Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] chains vs snow tires

From: Brian Kennedy <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 09:51:37 -0800

I grew up driving the backroads of Michigan in a '50 Ford. Snow tires meant just that, they worked well in snow. Only chains worked well on ice but are a hassle. Nowadays, all seasons work very great with all wheel drive. I now spend some time in Oregon and occasionally go to the mountains. I have all wheel drive, but I'd never want to be caught on an icy slick mountain road without chains. Chains are pretty cheap. With my '96 F150 limited slip, a few 40 lb bags of salt in the back does pretty well. My thought would b to put lots of weight in the back and carry chains until your tires need replacing, then I'd buy snows. As I recall, the way snow tires work is the snow gets lodged in the grooves and the real traction is snow to snow. 
Brian K.

On Jan 19, 2016, at 9:31 AM, Randall <[email-masked]> wrote:

>> I am considering either real snow tires (I doubt studs are 
>> available or allowed) *or* chains. 
> 
> IMO chains are a lot more hassle.  As noted, you really should run them only when you are actually driving on snow, which can mean
> removing and installing several times per season.  But at the same time, they are a lot more effective than snow tires even with
> studs.
> 
> If I had to choose only one, and I had to get there in any kind of weather, I'd pick chains.  But if you routinely have to drive to
> work on unplowed roads, IMO it's a false economy not to get snow tires *and* chains.  Leave the tires on for the season, and carry
> the chains for when it gets really bad (like frozen rain topped with snow).
> 
> -- Randall  
> 
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From: David Hillman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 14:03:54 -0500 (EST)

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016, Brian Kennedy wrote:
> With my '96 F150 limited slip, a few 40 lb bags of salt in the back 
> does pretty well. My thought would b to put lots of weight in the back 
> and carry chains until your tires need replacing, then I'd buy snows. 
> As I recall, the way snow tires work is the snow gets lodged in the 
> grooves and the real traction is snow to snow.

    [obligatory-resume]Since 1998, I've spent almost every winter racing 
mid-engined RWD cars on frozen lakes in Michigan and Wisconsin, whenever 
those lakes are hard enough -- over 300 races.  I've tried or raced 
against virtually every snow tire made, and built a few sets of studded 
tires for racing purposes.  Since I don't live in Michigan or Wisconsin, 
that means I've also got tens of thousands of miles towing my trailers 
and racecars out to the middle of nowhere in the dead of winter.
[/obligatory-resume]

    First off, the last sentence above is not right.  There can be some 
grip from packed snow, but that's not how they are designed to work.  Snow 
tires actually work the same way as all other tires: the rubber deforms 
into microscopic imperfections in the road surface ( or whatever they are 
rolling on ) and that interface provides traction.  The increased void 
ratio of off-road tires is there to give loose material ( snow, mud, etc ) 
somewhere to go, so it doesn't get trapped between the rubber and the road 
( and interfere with the process above ).

    The best snow tires use rubber compounds that stay pliable down to 
sub-zero temperatures, so they can still mate with surface imperfections. 
I have some custom-made racing snows on which you can manually twist the 
tread blocks at 10 below.  They probably wouldn't last 200 miles on a dry 
road, but that rubber is soft enough to grip imperfections in glare ice. 
Ironically, they are made in North Carolina!  Also, modern snow tires 
have a 'traction material' molded into the rubber -- recycled industrial 
diamonds are a common choice, but there are a few others.  This obviously 
increases bite on real ice.  For this reason, the old logic about 
super-narrow snows is no longer important.  I have run everything from 
165s to 225s on my little car, and wider is faster/better in some 
conditions (not all).

    Second, weight is a mixed bag.  It will help sometimes, and hurt 
sometimes.  Many of the guys I race with are huge believers in adding 
ballast.  My car is always by far the smallest and lightest in my class -- 
to the point where some guys have run as much __ballast__ as my cars 
weighs ( ~1 ton ) -- but still one of the fastest.  TANSTAAFL, however, 
and while you have more traction as a result, you __need__ a lot more to 
go/stop/turn.  Appropriate tires are a much better choice.  The only time 
the heaviest cars win is when we have a half-frozen, slushy mix several 
inches deep.  On dry snow, they have no chance.  On smooth ice, they also 
lose.

    I am not a fan of chains, or street-legal studs.  Metal doesn't work 
well with pavement, and neither bite into ice well.  1mm studs in snow 
are near useless.  I don't think either are superior to top-notch snow 
tires -- basically, Blizzaks, Nokians, and a couple others.  I can 
literally talk snow tires all day, and at the moment, I own at least four 
sets.  For all of my street cars ( which were sometimes also racecars ) I 
would pick up a spare set of wheels, and mount up the best snows I could 
find, and I would go anywhere in any conditions.  Everytime we get a big 
snow, I go out and drive around in it for hours for fun.

    I am positive that if Eric picks up some quality snows for his truck, 
he'll be just fine, and very happy.

    I'm trying to keep this as short as possible, but if we want to talk 
specific tire models, I'm game.  It does make a huge difference... for 
example, with Blizzak LM series and WS.  The former are just barely 
better than all-seasons, the latter are the ones you want from that brand.

--
  David Hillman

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