Subject: [Shop-talk] tire balancing

From: Steven Trovato via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 17:31:23 -0500

Two years ago, I purchased a set of Michelin tires for my Ford 
Expedition at BJs.  It was not a great experience, and I don't think 
I'd do it again.  The tires do come with a road hazard warranty, 
though, and free flat repair.  I got a puncture in the right rear 
yesterday, so I ventured down to BJs once again.  The guy there asked 
me if it was a front or rear tire.  He said they balance them 
differently.  He said it was "statically balanced" but on a machine 
that spins it and uses lasers.  I don't know what he is talking 
about.  I told him it is a rear tire, but that shouldn't matter, 
because it will be a front tire when I rotate them.  He told me I 
shouldn't do that.  I have to bring the vehicle to them to rotate and 
re-balance.  None of this makes any sense to me.  Have things changed 
drastically or is this guy nuts?  I should note that all this stuff 
is free when you buy the tires there, so I don't really see any 
financial motive for them to want to do this.

-Steve

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From: Benjamin Zwissler via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 17:53:30 -0500

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Well, I vote he has no clue what he's talking about.  What I learned was
that static and spin balancing were not the same thing.  Static was done
with a bubble balance without spinning.  Spinning meant spinning.  There
was spinning on the car and spinning off the car, but I don't think anyone
does it on the car anymore.

I don't know why they would balance front and back differently, seems like
balanced is balanced regardless of front or rear.

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019, 5:32 PM Steven Trovato via Shop-talk <
[email-masked]> wrote:

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<div dir=3D"auto">Well, I vote he has no clue what he&#39;s talking about.=
=C2=A0 What I learned was that static and spin balancing were not the same =
thing.=C2=A0 Static was done with a bubble balance without spinning.=C2=A0 =
Spinning meant spinning.=C2=A0 There was spinning on the car and spinning o=
ff the car, but I don&#39;t think anyone does it on the car anymore.<div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I don&#39;t know why they would bala=
nce front and back differently, seems like balanced is balanced regardless =
of front or rear.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr=
" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 4, 2019, 5:32 PM Steven Trovato via Shop=
-talk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex">Two years ago, I purchased a set of Michelin tires for=
 my Ford <br>
Expedition at BJs.=C2=A0 It was not a great experience, and I don&#39;t thi=
nk <br>
I&#39;d do it again.=C2=A0 The tires do come with a road hazard warranty, <=
br>
though, and free flat repair.=C2=A0 I got a puncture in the right rear <br>
yesterday, so I ventured down to BJs once again.=C2=A0 The guy there asked =
<br>
me if it was a front or rear tire.=C2=A0 He said they balance them <br>
differently.=C2=A0 He said it was &quot;statically balanced&quot; but on a =
machine <br>
that spins it and uses lasers.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t know what he is talking <b=
r>
about.=C2=A0 I told him it is a rear tire, but that shouldn&#39;t matter, <=
br>
because it will be a front tire when I rotate them.=C2=A0 He told me I <br>
shouldn&#39;t do that.=C2=A0 I have to bring the vehicle to them to rotate =
and <br>
re-balance.=C2=A0 None of this makes any sense to me.=C2=A0 Have things cha=
nged <br>
drastically or is this guy nuts?=C2=A0 I should note that all this stuff <b=
r>
is free when you buy the tires there, so I don&#39;t really see any <br>
financial motive for them to want to do this.<br>
<br>
-Steve<br>
<br>
<br>
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From: old dirtbeard via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:55:26 -0800

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HI Steve,

I believe that most tire warranties require tire rotation to be valid.

If it is a Corvette with offset front and rears, I realize that you could
not rotate front to rear, but for normal vehicles, this does not make sense
to me...

best,

doug

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 2:32 PM Steven Trovato via Shop-talk <
[email-masked]> wrote:

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<div dir=3D"ltr">HI Steve,<div><br></div><div>I believe=C2=A0that most tire=
 warranties require tire rotation to be valid.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>If it is a Corvette with=C2=A0offset front and rears, I realize that you=
 could not rotate front to rear, but for normal vehicles, this does not mak=
e=C2=A0sense to me...</div><div><br></div><div>best,</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>doug</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D=
"gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 2:32 PM Steven Trovato via Shop-talk &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Two y=
ears ago, I purchased a set of Michelin tires for my Ford <br>
Expedition at BJs.=C2=A0 It was not a great experience, and I don&#39;t thi=
nk <br>
I&#39;d do it again.=C2=A0 The tires do come with a road hazard warranty, <=
br>
though, and free flat repair.=C2=A0 I got a puncture in the right rear <br>
yesterday, so I ventured down to BJs once again.=C2=A0 The guy there asked =
<br>
me if it was a front or rear tire.=C2=A0 He said they balance them <br>
differently.=C2=A0 He said it was &quot;statically balanced&quot; but on a =
machine <br>
that spins it and uses lasers.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t know what he is talking <b=
r>
about.=C2=A0 I told him it is a rear tire, but that shouldn&#39;t matter, <=
br>
because it will be a front tire when I rotate them.=C2=A0 He told me I <br>
shouldn&#39;t do that.=C2=A0 I have to bring the vehicle to them to rotate =
and <br>
re-balance.=C2=A0 None of this makes any sense to me.=C2=A0 Have things cha=
nged <br>
drastically or is this guy nuts?=C2=A0 I should note that all this stuff <b=
r>
is free when you buy the tires there, so I don&#39;t really see any <br>
financial motive for them to want to do this.<br>
<br>
-Steve<br>
<br>
<br>
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From: David Scheidt via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 21:18:12 -0600

> financial motive for them to want to do this.

There are a fair number of shops that balance the front wheels-to-be
when rotating tires.  Fronts cause more complaints (you tend to feel
the wobble in the steering wheel), so making sure they're balance can
save a come back.  The fronts are probably okay, or the the customer
would complain.   I can't imagine any reason to balance the ends
differently, and any repaired tire should be balanced.  (I, of course,
repaired hundreds of tires without balancing them, or dismounting for
inspection, when I did this stuff for money, but I never did my own
that way, and wouldn't put up with it today on a modern low profile
tire.)

there are wheel balancers that have lasers, but I'll the ones I've
ever seen just use it to put a line where the weight goes.  (this
saves much time, and given most wheel techs need bibs, mistakes.)
There are fancy machines that use sonar to detect the size of the
wheel assembly (which it needs to know to figure out weights).  again
saves time and errors/

-- 
David Scheidt
[email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: Steven Trovato via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 12:20:47 -0500

Thanks Dave.  All of that is in line with my understanding.  It was 
the whole front vs back question, because they "balance them 
differently" that had me puzzled!  Still haven't heard a good 
explanation for that, other than that he doesn't know what he's 
talking about.  I think that's the conclusion I'm going with!

-Steve T.

[email-masked]

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From: Randall via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 12:21:11 -0600

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I don't know that this is relevant, but the manual for my on-the-car balanc=
er (an antique so old it actually uses vacuum tubes) talks about "static" a=
nd "dynamic" imbalance as two different tire/wheel conditions=2E Its sensor=
 only works in one direction, so first you check for the tire hopping up an=
d down (which it call static imbalance), then for wobble from side to side =
(dynamic)=2E IIRC, the dynamic check is only done on the front axle=2E
-- Randall
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I don't know that this is relevant, but the manual for my on-the-car balanc=
er (an antique so old it actually uses vacuum tubes) talks about "static" a=
nd "dynamic" imbalance as two different tire/wheel conditions=2E Its sensor=
 only works in one direction, so first you check for the tire hopping up an=
d down (which it call static imbalance), then for wobble from side to side =
(dynamic)=2E IIRC, the dynamic check is only done on the front axle=2E<br>-=
- Randall
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From: Steven Trovato via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 13:40:39 -0500

That's interesting.  I always thought of static balancing as being 
done with a bubble balancer sitting still on the floor.  And any 
balancing with the wheel actually spinning I would call 
dynamic.  They obviously use the terms differently.  I imagine it 
wouldn't hurt any if you did both for the rear as well, even if it 
isn't necessary.  The whole premise of on-the-car balancing is that 
you don't want to move the tires around.  Even if you remove and 
replace a wheel, you want to mark it so you put the same lug studs 
through the same wheel holes.  I would think in modern off-the-car 
balancing they should just balance all of the wheels the best they 
can regardless of position.  I suppose they could use a lower 
standard for the rears, but that seems pretty lame to me.

-Steve

At 01:21 PM 11/5/2019, Randall via Shop-talk wrote:
>I don't know that this is relevant, but the manual for my on-the-car 
>balancer (an antique so old it actually uses vacuum tubes) talks 
>about "static" and "dynamic" imbalance as two different tire/wheel 
>conditions. Its sensor only works in one direction, so first you 
>check for the tire hopping up and down (which it call static 
>imbalance), then for wobble from side to side (dynamic). IIRC, the 
>dynamic check is only done on the front axle.
>-- Randall

[email-masked]

---

From: Donald H Locker via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 14:29:15 -0500

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Static vs. Dynamic - consider a yardstick (or metre-stick) with equal 
weights on either end. With one weight mounted an inch below the stick, the 
other three inches below, with both equidistant from the center of the 
stick. This is statically balanced similar to a balance - neither side will 
tend to rise or fall. BUT if you put an axle through it and rotate it about 
that axis, the weights will try to rotate about a point two inches below 
the yardstick and will alternately pull it up and down a bit with each 
revolution.

Putting both weights equidistant radially and axially (which is what 
dynamic balancing does) removes that wobbling force. Here is some ASCII art 
(best viewed in a fixed-width font.)

Static balance only            Static and Dynamic balance
---------------+--------------- ---------------+---------------
Wt             |                               |
                |                Wt             |     Wt
                |             Wt

Donald.

On 05-Nov-2019 13:40, Steven Trovato via Shop-talk wrote:
> That's interesting.  I always thought of static balancing as being done 
> with a bubble balancer sitting still on the floor.  And any balancing 
> with the wheel actually spinning I would call dynamic. They obviously use 
> the terms differently.  I imagine it wouldn't hurt any if you did both 
> for the rear as well, even if it isn't necessary.  The whole premise of 
> on-the-car balancing is that you don't want to move the tires around.  
> Even if you remove and replace a wheel, you want to mark it so you put 
> the same lug studs through the same wheel holes.  I would think in modern 
> off-the-car balancing they should just balance all of the wheels the best 
> they can regardless of position.  I suppose they could use a lower 
>> balancer (an antique so old it actually uses vacuum tubes) talks about 
>> "static" and "dynamic" imbalance as two different tire/wheel conditions. 
>> Its sensor only works in one direction, so first you check for the tire 
>> hopping up and down (which it call static imbalance), then for wobble 
>> from side to side (dynamic). IIRC, the dynamic check is only done on the 
>> front axle.
>> -- Randall
>
>

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    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <p>Static vs. Dynamic - consider a yardstick (or metre-stick) with
      equal weights on either end. With one weight mounted an inch below
      the stick, the other three inches below, with both equidistant
      from the center of the stick. This is statically balanced similar
      to a balance - neither side will tend to rise or fall. BUT if you
      put an axle through it and rotate it about that axis, the weights
      will try to rotate about a point two inches below the yardstick
      and will alternately pull it up and down a bit with each
      revolution.<br>
      <br>
      Putting both weights equidistant radially and axially (which is
      what dynamic balancing does) removes that wobbling force. Here is
      some ASCII art (best viewed in a fixed-width font.)<br>
      <br>
            <tt>Static balance only            Static and Dynamic
        balance</tt><tt><br>
      </tt><tt>---------------+---------------
        ---------------+---------------</tt><tt><br>
      </tt><tt>Wt             |                               |</tt><tt><br>
      </tt><tt>               |                Wt             |        
            Wt</tt><tt><br>
      </tt><tt>               |             Wt</tt><br>
      <br>
      Donald.</p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05-Nov-2019 13:40, Steven Trovato
      via Shop-talk wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:[email-masked]">That's
      interesting.  I always thought of static balancing as being done
      with a bubble balancer sitting still on the floor.  And any
      balancing with the wheel actually spinning I would call dynamic. 
      They obviously use the terms differently.  I imagine it wouldn't
      hurt any if you did both for the rear as well, even if it isn't
      necessary.  The whole premise of on-the-car balancing is that you
      don't want to move the tires around.  Even if you remove and
      replace a wheel, you want to mark it so you put the same lug studs
      through the same wheel holes.  I would think in modern off-the-car
      balancing they should just balance all of the wheels the best they
      can regardless of position.  I suppose they could use a lower
      standard for the rears, but that seems pretty lame to me.
      <br>
      <br>
      -Steve
      <br>
      <br>
      At 01:21 PM 11/5/2019, Randall via Shop-talk wrote:
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">I don't know that this is relevant, but
        the manual for my on-the-car balancer (an antique so old it
        actually uses vacuum tubes) talks about "static" and "dynamic"
        imbalance as two different tire/wheel conditions. Its sensor
        only works in one direction, so first you check for the tire
        hopping up and down (which it call static imbalance), then for
        wobble from side to side (dynamic). IIRC, the dynamic check is
        only done on the front axle.
        <br>
        -- Randall
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
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[email-masked]

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From: Ian McFetridge via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 17:56:53 -0500

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Got me at a loss, unless it is done on the car and they are also balancing
the rotating assembly, do front/rear could matter.  It would be telling to
report what he actually does.

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 5:53 PM Benjamin Zwissler via Shop-talk <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>

--00000000000003875805968d3caf
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<div><div dir=3D"auto">Got me at a loss, unless it is done on the car and t=
hey are also balancing the rotating assembly, do front/rear could matter.=
=C2=A0 It would be telling to report what he actually does.</div></div><div=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mo=
n, Nov 4, 2019 at 5:53 PM Benjamin Zwissler via Shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-co=
lor:rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir=3D"auto">Well, I vote he has no clue what he=
&#39;s talking about.=C2=A0 What I learned was that static and spin balanci=
ng were not the same thing.=C2=A0 Static was done with a bubble balance wit=
hout spinning.=C2=A0 Spinning meant spinning.=C2=A0 There was spinning on t=
he car and spinning off the car, but I don&#39;t think anyone does it on th=
e car anymore.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I don&#39;t kno=
w why they would balance front and back differently, seems like balanced is=
 balanced regardless of front or rear.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr=
">On Mon, Nov 4, 2019, 5:32 PM Steven Trovato via Shop-talk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">shop-=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color=
:rgb(204,204,204)"></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width=
:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204=
,204)">Two years ago, I purchased a set of Michelin tires for my Ford <br>
Expedition at BJs.=C2=A0 It was not a great experience, and I don&#39;t thi=
nk <br>
I&#39;d do it again.=C2=A0 The tires do come with a road hazard warranty, <=
br>
though, and free flat repair.=C2=A0 I got a puncture in the right rear <br>
yesterday, so I ventured down to BJs once again.=C2=A0 The guy there asked =
<br>
me if it was a front or rear tire.=C2=A0 He said they balance them <br>
differently.=C2=A0 He said it was &quot;statically balanced&quot; but on a =
machine <br>
that spins it and uses lasers.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t know what he is talking <b=
r>
about.=C2=A0 I told him it is a rear tire, but that shouldn&#39;t matter, <=
br>
because it will be a front tire when I rotate them.=C2=A0 He told me I <br>
shouldn&#39;t do that.=C2=A0 I have to bring the vehicle to them to rotate =
and <br>
re-balance.=C2=A0 None of this makes any sense to me.=C2=A0 Have things cha=
nged <br>
drastically or is this guy nuts?=C2=A0 I should note that all this stuff <b=
r>
is free when you buy the tires there, so I don&#39;t really see any <br>
financial motive for them to want to do this.<br>
<br>
-Steve<br>
<br>
<br>
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---

From: "Tim . via Shop-talk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:58:58 +0000

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Were it me, find the contact form on the company's web site, explain what y=
ou were told and ask for clarification about their methods, explanations, e=
tc.

just my .002
tim
________________________________
From: Shop-talk <[email-masked]> on behalf of Steven Trov=
ato via Shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2019 4:31 PM
To: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Shop-talk] tire balancing

-Steve

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arch=
ive

[email-masked]

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<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
Were it me, find the contact form on the company's web site, explain what y=
ou were told and ask for clarification about their methods, explanations, e=
tc.&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
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<br>
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<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
just my .002</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
tim</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co=
lor=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Shop-talk &lt;shop-ta=
[email-masked]&gt; on behalf of Steven Trovato via Shop-talk &lt=
;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 4, 2019 4:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> [email-masked] &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Shop-talk] tire balancing</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"=
<div class=3D"PlainText">Two years ago, I purchased a set of Michelin tires=
 for my Ford
<br>
Expedition at BJs.&nbsp; It was not a great experience, and I don't think <=
br>
I'd do it again.&nbsp; The tires do come with a road hazard warranty, <br>
though, and free flat repair.&nbsp; I got a puncture in the right rear <br>
yesterday, so I ventured down to BJs once again.&nbsp; The guy there asked =
<br>
me if it was a front or rear tire.&nbsp; He said they balance them <br>
differently.&nbsp; He said it was &quot;statically balanced&quot; but on a =
machine <br>
that spins it and uses lasers.&nbsp; I don't know what he is talking <br>
about.&nbsp; I told him it is a rear tire, but that shouldn't matter, <br>
because it will be a front tire when I rotate them.&nbsp; He told me I <br>
shouldn't do that.&nbsp; I have to bring the vehicle to them to rotate and =
<br>
re-balance.&nbsp; None of this makes any sense to me.&nbsp; Have things cha=
nged <br>
drastically or is this guy nuts?&nbsp; I should note that all this stuff <b=
r>
is free when you buy the tires there, so I don't really see any <br>
financial motive for them to want to do this.<br>
<br>
-Steve<br>
<br>
<br>
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