Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Is this a shutoff?

From: Steven Trovato <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 09:47:13 -0400

Do modern codes really favor CSST or do modern businesses just favor 
it because it is easier and cheaper to install?  I don't really know 
the answer to that.  The answer probably depends on where you 
live.  In any event, I guess what I meant to say  is that modern 
codes and utilities do not favor copper.  At least around here.

At 02:09 AM 8/11/2015, John Miller wrote:
>On August 10, 2015 9:18:25 PM PDT, Steven Trovato 
><[email-masked]> wrote:
> >It is my understanding that modern codes favor black pipe.
>I think 'modern' codes for better or worse favor CSST.
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From: Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 10:45:13 -0400

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Steven Trovato <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Do modern codes really favor CSST or do modern businesses just favor it
> because it is easier and cheaper to install?  I don't really know the answer
> to that.  The answer probably depends on where you live.  In any event, I
> guess what I meant to say  is that modern codes and utilities do not favor
> copper.  At least around here.

I'm pondering how one would re-solder a pinhole leak in a copper gas
pipe system.  I can't think of a way that doesn't involve the solderer
becoming an involuntary astronaut.

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

[email-masked]

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From: Steven Trovato <[email-masked]> mail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 12:17:15 -0400

What I'm reading seems to indicate that you shouldn't be soldering 
copper gas lines.  You have to braze with melting point over 1000 
degrees or use other "approved fittings."  Here's a forum discussing 
it:  http://www.inspectorsjournal.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14742

As for the pinhole problem, on initial installation I imagine one 
could charge and pressure test the whole system with air or nitrogen 
or something.  Then redoing something wouldn't be any more hazardous 
than doing it the first time.  Of course, once the system has had gas 
in it, it's a different story.

-Steve

[email-masked]

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From: Scott Hall <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:45:42 -0500

Well...if I can't set up copper gas lines the same way I'd set up copper
water lines, copper is right out.  If I've got to learn a new skill, I
might as well learn how to join black iron to be leak free. I'll need that
when I set up the air lines in the garage, anyway.

I'm thinking I'll set up the system up to the point of connecting it to the
meter. Then I'll have someone come and pressure test it and connect it.
That way I'll know it's done right (because I did it), and probably cheaper
too. And also I'll mitigate the chance of sending my house into low earth
orbit.

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Steven Trovato <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> What I'm reading seems to indicate that you shouldn't be soldering copper
> gas lines.  You have to braze with melting point over 1000 degrees or use
> other "approved fittings."  Here's a forum discussing it:
> http://www.inspectorsjournal.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14742
>
> As for the pinhole problem, on initial installation I imagine one could
> charge and pressure test the whole system with air or nitrogen or
> something.  Then redoing something wouldn't be any more hazardous than
> doing it the first time.  Of course, once the system has had gas in it,
> it's a different story.
>
> -Steve
>
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From: John Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 09:49:07 -0700

> becoming an involuntary astronaut.

I guess you'd want to be isolating the area you're working on and 
purging it with something inert before you light up.

I don't imagine this kind of thing would be widely accepted by 
authorities overseeing much residential/light commercial construction.

John.

[email-masked]

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From: Steven Trovato <[email-masked]> mail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:04:03 -0400

Funny you should say that.  I did my air lines
with copper "just like water lines" in my
garage.  Other than the cost of copper, I haven't
really come up with any drawbacks.

-Steve

At 12:45 PM 8/11/2015, Scott Hall wrote:
>Well...if I can't set up copper gas lines the
>same way I'd set up copper water lines, copper
>is right out.B  If I've got to learn a new
>skill, I might as well learn how to join black
>iron to be leak free. I'll need that when I set
>up the air lines in the garage, anyway.

[email-masked]

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From: Scott Hall <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 12:30:52 -0500

Wait...you did your air lines in copper?

This is the part where I tell you no matter whether you're using type L or
M, eventually it will fatigue and explode. Copper shrapnel everywhere.

Yes, you *can* use copper. You can use Sch. 80, too, and you can use
soldered copper on gas lines (I've got a house full of it now, in fact).

(The benefit of black iron for air to me has always been the thermal
capacity of the pipe. But then again, I worked two feel from a Sch. 40 air
line for a few years in college. I'd never suggest anyone do that, but it
always does temper my panic about things somewhat.

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Steven Trovato <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> Funny you should say that.  I did my air lines with copper "just like
> water lines" in my garage.  Other than the cost of copper, I haven't really
> come up with any drawbacks.
>
> -Steve
>
>> water lines, copper is right out.C  If I've got to learn a new skill, I

[email-masked]

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From: Scott Hall <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 12:34:47 -0500

I'd think you'd just remove the section of pipe. You really can't solder a
pinhole leak shut, even on water lines. Eventually the solder will give way.

You can get a sleeve, I suppose, but I'd imagine you'd want to remove the
pipe to slide the sleeve over it anyway, which means removing the section
of pipe anyway...

I guess someone probably makes a sleeve that is split so you don't need to
remove the section of pipe, too, but geez...like someone else said, this
stuff goes boom if you mess up. Take the section out and put in a new
section.

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 11:49 AM, John Miller <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I guess you'd want to be isolating the area you're working on and purging
> it with something inert before you light up.
>
> I don't imagine this kind of thing would be widely accepted by authorities
> overseeing much residential/light commercial construction.
>
> John.
>

[email-masked]

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From: Steven Trovato <[email-masked]> mail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:28:39 -0400

I knew when I wrote that I would be opening that
can of worms yet again.  Go search around and
find any evidence of "copper shrapnel
everywhere."  What you say is true for PVC, but I
really don't think it applies to copper.  If a
pipe split or a joint failed, I believe that
there would be a lot of rushing air and the
compressor would work really hard to try to
pressurize the whole garage, but I don't think
anything dangerous would happen.  I think there
is greater risk to having an air hose fail and
whipping all over.  Copper seems to be a
legitimate choice for compressed air, though not
everyone's first choice.  Here is one source
(http://www.exair.com/en-US/Primary%20Navigation/Knowledge%20Base/Air%20Data/
Pages/CompressedAirPiping.aspx),
scroll down to "metal pipe" and then see "copper pipe" in that category.

-Steve

At 01:30 PM 8/11/2015, Scott Hall wrote:
>This is the part where I tell you no matter
>whether you're using type L or M, eventually it
>will fatigue and explode. Copper shrapnel everywhere.
>
>Yes, you *can* use copper. You can use Sch. 80,
>too, and you can use soldered copper on gas
>lines (I've got a house full of it now, in fact).B
>
>(The benefit of black iron for air to me has
>always been the thermal capacity of the pipe.
>But then again, I worked two feel from a Sch. 40
>air line for a few years in college. I'd never
>suggest anyone do that, but it always does
>temper my panic about things somewhat.

[email-masked]

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From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:35:58 -0500

The first attempt to send this got eaten by the moderator daemon.

> On Aug 11, 2015, at 08:47, Steven Trovato <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
because it is easier and cheaper to install?

Cast isn't much cheaper to install than black pipe.
Cast needs protection against nail strikes, dog bites, and lightning.  Doing
that eats up the installation cost advantage, most places.  Cut corners and
it's a lot cheaper. It will burn down sooner, too.

I wouldn't buy a house with csst, and I'd never install it either, other than
as an appliance drop.   I might have a different opinion if I lived in
California or other earthquake country. Flexibility is csst big advantage.
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

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From: Scott Hall <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:37:41 -0500

Nah, man, I was going to do all my air pipe in type M copper (because it's
easier for me to work with) before I gave in, so I won't give you a hard
time. And like I said, I worked with my face two feet from a sch. 40 air
line for years (before I knew better).

I'll never, ever recommend any one do air lines in anything but black iron,
but the whole, "You'll put your eye out!!!" is counter-productive, I think.
It goes against experience. It's not a great idea, but it's also not an
immediate death sentence. And I agree that the likely failure of copper is
a split, not an explosion. But it *can* happen (just like sch. 40 can
rupture catastrophically, even if when it blew up in our shop is was just a
loud noise with zero injury).

I agree with Benjamin--the real risk with copper is the solder melting if
too close to the compressor.

Having said all that, I don't mind doing my gas lines in black iron if
that's the 'right' way to do it. I need to learn how, and I'm wondering if
iron will be cheaper than copper, anyway. No matter what I'm going to have
normal shut-off valves--with handles-- places appropriately.

Scott

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Steven Trovato <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> I knew when I wrote that I would be opening that can of worms yet again.
> Go search around and find any evidence of "copper shrapnel everywhere."
> What you say is true for PVC, but I really don't think it applies to
> copper.  If a pipe split or a joint failed, I believe that there would be a
> lot of rushing air and the compressor would work really hard to try to
> pressurize the whole garage, but I don't think anything dangerous would
> happen.  I think there is greater risk to having an air hose fail and
> whipping all over.  Copper seems to be a legitimate choice for compressed
> air, though not everyone's first choice.  Here is one source (
>
http://www.exair.com/en-US/Primary%20Navigation/Knowledge%20Base/Air%20Data/P
ages/CompressedAirPiping.aspx),
>> This is the part where I tell you no matter whether you're using type L
>> or M, eventually it will fatigue and explode. Copper shrapnel everywhere.
>>
>> soldered copper on gas lines (I've got a house full of it now, in fact).C
>>

[email-masked]

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From: Steven Trovato <[email-masked]> mail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:59:08 -0400

The risk there would only be to the first soldered fitting, I would 
think.  You can always silver solder that one.  If it does fail, it 
is not going to explode or anything.

-Steve

At 03:37 PM 8/11/2015, Scott Hall wrote:
>I agree with Benjamin--the real risk with copper is the solder 
>melting if too close to the compressor.

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