Subject: [Shop-talk] Strange electrical house issues

From: Jim and Kathy <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 11:50:26 -0400

I have a very strange electrical problem at my vacation home and am hoping
someone here has an idea of what could be going on.  I appologize in advance
for the length of this explanation but don't think I can describe it in fewer
words.

All I wanted to do this morning was replace a couple of old (probably from the
60's) outlets.  I removed the outlet from one box and found something strange.
There were two sets of wires in the box, one two wire and one three.  (The
house was built in the late 50's and uses greenfield cable with the ground
coming from the box.). The two black wires were connected and the right side
of the outlet had one white wire connected  and the left  side had one white
and one red.  The outlet was an old non-grounded one, so there was no way to
tell which side was supposed to be hot.  But, my simple electrical tester
showed the side with the two wires was the hot side; that is, both completed a
circuit when touched to the single white wire or the box.  What may be
significant that didn't register to begin with is the fact that both wires
(the red and the white on the left side) were hot.

It was all strange but I replaced the outlet with a new one, wiring it exactly
as before.  Everything tested fine, so I was about to move to the second
outlet when we realized that about half of the circuits in the house were out.
All circuit breakers looked fine.  I then remembered that the two left wires
were both hot, meaning it wasn't a case where one cable was going in and the
other going out.  It occurred to me the original outlet might have been
adapted for two circuits, although there were no tabs to break off as in a
modern receptacle.  I broke the left side tab off of the new outlet but
nothing changed.  At one point, I also turned off and on the main and each
circuit breaker but nothing changed.  Then, several circuits came back on, but
at what appeared to be half power.  I don't have a meter here but the lights
were very dim.

I tested a GFCI that was on the same circuit and it was not working, at least
until I got a shock and realized that the white wire was open but black was
still hot.  I got the shock by touching the ground and black at the same
time.

OK, last bit of diagnostic info.  I dismantled the old original outlet and it
is not designed for separate circuits. The two wires on the left were being
tied together, exactly as they had been when I first replaced it with a modern
one.

Everything worked just fine before I replaced the outlet.  The only problem
was that it was worn and didn't hold a plug in very tight.  Now I don't know
what the heck is going on or what I may have done wrong.  Does anyone have any
ideas?

Thanks.

Jim
Sent from my iPad
_______________________________________________

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From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 08:21:05 -0500 FILETIME=[9ACB98C0:01CE295B]

I
am home now and think I understand what is up and what needs to be done.
It is actually pretty simple in the end, but given
the way it was done
originally, I still want to run things by this group before
I fix it.

I traced the wires back to the panel and from the outlet box out.  The two
wire conduit was the circuit in, the
three wire went out to the ceiling
fan/light box.  (My recollection about the two switch boxes was
wrong; it was
a single box with a double switch.) Here is where it gets
interesting.  The
red and black wires
were just connected together in the switch box. 
So, that
explains why the red wire was hot in the outlet; it was just coming
back that
way from the switch box.

The black and red wires were joined in the switch box  with another black for
the next circuit and a jumper wire that went to the common side of the duplex
switch.  Another three wire left the
switch box for the fan/light.  All three
whites
were joined and the new red/black/wires wires went off to the
fan/light.

So, while I still don't understand what was done to begin, it seems to me
that
all I have to do now is ignore the red wire in the outlet box and wire
the
outlet as normal with a white/black in and a white/black out to the fan
switch
box.  I think the switch as wired will be
fine.

Does this all make sense?  Am I missing
anything?  It seems too easy after
the
complications and I am still left with a nagging doubt about how and why
it was originally wired.

As
for the original, I think I know now how it
was wired and what I did wrong when
I replaced the outlet.  The two white
wires should have been on the same side, with just the red wire on the other.
It would be making a very circuitous route,
from the outlet box to the switch
box and back, but I think it would work.  Still, it would be much easier to
just eliminate it and wire it the normal way. 
Correct?

As
always,
thanks!

Jim

[email-masked]

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From: Randall <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 0:30:39 +0000

> complications and I am still left with a nagging doubt about how and why

Makes sense to me.  I'll guess that the original configuration was one of the switches controlling the outlet (hence the extra red wire carried power from the switch back to the outlet).  Or maybe someone just got confused and pulled an extra wire then wasn't sure what to do with it.

My only comment is that I would prefer to tie off (insulate) the red wire in some fashion at both ends.  Don't take a chance on the next guy forgetting that it is unused, and connecting it to power at one end.

Lots of strange things happen over the years.  My previous house had a fuse in the neutral at the box.  When the fuse opened up, most of the lights went very dim while the one in the utility room (and perhaps a few others) got extremely bright.

Randall

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