Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Standby Generators

From: w <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 00:27:09 -0500

On 12/27/2013 7:04 PM, James Stone wrote:
> I would like to set up a relatively inexpensive standby generator for my
> vacation home.  The house uses propane for heat, hot water and cooking, so the
> logical thing to do would be to get a propane powered generator or convert one

Just had a 20 KW Generac propane installed last month at a relative's 
home, impetus being a terminally ill resident with need of power for 
life support equipment in a long term outage.

Very nice, apparently high quality unit with a 1L V-twin engine and 
fancy electronics. Supposed to be able to hold up a whole 200 amp 
service panel. But it was $8,100 installed. I found the unit online for 
$4500 if you're hard core DIY (oh, wait, that's why we're here!) but was 
beyond me and a difficult install in this location and not an 
unreasonable installation charge and margin on it.
(see: http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com )

Seeing it, I'm not sure you could go a whole lot cheaper. They make 
smaller ones and have the option to have some kinda switch to drop 
individual high-load non-essential circuits like the AC. But they 
weren't all that much cheaper. Little ones might work for emergencies 
where you can manually intervene, but for a totally unattended 
application I'm thinking you have to pony up for something more.

-w
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From: John Innis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 06:59:44 -0600

Everything you ever wanted to know about propane conversion:
http://www.propane-generators.com

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 6:04 PM, James Stone <[email-masked]> wrote:

> to run on propane.  I really don t need much power; more than anything, I
> want
> to keep the house from freezing if we lose power while we are away, so I d
> be
> happy if all it powered was the furnace,   But, all I have found are pretty
> substantial units that cost close to $2,000, which is more than I want to
> spend for something like this.  Does anyone know if it is possible to
> convert
> a smaller generator to become a standby unit?  Are there any other options
> I
> should consider?
>
> Thanks.
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From: James Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 10:31:04 -0500

Thanks guys.  I will try to answer all of the questions.

The house is on eastern Long Island.  While that isnt a deep freeze area, it
certainly gets cold enough to freeze pipes.  And, with electricity powered by
the infamous LIPA, being without power after a big snow storm is a definite
possibility.
The house is a small cottage: 780 sq feet, two bedrooms, one bathroom.  Full
basemen, full attic.  Minimal 1950s insulation in the walls (about 1 thick),
better in the attic roof.
Draining the house would be pretty easy and that is an option.  However, my
daughter lives in Manhattan and does go out for a visit periodically.  She
didnt inherit my DIY genes, so turning on and re-draining the system is
probably more than shed be able to handle.
The house is occupied less than half the winter, so any kind alternative heat
source is not going to meet the need.
The house has two large propane tanks and the gas company tops them off every
month, so the odds are pretty good wed be fine during a power outage.
While making the house more comfortable while we are there would be a nice
side benefit, my primary interest is in protecting the pipes when we are 1,000
miles away.
Finally, the $2000 number came from this:
http://www.amazon.com/Generac-5837-CorePower-Air-Cooled-Generator/dp/B003XQWY
W0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1388243033&sr=8-1&keywords=standby+generator.  I
havent done any research at all; that was just a quick and dirty search.
And, of course, 2 grand doesnt include installation.  While I suspect I could
handle most, if not all, of the job, I also dont think that would be legal,
so it would have to be done professionally.  I am sure the total bill will
will be well above the 2 grand mark, especially given New York labor rates.

I suspect this is my only option, but I am open to other options.  As I think
about it, it probably doesnt have to be totally automatic.  I could get a
transfer switch and convert a standard generator to propane (thanks for the
conversion link, John) and then ask a friend to go over to the house to power
it up in an emergency. But, I suspect I may as well just go with the small
standby unit at that point.

Thanks again.  Let me know if the above sparks any other ideas.

Jim

want
be
convert
I

[email-masked]

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From: Brian Kemp <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 09:00:08 -0800

Jim - Here is another idea.  Rather than heat the house, how about just 
heating the pipes?  I seem to recall some sort of electrical pipe heater 
wrap that was controlled by a thermostat, set down at about 45 degrees. 
  You could then put insulated pipe wrap on top of that.  If the current 
draw is low enough, you could look at a bank of batteries to power it, 
like people with solar power off the grid.  The batteries could be on a 
good charger so they stay maintained.

I don't know the pricing on this option, but it avoids an engine, 
generator, and transfer switch.  You may even find a small second hand 
system from someone that upgraded to a larger size.

Brian

[email-masked]

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From: Jim <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 12:29:19 -0500

Hmmm. A very interesting idea. I'll do a little research and see what I can learn. 
Thanks. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 28, 2013, at 12:00 PM, "Brian Kemp" <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Jim - Here is another idea.  Rather than heat the house, how about just heating the pipes?  I seem to recall some sort of electrical pipe heater wrap that was controlled by a thermostat, set down at about 45 degrees.  You could then put insulated pipe wrap on top of that.  If the current draw is low enough, you could look at a bank of batteries to power it, like people with solar power off the grid.  The batteries could be on a good charger so they stay maintained.
> 
> I don't know the pricing on this option, but it avoids an engine, generator, and transfer switch.  You may even find a small second hand system from someone that upgraded to a larger size.
> 
> Brian
> 

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