Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] o/t Water softener

From: "Pat Horne" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 08:08:24 -0500

Ian,

FWIW, I've heard that the Fleck valve is superior to others, but no
experience. I have one of the 3600gr Morton softeners that works well for
us. It is only a bit over a year old, so no real history yet. If they are
both the same price, I'd go for the Fleck. BTW, you may be able to install
the unit yourself if it has the same manifold at the same height as your old
softener, that is what I did and saved a bunch. The softener was about $500
including shipping (Amazon).

Peace,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Shop-talk [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Ian
McFetridge
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2015 8:14 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] o/t Water softener

Sorry for the off-topic post...the nearest this comes to shop talk is my
desire to one-day add a softened-water bib in my garage for washing cars. :)

I would appreciate any input on brands and on the quotes I've received.

The existing 30,000gr softener is from 1994 and the valve is broken beyond
repair and has to be replaced. (1994 vintage, so not unexpected)  At 20
years old, I'd like to replace the cylinder, valve, and brine tank.  I got
quotes from two local companies, one that installed the system for the
previous owner.

Ecowater ESD2502R30 30,600 gr.  Warranty:  3yr parts/labor

Fleck valve 42,000 gr.  warranty 6yr parts/labor

Both vendors were given the same water test results and household
information (17 gr/gal, family of four, good pH, iron, etc.)...not sure why
the disparity in sizing 30k vs 42k.
I'm leaning towards getting the Fleck.

Both cost the same amount ($1700 installed) and both claim their valves use
electronic metering to be more efficient than other brands (both must use
simple timer valves as comparatives).  Ecowater seems to have an OK
reputation online, but the fact that everything is proprietary bugs me -- at
least that's what I've read, although parts are available (link below) and
the parts vendor notes that this is the same unit resold by other companies.

   1. Sears,NorthStar - Softenerparts.com
 
<https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uac
t=8&ved=0CD8QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.softenerparts.com%2FNorth_Star_Sears_
GE_Smartwater_Whirlpool_s%2F1.htm&ei=SCwGVcCYJuy1sASl2oKAAQ&usg=AFQjCNEDZ__g
-GhNlyVW2utMnQhYx75RFQ>

   www.softenerparts.com/*North_Star*_Sears_GE_Smartwater...s/1.htm

<https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#
   -
 
<http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YW5z5KhmWZIJ:www.softe
nerparts.com/North_Star_Sears_GE_Smartwater_Whirlpool_s/1.htm+&cd=5&hl=en&ct
=clnk&gl=us>
      -
 
<https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&biw=1440&bih=802&q=related:www.softene
rparts.com/North_Star_Sears_GE_Smartwater_Whirlpool_s/1.htm+ecowater+northst
ar&tbo=1&sa=X&ei=SCwGVcCYJuy1sASl2oKAAQ&ved=0CEMQHzAE>
   Sears, G.E., Lindsay, North Star, Morton, Whirlpool, Ecowater Family of
   Valves ...These are all new parts from the original manufacturer
   ( Ecowater ).

Thanks in advance,
Ian
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From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 19:49:09 -0500

> the disparity in sizing 30k vs 42k.

It's always a good idea to ask contractors what drove the sizing of
whatever device they're installing.  If it's "that's what's there",
find someone else.  They're relying on the previous guy to have done a
good job, and not just installed what was fastest, easiest, or most
profitable.  An oversized water softener isn't a horrible thing, but
it's likely to be more expensive than a smaller one.  likewise, an
modestly undersized one isn't a huge deal, it just regenerates more
often.  Both assume reasonable smartish controllers, and not just a
"once a week" timer.  But I'd want to know they did the pretty simple
math involved.

-- 
David Scheidt
[email-masked]

[email-masked]

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From: "Peter J. Thomas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 09:31:45 -0400

> quotes from two local companies, one that installed the system for the
I had one installed in 1994.  I have a lot of iron and manganese. It did 
not last me 20 years. The problem with the major brands is they are 
proprietary and require you to go to the "authorized" dealer for parts 
and service at steep prices.  I opted for a non proprietary system and 
installed it myself for about 1/3 the cost. Works great, zero problems.

I don't remember the company or the brand of the unit but you might 
consider searching the web.

Peter T.

[email-masked]

---

From: Benjamin Zwissler <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:07:29 -0400

I purchased one of these:

Fleck 5600SXT 48,000 grain water softener digitial sxt metered whole
house system

from Abundant Flow Water Systems on Amazon.  I was frustrated with
having to repeatedly repair the "consumer" equipment sold by Sears,
Lowe's, etc., and didn't want to pay "professional" prices.  This has
the Fleck control head (same as used on most professional units,
including Culligan).  The rest of the system is just tanks, plumbing
and resin so there's little risk there.  I sized it for our four
bed/three bath house on reasonably hard Indiana municipal well water,
but with just my wife and I at home most of the time now its way
oversized.  I paid about $6-700 including shipping and I used Amazon
largely because the price was good and I hoped they would help if
things went "bad."

I bought it about 2 1/2 years ago and have had absolutely no problem
so far.  I'd go this way again.  I feel I got a professional unit for
a "big box" price and it took me about an afternoon to install.  Fleck
parts are widely available and if the tank failed before the control
head I'd likely just replace the tank if it was less than 10 yrs old.

Ben....

On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Peter J. Thomas <[email-masked]> wrote:
> I had one installed in 1994.  I have a lot of iron and manganese. It did not
> last me 20 years. The problem with the major brands is they are proprietary
> and require you to go to the "authorized" dealer for parts and service at
> steep prices.  I opted for a non proprietary system and installed it myself
> for about 1/3 the cost. Works great, zero problems.
>
> I don't remember the company or the brand of the unit but you might consider
> searching the web.
>
> Peter T.
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

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---

From: "Tim ." <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:38:51 -0500

Good info. Thanks Peter.

Is this something an amateur could install? Someone with minor knowledge? I
plumbed my garage air using copper with no issues or leaks so am able to seal
up copper pipes. Thanks

> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:07:29 -0400
> From: [email-masked]
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] o/t Water softener
>
not
> > I don't remember the company or the brand of the unit but you might
consider

[email-masked]

---

From: "Peter J. Thomas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 14:26:13 -0400

> plumbed my garage air using copper with no issues or leaks so am able to seal

I did it.  If you can sweat a pipe, which you can, that's it.  Only 
other thing is the back wash drain.  In my case since I already had a 
system it was trivial.  If you're adding one for the first time you need 
a diverter value, which should come with and the system, and to tap into 
the waste lines or run it outside.

> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

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---

From: "Peter J. Thomas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 14:27:21 -0400

> Fleck 5600SXT 48,000 grain water softener digitial sxt metered whole
I think mine also has a Fleck metered digital head.  Again, zero problems.
_______________________________________________

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From: Ian McFetridge <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 21:06:35 -0400

This is really helpful...I really appreciate all of the perspectives.  I've
almost convinced myself that I can simply replace the old unit with a new
Fleck from Amazon.  I've ordered a new water test kit, once that's back
from the lab I'll have the CaCO3, iron and manganese to use in the sizing
calculations.  The difference in sizing from the two vendors was
interesting.  They both asked for the same information and came back with
different sizes.

Awaiting test kit...

Thanks,
Ian

[email-masked]

---

From: "Peter J. Thomas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 23:29:25 -0400

> interesting.  They both asked for the same information and came back with

Sizing really only affects how often you regenerate which might explain 
the differences.  Since the size wasn't a huge difference in price I 
opted for a larger so I regen less often.

BTW, If you have a lot of iron or manganese there is a special resin for 
them.

[email-masked]

---

From: Ian McFetridge <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:16:45 -0400

Thanks.  I need to do some research on the resins and will use the results
of the water test to make sure I get the applicable resin.

On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:29 PM, Peter J. Thomas <[email-masked]>
wrote:
> the differences.  Since the size wasn't a huge difference in price I opted
> for a larger so I regen less often.
>

[email-masked]