From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jul 1 17:23:53 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42A172586A7A for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 17:23:53 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vn0-f49.google.com (mail-vn0-f49.google.com [209.85.216.49]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D46E2580535 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 17:23:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: by vnav203 with SMTP id v203so8837228vna.8 for ; Wed, 01 Jul 2015 16:23:59 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=T6aMhCJ6ty9ASfTUgJ9k9zK87bJ4xUjdb8GpZUEhKy4=; b=zZv3Lo776t7sjcO98s9/1DBYz9boCO/yGWWxJ0vP8oLPHb9y5GB8l1eDWnZo01M+S0 DsK2Gc8wSuR7Hk0R7yF8gRaQTuPZwHnQZB6OVwA3Ms4fCoG8ypuk89HjMjQCMdnt97Qf 0l9qDOx4kYFjC/VwACD4rtbnOJyjJUAQhaiMbohlgTEN6ECcMZCpqIb+1s1sOK4MTdhW DczyZF/M0PRz/aHGWp8el33x939x+ewlTWVHew4AXMOCviAm9oucnBM8jfgeeKf+PdSR YhGeZZyjfSVBAtGNWBH1bzX26ATzIgAg5Etch7FuFzpdTAyRymebi0dhUGC1xqVopJHx +RXA== Wed, 01 Jul 2015 16:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.200.1 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 16:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 18:23:59 -0500 From: Scott Hall To: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I'm asking you guys primarily because you know everything. Secondarily, this thing will end up in the garage. But I'm mostly not even pretending this is a shop-related question. I just bought a foreclosure. The previous owners gutted the kitchen on their way out. This is good because the house was cheap, and I'll be able to get the s/o the kitchen she wants, and someone's already done the demolition for me. But I'm going to live in this in the interim, and I need a refrigerator. Eventually, there will be a built in something-or-other that will no doubt cost more than my first car. Until then, I just want something that will keep things cold, and that I can later re-purpose for my fridge in the garage. So with that in mind, what should I buy? My main concern is simple, durable, and able to survive (eventually) in a garage environment. I'm not real excited about buying a diamond plate model, but beyond that aesthetics aren't too important. So...if you were able to buy a fridge for your shop (that would live on your house for a few months first), what would you get? Do top- or bottom-freezers last longer/use less electricity/whatever? Do you find yourself wishing your fridge did something it doesn't do now? Since it's mine and mine alone I can pick whatever I want. Thanks fellas. Scott _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jul 1 18:24:45 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8AC6258532A for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 18:24:45 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29AF25846A1 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 18:24:38 -0600 (MDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=qjZs1CQaik/EIf0STSya+KgVOqbPMpKS48bXir++qs5edfd8idm/J23zmRP/xSJh; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [172.6.13.60] (helo=[192.168.1.3]) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1ZASJB-0000MM-TI; Wed, 01 Jul 2015 20:24:54 -0400 Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2015 17:23:29 -0700 From: Brian Kemp User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 To: Scott Hall , "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Scott - I have a bottom freezer with french doors on the top for the fridge in my kitchen. The nice thing about the two doors on top is you don't need as much space to open the doors. My parents had a regular 1980's vintage fridge in their garage and you couldn't open the door all the way if a car was in the garage. We have a compact kitchen and it is much nicer to have the french door design compared to the older top freezer if there is more than one person in the kitchen. When looking for my current fridge I quickly eliminated a side by side because you couldn't put a frozen pizza in freezer side. That said, in your case I'd probably just get a basic white or black top freezer of large enough capacity for your family to save money. I'd even skip the ice maker and water dispenser since you are not likely to want them in the garage anyway and they take away space. Look for a 4th of July advertised special to save even more. Congratulations on the foreclosure. I got mine in 2009. It took 6 weeks of evening and weekend work to be able to move in, but we are in a great location and the house is now worth much more than we paid. If you have not already done so, I recommend a professional home inspection to help you identify any issues you might have missed. If you are in a termite area, also get a professional termite company to inspect the property. I would consider it to be a small insurance policy to catch things early before they become more of a problem I'm in the middle of a double bathroom renovation that involved both rot and termite damage. In addition, before you start putting the kitchen back together, make sure the subfloor is absolutely solid under the old fridge/dishwasher/sink areas in case they had water damage. Stiffen up the floor if needed if you intend to put in tile. I replaced my bathroom 1x6 diagonal board with 3/4" plywood topped with 1/2" plywood (offset joints) and it is solid - no cracked grout like the old floor. It took a day of work, but I'm very happy that I know all the wood is good and the rot is gone. Brian On 7/1/2015 4:23 PM, Scott Hall wrote: > I'm asking you guys primarily because you know everything. > > Secondarily, this thing will end up in the garage. But I'm mostly not even > pretending this is a shop-related question. > > I just bought a foreclosure. > > The previous owners gutted the kitchen on their way out. This is good > because the house was cheap, and I'll be able to get the s/o the kitchen > she wants, and someone's already done the demolition for me. > > But I'm going to live in this in the interim, and I need a refrigerator. > Eventually, there will be a built in something-or-other that will no doubt > cost more than my first car. Until then, I just want something that will > keep things cold, and that I can later re-purpose for my fridge in the > garage. > > So with that in mind, what should I buy? My main concern is simple, > durable, and able to survive (eventually) in a garage environment. I'm not > real excited about buying a diamond plate model, but beyond that aesthetics > aren't too important. > > So...if you were able to buy a fridge for your shop (that would live on > your house for a few months first), what would you get? Do top- or > bottom-freezers last longer/use less electricity/whatever? Do you find > yourself wishing your fridge did something it doesn't do now? Since it's > mine and mine alone I can pick whatever I want. > > Thanks fellas. > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jul 1 20:36:23 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 808FB258465D for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 20:36:23 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-oi0-f42.google.com (mail-oi0-f42.google.com [209.85.218.42]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B539258465D for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 20:36:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: by oigx81 with SMTP id x81so46003424oig.1 for ; Wed, 01 Jul 2015 19:36:30 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=JKGvs4u+rJacfuEbqr0GRvtXf0Pjx+90S7OziFQ5dQw=; b=tI56XC3mw5ErByWHNZewxBj6w2oxxZTuKvo3O9ngZvumBbI06o+37L7b+sJ7UZDdE6 N+g2PL/Lz0Tp+ntpjs5at90EhVSm+EbNu1YIVrML/9APu23QfqekaR2M8/56kXl6USGD Ob4GqAPl58ewehzVAxB7M18ie8UZqU1V8psN+oPG7YXCavi41YUBt9Vx2ZZqbewtCDqQ LGvPQ+jFV06bilWa8TyNR+HV5nqqbI+2BnZb9Li3BybNlZ6rSxsRII1Js/zZwAlYOZzR v1WDi7F6RIwwCcrIZ01gk31J2b7oWKThhh7XlhCCt+nKzrOAq6hMVaOloX8qFZQ+r64t r6+w== ko1mr27469274oeb.38.1435804590008; Wed, 01 Jul 2015 19:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.172.3 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 19:36:29 -0700 (PDT) References: Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 21:36:29 -0500 From: David Scheidt To: Scott Hall , shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 6:23 PM, Scott Hall wrote: > So...if you were able to buy a fridge for your shop (that would live on > your house for a few months first), what would you get? Do top- or > bottom-freezers last longer/use less electricity/whatever? Do you find > yourself wishing your fridge did something it doesn't do now? Since it's > mine and mine alone I can pick whatever I want. > In addition to what Brian said, consider buying a used one. Plenty of fridges get replaced because the owner bought something nicer. I wouldn't go too old, because they've got much more efficient, but I'd look. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jul 1 21:05:06 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704122587C34 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 21:05:06 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com (sub5.mail.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.129]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A342584EF1 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 21:05:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837B24F805B for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 20:05:15 -0700 (PDT) :content-type:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to; s=groupwbench.org; bh=E6u8tNogfgyPB/c6VbX0Q32DpWg= ; b=j2+8MOU4ThsEu63pTEAajwATf2oRbL36b0y6+fhJzGSEapTkIvbSDh9bknbz WGDt3BADuq74AuUycY3DzqzJvLbtaD3b+w6FU9hiLMAFGwLlJx7gBdTDXtRV1mBj rmUyoO7EKaLmIQpEKa6lj8IEpS/4t1cPeVZIl1iv28716ss= Received: from jims-imac.home (pool-98-118-108-149.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [98.118.108.149]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jamesf@groupwbench.org) by homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 248CE4F8057 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 20:05:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Franklin Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 23:05:08 -0400 References: To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Jul 1, 2015, at 7:23 PM, Scott Hall wrote: > So...if you were able to buy a fridge for your shop (that would live on > your house for a few months first), what would you get? Do top- or > bottom-freezers last longer/use less electricity/whatever? Do you find > yourself wishing your fridge did something it doesn't do now? Since it's > mine and mine alone I can pick whatever I want. I have a bottom freezer which I like because of the drawer, and french doors which I like because I have a narrow galley kitchen, but won't buy again if I have amore square kitchen. Do you have a Sears scratch & dent near you? Often some really cheap appliances with good bones and a giant forklift hole or footprint being the only issue. Otherwise, buy used like someone said. But, not more than ~7 years old since efficiencies change kinda fast. jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jul 1 22:01:54 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2ED5258503F for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 22:01:54 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.203]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A569225846F3 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 21:59:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Steve-PC.optonline.net (ool-44c2b798.dyn.optonline.net [68.194.183.152]) by mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPA id <0NQU00GMRDR0ZRN0@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for Shop-talk@autox.team.net; Wed, 01 Jul 2015 23:59:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2015 23:58:31 -0400 From: Steven Trovato To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <27D2EB41-F3D9-479C-8F0D-06DD5C9761BF@groupwbench.org> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net When the guys from my local appliance store deliver a new refrigerator and take away a really nice used one, it ends up back at the warehouse where the guy there sells it used. I don't know if this is exactly a sanctioned activity in the eyes of the appliance company, but I'm sure it happens all the time. The used ones are never advertised, but the local builders and landlords know the deal. Ask around. -Steve T. >On Jul 1, 2015, at 7:23 PM, Scott Hall wrote: > >Otherwise, buy used like someone said. But, not more than ~7 years old since >efficiencies change kinda fast. > >jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 07:35:21 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFAF42584F65 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 07:35:21 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from resqmta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net [69.252.207.36]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4AE32584AF3 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 07:30:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-07v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.103]) by resqmta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id nRVp1q0062EPM3101RX3bk; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 13:31:03 +0000 Received: from resmail-ch2-793v.sys.comcast.net ([162.150.51.64]) by resomta-ch2-07v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id nRX21q00S1P6glN01RX2za; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 13:31:03 +0000 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:31:02 +0000 (UTC) From: Tom & Marge FitzGibbon To: Scott Hall References: (Win)/8.0.7_GA_6031) Thread-Topic: Refrigerator Thread-Index: w/KrQKnPVH6LqC3mEircGM8WHrruZw== s=q20140121; t=1435843863; bh=Sq9/vfB0fY9QGO142eofHmLBSpREY6fOXFe3KBAQ/FM=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=u/ryXVqDMGqOvTCTiT39rpeiOXPtCUnqO9jVadntEexD7PEBCcZkcujBzJDKzQLOU iPrqpQnNyazflM3yhj4u4pcHVP4topbBQzz+hiajLiL1b2dxgv+7pRQNMNgSthTAwR iCP68y2EMlMovo1X7pGRPrGYJC2PMNmM/PosXWre3AAFXNS8NVih+8n/MaA3ZTXdt0 os15pS1gC6PDNYdAsXpNjaSmfRmkTAnH+E4JG1juu0saa+2I4blXPHH9cFA/pgRXCM XPx7jY24jBwVHnpFzFSrmOCeU34zTIuub01kMigZzehCnS7ScNRi6MMKEkTnfZYtYv UXksEGRgoUalg== Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Scott, Where is the house and is the garage heated and cooled? When we bought our new house a couple of years ago and went shopping for a new refrigerator for the garage (as a second fridge for the house, not as a shop fridge), we were told by several appliance dealers that a refrigerator-freezer is not appropriate for unheated space in NJ and using it in the garage will void the warranty. However, we found a Frigidaire unit that can be a stand-alone freezer or a stand-alone refrigerator at the flip of a switch. It has been great for us and gives us lots of extra storage (with no freezer space there is that much more room for "12 ounce shop essentials"). Of course, with 4 teenage children at the time we also bought one to use as a freezer so we had both spaces covered. If you only have room for 1 unit, this will not work for you. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Hall" To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2015 7:23:59 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator I'm asking you guys primarily because you know everything. Secondarily, this thing will end up in the garage. But I'm mostly not even pretending this is a shop-related question. I just bought a foreclosure. The previous owners gutted the kitchen on their way out. This is good because the house was cheap, and I'll be able to get the s/o the kitchen she wants, and someone's already done the demolition for me. But I'm going to live in this in the interim, and I need a refrigerator. Eventually, there will be a built in something-or-other that will no doubt cost more than my first car. Until then, I just want something that will keep things cold, and that I can later re-purpose for my fridge in the garage. So with that in mind, what should I buy? My main concern is simple, durable, and able to survive (eventually) in a garage environment. I'm not real excited about buying a diamond plate model, but beyond that aesthetics aren't too important. So...if you were able to buy a fridge for your shop (that would live on your house for a few months first), what would you get? Do top- or bottom-freezers last longer/use less electricity/whatever? Do you find yourself wishing your fridge did something it doesn't do now? Since it's mine and mine alone I can pick whatever I want. Thanks fellas. Scott _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 09:42:29 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741F82588281 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 09:42:29 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ie0-f175.google.com (mail-ie0-f175.google.com [209.85.223.175]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F43258826D for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 09:42:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: by iecuq6 with SMTP id uq6so59191148iec.2 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 08:42:32 -0700 (PDT) s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=NVIAYSHgV7zxEFcURmyuzXGc00uMwZ/eYNPZsqlWV5k=; b=F42exW0eEhiIVHVWQvBOGl15xUi895V8SMRrhaTO7gtldtlgJuc4P2A2WbbsWFIEk2 trOoYu4S0gKLY+umGO6aQmle5QRAb7faJQzTh4PORpPF9wMh8kMa+6ALoC9h6Wby4hO3 T/xuXNFiuZghtAFGmrDjjjvbvqVMjvtm5BRzc= d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=NVIAYSHgV7zxEFcURmyuzXGc00uMwZ/eYNPZsqlWV5k=; b=cXQfdGHcsgATj8L07HZDi2kOfoILRe4OuZQzYpGMvs1ZKGbsuNTF9OfvbmzGl04nfE Mrk1uzU4d5bWFb+3cBWbsRC8m34Y35+VBghW2FiB6/pbXEfstIHSuu6Htty/XSccMMJ9 cP+MbJP1aj42PMBVOG/iWt7BLV2eReeCNnzJPYEYDH0x/UDlJA/j/p4RngvB1lIRR/QO VOU/8KmYU/xMt51Ceg6+WMt+A1PKBsqD+hB88zV3P9U8AGO/rcXlRXIVlJLfa72/8fFh etj3aF75HHWRKdIF7VIYCFiD/SECrkRNooZQ4mYTIB66IxTQhJw6hrxSuB7/cWbY1bl7 xQzw== sb5mr44613059igb.13.1435851752448; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 08:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.142.194 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 08:42:32 -0700 (PDT) References: Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:42:32 -0400 From: Ian McFetridge To: Scott Hall Cc: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Minor comment, but when you eventually do move it to the garage, make sure you have an outlet for it that is not on a GFI protected circuit. It would be a shame to have the GFI trip and shutdown the fridge. - Ian _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 10:56:58 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E429B258950F for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 10:56:58 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.199]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC93D258950D for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 10:56:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Steve-PC.optonline.net (ool-44c2b798.dyn.optonline.net [68.194.183.152]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPA id <0NQV00D35DR7DFC0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for Shop-talk@autox.team.net; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:54:52 -0400 From: Steven Trovato mail.com> To: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Just out of curiosity, what is the main reason for the popularity of a fridge in the garage? Is it just to have a conveniently located beverage when you're working? A second fridge adds to the power bill, especially when it's an old inefficient unit that is demoted to garage status. It also takes up a bunch of space. I guess I can see it if it's a detached garage/shop that's far away. My garage/shop space is under the living space of my house. If I have to go upstairs once in a while to pee, then it's no big deal to bring down a couple of cans or bottles. For me, the main thing I guess is the room. I have a pretty big space, and I still have a hard time finding a place for all the stuff I have. -Steve _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 11:37:33 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE67825895BF for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:37:32 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D469F2585914 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:35:32 -0600 (MDT) References: <0NQV00D36DR7DFC0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:14:16 -0400 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 07/02/2015 13:14:05, Serialize complete at 07/02/2015 13:14:05 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Steve makes the point about a frig in the garage. I have to say that I'm with Steve on this. I have a 2500 SqFt garage and extra fridges in storage buildings, but I never see a need for frig in the garage. (Big caveat, I don't drink either.) I do have a microwave, coffee pot, dishwasher, oven, sink, and psydo toilet in there, but I would have no need for a frig. 8>) Sent from my Commodore 64 on a 2400 Baud Modem. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 11:41:55 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A19FF25895FC for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:41:55 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-lb0-f178.google.com (mail-lb0-f178.google.com [209.85.217.178]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D61258956E for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:41:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: by lbcui10 with SMTP id ui10so36310270lbc.0 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 10:42:06 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=/yTrvgcx7vwxL4p1rFhW661dUCm8gLGh548CpuJVvLE=; b=KLHhuvUX0RVOMidBQcmOEjkBKvDkj/fnp0wA6QFBi8JtgPy87EkKF12uV9oDHOkWir W4naHt9RXjh6mFXPINNmEb7sMMqA8/C1cvEzRLnmwCqJOPF/q7PUE+4iTc9xNuF9YVXN zF+qvfLP5xlQ0J9doqyhm3fqDNI2gss83ZMrgVHYMKIYmXeRLvWetvB/+HshXMz/zLvn NDPfXrAvcPGegwZZuybcKgrQzHXWBKj9l1nIzInZCxHTXiZoEzpHhd3BhidX6f3FOE9a WRNKQqrXQhridMJqOhd4mjst75pI0jGAhj1WSr7uxz7ajRSpNjIEluU0zW3Sdz5wLC9P 6uNQ== b9mr31749146lbn.46.1435858926442; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 10:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.14.98 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 10:41:46 -0700 (PDT) References: <0NQV00D36DR7DFC0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> From: Peter Murray Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:41:46 -0400 To: Steven Trovato Cc: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net We renovated our kitchen in 2011 and moved the then 5+-year-old conventional (freezer on top, single door on bottom) fridge/freezer to the garage - and it has been fine. My only complaint is that it doesn't have quite enough insulation on the bottom of the freezer door, and as a result there is condensation that appears there on more humid days. We don't have heating or cooling in the garage space, but it is fully insulated, so it never drops below 35F, even when it is -19F outside (rare here in Northern Virginia, but it happens). If you can insulate the garage, I do recommend it! It is handy having a fridge in the garage for beverages as well as for kitchen overflow. Keeps muddy kids out of the house if they just want a drink. The nice bottom freezer/french doors on top Kenmore Elite is excellent in the kitchen (it only has water on the door, with an auto-icemaker in the freezer, which takes up much less space). Ours has a satin-finish that simulates stainless steel, but is still magnetic. I picked it up at our nearby Sears Hardware, which had it at 50% off. My parents-in-law have an un-insulated/open outbuilding that has two fridge/freezers, and they run just fine for them year-round. Located in Montrose, CO, they see a broad swing of temperatures, from 100F+ to -10F. They're probably each over 15 years old, though. -Peter On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: > Just out of curiosity, what is the main reason for the popularity of a > fridge in the garage? Is it just to have a conveniently located beverage > when you're working? A second fridge adds to the power bill, especially > when it's an old inefficient unit that is demoted to garage status. It > also takes up a bunch of space. I guess I can see it if it's a detached > garage/shop that's far away. My garage/shop space is under the living > space of my house. If I have to go upstairs once in a while to pee, then > it's no big deal to bring down a couple of cans or bottles. For me, the > main thing I guess is the room. I have a pretty big space, and I still > have a hard time finding a place for all the stuff I have. > > -Steve > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 11:58:45 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACFF258960E for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:58:45 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from BAY004-OMC2S20.hotmail.com (bay004-omc2s20.hotmail.com [65.54.190.95]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 066D4258956E for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:58:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from BAY402-EAS196 ([65.54.190.125]) by BAY004-OMC2S20.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.23008); Thu, 2 Jul 2015 10:58:54 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 10:59:16 -0400 From: Jack Brooks To: FILETIME=[C2AE7BF0:01D0B4F0] Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net For me it is the regular fridge overflow. Jack --- Original Message --- From: "Steven Trovato" Sent: July 2, 2015 12:57 PM To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Just out of curiosity, what is the main reason for the popularity of a fridge in the garage? Is it just to have a conveniently located beverage when you're working? A second fridge adds to the power bill, especially when it's an old inefficient unit that is demoted to garage status. It also takes up a bunch of space. I guess I can see it if it's a detached garage/shop that's far away. My garage/shop space is under the living space of my house. If I have to go upstairs once in a while to pee, then it's no big deal to bring down a couple of cans or bottles. For me, the main thing I guess is the room. I have a pretty big space, and I still have a hard time finding a place for all the stuff I have. -Steve _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibrooks@live.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 12:22:08 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9DA32589526 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 12:22:07 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-oedge-vip.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.232]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A7F225859EF for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 12:21:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.248.153.253] ([172.248.153.253:3379] helo=rypc) by cdptpa-oedge03 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.5.0.35861 r(Momo-dev:tip)) with ESMTP id 20/84-09573-F1185955; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 18:21:20 +0000 From: "Randall" To: "'Steven Trovato'" , Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:21:16 -0700 Thread-Index: AdC06CuPjhXBcCAwS6ua1+NsvN3FCwACbQ7Q Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > It also takes up a bunch of space. FWIW, you can get smaller "under counter" units that take up a lot less floor space. Even a little "dorm room" refrigerator will hold a dozen or more of your favorite 12 oz beverage cans and still leave some room for storage under the bench. Depends a lot on what you do in your shop; but sometimes it's nice to just pop open a cold one without having to clean up enough to go in the house. They do cost something to run, but chances are that it's a whole lot less than you're spending on containerized beverages. -- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 12:26:19 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 799B925895E2 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 12:26:19 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-qk0-f182.google.com (mail-qk0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B602E25895E7 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 12:25:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: by qkei195 with SMTP id i195so57935613qke.3 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 11:25:52 -0700 (PDT) h=from:content-type:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:references :to:in-reply-to; bh=Lzu7Y3lxz8YMl6hTH8RujnZviT/TTaDz5pKqCm7ek5c=; b=wzCcVxIvZrewr46BpxFqcIZyy1Ed3+53zoCAB6Vzw51QxmEYXchdjoB7MMJLgHy4XB tULpd+RLIR4IgbsgosOopxypjLN9NwXF64ZMjMZkk1ZwpTPimL3B3EJk/sKdoJqz969b ooN+1VQqey3ubPBldM706WHuzGaxVvYvL3Sbbz7ytKiTE6puIDp+pJf7ET9J54X84U9k FoQV8nljzSfbDuXMRwXRid/1jSC2tjwY6dsvj7SYpfb1qeMvGhG4zEx+KhRVhynbA3xF c756D9tT64xc7kVTfFHKx6z4FV4sDYBEFEcUCxCV+oZHi8wdbh7buRUcvW7xz0s/a5kt FGXA== u46mr44916939qgu.5.1435861550616; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 11:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.126] (ool-4a5a398b.dyn.optonline.net. [74.90.57.139]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id b196sm3139803qka.14.2015.07.02.11.25.49 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Jul 2015 11:25:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Stone <1789alpine@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 14:25:48 -0400 References: <0NQV00D36DR7DFC0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> To: eric@megageek.com, Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I donbt want to hijack this thread, but what is a psydo (pseudo?) toilet. Or, donbt I want to know? > On Jul 2, 2015, at 1:14 PM, eric@megageek.com wrote: > > Steve makes the point about a frig in the garage. > > I have to say that I'm with Steve on this. I have a 2500 SqFt garage and > extra fridges in storage buildings, but I never see a need for frig in the > garage. (Big caveat, I don't drink either.) > > I do have a microwave, coffee pot, dishwasher, oven, sink, and psydo > toilet in there, but I would have no need for a frig. 8>) > > > Sent from my Commodore 64 on a 2400 Baud Modem. > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 12:55:57 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0899A25897E5 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 12:55:57 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-qk0-f169.google.com (mail-qk0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 676CB2585B2A for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 12:55:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: by qkhu186 with SMTP id u186so58477263qkh.0 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 11:56:07 -0700 (PDT) h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:message-id:date :to:mime-version; bh=D6AE1yVXoF1WSDjLYHpL2ONvWOeC+L1TP2f4ushUu6s=; b=ACm+kZhsV8L8bwpUsRTfFsqvTyGtDaNBjMbit/kjMtGPHpV8vnLtQfqn+v3kRCoNR8 M7l3niZI1NgPtD6FQdYYpCyDl/XDHhTGX5Ii6omLRq4SjMXJTAMsJxbV3Hfvl1qg8kZZ lMSrqNqjsPqHkka88PWuGNSw5urIDHeSPlPhL+KzD4E3n44V8lRvFuSNoAoiYSOAQcnd l1K/LWqX/KXnxM0SwIcMFOdhvyONwwwx2nKlm2XryTHiEQBJRoZA0zGUUF6TKue2Olpy cn+W3iNAuzIuvL9+j+ynMmGe0b9V9Nz8hc0Q2Z7QMyyGdvEadkdJNLISe20fgFUe/tqL 82/Q== 184mr47713982qhc.2.1435863367751; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 11:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.126] (ool-4a5a398b.dyn.optonline.net. [74.90.57.139]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id k133sm3162319qhc.35.2015.07.02.11.56.07 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Jul 2015 11:56:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Stone <1789alpine@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 14:56:05 -0400 To: Shop Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I had the timing chain replaced yesterday on my 2007 Honda Ridgeline (190,000 miles) and was told that the front brakes only had a little life left in them, but that the rotors couldnbt be turned so I needed to replace everything to the tune of more than $400. Ibd like to avoid putting that much more into the car, especially after yesterdaybs bill, and will probably just do the brakes myself. I have never done brakes on anything newer than a mid-70bs Toyota, but have researched the Ridgeline and the job looks fairly straightforward. First, though, I have to decided if I need to replace just the pads or if I should do the rotors while I am at it. I am not 100% sure I trust this dealer yet, especially after I asked some questions about the rotors. I was originally told they would be too thin after turning. Then I asked if they were scored or warped and he said they were fine but added something about not being able to turn them due to corrosion on the edges. So, I am not sure exactly why they canbt be turned. I asked about just changing the pads and he said that more than likely this would result in pulsing of the brakes due to smooth pads on worn rotors. First question to the group: do we agree with him on that? Which leads to my second question: has anyone here used EBC Greenstuff pads? (http://ebcbrakes.com/product/greenstuff-brake-pads/) I have been told that the bBrake-In Coatingb is basically a sandpaper finish that sands the rotors during the initial stops and smooths out the wear patterns from the previous pads. If this is correct, I might be able to get away with just a quick and dirty pad replacement. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 12:59:01 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B45852589762 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 12:59:01 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com (sub5.mail.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.129]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F12B9258464D for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 12:58:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A424F806B for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:59:11 -0700 (PDT) :content-type:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to; s=groupwbench.org; bh=aZ13Osq2JqJP/svT/EOtGiEDQNQ= ; b=E+5Bpm/dPB66B56geR+hk22xFnSMN447tKs2dwA6UrxEWjv0BcpUTck20gtt myhEeTHxc0TheGsQYieglI5AkPkkYwjdGGxQm4lCCFacAb+EfeZfIQxJrhxvqh7n Ebs+OAON0O6yZTWRYLfRE6OIaRJl1FETiTX6ap6g+vyIBAc= Received: from jims-imac.home (pool-98-118-108-149.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [98.118.108.149]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jamesf@groupwbench.org) by homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC4104F805C for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:59:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Franklin Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 14:59:09 -0400 References: <20.84.09573.F1185955@cdptpa-oedge03> To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net In my limited experience (2 units) the dorm fridges are so inefficient that they cost more to run than the beverages you'd put in them. I was spending $20/month on the cube one. jim On Jul 2, 2015, at 2:21 PM, Randall wrote: > FWIW, you can get smaller "under counter" units that take up a lot less floor space. Even a little "dorm room" refrigerator will > hold a dozen or more of your favorite 12 oz beverage cans and still leave some room for storage under the bench. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 13:28:22 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FF172589918 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:28:22 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D772589884 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:28:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.1.2.100] ([::ffff:10.1.2.100]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,AES128-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:28:32 -0700 id 00000000002800C6.00000000559590E0.00006EAF Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:28:31 -0700 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <6EABE6BE-4183-4010-88F5-B151DEEE116F@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 7/2/2015 11:56 AM, Jim Stone wrote: > I had the timing chain replaced yesterday on my 2007 Honda Ridgeline (190,000 > miles) and was told that the front brakes only had a little life left in them, > but that the rotors couldnbt be turned so I needed to replace everything to > the tune of more than $400. Turning rotors is generally a fool's game these days, and I see a few choices in reasonable quality replacement rotors for an '07 Ridgeline in RockAuto's catalog for $30-40 each. You can get adequate quality brake pads for that thing for $12 per end, or something better for $30. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 13:37:47 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B9002589934 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:37:47 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-qg0-f43.google.com (mail-qg0-f43.google.com [209.85.192.43]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32EEE2584737 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:33:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: by qgat90 with SMTP id t90so18772154qga.0 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:33:19 -0700 (PDT) h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=8+e6/Y0W61NB5WDqOtDjmXuJZGRSg7bu9vbt2k/vQYk=; b=cvDCyxGISuHmNPQgwbWtWC5dduHZOsYFh/A+lbb3hV16I1ZAqTYOzDNslabGZM5qpx 6qiT353LwfZIXFU52380KdOhEKVMppxkasajCNC0HGWK4H/8ccvFBwdJDywo1g6gpEff BwOzXV+5N9+LSi3Hbwbu4sm130y5fjJGtb58+FyUxKZTfceBgfijKmVPuqhYZCQqFqae 8eYjNSqWNbou/Fc5D1k/DY+11hWT266ARgnO17mtCs3qeSRDzN1AjxAY4d6XqMHMPu77 suC2+GBePToppyab9TOIumQfSFQA/KK5LaC3PWCgD/MTLP+uqsTGolfPuiP+Y+4JZjy/ mbsg== j90mr42575930qgj.6.1435865599720; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.126] (ool-4a5a398b.dyn.optonline.net. [74.90.57.139]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id f84sm3234270qki.1.2015.07.02.12.33.18 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:33:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Stone <1789alpine@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 15:33:17 -0400 References: <6EABE6BE-4183-4010-88F5-B151DEEE116F@gmail.com> <559590DF.8000305@milleredp.com> To: John Miller Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thanks John. My follow-up question was going to be on the value of inexpensive rotors. :) The only reason for wanting to avoid replacing the rotors (besides just being cheap) is because they are held on with two screws that seems to almost always rust in place. From all that I have read, those two screws turn this from a quick simple job to one that can take a day. Many report minutes to change the pads and hours to remove the screws. I was hoping I could avoid that, but probably not. So, any good recommendations on aftermarket pads and rotors will be appreciated. Jim > On Jul 2, 2015, at 3:28 PM, John Miller wrote: > > On 7/2/2015 11:56 AM, Jim Stone wrote: >> I had the timing chain replaced yesterday on my 2007 Honda Ridgeline (190,000 >> miles) and was told that the front brakes only had a little life left in them, >> but that the rotors couldnbt be turned so I needed to replace everything to >> the tune of more than $400. > > Turning rotors is generally a fool's game these days, and I see a few choices in reasonable quality replacement rotors for an '07 Ridgeline in RockAuto's catalog for $30-40 each. > > You can get adequate quality brake pads for that thing for $12 per end, or something better for $30. > > John. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 13:55:08 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D664825880BB for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:55:08 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-oedge-vip.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.231]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E10D82584B6D for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:55:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.248.153.253] ([172.248.153.253:4068] helo=rypc) by cdptpa-oedge03 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.5.0.35861 r(Momo-dev:tip)) with ESMTP id 59/1C-09573-72795955; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 19:55:19 +0000 From: "Randall" To: "'Jim Franklin'" , Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 12:55:15 -0700 Thread-Index: AdC0+Tc3Ce54HUGJT/CcDqDkIQKe6QABjhMw Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > I was spending > $20/month on the cube one. Wow! I never actually measured it, but my impression was that the ones I've had used a lot less than that! How much do you pay for a kwh? A little poking around turned up this model at Best Buy, estimated power 207 kwh/year, cost $25/year. Where I live, my marginal cost of power is higher than that (about $.16 last time I looked), but still less than $3/month. http://tinyurl.com/pf9w4vd Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 14:23:14 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FC62585CD4 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 14:23:14 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ie0-f173.google.com (mail-ie0-f173.google.com [209.85.223.173]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2759225804D1 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 14:22:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: by iecuq6 with SMTP id uq6so64377104iec.2 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 13:23:05 -0700 (PDT) s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=CuqV0Maadb9On5xQzSeAx3yu/69wcX8w7Bo2eR2UKRs=; b=AwuN08s92aSjRGMdtwK+dORLTfE3jbiQLOLrVnpKkKPKl7ivMWzFzlcCtL2dO5M4AI QLpfQoMq/kfddirxH8cJyogXB9sg8AASh8o+bkt78SzvASCSB398M3hyAq3vg+/r2X3R uURmPdeMo3PigjLgsSuoJj/Ml9u/elcLcnBaM= d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=CuqV0Maadb9On5xQzSeAx3yu/69wcX8w7Bo2eR2UKRs=; b=D/v5kap+LxpIdDiZ1ndEiiXSZsCUgyY8eAXxLaIo5HT4PctSM9+LzdE3XrkKblfU/n nVAKkV9XWrzilspM+ybLRbicZe9lyh6s0IfyFD/dZDTxaBPl2BFtdofLSmms5dml2CLq 8fDagDfVkIZzRias1AcNUc4vB3rBqSpzoaoMpf95U5hyvZNgEjFiqVBm+aemVInXItmw HFS/megitv/7yIY9JK/Ql4NyJr2E3nXsyYbO6LJ1MA3zjimsUKvmHP9HdpbvS8GHXOtE G5RRPMqAp4P2A+OP9QUH80W4VW81zb1mmKidvvZsJIeU9s5yGTU/4Ag1KgkSvUshC4zo U2WA== k96mr47462569ioi.7.1435868585814; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 13:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.142.194 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:23:05 -0700 (PDT) References: <6EABE6BE-4183-4010-88F5-B151DEEE116F@gmail.com> <559590DF.8000305@milleredp.com> <68867B3A-DADE-4382-881F-0DFDE70DD2F5@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:23:05 -0400 From: Ian McFetridge To: Jim Stone <1789alpine@gmail.com> Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I think the reason most shops turn rotors is to get rid of uneven brake pad deposits that will cause chatter/vibration/pulsing. You could cleanup the rotors with a 3M scotch brite pad (also have them for drills). I use a flex hone to clean-up my rotors before new pads. http://amzn.com/B007INTEFY Ian _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 14:53:33 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DB6425895D4 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 14:53:33 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com (sub5.mail.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.129]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB46F2584963 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 14:52:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87EA66B8317 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:53:15 -0700 (PDT) content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s= groupwbench.org; bh=EuPTMax325f2vQ3BK++V8ON5Ir8=; b=hWPKBoiPuW/A Rdw1ygcBR0fK8nvyPBbYSzxNAqnjI6FZt5qe/uS0RHBUpBvoZGKss1gExMUl4MpK 3V1xTlTLsMY08PGdWMnzzUiKJ3mynGZMiZygRHiDjJyy/D75oHxRRIuFSLhjiLl+ gspyv2F7xdEK0JBOXid9F+OUsWeyTf8= Received: from jims-imac.home (pool-98-118-108-149.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [98.118.108.149]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jamesf@groupwbench.org) by homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1D2496B826E for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:53:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Franklin Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:53:13 -0400 References: <59.1C.09573.72795955@cdptpa-oedge03> To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Jul 2, 2015, at 3:55 PM, Randall wrote: > >> I was spending >> $20/month on the cube one. > > Wow! I never actually measured it, but my impression was that the ones I've had used a lot less than that! > > How much do you pay for a kwh? > No idea, the bill is divided into so many separate services, and it changed every 6 months with the fuel auctions. Looks like about $0.16 now, it was $0.22 last winter. I didn't throw a Kill-a-Watt on it, so I could be mistaken, but the bill dropped back down as soon as I stopped using it. jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 15:23:42 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C6325899A2 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 15:23:42 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ig0-f182.google.com (mail-ig0-f182.google.com [209.85.213.182]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 608FB25849E6 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 15:21:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: by igblr2 with SMTP id lr2so128915932igb.0 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 14:21:53 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:cc :content-type; bh=ZslqepxKC6KTvHdmXlSTN0x0GArB9d/hdIjXI/blC58=; b=emviUpG1a/NHN3R9HcHD5nHAvi9pYiJbhzeiQIEs75yJrr2GA81YZksWoKScSBqRex aHD3B5hB+PcKwh1MvgXE7Npi8yEJhRD3JmNNV/k7J5N7yX7MjoI/AaADOrQ+C5B4esWP lhAhhnviwPzNboULP9BZWclzbKVh1XmaJubJEYEFirFjtECamRaiYqExXRcDJDmEhoY7 +MArWHut0aKQHVKdDwoUCZYZvWxjkJ3EWTNrhMTuX1bkGAAr3Am7jdc5UD4D2rVmS8dE muRdi5uScd72FLcKmIrMcWlvkwXNjS7Fo4ADtMioTkxbkIZ+YOIKUwPUI5idL6sCrSZR M3Pw== kq14mr14265963icb.23.1435872113140; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 14:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.101.227 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 14:21:53 -0700 (PDT) References: <20.84.09573.F1185955@cdptpa-oedge03> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 17:21:53 -0400 From: Jeff Scarbrough Cc: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Refrigerator Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > In my limited experience (2 units) the dorm fridges are so inefficient that > they cost more to run than the beverages you'd put in them. I was spending > $20/month on the cube one. In my garage, which has mostly seen the small dorm fridge and the compressor as the only steady loads, I seem to use about 12 - 14 kWh when it's just the fridge, and 30 - 50 kWh when I add the compressor. But I pay about 8 cents a kWh, so it's not that big a deal. Costs me $19 a month just to have the meter. The bill is typically $20 to $25 a month. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 16:09:02 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF272589A2E for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:09:02 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.200]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5BC625886A8 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:05:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Steve-PC.optonline.net (ool-44c2b798.dyn.optonline.net [68.194.183.152]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPA id <0NQV00JE7S19QOM0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 18:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 18:04:44 -0400 From: Steven Trovato To: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Jim, I haven't worked on any Hondas in a while, but I would think it should be well within your capabilities, if you have done brakes on older vehicles in the past. The internet takes all the mystery out of this stuff. You can read how to do it, watch a video on how to do it and hear of the problems encountered by others. As for rotors, nobody turns them anymore. They are made thin to start with and making them thinner makes them more prone to warping from heat. I don't know how much of the issue is actually technical and how much is just economics, but that's the way it is. I don't think it is really wrong to replace pads and reuse the rotors if they are not scored or warped. Sure, it might be a better job to replace them, but it all depends on a lot of personal decisions regarding your finances and plans for the vehicle. The car won't be unsafe. I don't really see why a car that wasn't pulsing before would pulse with new pads and old rotors. I've never heard a dealership service writer say your rotors are fine. Sometimes they will tell you that you have to replace all the calipers as well. They have a strong incentive to up-sell. As for those EBC pads, I really wouldn't count on that coating doing much. I think it's more of a break-in thing. Use whatever pads you like. Well, having said that, I would use the same type of pads. If OEM was ceramic, use ceramic. If OEM was semi-metallic, use that. If you change the pad material, understand the pros and cons. I have had good luck removing rotor screws with a hand held impact tool like this: http://amzn.com/B004I9UOAA . One more thing. If you have done brakes before, I am sure you have managed to press the caliper pistons back into the caliper bodies. Usually a C-clamp is all it takes, unless there is a special Honda trick involved. If you haven't done brakes on a car with ABS, there are some who say that pushing the caliper pistons in is bad for the ABS components, pushing dirt back in or something. They recommend cracking the bleeder when pushing in the pistons, so the fluid comes out rather than flowing back. I have heard other people who say this is all crap and not to worry about it. It's your call. You can always take the opportunity to flush the brake fluid and put fresh in there. Just don't let the system run dry, because some ABS systems are very hard to bleed without the factory scan tool to command the valves to open and close in a special sequence. I'm about to start the same job on my wife's Toyota Venza. Good luck. -Steve _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 16:09:26 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E192589A4D for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:09:26 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-yk0-f179.google.com (mail-yk0-f179.google.com [209.85.160.179]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D2425886A8 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:07:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ykdr198 with SMTP id r198so80820948ykd.3 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 15:08:05 -0700 (PDT) d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=mfy5iYAcLWOGTfavtmgl0lyKVznJc/d8XAW1mWEJjJM=; b=azTD+oTBMkYK6K2Jdw41+pUOhH615Zme/WUpYUNLtJQJNXpIcAoeC39+XjiAkA1DcT axLcpVU+7D8gf9sLjXmDlx461QPdfyA/RWrXUc3AsI8Fj9r62njvGEBNB7uQ8dIfN8hE +CTipApCxQsQX4KKA2a8QFRwCsbTtlHBPLJYoykQNXGAyJgKyYAkaxsLa0nGgMjAnaTZ ZMgD/GuxOogBUlb5KmoZrK6rdtEGTl/3RDpyO3qDgcoiI+DsysqrBez4kipZgB3bgoZu cpPWQD4e+qJBBdXqlrUb9pUOuODFPVHvygQEcJiNFbbnzdkhaBuwzkwMo8EM3H7M3xMC TOyA== o64mr38540290ywb.21.1435874885071; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 15:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.129.53.2 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 15:08:05 -0700 (PDT) References: <6EABE6BE-4183-4010-88F5-B151DEEE116F@gmail.com> <559590DF.8000305@milleredp.com> <68867B3A-DADE-4382-881F-0DFDE70DD2F5@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 18:08:05 -0400 From: Doug Braun To: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net These days, it's not worth turning rotors. Don't those two little screws just keep the rotors from falling off when the wheel is removed? If they are stuck, you could just drill them out and forget about them. Doug On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Ian McFetridge wrote: > I think the reason most shops turn rotors is to get rid of uneven brake pad > deposits that will cause chatter/vibration/pulsing. You could cleanup the > rotors with a 3M scotch brite pad (also have them for drills). I use a > flex hone to clean-up my rotors before new pads. > http://amzn.com/B007INTEFY > > > Ian > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug@dougbraun.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 16:16:49 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8557D2589A68 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:16:49 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from BAY004-OMC2S19.hotmail.com (bay004-omc2s19.hotmail.com [65.54.190.94]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D6A258956E for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:16:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from BAY402-EAS95 ([65.54.190.125]) by BAY004-OMC2S19.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.23008); Thu, 2 Jul 2015 15:16:59 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 15:17:19 -0400 From: Jack Brooks To: FILETIME=[D0B28C40:01D0B514] Subject: [Shop-talk] FW: Re: Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net -----Original Message----- From: "Jack Brooks" Sent: July 2, 2015 6:13 PM To: "Ian McFetridge" , "Jim Stone" <1789alpine@gmail.com> Cc: "Shop Talk" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads You may have a band of rust intruding from the outer edge into the path of the pad. In this case, the rotor is toast and must be replaced. I have this on a chevy I own. Jack --- Original Message --- From: "Ian McFetridge" Sent: July 2, 2015 4:23 PM To: "Jim Stone" <1789alpine@gmail.com> Cc: "Shop Talk" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads I think the reason most shops turn rotors is to get rid of uneven brake pad deposits that will cause chatter/vibration/pulsing. You could cleanup the rotors with a 3M scotch brite pad (also have them for drills). I use a flex hone to clean-up my rotors before new pads. http://amzn.com/B007INTEFY Ian _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibrooks@live.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 16:41:25 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2232589AE9 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:41:24 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-qg0-f50.google.com (mail-qg0-f50.google.com [209.85.192.50]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35BE258085E for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:41:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: by qget71 with SMTP id t71so39716190qge.2 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 15:41:33 -0700 (PDT) h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=KCEpmE6AKle7Jalqsc6+gNbBZfGdfFiF2bgaLLmbA8g=; b=aHpQyzZrgfd3AB9aWBri9fA0kJLXBo/diHEQOz9RqItEPArLKkt74AcHM8ZA/fLisa +h61sPngb106vBQ5O6LinJuxqeZUMDp692ER2o0LcvbxpZLPmHmmSEEkIoZXOs518KBI YkRZgS63DCAJ1t/vx3KMRGh+lUdhG9pSd1zyfXZGoTNgwEDX6SldmdEMZOrB2viviyIn QBl86yOt/pyuAmRG684wXZwCBvr074bFvFgFzlWfp2FzGUmrcoxx5+4GMT2wjMmZoqHI /WiTqHl4oBdaO62/tcX3wGdMSeE6mPPG+mjVfYwXQe5/GE95w1FeNWRVe1Jk9DzoaNNF Rz9Q== j67mr46905585qgf.83.1435876893237; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 15:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [25.249.244.235] (ool-6bbc1bb0.dyn.optonline.net. [107.188.27.176]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id u10sm3480900qgd.14.2015.07.02.15.41.32 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Jul 2015 15:41:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Stone <1789alpine@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 18:41:31 -0400 References: To: Jack Brooks Cc: "" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] FW: Re: Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net That sounds like the explanation I got. I'll certainly find out. Hope to do this next weekend. Thanks. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 2, 2015, at 3:17 PM, Jack Brooks wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Jack Brooks" > Sent: July 2, 2015 6:13 PM > To: "Ian McFetridge" , "Jim Stone" > <1789alpine@gmail.com> > Cc: "Shop Talk" > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads > > You may have a band of rust intruding from the outer edge into the path of the > pad. In this case, the rotor is toast and must be replaced. I have this on a > chevy I own. > > Jack > > --- Original Message --- > > From: "Ian McFetridge" > Sent: July 2, 2015 4:23 PM > To: "Jim Stone" <1789alpine@gmail.com> > Cc: "Shop Talk" > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads > > I think the reason most shops turn rotors is to get rid of uneven brake pad > deposits that will cause chatter/vibration/pulsing. You could cleanup the > rotors with a 3M scotch brite pad (also have them for drills). I use a > flex hone to clean-up my rotors before new pads. http://amzn.com/B007INTEFY > > > Ian > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibrooks@live.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 17:25:34 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 528B32589C5C for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 17:25:34 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from resqmta-po-05v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-05v.sys.comcast.net [96.114.154.164]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908A12580861 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 17:24:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from resomta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.235]) by resqmta-po-05v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id nbQ71q00354zqzk01bQMvv; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 23:24:21 +0000 Received: from BigBlack ([73.193.52.153]) by resomta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id nbQL1q00M3JKs3M01bQLhL; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 23:24:21 +0000 From: "Bob Kegel" To: "Shop Talk" References: <6EABE6BE-4183-4010-88F5-B151DEEE116F@gmail.com> <559590DF.8000305@milleredp.com> <68867B3A-DADE-4382-881F-0DFDE70DD2F5@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:24:13 -0700 s=q20140121; t=1435879461; bh=Ug+Wo+rZadfOJPNg14bDJSrCcQe49Y+SSEpCmDEbFcw=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=kPG9WE5+VClV4ozgnfKFn/ZB1wUJDMYE8m4y8FcdKTxYmvVmu5czQx+DOWHlYE9V6 eGOXIDfr3KomyB4LP4SD8EoNILTUqOAl3NekYDrC8Q0mZ/3HUJsQayGVOUeQ1DFdrF uqSuFDhGZ7XN8uS8o4V8OzG+hNq7sE09RKjORN1rBuvD+/u8T1R2PJ8O5Xb49pEgj4 /rQJDEA+FGAREE90HwlB/paWfICLARaP8xMg4UD3w5gvtFxo+sTygw+xSEMlhSXLkk mfPnr0Ales6sgjG4wOfXK8gzaBi6I9xfLaKvBabxpjOJG4cekd1emzTQOnE+xnZIH3 ICZgrhNxWwfHg== Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Don't those two little screws just keep the rotors from falling off when the wheel is removed? My understanding is they are to keep the rotors from falling off before the wheels are installed, on the assembly line. Bob K _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 17:25:56 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A44D2589C87 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 17:25:56 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75CF2580861 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 17:24:09 -0600 (MDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=VaK1OniMZzgGsUr9Eh4puvQ/7H8qQ7tNBjqOOYcbP/q/+QNW7JmKAh+tTAyTSX5+; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [172.6.13.60] (helo=[192.168.1.3]) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1ZAnq4-0005Jb-0r; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 19:24:16 -0400 Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 16:22:55 -0700 From: Brian Kemp User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 To: Jim Stone <1789alpine@gmail.com>, Shop Talk References: <6EABE6BE-4183-4010-88F5-B151DEEE116F@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I don't recall any special challenges on my 2004 Odyssey when I last did those brakes. Be sure to properly support the calipers so the dust boots on the pistons don't snag on anything. You can test the little rotor holding screws easily. Just take the tire off and see if they come undone. Use a good screwdriver of the right size. If they come loose, you know you can change the rotor. You should be able to find the specs on the minimum thickness of a rotor to know how much life is left. I'm one of the ones that open the bleed screw before pushing the piston back in. If there is contamination in the caliper, I don't want that fluid going back up the system. I just put a small hose on the bleed screw and run it up over something high so no air goes in then down into a jar. A quick grip bar clamp is handy for squeezing the piston back in, unless you have a VW like my wife's. You will likely need to add some fluid in the master cylinder afterwards. Brian On 7/2/2015 11:56 AM, Jim Stone wrote: > I had the timing chain replaced yesterday on my 2007 Honda Ridgeline (190,000 > miles) and was told that the front brakes only had a little life left in them, > but that the rotors couldnbt be turned so I needed to replace everything to > the tune of more than $400. Ibd like to avoid putting that much more into > the car, especially after yesterdaybs bill, and will probably just do the > brakes myself. I have never done brakes on anything newer than a mid-70bs > Toyota, but have researched the Ridgeline and the job looks fairly > straightforward. First, though, I have to decided if I need to replace just > the pads or if I should do the rotors while I am at it. > > I am not 100% sure I trust this dealer yet, especially after I asked some > questions about the rotors. I was originally told they would be too thin > after turning. Then I asked if they were scored or warped and he said they > were fine but added something about not being able to turn them due to > corrosion on the edges. So, I am not sure exactly why they canbt be turned. > I asked about just changing the pads and he said that more than likely this > would result in pulsing of the brakes due to smooth pads on worn rotors. > First question to the group: do we agree with him on that? Which leads to my > second question: has anyone here used EBC Greenstuff pads? > (http://ebcbrakes.com/product/greenstuff-brake-pads/) I have been told that > the bBrake-In Coatingb is basically a sandpaper finish that sands the > rotors during the initial stops and smooths out the wear patterns from the > previous pads. If this is correct, I might be able to get away with just a > quick and dirty pad replacement. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 18:55:02 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C40C2589D78 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 18:55:02 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from eastrmfepo201.cox.net (eastrmfepo201.cox.net [68.230.241.216]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6864B2587860 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 18:54:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eastrmimpo110 ([68.230.241.223]) by eastrmfepo201.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.15 201-2260-151-145-20131218) with ESMTP id <20150703005511.IALZ27818.eastrmfepo201.cox.net@eastrmimpo110> for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 20:55:11 -0400 Received: from John-PC.cox.net ([24.254.213.227]) by eastrmimpo110 with cox id ncvB1q0034uwYHU01cvBFQ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 20:55:11 -0400 a=1uXzHskWtM6b6G3593e3IQ==:17 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=vggBfdFIAAAA:8 a=zOoktvdPAAAA:8 a=q6SfDYXhAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=-5XPbii05so4xoiyhAoA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=aav4MXMyVXkA:10 a=4zxjrV59PHAA:10 a=bz_d9vehOyUA:10 a=Ea2CuvU7lgIeVzV5:21 a=Yv2oWoEtgkvQQA6I:21 a=5lTkBuKmhM5g3w6jsa0A:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=lnji3Ku6BZMA:10 a=ororg4E4qSYA:10 a=upQCA6GsYCUA:10 a=b6t84zQLjXKgIcwZ:21 a=P2cJYvqCd5Uq5IlW:21 a=1uXzHskWtM6b6G3593e3IQ==:117 Authentication-Results: cox.net; none Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 20:55:12 -0400 To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: "John T. Blair" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I inadvertantly sent the reply to Jim only. So I'm reposting for the group. At 03:33 PM 7/2/2015, you wrote: >Thanks John. My follow-up question was going to be on the value of inexpensive >rotors. :) >The only reason for wanting to avoid replacing the rotors (besides just being >cheap) is because they are held on with two screws that seems to almost always >rust in place. From all that I have read, those two screws turn this from a >quick simple job to one that can take a day. While this is true, here are some comments: 1. These screws aren't required. They are there to hold the rotor on the hub while the car is on the assembly line. 2. To remove them, hit the screws with some PBlast before you start the job. In fact if you have a spare car, jack it up the night before and squirt the PBlast on the screws the night before you plan on working on the car, then in the morning before you start. 3. Using an impact screw driver like: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=impact+screwdriver to break the screws loose. I've never had any problems with the screws using this. If you have to drill them out, see if you can't find a left handed drill bit to start drilling on them. >So, any good recommendations on aftermarket pads and rotors will be >appreciated. I've used afftermarket rotors on my honda accord & civic, both my Chrysler mini- vans, and my Taurus. They all have lasted as long as the brake pads did. But usually when it was time to replace the pads, I had to replace the rotors again. But at $30 to $100 each versus what the dealership wants, I didn't mind replacing them. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948@cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 19:57:36 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B71258521D for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 19:57:36 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ob0-f175.google.com (mail-ob0-f175.google.com [209.85.214.175]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD3852580048 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 19:57:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: by obdbs4 with SMTP id bs4so61198777obd.3 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 18:57:43 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Vyv9RwHsC5LTsHHHjM0qYYY7qi28uxsdFw5Whv8bi0U=; b=bjdERYRMu//pf8N0Qc/FzHtu8Th60gkoqvw90bcrb6vrjd3Q5SLK6wTtXKO8GTe+L7 3ZCnaCVtt80c8caREbLhP6KTplIChgREDHrHIBM0PGfGjnr0smSbUMb5FKqJPBcmhPyD cXwJdz6VaSsDNsO93jN3t6vvV/jiih06m0fGJR4LO1RA6tnN6ar/AC5vxPx79j23JYxW A9TgBH+5jAaiOwgDRqBFaMBig3X4TQeXyn+zmTcup8W11WswUPz0sSUzChav6k2Nqfc6 IvkYeRdVHIWuFPUoY9Y8m2Djl1DegwQERp1Ggr7jH8DYvIL685F/2kdSReo0RIuSQ3wL VMdg== k10mr12688712oel.82.1435888663278; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 18:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.172.3 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 18:57:43 -0700 (PDT) References: <0NQV00JE8S1AQOM0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 20:57:43 -0500 From: David Scheidt To: Steven Trovato , shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 5:04 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: > Jim, > > I haven't worked on any Hondas in a while, but I would think it should be > well within your capabilities, if you have done brakes on older vehicles in > the past. The internet takes all the mystery out of this stuff. You can > read how to do it, watch a video on how to do it and hear of the problems > encountered by others. > > As for rotors, nobody turns them anymore. They are made thin to start with > and making them thinner makes them more prone to warping from heat. I don't > know how much of the issue is actually technical and how much is just > economics, but that's the way it is. Brake rotors do not warp. They wear unevenly because they're not installed properly (those screws serve a purpose, and lug nuts have torque specs and patterns for a reason.) or have too much runout. They get deposits of brake pad material, that can build up very unevenly, which causes pedal pulsation. If rotors are cut, they should be done on the hub they're going to be used, so that they have zero runout (spec is less than two thou on most things, a few things are +0/-2). -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 2 20:16:09 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FEAE2589E02 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 20:16:09 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ob0-f180.google.com (mail-ob0-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37DE425857AC for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 20:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: by obdbs4 with SMTP id bs4so61408776obd.3 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 19:16:20 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=5jipq8HU51LZLPbWMF+/8ddjZ3sHupYVwUowZNUD0HI=; b=B3wf9ZqZx+foUcRCc9dJi4gCFuSYHLvUSWMsD1A5LYC+kIDiuzvSPawh3nYjWla67M z1UXhhgZPE7JmW0LiEi/R8+t9M6Y+4hNnxBjRh+QL4pOFdQT1rWFcXqWLP+TCHKFkpmy zisLAHGAoKEOQKXSXWnGXQ78SkkjqP3tsd+RnHiO+FOXE7OUAtRoaFO6Klv4cYGYas17 v8z8Fxvj6OVa5hWPml1fG48p47EpyVLl0CmMw2Hum9LudAk/4Thv30Flhi3oiNjOWr7X 3s1xvYGRnvk05Ri7NVTP6qTNYtADwtyTRNizM/GLBS8QSK4b9O6e9sspQz3YgsYLKiMB 0M8g== k67mr1047549oia.88.1435889779959; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 19:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.172.3 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 19:16:19 -0700 (PDT) References: <6.2.5.6.1.20150702205431.04de2548@cox.net> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 21:16:19 -0500 From: David Scheidt To: "John T. Blair" , shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 7:55 PM, John T. Blair wrote: > I inadvertantly sent the reply to Jim only. So I'm reposting for the group. > > > At 03:33 PM 7/2/2015, you wrote: > > >Thanks John. My follow-up question was going to be on the value of > inexpensive > >rotors. :) > > >The only reason for wanting to avoid replacing the rotors (besides just being > >cheap) is because they are held on with two screws that seems to > almost always > >rust in place. From all that I have read, those two screws turn this from a > >quick simple job to one that can take a day. > > While this is true, here are some comments: > > 1. These screws aren't required. They are there to hold the rotor on > the hub while > the car is on the assembly line. > If that is the only purpose, manufacturers would have come up with someting substantially cheaper than drilling and tapping holes in the hubs. The screws serve to properly locate the rotor against the hub. Without the screws, the first lug nut you install does that, and isn't properly torqued for holding the wheel on. The later lugs are relatively over torqued, which bends the rotor, which leads to wear or pad deposits (depends on the pads: semi-metallics tend to wear the rotor away, ceramics tend to leave deposits), which leads to pedal pulsation and "warped rotors" (which aren't warped at all.). This problem is exacerbated by using an impact wrench to install wheels, and by improper order of tightening. One additonal step: clean the surface of the hub that the rotor bears on. If there's rust or crud, the rotor won't be square to the calipers, and it will "warp". -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jul 3 00:33:45 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD3C2584F80 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 00:33:45 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from resqmta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net [96.114.154.170]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91F4C2580352 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 00:33:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from resomta-po-17v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.241]) by resqmta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id niZY1q0025Clt1L01iZtks; Fri, 03 Jul 2015 06:33:53 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.100] ([50.168.107.76]) by resomta-po-17v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id niZr1q00E1evlWS01iZsKC; Fri, 03 Jul 2015 06:33:53 +0000 Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 23:33:58 -0700 From: Mark Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: s=q20140121; t=1435905233; bh=WiQiDW22dOo6CN25W9JPKB9ODESoV/GJ/I6n+Nd84kg=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:MIME-Version:To: Subject:Content-Type; b=fSdyjEHVtULAUYiZoPb8ZYBOhuPYWXQO/LhtmBRvD45p470l5A3f002D2YPu7oIc/ G5JZTs0CuC2k2GEtGcJsin0s726GfVm1lgzfaiMXfbMXWs9YVbWh5EBgwBTzHxPTYH izLqJ/iW3S9NjxEPpuL/qgXsyT1Q6Z2gLEm/gffmzy+z1K0AQBDVd1iPSzgn9VW8LF KzQp8FXtHfm3PC3mpQuWYpRSKnqJ6VasDf2vcenjoTIMa2oLoBO6Bb6Ct4FP1h1gq7 kK5EuT4r6POgBYD3uozhqAcGa8TRYke1GcT02w211bPrJ2F6VsgaL+LknT2fYvO6I7 3ol99VKqx8EKw== Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Fridge Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net To bring this back a bit to shop-talk related things: I want to put a good word in for LG refrigerators. Specifically: parts availability and price. I broke a latch on mine and put off fixing it for a long time, assuming the replacement 1 ounce piece of plastic would cost $30. It was $2. And I looked up various other parts that other manufacturers always charge a ton for, like replacement drawers and shelves, and was equally pleasantly surprised. It says a lot that normal pricing on replacement parts is now rare enough that it gets mentioned, but that is another thread entirely. Regards, Mark Miller markmiller@threeboysfarm.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jul 3 05:49:33 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5514025844BD for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 05:49:33 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vn0-f48.google.com (mail-vn0-f48.google.com [209.85.216.48]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D86DF25805B5 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 05:49:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: by vnbf1 with SMTP id f1so4280470vnb.10 for ; Fri, 03 Jul 2015 04:49:40 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=sTaAf7+1L06f23oW/Pgxb1Yo+nFJcJrlNGaMssoZSec=; b=BjxVrSUtCaocsGP4b2qKaluyNCioViC/PS8V4Z2tXBHuKSmgLVvd9VGyGNjn2uFD5R whMQaKmAbS2skXjAc2fMhUHjXdHvWpcJvuGZShxsBoD5qEI5jVVfkYoNimzUTlpROevM TnvckKbbFanzyr2egmNm59f19J2OfSWbCnVpP5VxbnlMotxoeAhL1L8dOJPJRWSdQHRa ExuqxuKb5iIna4L5xajPgAGkVHHXIfk7nXUPWQcIyh+o7bh4M2+bqv8uIcMysN/IEfaF Rt8s4cXcypa/s1jfmg1od1QjJZH81REC7YLS5ztAmYm2XVueoYgfKUeDhvVcyxi0GBkm 77uA== rz4mr35951309vdb.61.1435924180307; Fri, 03 Jul 2015 04:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.92.75 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 04:49:40 -0700 (PDT) References: <6.2.5.6.1.20150702205431.04de2548@cox.net> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2015 07:49:40 -0400 From: Larry Spector To: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net >From personal experience, when it comes to removing those rotor screws an impact screwdriver is worth every penny. This is the one I have, and it works every time: http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-impact-driver/p-00947641000P -Larry On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:16 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 7:55 PM, John T. Blair wrote: > > I inadvertantly sent the reply to Jim only. So I'm reposting for the > group. > > > > > > At 03:33 PM 7/2/2015, you wrote: > > > > >Thanks John. My follow-up question was going to be on the value of > > inexpensive > > >rotors. :) > > > > >The only reason for wanting to avoid replacing the rotors (besides > just being > > >cheap) is because they are held on with two screws that seems to > > almost always > > >rust in place. From all that I have read, those two screws turn this > from a > > >quick simple job to one that can take a day. > > > > While this is true, here are some comments: > > > > 1. These screws aren't required. They are there to hold the rotor on > > the hub while > > the car is on the assembly line. > > > > If that is the only purpose, manufacturers would have come up with > someting substantially cheaper than drilling and tapping holes in the > hubs. The screws serve to properly locate the rotor against the hub. > Without the screws, the first lug nut you install does that, and isn't > properly torqued for holding the wheel on. The later lugs are > relatively over torqued, which bends the rotor, which leads to wear or > pad deposits (depends on the pads: semi-metallics tend to wear the > rotor away, ceramics tend to leave deposits), which leads to pedal > pulsation and "warped rotors" (which aren't warped at all.). This > problem is exacerbated by using an impact wrench to install wheels, > and by improper order of tightening. > > One additonal step: clean the surface of the hub that the rotor bears > on. If there's rust or crud, the rotor won't be square to the > calipers, and it will "warp". > > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt@gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lspector@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jul 3 07:14:57 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9D325859DA for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 07:14:57 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from BLU004-OMC2S12.hotmail.com (blu004-omc2s12.hotmail.com [65.55.111.87]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E923C25846BF for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 07:12:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from BLU436-SMTP128 ([65.55.111.71]) by BLU004-OMC2S12.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.23008); Fri, 3 Jul 2015 06:13:15 -0700 From: Jack Brooks To: "'Jim Stone'" <1789alpine@gmail.com> References: Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2015 06:13:11 -0700 Thread-Index: AdC1GD66uEI0q1yMTCmPHdsAQQCZRwAd4szQ FILETIME=[04960E60:01D0B592] Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] FW: Re: Brake Pads Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net OK Jim, so if this is the case, you have pitting in low spots, below the surface of the rotor. This rust will grow above the surface of the rotor taking out pad material and reducing the swept area and effectiveness of the brakes. It will appear as a narrower clean shiny area of the rotor. You should see rust under where the pad should be on the outer part of the rotor; this may be completely rusty or it could be polished rust; i.e. rusty pits. The rust will continue to grow both inward towards the axle as it does it grows outward from the pad, taking out pad material prematurely resulting in less and less swept area and reduced braking. If you can confirm that the rust has invaded the swept area of the rotor, plan on replacing the rotors. It's not a "must do this weekend" but it is affecting the front to rear brake bias and over time could become enough to make a difference. Jack -----Original Message----- From: Jim Stone [mailto:1789alpine@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 3:42 PM To: Jack Brooks Cc: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] FW: Re: Brake Pads That sounds like the explanation I got. I'll certainly find out. Hope to do this next weekend. Thanks. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 2, 2015, at 3:17 PM, Jack Brooks wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Jack Brooks" > Sent: July 2, 2015 6:13 PM > To: "Ian McFetridge" , "Jim Stone" > <1789alpine@gmail.com> > Cc: "Shop Talk" > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads > > You may have a band of rust intruding from the outer edge into the path of the > pad. In this case, the rotor is toast and must be replaced. I have this on a > chevy I own. > > Jack > > --- Original Message --- > > From: "Ian McFetridge" > Sent: July 2, 2015 4:23 PM > To: "Jim Stone" <1789alpine@gmail.com> > Cc: "Shop Talk" > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake Pads > > I think the reason most shops turn rotors is to get rid of uneven brake pad > deposits that will cause chatter/vibration/pulsing. You could cleanup the > rotors with a 3M scotch brite pad (also have them for drills). I use a > flex hone to clean-up my rotors before new pads. http://amzn.com/B007INTEFY > > > Ian > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibrooks@live.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jul 4 08:22:46 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B38F25852DA for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 08:22:46 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (sub5.mail.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.129]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3157F2584EA6 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 08:22:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4390B56405C for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 07:22:48 -0700 (PDT) :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:message-id:date :to:mime-version; s=groupwbench.org; bh=De7cZFdC2VGKOA3ebRvK8aen vSI=; b=FnLIAqQ0vDS8/DISe6Wd3G73QB6gFOLHeN/kzrOEcJFcs49EOCbStc7e h9i4Wvxcn7hqnMrutUta9pt2bMVVjXquv58jcj6QHGeRW3UEfRrZtSgZPB8xIC1A z9q1TRDfjA0CwAbEXHXKGlxxN6j4Ebf9w0BB0vh1vhGE51UPT6U= Received: from jims-imac.home (pool-98-118-108-149.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [98.118.108.149]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jamesf@groupwbench.org) by homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D0834564057 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 07:22:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Franklin Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2015 10:22:46 -0400 To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Deck drain grate? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net My Trex-style deck boards were installed flush against the sheathing under my sliding glass doors, and the flashing was installed such that it trapped all the water. Therefore, the whole sill plate and rim joists are rotten. Since I need to pull up the deck boards anyway to redo the flashing, I'd like to replace the first board with a metal grate that will drain to the ground below, similar to the things you stomp on to remove snow from your boots, but only 5.5" wide. I'm searching but clearly not using the right terms. Are these called something specific? Closest I'm getting are french drain gutters with a plastic top that doesn't look sturdy enough to stomp on. thnaks, jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jul 4 08:52:18 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6833525857B8 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 08:52:18 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plsmtpa07-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa07-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.237]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52752584839 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 08:51:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from StevePC ([67.160.74.98]) by p3plsmtpa07-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with id oEsF1q00B27EXdf01EsGuS; Sat, 04 Jul 2015 07:52:16 -0700 From: "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA" To: "Jim Franklin" , References: <1AA50648-F237-4431-AF10-0208E3951F4B@groupwbench.org> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2015 07:52:16 -0700 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Deck drain grate? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I did a Google Images search on Garage Floor Drain Covers and found a number of interesting places to look. Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA From: Jim Franklin Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:22 AM To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Deck drain grate? My Trex-style deck boards were installed flush against the sheathing under my sliding glass doors, and the flashing was installed such that it trapped all the water. Therefore, the whole sill plate and rim joists are rotten. Since I need to pull up the deck boards anyway to redo the flashing, I'd like to replace the first board with a metal grate that will drain to the ground below, similar to the things you stomp on to remove snow from your boots, but only 5.5" wide. I'm searching but clearly not using the right terms. Are these called something specific? Closest I'm getting are french drain gutters with a plastic top that doesn't look sturdy enough to stomp on. thnaks, jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gsteve@hammatt.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6030 / Virus Database: 4365/10156 - Release Date: 07/04/15 _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jul 4 10:48:52 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5952E2586376 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 10:48:52 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from filter04.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net (filter04.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net [199.224.80.234]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A52B2586263 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 10:43:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by filter04.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98D4D28FE5C for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 16:44:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from relay04.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net ([199.224.80.247]) by localhost (filter04.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net [199.224.80.234]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id CTcEA60-tLX0 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 16:44:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [50.34.156.198]) by relay04.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 51AC72F8098 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 16:44:05 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2015 09:44:21 -0700 From: Dave Cavanaugh User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <1AA50648-F237-4431-AF10-0208E3951F4B@groupwbench.org> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Deck drain grate? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Also try "trench drain cover". On 7/4/2015 7:52 AM, Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA wrote: > I did a Google Images search on Garage Floor Drain Covers > and found a number of interesting places to look. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jul 4 11:27:35 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95FC92585B19 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 11:27:35 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from homiemail-a83.g.dreamhost.com (sub5.mail.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.129]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E7B825845FE for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 11:27:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from homiemail-a83.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a83.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87D45E078 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 10:27:42 -0700 (PDT) :content-type:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to; s=groupwbench.org; bh=2XRNNaQdqdl9JcTxV+x1NMkCss8= ; b=E9Inh+cHTKtviXJVM2/ZUR7xQptUUZ8USl0D+6iyhq2TUqgLGHlXlLpoceO7 0a2n+ALv6F4yn/zdcQvFqOocHk/GqVxN7Zs4TnAy/JciydF0pBnO++0u4/u1fMZJ HQMpSmam9CiM/r/O/eQYo8GBeYLJnsbkvcnX9vt0ki3HW3s= Received: from jims-imac.home (pool-98-118-108-149.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [98.118.108.149]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jamesf@groupwbench.org) by homiemail-a83.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A31235E063 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2015 10:27:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Franklin Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2015 13:27:40 -0400 References: <1AA50648-F237-4431-AF10-0208E3951F4B@groupwbench.org> <55980D65.6040907@frontier.com> To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Deck drain grate? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Jul 4, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Dave Cavanaugh wrote: > Also try "trench drain cover". Bingo! Thanks! jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 9 21:46:58 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3263B2584E69 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 2015 21:46:58 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wg0-f41.google.com (mail-wg0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4DF62584E69 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 2015 21:46:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: by wgjx7 with SMTP id x7so238572461wgj.2 for ; Thu, 09 Jul 2015 20:46:43 -0700 (PDT) d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=NnaYbP1A7624pftHTxpc4ffdX3Gm/dJXuO4gARkzXPE=; b=jz9Sw+/1PhK0zv/U54PoDQICnEbjbN2zXsy5QF0RYbtKl++Sek9yOyvKr6e8Pd2ZrP ji97MHtnaEY5srk9+sN5volJKXmES8cLwHcl4APG8yDvqEY6/XIXTRUUzyETYfMVGWEE 9whVCUq+FiITSTmUXx0P3Ul4uZKnm9FBbZGl3IKQEYf7NndUaX3cLGV/Aa7z5SD3hn7i mIF6mi1JYHqExkzDFPzj9JzuSD6BJLJZeV5wFgLDNI8p+JeOPyrhrdrXxY9C8uUq6vzo 2WU/cRnotWcmz6YgMJSpIqdln2yywuMALcd2E3Pk2lgex6AEjK6OPhDfiIJ43is/G+Jw PQyQ== lf5mr39427093wjc.37.1436500003075; Thu, 09 Jul 2015 20:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.28.184.214 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Jul 2015 20:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2015 23:46:43 -0400 From: Doug Braun To: Shop-Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Spiders Everywhere! Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Hello, I was cleaning out my garage/workshop this week, and I realized it was full of cobwebs, spiders, daddy longlegs, and spider drippings beneath the cobwebs. They get everywhere! I live in a wooded area, which only makes the problem worse. Does anybody know of a safe and effective way to keep my garage from turning into Shelob's Lair ( http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Shelob%27s_lair )? Is there a better approach than just blasting it with Raid every couple of weeks? Thanks, Doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jul 10 09:12:45 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3696525860DA for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 09:12:45 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from gateway23.websitewelcome.com (gateway23.websitewelcome.com [192.185.49.180]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 889242584F3D for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 09:12:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: by gateway23.websitewelcome.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 00985632DEF7D; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 10:11:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gator3187.hostgator.com (gator3187.hostgator.com [198.57.247.151]) by gateway23.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E58EC632DEF5A for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 10:11:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from leexray by gator3187.hostgator.com with local (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZDZxo-0001sx-91; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 10:11:44 -0500 Received: from 99.101.202.234 ([99.101.202.234]) (proxying for 99.101.202.234) (SquirrelMail authenticated user lee@automate-it.com) by webmail.automate-it.com with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 10:11:44 -0500 References: Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 10:11:44 -0500 From: "Lee Daniels" To: "Doug Braun" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.5.2 [SVN] with any abuse report /usr/local/cpanel/base/3rdparty/squirrelmail/src/compose.php Cc: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Spiders Everywhere! Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Doug - My brother-in-law swears by "Demon" (a commercial name for Cypermethrin). His lake house and boat house were always covered in spiders, and he says that Demon keeps them completely controlled. Note that cypermethrin is a pretty serious pesticide and should be applied with care and away from pets/food etc. If you can't find it locally it's available in several forms from Amazon - http://amzn.com/B0035AM6NG . Lee On Thu, July 9, 2015 22:46, Doug Braun wrote: > Hello, > > > I was cleaning out my garage/workshop this week, and I realized it was full > of cobwebs, spiders, daddy longlegs, and spider drippings beneath the cobwebs. > They get everywhere! > I live in a wooded area, which only makes the problem worse. > > > Does anybody know of a safe and effective way to keep my garage from > turning into Shelob's Lair ( http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Shelob%27s_lair )? > Is there a better approach than just blasting it with Raid every couple of > weeks? > > Thanks, > Doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jul 12 08:43:29 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B56A62587CCF for ; Sun, 12 Jul 2015 08:43:29 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vn0-f45.google.com (mail-vn0-f45.google.com [209.85.216.45]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080092580464 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 2015 08:43:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: by vnbf62 with SMTP id f62so42252542vnb.9 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 2015 07:43:37 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=zw59E+V2kkR7fg6Fj/W42ZSCkkK7+j7jjqOg1s6knfU=; b=YvOxE3ztOl1+nWP74YsRBK6nmGWr4c1XZedhJfkLE8qFMnS1+LwJ5PM42B//6ugSL1 u9kbjPvHkZsgoPFSID0VF4cMr9pjkvh24fa2HJb83AK/pWyX6ogL5tEFRd7fXxLzAPjC 5Z3S8fKaTzatWhkZ0iTCc3YL3f//J1/oy8gQ5uJr5UgIYvx5bwh0LDN/cyRs0UZPKMyd 90XNLlAo1yyjLkee6quBY0jbqCxKRoywGHdgPICEYsud3sM9+6D8r2Vl/5FKj/1EmCti kHR4gDf1MSY17hhYLWMkeKnEBupq2TDQ9azCqYLU3PnPpflt9nv2GNOsc7mzBWTB7S8Z MuzQ== i5mr23554951vdk.52.1436712217688; Sun, 12 Jul 2015 07:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.200.1 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Jul 2015 07:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 10:43:37 -0400 From: Scott Hall To: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: [Shop-talk] Air compressor--really worth the extra money? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Setting up the new garage, was planning to buy a Quincy compressor (want to buy it once and be done). They're expensive, but if I only have to buy it once... But I was in Harbor Freight yesterday--they've got what I'm sure is their usual two-stage Chinese whatever for $599. I'm sure it won't keep up with a blaster, but for that price I could dang near buy two of them and still be less than half of a Quincy unit. Anyone have a Harbor Freight compressor and can talk about the quality? If it's just a name thing, and I'll get ten years out of a H-F unit, I might just consider it. If I'm going to have to screw with it more than once a year then I'll spend the extra money on the high-dollar one. I suppose if it lasts ten years, I could buy one each ten years and still be under the cost of a Quincy. Or should I revisit this and consider IR units again, etc.? Thanks guys. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jul 12 09:59:24 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50FC72587D29 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 2015 09:59:24 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtp.centurylink.net (mail.centurylink.net [205.219.233.9]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77DBD258082B for ; Sun, 12 Jul 2015 09:59:10 -0600 (MDT) X_CMAE_Category: , , a=I0wsP0/ub+0M/VQyKFHlEA==:17 a=xwPayol1AAAA:8 a=t3DSDFesAAAA:8 a=AtI6eFG_SXMba9Uqdv0A:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=I0wsP0/ub+0M/VQyKFHlEA==:117 Authentication-Results: smtp01.agate.dfw.synacor.com smtp.user=ejrussell@mebtel.net; auth=pass (LOGIN) Received: from [99.194.29.42] ([99.194.29.42:49321] helo=EricJRussellPC) by smtp.centurylink.net (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.5.1.37854 r(Momo-dev:3.5.1.0)) with ESMTPA id 1F/71-22418-2EE82A55; Sun, 12 Jul 2015 11:59:31 -0400 From: "Eric J Russell" To: "Scott Hall" , References: Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 11:59:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Air compressor--really worth the extra money? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > I was in Harbor Freight yesterday--they've got what I'm sure is their > usual two-stage Chinese whatever for $599. I have no experience with the HF air compressor. You might try browsing the forums at www.garagejournal.com - they often discuss HF items. (don't blame me for all the time you spend there, however...) I bought a 'used' 5 HP IR air compressor via CraigsList. It looked like new for ~ 1/2 the price. I changed the oil and it has needed no further maintenance. Eric Russell Mebane, NC _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Jul 13 09:04:26 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4692587C86 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 09:04:26 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from gateway06.websitewelcome.com (gateway06.websitewelcome.com [64.5.38.4]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 194012584FB6 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 09:04:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: by gateway06.websitewelcome.com (Postfix, from userid 5007) id 8623685900B78; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:04:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gator4190.hostgator.com (gator4190.hostgator.com [108.167.189.15]) by gateway06.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F9C485900B51 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:04:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [128.111.216.187] (port=1885 helo=[192.168.1.101]) by gator4190.hostgator.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZEfHd-0001jm-74 for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:04:41 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 08:04:40 -0700 From: Mike Rambour User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: with any abuse report Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Air compressor--really worth the extra money? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I bought a Champion (Quincy competitor at about same price/quality) about 20 years ago...I open the cabinet its in about once a year and change the oil, I plan on doing that the rest of my life. It does have a auto drain on the tank for moisture/water, so oil change is all it needs. I don't want to EVER have to move that sucker again and I doubt I ever will. But you are right about the price, the Harbor Fright one is cheap and you can buy a few good ones for that price, how noisy is the Harbor Fright one ? The Champion/Quincy's are quiet due to their low RPM. mike On 7/12/2015 7:43 AM, Scott Hall wrote: > Setting up the new garage, was planning to buy a Quincy compressor (want to > buy it once and be done). > > They're expensive, but if I only have to buy it once... > > But I was in Harbor Freight yesterday--they've got what I'm sure is their > usual two-stage Chinese whatever for $599. I'm sure it won't keep up with a > blaster, but for that price I could dang near buy two of them and still be > less than half of a Quincy unit. > > Anyone have a Harbor Freight compressor and can talk about the quality? If > it's just a name thing, and I'll get ten years out of a H-F unit, I might > just consider it. If I'm going to have to screw with it more than once a > year then I'll spend the extra money on the high-dollar one. > > I suppose if it lasts ten years, I could buy one each ten years and still > be under the cost of a Quincy. > > Or should I revisit this and consider IR units again, etc.? > > Thanks guys. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lists@dinospider.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 16 12:20:25 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0CF25844CA for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:20:25 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vn0-f43.google.com (mail-vn0-f43.google.com [209.85.216.43]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E5F42580041 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:14:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: by vnav203 with SMTP id v203so8926048vna.4 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 11:14:55 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=BqoeC5czSK5NNhmy7ryqGeiUxIRt3hKFzX3xqOEyxn8=; b=wHKtaDgOGyGKg5KF77c0kkgTul+jYNTND63iioFs8osOguCdvDyrP75EUsWgN+EFuJ kKKbUAlVvttxsSN4NOGQK5b12quOFeuFoHplNwl/uufaxNJednxZYW1WR4BaKZDUcjuP EYR5Zw/nXTzBv/iqkkOVtKKERG2ewHpSh3oIuAG09HOW90unRrJxKrBLsKums8giMnDe qZ0GfKK7V07xUwWtgn1mQGb6KvJ8+ruSCGUKJUq9zHYdWQXaDy8xqBihtcx7gEZnijFF KjYZkPW0VRKn64nhMGn4m2cSEXW3bnX7dR/iq2yFUFEDtyMgwHigJmTDJnguU/lpApNq J2GA== i5mr11546322vdk.52.1437070495466; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 11:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.200.1 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 11:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 13:14:55 -0500 From: Scott Hall To: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: [Shop-talk] Air conditioner Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Guys, New house has an air conditioned (!) garage. Yes, that was a reason I liked that house. Air conditioner seems dead. Digital thermostat not functional (as in not getting power). Near the air handler (all these terms may or may not be accurate) in the attic, there's a junction box/fuse box/single-purpose breaker box. The function of this box, as near as I can tell, is to be a cutout for the a/c system. So you pull the power to the box if you want to service the system. That way you don't have to get at the breaker box in the basement of the house. Anyway, in this box, there's a...contraption. The contraption consists of a male/female setup. It looks like it's there to stop the power to the system, you pull the male "plug" out of the female sockets in which it fits. Like an old-timey lever-and-contact electric thing you see in cartoons when they're electrocuting Bugs Bunny or something, but it's not attached. You just pull it out. The male part is sitting next to the box. Probably why there's no power to the system. Flipping over the male part, I see two fairly-large cylindrical fuses (I'm pretty sure they're fuses). They seem to be okay. There are various copper blades sticking out of the male part that fit into ports on the female part. So...I'm going to just stick the male part into the female part and see what happens, but the "voice" kicks in. The Voice is a recent addition in life and it seems to be interested in me not killing myself or screwing up too much. It says, "You might want to think about this first." This is the same voice telling me not to install my own torque spring on the garage door, or to grab another jack stand when working under the F250. It seems less-stupid than I am. I decide to listen to it. There's another little electrical-looking jobby sitting next to the male part on the air handler, I can't tell what it does. I thought it might fit into the male part then the whole thing goes into the female part, but I can't tell how that'd happen. It's an irregularly-shaped plastic part a few inches big. You guys are far smarter than I am about Not Killing Myself With Electricity. Should I go throw the whole-house breaker (to off) and plug the male part into the female part for the garage a/c, flip the whole house back to on and see what happens, or should I investigate what that other part does first? Or are there procedures of which I know nothing and I'm asking to set the whole house on fire and destroy the air conditioner and I ought to be on the phone with the HVAC people? Useful to note the system is disabled (male part is out of box) because the house was a foreclosure, I'm sure, not because something's broken. And I can take pictures of everything if it's useful. Normally I'm less of a sissy about this stuff, but I know zip about HVAC systems, and electricity'll kill you real good. But I am looking forward to an AIR CONDITIONED GARAGE. WHOOP. Thanks fellas. Scott _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 16 17:06:27 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21541258508A for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 17:06:27 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ig0-f195.google.com (mail-ig0-f195.google.com [209.85.213.195]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC9A2584D54 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 17:03:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: by igcqs7 with SMTP id qs7so2053069igc.2 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 16:03:47 -0700 (PDT) h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=zjBTl9OJwGJZHLY+aCi4iMX0F3HgYWkNJ3CH75zCkio=; b=f3Z4ruzO9Wrjc+3VK1oKCv8sY7RBGZkhUs68d9ks0Lz/zSvifPQrKJ+DHTOJ9OtYE8 nsn+Alz7pNX+Mobf1bZi9liklFGBp5Dooh9yBruHKZzVPgfHhTQO4QRwb04jto8EaP7M hSvy/kISQXEeImqhuR4QUtyu3/N9gvOYOg1fwnnFleCuCDA4OR6BwSJ7n5lhPGKJo+gZ 13DLi1ettRaub4BL9MbnMIqmvqrYbPleYEUUo5gl+a1RKFkft+lk4np5oHqalxHSadPG Y2NK2SOAoA1qu5UyFRfTs3PyI5Oap3Bu0OqqJHPkIl4pHxgLGzoEWZ9N2Rr+H6Shet5i xIAQ== b63mr14833176ioe.101.1437087811526; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 16:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.104] (205-178-103-199.c3-0.stk-ubr1.chi-stk.il.cable.rcn.com. [205.178.103.199]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ji7sm2507112igb.2.2015.07.16.16.03.30 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Jul 2015 16:03:30 -0700 (PDT) From: David Scheidt Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 18:03:29 -0500 References: To: Scott Hall Cc: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Air conditioner Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > On Jul 16, 2015, at 13:14, Scott Hall wrote: > > Guys, > > New house has an air conditioned (!) garage. Yes, that was a reason I liked > that house. > > Air conditioner seems dead. Digital thermostat not functional (as in not > getting power). > > Near the air handler (all these terms may or may not be accurate) in the > attic, there's a junction box/fuse box/single-purpose breaker box. The > function of this box, as near as I can tell, is to be a cutout for the a/c > system. So you pull the power to the box if you want to service the system. > That way you don't have to get at the breaker box in the basement of the > house. > > Anyway, in this box, there's a...contraption. The contraption consists of a > male/female setup. It looks like it's there to stop the power to the > system, you pull the male "plug" out of the female sockets in which it > fits. Like an old-timey lever-and-contact electric thing you see in > cartoons when they're electrocuting Bugs Bunny or something, but it's not > attached. You just pull it out. That sounds like a typical av disconnect. > > The male part is sitting next to the box. Probably why there's no power to > the system. Flipping over the male part, I see two fairly-large cylindrical > fuses (I'm pretty sure they're fuses). They seem to be okay. There are > various copper blades sticking out of the male part that fit into ports on > the female part. > But the fuses are usually (always, in my experience) fixed on female side of the disconnect. They're time delay fuses, sized based on the ac. A picture would be nice. I can't tell if you have an unusual disconnect or a broken one. One thing to remember is that the supply side terminals in the box are always hot when the breaker is on. You can check there is 240 between them. > So...I'm going to just stick the male part _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jul 16 17:56:28 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C78258769F for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 17:56:28 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.avvanta.com (smtp61.avvanta.com [206.124.128.61]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BC91258021B for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 17:56:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.avvanta.com (localhost.drteeth.p.blarg.net [127.0.0.1]) by mail.avvanta.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69DDCF3940 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 16:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BigBlackIvy.racertodd.com (50-46-114-197.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.46.114.197]) by mail.avvanta.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D300F393E for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 16:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 16:56:30 -0700 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net From: Todd Walke mail.com> localhost.drteeth.p.blarg.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Air conditioner Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Is this roughly what you're seeing? http://www.diversitech.com/Product-Line?id=a0jC0000005QcxgIAC In doing some searches, it appears that on many of these "electrical disconnect" or "ac disconnect" boxes, just opening the door cuts power, then you can pull out the fuse pack. Some have a pull out "handle" that cuts power when the handle is pulled out. Like this: http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/127/ac3w.jpg or this: http://i.stack.imgur.com/8aMRPm.jpg Does the disconnect box have the manufacturers name and model number on it? If so, Google that to see if you can find any instructions online that details how the box works. Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 276,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 523,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jul 26 11:47:01 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF1125853DE for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 11:47:01 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ob0-f180.google.com (mail-ob0-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13DC5258492D for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 11:46:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: by obdeg2 with SMTP id eg2so45315469obd.0 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 10:46:52 -0700 (PDT) d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=2wnAWWsjiJ4aGRN+uYfDVcoOJMgMqtiCKTju5wrPyus=; b=R9RzcdzHJhGwe0Xc+hDzVaE2mwn4e+NTZP2ZcA6VhbinSnhY7J+WjWiW6Wor+rTzqk jTxYGouUSIxojp00y31u6WI/R7xNIhD1fwIf3FKnhm+j3GdK8sdPpS597qN9myXuNAyl YeUcQOQi4xexhQq2cWSPPzuT+a0HmNUqodlHSZbtS4zBaHUAdIXUtijYSW1EaWlnxD3q mdK8UF1M2foiIpN+vAhP3V/s9+ie5cA/pZ6UZeAe62dGKOWIaP/d5IPy1wEQdOV4IbqS z8hXzj1hxG5UhDNVu3zDqYdboxZj/ia5qZVR4YLtLyOstRREBcYHvc91WEI7fn6PPIsc sdqA== nq8mr23479189oeb.54.1437932812224; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 10:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.175.151 with HTTP; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 10:46:52 -0700 (PDT) References: <55A3D388.1090409@dinospider.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 13:46:52 -0400 From: Mark Andy To: Mike Rambour Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Air compressor--really worth the extra money? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Howdy, I've back to backed the 5hp HF against my Champion 5hp unit. The champion is better in every way. Quieter & more air. But... its about double the cost so it damn well better be! I got the HF first and had a failure with the pressure switch during the break in process. I got freaked by that a bit and took it back, then got the Champion (I'm local to TP Tools, so this was pretty easy). You guessed it, the Champion had the same pressure switch, near as I could tell. :-) Last I knew, the HF unit actually was the only product with USA-made components at HF. Anyway, hindsight and all... I have a little more peace of mind with the Champion (and yes, I bought it with the intention of willing it to my son), but I continue to recommend the HF to folks shopping on a budget. I think its a good compressor and the extra $600 or whatever in your pocket can buy you a lot of cool tools. Mark On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Mike Rambour wrote: > I bought a Champion (Quincy competitor at about same price/quality) > about 20 years ago...I open the cabinet its in about once a year and change > the oil, I plan on doing that the rest of my life. > > It does have a auto drain on the tank for moisture/water, so oil change > is all it needs. > > I don't want to EVER have to move that sucker again and I doubt I ever > will. But you are right about the price, the Harbor Fright one is cheap > and you can buy a few good ones for that price, how noisy is the Harbor > Fright one ? The Champion/Quincy's are quiet due to their low RPM. > > mike > > On 7/12/2015 7:43 AM, Scott Hall wrote: > >> Setting up the new garage, was planning to buy a Quincy compressor (want >> to >> buy it once and be done). >> >> They're expensive, but if I only have to buy it once... >> >> But I was in Harbor Freight yesterday--they've got what I'm sure is their >> usual two-stage Chinese whatever for $599. I'm sure it won't keep up with >> a >> blaster, but for that price I could dang near buy two of them and still be >> less than half of a Quincy unit. >> >> Anyone have a Harbor Freight compressor and can talk about the quality? If >> it's just a name thing, and I'll get ten years out of a H-F unit, I might >> just consider it. If I'm going to have to screw with it more than once a >> year then I'll spend the extra money on the high-dollar one. >> >> I suppose if it lasts ten years, I could buy one each ten years and still >> be under the cost of a Quincy. >> >> Or should I revisit this and consider IR units again, etc.? >> >> Thanks guys. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk@autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lists@dinospider.com >> > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka@maracing.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jul 26 12:03:53 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0973B25886F8 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 12:03:53 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 799C125885B1 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 12:02:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.1.2.100] ([::ffff:10.1.2.100]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,AES128-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 11:02:13 -0700 id 00000000002800AF.0000000055B520A5.00006D6F To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <55A3D388.1090409@dinospider.com> From: John Miller Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 11:01:50 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Air compressor--really worth the extra money? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 7/26/2015 10:46 AM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > I've back to backed the 5hp HF against my Champion 5hp unit. I've got a 20gal DeVilbiss, bought it 15+ years ago, hung it 8ft up on the wall a decade ago after we remodeled, it built the house and has done a lot of car work and been worth every friggin' penny I spent on it and then some, but I think it's wearing out and I'd like something bigger and it's pretty loud up on the wall of the garage for everyday use. That Champion looks acceptable, cost-wise, the HF unit perhaps even more so, the plan at this point is to noise-insulate a chunk of a cabinet out in the side yard adjacent to the fence and run conduit and air line out there for it. The TP Tools website doesn't show me a height, and that's a potential constraint. Can I get you to grab a measuring tape and tell me how tall it is? Thanks. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jul 26 12:04:56 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9C5A2588728 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 12:04:56 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24C102588683 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 12:04:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.1.2.100] ([::ffff:10.1.2.100]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,AES128-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 11:04:54 -0700 id 00000000002800AF.0000000055B52146.00006DA6 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <55A3D388.1090409@dinospider.com> <55B5208E.6070808@milleredp.com> From: John Miller Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 11:04:32 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Air compressor--really worth the extra money? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > The TP Tools website doesn't show me a height, and that's a potential > constraint. Can I get you to grab a measuring tape and tell me how tall > it is? Oh, wait. 76in H. Never mind. Off to the yard with the measuring tape. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jul 26 12:09:55 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 781762584B4A for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 12:09:55 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938AD258492D for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 12:09:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.1.2.100] ([::ffff:10.1.2.100]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,AES128-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 11:09:53 -0700 id 00000000002800AF.0000000055B52271.00006DFD To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <55A3D388.1090409@dinospider.com> <55B5208E.6070808@milleredp.com> <55B52130.1080609@milleredp.com> From: John Miller Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 11:09:30 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Air compressor--really worth the extra money? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 7/26/2015 11:04 AM, John Miller wrote: >> The TP Tools website doesn't show me a height, and that's a potential >> constraint. Can I get you to grab a measuring tape and tell me how tall >> it is? > > Oh, wait. > > 76in H. > > Never mind. Fascinating that the shipping weight on the Champion is almost twice that of the HF unit. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jul 26 19:03:32 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D53602584EEB for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 19:03:32 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bradakis.com (50-198-190-18-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.198.190.18]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B9F25805B4 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 19:03:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bradakis.com (50-198-190-18-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.198.190.18]) by bradakis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13E32C00F2 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 19:03:27 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 19:03:27 -0600 From: Mark J Bradakis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:36.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/36.0 SeaMonkey/2.33.1 To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] Team.Net archives Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net The archives were unavailable for a bit, minor server issues. Should be working now, link below for those on the real time list. mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Jul 27 15:03:32 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D382584F65 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 15:03:32 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vn0-f53.google.com (mail-vn0-f53.google.com [209.85.216.53]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F395425804AB for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 15:03:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: by vnk197 with SMTP id 197so35701397vnk.3 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 14:03:28 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=+zO5fHbDyOCqpySnNLF/wv6x9awAFLt2yXuXi7sTvg4=; b=Wy1PlbhxKtQImEYZkYXBnhybm9f1ntEoD98Vqo3UZWss1K3VmIuVJzeTfwLgrg98sy LbNHgcut181mWZlzWilXnohnSS6NYJlKT2u4+Q+FinXzAPYQOxUrIJVf339ujKqarmqI QHHrzyVflvn+MR0SunO1gLUJEvVfpCl8Mp9ya8ik5tS4M7lS7OD+B+5FYzq1P6B8uzFT iV8UgM6KQ9D18kH3fPtVwNyFOfIGnC5wHws7bCtHEcjkq/75RnsisRFiwceYkGuaIulM 9INM5jiO5zp6BM8dqlkW388+hmUMJNxdv4TyUHQ3NZz3jdAPkVUxTM+2ymHaz23KkzL6 f88w== dd8mr11559250vdc.60.1438031008201; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 14:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.200.1 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 14:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 16:03:28 -0500 From: Scott Hall To: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this a shutoff? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Guys, My gas line seems to be devoid of shutoffs. There's a few of these things: http://imgur.com/StikUPR Which I hope are shutoffs, and one obvious shutoff...on a pipe with an open end. Opening that shutoff value produces a sound like gas moving. I can't find a whole-house shutoff (or a meter). I'm assuming it's underground. The utility says I have gas service. The thing in the picture is just upstream of the water heater. I'm hoping that's a shutoff because if it's not I don't know how to R&R the heater, and the heater is on its way out. Also, there MUST be a whole-house shutoff, yes? I'd like to re-do a lot of the piping under there, but you'd better bet I'm not touching it until I know it's off to the whole house...or at least shut off upstream of where I'm working. If that thing IS a shutoff...how do it work? Or rather, how to I know when it's open and when it's shut? Clockwise is off, counterclockwise is on? Thanks. Scott, hoping not to blow hisself up _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Jul 27 16:22:59 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB222587B89 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 16:22:59 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCBB2587AF5 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 16:22:09 -0600 (MDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=tyHO0X2WQr2koseTaOD+Og6GSDt4HwSu1EBx7H4gh8jNpB+EPND5RunRPViV0SAP; h=Received:Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date:User-Agent:MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [172.6.12.192] (helo=[192.168.1.3]) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1ZJqmi-0005tN-QB; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 18:22:12 -0400 To: Scott Hall , "Shop-talk@autox.team.net" References: From: Brian Kemp Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 15:21:54 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Is this a shutoff? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Scott - It looks like a shutoff. Turn the part of the left side of the picture perpendicular to the pipe and it should be off. Parallel to the pipe like in the picture is on. The shutoff will be similar to the one in the picture, such that you need a wrench to turn it on or off. You don't want someone turning it on and off by accident. In every house I've had, the main shutoff is right before the meter. Most meters are on one side of the house. One was in an underground box at the property line. I'd ask a neighbor to see what they do in your area. Brian On 7/27/2015 2:03 PM, Scott Hall wrote: > Guys, > > My gas line seems to be devoid of shutoffs. There's a few of these things: > > http://imgur.com/StikUPR > > Which I hope are shutoffs, and one obvious shutoff...on a pipe with an open > end. Opening that shutoff value produces a sound like gas moving. > > I can't find a whole-house shutoff (or a meter). I'm assuming it's > underground. The utility says I have gas service. > > The thing in the picture is just upstream of the water heater. I'm hoping > that's a shutoff because if it's not I don't know how to R&R the heater, > and the heater is on its way out. > > Also, there MUST be a whole-house shutoff, yes? I'd like to re-do a lot of > the piping under there, but you'd better bet I'm not touching it until I > know it's off to the whole house...or at least shut off upstream of where > I'm working. > > If that thing IS a shutoff...how do it work? Or rather, how to I know when > it's open and when it's shut? Clockwise is off, counterclockwise is on? > > Thanks. > > Scott, hoping not to blow hisself up > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Jul 27 17:18:47 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5138F25851BB for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 17:18:47 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plsmtpa08-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa08-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.106]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DFD6258020D for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 17:18:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from StevePC ([67.160.74.98]) by p3plsmtpa08-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with id xbJi1q00427EXdf01bJi9m; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 16:18:43 -0700 From: "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA" To: "Scott Hall" , References: Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 16:18:44 -0700 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Is this a shutoff? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thatbs a shut off. Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA From: Scott Hall Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 2:03 PM To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this a shutoff? Guys, My gas line seems to be devoid of shutoffs. There's a few of these things: http://imgur.com/StikUPR Which I hope are shutoffs, and one obvious shutoff...on a pipe with an open end. Opening that shutoff value produces a sound like gas moving. I can't find a whole-house shutoff (or a meter). I'm assuming it's underground. The utility says I have gas service. The thing in the picture is just upstream of the water heater. I'm hoping that's a shutoff because if it's not I don't know how to R&R the heater, and the heater is on its way out. Also, there MUST be a whole-house shutoff, yes? I'd like to re-do a lot of the piping under there, but you'd better bet I'm not touching it until I know it's off to the whole house...or at least shut off upstream of where I'm working. If that thing IS a shutoff...how do it work? Or rather, how to I know when it's open and when it's shut? Clockwise is off, counterclockwise is on? Thanks. Scott, hoping not to blow hisself up _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gsteve@hammatt.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6030 / Virus Database: 4392/10318 - Release Date: 07/27/15 _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Jul 27 17:29:12 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF89B2585AAA for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 17:29:11 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm26-vm7.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm26-vm7.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [216.109.115.214]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE112580B7A for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 17:29:02 -0600 (MDT) s=s1024; t=1438039745; bh=nW+nN80/lZ9CBr3rz4uxEvDDav5T5B69sCkiQ0mY17Y=; h=Reply-To:To:From:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=g3SQ2uUg1beAI6UaHZIh5kUp2cJhwzRSWagCTlOVG3K4a7TqOwArAsjLCCBG4V6np6X39U15cNetXKeEHeLwd9TBzFaHVS+57YWFoQWu9N9OFHJN1TYz4/fuN1FavU+/svXT3BEI2GtInjqF8GZsxXS/xPIMp3tivEnVd9YEP8I= Received: from [66.196.81.155] by nm26.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2015 23:29:05 -0000 Received: from [98.138.104.97] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2015 23:29:05 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp117.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2015 23:29:04 -0000 Co0RzYsjM62G5JeXLIjTgG6Qs7uWyXsXoOHpW7PoAu30xVWN0vwoJO.Lt1TS YE8sxkLBbgcZ7MFaeskv.IVxPS3VzWvUEVYXm_QZappbYA2eCKW2Gd5xiAcf RXEO2aeNrXWXZLHow3aIOow96lu.LS80ZvvHpHAnsakefM70G2w4cZ_76g4z .t9U1Xw88ni7ytAc3KE_I1rhUfBloHhl9dLNGItqoTt3WJ6wAZHhMgAwonOJ 3J46w0VoHaMx8M_mmRSk7lZOhiiS8Bx7jOgDgyggqtL2.jGo4oLfmSq9_g2N LdhKq4Crpgrowkf6gs6ZydyT6Wj3O4Iv.2Z_.vvo.4jhqX1NutBKL3sl5BWf u_pFDsmQszr0uih9ZRk9YzOGN9mzPBlyqNiHQzm5R4hcIiBSpvgbZMNN.sfJ ERmGEqHJ0PW84kBveCoJd4UF2IqAIIj7lGFRrT11U.7BJGfzWQ_XWbvUevT5 FvkzFSoGilCFa3g-- To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net From: steve hochschild Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 18:29:06 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 Subject: [Shop-talk] barn door questions Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Look, a real shop being built and discussed on shoptalk! I am about to begin building my dream shop: 1024 sq ft on two floors, metal shed roof, exterior stairway, and lots of other fabulous features that I will talk about later. The 1st floor has a ceiling height of 12', so I can roll my travel trailer in and work on it out of the hot Texas sun, and I need the full height. I propose to fabricate a pair of 4' wide by 12' high barn doors, to cover an 8'wide x 12' high opening. I'm thinking of making each as metal channel frame, with six ~2' by 4' frosted acrylic/plex panels supported by metal channel cross pieces welded to the uprights. Is there a best choice for the frosted plastic panels/windows? Is there a standard way to clip the panels into the frames? Is there a standard way to make the frames, for example an extruded aluminum frame stock that is made to build up just this kind of thing? I got the idea for this while looking at picture frame components, but of course, I need something far bigger and industrial strength. The 8' opening is centered on a 16' wall, and I plan to hang a track system all the way across, so I can open each door to its side with no overhang. I have briefly looked at Tractor Supply's site, where they offer couple of different formats: square tubing or round, flexible hangers or non, and different roller configs. Is there other hardware that I should look at? More later, but this is the issue we are looking at now... Thanks! _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Jul 27 18:25:55 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853052585DC3 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 18:25:55 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtp.centurylink.net (mail.centurylink.net [205.219.233.9]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8E9625847AF for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 18:25:48 -0600 (MDT) X_CMAE_Category: , , a=I0wsP0/ub+0M/VQyKFHlEA==:17 a=xwPayol1AAAA:8 a=ZtizuxzYcy5uissk6b4A:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=dIZBZfRiF0UA:10 a=I0wsP0/ub+0M/VQyKFHlEA==:117 Authentication-Results: smtp01.agate.dfw.synacor.com smtp.user=ejrussell@mebtel.net; auth=pass (LOGIN) Received: from [99.194.29.42] ([99.194.29.42:61396] helo=EricJRussellPC) by smtp.centurylink.net (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.5.1.37854 r(Momo-dev:3.5.1.0)) with ESMTPA id 1A/1F-09803-F0CC6B55; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 20:25:51 -0400 From: "Eric J Russell" To: , "shop-talk" References: <55B6BEC2.1080800@att.net> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 20:25:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] barn door questions Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Not sure about how to make & hang the doors but I think an 8' wide opening is going to a tight fit. A 'standard' garage door is ~ 9' wide. If possible, I suggest 10' wide. Eric Russell Mebane, NC ----- Original Message ----- > I propose to fabricate a pair of 4' wide by 12' high barn doors, to cover > an 8'wide x 12' high opening. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Jul 27 19:33:10 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A429F2588495 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 19:33:10 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from itonami.pair.com (itonami.pair.com [209.68.2.178]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDFCC25882C3 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 19:33:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: by itonami.pair.com (Postfix, from userid 3198) id 1F9798FF2C; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 21:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by itonami.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB868FF18; Mon, 27 Jul 2015 21:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 21:33:03 -0400 (EDT) From: David Hillman To: steve@hochschild.org References: <55B6BEC2.1080800@att.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (BSF 1266 2009-07-14) Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] barn door questions Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Mon, 27 Jul 2015, steve hochschild wrote: > Is there a best choice for the frosted plastic panels/windows? Is there a > standard way to clip the panels into the frames? > > Is there a standard way to make the frames, for example an extruded > aluminum frame stock that is made to build up just this kind of thing? I > got the idea for this while looking at picture frame components, but of > course, I need something far bigger and industrial strength. Yes, 8020.net. -- David Hillman _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jul 28 07:14:28 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 905632587E0E for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2015 07:14:28 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mailback2.g2host.com (mailback2.g2host.com [209.98.94.167]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A532587C12 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2015 07:12:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [198.203.177.177] (account arvidj@visi.com) by visi.com (CommuniGate Pro WEBUSER 6.0.11) with HTTP id 2673812 for Shop-talk@autox.team.net; Tue, 28 Jul 2015 08:12:37 -0500 From: "Arvid Jedlicka" To: Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 08:12:37 -0500 References: <55B6BEC2.1080800@att.net> Subject: [Shop-talk] Wire splices ... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jul 28 18:09:49 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118292584D0B for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2015 18:09:49 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-pd0-f194.google.com (mail-pd0-f194.google.com [209.85.192.194]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE0C32580747 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2015 18:09:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: by pdbfq13 with SMTP id fq13so7985284pdb.3 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:09:42 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=qYkbhcre58wiaHAXfVWe9k/PvL8UOlJLCZnixR159Jk=; b=d4c6I9KTDYfywYxepozYctM1kNiW4rlw0pqiMBugGx/2CPmGQyuZeX0FYiUUYYSHi2 ifNtDVnCYBYAa0rxu/y8i6+WqBeqWemLkV24tyg0eedhdn5CCpoHuJjnQYXmD440iMLf 0V189uGXdmxbsOAS/QJaYbxyJxMzemj7H/1EjETFlUTNzYiijTlbxAqJSXWoAa2UzuoR +YJHUeqatrCF1XGtfytvymEn8O3ML6AzjNfwnTUMENQcwWpYnlCsJXfnM1m6rddHLRp5 ZbWfA/xOvtEHrMWlpwf7/PoD4VCPOZ1R96F0xp7SsQ9FbIbV0mWlFe1/2uNhL0b+gU6y As3g== k2mr85719834pda.128.1438128582729; Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.75.104 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:09:42 -0700 (PDT) References: <55B6BEC2.1080800@att.net> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 19:09:42 -0500 From: David Scheidt To: Arvid Jedlicka Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wire splices ... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 8:12 AM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > Arvid: nothing reached the list. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jul 29 06:41:37 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EA38258885C for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 06:41:37 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mailback2.g2host.com (mailback2.g2host.com [209.98.94.167]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A64A258863D for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 06:41:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [198.203.177.177] (account arvidj@visi.com) by visi.com (CommuniGate Pro WEBUSER 6.0.11) with HTTP id 2682075; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 07:41:27 -0500 From: "Arvid Jedlicka" To: shop-talk Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 07:41:27 -0500 References: <55B6BEC2.1080800@att.net> Cc: David Scheidt Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wire splices ... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jul 31 17:15:25 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F242584758 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 17:15:25 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plsmtpa09-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa09-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.236]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3349E2584450 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 17:15:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from StevePC ([67.160.74.98]) by p3plsmtpa09-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with id zBFL1q00B27EXdf01BFLm8; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 16:15:21 -0700 From: "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA" To: Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 16:15:22 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical install questions Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Need to hook up home central a/c located in my (temporary) shop/garage. New shop and extra garage space is to be soon added to our property. The installation will be handled by a local HVAC contractor (using an outside electrical contractor) or option is to allow the homeowner (me) to supply the power from the panel to the electrical shutoff mounted on the outside wall of the garage, next to the condenser. We have a dedicated 30A 240V circuit, previously used for an electric clothes dryer (now switched to gas) that goes up and through the garage attic trusses (above the garagebs drywall ceiling) toward the housebs laundry room. My thought is to interrupt the run to the dryer, terminating the run toward the no longer being used dryer, and install a J-box to make a new run to the adjacent garage wall for the a/c unit. I plan to bore through the double top plate and run the Romex down through the wall and through to the outside where it would be connected to the switch box. Here are my questions: 1. Planning 2.5 ton 13SEER unit. What Romex wiring size can I run? Itbs about a total of 50b. 2. I understand that the J-box in the attic storage space must be easily accessible. Any other placement requirements? 3. Any recommendations for the outside switch box? Is there a design for going through a siding/OSB exterior wall? 4. Any nailing recommendations? Ibm familiar with not nailing (staples) too tight on the Romex. Spacing suggestions? 5. Any other suggestions before we get started? Home owner electrical is OK here, but I certainly do not want to be anything less than safe. The quoted electrical cost for this job (through one of the a/c contractors) was over $800 which I hope to lessen drastically. Thanks for your assistance. Steve Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jul 31 17:27:36 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5B232588518 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 17:27:36 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plsmtpa08-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa08-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.108]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231502584450 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 17:26:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from PatsOffice ([184.105.18.14]) by p3plsmtpa08-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with id zBSQ1q00F0JCzvc01BSQbs; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 16:26:25 -0700 From: "Pat Horne" To: , References: <55B6BEC2.1080800@att.net> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:26:07 -0500 Thread-Index: AdDIxBoNS7J7e8BRTVmq6ItYQBnA/wDItDFw Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] barn door questions Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Steve, Take a look at Lexan for the windows. I don't know how large a panel you can get, but it is very tough. I also live in Texas (South of Austin) and I used Lexan roofing panels over a porch about 20 years ago and it hasn't weathered at all. About 15 years ago I built my 30'x40' shop and also planned on working on my travel trailer in it, which I never did. My trailer is an old Avion, which is less than 10' tall, so I built my bottom floor a bit over 10' high. I put in an segmented overhead door 12' wide by 10' high. I also built exterior stairs to get to the second floor which is a 900 sq. ft. apartment. My shop area is split between mechanic/steel work and woodworking, with the center part in line with the overhead door open so that there is overflow room from either half. Don't forget to allow for an office and a bathroom, including a shower. One thing I did which helps is to cover the ceiling with cheap corrugated roofing metal to reflect light around inside. Really helps. Also I ran air all around the shop with a closet outside under the stairs for the compressor. Where are you located? Peace, Pat -----Original Message----- From: Shop-talk [mailto:shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of steve hochschild Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 6:29 PM To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] barn door questions The 1st floor has a ceiling height of 12', so I can roll my travel trailer in and work on it out of the hot Texas sun, and I need the full height. I propose to fabricate a pair of 4' wide by 12' high barn doors, to cover an 8'wide x 12' high opening. I'm thinking of making each as metal channel frame, with six ~2' by 4' frosted acrylic/plex panels supported by metal channel cross pieces welded to the uprights. Thanks! _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat@hornesystemstx.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jul 31 21:18:45 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF8B25848C3 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 21:18:45 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wi0-f181.google.com (mail-wi0-f181.google.com [209.85.212.181]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83725258059D for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 21:18:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: by wibud3 with SMTP id ud3so52481938wib.0 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 20:18:41 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Rk0CdfauKs5ZeSRQdXwIkFREn2/cfmrg+AL27JILpWI=; b=TOE2JgjlaumDXi1k35Ah1SaB2m77lodhGbuRQoYLHMmjQQiAGOW62L+n0uDn0jnf8k VC0TdDHWx7WyzHCw2lP9M8cRxY+NhYBHNPGC0/gWMyb75zCi/Xeajpt+TC3Vc3bqwpa8 LcnQbdM532eBJd50VZCVwxp29bsa7NgmiCv9Ilbop4xUy6PyKQSt2JuGE94bwll+O8tM PzTs0G2euio7Xstu9PSH6LJhTWL5nQlKz8KOPj4h2vWKzrSu+NjbpSVq00gCy9K9l8VB SLlCyIK143wCIJ5qLTGG/Sc/ip7YY9aKHN73/mF+hDxWKmkv6Q/x/6TMNr6MdQ12OBII 6qmQ== l7mr13606235wie.32.1438399120980; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 20:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.27.7.208 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 20:18:40 -0700 (PDT) References: <55B6BEC2.1080800@att.net> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 22:18:40 -0500 From: David Scheidt To: Arvid Jedlicka , shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wire splices ... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 7:41 AM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 19:09:42 -0500 > David Scheidt wrote: >> On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 8:12 AM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: >>> >> Arvid: nothing reached the list. > > Thanks David. I'll try this again with a different email client and see if > it works ... > > I'll need to tap into some of the small interior wiring on the car. I'd like > to access the collective wisdom of the > group regarding the best way to do it. > > We're all familiar with the guillotine style ... > > http://www.amazon.com/Morris-Products-10774-Splice-Connector/dp/B0106BJ8CI/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1438088400&sr=8-8&keywords=splice&pebp=1438088429119&perid=0HVMJGHE6P8SY9HN2QM6 > > ... but I'm not that fond of them. My limited experience with them usually > results in the original wire being cut or > the added wire not remaining attached. I am assuming it is operator error > but it could be I'm just buying the wrong > brand or size of connector. Suggestions welcome. > > I've also seen, but never used, the posi-tap type of connectors ... > > http://www.posi-products.com/posiplug.html ... > > Any real world experience would be appreciated. > > That's all I can think of and very likely have missed "the perfect > solution". > > Suggestions and recommendations?? My very strong preference is to tap at the terminal block or fuse or relay. Second choice is at the termination for a load. Various options depending on what kind of terminals are involved. Third choice is at an existing splice. Mid span splices are evil, and all of them will eventually fail, one way or another. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jul 31 21:36:04 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 585C82584CFD for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 21:36:04 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com (mail-wi0-f169.google.com [209.85.212.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 325D525803E9 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 21:35:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: by wibxm9 with SMTP id xm9so55965089wib.0 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 20:36:05 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=4lBbPg961+IFT77uRIxEXOC2FS66qKNSSFqYorERGzY=; b=rqGcBUVQN5Te0T/JVNEBmsrgiPhkK6jrp5YIMRMy/MNewVK7aDQTEZOUGmP5a4rQkW OdXYTRWssrxUWEHzMks1DH+q06kAqBcioLA1lD0Q+W/fL2dT3J1jXyryhQ4UMGlvfSJO zWHmP+RwPSsLS5p/pZPznSz6syxBSSwo+Jy9cLR7O0e9v7g9NfDWWHBA9eL0ALPtn96e Sd8jyZL63ly5dlIu/+s6Z01uEjfsqyHWGvaK7iBShLviXP3/UO5Y1zhCYALjXZs7HJRw EwSwRlu/R+TiiEYKP9Ql3QyVl1F7tRhz6/QcJenwabHvAURBrEw9sdoO5GZJoj1ZGR8y Bv/g== c6mr13120204wiz.32.1438400164886; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.27.7.208 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT) References: <1804233A391A40F694D4960525807B75@StevePC> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 22:36:04 -0500 From: David Scheidt To: "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA" Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electrical install questions Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 6:15 PM, Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA wrote: > Need to hook up home central a/c located in my (temporary) shop/garage. > New shop and extra garage space is to be soon added to our property. > The installation will be handled by a local HVAC contractor (using an outside > electrical contractor) or option is to allow the homeowner (me) to supply the > power from the panel to the electrical shutoff mounted on the outside wall > of the garage, next to the condenser. We have a dedicated 30A 240V circuit, > previously used for an electric clothes dryer (now switched to gas) that > goes up and through the garage attic trusses (above the garageb s drywall > ceiling) > toward the houseb s laundry room. My thought is to interrupt the run to the > dryer, terminating the run toward the no longer being used dryer, and install > a J-box to make a new run to the adjacent garage wall for the a/c unit. I > plan > to bore through the double top plate and run the Romex down through the wall > and through to the outside where it would be connected to the switch box. > Here are my questions: > 1. Planning 2.5 ton 13SEER unit. What Romex wiring size can I run? Itb s > about a > total of 50b . 30 amp breaker requires 10gauge wire, which will provide a 3% voltage drop at about 100 feet. > 2. I understand that the J-box in the attic storage space must be easily > accessible. > Any other placement requirements? > 3. Any recommendations for the outside switch box? Is there a design for > going through a siding/OSB exterior wall? I expect they want a standard a/c disconnect, with fuses. There are versions that feed through the back, from through the wall. > 4. Any nailing recommendations? Ib m familiar with not nailing (staples) > too > tight on the Romex. Spacing suggestions? Minimum spacing is specified by the NEC. basic rule is no more than 4.5 feet apart, within one foot of any box or fitting, and within 6 inches of a single gang box without a clamp. Also, wire should be parallel with the studs (where that makes sense, of course), and needs to be 1 1/4 away from the edge. If it can't be, it has to be protected from nails by a plate, sleeve, or in conduit. There are additional complications, but if you follow that, use sense, you'll be fine. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jul 31 21:43:09 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46652584EC9 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 21:43:09 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wi0-f172.google.com (mail-wi0-f172.google.com [209.85.212.172]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 147252584AF0 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 21:41:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: by wibxm9 with SMTP id xm9so52949384wib.1 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 20:41:41 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=ndVSbISGau3Oo4uPsDBD7LHCc9TYvK+kKF6oBomea0Y=; b=fAI3+c5LOKbgHnOeUG+wV0aBzXiW73IH/Zl0sbsWE2XB5iqfYZUumn2lGMQvJkKVP2 7cgCo8v49/rbyyCSJ2MG32ZU5Yl6+BKPz0b9fIwiqah7fiS25nsSJGWiEgFC99uD0eEZ +hyM4ChC9lUFKEwP6zvpHP8+v0sFLpajqzmqa/z2yfKy3M0pniyLsoeNKaF/SGQUng9+ hK5FkN4XzNos/vM0y07neIJf+MjPUF20Ck996GJ3MweNjoS9/BOh85Ssfs2BzOe2VAH0 xdIRBq3kcjSRjV040+venoFNowfg4Kz5CAw5t5NEaqZ0it3EK/IvCZPN4AUSH1aNONL8 zFMg== c6mr13158474wiz.32.1438400501847; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 20:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.27.7.208 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Jul 2015 20:41:41 -0700 (PDT) References: <55B6BEC2.1080800@att.net> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 22:41:41 -0500 From: David Scheidt To: steve@hochschild.org, shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] barn door questions Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 6:29 PM, steve hochschild wrote: > Look, a real shop being built and discussed on shoptalk! > > I am about to begin building my dream shop: 1024 sq ft on two floors, metal > shed roof, exterior stairway, and lots of other fabulous features that I > will talk about later. > > The 1st floor has a ceiling height of 12', so I can roll my travel trailer > in and work on it out of the hot Texas sun, and I need the full height. > > I propose to fabricate a pair of 4' wide by 12' high barn doors, to cover an > 8'wide x 12' high opening. You want an opening larger than 8 feet! 8 feet is a pain to get a car in through (espcially, if you have to push!). Go 10 feet, 12 if you can. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive