Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engineering question

From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 15:45:48 -0600

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Yes, truly an engineering question.  It has been many years since I was in
engineering school.  But I know the answer to this one.  You have not
provided enough information to answer the question.  We would need to know
the wall thickness of the tank and type of aluminum.  Measuring the wall
thickness should be pretty easy, but figuring out the grad of aluminum may
be very difficult.  I suggest giving up on the engineering and resort to
shade-tree mechanics.  Use a piece of 3/4" plywood and cut a radius in it
to match the tank, then bolt this between the upper arms of the 4x4 to make
a cradle.  Stack enough pieces of plywood together to match the width of
the strap used on the truck.  You know that method was sufficient under the
dynamic load of a moving semi.  Should be more than adequate for a
stationary tank.  It also has the added benefit of tying the 4x4's together
at the point of load, so outward bending stresses will be reduced.  Your
4x4 x ' should be fine as long as you use through bolts of adequate size to
join the together in the middle and to bolt the ties at the base.  To help
insure the load on the 4x4's are minimized, you should cut the bottom ends
to match the angle, so the sit flat on the floor.

On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 2:48 PM, Matt <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving and have plenty to be thankful for!
>
> I am adding diesel storage capacity to my shop.
> I got a good deal on an aluminum semitruck fuel tank ( 26" diameter  68"
> long) and need to construct a stand for it.
> These are normally secured on the truck with metal straps or bands.
>
> For my stand I am considering constructing large "X" from pressure treated
> 4x4 and resting the tank in the upper V.
> I would tie them together with 2x4 s to keep them from cocking.  I figure
> I would be safe with 3 Xs if any doubt, 4 to make sure.
>
> Question:  If I went with only 2 supports and kept them out on the ends,
> would the bending moment (bowing) threaten the integrity of the tank?
> 150 gallons is about 1000#.  Similarly, would the reduced "contact patch"
> of X mounts vice continuous straps threaten the tank walls?
>
> I am sure I could dig out my old *Statics* book and find the equation,
> but don't have a design bending limit for the tank.
> I am anticipating that just 2 supports, especially out at the ends would
> be too risky.
>
>
> Thanks for your thoughts,
> Matt in GA
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> [email-masked]
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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> options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>
>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Yes, truly an engineering question.=C2=A0 It has been many=
 years since I was in engineering school.=C2=A0 But I know the answer to th=
is one.=C2=A0 You have not provided enough information to answer the questi=
on.=C2=A0 We would need to know the wall thickness of the tank and type of =
aluminum.=C2=A0 Measuring the wall thickness should be pretty easy, but fig=
uring out the grad of aluminum may be very difficult.=C2=A0 I suggest givin=
g up on the engineering and resort to shade-tree mechanics.=C2=A0 Use a pie=
ce of 3/4&quot; plywood and cut a radius in it to match the tank, then bolt=
 this between the upper arms of the 4x4 to make a cradle.=C2=A0 Stack enoug=
h pieces of plywood together to match the width of the strap used on the tr=
uck.=C2=A0 You know that method was sufficient under the dynamic load of a =
moving semi.=C2=A0 Should be more than adequate for a stationary tank.=C2=
=A0 It also has the added benefit of tying the 4x4&#39;s together at the po=
int of load, so outward bending stresses will be reduced.=C2=A0 Your 4x4 x =
&#39; should be fine as long as you use through bolts of adequate size to j=
oin the together in the middle and to bolt the ties at the base.=C2=A0 To h=
elp insure the load on the 4x4&#39;s are minimized, you should cut the bott=
om ends to match the angle, so the sit flat on the floor.=C2=A0 <br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 27, 20=
16 at 2:48 PM, Matt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div>I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving and have plen=
ty to be thankful for!</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>I am adding diesel storage capacity to my shop.</div>
<div>I got a good deal on an aluminum semitruck fuel tank ( 26&quot; diamet=
er =C2=A068&quot; long) and need to construct a stand for it.</div>
<div>These are normally secured on the truck with metal straps or bands.</d=
iv>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>For my stand I am considering constructing large &quot;X&quot; from pr=
essure treated 4x4 and resting the tank in the upper V.</div>
<div>I would tie them together with 2x4 s to keep them from cocking.=C2=A0 =
I figure I would be safe with 3 Xs if any doubt, 4 to make sure.</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Question: =C2=A0If I went with only 2 supports and kept them out on th=
e ends, would the bending moment (bowing) threaten the integrity of the tan=
k?</div>
<div>150 gallons is about 1000#.=C2=A0 Similarly, would the reduced &quot;c=
ontact patch&quot; of X mounts vice continuous straps threaten the tank wal=
ls?</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>I am sure I could dig out my old <em>Statics</em> book and find the eq=
uation, but don&#39;t have a design bending limit for the tank.</div>
<div>I am anticipating that just 2 supports, especially out at the ends wou=
ld be too risky.</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Thanks for your thoughts,</div>
<div>Matt in GA</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br=
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.<wbr>html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/archive</a><br>
Forums: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br>
alk/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.te=
am.net/mailman/<wbr>options/shop-talk/jdinnis@<wbr>gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail=
_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br=
>=3D Never offend people with style when you=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D<br>=3D can off=
end with substance --- Sam Brown=C2=A0 =3D<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</d=
iv>
</div>

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_______________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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From: Brian Kennedy <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 17:44:50 -0500

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	charset=us-ascii

I looked at a photo online. Straps are about 1/4 of the length from the =
end which is where I would think you'd put them to minimize the bending. =
Hard to believe that your static stresses would be anywhere near close =
to what the tanks would see on an 18 wheeler pounding down the road.
Brian in MI

On Nov 27, 2016, at 4:45 PM, John Innis <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Yes, truly an engineering question.  It has been many years since I =
was in engineering school.  But I know the answer to this one.  You have =
not provided enough information to answer the question.  We would need =
to know the wall thickness of the tank and type of aluminum.  Measuring =
the wall thickness should be pretty easy, but figuring out the grad of =
aluminum may be very difficult.  I suggest giving up on the engineering =
and resort to shade-tree mechanics.  Use a piece of 3/4" plywood and cut =
a radius in it to match the tank, then bolt this between the upper arms =
of the 4x4 to make a cradle.  Stack enough pieces of plywood together to =
match the width of the strap used on the truck.  You know that method =
was sufficient under the dynamic load of a moving semi.  Should be more =
than adequate for a stationary tank.  It also has the added benefit of =
tying the 4x4's together at the point of load, so outward bending =
stresses will be reduced.  Your 4x4 x ' should be fine as long as you =
use through bolts of adequate size to join the together in the middle =
and to bolt the ties at the base.  To help insure the load on the 4x4's =
are minimized, you should cut the bottom ends to match the angle, so the =
sit flat on the floor. =20
>=20
> I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving and have plenty to be thankful =
for!
> =20
> I got a good deal on an aluminum semitruck fuel tank ( 26" diameter  =
68" long) and need to construct a stand for it.
> =20
> For my stand I am considering constructing large "X" from pressure =
treated 4x4 and resting the tank in the upper V.
> I would tie them together with 2x4 s to keep them from cocking.  I =
figure I would be safe with 3 Xs if any doubt, 4 to make sure.
> =20
> Question:  If I went with only 2 supports and kept them out on the =
ends, would the bending moment (bowing) threaten the integrity of the =
tank?
> 150 gallons is about 1000#.  Similarly, would the reduced "contact =
patch" of X mounts vice continuous straps threaten the tank walls?
> =20
> I am sure I could dig out my old Statics book and find the equation, =
> I am anticipating that just 2 supports, especially out at the ends =
would be too risky.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I =
looked at a photo online. Straps are about 1/4 of the length from the =
end which is where I would think you'd put them to minimize the bending. =
Hard to believe that your static stresses would be anywhere near close =
to what the tanks would see on an 18 wheeler pounding down the =
road.<div>Brian in MI<br><div apple-content-edited=3D"true">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-size: medium; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-size: medium; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><br><br></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span>
</div>
<br><div><div>On Nov 27, 2016, at 4:45 PM, John Innis &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">Yes, truly an engineering question.&nbsp; =
It has been many years since I was in engineering school.&nbsp; But I =
know the answer to this one.&nbsp; You have not provided enough =
information to answer the question.&nbsp; We would need to know the wall =
thickness of the tank and type of aluminum.&nbsp; Measuring the wall =
thickness should be pretty easy, but figuring out the grad of aluminum =
may be very difficult.&nbsp; I suggest giving up on the engineering and =
resort to shade-tree mechanics.&nbsp; Use a piece of 3/4" plywood and =
cut a radius in it to match the tank, then bolt this between the upper =
arms of the 4x4 to make a cradle.&nbsp; Stack enough pieces of plywood =
together to match the width of the strap used on the truck.&nbsp; You =
know that method was sufficient under the dynamic load of a moving =
semi.&nbsp; Should be more than adequate for a stationary tank.&nbsp; It =
also has the added benefit of tying the 4x4's together at the point of =
load, so outward bending stresses will be reduced.&nbsp; Your 4x4 x ' =
should be fine as long as you use through bolts of adequate size to join =
the together in the middle and to bolt the ties at the base.&nbsp; To =
help insure the load on the 4x4's are minimized, you should cut the =
bottom ends to match the angle, so the sit flat on the floor.&nbsp; =
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 2:48 PM, Matt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: =
auto; "><div>I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving and have plenty to =
be thankful for!</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I am adding diesel storage capacity to my shop.</div>
<div>I got a good deal on an aluminum semitruck fuel tank ( 26" diameter =
&nbsp;68" long) and need to construct a stand for it.</div>
<div>These are normally secured on the truck with metal straps or =
bands.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>For my stand I am considering constructing large "X" from pressure =
treated 4x4 and resting the tank in the upper V.</div>
<div>I would tie them together with 2x4 s to keep them from =
cocking.&nbsp; I figure I would be safe with 3 Xs if any doubt, 4 to =
make sure.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Question: &nbsp;If I went with only 2 supports and kept them out on =
the ends, would the bending moment (bowing) threaten the integrity of =
the tank?</div>
<div>150 gallons is about 1000#.&nbsp; Similarly, would the reduced =
"contact patch" of X mounts vice continuous straps threaten the tank =
walls?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I am sure I could dig out my old <em>Statics</em> book and find the =
equation, but don't have a design bending limit for the tank.</div>
<div>I am anticipating that just 2 supports, especially out at the ends =
would be too risky.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Thanks for your thoughts,</div>
<div>Matt in GA</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
<br>
<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br>
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.<wbr>html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/archive</a><br>
Forums: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br>
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/<wbr>options/shop-talk/jdi=
nnis@<wbr>gmail.com</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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[email-masked]

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