happened=
 if the valve gets knocked off when one of these is in a horizontal positio=
n, so probably a good idea to take precautions.=C2=A0 Most of the ones I ha=
ve seen are just an oversized transport cap with open sides.=C2=A0 The one =
I really liked was the version they use on nitrogen bottles at race tracks.=
=C2=A0 It has an oversized square cage that attaches to the bottle.=C2=A0 T=
his not only protects the valve, it also prevents the bottle from rolling a=
round when it is on it&#39;s side.=C2=A0 <br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 7:27 AM=
 eric--- via Shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">shop=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">I just wanted to d=
ouble check that =C2=A0it&#39;s
ok to use an 100% argon tank on it&#39;s side.=C2=A0 Do I have that right?<=
/font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Thanks</font>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
<br>
&quot;Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a ratio=
nal
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory.&quot; Ralph
Waldo Emerson <br>
-Who is John Galt?</font>_______________________________________________<br=
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
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et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
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From: Bob Spidell via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 06:36:12 -0700

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 From the textbook used in my JC welding class, 'Modern Welding,' 11th 
Edition:

"Gas cylinders should always be stored and used in an upright position."

No explanation given, but it was in safety-related text printed in red.  
I wouldn't be comfortable using the bottle laying flat; if nothing else 
the pressure and flow gauges--esp. the 'bubble' type flowmeter--may have 
issues.

Bob

On 5/8/2020 5:25 AM, eric--- via Shop-talk wrote:
> I just wanted to double check that  it's ok to use an 100% argon tank 
> on it's side.  Do I have that right?
>
> Thanks
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a 
> rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your 
> territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt?
>

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    From the textbook used in my JC welding class, 'Modern Welding,'
    11th Edition:<br>
    <br>
    "Gas cylinders should always be stored and used in an upright
    position."<br>
    <br>
    No explanation given, but it was in safety-related text printed in
    red.  I wouldn't be comfortable using the bottle laying flat; if
    nothing else the pressure and flow gauges--esp. the 'bubble' type
    flowmeter--may have issues.<br>
    <br>
    Bob<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/8/2020 5:25 AM, eric--- via
      Shop-talk wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      <font size="2" face="sans-serif">I just wanted to double check
        that  it's
        ok to use an 100% argon tank on it's side.  Do I have that
        right?</font>
      <br>
      <br>
      <font size="2" face="sans-serif">Thanks</font>
      <br>
      <font size="2" face="sans-serif"><br>
        <br>
        "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a
        rational
        being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory."
        Ralph
        Waldo Emerson <br>
        -Who is John Galt?</font>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader">
      </fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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[email-masked]

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From: Arvid via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 09:50:15 -0500

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My understanding of the "vertical position" was based on acetylene tanks. Most other tanks are 100% gas but IIRC acetylene is partially a liquid and therefore laying it on it's side would not provide "just the gas" that would be at the top of a vertical tank to come out.

*Acetylene*gas is mixed in*liquid*acetone for safe storage and usage. Acetone in*acetylene cylinders*helps stabilize the gas making it non-reactive within the*cylinder*. In this process,*acetylene*is dissolved in*liquid*acetone under high pressure. The*cylinder*is then filled with porous material like firebrick.

Arvid

On 5/8/20 8:36 AM, Bob Spidell via Shop-talk wrote:
> From the textbook used in my JC welding class, 'Modern Welding,' 11th Edition:
>
> No explanation given, but it was in safety-related text printed in red.  I wouldn't be comfortable using the bottle laying flat; if nothing else the pressure and flow gauges--esp. the 'bubble' type flowmeter--may have issues.
>
> Bob
>
>> I just wanted to double check that  it's ok to use an 100% argon tank on it's side.  Do I have that right?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson
>> -Who is John Galt?
>>
>
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>

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    <p>My understanding of the "vertical position" was based on
      acetylene tanks. Most other tanks are 100% gas but IIRC acetylene
      is partially a liquid and therefore laying it on it's side would
      not provide "just the gas" that would be at the top of a vertical
      tank to come out.</p>
    <p><b style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Roboto, arial,
        sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
        font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
        letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left;
        text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
        widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
        background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
        initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Acetylene</b><span
        style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Roboto, arial,
        sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
        font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
        font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
        text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
        white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
        -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
        255); text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
        initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><span> </span>gas
        is mixed in<span> </span></span><b style="color: rgb(34, 34,
        34); font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;
        font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
        font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
        text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
        white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
        -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
        255); text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
        initial;">liquid</b><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);
        font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;
        font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
        font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
        normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px;
        text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
        word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
        background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
        initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
        !important; float: none;"><span> </span>acetone for safe storage
        and usage. Acetone in<span> </span></span><b style="color:
        rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif;
        font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
        normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
        orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
        none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
        -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
        255); text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
        initial;">acetylene cylinders</b><span style="color: rgb(34, 34,
        34); font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;
        font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
        font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
        normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px;
        text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
        word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
        background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
        initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
        !important; float: none;"><span> </span>helps stabilize the gas
        making it non-reactive within the<span> </span></span><b
        style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Roboto, arial,
        sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
        font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
        letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left;
        text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
        widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
        background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
        initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">cylinder</b><span
        style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Roboto, arial,
        sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
        font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
        font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
        text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
        white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
        -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
        255); text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
        initial; display: inline !important; float: none;">. In this
        process,<span> </span></span><b style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);
        font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;
        font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
        font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
        text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
        white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
        -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
        255); text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
        initial;">acetylene</b><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);
        font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;
        font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
        font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
        normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px;
        text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
        word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
        background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
        initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
        !important; float: none;"><span> </span>is dissolved in<span> </span></span><b
        style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Roboto, arial,
        sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
        font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
        letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left;
        text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
        widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
        background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
        initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">liquid</b><span
        style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Roboto, arial,
        sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
        font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
        font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
        text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
        white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
        -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
        255); text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
        initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><span> </span>acetone
        under high pressure. The<span> </span></span><b style="color:
        rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif;
        font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
        normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
        orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
        none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
        -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
        255); text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
        initial;">cylinder</b><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);
        font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;
        font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
        font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
        normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px;
        text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
        word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
        background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
        initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
        !important; float: none;"><span> </span>is then filled with
        porous material like firebrick.</span></p>
    <p> Arvid<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/8/20 8:36 AM, Bob Spidell via
      Shop-talk wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      From the textbook used in my JC welding class, 'Modern Welding,'
      11th Edition:<br>
      <br>
      "Gas cylinders should always be stored and used in an upright
      position."<br>
      <br>
      No explanation given, but it was in safety-related text printed in
      red.  I wouldn't be comfortable using the bottle laying flat; if
      nothing else the pressure and flow gauges--esp. the 'bubble' type
      flowmeter--may have issues.<br>
      <br>
      Bob<br>
      <br>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/8/2020 5:25 AM, eric--- via
        Shop-talk wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:[email-masked]">
        <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
          charset=windows-1252">
        <font size="2" face="sans-serif">I just wanted to double check
          that  it's ok to use an 100% argon tank on it's side.  Do I
          have that right?</font> <br>
        <br>
        <font size="2" face="sans-serif">Thanks</font> <br>
        <font size="2" face="sans-serif"><br>
          <br>
          "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as
          a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of
          your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson <br>
          -Who is John Galt?</font> <br>
        <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"> </fieldset>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________

<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>
Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://autox.team.net/archive">http://autox.team.net/archive</a>

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From: Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 11:19:57 -0400

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On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 10:55 AM Arvid via Shop-talk <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> *Acetylene* gas is mixed in *liquid* acetone for safe storage and usage.
> Acetone in *acetylene cylinders* helps stabilize the gas making it
> non-reactive within the *cylinder*. In this process, *acetylene* is
> dissolved in *liquid* acetone under high pressure. The *cylinder* is then
> filled with porous material like firebrick.
> <http://autox.team.net/archive>

As they say, "Nature is metal AF."   Who would rationally think that
dissolving something in acetone would make it less dangerous?

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 10:55 AM Arvid=
 via Shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">shop-talk@au=
tox.team.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div>
    <p><b style=3D"font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Acet=
ylene</b><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"=
>=C2=A0gas
        is mixed in=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-s=
erif;font-size:16px">liquid</b><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto,arial,sans=
-serif;font-size:16px">=C2=A0acetone for safe storage
        and usage. Acetone in=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"font-family:Roboto,ar=
ial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">acetylene cylinders</b><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">=C2=A0helps stabilize the gas
        making it non-reactive within the=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">cylinder</b><span style=3D"font-=
family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">. In this
        process,=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-seri=
f;font-size:16px">acetylene</b><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto,arial,sans=
-serif;font-size:16px">=C2=A0is dissolved in=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"font-f=
amily:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">liquid</b><span style=3D"font=
-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">=C2=A0acetone
        under high pressure. The=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"font-family:Roboto=
,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">cylinder</b><span style=3D"font-family:Ro=
boto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">=C2=A0is then filled with
        porous material like firebrick.</span></p></div><a href=3D"http://a=
utox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"></a></blockquot=
e><div>As they say, &quot;Nature is metal AF.&quot;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Who would r=
ationally think that dissolving something in acetone would make it less dan=
gerous?</div></div></div>

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---

From: David Scheidt via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 17:31:37 -0500

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> On May 8, 2020, at 10:19, Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk <[email-masked]=
eam.net> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 10:55 AM Arvid via Shop-talk <[email-masked]=
.net> wrote:
>> Acetylene gas is mixed in liquid acetone for safe storage and usage. Acet=
one in acetylene cylinders helps stabilize the gas making it non-reactive wi=
thin the cylinder. In this process, acetylene is dissolved in liquid acetone=
 under high pressure. The cylinder is then filled with porous material like f=
irebrick.
>>=20
> As they say, "Nature is metal AF."   Who would rationally think that disso=
lving something in acetone would make it less dangerous?

Since acetylene explodes at about 15 psi, dissolving it inacetone is clearly=
 a great idea.=20=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br>On May 8, 2020, at 10:19, Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 10:55 AM Arvid via Shop-talk &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

  <div>
    <p><b style="font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Acetylene</b><span style="font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">&nbsp;gas
        is mixed in&nbsp;</span><b style="font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">liquid</b><span style="font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">&nbsp;acetone for safe storage
        and usage. Acetone in&nbsp;</span><b style="font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">acetylene cylinders</b><span style="font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">&nbsp;helps stabilize the gas
        making it non-reactive within the&nbsp;</span><b style="font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">cylinder</b><span style="font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">. In this
        process,&nbsp;</span><b style="font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">acetylene</b><span style="font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">&nbsp;is dissolved in&nbsp;</span><b style="font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">liquid</b><span style="font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">&nbsp;acetone
        under high pressure. The&nbsp;</span><b style="font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">cylinder</b><span style="font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">&nbsp;is then filled with
        porous material like firebrick.</span></p></div><a href="http://autox.team.net/archive" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"></a></blockquote><div>As they say, "Nature is metal AF."&nbsp; &nbsp;Who would rationally think that dissolving something in acetone would make it less dangerous?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><br><div>Since acetylene explodes at about 15 psi, dissolving it inacetone is clearly a great idea.&nbsp;</div></body></html>
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[email-masked]

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