Subject: [Shop-talk] everybody OK with Covid-19?

From: Philip Ethier via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:34:26 -0500

--===============2572609439102667288==

--0000000000004a2ee205a0fd1294

Covid-19 is around.  How are you doing?

-- 
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2006 Gulf Stream Conquest Super C, 8.1, White
2017 Ford Fusion SE 2.0 Turbo, Oxford White
http://www.mnautox.com

--0000000000004a2ee205a0fd1294
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Covid-19 is around.=C2=A0 How are you doing?<br clear=3D"a=
ll"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-s=
martmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);f=
ont-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;background-color:rgb(239,239,239)">Phil Ethier =
West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA</span><br></div><div><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,239,239)">1973 Triumph St=
ag LE22439UBW &quot;uncle jack&quot;, Sapphire Blue</span><br style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,239,239)"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot=
;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,239,239)">2004 Suburb=
an 8.1, Sport Red</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,g=
eneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;backgroun=
d-color:rgb(239,239,239)"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verda=
na,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;backg=
round-color:rgb(239,239,239)">2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl</span></=
div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,=
&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(2=
39,239,239)">2006 Gulf Stream Conquest Super C, 8.1, White</span></div><div=
>2017 Ford Fusion SE 2.0 Turbo, Oxford White<br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);f=
ont-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,239,239)"><a href=3D"http://www.mnautox=
.com/" style=3D"color:rgb(0,24,57);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;=
lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,239=
,239)" target=3D"_blank">http://www.mnautox.com</a><br></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

--0000000000004a2ee205a0fd1294--

--===============2572609439102667288==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

_______________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

--===============2572609439102667288==--

---

From: Al Fuller via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:26:13 -0400 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0865_01D5FEAA.5DB29DE0"

This is a multipart message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0865_01D5FEAA.5DB29DE0
	boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0866_01D5FEAA.5DB29DE0"

------=_NextPart_001_0866_01D5FEAA.5DB29DE0
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Eric - I have one question and one comment: 

Question: I am interested to know the basis for your statement below that
Italy has "poor medical care". All the information I have found indicate it
to be the exact opposite.  See, e.g., Organization for Economic Co-Operation
and Development's website
https://www.oecd.org/els/oecd-reviews-of-health-care-quality-italy-2014-9789
264225428-en.htm or pretty much everything else that comes up in the search
engine for 'quality of healthcare in Italy'.

Comment: I am beginning to be seriously concerned that political commentary
is swamping shop-related and other technical discussion, to the point where
the utility of the list is diminished for me.

----------------

All the best,

Al Fuller

From: Shop-talk <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of eric--- via
Shop-talk
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2020 6:31 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] everybody OK with Covid-19?

I do appreciate everyone's comments here.  I'm not trying to start a war or
anything, and I will stop if no one wants to hear my side (just let me know)

But I'm guessing we all have some extra time on our hands now and this is a
great way to stay in touch with others, without risk. 

A few rebuttals, 

Yes, they are saying that this seems to be more fatal then the flu, however,
I believe there are 2 main reasons for that. 
1-where it started, china then moved to Iran.  Both of these places have
poor nutrition, poor medical care (and even poorer access to it.), and
elderly populations.  Italy also has poor medical care (albeit better than
the other two.)  So fatalities were higher than average modern populations. 

2-Then, there is most likely a vast populations (even in those areas) that
got the virus, and shrugged it off as the flu, got better, and never
reported it.  So that means that you can track 100% of the fatalities, but
you do not know how many 'sick but were fine' people you had.  This will
artificially inflate fatality statistics. 

So, that is why it may SEEM to be worst. Next, comparing this to the Spanish
flu is unfair as we have a way more advance medical machine worldwide now.
Even if that flu hit today, there wouldn't be the same amount of deaths. 

For my job. I have been living and breathing this stuff for almost two
weeks. We are taking a in depth look at every aspect.  The victims in our
state all had other serious health issues. In fact the first person to die
here had just about every major issue you can think of. 
Is it sad people are dying? Yes. I am not trying to down play it.  But these
were all people that the flu most likely would have impacted as well.  It
doesn't make it any less tragic, but it does instill fear in the rest of the
population for something they can't see the details on. People see a "number
of fatalities" statistic.  But they don't see the "aggravating factors for
each person" facts. 

My point is that the response may be way worst than the virus itself. Entire
cities/states/countries shutting down.  Livelihoods lost.  People losing
jobs, and means to support their families. Even with stimulus packages (that
further reduce the dollars worth) business will be closed for good, jobs
that don't come back. All because populations of people that were vulnerable
to the flu or other viruses, contracted one called 'covid-19.'  If they
contracted the regular flu and died, it would have been like any other year.
I hate to sound so insensitive, but it is because I'm rooting for the whole
society and what's best for the vast majority. (yes, I'm sure sounds like
the plot to an original Star Trek episode.) 

Populations are panicking, I hope we don't see riots for food and supplies
as people are being bombarded with more and more fear mongering by the
media. And yes, people choose their media,but the vast majority of people
just watch one side of the 24h networks and have no idea how mis-informed
they are. I can say without reservations that the people on this list are
unequivocally in the 'better informed and educated' group, but go talk to
the average person on the street if you want to see how mis-informed people
are. A good test is to ask 100 people "who the speaker of the house is?"
I'd be amaze if you got 10 correct answers (and if more than 20 people even
had an educated guess.)   

Even if it doesn't come to riots, the stress on people, the loss of
educational opportunities (many college students may have to repeat classes
or entire semesters, delaying their graduations.) 

Or, if there is a REAL emergency that comes later, how many people will
completely ignore it because covid-19 was a big nothing burger? 

I'm not even going to go into my future prediction, as this is already
enough of a bummer. 

To leave on a positive note, it is awesome that most families are going to
get to spend a ton of time together.  It's great that we get time to pursue
our passions and hobbies. It is also great that this is happening when we
are entering spring and the weather is breaking. 

Please feel free to comment, I will not respond unless asked to as I don't
want this to drag out unless there is enough interest.  This list has been a
great resource for me for decades, and I respect each and ever one of you
opinions and advice. 

Now, I'm going back to look in the sofa cushions to see if I missed
something.  8>)

"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo
Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?

------=_NextPart_001_0866_01D5FEAA.5DB29DE0
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 =
(filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
	{font-family:"Cambria Math";
	panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
	{font-family:Calibri;
	panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
	{margin:0in;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
	{mso-style-priority:99;
	color:#0563C1;
	text-decoration:underline;}
.MsoChpDefault
	{mso-style-type:export-only;
	font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
@page WordSection1
	{size:8.5in 11.0in;
	margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
	{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Eric &#8211; I have one question and one comment: =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Question: I am interested to know the basis for your =
statement below that Italy has &#8220;poor medical care&#8221;. All the =
information I have found indicate it to be the exact opposite.&nbsp; =
See, e.g., Organization for Economic Co-Operation and =
Development&#8217;s website <a =
href=3D"https://www.oecd.org/els/oecd-reviews-of-health-care-quality-ital=
y-2014-9789264225428-en.htm">https://www.oecd.org/els/oecd-reviews-of-hea=
lth-care-quality-italy-2014-9789264225428-en.htm</a> or pretty much =
everything else that comes up in the search engine for &#8216;quality of =
healthcare in Italy&#8217;.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Comment: I =
am beginning to be seriously concerned that political commentary is =
swamping shop-related and other technical discussion, to the point where =
the utility of the list is diminished for me.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>----------------<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>All the best,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Al =
Fuller<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Shop-talk =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>eric--- via =
Shop-talk<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 19, 2020 6:31 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
[email-masked]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Shop-talk] everybody OK =
with Covid-19?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I do =
appreciate everyone's comments here. &nbsp;I'm not trying to start a war =
or anything, and I will stop if no one wants to hear my side (just let =
me know)</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>But I'm =
guessing we all have some extra time on our hands now and this is a =
great way to stay in touch with others, without risk.</span> =
<br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>A few =
rebuttals, </span><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Yes, they are =
saying that this seems to be more fatal then the flu, however, I believe =
there are 2 main reasons for that.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>1-where it =
started, china then moved to Iran. &nbsp;Both of these places have poor =
nutrition, poor medical care (and even poorer access to it.), and =
elderly populations. &nbsp;Italy also has poor medical care (albeit =
better than the other two.) &nbsp;So fatalities were higher than average =
modern populations. </span><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>2-Then, there =
is most likely a vast populations (even in those areas) that got the =
virus, and shrugged it off as the flu, got better, and never reported =
it. &nbsp;So that means that you can track 100% of the fatalities, but =
you do not know how many 'sick but were fine' people you had. &nbsp;This =
will artificially inflate fatality statistics.</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>So, that is =
why it may SEEM to be worst. Next, comparing this to the Spanish flu is =
unfair as we have a way more advance medical machine worldwide now. =
&nbsp;Even if that flu hit today, there wouldn't be the same amount of =
deaths.</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>For my job. I =
have been living and breathing this stuff for almost two weeks. We are =
taking a in depth look at every aspect. &nbsp;The victims in our state =
all had other serious health issues. In fact the first person to die =
here had just about every major issue you can think of. </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Is it sad =
people are dying? Yes. I am not trying to down play it. &nbsp;But these =
were all people that the flu most likely would have impacted as well. =
&nbsp;It doesn't make it any less tragic, but it does instill fear in =
the rest of the population for something they can't see the details on. =
People see a &quot;number of fatalities&quot; statistic. &nbsp;But they =
don't see the &quot;aggravating factors for each person&quot; =
facts.</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>My point is =
that the response may be way worst than the virus itself. Entire =
cities/states/countries shutting down. &nbsp;Livelihoods lost. =
&nbsp;People losing jobs, and means to support their families. Even with =
stimulus packages (that further reduce the dollars worth) business will =
be closed for good, jobs that don't come back. All because populations =
of people that were vulnerable to the flu or other viruses, contracted =
one called 'covid-19.' &nbsp;If they contracted the regular flu and =
died, it would have been like any other year. I hate to sound so =
insensitive, but it is because I'm rooting for the whole society and =
what's best for the vast majority. (yes, I'm sure sounds like the plot =
to an original Star Trek episode.)</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Populations =
are panicking, I hope we don't see riots for food and supplies as people =
are being bombarded with more and more fear mongering by the media. And =
yes, people choose their media,but the vast majority of people just =
watch one side of the 24h networks and have no idea how mis-informed =
they are. I can say without reservations that the people on this list =
are unequivocally in the 'better informed and educated' group, but go =
talk to the average person on the street if you want to see how =
mis-informed people are. A good test is to ask 100 people &quot;who the =
speaker of the house is?&quot; &nbsp;I'd be amaze if you got 10 correct =
answers (and if more than 20 people even had an educated guess.) =
&nbsp;</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Even if it =
doesn't come to riots, the stress on people, the loss of educational =
opportunities (many college students may have to repeat classes or =
entire semesters, delaying their graduations.)</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Or, if there =
is a REAL emergency that comes later, how many people will completely =
ignore it because covid-19 was a big nothing burger?</span> =
<br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I'm not even =
going to go into my future prediction, as this is already enough of a =
bummer.</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>To leave on a =
positive note, it is awesome that most families are going to get to =
spend a ton of time together. &nbsp;It's great that we get time to =
pursue our passions and hobbies. It is also great that this is happening =
when we are entering spring and the weather is breaking.</span> =
<br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Please feel =
free to comment, I will not respond unless asked to as I don't want this =
to drag out unless there is enough interest. &nbsp;This list has been a =
great resource for me for decades, and I respect each and ever one of =
you opinions and advice.</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Now, I'm going =
back to look in the sofa cushions to see if I missed something. =
&nbsp;8&gt;)<br><br>&quot;Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if =
your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch =
of your territory.&quot; Ralph Waldo Emerson <br>-Who is John =
Galt?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_001_0866_01D5FEAA.5DB29DE0--

------=_NextPart_000_0865_01D5FEAA.5DB29DE0
	name="Untitled attachment 02051.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Untitled attachment 02051.txt"

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk =
http://autox.team.net/archive

http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

------=_NextPart_000_0865_01D5FEAA.5DB29DE0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

[email-masked]

------=_NextPart_000_0865_01D5FEAA.5DB29DE0--