Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question

From: Benjamin Zwissler via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:16:10 -0400

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Diesel fuel goes bad over time.  Just like gasoline the fuel is not
stable.  There are ways to test it but to my knowledge it means sending a
sample to a lab.  Besides sludge and solids accumulating there's some green
mold/fungus that grows in it.  They make fuel conditioner with biocide to
make it last longer but a "few years" is longer than any of them would say
they would protect fuel. Your symptom sounds like a plugged fuel filter.
If you don't have a water separator and fuel filter on your tank I'd add
those and change the filter on your tractor.  Get good filters rated for
the lowest particle size you can.  Injector tolerances and tiny and even
very small particles will cause them to fail.  Ag equipment isn't designed
to as tight a tolerance as on-highway because they didn't have to meet the
strict emissions standards as early, but skimping on filter costs will
result in much higher costs in repairs.  On of my favorite lines from some
Triumph shop manuals starts "It is false economy to reuse (some part I
don't remember)"   So paraphrasing... "It is false economy to use cheap
fuel filters on a diesel engine."

Regarding using the old fuel it all depends on how much you want to spend
on filters and repairs versus disposing of the $150 worth of diesel you've
got in the tank.  The rule of thumb is to not have more than six months
supply on hand.   Older engines will be more tolerant of it than later
(last 10-15 years) engines.  That's why the guys that were cooking their
own biodiesel from french fry oil wanted engines from before the 90s.

Ben Zwissler
[email-masked]
812-343-5533
Columbus, IN

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:46 AM eric--- via Shop-talk <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> Does anyone know of a way to tell if diesel fuel has gone bad?
>
> Here is my situation.  I have a large diesel fuel tank for my tractors on
> my property (so I don't have to buy 'over the road' diesel.)  The fuel in
> there has been there a few years.
>
> My newest tractor (a small 25hp subcompact) started acting funny.  At full
> throttle, it seems to sputter a little.
>
> Could be a fuel problem, but I would love to test the diesel somehow. Or
> is there a way of looking at the filter on the tractor? Or another test to
> do?
>
> Related follow up, if the fuel is bad, and I have about 50 gals in a 250
> tank.  Can I just add fresh fuel to it, or do I need to drain out all the
> bad first?  What would be a good bad/good ratio to dilute the bad fuel?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt?_______________________________________________
>
> [email-masked]
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Diesel fuel goes bad over time.=C2=A0 Just like gasoline t=
he fuel is not stable.=C2=A0 There are ways to test it but to my knowledge =
it means sending a sample to a lab.=C2=A0 Besides sludge and solids accumul=
ating there&#39;s some green mold/fungus that grows in it.=C2=A0 They make =
fuel conditioner with biocide to make it last longer but a &quot;few years&=
quot; is longer than any of them would say they would protect fuel. Your sy=
mptom sounds like a plugged fuel filter.=C2=A0 If you don&#39;t have a wate=
r separator and fuel filter on your tank I&#39;d add those and change the f=
ilter on your tractor.=C2=A0 Get good filters rated for the lowest particle=
 size you can.=C2=A0 Injector tolerances and tiny and even very small parti=
cles will cause them to fail.=C2=A0 Ag equipment isn&#39;t designed to as t=
ight a tolerance as on-highway because they didn&#39;t have to meet the str=
ict emissions standards as early, but skimping on filter costs will result =
in much higher costs in repairs.=C2=A0 On of my favorite lines from some Tr=
iumph shop manuals starts &quot;It is false economy to reuse (some part I d=
on&#39;t remember)&quot;=C2=A0 =C2=A0So paraphrasing... &quot;It is false e=
conomy to use cheap fuel filters on a diesel engine.&quot;<div><br></div><d=
iv>Regarding using the old fuel it all depends on how much you want to spen=
d on filters and repairs=C2=A0versus disposing of the $150 worth of diesel =
you&#39;ve got in the tank.=C2=A0 The rule of thumb is to not have more tha=
n six months supply on hand.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Older engines will be more toleran=
t of it than later (last 10-15 years) engines.=C2=A0 That&#39;s why the guy=
s that were cooking their own biodiesel from french fry oil wanted engines =
from before the 90s.</div><div><br></div><div><br clear=3D"all"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Ben Zwissler<br></div><a href=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>=
<br></div><div>812-343-5533</div>Columbus, IN<br></div></div></div></div></=
div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:46 AM eric--- via Shop-talk &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font si=
ze=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Does anyone know of a way to tell if diesel
fuel has gone bad?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Here is my situation.=C2=A0 I have=
 a
large diesel fuel tank for my tractors on my property (so I don&#39;t have
to buy &#39;over the road&#39; diesel.) =C2=A0The fuel in there has been th=
ere
a few years.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">My newest tractor (a small 25hp su=
bcompact)
started acting funny.=C2=A0 At full throttle, it seems to sputter a little.=
</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Could be a fuel problem, but I wou=
ld
love to test the diesel somehow. Or is there a way of looking at the filter
on the tractor? Or another test to do?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Related follow up, if the fuel is =
bad,
and I have about 50 gals in a 250 tank.=C2=A0 Can I just add fresh fuel
to it, or do I need to drain out all the bad first?=C2=A0 What would be
a good bad/good ratio to dilute the bad fuel?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Thanks!</font>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
<br>
&quot;Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a ratio=
nal
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory.&quot; Ralph
Waldo Emerson <br>
-Who is John Galt?</font>_______________________________________________<br=
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net</a><br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a> <a href=
=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://autox.team.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
alk/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox=
.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

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_______________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From: nick brearley via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:44:46 +0100

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Hi Eric,

First thing check the tractor fuel filter. If it has a grey mush coating=20
it that's a pointer for poor fuel, or an old filter. If so change the=20
filter as a first step then keep an eye on it regularly. You could fill=20
a transparent jug or jar then let it stand for a few days, see if any=20
water settles out.

I use about 500 gallons a year of gas oil (ag diesel) and always put an=20
additive in it:

https://fastexocet.co.uk/product/fuel-store-plus/

Modern diesel often has proportion of biodiesel in it leading to=20
problems down the line. Using that additive I've never had a problem.=20
Regarding reviving the fuel the same company also supply a "Fuel=20
Reviver". Never used it but here it is:

https://fastexocet.co.uk/product/fuel-reviver/

Like me the company is based in the UK but I'm sure a phone call would=20
answer any questions. Looking at the website you can see they can supply=20
an additive for just about any situation you can think of. They may well=20
sell in the US and I'm sure US made products are available. Ask your=20
diesel supplier.

Nick Brearley

On 24/04/2020 12:46, eric--- via Shop-talk wrote:
> Here is my situation. =A0I have a large diesel fuel tank for my tractors=
=20
> on my property (so I don't have to buy 'over the road' diesel.) =A0The=20
> fuel in there has been there a few years.
>
> My newest tractor (a small 25hp subcompact) started acting funny. =A0At=
=20
> full throttle, it seems to sputter a little.
>
> Could be a fuel problem, but I would love to test the diesel somehow.=20
> Or is there a way of looking at the filter on the tractor? Or another=20
> test to do?
>
> Related follow up, if the fuel is bad, and I have about 50 gals in a=20
> 250 tank. =A0Can I just add fresh fuel to it, or do I need to drain out=
=20
> all the bad first? =A0What would be a good bad/good ratio to dilute the=
=20
> bad fuel?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a=20
> rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your=20
> territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt?
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/ar=
chive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/nick@=
landform.co.uk

--------------8F623CBBBD4413BC015EB972
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html;
      charset=3Dwindows-1252">
  </head>
  <body>
    <p>Hi Eric,</p>
    <p>First thing check the tractor fuel filter. If it has a grey mush
      coating it that's a pointer for poor fuel, or an old filter. If so
      change the filter as a first step then keep an eye on it
      regularly. You could fill a transparent jug or jar then let it
      stand for a few days, see if any water settles out.</p>
    <p>I use about 500 gallons a year of gas oil (ag diesel) and always
      put an additive in it:</p>
    <p><a href=3D"https://fastexocet.co.uk/product/fuel-store-plus/">https:=
//fastexocet.co.uk/product/fuel-store-plus/</a></p>
    <p>Modern diesel often has proportion of biodiesel in it leading to
      problems down the line. Using that additive I've never had a
      problem. Regarding reviving the fuel the same company also supply
      a "Fuel Reviver". Never used it but here it is:</p>
    <p><a href=3D"https://fastexocet.co.uk/product/fuel-reviver/">https://f=
astexocet.co.uk/product/fuel-reviver/</a></p>
    <p>Like me the company is based in the UK but I'm sure a phone call
      would answer any questions. Looking at the website you can see
      they can supply an additive for just about any situation you can
      think of. They may well sell in the US and I'm sure US made
      products are available. Ask your diesel supplier.</p>
    <p>Nick Brearley</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 24/04/2020 12:46, eric--- via
      Shop-talk wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"
cite=3D"mid:OFF7446595.89F64735-ON85258554.00402A2E-85258554.0040A447@mail.=
megageek.com">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html;
        charset=3Dwindows-1252">
      <font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Does anyone know of a way to tel=
l
        if diesel
        fuel has gone bad?</font>
      <br>
      <br>
      <font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Here is my situation. =A0I have =
a
        large diesel fuel tank for my tractors on my property (so I
        don't have
        to buy 'over the road' diesel.) =A0The fuel in there has been
        there
        a few years.</font>
      <br>
      <br>
      <font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">My newest tractor (a small 25hp
        subcompact)
        started acting funny. =A0At full throttle, it seems to sputter a
        little.</font>
      <br>
      <br>
      <font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Could be a fuel problem, but I
        would
        love to test the diesel somehow. Or is there a way of looking at
        the filter
        on the tractor? Or another test to do?</font>
      <br>
      <br>
      <font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Related follow up, if the fuel i=
s
        bad,
        and I have about 50 gals in a 250 tank. =A0Can I just add fresh
        fuel
        to it, or do I need to drain out all the bad first? =A0What would
        be
        a good bad/good ratio to dilute the bad fuel?</font>
      <br>
      <br>
      <font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Thanks!</font>
      <br>
      <font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
        <br>
        "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a
        rational
        being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory."
        Ralph
        Waldo Emerson <br>
        -Who is John Galt?</font>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">______________________________=
_________________

<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
et">[email-masked]</a>
te.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a>
Archive: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://www.team.net/pip=
ermail/shop-talk">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a> <a class=3D"m=
oz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive">http://autox.t=
eam.net/archive</a>

.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]">http://autox.team.=
net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>

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[email-masked]

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From: Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 09:14:59 -0400

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We have two 500kW generators at work.  Each has a 1400 gallon tank; we go
through about 500-800 gallons per year.  I expect that, despite the fact
that these generators are having their 21st birthday this year, there is
still some portion of fuel in the tank that is 21 years old.  This bothers
me a little bit, but it keeps working.  We did throw a jug of biocide in
one year with the fresh fuel.

Having said that, we have a service guy come in twice a year to check
fluids and change filters, and they get exercised 30 minutes a week just to
make sure they will run when we need them.

Do like the others have said:  check filters, check a fuel sample from the
tank, and let us know what you find.

There exist people who do fuel polishing - they come to your large ship or
tank farm and run an extra fuel cleaning and refreshing for your stored
diesel fuel.  Might be a bit of overkill on the farm.

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:46 AM eric--- via Shop-talk <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div>We have two 500kW generators at=
 work.=C2=A0 Each has a 1400 gallon tank; we go through about 500-800 gallo=
ns per year.=C2=A0 I expect that, despite the fact that these generators ar=
e having their=C2=A021st birthday this=C2=A0year, there is still some porti=
on of fuel in the tank that is 21 years old.=C2=A0 This bothers me a little=
 bit, but it keeps working.=C2=A0 We did throw a jug of biocide in one year=
 with the fresh fuel.<div><br></div><div>Having said that, we have a servic=
e guy come in twice a year to check fluids and change filters, and they get=
 exercised 30 minutes a week just to make sure they will run when we need t=
hem.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Do like the others=C2=A0have said=
:=C2=A0 check filters, check a fuel sample from the tank, and let us know w=
hat you find.<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail=
_attr"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_attr">There exist people who do fuel p=
olishing - they come to your large ship or tank farm and run an extra fuel =
cleaning and refreshing for your stored diesel fuel.=C2=A0 Might be a bit o=
f overkill on the farm.</div><div class=3D"gmail_attr"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_attr">Jeff Scarbrough</div><div class=3D"gmail_attr">Corrosion Ac=
res, Ga.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"><br></div><div dir=3D"l=
tr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:46 AM eric--- via Shop-t=
alk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]=
t</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Does anyone know of a way to tell if =
diesel
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net</a><br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a> <a href=
=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://autox.team.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
alk/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.=
team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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[email-masked]

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---

From: Al Fuller via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 10:30:13 -0400

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Jeff [and all]:

=20

As regards the comment you made below that the generators get exercised =
30 minutes a week: Please keep in mind that its sounds like you meant to =
say the diesel engines get exercised [as opposed to the generators].=20

=20

The difference is the generator set also includes the transfer switch, =
wiring and other components. I had one client that fired up the diesel =
weekly, but when a wind storm blew down the power lines, the facility =
was down for a week while they tried to locate a new transfer switch. It =
turned out the building housed a lot more people and equipment than when =
the generator set was first specified and the switch set =
couldn=E2=80=99t support the load.  It was very frustrating to have a =
working diesel generator, but unable to power the building!

=20

As a validation person, our motto is if it needs to work, it needs to be =
tested ahead of time =E2=80=93 in the same way you would use it.

=20

----------------

All the best,

=20

Al Fuller

=20

From: Shop-talk <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of Jeff =
Scarbrough via Shop-talk
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 9:15 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question

=20

=20

We have two 500kW generators at work.  Each has a 1400 gallon tank; we =
go through about 500-800 gallons per year.  I expect that, despite the =
fact that these generators are having their 21st birthday this year, =
there is still some portion of fuel in the tank that is 21 years old.  =
This bothers me a little bit, but it keeps working.  We did throw a jug =
of biocide in one year with the fresh fuel.

=20

Having said that, we have a service guy come in twice a year to check =
fluids and change filters, and they get exercised 30 minutes a week just =
to make sure they will run when we need them. =20

=20

Do like the others have said:  check filters, check a fuel sample from =
the tank, and let us know what you find.

=20

There exist people who do fuel polishing - they come to your large ship =
or tank farm and run an extra fuel cleaning and refreshing for your =
stored diesel fuel.  Might be a bit of overkill on the farm.

=20

Jeff Scarbrough

Corrosion Acres, Ga.

=20

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:46 AM eric--- via Shop-talk =

Does anyone know of a way to tell if diesel fuel has gone bad?=20

Here is my situation.  I have a large diesel fuel tank for my tractors =
on my property (so I don't have to buy 'over the road' diesel.)  The =
fuel in there has been there a few years.=20

My newest tractor (a small 25hp subcompact) started acting funny.  At =
full throttle, it seems to sputter a little.=20

Could be a fuel problem, but I would love to test the diesel somehow. Or =
is there a way of looking at the filter on the tractor? Or another test =
to do?=20

Related follow up, if the fuel is bad, and I have about 50 gals in a 250 =
tank.  Can I just add fresh fuel to it, or do I need to drain out all =
the bad first?  What would be a good bad/good ratio to dilute the bad =
fuel?=20

Thanks!=20

"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a =
rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your =
territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson=20
-Who is John Galt?_______________________________________________

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk =
http://autox.team.net/archive

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Jeff [and =
all]:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>As regards the comment you made below that the =
generators get exercised 30 minutes a week: Please keep in mind that its =
sounds like you meant to say the diesel engines get exercised [as =
opposed to the generators]. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The =
difference is the generator set also includes the transfer switch, =
wiring and other components. I had one client that fired up the diesel =
weekly, but when a wind storm blew down the power lines, the facility =
was down for a week while they tried to locate a new transfer switch. It =
turned out the building housed a lot more people and equipment than when =
the generator set was first specified and the switch set =
couldn=E2=80=99t support the load.=C2=A0 It was very frustrating to have =
a working diesel generator, but unable to power the =
building!<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>As a validation person, our motto is if it needs to =
work, it needs to be tested ahead of time =E2=80=93 in the same way you =
would use it.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>----------------<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>All the best,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Al =
Fuller<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Shop-talk =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeff =
Scarbrough via Shop-talk<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 24, 2020 9:15 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> [email-masked]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Shop-talk] diesel fuel question<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>We =
have two 500kW generators at work.&nbsp; Each has a 1400 gallon tank; we =
go through about 500-800 gallons per year.&nbsp; I expect that, despite =
the fact that these generators are having their&nbsp;21st birthday =
this&nbsp;year, there is still some portion of fuel in the tank that is =
21 years old.&nbsp; This bothers me a little bit, but it keeps =
working.&nbsp; We did throw a jug of biocide in one year with the fresh =
fuel.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Having said that, we have a service guy come in twice =
a year to check fluids and change filters, and they get exercised 30 =
minutes a week just to make sure they will run when we need =
them.&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Do like the others&nbsp;have said:&nbsp; check =
filters, check a fuel sample from the tank, and let us know what you =
find.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>There exist people who do fuel polishing - they come =
to your large ship or tank farm and run an extra fuel cleaning and =
refreshing for your stored diesel fuel.&nbsp; Might be a bit of overkill =
on the farm.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jeff Scarbrough<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Corrosion Acres, Ga.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:46 AM eric--- via Shop-talk =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Does anyone =
know of a way to tell if diesel fuel has gone bad?</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Here is my =
situation.&nbsp; I have a large diesel fuel tank for my tractors on my =
property (so I don't have to buy 'over the road' diesel.) &nbsp;The fuel =
in there has been there a few years.</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>My newest =
tractor (a small 25hp subcompact) started acting funny.&nbsp; At full =
throttle, it seems to sputter a little.</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Could be a =
fuel problem, but I would love to test the diesel somehow. Or is there a =
way of looking at the filter on the tractor? Or another test to =
do?</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Related follow =
up, if the fuel is bad, and I have about 50 gals in a 250 tank.&nbsp; =
Can I just add fresh fuel to it, or do I need to drain out all the bad =
first?&nbsp; What would be a good bad/good ratio to dilute the bad =
fuel?</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Thanks!</span> =
<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><br><br>&quot;B=
e as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational =
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory.&quot; =
Ralph Waldo Emerson <br>-Who is John =
Galt?</span>_______________________________________________<br><br><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a><br>Donate: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>Suggested =
annual donation&nbsp; $12.96<br>Archive: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a> <a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" =
target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive</a><br><br>Unsubscribe/Ma=
nage: <a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]=
om" =
target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishpla=
[email-masked]</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></bod=
y></html>
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[email-masked]

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---

From: Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:21:24 -0400

--===============0333310331654712545==

--0000000000006eeb2505a40aeb5d
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Al,

You are correct - it is the engines that get exercised, not the
generator, and that's an important distinction.  Do you do validation or
commissioning, or both?

Our generators  have been reliable so far in real emergencies, but live
load testing with our current facility involves some challenges that have
consequences we don't care to risk if we can help it.

Our new facility, currently under construction (coming online at the end of
this year, pandemic notwithstanding), has two  2MW generators (3800 gallons
each) with load bank for testing.  So we will exercise the generator along
with the diesel engine.  We will probably include live load testing of the
entire system including transfer switch, tie breaker for redundant power
systems, and redundant power supply for one building, at least
semi-annually.  As this place won't be a patchwork of 50 years of
continuous improvement with all that implies, I'm planning on the whole
thing being seamless and trouble-free.

A boy can dream, right?

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:31 AM Al Fuller via Shop-talk <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> Jeff [and all]:
>
>
>
> As regards the comment you made below that the generators get exercised 3=
0
> minutes a week: Please keep in mind that its sounds like you meant to say
> the diesel engines get exercised [as opposed to the generators].
>
>
>
> The difference is the generator set also includes the transfer switch,
> wiring and other components. I had one client that fired up the diesel
> weekly, but when a wind storm blew down the power lines, the facility was
> down for a week while they tried to locate a new transfer switch. It turn=
ed
> out the building housed a lot more people and equipment than when the
> generator set was first specified and the switch set couldn=E2=80=99t sup=
port the
> load.  It was very frustrating to have a working diesel generator, but
> unable to power the building!
>
>
>
> As a validation person, our motto is if it needs to work, it needs to be
> *From:* Shop-talk <[email-masked]> *On Behalf Of *Jeff
> Scarbrough via Shop-talk
> *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2020 9:15 AM
> *To:* [email-masked]
> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question
>
>
>
>
>
> still some portion of fuel in the tank that is 21 years old.  This bother=
s
> fluids and change filters, and they get exercised 30 minutes a week just =
to
> Do like the others have said:  check filters, check a fuel sample from th=
e
> There exist people who do fuel polishing - they come to your large ship o=
r
> My newest tractor (a small 25hp subcompact) started acting funny.  At ful=
l
> is there a way of looking at the filter on the tractor? Or another test t=
o
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

--0000000000006eeb2505a40aeb5d
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Al,<div><br></div><div>You are correct - it is the engines=
 that get exercised, not the generator,=C2=A0and that&#39;s an important=C2=
=A0distinction.=C2=A0 Do you do validation or commissioning, or both?=C2=A0=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Our=C2=A0generators=C2=A0 have been reliabl=
e so far in real emergencies, but live load testing with=C2=A0our current f=
acility involves some challenges that have consequences we don&#39;t care t=
o risk if we can help it.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br><br>Our new facility, currently=C2=
=A0under construction (coming online at the end of this year, pandemic notw=
ithstanding), has two=C2=A0 2MW generators (3800 gallons each) with load ba=
nk for testing.=C2=A0 So we will exercise the generator along with the dies=
el engine.=C2=A0 We will probably include live load testing of the entire s=
ystem including transfer switch, tie breaker for redundant power systems, a=
nd redundant power supply for one building, at least semi-annually.=C2=A0 A=
s this place won&#39;t be a patchwork of 50 years of continuous improvement=
=C2=A0with all that implies, I&#39;m planning on the whole thing being seam=
less and trouble-free.<br><br>A boy can dream, right?</div></div><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 24, =
2020 at 10:31 AM Al Fuller via Shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shop-talk@au=
tox.team.net">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gma=
il-m_-1305550463885562625WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jeff [and all=
]:<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">As regards the comment you made below that the generators ge=
t exercised 30 minutes a week: Please keep in mind that its sounds like you=
 meant to say the diesel engines get exercised [as opposed to the generator=
s]. <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">The difference is the generator set also includes the tran=
sfer switch, wiring and other components. I had one client that fired up th=
e diesel weekly, but when a wind storm blew down the power lines, the facil=
ity was down for a week while they tried to locate a new transfer switch. I=
t turned out the building housed a lot more people and equipment than when =
the generator set was first specified and the switch set couldn=E2=80=99t s=
upport the load.=C2=A0 It was very frustrating to have a working diesel gen=
erator, but unable to power the building!<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">As a validation perso=
n, our motto is if it needs to work, it needs to be tested ahead of time =
=E2=80=93 in the same way you would use it.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">----------------<u>=
</u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">All the best,<u></u><u></u></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Al Fuller<u=
></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div style=
=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt so=
lid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</=
b> Shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Je=
ff Scarbrough via Shop-talk<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 24, 2020 9:15 AM<=
br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank"=
>[email-masked]</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Shop-talk] diesel fue=
l question<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">We have two 500kW generators at work.=C2=A0 Each has a 140=
0 gallon tank; we go through about 500-800 gallons per year.=C2=A0 I expect=
 that, despite the fact that these generators are having their=C2=A021st bi=
rthday this=C2=A0year, there is still some portion of fuel in the tank that=
 is 21 years old.=C2=A0 This bothers me a little bit, but it keeps working.=
=C2=A0 We did throw a jug of biocide in one year with the fresh fuel.<u></u=
><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Having said that, we have a service guy come in twic=
e a year to check fluids and change filters, and they get exercised 30 minu=
tes a week just to make sure they will run when we need them.=C2=A0=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><=
/div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do like the others=C2=A0have said:=C2=A0 c=
heck filters, check a fuel sample from the tank, and let us know what you f=
ind.<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">There exist people who do fuel polish=
ing - they come to your large ship or tank farm and run an extra fuel clean=
ing and refreshing for your stored diesel fuel.=C2=A0 Might be a bit of ove=
rkill on the farm.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jeff Scarbrough<u></u>=
<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Corrosion Acres, Ga.<u></u><u>=
</u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:46 AM eric--- via Shop-t=
alk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">shop-=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=
=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right=
:0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Does anyone know of a way to tel=
l if diesel fuel has gone bad?</span> <br><br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt=
;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Here is my situation.=C2=A0 I have a large d=
iesel fuel tank for my tractors on my property (so I don&#39;t have to buy =
&#39;over the road&#39; diesel.) =C2=A0The fuel in there has been there a f=
ew years.</span> <br><br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sa=
ns-serif">My newest tractor (a small 25hp subcompact) started acting funny.=
=C2=A0 At full throttle, it seems to sputter a little.</span> <br><br><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Could be a fuel prob=
lem, but I would love to test the diesel somehow. Or is there a way of look=
ing at the filter on the tractor? Or another test to do?</span> <br><br><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Related follow up,=
 if the fuel is bad, and I have about 50 gals in a 250 tank.=C2=A0 Can I ju=
st add fresh fuel to it, or do I need to drain out all the bad first?=C2=A0=
 What would be a good bad/good ratio to dilute the bad fuel?</span> <br><br=
><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Thanks!</span>=
 <br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><br><br>&q=
uot;Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rationa=
l being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory.&quot; Ral=
ph Waldo Emerson <br>-Who is John Galt?</span>_____________________________=
__________________<br><br><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" targe=
t=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a><br>Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.=
team.net/donate.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a>=
<br>Suggested annual donation=C2=A0 $12.96<br>Archive: <a href=3D"http://ww=
w.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/piper=
mail/shop-talk</a> <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://autox.team.net/archive</a><br><br>Unsubscribe/Manage: <a href=3D=
"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate@gmai=
l.com</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div>_____=
__________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net</a><br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" rel=3D"norefer=
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alk/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.=
team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

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[email-masked]

--===============0333310331654712545==--

---

From: Eric Russell via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:27:08 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Since we've drifted a little bit off-topic (and we likely have too much 
free time now), here's my story about emergency generators. At the time 
I was working (RN) night shift in a hospital ICU. Every Tuesday about 
6am the hospital would test their emergency generator. It was supposed 
to be a quick blink from regular power to emergency power. Except in our 
ICU (and only the ICU) the power would be off for 3-5 minutes! Not fun 
when you have patients on ventilators that did not have battery back-up. 
It got so bad I would remind my staff to stand by with flashlights and 
manual Ambu bags every Tuesday morning.

I complained to the engineering department but they insisted the power 
would only be off for a few seconds at most. I finally convinced the 
chief engineer to come sit in our unit on a Tuesday morning. He did, the 
power went off for a full 5 minutes and the color drained from his face. 
Whatever was the problem finally got fixed.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

On 4/24/2020 10:30 AM, Al Fuller via Shop-talk wrote:
> As regards the comment you made below that the generators get 
> exercised 30 minutes a week: Please keep in mind that its sounds like 
> you meant to say the diesel engines get exercised [as opposed to the 
> generators].
>
> weekly, but when a wind storm blew down the power lines, the facility 
> was down for a week while they tried to locate a new transfer switch. 
> It turned out the building housed a lot more people and equipment than 
> when the generator set was first specified and the switch set couldn’t 
> support the load.  It was very frustrating to have a working diesel 
> generator, but unable to power the building!
>
>

--------------5230594E7C8EE0E203334F9F
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <p>Since we've drifted a little bit off-topic (and we likely have
      too much free time now), here's my story about emergency
      generators. At the time I was working (RN) night shift in a
      hospital ICU. Every Tuesday about 6am the hospital would test
      their emergency generator. It was supposed to be a quick blink
      from regular power to emergency power. Except in our ICU (and only
      the ICU) the power would be off for 3-5 minutes! Not fun when you
      have patients on ventilators that did not have battery back-up. It
      got so bad I would remind my staff to stand by with flashlights
      and manual Ambu bags every Tuesday morning. <br>
    </p>
    <p> I complained to the engineering department but they insisted the
      power would only be off for a few seconds at most. I finally
      convinced the chief engineer to come sit in our unit on a Tuesday
      morning. He did, the power went off for a full 5 minutes and the
      color drained from his face. Whatever was the problem finally got
      fixed. <br>
    </p>
    Eric Russell<br>
    Mebane, NC <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/24/2020 10:30 AM, Al Fuller via
      Shop-talk wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">As regards the comment you made below
        that the generators get exercised 30 minutes a week: Please keep
        in mind that its sounds like you meant to say the diesel engines
        get exercised [as opposed to the generators]. <o:p></o:p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">The difference is the generator set also
          includes the transfer switch, wiring and other components. I
          had one client that fired up the diesel weekly, but when a
          wind storm blew down the power lines, the facility was down
          for a week while they tried to locate a new transfer switch.
          It turned out the building housed a lot more people and
          equipment than when the generator set was first specified and
          the switch set couldn’t support the load.  It was very
          frustrating to have a working diesel generator, but unable to
          power the building!<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p><br>
          </o:p></p>
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[email-masked]

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---

From: Al Fuller via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 19:59:23 -0400

--===============0437686779296205054==
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Hi Jeff:

=20

We do commissioning and validation. Lately it is mostly for =
FDA-regulated facilities [pharmaceutical, biotech, medical device, etc.] =
=E2=80=93 but also financial services and others.  And, Yup =E2=80=93 a =
boy CAN dream!! =F0=9F=98=8A

=20

It turns out that I am the =E2=80=98jinx=E2=80=99 when it comes to power =
failures:=20

*	Supplier in Las Vegas had a battery backup system. It turns out when =
the power failed they had never serviced the batteries=E2=80=A6
*	Client in Memphis had the wind storm and the transfer switch failed, =
no power to the building
*	Client in Minnesota lost electricity after a ~18 inch snow storm. Four =
(4) buildings on the campus each had individual natural-gas fired =
generators. One was less than 6 months old and HAD been tested as part =
of standing up the building. When I drove up in my Land Cruiser, the =
whole campus was dark! Although I had not personally been involved with =
validation of the building or generator, I was able to diagnose the =
campus-wide lack of power to a validation issue in about three minutes. =
I had then up and running within 10 minutes and headed back to my hotel, =
as the offices were closed.

=20

----------------

All the best,

=20

Al Fuller

=20

From: Shop-talk <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of Jeff =
Scarbrough via Shop-talk
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 11:21 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question

=20

Al,

=20

You are correct - it is the engines that get exercised, not the =
generator, and that's an important distinction.  Do you do validation or =
commissioning, or both? =20

=20

Our generators  have been reliable so far in real emergencies, but live =
load testing with our current facility involves some challenges that =
have consequences we don't care to risk if we can help it. =20

Our new facility, currently under construction (coming online at the end =
of this year, pandemic notwithstanding), has two  2MW generators (3800 =
gallons each) with load bank for testing.  So we will exercise the =
generator along with the diesel engine.  We will probably include live =
load testing of the entire system including transfer switch, tie breaker =
for redundant power systems, and redundant power supply for one =
building, at least semi-annually.  As this place won't be a patchwork of =
50 years of continuous improvement with all that implies, I'm planning =
on the whole thing being seamless and trouble-free.

A boy can dream, right?

=20

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:31 AM Al Fuller via Shop-talk =

Jeff [and all]:

=20

=20

=20

=20

----------------

All the best,

=20

Al Fuller

=20

From: Shop-talk <[email-masked] =
via Shop-talk
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Jeff Scarbrough

Corrosion Acres, Ga.

=20

Thanks!=20

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Jeff:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>We do commissioning and validation. Lately it is =
mostly for FDA-regulated facilities [pharmaceutical, biotech, medical =
device, etc.] =E2=80=93 but also financial services and others. =
=C2=A0And, Yup =E2=80=93 a boy CAN dream!! <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Segoe UI =
Emoji",sans-serif'>&#128522;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>It turns out =
that I am the =E2=80=98jinx=E2=80=99 when it comes to power failures: =
<o:p></o:p></p><ul style=3D'margin-top:0in' type=3Ddisc><li =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'>Supplier in Las Vegas had a battery backup system. It turns out =
when the power failed they had never serviced the =
batteries=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>Client in Memphis had =
the wind storm and the transfer switch failed, no power to the =
building<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>Client in Minnesota =
lost electricity after a ~18 inch snow storm. Four (4) buildings on the =
campus each had individual natural-gas fired generators. One was less =
than 6 months old and HAD been tested as part of standing up the =
building. When I drove up in my Land Cruiser, the whole campus was dark! =
Although I had not personally been involved with validation of the =
building or generator, I was able to diagnose the campus-wide lack of =
power to a validation issue in about three minutes. I had then up and =
running within 10 minutes and headed back to my hotel, as the offices =
were closed.<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>----------------<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>All the best,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Al =
Fuller<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Shop-talk =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeff =
Scarbrough via Shop-talk<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 24, 2020 11:21 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> [email-masked]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Shop-talk] diesel fuel question<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Al,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>You are correct - it is the engines that get =
exercised, not the generator,&nbsp;and that's an =
important&nbsp;distinction.&nbsp; Do you do validation or commissioning, =
or both?&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Our&nbsp;generators&nbsp; have been reliable so far in =
real emergencies, but live load testing with&nbsp;our current facility =
involves some challenges that have consequences we don't care to risk if =
we can help it.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>Our new facility, =
currently&nbsp;under construction (coming online at the end of this =
year, pandemic notwithstanding), has two&nbsp; 2MW generators (3800 =
gallons each) with load bank for testing.&nbsp; So we will exercise the =
generator along with the diesel engine.&nbsp; We will probably include =
live load testing of the entire system including transfer switch, tie =
breaker for redundant power systems, and redundant power supply for one =
building, at least semi-annually.&nbsp; As this place won't be a =
patchwork of 50 years of continuous improvement&nbsp;with all that =
implies, I'm planning on the whole thing being seamless and =
trouble-free.<br><br>A boy can dream, =
right?<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:31 AM Al Fuller via Shop-talk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Jeff [and =
all]:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>As regards =
the comment you made below that the generators get exercised 30 minutes =
a week: Please keep in mind that its sounds like you meant to say the =
diesel engines get exercised [as opposed to the generators]. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The =
difference is the generator set also includes the transfer switch, =
wiring and other components. I had one client that fired up the diesel =
weekly, but when a wind storm blew down the power lines, the facility =
was down for a week while they tried to locate a new transfer switch. It =
turned out the building housed a lot more people and equipment than when =
the generator set was first specified and the switch set =
couldn=E2=80=99t support the load.&nbsp; It was very frustrating to have =
a working diesel generator, but unable to power the =
building!<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>As a =
validation person, our motto is if it needs to work, it needs to be =
tested ahead of time =E2=80=93 in the same way you would use =
it.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>------------=
----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>All the =
best,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Al =
Fuller<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b>=
 Shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 24, =
2020 9:15 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Shop-talk] diesel fuel question<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>We have two =
500kW generators at work.&nbsp; Each has a 1400 gallon tank; we go =
through about 500-800 gallons per year.&nbsp; I expect that, despite the =
fact that these generators are having their&nbsp;21st birthday =
this&nbsp;year, there is still some portion of fuel in the tank that is =
21 years old.&nbsp; This bothers me a little bit, but it keeps =
working.&nbsp; We did throw a jug of biocide in one year with the fresh =
fuel.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Having said =
that, we have a service guy come in twice a year to check fluids and =
change filters, and they get exercised 30 minutes a week just to make =
sure they will run when we need =
them.&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Do like the =
others&nbsp;have said:&nbsp; check filters, check a fuel sample from the =
tank, and let us know what you find.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>There exist =
people who do fuel polishing - they come to your large ship or tank farm =
and run an extra fuel cleaning and refreshing for your stored diesel =
fuel.&nbsp; Might be a bit of overkill on the =
farm.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Jeff =
Scarbrough<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Corrosion =
Acres, Ga.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Fri, Apr =
24, 2020 at 7:46 AM eric--- via Shop-talk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Does anyone =
know of a way to tell if diesel fuel has gone bad?</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Here is my =
situation.&nbsp; I have a large diesel fuel tank for my tractors on my =
property (so I don't have to buy 'over the road' diesel.) &nbsp;The fuel =
in there has been there a few years.</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>My newest =
tractor (a small 25hp subcompact) started acting funny.&nbsp; At full =
throttle, it seems to sputter a little.</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Could be a =
fuel problem, but I would love to test the diesel somehow. Or is there a =
way of looking at the filter on the tractor? Or another test to =
do?</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Related follow =
up, if the fuel is bad, and I have about 50 gals in a 250 tank.&nbsp; =
Can I just add fresh fuel to it, or do I need to drain out all the bad =
first?&nbsp; What would be a good bad/good ratio to dilute the bad =
fuel?</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Thanks!</span> =
<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><br><br>&quot;B=
e as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational =
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory.&quot; =
Ralph Waldo Emerson <br>-Who is John =
Galt?</span>_______________________________________________<br><br><a =
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---

From: Al Fuller via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 20:03:23 -0400

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Eric =E2=80=93 it sounds like the system =E2=80=98worked=E2=80=99 =
[albeit in a perverse way=E2=80=A6]. The testing should illuminate any =
weaknesses in the system and allow for fixing that before it=E2=80=99s =
really needed. Luckily you were able to persist!

=20

----------------

All the best,

=20

Al Fuller

=20

From: Shop-talk <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of Eric =
Russell via Shop-talk
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 11:27 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question

=20

Since we've drifted a little bit off-topic (and we likely have too much =
free time now), here's my story about emergency generators. At the time =
I was working (RN) night shift in a hospital ICU. Every Tuesday about =
6am the hospital would test their emergency generator. It was supposed =
to be a quick blink from regular power to emergency power. Except in our =
ICU (and only the ICU) the power would be off for 3-5 minutes! Not fun =
when you have patients on ventilators that did not have battery back-up. =
It got so bad I would remind my staff to stand by with flashlights and =
manual Ambu bags every Tuesday morning.=20

I complained to the engineering department but they insisted the power =
would only be off for a few seconds at most. I finally convinced the =
chief engineer to come sit in our unit on a Tuesday morning. He did, the =
power went off for a full 5 minutes and the color drained from his face. =
Whatever was the problem finally got fixed.=20

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC=20

=20

=20

=20

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<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Eric =
=E2=80=93 it sounds like the system =E2=80=98worked=E2=80=99 [albeit in =
a perverse way=E2=80=A6]. The testing should illuminate any weaknesses =
in the system and allow for fixing that before it=E2=80=99s really =
needed. Luckily you were able to persist!<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>----------------<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>All the best,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Al =
Fuller<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Shop-talk =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Eric =
Russell via Shop-talk<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 24, 2020 11:27 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> [email-masked]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Shop-talk] diesel fuel question<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p>Since we've drifted a little =
bit off-topic (and we likely have too much free time now), here's my =
story about emergency generators. At the time I was working (RN) night =
shift in a hospital ICU. Every Tuesday about 6am the hospital would test =
their emergency generator. It was supposed to be a quick blink from =
regular power to emergency power. Except in our ICU (and only the ICU) =
the power would be off for 3-5 minutes! Not fun when you have patients =
on ventilators that did not have battery back-up. It got so bad I would =
remind my staff to stand by with flashlights and manual Ambu bags every =
Tuesday morning. <o:p></o:p></p><p>I complained to the engineering =
department but they insisted the power would only be off for a few =
seconds at most. I finally convinced the chief engineer to come sit in =
our unit on a Tuesday morning. He did, the power went off for a full 5 =
minutes and the color drained from his face. Whatever was the problem =
finally got fixed. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Eric =
Russell<br>Mebane, NC <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On 4/24/2020 10:30 AM, Al Fuller via Shop-talk =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>As =
regards the comment you made below that the generators get exercised 30 =
minutes a week: Please keep in mind that its sounds like you meant to =
say the diesel engines get exercised [as opposed to the generators]. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The difference is the generator set also includes the =
transfer switch, wiring and other components. I had one client that =
fired up the diesel weekly, but when a wind storm blew down the power =
lines, the facility was down for a week while they tried to locate a new =
transfer switch. It turned out the building housed a lot more people and =
equipment than when the generator set was first specified and the switch =
set couldn=E2=80=99t support the load.&nbsp; It was very frustrating to =
have a working diesel generator, but unable to power the =
building!<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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