Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys

From: Pat Horne <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 19:28:23 -0500

Dave,

My dodge van uses transponder keys also...I think most cars do these 
days. A standard brass key can be used to open the door and unlock the 
steering wheel, but will not start the car. If it does start the car, 
the fuel pump won't run and it will die right away. I have a brass key 
taped to the back of my rear license plate just in case I lock my keys 
in the car. I would use the same type of brass key  if I were the 
outdoors type and didn't want to hike or run with the chance of loosing 
the transponder key in my pocket. Just lock the transponder key inside 
the car (hidden) and use the cheap key to open the door.

A locksmith or the dealer will need to program the transponder, unless 
you have at least 2 functioning transponder keys. It may be possible to 
program the new transponder key yourself, I know I can on my Dodge van.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Dave C

> I just got a 2013 Subaru Forester.  It apparently uses transponder 
> keys.  It looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my 
> wallet are over.  So what's the deal with transponder keys? Can Ace 
> Hardware clone them?  What's the deal about only being able to 
> "program" a maximum of four keys for the car (as per the manual)? Can 
> I make an unlimited number of clones?   Why is everything such a PITA 
> these days?    (I feel a rant coming on....)
>
> FWIW this car DOES NOT have remote start, although of course it does 
> have remote door lock fobs.
>
> Thanks
> Dave
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-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice & Text	5026 FM 2001
[email-masked]	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
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From: Dave C <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:07:53 -0700

I hadn't thought of that; good idea.

On 3/17/2013 5:28 PM, Pat Horne wrote:
> I would use the same type of brass key  if I were the outdoors type 
> and didn't want to hike or run with the chance of loosing the 
> transponder key in my pocket. Just lock the transponder key inside the 
> car (hidden) and use the cheap key to open the door. 

[email-masked]

---

From: Jimmie Mayfield <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:43:38 -0400

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 12:54:14PM -0700, Dave C wrote:
> I just got a 2013 Subaru Forester.  It apparently uses transponder keys.  
> It looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my wallet are 
> over.  So what's the deal with transponder keys?  Can Ace Hardware clone 
> them?  What's the deal about only being able to "program" a maximum of four 
> keys for the car (as per the manual)? Can I make an unlimited number of 
> clones?   Why is everything such a PITA these days?    (I feel a rant 
> coming on....)
> 

Over the last 10 years or so, there have been numerous documented hacks
of RFID-based ignition systems.  Some vehicles don't even need a mechanical
key to unlock the steering column.  This means someone can steal your vehicle
without leaving any damage (which, I would assume, will lead insurance
companies to deny claims on the basis that there's no evidence that the 
vehicle was actually stolen).

So, instead of a brass backup key in your wallet or hidden under a body panel,
perhaps all you need is a smartphone (or maybe a Raspberry Pi), an RFID
transmitter and an appropriate RFID cracking app...
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

---

From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:56:37 -0400

I'm not ultra-knowledgeable about the keys in general, but the cars I've 
had have all been slightly different in how they executed them. I've got 
a Cadillac CTS-V now, and that's the first one that actually made me 
nervous--there are no holes in the door to manually unlock it with a 
key. If the transmitter in the fob dies...well, I assume there has to be 
a failsafe and it's in the owner's manual. Hopefully.

As far as I know, most of them have a RFID chip in the key (or some 
proximity chip). If the key with which you're trying to start the car 
doesn't signal the car with the chip, either (depending on the make, 
etc.) the wheel won't unlock, the engine won't crank, the ignition won't 
energize (so the engine will spin but no spark), the or the fuel pump 
won't power up.

The VW's I've had with this can't be copied anywhere but the VW service 
center. Not the dealer, the dealer has to send your VIN off to someone 
who will send them a key. $150 for the key/fob, $175 to program it and 
it takes a few weeks. Fords were easier. Cadillac was the best--the keys 
are cheap (though there are several variations so you have to be careful 
about buying the right one), anyone can cut the physical key, and then 
you can program it in the car with an OBD-like tool that most places 
seem to have. I *think* you can even buy them yourself as easily as a 
code puller (for all I know, the code puller itself does it), but the 
locksmith I went to charged me $20 to cut the key and program it, so I 
just paid him.

All that to say that there seems to be a lot of variation. Hope the 
Subie is one of the easy ones.

On 3/17/2013 3:54 PM, Dave C wrote:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

[email-masked]

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From: Shannah Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700

In our case, with our two Priuses (Prii?) we sort of have
a key: if you press the right switch on the transponder,
a tiny almost toy key comes out that will unlock the doors.
It does not start the car.

We've had transponder keys for at least 10 years.  These
are the type you leave in your pocket, and simply touch the
door handle to get in.  You press a button to start the car.
So, the transponder is used a lot.  Still, we get a lot of warning
when there is a transponder problem (low battery) and we just
go to the dealer to replace it.

You can probably also google for instructions on how to
replace the battery yourself.  My mechanic showed me and it
was a simple process.

Shannah

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Dave C <[email-masked]> wrote:

> FWIW this car DOES NOT have remote start, although of course it does have
> remote door lock fobs.
>
> Thanks
> Dave
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> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
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From: Roland Wilhelmy <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:45:52 -0700

Radio Shack stocks batteries for some transponders.  You're on your
own for opening the cases.

-Roland

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700, you wrote:

::In our case, with our two Priuses (Prii?) we sort of have
::a key: if you press the right switch on the transponder,
::a tiny almost toy key comes out that will unlock the doors.
::It does not start the car.
::
::We've had transponder keys for at least 10 years.  These
::are the type you leave in your pocket, and simply touch the
::door handle to get in.  You press a button to start the car.
::So, the transponder is used a lot.  Still, we get a lot of warning
::when there is a transponder problem (low battery) and we just
::go to the dealer to replace it.
::
::You can probably also google for instructions on how to
::replace the battery yourself.  My mechanic showed me and it
::was a simple process.
::
::Shannah
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

---

From: Shannah Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:15:59 -0700

For ours, like I said, my mechanic showed me how to
replace the batteries.  The batteries are CR2032 so I
doubt we'll have any issues.

Whether or not this is true for all transponder keys, I
don't know.  I know that there are ones out there that
do not open the same as ours.

Shannah

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Roland Wilhelmy <[email-masked]> wrote:

> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

[email-masked]

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From: Battmain <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:48:15 -0700 (PDT)

If you google hard enough, you should be able to find both the 'how to' and
the tools.(if needed.) That old saying--Where there is a will, there is a way.
:)

The keys can be cut elsewhere. Some home depot, lowes or even walmart can
cut the keys for you. Dealers want to make you think they are the only ones
that can do it. To bypass the limitation, you *might* need the dealer
programmer, but even that is available on eBay. Is it worth the cost vs a trip
to the dealer? Only you can decide. 

Regards,
Brian

From: Dave C
<[email-masked]>
>To: [email-masked] 
>Sent: Sunday, March
17, 2013 3:54 PM
>Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
> 
>I
just got a 2013 Subaru Forester.  It apparently uses transponder keys.  It
looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my wallet are over. 
So what's the deal with transponder keys?  Can Ace Hardware clone them? 
What's the deal about only being able to "program" a maximum of four keys for
the car (as per the manual)? Can I make an unlimited number of clones?   Why
is everything such a PITA these days?    (I feel a rant coming on....)
>FWIW
this car DOES NOT have remote start, although of course it does have remote
door lock fobs.
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

---

From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 02:06:19 -0400

I got to be a pro at replacing the batteries on the VAG (VW) fobs. They 
don't *look* like they want to be opened, but it's easy after the first 
time and you realize you're not going to break it.

Of course, Radio Shack (near me) doesn't carry the battery, but they're 
common and Amazon Prime has them here in two days.

I haven't had to do the GM one yet. I don't remember the Ford ones being 
a problem--only had to do those once, maybe twice.

[email-masked]

---

From: Mark Andy <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 09:51:58 -0400

Howdy,

Suddenly I care about this, as a new owner of a 2012 GTI... :-)

When you replace the battery, do you have to reprogram anything?

Mark

On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Scott <[email-masked]> wrote:
> don't *look* like they want to be opened, but it's easy after the first time
> and you realize you're not going to break it.
>
> I haven't had to do the GM one yet. I don't remember the Ford ones being a
> problem--only had to do those once, maybe twice.
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: Paul Parkanzky <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:01:14 -0400

Mark,

I've had a number of VW's and Audi's and the batteries in those switchblade
keys last a really long time.  When you change them, you don't typically
have to do any additional programming or anything.  Programming comes when
you get a new fob that was not previously associated with your car.

I think people are confusing terms here.  The transponder keys are just
normal keys that you put into the ignition.  They are separate from the
keyless entry feature in your car.  They have an added security feature
that requires a transponder chip to be near the ignition before the car
will be allowed to start.  These have been on GM cars for at least a
decade.  I now have a car with the keyless ignition.  That is the type of
key that allows you to unlock your door and start the car with the key in
your pocket.  The transponder key doesn't require any kind of battery to
work.  The keyless ignition fob does require a battery and it goes through
them more quickly than a traditional keyless entry remote.
-Paul

[email-masked]

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From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:09:53 -0400

Nope, just pull the key off the end of the fob assembly, split the 
transmitter part of the assembly, and swap the battery.

If you ever have to to it, let me know. It's a two-minute job, no tools.

Have I mentioned recently how much I love working on German cars? Almost 
like someone thought about it when they were designing the car.

[email-masked]

---

From: Dave C <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:40:12 -0700

On 3/18/2013 7:01 AM, Paul Parkanzky wrote:
> will be allowed to start.

Which brings us back to my original post.

I have spent some more time with Google and reading your posts (thanks 
for the responses) and think I have it figured out.  First of all, yes, 
I am just concerned with the keys, not the keyless entry fob.

The transponder keys apparently have one of various types of RFID chip 
embedded in them.  The car is programmed to recognize that particular 
chip and won't start if the chip is not accompanying the key.  You can 
get a plain mechanical key that will unlock the door, but it won't start 
the car without the chip embedded in it.

According to Subaru you can only program the car to recognize four 
keys.  They get about $150 for a new key.  I talked to a locksmith 
today, and they can "clone" one of my existing keys for about $75 or so, 
and since it's a clone, the car shouldn't know the difference and it 
won't "count" against the total of four.

Since RFID chips are cheap and very common, I can only assume the 
dealers charge so much to for the keys and programming just because they 
can make a lot of money on it.  The locksmiths are doing OK, too, as it 
looks like the wholesale price on clone keys is about $25 or so.

In the short term I am just going to get a plain flat mechanical key for 
my wallet in case I lock the keys in the car.

Thanks again.

[email-masked]