Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Welding v. Rivets

From: Jim Juhas <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 10:45:21 -0400

My thought was that I can seal the area with a silicone adhesive or automotive bonding agents that will not be compromised by welding, and so superior to weld through coatings and the like. The bed is attached to the truck frame with eight 1/2 inch bolts so the rivets (or welds) do not add much structural integrity to the structure.

Sent via iPad
Jim Juhas

> On Jul 31, 2016, at 6:33 PM, [email-masked] wrote:
> 
> Based on owning an Austin Healey with steel fenders and aluminum
> shroud I would vote for the rosette welds.  You can probably get to
> much of the heated metal around the welds with some paint or LPS2.
> There is even weld through primer but I don't know how successful it
> is.  If you are using MIG or TIG the heat affected zone will be small,
> but if you use oxyacetelene it will be pretty big and you will need to
> respond accordingly.
> 
> If you use aluminum rivets you will need to take the same precautions
> to keep the rivet area dry or sealed, too.  If you do, the result will
> probably last for longer than you will have the truck anyhow.
> 
> -Roland
>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 18:27:08 -0400, you wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I am replacing the support rails for the bed of my 2007 F250.  (I 
>> thought about a bed replacement but it seems the rails are the only 
>> rotten parts.  NO RUST in the fender wells!)
>> 
>> Once the old rails are removed, my plan was to rosette-weld in the new 
>> ones.  But, I have the ability to use aircraft rivets, probably 3/16" 
>> size.  If I do this, I can seal the entire junction with silicone, as 
>> I've done in my FFR Roadster. Welding will leave a place for corrosion, 
>> but would the exposure be better or worse with the dissimilar metal of 
>> the rivets, aluminum v. steel?
> 
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From: Jim Juhas <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 18:31:55 -0400

I learned that the aluminum F150s rely on rivets rather than welds both in manufacture and repair. There is a specialized rivet gun they use that pierces the panels and doesn't go through the back panel. See henrob.com for details. I understand spot welding aluminum consumes vast amounts of amperage, more than most repair shops can handle.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 2, 2016, at 12:20 PM, [email-masked] wrote:
> 
> Makes sense to me. 
> -Roland
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
>   Original Message  
> From: Jim Juhas
> Sent: Tuesday, August 2, 2016 7:45 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Welding v. Rivets
> 

[email-masked]

---

From: Jim Juhas <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 12:58:08 -0400

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I thought of that but it comes down to selecting the lesser of evils. The pu=
re rust I found in the rails was extensive for a 9 year old truck. The quest=
ion is whether the galvanic corrosion would be worse. =46rom the appearance o=
f what I found on the truck it's hard to imagine worse.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 3, 2016, at 11:13 AM, John Innis <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> Aluminum rivets in steel are a bad idea.  Unless something is done to perm=
anently coat the surfaces where the tow materials interface, there will be g=
alvanic corrosion.  Just encapsulating the completed joint is not sufficient=
, you have to make sure that the expanded portion of the rivet in the hole n=
ever touches the steel base material.  I have seen this done with highly spe=
cialized rivets with some sort of interface collar, but I don't think plain a=
ircraft aluminum rivets will work.
>=20
>> On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 5:27 PM, Jim Juhas <[email-masked]> wrote=
:
>> I am replacing the support rails for the bed of my 2007 F250.  (I thought=
 about a bed replacement but it seems the rails are the only rotten parts.  N=
O RUST in the fender wells!)
>>=20
>> Once the old rails are removed, my plan was to rosette-weld in the new on=
es.  But, I have the ability to use aircraft rivets, probably 3/16" size.  I=
f I do this, I can seal the entire junction with silicone, as I've done in m=
y FFR Roadster. Welding will leave a place for corrosion, but would the expo=
sure be better or worse with the dissimilar metal of the rivets, aluminum v.=
 steel?
>>=20
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinn=
[email-masked]
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> =3D Never offend people with style when you   =3D
> =3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =3D
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I thought of that but it comes down to=
 selecting the lesser of evils. The pure rust I found in the rails was exten=
sive for a 9 year old truck. The question is whether the galvanic corrosion w=
ould be worse. =46rom the appearance of what I found on the truck it's hard t=
o imagine worse.<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Aug 3, 2016, at=
 11:13 AM, John Innis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">jdinnis@gmail=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"=
ltr">Aluminum rivets in steel are a bad idea.&nbsp; Unless something is done=
 to permanently coat the surfaces where the tow materials interface, there w=
ill be galvanic corrosion.&nbsp; Just encapsulating the completed joint is n=
ot sufficient, you have to make sure that the expanded portion of the rivet i=
n the hole never touches the steel base material.&nbsp; I have seen this don=
e with highly specialized rivets with some sort of interface collar, but I d=
on't think plain aircraft aluminum rivets will work.<br></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 5:27 PM,=
 Jim Juhas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" t=
arget=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex">I am replacing the support rails for the bed of my 2007 F2=
50.&nbsp; (I thought about a bed replacement but it seems the rails are the o=
nly rotten parts.&nbsp; NO RUST in the fender wells!)<br>
<br>
Once the old rails are removed, my plan was to rosette-weld in the new ones.=
&nbsp; But, I have the ability to use aircraft rivets, probably 3/16" size.&=
nbsp; If I do this, I can seal the entire junction with silicone, as I've do=
ne in my FFR Roadster. Welding will leave a place for corrosion, but would t=
he exposure be better or worse with the dissimilar metal of the rivets, alum=
inum v. steel?<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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t=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
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.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_sign=
ature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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 offend people with style when you&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D<br>=3D can offend with su=
bstance --- Sam Brown&nbsp; =3D<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div>
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