Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] everybody OK with Covid-19?

From: Mark J Bradakis via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 09:37:38 -0600

> Comment: I am beginning to be seriously concerned that political 
> commentary is swamping shop-related and other technical discussion, to 
> the point where the utility of the list is diminished for me.
>
Everyone who wishes to continue this discussion go to 
http://www.team.net/mailman/listinfo/the-local and subscribe to that 
list. It is intended for this sort of thing.

Doctor's orders!

mjb.

_______________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

---

From: Scott Hall via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:19:43 -0500

--===============2549267186837449994==

--000000000000a8729305a14f037f
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Italy has very good medical care. As good as the U.S., and they're on a
U.K.-like national plan so no one's avoiding going for financial reasons.
They do have private hospitals that are *very* good, then the public ones
that are just as good as ones you'd see in the U.S., then some in the
sticks that would be like those in tiny U.S. towns...except most of those
have long since closed. Americans might look down on those, but the
alternative in the U.S. would be a hospital that doesn't exist any more.

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 10:28 AM Al Fuller via Shop-talk <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> Hi Eric =E2=80=93 I have one question and one comment:
>
>
>
> Question: I am interested to know the basis for your statement below that
> Italy has =E2=80=9Cpoor medical care=E2=80=9D. All the information I have=
 found indicate it
> to be the exact opposite.  See, e.g., Organization for Economic
> Co-Operation and Development=E2=80=99s website
> https://www.oecd.org/els/oecd-reviews-of-health-care-quality-italy-2014-9=
789264225428-en.htm
> or pretty much everything else that comes up in the search engine for
> =E2=80=98quality of healthcare in Italy=E2=80=99.
>
>
>
> commentary is swamping shop-related and other technical discussion, to th=
e
> point where the utility of the list is diminished for me.
>
> ----------------
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> Al Fuller
>
>
>
> *From:* Shop-talk <[email-masked]> *On Behalf Of *eric-=
--
> via Shop-talk
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 19, 2020 6:31 PM
> *To:* [email-masked]
> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] everybody OK with Covid-19?
>
>
>
> I do appreciate everyone's comments here.  I'm not trying to start a war
> or anything, and I will stop if no one wants to hear my side (just let me
> know)
>
> But I'm guessing we all have some extra time on our hands now and this is
> a great way to stay in touch with others, without risk.
>
> A few rebuttals,
>
> Yes, they are saying that this seems to be more fatal then the flu,
> however, I believe there are 2 main reasons for that.
> 1-where it started, china then moved to Iran.  Both of these places have
> poor nutrition, poor medical care (and even poorer access to it.), and
> elderly populations.  Italy also has poor medical care (albeit better tha=
n
> the other two.)  So fatalities were higher than average modern population=
s.
>
> 2-Then, there is most likely a vast populations (even in those areas) tha=
t
> got the virus, and shrugged it off as the flu, got better, and never
> reported it.  So that means that you can track 100% of the fatalities, bu=
t
> you do not know how many 'sick but were fine' people you had.  This will
> artificially inflate fatality statistics.
>
> So, that is why it may SEEM to be worst. Next, comparing this to the
> Spanish flu is unfair as we have a way more advance medical machine
> worldwide now.  Even if that flu hit today, there wouldn't be the same
> amount of deaths.
>
> For my job. I have been living and breathing this stuff for almost two
> weeks. We are taking a in depth look at every aspect.  The victims in our
> state all had other serious health issues. In fact the first person to di=
e
> here had just about every major issue you can think of.
> Is it sad people are dying? Yes. I am not trying to down play it.  But
> these were all people that the flu most likely would have impacted as
> well.  It doesn't make it any less tragic, but it does instill fear in th=
e
> rest of the population for something they can't see the details on. Peopl=
e
> see a "number of fatalities" statistic.  But they don't see the
> "aggravating factors for each person" facts.
>
> My point is that the response may be way worst than the virus itself.
> Entire cities/states/countries shutting down.  Livelihoods lost.  People
> losing jobs, and means to support their families. Even with stimulus
> packages (that further reduce the dollars worth) business will be closed
> for good, jobs that don't come back. All because populations of people th=
at
> were vulnerable to the flu or other viruses, contracted one called
> 'covid-19.'  If they contracted the regular flu and died, it would have
> been like any other year. I hate to sound so insensitive, but it is becau=
se
> I'm rooting for the whole society and what's best for the vast majority.
> (yes, I'm sure sounds like the plot to an original Star Trek episode.)
>
> Populations are panicking, I hope we don't see riots for food and supplie=
s
> as people are being bombarded with more and more fear mongering by the
> media. And yes, people choose their media,but the vast majority of people
> just watch one side of the 24h networks and have no idea how mis-informed
> they are. I can say without reservations that the people on this list are
> unequivocally in the 'better informed and educated' group, but go talk to
> the average person on the street if you want to see how mis-informed peop=
le
> are. A good test is to ask 100 people "who the speaker of the house is?"
>  I'd be amaze if you got 10 correct answers (and if more than 20 people
> even had an educated guess.)
>
> Even if it doesn't come to riots, the stress on people, the loss of
> educational opportunities (many college students may have to repeat class=
es
> or entire semesters, delaying their graduations.)
>
> Or, if there is a REAL emergency that comes later, how many people will
> completely ignore it because covid-19 was a big nothing burger?
>
> I'm not even going to go into my future prediction, as this is already
> enough of a bummer.
>
> To leave on a positive note, it is awesome that most families are going t=
o
> get to spend a ton of time together.  It's great that we get time to purs=
ue
> our passions and hobbies. It is also great that this is happening when we
> are entering spring and the weather is breaking.
>
> Please feel free to comment, I will not respond unless asked to as I don'=
t
> want this to drag out unless there is enough interest.  This list has bee=
n
> a great resource for me for decades, and I respect each and ever one of y=
ou
> opinions and advice.
>
> Now, I'm going back to look in the sofa cushions to see if I missed
> something.  8>)
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt?
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal@gmail=
.com

--000000000000a8729305a14f037f
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Italy has very good medical care. As good as the U.S., and=
 they&#39;re on a U.K.-like national plan so no one&#39;s avoiding going fo=
r financial reasons. They do have private hospitals that are *very* good, t=
hen the public ones that are just as good as ones you&#39;d see in the U.S.=
, then some in the sticks that would be like those in tiny U.S. towns...exc=
ept most of those have long since closed. Americans might look down on thos=
e, but the alternative in the U.S. would be a hospital that doesn&#39;t exi=
st any more.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 10:28 AM Al Fuller via Shop-talk &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=
=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_9174533605400445528WordSection1"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Eric =E2=80=93 I have one question and one comment: <u></=
u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">Question: I am interested to know the basis for your statement belo=
w that Italy has =E2=80=9Cpoor medical care=E2=80=9D. All the information I=
 have found indicate it to be the exact opposite.=C2=A0 See, e.g., Organiza=
tion for Economic Co-Operation and Development=E2=80=99s website <a href=3D=
"https://www.oecd.org/els/oecd-reviews-of-health-care-quality-italy-2014-97=
89264225428-en.htm" target=3D"_blank">https://www.oecd.org/els/oecd-reviews=
-of-health-care-quality-italy-2014-9789264225428-en.htm</a> or pretty much =
everything else that comes up in the search engine for =E2=80=98quality of =
healthcare in Italy=E2=80=99.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comment: I am beginning to be ser=
iously concerned that political commentary is swamping shop-related and oth=
er technical discussion, to the point where the utility of the list is dimi=
nished for me.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">----------------<u><=
/u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">All the best,<u></u><u></u></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Al Fuller<u>=
</u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><b>From:</b> Shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shop-talk-bounces@au=
tox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; <b=
>On Behalf Of </b>eric--- via Shop-talk<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 19,=
 2020 6:31 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" tar=
get=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Shop-ta=
lk] everybody OK with Covid-19?<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u>=
</u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:Arial,sans-serif">I do appreciate everyone&#39;s comments here.=
=C2=A0 I&#39;m not trying to start a war or anything, and I will stop if no=
 one wants to hear my side (just let me know)</span> <br><br><span style=3D=
"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">But I&#39;m guessing we all h=
ave some extra time on our hands now and this is a great way to stay in tou=
ch with others, without risk.</span> <br><br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;=
font-family:Arial,sans-serif">A few rebuttals, </span><br><br><span style=
=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Yes, they are saying that =
this seems to be more fatal then the flu, however, I believe there are 2 ma=
in reasons for that.</span> <br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:A=
rial,sans-serif">1-where it started, china then moved to Iran.=C2=A0 Both o=
f these places have poor nutrition, poor medical care (and even poorer acce=
ss to it.), and elderly populations.=C2=A0 Italy also has poor medical care=
 (albeit better than the other two.) =C2=A0So fatalities were higher than a=
verage modern populations. </span><br><br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:Arial,sans-serif">2-Then, there is most likely a vast populations =
(even in those areas) that got the virus, and shrugged it off as the flu, g=
ot better, and never reported it.=C2=A0 So that means that you can track 10=
0% of the fatalities, but you do not know how many &#39;sick but were fine&=
#39; people you had.=C2=A0 This will artificially inflate fatality statisti=
cs.</span> <br><br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-ser=
if">So, that is why it may SEEM to be worst. Next, comparing this to the Sp=
anish flu is unfair as we have a way more advance medical machine worldwide=
 now.=C2=A0 Even if that flu hit today, there wouldn&#39;t be the same amou=
nt of deaths.</span> <br><br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Aria=
l,sans-serif">For my job. I have been living and breathing this stuff for a=
lmost two weeks. We are taking a in depth look at every aspect.=C2=A0 The v=
ictims in our state all had other serious health issues. In fact the first =
person to die here had just about every major issue you can think of. </spa=
n><br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Is it sad=
 people are dying? Yes. I am not trying to down play it.=C2=A0 But these we=
re all people that the flu most likely would have impacted as well.=C2=A0 I=
t doesn&#39;t make it any less tragic, but it does instill fear in the rest=
 of the population for something they can&#39;t see the details on. People =
see a &quot;number of fatalities&quot; statistic.=C2=A0 But they don&#39;t =
see the &quot;aggravating factors for each person&quot; facts.</span> <br><=
br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">My point is =
that the response may be way worst than the virus itself. Entire cities/sta=
tes/countries shutting down.=C2=A0 Livelihoods lost.=C2=A0 People losing jo=
bs, and means to support their families. Even with stimulus packages (that =
further reduce the dollars worth) business will be closed for good, jobs th=
at don&#39;t come back. All because populations of people that were vulnera=
ble to the flu or other viruses, contracted one called &#39;covid-19.&#39; =
=C2=A0If they contracted the regular flu and died, it would have been like =
any other year. I hate to sound so insensitive, but it is because I&#39;m r=
ooting for the whole society and what&#39;s best for the vast majority. (ye=
s, I&#39;m sure sounds like the plot to an original Star Trek episode.)</sp=
an> <br><br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Pop=
ulations are panicking, I hope we don&#39;t see riots for food and supplies=
 as people are being bombarded with more and more fear mongering by the med=
ia. And yes, people choose their media,but the vast majority of people just=
 watch one side of the 24h networks and have no idea how mis-informed they =
are. I can say without reservations that the people on this list are unequi=
vocally in the &#39;better informed and educated&#39; group, but go talk to=
 the average person on the street if you want to see how mis-informed peopl=
e are. A good test is to ask 100 people &quot;who the speaker of the house =
is?&quot; =C2=A0I&#39;d be amaze if you got 10 correct answers (and if more=
 than 20 people even had an educated guess.) =C2=A0</span> <br><br><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Even if it doesn&#39;t =
come to riots, the stress on people, the loss of educational opportunities =
(many college students may have to repeat classes or entire semesters, dela=
ying their graduations.)</span> <br><br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-=
family:Arial,sans-serif">Or, if there is a REAL emergency that comes later,=
 how many people will completely ignore it because covid-19 was a big nothi=
ng burger?</span> <br><br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,s=
ans-serif">I&#39;m not even going to go into my future prediction, as this =
is already enough of a bummer.</span> <br><br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt=
;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">To leave on a positive note, it is awesome t=
hat most families are going to get to spend a ton of time together.=C2=A0 I=
t&#39;s great that we get time to pursue our passions and hobbies. It is al=
so great that this is happening when we are entering spring and the weather=
 is breaking.</span> <br><br><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Aria=
l,sans-serif">Please feel free to comment, I will not respond unless asked =
to as I don&#39;t want this to drag out unless there is enough interest.=C2=
=A0 This list has been a great resource for me for decades, and I respect e=
ach and ever one of you opinions and advice.</span> <br><br><span style=3D"=
font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Now, I&#39;m going back to loo=
k in the sofa cushions to see if I missed something. =C2=A08&gt;)<br><br>&q=
uot;Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rationa=
l being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory.&quot; Ral=
ph Waldo Emerson <br>-Who is John Galt?</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div=
>_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net</a><br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a> <a href=
=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://autox.team.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
alk/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]<=
/a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000a8729305a14f037f--

--===============2549267186837449994==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

[email-masked]

--===============2549267186837449994==--