Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water heater quality

From: Paul Parkanzky <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 18:40:40 -0500

I live in Middleville, MI, which is where Bradford White water heaters are
manufactured.  I can't say anything scientific about their relative
quality, but they have a large manufacturing plant that was recently
expanded and it's another brand to consider.

-Paul

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Karl Vacek <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Are there any truly good, durable, natural-gas-fired conventional water
> heaters made nowadays?  It appears that most of the major brands come from
> two main conglomerates: Rheem/Ruud/Richmond/etc. and
> A.O.Smith/Lochinvar/State/etc.  I have a top-of-the-line Lochinvar that I
> installed in 2008 to replace a garden-variety 1986 Rheem water heater which
> had lasted 22 years.  The 5-year-old Lochinvar is bad now, though it hasn't
> blown (yet).  Since the large local distributor I bought from went out of
> business, my warrantee may be void.  The current distributor will only deal
> with licensed contractors, and it appears the factory approves of that.  If
> they eventually honor the 6-year warrantee I'll be good for a few more
> years, but I'd really prefer to put in a better unit now.  If I have to pay
> a, "approved" plumber to come inspect this and tell the factory it was
> indeed installed properly, and then handle the warrantee and install the
> new
> one, it'll cost more than a new heater.
>
>
>
> I've also learned that many water heaters aren't glass-lined any more, and
> indeed this one doesn't say anything on the labels about glass lining.
> Never thought to ask when I bought it from a trusted friend.  We're in the
> Chicago area with Lake Michigan water, which is supposed to be pretty good
> for plumbing, and we've never had water-induced corrosion issues or heard
> of
> them.  I hope there's an anode in the factory-installed outlet fitting, but
> I don't know.  There's no other place one could be screwed in.  The
> factory-installed inlet has no anode - just a plastic dip tube, which I had
> to replace yesterday as it was corroded.  All things I'll look for and
> upgrade as possible in the next water heater.
>
>
>
> I know there are many tankless water heater adherents on the list, but when
> I last checked tankless heaters have short warrantees, cost 3-4 times what
> a
> conventional water heater does, require direct venting, and most require
> "professional" installation.  I only have my clay-lined brick chimney and
> no
> reasonable way to relocate the water heater to a better location.  The
> economics just don't seem to work at all anyway.  Probably a better option
> for those who have electric water heaters.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
> Karl
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From: Benjamin Zwissler <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:31:33 -0500

I've got a Whirlpool that I bought about five years ago from Lowe's.  I've
since found they don't have a very good reputation among professional
installers.  I just replaced my gas control thermostat because I had cold
water and turning the knob all the way to hot didn't turn on the gas.  It
wasn't made by Whirlpool, but by one of the big name gas control companies
who's name I can't remember now.  Another person in our office had the same
thing done to hers recently.  She paid a plumber to do it under the
warranty -- part was free, labor was >$100.  I could have had my part paid
for under warranty but given Lowe's had them in stock for $60 I didn't
bother with that time/hassle.

The interesting and troublesome part of the repalement was that the bottom
of the tank was full of light, fluffy bluish-white material that kept the
water from draining.  It wasn't the hard granules that I've typcially
drained out from water heaters, but looked and felt like large soap flakes.
I hadn't drained the tank the last 3 years or so becuase the valve dripped
after I did it.  We had a water softener fail about a year ago so maybe
that's part of what caused this.  Anyone have any idea what this is?

After replacing the valve and cleaning the foreign material its back to
normal.  It has a 9 year warranty but if I have any more trouble I'm just
replacing it.  We have city water and our last heater lasted about 13 years
before the tank started leaking.  I figure 10 yrs is typical for a water
heater.

Ben.....

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Randall <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > two main conglomerates:
> I don't know who actually made it, but the GE brand heater I got from Home
> Depot about 12 years ago seems to be holding up well.  I
> get some rusty sediment when I open the drain valve every few years, but
> not very much and it likely comes from the cast iron pipes
> leading to the house & heater.
>
> There is a hex head for the anode, but I've never tried to change it.
>  Probably should do that some time.  There's a sticker on the
> side that says to call GE for support, but I've never called them.
>
> When you hook the new one up, be sure to get the flexible lines with the
> insulators at the heater end.  They'll help block any
> galvanic currents that can eat up the heater.  Both this house and my
> previous house didn't have them when I moved in.
>
> Randall
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

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From: Gil Fuqua <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:24:43 +0000

Speaking of GE....my son had a problem with a GE water heater installed in the
house he recently purchased.  He is not a techie person, but willing to try.
He called GE and they walked him through a full diagnostic procedure and he
determined that the thermostat was bad.  He was very impressed with GE's
support.

In the end, the water heater was 10 years old and he elected to replace it
with an identical GE unit from Home Depot.  He is a happy customer.

Gil Fuqua
Nashville

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Randall
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 11:18 AM
To: 'Karl Vacek'; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water heater quality

> Are there any truly good, durable, natural-gas-fired conventional
> water heaters made nowadays?  It appears that most of the major brands
> come from two main conglomerates:

I don't know who actually made it, but the GE brand heater I got from Home
Depot about 12 years ago seems to be holding up well.  I get some rusty
sediment when I open the drain valve every few years, but not very much and it
likely comes from the cast iron pipes leading to the house & heater.

There is a hex head for the anode, but I've never tried to change it.
Probably should do that some time.  There's a sticker on the side that says to
call GE for support, but I've never called them.

When you hook the new one up, be sure to get the flexible lines with the
insulators at the heater end.  They'll help block any galvanic currents that
can eat up the heater.  Both this house and my previous house didn't have them
when I moved in.

Randall

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From: "ElanS4" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:45:43 -0500

> When you hook the new one up, be sure to get the flexible lines with the
insulators <...>

One other modest suggestion.  Get two ball valves and install one on the
intake and the other on the output.  It shure makes things easier in the
future if you have to replace the hot water heater, or do maintenance, etc.

Tim Mullen 

[email-masked]

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From: "ElanS4" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:43:16 -0500

of 
> the tank was full of light, fluffy bluish-white material that kept the
water from 
> draining.  It wasn't the hard granules that I've typcially drained out
from water 
> heaters, but looked and felt like large soap flakes.

I've had something like this for the last 20 years or so...

When it first happened, my buddy explained to me that it was from the
plastic fill pipe that the cold water comes internally in the tank.  It
degrades over time.  The "flakes" feel like thin strips of plastic film.  I
replaced the tank way back then (and once again since then), but that crap
is still in my hot water tanks.  Every now and then, I have to take apart my
shower diverter valve and clean the stuff out.  The shower head too.  The
rest of the house facets occasionally need it.  I don't know if that's
what's wrong with your system, but I have learned to never buy any heaters
with internal plastic "pipes".

Tim Mullen

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From: old dirtbeard <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:03:25 -0800 (PST)

Hi Karl,

More important than the price or the warranty on the heater is that
you need to change out the sacrificial anode rod every five years if you do
not soften your water, and every three years if you have a water softener.
The anode rod will be fully consumed after about five years depending upon
your water and your usage, and then at that point, the liner of the tank
begins to "sacrifice itself."

I think you can keep a water heater almost
indefinitely if you routinely change out the sacrificial anode every
three-five years, depending on your water.

Most of them screw in from the top
next to the water inlet pipe.  Some are actually inserted through the water
inlet pipe.

The cost is between $20-$75 depending upon the size of the tank
and whether you want to aluminium, zinc, or composites.  You can order them
off the web if you local plumbing supply store does not stock them (many do
not).

Aluminum works great but potentially can add aluminum to your water.
 Not a problem unless you are drinking large amounts of hot water. 

I have
been changing  them out for years and have yet needed to replace a water
heater.   I currently have a 75 gallon water heater that is 15 years old and
am just ready to replace the rod again.  It has limited clearance above the
tank so I need to use flexible anode rods so that I can feed them through (the
rods are about the height of the tank and the space above the tank is less
than the height of the tank).
  
best,

doug
________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Moto Guzzi 850T

'01 HD XHL 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
'07 Aprilia SXV 550
'13
Aprilia Tuono V4R

________________________________
 From: Karl Vacek
<[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked] 
Sent: Tuesday, December
10, 2013 2:25 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater quality

Are there any
truly good, durable, natural-gas-fired conventional water
heaters made
nowadays?  It appears that most of the major brands come from
two main
conglomerates: Rheem/Ruud/Richmond/etc. and
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

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From: w <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:34:58 -0500

> future if you have to replace the hot water heater, or do maintenance, etc.

I installed one of the Whirlpool electrics with the "energy smart" 
control from Lowes back in 2006 after getting in a pissing match with my 
propane company, and figuring out electric was cheaper to operate. 
They're made by "American Water Heater" in TN, and I've read some bad 
stories about them, but mine's run fine, and my utility bills have 
dropped. Recovery time on it is very quick.

Other installation tips: I did mine with CPVC spliced into the copper. 
Easy stuff to work with and reasonably priced. I did some stuff plumbers 
would never take the time or expense to do; besides the ball valves on 
BOTH lines, install pipe unions. I had to temporarily move mine to 
install a new, much larger well pressure tank a couple years later, and 
my friend & I drained, disconnected, and slid the heater 3 feet to the 
side for access in under 15 minutes. The unions also let air in rapidly 
for easy routine flushes (and I can crack them open by hand.)

If yours is sitting on concrete, like a basement, the stuff is alkaline 
and often has water vapor coming up through it. You've probably seen 
tanks with the bottom of the housing corroded out. I laid down some of 
the plastic used for tile shower stalls under it as a vapor barrier.

The el-cheapo plastic drain valves like to clog up, leak, and are slow 
to drain. Before you fill the thing, buy a brass pipe nipple, ball 
valve, and hose bib fitting and replace the plastic junk for easy flushes.

This place has lots of good advice and products, but is expensive:
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/OrderPages/XCart/Ball-Valve-Drain-Assembly.html
If you're not short of dough and just want the right stuff quick & easy, 
cost no object, go for it. But you can get it cheaper at any local 
plumbing place.

-Good Luck!  Wayne

[email-masked]

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From: w <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:28:33 -0500

> not soften your water, and every three years if you have a water softener.

Doug, any suggestions on how to unscrew stubborn rods? Need to swap out 
the ones at my Mom's and my own. 1 1/16" socket seems pretty standard 
for them. Mom's won't budge with an 18" breaker bar on it. No compressed 
air; I filled my little portable tank and tried the 1/2" impact on it, 
but couldn't get enough run time to do any good.

-Wayne

[email-masked]

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From: old dirtbeard <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 06:11:04 -0800 (PST)

Hi Wayne,

Once you have it out and replace it, I wrap the threads in pipe
tape so it comes out easy the next time, but that will not help on the first
removal.

I don't recall having that much trouble breaking it loose the first
time, though, I do have a large 3/4" breaker bar that provides a good deal of
leverage.  I am surprised that a impact wrench wouldn't break it loose.  Can
you get a couple extra lengths of air hose to reach it, or borrow a portable
compressor?  

I would have to believe that a 1/2" impact wrench on a portable
compressor would back it out easily, or get a long 3/4" drive breaker bar, or
use a piece of galv. or iron water pipe over the handle of your current
breaker bar to increase your torque. 

Again, though, I am a little surprised
that it is so tight/frozen...
 
best,

doug

________________________________
From: w <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked] 
Sent: Thursday,
December 12, 2013 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water heater quality

On
> not soften your water, and every three
years if you have a water softener.

Doug, any suggestions on how to unscrew
stubborn rods? Need to swap out the ones at my Mom's and my own. 1 1/16"
socket seems pretty standard for them. Mom's won't budge with an 18" breaker
bar on it. No compressed air; I filled my little portable tank and tried the
1/2" impact on it, but couldn't get enough run time to do any good.

-Wayne

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Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
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From: "Karl Vacek" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 08:24:38 -0600

Third try at a reply - my replies to the Forum bounce after a day.

After a long time getting to the right department at Lochinvar, I got a new
water heater under warrantee.  Got it home last night and it's not the same
model - 3" taller, different spacing on the inlet and outlet.  Now I'm
beefing up the stair landing above the heater with steel so I can cut out
the joists to get an inch of clearance for the B-vent.

The new heater has a separate anode, so in a year or two I'll be ordering a
magnesium anode from Waterheaterrescue.com.  And yes, I always use
dielectric unions.

At the same time I'm putting in the Watts instant hot water system - it
pressurizes the hot slightly and by installing a valve at any desired faucet
it keeps the water hot by bypassing the not-so-hot water into the cold side.
This will be a boon in the powder room, because that plumbing is on an
uninsulated outside wall and we leave the faucets trickling in long subzero
spells.  Yeah, it'll take longer to get COLD water, but we drink RO water
from the kitchen anyway.  Besides, toilet flushing will use up the warm
water and probably help prevent toilet tank sweating in the summer.

Thanks to all for the advice!
Karl
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From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 20:15:46 -0600

On Dec 17, 2013, at 8:24, "Karl Vacek" <[email-masked]> wrote:

>  clearance for the B-vent.
>
> magnesium anode from Waterheaterrescue.com.  And yes, I

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