Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Enclosed car trailer

From: Mike Rambour <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 07:54:23 -0700

and when you get lucky and I mean really lucky, the car rolls off the 
trailer on the freeway offramp and comes to a stop with minimal 
damage...a few hundred yards earlier I would have been to 60, instead I 
was doing 10mph, like I said lucky.  This was with the chassis strapped 
down tight, but I guess not tight enough since a downward bounce allowed 
the hooks to come loose and the straps came off.

  After that incident, I got the wheel basket straps, moved the D-rings 
to where they needed to be and never strapped down the chassis again.  
Let the chassis bounce all it wants, keep the wheels locked down and the 
car will stay.  Maybe even better for the car since the cars suspension 
is still able to freely move.

     mike

On 9/9/2015 4:48 AM, Dave wrote:
> If you put restraints on the chassis but don't compress the suspension sufficiently the restraints will go slack in a jounce situation and when the suspension rebounds and you hit the limits of the restraints you put a lot of kinetic stress on the restraints and the attachment points.  When you are hauling a car like a TR with a stiff, overdamped suspension there is little secondary bouncing.  If you are hauling a 70's vintage Cadillac, on the other hand...
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

---

From: David Hillman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 12:34:25 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 9 Sep 2015, Mike Rambour wrote:
> trailer on the freeway offramp and comes to a stop with minimal damage...a 
> few hundred yards earlier I would have been to 60, instead I was doing 10mph, 
> like I said lucky.  This was with the chassis strapped down tight, but I 
> guess not tight enough since a downward bounce allowed the hooks to come 
> loose and the straps came off.

    At risk of sounding like a paid shill, which I am not.  Use snap hooks, 
which cannot disengage.  Relying on tension alone to maintain attachment 
is risky, as you discovered.

<http://www.lodimetals.com/2-standard-handle-ratchet-wsnap-hook>

    Of course you can buy those from any number of vendors, but these are 
the best quality I've seen, and frequently cheaper than made-in-China 
crap.

    Out of random curiosity, how did the door open?  Or are we talking 
about a beavertailed open trailer here?

--
  David Hillman

[email-masked]

---

From: Mike Rambour <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 10:16:33 -0700

Open trailer with beaver tail, I personally have never seen a reason 
for a enclosed trailer. My trailers have to do dual duty...haul trash to 
the dump and haul my car around.

Its hard to haul trash to the dump in a enclosed trailer and in 30+ 
years of towing my car I have never any issues in motel parking lots 
including the few that were not in a neighborhood I would have chosen 
today with the advantage of the web to look at the neighborhood with.  I 
do admit a few times at races in the rain it would have been nice to 
have a enclosed trailer, but I only want to own one trailer and it has 
to be able to loaded up with construction debris to go to the dump or 
yard debris, etc.

  And I agree with the snap hooks but I still prefer the tire baskets 
now with one safety to the axle :)

     mike

On 9/9/2015 9:34 AM, David Hillman wrote:
>> damage...a few hundred yards earlier I would have been to 60, instead 
>> I was doing 10mph, like I said lucky.  This was with the chassis 
>> strapped down tight, but I guess not tight enough since a downward 
>> bounce allowed the hooks to come loose and the straps came off.
>
>    At risk of sounding like a paid shill, which I am not.  Use snap 
> hooks, which cannot disengage.  Relying on tension alone to maintain 
> attachment is risky, as you discovered.
>
>    Of course you can buy those from any number of vendors, but these 
> are the best quality I've seen, and frequently cheaper than 
> made-in-China crap.
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 12:24:01 -0500

Since you started the discussion, lets get this one going right.  First and
foremost, I am not an expert, but the information I am presenting here was
presented to me by someone I believed to be an expert.  One of the guys at
our SCCA club put on a trailing clinic, and this is what he told us.  Since
he has pulled a lot of very expensive cars around to tracks all over the US
and claims to have had 0 incidents, I think his experience is worth
listening to.

I was taught to ALWAYS strap a car down by the frame.  I was told to use
crossover strapping and tighten them until the suspension was about 50%
compressed.

The Crossover strapping method means that the amount that the straps
stretch or relax is minimized when the car moves up (in ANY direction).  So
if the car hops to the side a bit the angle of the strap might change, but
the length won't (or at least it will change less).

Compressing the suspension forces the car and trailer to move as one and
insures that even if the car shifts a little bit, the straps will remain
tight.  If your trailer has suspension and the car is allowed to bounce on
its suspension independently of the trailer, the tow can end up going at
different directions with a significant amount of force.

And finally, ALWAYS have a backup method of insuring your load does not
ever separate from the trailer.  I was taught to have at least tow safety
chains connected to the frame of the car with clevis or quick link.

My own personal advice is do all of the above AND stop after 20 miles or
whenever the weather changes and check your straps.  I only pull a trailer
a few times a year and have probably done less than 10000 miles hauling
cars, but I have also never had a problem using these methods.  I am
curious to hear what other on the list have to say on this subject.

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 9:54 AM, Mike Rambour <[email-masked]> wrote:

> few hundred yards earlier I would have been to 60, instead I was doing
> 10mph, like I said lucky.  This was with the chassis strapped down tight,
> but I guess not tight enough since a downward bounce allowed the hooks to
> come loose and the straps came off.
>
>
>  After that incident, I got the wheel basket straps, moved the D-rings to
> where they needed to be and never strapped down the chassis again.  Let the
> chassis bounce all it wants, keep the wheels locked down and the car will
> stay.  Maybe even better for the car since the cars suspension is still
> able to freely move.
>
>     mike
>
>
>> If you put restraints on the chassis but don't compress the suspension
>> sufficiently the restraints will go slack in a jounce situation and when
>> the suspension rebounds and you hit the limits of the restraints you put a
>> lot of kinetic stress on the restraints and the attachment points.  When
>> you are hauling a car like a TR with a stiff, overdamped suspension there
>> is little secondary bouncing.  If you are hauling a 70's vintage Cadillac,
>> on the other hand...
>>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

---

From: "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 11:25:13 -0700

OK, I canbt help myself, Ibve got to mention the how and why of my
trailer.  Since I have a variety of interests (including tall horseless
carriages) I ordered a full sized (8-1/2b wide and an extra foot taller
enclosed 24b trailer.  I use it for local tours in our horseless carriage
clubbs
activities as well as a once a year long haul from the Pac NW to Hershey
Fall Meet.  Itbs a 3,000 mile haul over two mountain ranges each way.

Herebs what Ibve learned:
I ordered 10 pair of D-rings bolted through the floor.  In my case, maybe I
could have gone with e-track in the floor.  However I did add two rows of
e-track on each inside long wall of the 24b trailer.  Absolutely great for
strapping stuff upright to the side walls.
I also purchased a 100b roll of hi-strength 2b webbing.  Made up custom
tie-downs with an adjustable loop (instead of a basket) to facilitate all the
various size tire/wheels that I have (everything from 13b Corvair wheels to
36b horseless carriage wheels).  The best choice (for me) was to find hd
ratchets and I selected ALL STAINLESS STEEL construction.  Somehow my
old ratchets were always corrosion prone and became difficult to operate.  Now
Ibve got a ratchet that feels like a Snap-On tool!  I like to tie each
corner wheel
down tight.  This removes the strain on all the suspension and chassis.  I
donbt
like to tie a vehicle down by trying to pull the axels apart.  Also, if for
some
reason I lose a tie down, all the remaining wheels are still firmly anchored.
Another recent change was to fix the HEAVY tailgate.  My trailer manufacturer
tried to compensate for the heavier and taller ramp/door by simply
cranking down on the assist spring.  I eventually went to my local garage door
shop in town and they calculated the true loads and replaced the overhead
spring with a replacement that had fewer winds but larger wire diameter.
Now I can actually lift up and lay down the entire rear door/ramp with one
finger (itbs easier with two or three fingers).  Big change.
I also had the manufacturer fit one of those manual slide out steps seen
on RV rigs, this was for the man door.  They also included a hand grip to
assist in entering the rig.
Ibve also upgraded my Load Range D tires to Load Range E.  Ibm keeping the
shredded sidewall of the bexplodedb Load Range D tire as a future wall
decoration in the new garage addition.
Ibm planning on switching out the screws (on the interior white walls and
ceiling) to pop rivets.  The vibration of travel loosens the existing screws.
Ibve added a spare tire mount to the front exterior wall.  While I did order
the 120V cable system with some interior lights, I havenbt really needed
them.
Someday I may add a rear trailer camera and tie it into my backup camera on
my diesel rig.  I do not like the snap-tite plastic clearance lights covers.
Too
easy to come off while traveling.  Maybe I need to clean and reinsert the push
on
covers, but with a drop of clear RTV to keep them on.  Typically re-pack all
wheel
bearings every other year.  Had to replace two sets of wheel bearings after
not
repacking them for 4 years.
I recently switched to Andersenbs weight distribution hitch with anti-sway.
Go here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRoQ_yQZQwQ
to see the video.  Ibm very pleased with it.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

[email-masked]

---

From: David Hillman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 14:32:24 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 9 Sep 2015, Mike Rambour wrote:
> Open trailer with beaver tail, I personally have never seen a reason for a 
> enclosed trailer.

    OT, but having had both, you will pry my box trailer from my cold dead 
hands.

    Reasons:

 	1. Weather.  I used to have hundreds of pounds of snow and ice 
collected on my open trailer and the entire front of the racecar after a 
couple hour tow.  Even if you don't tow in winter like I do, it probably 
still rains where you are.  I used to have to have (operable) windows in 
my racecars, when I had an open trailer.  No more.  No more glass 
exploding all over me in a crash.  No more foggy or opaque Lexan.

 	2.  Everything doesn't have to be in the racecar or in the truck. 
I have tool boxes and other storage in the trailer.  Some things can just 
be tossed in.

 	3.  Ramps!  No more pulling the ramps out from their under-deck 
storage, fussing around with getting them in place, putting them away, 
getting them back out to load, etc.  Drop the door, drive in, done. ( 
Admittedly, slide-out and fold-down ramps are not as bad... )

 	4.  Storage.  The racecar sits in the trailer in storage most of 
the year.  Don't have to worry about the racecar leaking in the rain, 
baking in the sun, getting infested with rodents, etc.

 	5.  Safety.  Other drivers don't gawk at whatever I'm hauling, 
which means they are looking at the road ( as much as they ever do, anyway 
).  Cops don't see a racecar, either, and I am just fine with that.

 	6.  Regarding one trailer... I've only had one at a time. 
I've hauled construction debris in a box.  Brought home 2 tons of stone 
that was loaded by fork truck.  A tree, once.  Moved my sister-in-law's 
three bedroom house half across the country ( loaded floor-to-ceiling 
front-to-back ).  Picked up a friend's new roofless project car, got 
caught in a thunderstorm on the way home... no problem.  I could camp in 
it, if need be.  The only thing I've ever moved that would've been a lot 
harder with an open trailer was a backyard play set for a friend.  We'd 
have had to disassemble it, but instead, we had about 12 people carry it 
out and set it on an open car hauler.  It was tall as hell, but it made 
it.

    How much do you take to the dump at a time?  I'd buy a little Harbor 
Freight 4x8 trailer, load that with trash, and then put it in the enclosed 
trailer for the trip to the dump before I'd let that be my reason to get 
an open hauler ;)

[email-masked]

---

From: Brad Kahler <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 16:22:48 -0400

Having started this thread I would say it's starting to cover areas that I
had not originally intended (or thought of) but the information that is
being posted is good stuff and I'm glad it's being posted.  I had never
really looked closely at the dynamics of just what happens with a towed
vehicle, it's suspension and how it's tied down.  I can see I need to
review the methods that I use and plan accordingly.

With that being said I look forward to more posts about trailers, towing
dynamics and how trailers are being configured and used.

Thanks!

Brad

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 1:24 PM, John Innis <[email-masked]> wrote:

> damage...a

[email-masked]

---

From: David Hillman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 16:59:03 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 9 Sep 2015, Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
> Here?s what I?ve learned:

    Since we're on the topic; two simple little things that make hauling 
cars much easier for me.  Both came on my current trailer, but I will 
install them on my next x trailers.

    Tie-down hangers.  Just two little pieces of aluminum angle, with a few 
holes drilled in one leg, mounted to the top of the walls roughly above 
each floor d-ring.  Unhook the tie-down from the car, and hang that end on 
the up on the wall.  The opposite end always stay hooked to the d-rings, 
but out of the way.  I can drive in and be securely tied-down in under a 
minute, if necessary.

    Floor-level wall-mounted E-track.  Mine goes the entire trailer length, 
but really the handiest bit is between the human door and the wheel wells. 
Here I keep two E-track beam pockets, and a 2x4 spanning the width of the 
trailer.  Drive in 'til the front wheels hit the 2x4, and you're good.  No 
fussing around with positioning the car.  Hook the front tie-downs and 
pull the car against the 2x4, then attach the rears.  Not moving from the 
same spot every time.  Also doubles as an anchor point when using a 
come-along to trailer a dead racecar ( I could buy a winch, but some 
people pay good money for that workout ;) )

    Two more things I'll never be without.

[email-masked]

---

From: "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 14:40:21 -0700

David
Yes, I forgot to mention the tie-down hangers.  Ibve mounted
one set RR and the other LF
The perfect way to keep your tie-downs up and out of the way.
One other thing I made was some aluminum plates the drop in
to the gap near the floor hinge.  Useful when loading something
in a small castered cart or dolly to keep the small casters from
falling and jamming into the gap.  Nest them and store them
against the lower e-track near the rear of the trailer using a light
bungee.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

From: David Hillman
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 1:59 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Enclosed car trailer (random thoughts)

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4409/10607 - Release Date: 09/09/15
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

---

From: Brad Kahler <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:47:54 -0400

> but out of the way.  I can drive in and be securely tied-down in under a

Nice idea!  I would assume that the D-rings are pretty much located in the
outer corners of the trailer for this to work effectively.

> fussing around with positioning the car.  Hook the front tie-downs and pull
> the car against the 2x4, then attach the rears.  Not moving from the same
> spot every time.  Also doubles as an anchor point when using a come-along
> to trailer a dead racecar ( I could buy a winch, but some people pay good
> money for that workout ;) )
>
>
I've seen setups similar to what you describe but I've never looked to see
how they were setup.  I'm going to have to look at what sort of attachments
are available for e-track.

Thanks,

Brad

[email-masked]