From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Mar 1 09:58:39 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C871427EE for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 09:58:39 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from snt0-omc2-s41.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc2-s41.snt0.hotmail.com [65.54.61.92]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33C73427A4 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 09:41:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from SNT002-W21 ([65.55.90.73]) by snt0-omc2-s41.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 1 Mar 2013 08:34:04 -0800 From: PJ McGarvey To: Shop Talk Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 11:34:03 -0500 FILETIME=[96412730:01CE169A] Subject: [Shop-talk] Duluth Trading - clothing quality? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Got a couple catalogs recently and was looking to pick up some "shop" related clothing. Free shipping expires in two weeks. Anyone have opinions on the clothing quality or sizing? Seems there are some complaints online about their quality having fallen with alot of their stuff being made in China. Thanks _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Mar 1 13:02:28 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF2BF42595 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 13:02:28 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.32]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D5F427C4 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 12:46:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.28]) by qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 6DNj1l0060cQ2SLA3Kfh1M; Fri, 01 Mar 2013 19:39:41 +0000 Received: from sz0220.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.138]) by omta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 6Kfg1l00U2yr1eL8WKfgFn; Fri, 01 Mar 2013 19:39:40 +0000 Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 19:39:40 +0000 (UTC) From: pethier@comcast.net To: PJ McGarvey s=q20121106; t=1362166781; bh=nemlYrynQNONxV3+LNUffGmGvXK3bazfsd3cofg3yHc=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=QgA+cZp7J8SIpKJDLy7VMVc50J/urJA9/edwd/w8Y/7+VpLd3v0LIq7QQyahCHR3G gDhEQf8OAg8CUzD2ZazLljhaKMRwg+7xuMrgnvDi9tu0IHow4rn87JsaA+BcxB1MZU I2B8iwffcPK6p3KXZwhLNYZo2LSirSI3euDjSzO1MXIf5hbeduvHRdYv2kwnSQpejR rXlUner4+pgZr89lG6EsyR9UmvwZM9g3YrtQCVz7mmJr3uC4bwM3IxHk8D78ZqjuaS dL4gJUkypjGLuBWYcsvDhR6+ckOYMYgNMn9ZDC/ZUx+Ek9TWbXbweN6sozL1ABExap auhDoYJdaWdoQ== Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Duluth Trading - clothing quality? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net My complaint has been that they are nowhere near Duluth. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier@comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica http://www.mnautox.com http://www.mntriumphs.org ----- Original Message ----- > From: "PJ McGarvey" > To: "Shop Talk" > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 10:34:03 AM > Subject: [Shop-talk] Duluth Trading - clothing quality? > Got a couple catalogs recently and was looking to pick up some "shop" > related > clothing. Free shipping expires in two weeks. > Anyone have opinions on the clothing quality or sizing? Seems there > are some > complaints online about their quality having fallen with alot of their > stuff > being made in China. > Thanks > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier@comcast.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Mar 1 19:36:17 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABC84424C5 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 19:36:17 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta41.charter.net (mta41.charter.net [216.33.127.83]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8210424DE for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 19:11:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp11 ([10.20.200.11]) by mta41.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.02 201-2260-151-103-20110920) with ESMTP id <20130302020431.YLCE10143.mta41.charter.net@imp11> for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 21:04:31 -0500 Received: from wt03 ([209.225.8.43]) by imp11 with smtp.charter.net id 6S4X1l00D0vicD505S4X0k; Fri, 01 Mar 2013 21:04:31 -0500 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:17 a=cxKuJJEeAZ8A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=sjy0q1dPpr0A:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=Txs9zPttokkA:10 a=WLvXU8GAOz-iMBviqyYA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:117 Received: from [96.42.24.160] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 21:04:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 21:04:31 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Shop Talk User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Duluth Trading - clothing quality? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Meant to send this to the list not just the OP...... Welllll, since their warehouse is a mile from my house and their second brick and mortar store as well as their call center is just a little farther away I guess I could chime in.... I have gone to several of their tent sales that they have had every summer before they built the store in town here. I was mainly looking at tools and what not (and some of the coats) but seem to remember that my thoughts were towards "this stuff is cheap" (quality). The made in china thing really chafes but is also pretty tough to avoid. I suppose with free shipping you could get one item and see if you like it. tim On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 10:34 AM, PJ McGarvey wrote: > Got a couple catalogs recently and was looking to pick up some "shop" > related > clothing. Free shipping expires in two weeks. > Anyone have opinions on the clothing quality or sizing? Seems there > are some > complaints online about their quality having fallen with alot of their > stuff > being made in China. > Thanks _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Mar 1 23:23:49 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B1DD4282D for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 23:23:49 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.211]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67F17424DE for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 22:58:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta22.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.89]) by qmta11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 6Vlx1l0011vN32cABVre9j; Sat, 02 Mar 2013 05:51:38 +0000 Received: from SusieandMarkPC ([76.21.64.167]) by omta22.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 6Vrd1l00A3cWj0U8iVrdcK; Sat, 02 Mar 2013 05:51:38 +0000 From: "Mark Miller" To: References: Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 21:51:40 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac4WsHtb8LictSQXRumt8TGlNEDy8wAWO2nw s=q20121106; t=1362203498; bh=9d3RSU9GIgSpLgoo1xKcCWVPP8n7/mhHn9UbzFRwotY=; h=Received:Received:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=S36G37vPBd6KfPhoXW9I/kY6Dvz/mMXBw5Mgt8kI3WFfYXr/XKgKw6fyXhGQKS5ho xdMPWiswNSxNgvOdedckpnEIErMa+L2T46VX5ntEOy5swk6QF+EGI+F/ca8zNKV8Ei JYyR8rKkrdJnKHOK3pMIroFM+eNmlcq9PAIwwpYdE+AVh3V2N90p3RkBCQNspkiPuO s34O7jY+LlersccHEhNsYygI3Zm9Wd/eJSoApSL+dUZhB/AyMeSF5utvM131/Fluhm XEjH5k927xPEhOU2HnpuUfJiWrCMLXUUFQjJZxSXx5TLggq06J2/Yen2Uc/kvo4DG9 kAqC1lb8VRHOw== Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] inexpensive nail guns Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I bought one like this, also on ebay, 7 or 8 years ago. There are always a bunch of them up for sale. Built my house with it, and since then have run a few boxes of nails through it (so far), still going strong. I am a strong believer in good used over crap new . And in oiling nail guns. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Bostitch-Framing-Nail-Gun-N79WW-28-degree-/2711 64188833?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f22a528a1 Mark Miller. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Mar 2 09:17:44 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEC7D428A1 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 09:17:44 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.228]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6504044E for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 08:52:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.35]) by qmta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 6f4G1l0020lTkoCAFflL6m; Sat, 02 Mar 2013 15:45:20 +0000 Received: from BigBlack ([24.22.207.129]) by omta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 6flJ1l00X2o2ZTs8QflK7q; Sat, 02 Mar 2013 15:45:20 +0000 From: "Bob Kegel" To: "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA" , "Shop Talk" References: <5ECE883FF9CF42D0A8CEE045AE617165@StevePC> Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 07:45:09 -0800 s=q20121106; t=1362239120; bh=EGpHdb4gzXbuioIlcvOXtP9Pyviejzo/ag8V1ILaBGE=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=dX0hg8qx3wRrwNC176Me2yTcXa2WF+7L+2zTU+XICzehOQxVS0woCuIC/yGA1gyei ZkMEoEL7mDY+gRxaAJKghqvkdrS+3ixP4hapQo5xd1Z9UIzoy1sqtO3DbpudyBiWNz Nak9fGytqWsVYiTngQagGxy6+tqDJnAW61LQFsEKsHzG2l/NKgLruDZrQswaO6y+UV 2c+0o2BTSOA5t+onaHGkQl4RpTYPYsODl/bc5Wr56rbvFJy7s71x60JzGefG/KlGSB IpAGLNbBXfT7ShrzVNPdbqVYNjcs/aKaforS/q0DEFeg3cPUm3a0S7cE+CaCGxighY r0MazLCtXmGsg== Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Corrosion protection for tools Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I've sprayed Boeshield on my vise and some other tools. The film dries to a non-tacky finish with a slight gloss. I haven't used it on anything exposed to the weather, but so far, so good. Bob K Aberdeen, WA _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Mar 2 11:32:11 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80900428F6 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 11:32:11 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23A6428EE for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 11:03:59 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 12:42:12 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 03/02/2013 12:43:29, Serialize complete at 03/02/2013 12:43:29 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool cabinets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net OK, I'm thinking about upgrading my current shops work bench. The area is my 'main' work surface. Currently, I have a bunch of metal cabinets that came out of a hospital's ER room. They are study, but they don't hold alot of weight in the drawers. So I was going to upgrade. What I'm looking for is something like this... >http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200581343_200581343< But without the wheels, and no lip on the top (so I can put a wood counter top over it.), oh yeah, and about a 1/3rd of the price! I can't find anything anywhere like this. This is for a stationary cabinet. Ideally I will have two of them, side by side. I found a cheap one on sale... >http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200582752_200582752< But it doesn't look that sturdy. Nor does it allow me to put them end to end (unless I cut the top down.) So, does anyone know of a source to check for these? Am I crazy for not needing a rolling toll cabinet? TIA. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Mar 2 13:05:09 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB95D42911 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 13:05:09 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-lb0-f177.google.com (mail-lb0-f177.google.com [209.85.217.177]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADC29428FA for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 12:41:48 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-lb0-f177.google.com with SMTP id go11so2979938lbb.8 for ; Sat, 02 Mar 2013 11:34:25 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=zQ9mKoWEoh9t/ubK+gAD+4+6Jz0n9bYJqQRif6RJ1ho=; b=N2VoBBQGi3UwIlRUFB0Byp7Nk+y8hNIcMPuqK1FmTBKtNjibFrEPgqgMGCdmVialjH DT2yO3/ZxANaFWH3Bfcca8U3CCbCnTzkFK2DMDOLEcCPX+iPzSyt28ldjZIMS9ou43s3 emXoXjUGW2WxDd/eYcyH9LOw9rV7kGwhsJUDBEr2yM6v12/X/Y1In6hqGnFembXsKGau /YUADjYJnbDnQ6GtwynDZk4Sa9M5wz1hk6Ku9EYuIb4YSBxYyH68ghDvXBHngW9YTFjH ia1uPRLcB6s0jVXfdel85hJv1Nn7dMu9yQnBSI/9EqeM/NoetcM4lo5+OU+CL6n79y4V 3LlQ== ez6mr2389752lbb.86.1362252864863; Sat, 02 Mar 2013 11:34:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.41.164 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 11:34:24 -0800 (PST) References: Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 14:34:24 -0500 From: Jeff Scarbrough To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tool cabinets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 12:42 PM, wrote: > So, does anyone know of a source to check for these? Am I crazy for not > needing a rolling toll cabinet? Here's a supplier of exactly what you want: http://www.modulinecabinets.com/garage-drawer2.html A few minutes on that site, and you'll feel a lot better about the price of your rolling cabinet. No, you aren't crazy for not needing wheels. I spent 5 years as a professional mechanic, and used the wheels sometimes; mainly because time was money - literally. Why take time to step for a tool when you could just reach. Of course, 90% of what I did was repetitive, so there wasn't much contemplation required. As a hobbyist mechanic, though, it's a different thing. For most folks, you are doing something you don't do very often, so it pays to slow down a bit and ponder your next step, next process, next tool. Also gives you a chance to swing by the chilly bin on your way from car to toolbox. And time isn't nearly as much of an issue when you are doing something you enjoy....since I quit the life of the schmieraffe and brought my tools home, I've used the wheels maybe three times in 20 years, only when I rearranged the shop. I'd look at pawn shops for used toolboxes, talk to the guy on the tool truck if you can catch him, and study Craigslist in your area. Be patient, and a bargain will come to you eventually. Most likely, though, just after you bought that $1500 rolling box. Curious about the ER cabinets - I've got some old metal laboratory furniture, and it's pretty stout. A lot better than the kitchen cabinets I just bought down at the big box. I'd be finding a way to re-use what I already had, if it's possible... Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Mar 2 13:36:20 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 522724290C for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 13:36:20 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from outbound-mail02.vgs.untd.com (outbound-mail02.vgs.untd.com [64.136.55.36]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id B031E40530 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 13:21:07 -0700 (MST) s=alpha; t=1362255224; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=From:Date:Cc:Subject:Message-Id:Content-Type:To; b=S8Seo9faDQpCQpLQ/lUx9GvXdxMtWB0uRBaFyGLvBtkVpLJQjQQJ0xYiDzWqUDMLX kXRbax/JLB5/rCygCsv40F7TIwwlCXxgJ9r2TjQ8kl/wMgEz28JyVZ5Q4/McBRfMEz lvb9OapyRP3ZIkp9OqnKUIOoppKuVHeHahxMtpSQ= Received: from outbound-bu1.vgs.untd.com (webmail15.vgs.untd.com [10.181.12.155]) by smtpout03.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABJVEZMDAM3QM4A for (sender ); Sat, 2 Mar 2013 12:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.42.238.6] by webmail15.vgs.untd.com with HTTP: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:13:00 GMT From: "Matt" Full-Name: "Matt" Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:13:00 GMT Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net To: Undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tool cabinets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I will second Jeff's tip about Craigslist if you have the time.Another option is there are likely some liquidation places in the NE.I recently saw a few pieces on the Atlanta Craigslist that were listed by an industrial liquidator in the SE and they seemed to have a large supply of used Vidmar cabinets at attractive prices.That would probably be best for you - find a couple of Vidmars at a good price used. Matt ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Jeff Scarbrough To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tool cabinets Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 14:34:24 -0500 On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 12:42 PM, wrote: > So, does anyone know of a source to check for these? Am I crazy for not > needing a rolling toll cabinet? Here's a supplier of exactly what you want: http://www.modulinecabinets.com/garage-drawer2.html A few minutes on that site, and you'll feel a lot better about the price of your rolling cabinet. No, you aren't crazy for not needing wheels. I spent 5 years as a professional mechanic, and used the wheels sometimes; mainly because time was money - literally. Why take time to step for a tool when you could just reach. Of course, 90% of what I did was repetitive, so there wasn't much contemplation required. As a hobbyist mechanic, though, it's a different thing. For most folks, you are doing something you don't do very often, so it pays to slow down a bit and ponder your next step, next process, next tool. Also gives you a chance to swing by the chilly bin on your way from car to toolbox. And time isn't nearly as much of an issue when you are doing something you enjoy....since I quit the life of the schmieraffe and brought my tools home, I've used the wheels maybe three times in 20 years, only when I rearranged the shop. I'd look at pawn shops for used toolboxes, talk to the guy on the tool truck if you can catch him, and study Craigslist in your area. Be patient, and a bargain will come to you eventually. Most likely, though, just after you bought that $1500 rolling box. Curious about the ER cabinets - I've got some old metal laboratory furniture, and it's pretty stout. A lot better than the kitchen cabinets I just bought down at the big box. I'd be finding a way to re-use what I already had, if it's possible... Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mbarre@juno.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Mar 2 15:52:20 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32B164294B for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 15:52:20 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-gh0-f170.google.com (mail-gh0-f170.google.com [209.85.160.170]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01464294B for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 15:32:42 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-gh0-f170.google.com with SMTP id g14so652239ghb.1 for ; Sat, 02 Mar 2013 14:25:19 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bCHFiyNur1UEP1qVHs3zLgY2GCES9YZETfDPVEkAPgQ=; b=xNDE+Ofs7u5WZaUEKsn/5oCp5Iv0mWKTlwyRJzaTdabI5RHHtSZNySRtRazSvXjcjy 9LUQoeT1U7CXOpaHMVGD5kfErYZESCGBAu1z/ZtoNqFncc5MKrXbUku7D/0nPq++TZO/ s4DIHTQgFJznaKEFtWxuTVh9U1DBKW99STXXPFCDAhWnjKH2Y94ENeCvcvFqezGkxLoB lq+/yAACDwtcGNLAB32hKNuRMQ6GBAexuw+sHTaQfF5y8oecWCOgIiafzykBWtJXOOSL qQGFkih8PWjzDtbVTO1xNYdP4z0Tm4PnH57gTgNXkDlvh3hB1GD28c3t6t79HbEqazvw fnCA== c63mr10624837yhi.91.1362263119448; Sat, 02 Mar 2013 14:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r43sm22453788yhl.19.2013.03.02.14.25.18 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 02 Mar 2013 14:25:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 17:25:16 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130215 Thunderbird/17.0.3 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tool cabinets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I agree completely with Jeff, with an even more anti-wheel sentiment. I also worked as a mechanic, and the only time I've ever used the wheels was to roll the box into the shop when I started and out when I quit. Likewise, I agree with the home mechanic sentiment too. I find the trips to the box for a new tool give me time to think about what I'm about to destructively disassemble next. And if it's something for which I really want to have 'x' set of tools with me, I far prefer a tray or small rolling cart to keep them on. The box itself it a huge pain in to actually move. So much so that I'll be doing away with the wheels entirely on the next box. It'll be easier to place without the wheels. Scott On 3/2/2013 2:34 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > Here's a supplier of exactly what you want: > http://www.modulinecabinets.com/garage-drawer2.html A few minutes on > that site, and you'll feel a lot better about the price of your > rolling cabinet. No, you aren't crazy for not needing wheels. I spent > 5 years as a professional mechanic, and used the wheels sometimes; > mainly because time was money - literally. Why take time to step for a > tool when you could just reach. Of course, 90% of what I did was > repetitive, so there wasn't much contemplation required. As a hobbyist > mechanic, though, it's a different thing. For most folks, you are > doing something you don't do very often, so it pays to slow down a bit > and ponder your next step, next process, next tool. Also gives you a > chance to swing by the chilly bin on your way from car to toolbox. And > time isn't nearly as much of an issue when you are doing something you > enjoy....since I quit the life of the schmieraffe and brought my tools > home, I've used the wheels maybe three times in 20 years, only when I > rearranged the shop. I'd look at pawn shops for used toolboxes, talk > to the guy on the tool truck if you can catch him, and study > Craigslist in your area. Be patient, and a bargain will come to you > eventually. Most likely, though, just after you bought that $1500 > rolling box. Curious about the ER cabinets - I've got some old metal > laboratory furniture, and it's pretty stout. A lot better than the > kitchen cabinets I just bought down at the big box. I'd be finding a > way to re-use what I already had, if it's possible... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Mar 2 16:37:12 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D96024297E for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 16:37:12 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF1840403 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 16:13:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from mark.bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by bradakis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0086A1069 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 16:07:37 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 16:07:36 -0700 From: Mark J Bradakis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:18.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/18.0 SeaMonkey/2.15.2 To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tool cabinets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Rolling big tool boxes around rarely happens. More likely a service cart will do the trick as a handy, on the spot place to keep the tools currently in use and the parts, spray cans, etc. mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Mar 2 17:24:56 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D43A64297E for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 17:24:56 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-lb0-f176.google.com (mail-lb0-f176.google.com [209.85.217.176]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A69F4296B for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 17:00:17 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-lb0-f176.google.com with SMTP id s4so3130695lbc.35 for ; Sat, 02 Mar 2013 15:52:54 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=R3cAnR7OCoH72OGcsDMKOdQUMCcciT0RnGnno3G3WcI=; b=jZIZBtnD49YphMLHy9PMJSwg3gC2D/KCRGLpfi/MsZ9JM1jWQOcQg1arKmRqYFZKVp a16q14UIZgu6Cd42PwnoPv5XoLqpH/ytNaqSbyRqqshpsUJVvl4xIMnRCNQX3kCSvFLg v+2Ml6ywb7nzywHQKLRtu/Gu2NaI6YqglpnISwMwQ/tbYVkthnAGr2oCyU9YTBL5lqbB y2cjyGhcP1DXr44vemUPaRa920kAj2yJq3wV8/2iCN24xXwdZdsRLwpBplpa9po9IhoT VaiM2CyXhWpHh30/VliEQKHiov1qRGjCb9+ayKGfsLOzb98Cv5rfBcG1t+9h1opSFKZ1 yGEA== pl4mr13424609lab.54.1362268374221; Sat, 02 Mar 2013 15:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.41.164 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 15:52:54 -0800 (PST) References: <51328638.4030007@bradakis.com> Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 18:52:54 -0500 From: Jeff Scarbrough To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tool cabinets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: > More likely a service > cart will do the trick as a handy, on the spot place to keep the tools > currently in use Betraying my Northern European car roots, I've always wanted one of these: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16982 The guy who taught me to be a VW mechanic in my first job had one, and it was the best compromise for mobility and storage that you could want. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Mar 2 19:41:10 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4EEE429CD for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 19:41:10 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ACB04294A for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 18:59:17 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:37:29 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 03/02/2013 20:38:46, Serialize complete at 03/02/2013 20:38:46 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool Cabinets, UPDATE with a question at the end Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net OK, so I was in Lowes today returning a carpet stretcher (found almost the same one at Horrible Freight for half the price.) ANYWAY, I got to looking at the tool cabinets. Their 'top of the line' 18 draw 53" model was right there. $1899, NO WAY. So my, always wise, SO (who is doing much better- thanks for the support) told me to ask the guy if there were any ones with dents in it on clearance. He shows me one about 1/2 the size for about $930. I'm not interested. So I get to asking him about the big one (you know, the one with the built in electrical boxes and stereo system) and he asked me what I wanted to pay for it. I told him, as little as possible. He asks me if a 20% discount would be enough. I tell him only if I can get my Veteran's discount and use my tax free status on it (I am a farm and all my tools are not taxed.) He says, "Sure". I say, lets load it up. It was about $1360 even. So I got this box... >http://www.lowes.com/pd_351108-55738-TB53SS11_0__?productId=3439322&Ntt=tool+cabinets&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dtool%2Bcabinets&facetInfo=< (Note, some of them come with refrigerators and that would be a complete waste for me. Mine doesn't have it.) Now, I'm still in the market for cabinets, but not nearly as urgent. (thanks for all the links.) One last question, is there a 'logical' way to organize a big chest like this? I mean there are obvious things like most used tools at the convenent level, but I was wondering if there was any pointers for someone setting up a new box. BEFORE I add all my stuff and then have to rearrange it. THANKS AGAIN GUYS! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Mar 2 20:31:27 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9510C42A1B for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:31:27 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm21.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm21.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.222]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 346AE4044B for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 19:57:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.194] by nm21.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2013 02:49:43 -0000 Received: from [68.142.198.105] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2013 02:49:43 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp107.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2013 02:49:43 -0000 s=s1024; t=1362278983; bh=DZ5Z2bOkol2TJzNTocWzAYNjUFPRkEjEpP7ThnDpvCs=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=0DK/CUdZca8Lp/f/SnViS4pXTIrgCKjOstITqmqL31LXyYGX8dkavduo2yzVvyrZjQ617Q4OWi0nvE+MevEXymxN51kM0xRmHPLrBs9GDEcCJ3wFrP5YZ2INJYFM6YWk+DekoDJP39QKWKv9/59iqGZj4GBAYUxG51hMPhWQc7M= V9WbD1.SgZVQcMqSqIo79tvQDDwnIUAnpooT7qzXEkhTgd2maoPkwlLze3C0 5a1R81xKlg3IC5C7n4TEjWoUs8WM45bOlUp6MOAuNDeqTaB_BuKx3d39QIcz YAZzrc_au6YiQTfsBrkIldVvYZZv2jviHKxhxBRnIxb0QQUZ5xBJcEUT46fy F0ZMKHfDtrR.JDjRouq40QjZKmjumk3_aHjV5TAdvhHCLE6ja5VEp.DwZKYf W.HaSb7pvFEeLN0Kz0zfEmEJk9jv8d694Z5zS9W0RzpU.GQX.QBS6YypxPTk vF6b0uUTymlqjcOol.juthSQnKowKI1vCbmuOjmcJbSPZdF.LIkDjrv94GEl yBBrDZeEy8cnIHr6.Cw8_xGXO.MZGo_kMY.fC7zSow4suV0nTVd9Ae4JtGC0 u4X2A4tbmiNkdaHHGhb8EXMuqivJVVGu33B.Ui.0sCICkehYS6hHhrZqaLKY Rc.UNSuTFuDMAz7P6TxnO.CAYIbNs1R3YK68AfJ1q_3sUhEFybTA1jr5eWMy riHn6FIvjRJsexlIrdwzejyalxemSAr3Vtc6ceK9hM80wP.BDnrOskt.j_qP AQUPyIuCioH739BZ0zy2YLIRXuHTVlES9eQjlEXgse6TwNjhin0zo7SOzj5j lJRmAIIOPLjB6K2bVT50ljtyx5j5xfpSV5b7oHTr4dQY4qsOt_TJfSBF3Qwe nAz.tIWQvI2rZC_mKkM_6SpwSDll7DLksPgMoP8v9coiQIWbkzgHx0bS7izV OGFivY3HVx1cF1mYnK0W20VVkimB6iTjsW1Q- Received: from john5043a2d406 (jniolon@108.227.226.77 with login) by smtp107.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 02 Mar 2013 18:49:43 -0800 PST From: "John Niolon" To: , "shop-talk" References: Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:49:16 -0600 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tool Cabinets, UPDATE with a question at the end Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Eric... head over to garagejournal.com and look at this thread..... over 2MILLION views and over 8K posts on every imaginable arrangement for tool box drawers.... http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=466&highlight=show+toolbox there's lots of other arrangement threads behind their search engine.... don't plan anything else that day... and I recommend ERNST socket and wrench holders... and if you want to see mine... it's here http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/tools/NEWTOOLPAGE.HTML later, john ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 7:37 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool Cabinets, UPDATE with a question at the end > OK, so I was in Lowes today returning a carpet stretcher (found almost the > same one at Horrible Freight for half the price.) > > ANYWAY, I got to looking at the tool cabinets. Their 'top of the line' 18 > draw 53" model was right there. $1899, NO WAY. > > So my, always wise, SO (who is doing much better- thanks for the support) > told me to ask the guy if there were any ones with dents in it on > clearance. > > He shows me one about 1/2 the size for about $930. I'm not interested. So > I get to asking him about the big one (you know, the one with the built in > electrical boxes and stereo system) and he asked me what I wanted to pay > for it. > > I told him, as little as possible. He asks me if a 20% discount would be > enough. I tell him only if I can get my Veteran's discount and use my tax > free status on it (I am a farm and all my tools are not taxed.) > > He says, "Sure". > I say, lets load it up. It was about $1360 even. > > So I got this box... >>http://www.lowes.com/pd_351108-55738-TB53SS11_0__?productId=3439322&Ntt=tool+cabinets&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dtool%2Bcabinets&facetInfo=< > > (Note, some of them come with refrigerators and that would be a complete > waste for me. Mine doesn't have it.) > > Now, I'm still in the market for cabinets, but not nearly as urgent. > (thanks for all the links.) > > One last question, is there a 'logical' way to organize a big chest like > this? I mean there are obvious things like most used tools at the > convenent level, but I was wondering if there was any pointers for someone > setting up a new box. BEFORE I add all my stuff and then have to > rearrange it. > > THANKS AGAIN GUYS! > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon@att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Mar 2 20:59:41 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F9D429D9 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:59:41 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm2.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm2.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.203]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCE314298D for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:03:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.195] by nm2.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2013 02:56:09 -0000 Received: from [68.142.198.105] by tm6.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2013 02:56:09 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp107.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2013 02:56:09 -0000 s=s1024; t=1362279369; bh=y617qxvNUJF2jHJCqyRx66OsAPN+M+hBvKt217Mfp6s=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=pxoz8ozkyaOo7qFQgkCGigz4iyMFBWKw3m9ZFyMb+bOl0ZNjuBlYJAkT6brkWQU+0vG7kH5EvCITwV+WxKPTFa/qvOFMK4c6mjAaqwLw/gf89TSH0FGKpUMslNawv8rc4RUB6a6y+SYfT5olBdqFBqbBWVcmFd9TDW0zXVuo6nk= EEHNnZoDNl.U831Bi8xIN0SHfJsTalbJhuAa7O4K.MPq7vwII1MEBlw.kou5 ZkeCJHXJgT3Pd6ZNijm2jKq0LPHItuBlai8YPe7AtQvtfqdUu3n07VaP9AZF cjEYz7eunzbyol4RWXFPSgCzgjNHH0N9drjiOqlGjfBGc0v5jQo3vQf56SZi 4GJ0ygk1tloa_mqT5qC4jTfX3YeORFe7XrR6YpAvFpIptmp12tsn0BKD8eJz O6pGMZBi05ji0VIYMQhKaxEz7AhfI_Eivr1AplXED84ARGMl7rEneN.S69__ HcWHVElVZRBOOA402KASo47xvTa.KJdnniOy50ItbIW3VKesTJ8IrDXw0MYf ZF2FTYoKnX_yMGFpFzhYi3_ArLpYI0GqGoPAO.BHyKnT3lOi9X84gIUYwRAu I.zL4Xv6BeQjti3vfomJZo7EN5XS4RDeotduyw7uSYeJSBNBhoNkQFNTHNOn 1.Of3bte.VycvfKUfT7KjvxkKdJXynvno2cDF.B.YWWhRmRcc1WG85hrYDC4 Ht.tOXu9zhNwhDq6I81a8FJn9mK8pOLEguotH_708t5TqsU9Vg1cRYI7ZaE6 711s1_aPbE1OVvxPOk.APpLpBLO8dri8QkkLAHYaauXAcxJi8wmUruFce.X2 u4bI4o1Zd9fTtSWE4xy1Sd8Jg0HRa4T7I2jnTaX5eHoTFFg47vDPastvbcJx buq0GEYfkCxTLAw9Kj0lDO_AOgxvgBcxVvoX.bHr4ZhkllQsH Received: from john5043a2d406 (jniolon@108.227.226.77 with login) by smtp107.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 02 Mar 2013 18:56:09 -0800 PST From: "John Niolon" To: "shop-talk" Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:55:44 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Tool Cabinets, UPDATE with a question at the end Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > Eric... > > head over to garagejournal.com and look at this thread..... over 2MILLION > views and over 8K posts on every imaginable arrangement for tool box > drawers.... > > http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=466&highlight=show+toolbox > > there's lots of other arrangement threads behind their search engine.... > don't plan anything else that day... > > and I recommend ERNST socket and wrench holders... > and if you want to see mine... it's here > > http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/tools/NEWTOOLPAGE.HTML > > later, john > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 7:37 PM > Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool Cabinets, UPDATE with a question at the end > > >> OK, so I was in Lowes today returning a carpet stretcher (found almost >> the >> same one at Horrible Freight for half the price.) >> >> ANYWAY, I got to looking at the tool cabinets. Their 'top of the line' >> 18 >> draw 53" model was right there. $1899, NO WAY. >> >> So my, always wise, SO (who is doing much better- thanks for the support) >> told me to ask the guy if there were any ones with dents in it on >> clearance. >> >> He shows me one about 1/2 the size for about $930. I'm not interested. >> So >> I get to asking him about the big one (you know, the one with the built >> in >> electrical boxes and stereo system) and he asked me what I wanted to pay >> for it. >> >> I told him, as little as possible. He asks me if a 20% discount would be >> enough. I tell him only if I can get my Veteran's discount and use my >> tax >> free status on it (I am a farm and all my tools are not taxed.) >> >> He says, "Sure". >> I say, lets load it up. It was about $1360 even. >> >> So I got this box... >>>http://www.lowes.com/pd_351108-55738-TB53SS11_0__?productId=3439322&Ntt=tool+cabinets&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dtool%2Bcabinets&facetInfo=< >> >> (Note, some of them come with refrigerators and that would be a complete >> waste for me. Mine doesn't have it.) >> >> Now, I'm still in the market for cabinets, but not nearly as urgent. >> (thanks for all the links.) >> >> One last question, is there a 'logical' way to organize a big chest like >> this? I mean there are obvious things like most used tools at the >> convenent level, but I was wondering if there was any pointers for >> someone >> setting up a new box. BEFORE I add all my stuff and then have to >> rearrange it. >> >> THANKS AGAIN GUYS! >> >> Eric P >> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational >> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph >> Waldo Emerson >> _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Mar 2 21:00:57 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8A5429E7 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 21:00:57 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plsmtpa09-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa09-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.235]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 710504298D for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:19:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from StevePC ([24.113.13.208]) by p3plsmtpa09-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with id 6rBw1l0054VKuxU01rBwwM; Sat, 02 Mar 2013 20:11:56 -0700 From: "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA" To: "Bob Kegel" , "Shop Talk" References: <5ECE883FF9CF42D0A8CEE045AE617165@StevePC> <281E85EA24CD42AA94D444E4DFCD901E@BigBlack> Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 19:11:58 -0800 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Corrosion protection for tools Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thanks Bob, I stopped on my way home today at the local gun shop and picked up a small container. Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA From: Bob Kegel Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 7:45 AM To: Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA ; Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Corrosion protection for tools I've sprayed Boeshield on my vise and some other tools. The film dries to a non-tacky finish with a slight gloss. I haven't used it on anything exposed to the weather, but so far, so good. Bob K Aberdeen, WA ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6132 - Release Date: 02/25/13 _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 3 00:01:50 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C0C429EC for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 00:01:50 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5575429CC for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2013 23:15:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from Steve-PC.optonline.net (ool-457e690f.dyn.optonline.net [69.126.105.15]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPA id <0MJ200512MCT4210@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Sun, 03 Mar 2013 01:07:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 01:07:28 -0500 From: Steven Trovato To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe structure fittings Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Can anyone identify the fittings used in constructing the pipe structure on this trailer? https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KmtsvfHSiNNw2O-Dpe9NjtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink I have found similar things, but the fittings seem smaller and they attach differently. Thanks. If you have trouble with that link, let me know and I'll try something else. -Steve Trovato strovato@optonline.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 3 02:13:27 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157E2424B8 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 02:13:27 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A63D140452 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 01:53:27 -0700 (MST) a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=DHIfweu8Ty4A:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=awpEjkXZd2MA:10 a=1XWaLZrsAAAA:8 a=qnVquFxiAAAA:8 a=6YWXKf1mAAAA:20 a=5edGurhwAAAA:20 a=FM-tmoJu1uvTPPtpAQYA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=zHUhuy2q1pgA:10 a=wEoTrm1WQJoA:10 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55003] helo=randall) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id B8/F0-25887-9CD03315; Sun, 03 Mar 2013 08:46:02 +0000 From: "Randall" To: "'Steven Trovato'" , Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 00:46:01 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac4X2/xj6L6+pqD4QIyfwSCjH8BDyQADswWg Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] pipe structure fittings Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > Can anyone identify the fittings used in constructing the > pipe structure on this trailer? > > https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KmtsvfHSiNNw2O-Dpe9NjtMT > jNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink I can't really tell the scale (they come in various sizes), but these look pretty much the same to me http://www.ysbw.com/Canopy-Fittings-1-Inch-s/7.htm The jokers are those tees in the back with the open hole; which I believe were originally a cross http://goo.gl/yOALy And for some reason the 4th leg was cut off. -- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 3 05:29:24 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0908424C7 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 05:29:24 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtp003.apm-internet.net (smtp003.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.52]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2777D4040C for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 05:13:04 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 84874 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2013 12:05:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.103?) (86.171.3.114) by smtp003.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 2013 12:05:37 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 12:05:35 +0000 From: nick brearley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] pipe structure fittings Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Randall wrote: > The jokers are those tees in the back with the open hole; which I > believe were originally a cross http://goo.gl/yOALy And for some > reason the 4th leg was cut off. -- I suppose it's redundant and you don't want it sticking you in the eye each time you walk past. Useful range of fittings. Substitute grubscrews for the eyebolts and you'd have a nice clean installation. NickBrearley _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 3 06:32:27 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5816424C5 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 06:32:27 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.196]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD67440515 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 06:06:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from Steve-PC.optonline.net (ool-457e690f.dyn.optonline.net [69.126.105.15]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPA id <0MJ3000BJ5EQKSG0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Sun, 03 Mar 2013 07:59:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 07:58:40 -0500 From: Steven Trovato To: Randall , shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <0MJ200513MCT4210@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] pipe structure fittings Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Those sure do look like them. Thank you very much. I noticed those in the back as well. I assumed that it was just a matter of making due with what was on hand. -Steve Trovato strovato@optonline.net At 03:46 AM 3/3/2013, Randall wrote: > > Can anyone identify the fittings used in constructing the > > pipe structure on this trailer? > > > > https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KmtsvfHSiNNw2O-Dpe9NjtMT > > jNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink > > >I can't really tell the scale (they come in various sizes), but these look >pretty much the same to me >http://www.ysbw.com/Canopy-Fittings-1-Inch-s/7.htm > >The jokers are those tees in the back with the open hole; which I believe >were originally a cross >http://goo.gl/yOALy >And for some reason the 4th leg was cut off. > >-- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 3 06:33:38 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3B442836 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 06:33:38 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 336964003E for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 06:10:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from Steve-PC.optonline.net (ool-457e690f.dyn.optonline.net [69.126.105.15]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPA id <0MJ300HH25LEHT30@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net; Sun, 03 Mar 2013 08:03:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 08:01:58 -0500 From: Steven Trovato To: nick brearley , shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net References: <51333C8F.7070604@landform.co.uk> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] pipe structure fittings Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I suppose it depends on how permanent the installation is. Grubscrews would look cleaner, but the eye bolts are probably more convenient if it is going to be erected and removed often. -Steve Trovato strovato@optonline.net At 07:05 AM 3/3/2013, nick brearley wrote: >Randall wrote: >>The jokers are those tees in the back with the open hole; which I >>believe were originally a cross http://goo.gl/yOALy And for some >>reason the 4th leg was cut off. -- > >I suppose it's redundant and you don't want it sticking you in the >eye each time you walk past. > >Useful range of fittings. Substitute grubscrews for the eyebolts and >you'd have a nice clean installation. > >NickBrearley >______________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 3 06:49:37 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D32CB424C5 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 06:49:37 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.198]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D993E40521 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 06:19:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from Steve-PC.optonline.net (ool-457e690f.dyn.optonline.net [69.126.105.15]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPA id <0MJ300MWX5ZL20D0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Sun, 03 Mar 2013 08:11:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 08:11:31 -0500 From: Steven Trovato To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <0MJ200513MCT4210@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] pipe structure fittings Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I think the key was calling them "canopy fittings." My google searches weren't finding the right thing without knowing the correct term. Thanks. -Steve _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 3 06:50:39 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E21D742836 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 06:50:39 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtp004.apm-internet.net (smtp004.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.54]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75D0B4003E for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 06:33:15 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 33082 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2013 13:25:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.103?) (86.171.3.114) by smtp004.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 2013 13:25:48 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 13:25:46 +0000 From: nick brearley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: Steven Trovato References: <51333C8F.7070604@landform.co.uk> <0MJ300HH35LEHT30@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Cc: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] pipe structure fittings Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Steven Trovato wrote: > I suppose it depends on how permanent the installation is. Grubscrews > would look cleaner, but the eye bolts are probably more convenient if > it is going to be erected and removed often. > True. And if you want to secure a canvas eyebolts are the way to go. I was impressed with the length of the legs which should make the structure more rigid than conventional pipe clamps. But in turn the welds had better be strong. Nick Brearley _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 3 17:06:39 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A95940442 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 17:06:39 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A66C40412 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 16:39:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from mark.bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by bradakis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9F3A10B1 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 16:33:42 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 16:33:41 -0700 From: Mark J Bradakis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:18.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/18.0 SeaMonkey/2.15.2 To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] Drain snakes? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I was just at Home Depot and saw they had Ridgid Kwik-Spin drain snakes. Looks like it would be a fair bit easier to use than my current loose, floppy 15 foot snake that I often use for this one troublesome section of kitchen drain. Anyone have any experience with such tools? mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 5 09:07:21 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E332742954 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 09:07:21 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from gateway02.websitewelcome.com (gateway02.websitewelcome.com [69.93.106.20]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21EF42936 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 09:07:11 -0700 (MST) Received: by gateway02.websitewelcome.com (Postfix, from userid 5007) id 25C81887F768E; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 09:59:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from gator52.hostgator.com (gator52.hostgator.com [184.173.194.222]) by gateway02.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B806A887F7499 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 09:59:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from leexray by gator52.hostgator.com with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UCuH8-0008IN-Fe for Shop-talk@autox.team.net; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 09:59:34 -0600 Received: from 184.169.163.153 ([184.169.163.153]) (proxying for 208.23.240.1) (SquirrelMail authenticated user lee@automate-it.com) by www.automate-it.com with HTTP; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 09:59:34 -0600 Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 09:59:34 -0600 From: "Lee Daniels" To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22 with any abuse report /usr/local/cpanel/base/3rdparty/squirrelmail/src/compose.php Subject: [Shop-talk] tail light lens repair Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net While I prefer to replace plastic lenses, etc., the owner of the car I care for thinks that the price of a new rear taillight assembly is not worth the expense. She found a web site that describes a process of using some kind of epoxy to do a repair for small holes in a lens - but the site does not give the name or manufacturer of the "catalyst-activated liquid". See it here: http://goo.gl/ex7Go A search of the online versions of all of my favorite FLAPS did not turn up such a beast, just the "repair tape" material - which I refuse to use. Any ideas about this type of fix-it kit? On a related note, I also detest relying on rear-view cameras to do one's backward navigation, and always turn around and get a full 180-deg-plus view of the target area. SWMBO would have done well to heed my warnings about this rather than catch the corner of her sister's BloatoMobile ... Lee _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 5 09:20:11 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 948D242982 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 09:20:11 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from st11p02mm-asmtp002.mac.com (st11p02mm-asmtpout002.mac.com [17.172.220.237]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFEEA42943 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 09:20:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.0.25] (75-175-70-220.ptld.qwest.net [75.175.70.220]) by st11p02mm-asmtp002.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01(7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Jan 3 2012)) with ESMTPSA id <0MJ7005L23ONAV40@st11p02mm-asmtp002.mac.com> for Shop-talk@autox.team.net; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 16:12:25 +0000 (GMT) engine=2.50.10432:5.9.8327,1.0.431,0.0.0000 definitions=2013-03-05_06:2013-03-05,2013-03-05,1970-01-01 signatures=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1212290000 definitions=main-1303050132 From: Darrell Walker Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 08:12:23 -0800 References: To: Lee Daniels Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] tail light lens repair Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Mar 5, 2013, at 7:59 AM, Lee Daniels wrote: > On a related note, I also detest relying on rear-view cameras to do one's > backward navigation, and always turn around and get a full 180-deg-plus view > of the target area. SWMBO would have done well to heed my warnings about this > rather than catch the corner of her sister's BloatoMobile ... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 5 10:53:37 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DC5242988 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 10:53:37 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com (mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com [209.235.152.148]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B2604040A for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 10:53:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from EricJRussellPC (99-194-27-8.dyn.centurytel.net [99.194.27.8]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id r25HjjW8025425; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 17:45:47 GMT From: "Eric J Russell" To: "Lee Daniels" , References: Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 12:44:40 -0500 a=Ww_dTckuGMIA:10 a=P2oOn6vrs4wA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:17 a=oLbdE008AAAA:8 a=xdmlJVf0AAAA:8 a=zOoktvdPAAAA:8 a=kcDdvM9HAAAA:20 a=nPboMq5-yqz3_0ti19wA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=QCNNVnYvcdMA:10 a=s7wbwcEapakA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:117 reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] tail light lens repair Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Shop talk - faster than google? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=plastic+lens+repair+kit Eric Russell Mebane, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Daniels" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 10:59 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] tail light lens repair > While I prefer to replace plastic lenses, etc., the owner of the car I > care > for thinks that the price of a new rear taillight assembly is not worth > the > expense. She found a web site that describes a process of using some kind > of > epoxy to do a repair for small holes in a lens - but the site does not > give > the name or manufacturer of the "catalyst-activated liquid". See it here: > http://goo.gl/ex7Go > A search of the online versions of all of my favorite FLAPS did not turn > up > such a beast, just the "repair tape" material - which I refuse to use. Any > ideas about this type of fix-it kit? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 5 11:02:42 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24FF429CE for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 11:02:41 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from g2host.com (mailfront3.g2host.com [208.42.184.241]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50AC42967 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 11:00:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from [76.164.52.117] (account arvidj@visi.com HELO HP62011) by mailfront3.g2host.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTPA id 100269861; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 11:52:38 -0600 From: "Arvid Jedlicka" To: "Lee Daniels" , References: Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 11:52:37 -0600 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] tail light lens repair Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Maybe something like this ... http://www.rvupgradestore.com/Plastic-Lens-Repair-Kit-p/38-8453.htm -----Original Message----- From: Lee Daniels Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 9:59 AM To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] tail light lens repair While I prefer to replace plastic lenses, etc., the owner of the car I care for thinks that the price of a new rear taillight assembly is not worth the expense. She found a web site that describes a process of using some kind of epoxy to do a repair for small holes in a lens - but the site does not give the name or manufacturer of the "catalyst-activated liquid". See it here: http://goo.gl/ex7Go A search of the online versions of all of my favorite FLAPS did not turn up such a beast, just the "repair tape" material - which I refuse to use. Any ideas about this type of fix-it kit? On a related note, I also detest relying on rear-view cameras to do one's backward navigation, and always turn around and get a full 180-deg-plus view of the target area. SWMBO would have done well to heed my warnings about this rather than catch the corner of her sister's BloatoMobile ... Lee _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj@visi.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 5 11:33:29 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4D45429CA for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 11:33:29 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ee0-f49.google.com (mail-ee0-f49.google.com [74.125.83.49]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8412B4299D for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 11:29:27 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ee0-f49.google.com with SMTP id d41so4835403eek.8 for ; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 10:21:50 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=pIpzvqdCS3JCA4hf81yvPmwchCEqTmsxdHKKqz8Ma9U=; b=oE9UdqmzvvHvNrDcWNxuYGLCH+PHCIsrwtezo7cve2rjPAP3kRszHQwMywQDkszdsy 2ojzMab0q88rrYAtG/f3sJ6qbHv4WTsLWBVAjDr6/JRuytjv2cOKQ8ggofzmUgpSxLEB CLhQpYLgl16jxAvPGQkwq2DQVpIWX/tNZNgh38H6lyutBM+rVOKYlV+JiLpptsazZgke RP6HPTMa5sYsOkWJWsMHhvdgnZuvMp1YvrFAiVnvBOtb/MOc4oOj0xxOv/P1AapEZZd7 d7jHoW/h8b9l4sr12fT3s5Lqphzpzm2vhREP8YbHDx776Ym6GkzY+nn3boTa3qt4sezO kvSA== u4mr72725782eeo.19.1362507709826; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 10:21:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.160.74 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 10:21:49 -0800 (PST) References: <5133DDD5.4040703@bradakis.com> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 12:21:49 -0600 From: David Scheidt To: Mark J Bradakis , shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Drain snakes? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: > I was just at Home Depot and saw they had Ridgid Kwik-Spin drain snakes. > Looks like it would be a fair bit easier to use than my current loose, > floppy > 15 foot snake that I often use for this one troublesome section of kitchen > drain. Anyone have any experience with such tools? > The ones you crank by hand are not any better than a floppy one, except for storage. They're hard to crank and feed at the same time. Ones that attach to a drill are better, but I don't know what the currently available ones are like. Some of the ones I've seen looked like plastic garbage..... > mjb. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt@gmail.com > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 5 12:19:15 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72C442A20 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 12:19:15 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm15.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm15.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.142]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 013DB429F0 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 12:18:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.44.97] by nm15.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2013 19:11:20 -0000 Received: from [67.195.22.113] by tm2.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2013 19:11:20 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp115.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2013 19:11:20 -0000 HGRnoMaH.0VvPJcDnRAuOIHGQ.cOz.oLvsJ9zIlAFpi8b1HNaX9Xpcjwu2Q_ zsm6.myPAh7o4t.dgStobqRwQqwXx.iheVq01Wa1LkvYweCsU3wrMPPuEXJj LWt_dRqzr56A539Q8NQ2q9GcCE_GsnCcXDa0vunGK.WM3_v.BqkcwVtBD5PY .VeIoY9bL6LsmPPzdfGSwDDCkyoLBvbKlKJefWV6zNegQWHQxB_WCK7XVLv0 eRFYEjV8.M0rqK0N.cL7COIcopfvPvQnxizXOeFbKDiL1heR74271ww0NyFt t_WGZSX4F9eiYvBQLKadTb8RhkqErxUEjgJMYWrnLM8qooq2Pbgz8SBHNdxf hSuI1KuNaWWU7Jpg992GcU7ZnFd69E0YvA1NNcs5b.s347LtY0GWfl2Z9JUr NnfIROxJQz5KfHXFQLEwfqs59Zf_uCG2fz3rSJ1glEbrdTB3a Received: from KarlIntel (KVacek@24.14.131.73 with login) by smtp115.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 05 Mar 2013 11:11:20 -0800 PST From: "Karl Vacek" To: "'shop-talk'" References: <5133DDD5.4040703@bradakis.com> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 13:11:28 -0600 Thread-Index: AQH44yLkIzavVD3Fr1A9iNNMjq2I2QGDxgXymDXDYdA= Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Drain snakes? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I bought a Horrible Freight drill-driven snake for a one-time job at one of our daughters' house. The concept is great, and actually, given that the problems there were minor, the fact that it was a throwaway tool worked out pretty well, The HF snake has almost no temper, and soon was a kinked mess, but it got the job done before it finally broke. Decent steel would have made all the difference in the world. On the bright side I didn't have to clean it when I was done - it went right into the garbage can, mess and all. The concept of a snake in a holder that you drive with a drill is great for a sink or tub drain. You let out as much rod as you can deal with and when that's all in the drain you feed a little more. No long snake whipping around and flinging water (etc.) all over the place. For a 4" toilet or floor drain you'd probably need something serious, though. Karl On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: > I was just at Home Depot and saw they had Ridgid Kwik-Spin drain snakes. > Looks like it would be a fair bit easier to use than my current loose, > floppy > 15 foot snake that I often use for this one troublesome section of > kitchen drain. Anyone have any experience with such tools? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 5 12:21:26 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4591E42A4D for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 12:21:26 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B6BE42A06 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 12:21:19 -0700 (MST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=teleport.com; b=Wx4o8U9Vq2Er6wlIDt7I/Rym9huNMJde5rFqwQBLRmdZHmH3BLz3hr3tlFZE2hEG; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [63.227.215.239] (helo=[192.168.0.183]) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1UCxIq-000531-Am for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 14:13:32 -0500 Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 11:13:29 -0800 From: Richard George User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130215 Thunderbird/17.0.3 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <5133DDD5.4040703@bradakis.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Drain snakes? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I've had fair luck with the ridgid model you can optionally attach to a drill, though because of my house layout I need a longer one for many of the drains, which sucks because they seem to charge like a wounded bull for anything longer - its unfortunate you can't seem to find those old hand cranked 50' snakes with the drum, etc. anymore :-/ Good Luck with your choice, rkg (Richard George) On 3/5/2013 10:21 AM, David Scheidt wrote: > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: >> I was just at Home Depot and saw they had Ridgid Kwik-Spin drain snakes. >> Looks like it would be a fair bit easier to use than my current loose, >> floppy >> 15 foot snake that I often use for this one troublesome section of kitchen >> drain. Anyone have any experience with such tools? >> > The ones you crank by hand are not any better than a floppy one, > except for storage. They're hard to crank and feed at the same time. > Ones that attach to a drill are better, but I don't know what the > currently available ones are like. Some of the ones I've seen looked > like plastic garbage..... > > > > >> mjb. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk@autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 5 12:23:30 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D445242A59 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 12:23:30 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from gateway13.websitewelcome.com (gateway13.websitewelcome.com [67.18.94.12]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 742B242A08 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 12:23:26 -0700 (MST) Received: by gateway13.websitewelcome.com (Postfix, from userid 5007) id E8B3480EC72FA; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 13:15:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from gator52.hostgator.com (gator52.hostgator.com [184.173.194.222]) by gateway13.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D966F80EC72D5 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 13:15:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from leexray by gator52.hostgator.com with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UCxL2-0000am-Uh for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 13:15:48 -0600 Received: from 184.169.163.153 ([184.169.163.153]) (proxying for 208.23.240.1) (SquirrelMail authenticated user lee@automate-it.com) by www.automate-it.com with HTTP; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 13:15:48 -0600 References: <915D147C259D4FA28A6D7BD2B2CCE583@EricJRussellPC> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 13:15:48 -0600 From: "Lee Daniels" To: shop-talk@autox.team.net User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22 with any abuse report /usr/local/cpanel/base/3rdparty/squirrelmail/src/compose.php Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] tail light lens repair Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Ahh, it all depends on how you phrase your search. I used the term "plastic tail light lens repair" and did not get these kits listed!!! THANKS. > Shop talk - faster than google? > > http://lmgtfy.com/?q=plastic+lens+repair+kit > > Eric Russell _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Mar 6 12:23:44 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB5F40437 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:23:44 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0523A403F2 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:23:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([10.127.143.54]) by cdptpa-qmta02.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20130306040508218.CTAS14661@cdptpa-qmta02.mail.rr.com> for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 04:05:08 +0000 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=2uQ--OkIlcoA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=3T6ECSKVEo8A:10 a=WSMV8l1EoK7Bkiib4rIA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=l848fi5KGHsjrVhM:21 a=P05gwkrQNBceLyJv:21 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55052] helo=randall) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id B5/74-25887-5FFB6315; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 04:03:02 +0000 From: "Randall" To: Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 20:03:08 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac4Zzuebt+FB6gVYTeORsErAuLvNyAATIWLw Subject: [Shop-talk] FW: Drain snakes? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > I was just at Home Depot and saw they had Ridgid Kwik-Spin drain snakes. > Looks like it would be a fair bit easier to use than my current loose, > floppy > 15 foot snake that I often use for this one troublesome section of > kitchen drain. Anyone have any experience with such tools? > I have a snake somewhat similar to the Kwik-Spin, but without the fancy trigger. Works pretty good for me. The trick is to have only a few inches of cable exposed between the holder and the drain, so you can get some torque on the cable without it flopping around. Helps the end screw it's way around corners and into obstructions. FWIW though, about 10 years ago I got disgusted with our troublesome section of kitchen drain (still running slow after using the full length of the hand-held unit) and rented a big 100' power rooter from Home Depot. Ran the entire length in (although the end must've surely been sticking out into the main line), had a terrible time pulling it back out. (Fortunately, my daughter's boyfriend at the time is built like a linebacker and was able to pull it back.) The remarkable part is that we have never had a problem with that drain since! Not sure what happened, must've been a partial clog farther out that was helping it clog closer in or something. Whatever it was, I'm sure pleased with the result. I had tried having the pros out before, but they would only go in about 30' and call it good enough. The drain would run clear, but start running slow again within a year. They blamed roots and the garbage disposal; but were never able to pull any roots or garbage out of the drain. Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Mar 6 18:11:19 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89E95427AC for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:11:19 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBDB4425A9 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:11:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by bradakis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09697A1013 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:12:32 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 18:12:32 -0700 From: Mark J Bradakis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:18.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/18.0 SeaMonkey/2.15.2 To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] By the way Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net http://www.team.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=141 mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Mar 6 20:18:52 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9474242819 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 20:18:52 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mania.lunarmania.com (mania.lunarmania.com [67.210.98.240]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83DC1427E3 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 20:18:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from 99-7-68-55.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net ([99.7.68.55]:57943 helo=[192.168.1.101]) by mania.lunarmania.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UDRLM-0006UY-3t for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:18:08 -0800 From: Bob Nogueira Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 21:17:52 -0600 To: Shop Talk with any abuse report bob@texmog.com Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 stroke vs 4 stroke Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tonight I was curled up with the Internet looking at lawn edgers trying to choose one to buy. Based on my good experience with an Echo trimmer and Poulan chainsaw I found myself limiting my search to only 2 stroke engines. This is countered by my experience with a Ryobi 4 stroke trimmer that was nothing but trouble. This got me to thinking back as a kid as to how two stroke engines were used primarily in outboards, cheap lawn mowers and chain saws, all of which had horrible reputations for not starting. (model air plane engines don't count since the fuel is premixed) So to my question, have two stroke engines improved that much over the years or did I just grow up in a town in which no one knew how to properly mix oil and gas but two stroke owners sure knew how to swear? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Mar 6 20:42:41 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C96F427E5 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 20:42:41 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-oa0-f45.google.com (mail-oa0-f45.google.com [209.85.219.45]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C016D427E3 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 20:42:28 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-oa0-f45.google.com with SMTP id o6so29654oag.18 for ; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:41:52 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=d2LG93A9Vxe7iVYn6P+9dnR2NYUqjVn1Jv97B8y18wQ=; b=g5oz9J2EaHrhQinjsLG/pOvJV5Xplc6fDSq1iEZKd003xnCd8Cq9P6DUgJHDMQOK7d wZCLgo+SJP8oYCforHmdJ2l2S9/1XD9tPluW6AeefdBAt7NRWbKVJMQSc4K0RmqhjVOu lcl0C0XcvA0BSsBaJScJdWbAHQCZyF2lOd7SvmKzqWE5kXrI7Y/TGd2xR14URQztkHaP QK/im7AszHhFIUi9IqL7/VGHyc964Dcn5ALLuofckYlWJkX0wG2W1JpiCVpbIrytW4ue WkPFetFlL31hGlTOTc7nmoGSZNt/+AEES4mkJwcKC4bYYxQZ2smDYEGlXL57M10X0H28 ky1A== s5mr25040842oeb.100.1362627712556; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:41:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.45.65 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 19:41:52 -0800 (PST) References: Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 22:41:52 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: Bob Nogueira Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 2 stroke vs 4 stroke Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have a cheapo 10-year-old Murray lawn mower with a 4-stroke B&S engine, that has never failed to start on the first pull, even after months of storage. I also have a 2-stroke Ryobi trimmer that is always a pain to start. I suspect that any engine that is designed to operate in a fixed position with gravity fuel feed (e.g. lawn mower) will be easier to start that an engine that has to run when moved around (e.g. chainsaw), because of the carb design. Doug On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Bob Nogueira wrote: > Tonight I was curled up with the Internet looking at lawn edgers trying to > choose one to buy. > Based on my good experience with an Echo trimmer and Poulan chainsaw I > found > myself limiting my search to only 2 stroke engines. This is countered by > my > experience with a Ryobi 4 stroke trimmer that was nothing but trouble. > > This got me to thinking back as a kid as to how two stroke engines were > used > primarily in outboards, cheap lawn mowers and chain saws, all of which had > horrible reputations for not starting. (model air plane engines don't > count > since the fuel is premixed) > > So to my question, have two stroke engines improved that much over the > years > or did I just grow up in a town in which no one knew how to properly mix > oil > and gas but two stroke owners sure knew how to swear? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Mar 6 20:58:30 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6DF942A3E for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 20:58:30 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm14-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm14-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.15]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9FD4259F for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 20:58:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.194] by nm14.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 03:57:42 -0000 Received: from [68.142.198.206] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 03:57:42 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp110.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 03:57:42 -0000 _16qfKkVzPqUF3u40BhNAs3mjeSnxS2xvRoH7xFQtJ.WOXOA.drtTFgAg5.N fY1AQEkYKlqktkM1OF1MNw8naSQHZtf0l4X0RAHoYZVKj.gkqIo8pt40Oqqv ppEFemCfcL5wvndDvQcTJtKlYS0v6OitkaUTkU1.5tFECPYiQ0I7PEMJ_QIn 6d97EmGPGxf_98QnYJ6jUFbqUXEDiUr3Uj.AUhq2QyVQB3PUa1OFA3T5EkIJ yKPn_Cp.kz2MLAv2OByT0wdKV3BGdiQ3JhNA.cgFoW1Ef.QeWwYE3uUbiXnO hqAnOM9aozPeg5w47qIe46vevB81Y7FAjHi_iAfWAkskUtDMGpKgVUSqYOpz xb60ImTO8N6lfAs9lrGRSd67tes_zP3636qVyQpmwqvJJ2A20Se43tNXDvLg u7rYG6hgyzGulbdAXRUmqQsLFJFNmgw-- Received: from KarlIntel (KVacek@24.14.131.73 with login) by smtp110.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 06 Mar 2013 19:57:42 -0800 PST From: "Karl Vacek" To: "'Bob Nogueira'" , "'Shop Talk'" References: Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 21:57:52 -0600 Thread-Index: AQKsw5v+NDeA8IVGlrM8WM7qjD0K95bcRQCQ Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 2 stroke vs 4 stroke Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net If you consider Echo, check the fine print in the instructions and see if it requires 89-octane gasoline. Bizarre requirement, but necessary for their warrantee, at least a few years ago. My 1970 Echo blower still runs fine on anything, but my 2005 blower/vac/bagger died from the wrong gas before I even knew of the requirement. And like others have said, current 2-cycles can be a pain to start, not to mention the stink. 4-cycles seem to fare better, though old gas is still an issue for me. Sta-Bil doesn't seem to help that. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Bob Nogueira Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 stroke vs 4 stroke Tonight I was curled up with the Internet looking at lawn edgers trying to choose one to buy. Based on my good experience with an Echo trimmer and Poulan chainsaw I found myself limiting my search to only 2 stroke engines. This is countered by my experience with a Ryobi 4 stroke trimmer that was nothing but trouble. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 7 01:19:00 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294AC403D4 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 01:19:00 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (lan23.xxiii.com [24.246.172.99]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF534403A0 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 01:18:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (host-173-246-195-102.morrisbb.com [173.246.195.102] (may be forged)) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r278I1eC020699 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 03:18:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 03:17:53 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130215 Thunderbird/17.0.3 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 2 stroke vs 4 stroke Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 3/6/2013 10:17 PM, Bob Nogueira wrote: > This got me to thinking back as a kid as to how two stroke engines were used > primarily in outboards, cheap lawn mowers and chain saws, all of which had > horrible reputations for not starting. (model air plane engines don't count > since the fuel is premixed) > > So to my question, have two stroke engines improved that much over the years > or did I just grow up in a town in which no one knew how to properly mix oil > and gas but two stroke owners sure knew how to swear? I have a 2 stroke Ryobi trimmer, Echo chain saw, 70cc small Yamaha bike, and formerly an MTD snow blower. With basic maintenance and good fuel mix, and some RTFM they all start & run great. The small ones are rather picky about the starting procedure, esp the Ryobi, but it's right on the label and if followed, they start with no drama. They're lighter, simpler, and make more power for their size than a 4. But as ya' probably know, the torque & power are in a narrower, higher rpm range. Good for something you tend to run WOT. Don't think it would be great in a lawn mower. I buy Yamaha's "Yamalube 2S" for the bike, and use it in the others, too. Supposedly semi-synthetic. It burns a lot cleaner than the usual power equipment-grade oil. -Wayne _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 7 01:24:31 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27601403D5 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 01:24:31 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (lan23.xxiii.com [24.246.172.99]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76FBD403D3 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 01:24:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (host-173-246-195-102.morrisbb.com [173.246.195.102] (may be forged)) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r278NpZ4020723 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 03:23:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 03:23:44 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130215 Thunderbird/17.0.3 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 2 stroke vs 4 stroke Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 3/6/2013 10:41 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > I suspect that any engine that is designed to operate in a fixed position > with gravity fuel feed (e.g. lawn mower) will be easier to start that an > engine that has to run when moved around (e.g. chainsaw), because of the > carb design. 2-S Power Equipment, like saws or trimmers, has a "pumper carb". A little rubber diaphragm & check valve use engine vacuum pulses to suck fuel from the tank and keep the carb constantly full, and pump any excess back to the tank. Roll around things like mowers or bikes appear to use regular gravity fed float bowls. Had to rebuild the carb' on the Ryobi last summer. Was surprisingly easy! (and I usually trash any carb I touch) $7 kit, clean it up, dial two screws and runnin' like new :) -Wayne _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 7 08:21:36 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 859B040445 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:21:36 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from blu0-omc2-s29.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc2-s29.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.104]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87E6440435 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:21:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from BLU176-DS22 ([65.55.111.72]) by blu0-omc2-s29.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 7 Mar 2013 07:20:50 -0800 From: "Glenn Owen" To: Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:20:48 -0500 FILETIME=[59E179A0:01CE1B47] Subject: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have a circa 1964 house - baths have ceramic tile walls set on a mortar bed with metal lath. I want to remove all the old tile along with the mortar bed and lath down to the naked studs to make way for removing the (pink) tub and prepping for a new shower install. I understand this is a dusty and not so easy task. I can handle the dust, but does any one have experience/recommendations on tools and techniques to use for such a demo job. Youtube did not provide much help that I could find. Any help is much appreciated. Glenn _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 7 08:29:35 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD9240523 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:29:35 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vc0-f172.google.com (mail-vc0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7C340436 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:28:11 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id l6so327127vcl.31 for ; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 07:27:35 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7pJLVv0w9+qcP3lsbhU0fu37GjGS8yaP8qTsdOxyha4=; b=kGg6kVyoG2TDkt/mwAb0gILlJUUd9qxqeioxImGDGvLjAuw3MmerrllBphMGZxat5d Fh8RpzFICjS527Fy/crQo0XEcmQ9RJhtDNqmK3Cwtks5US+XGrFIqEdM6TW1aUDMq2hK iRFYLi8GoDsbbLbh0bdaMupKwDqb5EPVOntuabtI4azN2esc97On7wwfzW0acbZybB1z DzW9N9QVUqNXL982XPMEe+A45k/hwC3k4QAXUIJ99cWNR5csE7weMjGiBQaK1oz6N3ip veFKmgDc7muh1qEdyUTI5B/qDT5a1JBhMv6SZlEIRu3KjhKEdstWJptMeeCYRaDO0lAc 5Acw== w3mr13000891vcv.37.1362670055443; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 07:27:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q5sm339491vdj.5.2013.03.07.07.27.34 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Mar 2013 07:27:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 10:27:30 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130215 Thunderbird/17.0.3 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mine wasn't tile over mortar and lath, so I don't know if it's worse or not. I just opened a window and put a fan it it, and wore a mask. I'm about to do it again, so I'll pay more attention this time to see how bad it really is. A 5-pound sledge was my go-to tool. Just have at it. On 3/7/2013 10:20 AM, Glenn Owen wrote: > I have a circa 1964 house - baths have ceramic tile walls set on a mortar bed > with metal lath. I want to remove all the old tile along with the mortar bed > and lath down to the naked studs to make way for removing the (pink) tub and > prepping for a new shower install. I understand this is a dusty and not so > easy task. I can handle the dust, but does any one have > experience/recommendations on tools and techniques to use for such a demo job. > Youtube did not provide much help that I could find. > Any help is much appreciated. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 7 08:30:23 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD414043C for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:30:23 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.48]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9704740436 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:30:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta17.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.89]) by qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 8cj21l00E1vXlb855fVj6n; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 15:29:43 +0000 Received: from sz0180.wc.mail.comcast.net ([68.87.26.137]) by omta17.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 8fVj1l00K2xV5no3dfVjmJ; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 15:29:43 +0000 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 15:29:43 +0000 (UTC) From: Tom & Marge FitzGibbon To: Glenn Owen s=q20121106; t=1362670183; bh=x92CcLZk/3atTKYNTzxaI5uQTpUanbaFJz+fqr6Z2RU=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=N9TN6igiWsncvWv6bBK8pc/ZIlJb4ai4eNI4tF55lHPVHT0nW1gOBxd8y4240YTd5 ek1bDRAgcTn5x77nfS33c34+K3FsZ7bnpTy9k/3bKdbO26KkpLVYpOnf/ZXpaKC7C7 kKEVMETNS1zzq/tk1rgGNSF58C58MAfAyWUH9ixEyIA/tRHUn7EzeZx0/q04Y1doZd flMF4QVy/9qU3zAvimKVYUjBCy0nNi3x7xyuUS5n3/cSVhbeZNp5+VL6k4+M0exw/v n+L30vWM+7XPmUoSBfYLmkWkPzWzawa42B4VFUFqIzt9DWuk/69uit5jFxT4fnA7SY pM+YOVTtzgKcA== Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I used a large sledgehammer, a small sledgehammer, a flat bar and a good crow bar. Eye protection and a GOOD dust mask are critical. Make sure you seal off the bathroom door opening really well as otherwise you will have dust everywhere. Keep in mind that the mortar may have some nasty stuff in it from that time, so you really do not want dust from it in your living space. I found once you punch through the face and get into a stud cavity you can use the flat bar or crow bar to take off large areas of tile and mortar easily. Good luck. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Owen" To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2013 10:20:48 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal I have a circa 1964 house - baths have ceramic tile walls set on a mortar bed with metal lath. I want to remove all the old tile along with the mortar bed and lath down to the naked studs to make way for removing the (pink) tub and prepping for a new shower install. I understand this is a dusty and not so easy task. I can handle the dust, but does any one have experience/recommendations on tools and techniques to use for such a demo job. Youtube did not provide much help that I could find. Any help is much appreciated. Glenn _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 7 08:40:52 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B3840513 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:40:52 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from snt0-omc2-s17.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc2-s17.snt0.hotmail.com [65.55.90.92]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6DBE40435 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:40:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from SNT002-W49 ([65.55.90.71]) by snt0-omc2-s17.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 7 Mar 2013 07:40:10 -0800 From: PJ McGarvey To: Glenn Owen , Shop Talk Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:40:10 -0500 References: FILETIME=[0D6AB570:01CE1B4A] Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Did this a few years back, though I needed to protect the tub, which was the hardest part of the demolition... which you don't need to worry about. I didn't have one then, but I have a oscillating multi tool now that comes with a grout removal bit. A sawzall will probably make more dust and possibly do more damage from vibration to surrounding structure... if that matters.. same with a hammer or sledge. Another idea might be an air hammer which is an underrated tool in my opinion that I often forget about :-) My recollection is that once I had way to get behind the tile/backer/lath/etc that I could peel it off easily with my hands into chunks that would fit into a trash bag. Again, less dust/noise/damage this way. -PJ > From: mgowen55@hotmail.com > To: shop-talk@autox.team.net > Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:20:48 -0500 > Subject: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal > > I have a circa 1964 house - baths have ceramic tile walls set on a mortar bed > with metal lath. I want to remove all the old tile along with the mortar bed > and lath down to the naked studs to make way for removing the (pink) tub and > prepping for a new shower install. I understand this is a dusty and not so > easy task. I can handle the dust, but does any one have > experience/recommendations on tools and techniques to use for such a demo job. > Youtube did not provide much help that I could find. > Any help is much appreciated. > > Glenn _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 7 09:15:08 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B54240450 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 09:15:08 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm2.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm2.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.203]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B02040337 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 09:13:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.199] by nm2.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 16:12:42 -0000 Received: from [68.142.198.204] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 16:12:42 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp105.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 16:12:42 -0000 nqWR1zifjgWbRpqX9Fgolou5o5iyFJLygFxYUQGqQzCkR2GcxiaTiCKZnoqA QUQBoI3ws6hyPUwQFnjf21zKun5uwYa9qQw.4ytHIzJG3sA3_uXAVaWaEGpI B3rKNJeRkHPPUk6vSFm70hnwTjq9W1uUa2ZzKsHGklqXf2O_09iv4PPtdSV_ JQnsZJ3eipHB3jMLbKOUpgFVfrwOq9RFIP00ykCaEF9lBmjztbE7GWJUd7ba hSazKIrTBpgte57urLbEeZxCgAWpHlBkeJ1.W8F7MOU0zXxMrTE.9KaCFXO7 ehA4FKIn5C.mjHXkhHP3lhK5dGbOOhEneRmxLJyrrCvKDwXUK_AXiIxyJPXL 07mxCX9rdAVjKv1_ZZuZlmUJQ3C.yOqxCDVxjYMaP_dyE5WDvRp99KWlhdUx r_6u8_PX1_dT58AnnrHZMIxl1UPCMig-- Received: from KarlIntel (KVacek@24.14.131.73 with login) by smtp105.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 07 Mar 2013 08:12:42 -0800 PST From: "Karl Vacek" To: References: <000c01ce149c$19504df0$4bf0e9d0$@Ameritech.net> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:12:46 -0600 Thread-Index: AQIRtWMBmoipAX1BdQqkx2gTG3W57pgTIncQ Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Which diodes for a battery charger? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I bought the stud-mount diodes Randall suggested from Surplus Electronics. They arrived yesterday and I put them in. But the outputs were pretty much the same as before I changed the diodes. Max DC out in "Charge" was only around 11 volts, with 4 to 6 volts AC, which I took as indicating a bad diode as before. After stewing all night and checking this and that, I finally had a fortuitous stroke of near-average intelligence, attached it to a battery, and checked again. D'oh - it's fine. Are open-circuit voltages in battery chargers always misleading? I didn't expect the transformer output to go up with a load. Doorbell and toy train transformers don't seem to do that. Anyway, it's working again - thanks to all! Karl -----Original Message----- From: Randall here's some that should be good enough. 60 amps continuous, over 1000 amps peak. $3 each. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 7 09:28:40 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E92640337 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 09:28:40 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4E24006F for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 09:28:22 -0700 (MST) a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=1r37JsgrqVcA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=aElIn3Dle9wA:10 a=YQjB28HSgz54BXaEhBsA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55002] helo=randall) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 76/C6-25887-100C8315; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 16:27:46 +0000 From: "Randall" To: "'Karl Vacek'" , Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:27:55 -0800 Thread-Index: AQIRtWMBmoipAX1BdQqkx2gTG3W57pgTIncQgAAS8QA= Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Which diodes for a battery charger? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Think of the output of the transformer as a sine wave. It goes smoothly from peak to peak, but spends very little time at each peak. Diodes only conduct when the anode is more positive than the cathode. So in a battery charger, the diodes only conduct (to produce output) when the voltage is near the peak, higher than the battery voltage. The rest of the time, you are reading battery voltage. Without the battery, the average voltage is much lower. -- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 7 11:23:25 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11E174051A for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 11:23:25 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm19.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm19.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.220]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E68AB40324 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 11:23:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.199] by nm19.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 18:22:40 -0000 Received: from [98.139.244.49] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 18:22:40 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp111.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 18:22:40 -0000 WwunGTWojTEJak0Gcu7H6jLZSs42.mvRXVykT._dU.S_f4P1M8rFMvccetTI J.WpfmeYc1cOPEcJfU3wAPgy1jI6n4j7p.LJDgRbG8xPmNDI3KgSmg89C3P7 BHa9MCcWfy9rE2i_q6Xs1MAVKAiptRRFTw9Up5jbTStj4tsFZkAi.RZLwtnm r87hXsn32cF9X.DNk3Bfx3HWDP7Rip58xtt6dl9bzTkgH184HChMlc3RaozP KsFOovvLIM6StkauQnAXVZ1zmyMjq1iJlDH0myTV31S3pvj_NdNpIQ7lXp_f wUo9uqfmTgRBV6la2zOWp4x7SqR8LZjH597zefzvX935akhw1xuF7zNIXtKu uBfTF735E29HPPue52jK_J6pWwE0HuLTY4vEswWPlY3BKXMdiDrvzrxCiOyk utZuVaIh8lnBzAlRt.cZIFDMYOnAKQGE- Received: from KarlIntel (KVacek@24.14.131.73 with login) by smtp111.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 07 Mar 2013 10:22:40 -0800 PST From: "Karl Vacek" To: "'Randall'" , References: <003501ce1b4e$9b67e740$d237b5c0$@Ameritech.net> <76.C6.25887.100C8315@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 12:22:44 -0600 Thread-Index: AQF0e+TVwJWKzUIMgMfNoQ4ZL3YQGplNyHAg Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Which diodes for a battery charger? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net So if I measured min/max rather than just the default voltage (rms on my Fluke), I should see something like the 15 volts it's currently showing, while charging a very dead battery ? Also - I'm still seeing a little under half a volt AC at the battery. Normal? Karl -----Original Message----- From: Randall Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] Which diodes for a battery charger? Think of the output of the transformer as a sine wave. It goes smoothly from peak to peak, but spends very little time at each peak. Diodes only conduct when the anode is more positive than the cathode. So in a battery charger, the diodes only conduct (to produce output) when the voltage is near the peak, higher than the battery voltage. The rest of the time, you are reading battery voltage. Without the battery, the average voltage is much lower. -- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 7 13:00:45 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88CA40524 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 13:00:45 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta11.charter.net (unknown [216.33.127.80]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4992B40338 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 12:57:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp10 ([10.20.200.15]) by mta11.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.09 201-2260-151-124-20120717) with ESMTP id <20130307195635.UBGQ6169.mta11.charter.net@imp10>; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 14:56:35 -0500 Received: from wt07 ([209.225.8.57]) by imp10 with smtp.charter.net id 8jwb1l0081Dq0wp05jwbXk; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 14:56:35 -0500 a=NrW5UhCsb7nn2utAaUfzJA==:17 a=SPAKA3mDuA0A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=bZptsQO7xvAA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=8VNpStcg9VkA:10 a=zOoktvdPAAAA:8 a=SPjuACb4CnOxRqTrSpAA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=J0aUVQLP0FIA:10 a=m3MdUl94G8cA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=BcwT0Smst7MCtTIIGOhIgQ==:117 Received: from [165.189.65.12] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 14:56:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 14:56:35 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Glenn Owen User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Above anything else I'd recommend a HEPA filtered respirator mask just to make sure you don't inhale anything potentially toxic. tim On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Glenn Owen wrote: > I have a circa 1964 house - baths have ceramic tile walls set on a > mortar bed > with metal lath. I want to remove all the old tile along with the > mortar bed > and lath down to the naked studs to make way for removing the (pink) > tub and > prepping for a new shower install. I understand this is a dusty and > not so > easy task. I can handle the dust, but does any one have > experience/recommendations on tools and techniques to use for such a > demo job. > Youtube did not provide much help that I could find. > Any help is much appreciated. > > Glenn > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland@charter.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 7 17:00:51 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64F3F40357 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 17:00:51 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm9.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm9.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.210]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46AAC4032A for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 17:00:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.126] by nm9.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 23:59:56 -0000 Received: from [98.139.221.48] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 23:59:56 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp101.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2013 23:59:56 -0000 s=s1024; t=1362700796; bh=+lW08nzIEEuf7Bw6q428rz5MX5Drjmga6UahlRdxowM=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:X-MimeOLE; b=oAMTjAZ/dmsab23/WVSnf7ntT/m3fFqPwOKoE63kjVVW+9gwqMi++A1F38nQyTErSmz5UntHZJ2CmvuxywascYlgbZiRSwEn+P6mLn4ha5VQ2tqw2zS4bvSa1IZCO9iVEHwfczaVBWwIRBh+k6xhY6Yhkc9Uotxggfo15DZkNoU= I3Hyj.EivWVmm3tSnKoo7bOs3OraOAxZqPSVczne3veulKqcQXJFbf.O0qnp XPM09aTW.DmI0wSR6.7hp1FDJkQrcDzlkbETdy2Vt8YZa2WCNx3uBZkvVc.7 1yAjrR2Tkbbm8e5vW7rAHgFatOwL6tVtHzzoy2.ZRNpvJ6H8PlL5hBjo3Ff3 fnwABXoq1dwYzjPXEOdOMlkVtAOcjgNPpbncwnAxHtA_TJ0EYrWg1Jms7Ztf xnMNCFSsCinoz..g98bXusvby9VlffFmGAPFasWACYaedcX7LmFKHhju1L7i mO.mKNYu7ql46I.fjBmqr0uYJ4ekdEtteS6dEGTqm5B3ypAGhUvliN0zcJ5L enjVulIgsq3sV8e5cTAUDOjtllZcBu7jSdlIuDs_d31Iu_uhKqVbxN8E0V09 Qtg6HuhBiZFvoFVLx Received: from AcerNetbook (jibjib@74.186.185.24 with login) by smtp101.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 07 Mar 2013 15:59:56 -0800 PST From: "Jack Brooks" To: References: <000c01ce149c$19504df0$4bf0e9d0$@Ameritech.net> <003501ce1b4e$9b67e740$d237b5c0$@Ameritech.net> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 15:59:57 -0800 Thread-Index: AQIRtWMBmoipAX1BdQqkx2gTG3W57pgTIncQgACRRTA= Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Which diodes for a battery charger? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net >After stewing all night and checking this and that, I finally had a >fortuitous stroke of near-average intelligence, attached it to a battery, >and checked again. D'oh - it's fine. >Are open-circuit voltages in battery chargers >always misleading? I didn't expect the transformer >output to go up with a load. Doorbell and toy train >transformers don't seem to do that. Karl, I did the same thing with a furnace motor I used to build a rotary tumbler. It would only spin at 600 RPM without a load. Once I put the fan back on, it went right up to 1,170, the right speed for the winding I selected Jack. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 7 21:08:10 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0309F4038C for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 21:08:10 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.63]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73E1440334 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 21:07:59 -0700 (MST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ttbHfnnmMHHr1/tcQyTFLqeP3NT0l0UXvcFqkzA6PJ9SDPSVHAPfxuVqR7Iu3uqs; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.129.25.88] (helo=[192.168.1.3]) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1UDoaW-0002oe-GT; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 23:07:20 -0500 Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 20:06:35 -0800 From: Brian Kemp User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130215 Thunderbird/17.0.3 To: Glenn Owen References: Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Glenn - Most importantly, you need to keep the dust out of your lungs and the rest of the house. I recommend a respirator that you can pick up for under $30 at lots of places. Also, seal the door with plastic or put a fan in the window sucking out to keep the dust out of the house. Also add eye protection and hearing protection if using power tools. If you have plaster walls on the other side of the tile that you don't want to disturb, I'd use caution with a big sledge hammer. Someone else mentioned a grout blade in an oscillating cutter. While they do work well and are easy to control, for demo, I recommend a diamond blade in an angle grinder because it is much faster. Wear gloves. Do a vertical cut down the center of the stud bays following a grout line. If the tile goes to the ceiling, consider a horizontal cut near the top so you don't mess up the ceiling too much. You can then push in and pry out to pop of the tile in 16" wide segments. Brian On 3/7/2013 7:20 AM, Glenn Owen wrote: > I have a circa 1964 house - baths have ceramic tile walls set on a mortar bed > with metal lath. I want to remove all the old tile along with the mortar bed > and lath down to the naked studs to make way for removing the (pink) tub and > prepping for a new shower install. I understand this is a dusty and not so > easy task. I can handle the dust, but does any one have > experience/recommendations on tools and techniques to use for such a demo job. > Youtube did not provide much help that I could find. > Any help is much appreciated. > > Glenn > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 7 22:21:33 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A11B2403A0 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 22:21:33 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A096E40358 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2013 22:21:22 -0700 (MST) a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=1r37JsgrqVcA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=aElIn3Dle9wA:10 a=ariKT5l1AAAA:20 a=d7myY84fAAAA:20 a=GdWWX-WTFl9cYNxp9usA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=4yiaawU3WlEA:10 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55013] helo=randall) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id C6/87-11869-A2579315; Fri, 08 Mar 2013 05:20:43 +0000 From: "Randall" To: "'Karl Vacek'" , Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 21:20:52 -0800 Thread-Index: AQF0e+TVwJWKzUIMgMfNoQ4ZL3YQGplNyHAggAC1wjA= Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Which diodes for a battery charger? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > So if I measured min/max rather than just the default voltage > (rms on my Fluke), I should see something like the 15 volts > it's currently showing, while charging a very dead battery ? Yup. Open circuit (without the battery), min would be zero, max probably closer to 18 volts. > Also - I'm still seeing a little under half a volt AC at the battery. > Normal? Yup again. Remember the charger is only putting out pulses of charging current at the peak of each 120 Hz half wave. Those pulses are higher voltage than your battery, so the voltage drops off between pulses. On the AC setting, your voltmeter is seeing the pulses as AC. Although not strictly correct, the diagram and waveforms shown here: http://goo.gl/iwukv under "A Single Capacitor" are pretty close to what is happening, with your battery playing the part of the capacitor shown in that circuit. -- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 11 19:39:58 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD80A4055D for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:39:58 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from gateway04.websitewelcome.com (gateway04.websitewelcome.com [67.18.14.8]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6A814052C for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:39:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: by gateway04.websitewelcome.com (Postfix, from userid 5007) id 9819299FD12E9; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 20:38:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gator52.hostgator.com (gator52.hostgator.com [184.173.194.222]) by gateway04.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD6C99FD12C5 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 20:38:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from leexray by gator52.hostgator.com with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UFEAy-0004lK-DW for Shop-talk@autox.team.net; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 20:38:48 -0500 Received: from 99.101.202.162 ([99.101.202.162]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user lee@automate-it.com) by www.automate-it.com with HTTP; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 20:38:48 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 20:38:48 -0500 From: "Lee Daniels" To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22 with any abuse report /usr/local/cpanel/base/3rdparty/squirrelmail/src/compose.php Subject: [Shop-talk] "Rebuild kit" for Milwaukee 18V battery Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Recalling discussions here on replacing the actual NiCd cells in a cordless tool battery, I came across a "rebuild kit" for my Milwaukee 18V battery. See here: http://amzn.com/B008NETIIU At $43.50 this is a lot better price than I could get on a replacement battery - even the off-brand replacements. The reviews are very good for this item; I'll try to remember to "review" it here once I've received it and tried it out. - Lee _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 11 19:46:28 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE3140E5B for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:46:28 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C8240074 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:46:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by bradakis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 305A6A1429 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:47:27 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:47:26 -0600 From: Mark J Bradakis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:19.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/19.0 SeaMonkey/2.16 To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] "Rebuild kit" for Milwaukee 18V battery Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Interesting. I have a few dead Craftsman 19.2 V packs that would be nice to save. I'll have to poke around. mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 11 19:47:51 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 615CD4054F for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:47:51 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-gg0-f176.google.com (mail-gg0-f176.google.com [209.85.161.176]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F62403EB for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:47:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-gg0-f176.google.com with SMTP id q6so728344ggc.7 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 18:46:48 -0700 (PDT) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ej+cVVWn6ScMpHkPmfat90fnOY6icpUm3klkDSLliPI=; b=LV9asqAQ/sfPJ4gCQ3t/rcKUyA1Ew1z39Vhg8hTvNVzP6/CzqpikEbCikZ5otYTubg xOcmcyJBgZAqTN2GTT3taCz9iJuTzZmKFLgh7PLBdJmzD9iCDFSVkuNyO34cqVLme1QR VZEYwYt+EqQDCrO/IvOuLD5Khpj1NKscE5ZJl/Ef4ICTaTmcHKo8xYMnYdtPHOlwPky9 hxjb3yuVwCKVLu9g198OYFOOLwWkb5GUjFoQFlg05yiX1IadtRZpJz39y11bhIQX/yAZ SIS0DiTqBwHhEHnBlT4+sXilOzTKea71udd9irBrCumrsJ1rVAzCUnKrMwJBBiL1Auzx yNJw== t26mr7706080yhj.0.1363052807955; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 18:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s3sm21605589yhm.10.2013.03.11.18.46.46 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Mar 2013 18:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 21:46:43 -0400 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130215 Thunderbird/17.0.3 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] "Rebuild kit" for Milwaukee 18V battery Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Please do. I've got at least six (and maybe eight) Milwaukee 18v packs in the house. So many (and so dead) that I've started to lose track of them. On 3/11/2013 9:38 PM, Lee Daniels wrote: > Recalling discussions here on replacing the actual NiCd cells in a cordless > tool battery, I came across a "rebuild kit" for my Milwaukee 18V battery. See > here: > http://amzn.com/B008NETIIU > At $43.50 this is a lot better price than I could get on a replacement battery > - even the off-brand replacements. The reviews are very good for this item; > I'll try to remember to "review" it here once I've received it and tried it > out. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 12 16:13:42 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3266B4040C for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:13:42 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from st11p02mm-asmtp003.mac.com (st11p02mm-asmtp003.mac.com [17.172.220.238]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8A7740406 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:13:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.25] (75-175-70-220.ptld.qwest.net [75.175.70.220]) by st11p02mm-asmtp003.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01(7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Jan 3 2012)) with ESMTPSA id <0MJK004NXIZBWM20@st11p02mm-asmtp003.mac.com> for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:11:41 +0000 (GMT) engine=2.50.10432:5.10.8626,1.0.431,0.0.0000 definitions=2013-03-12_07:2013-03-12,2013-03-12,1970-01-01 signatures=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1302030000 definitions=main-1303120185 From: Darrell Walker Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:11:35 -0700 To: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net Talk" Subject: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I'm looking at putting a oil pressure gauge in my TR8. I've decided that an electric gauge would be preferable over running a line of hot oil into the passenger compartment. I've located a Jaguar gauge that looks good in the instrument panel (in place of the clock), so now I need a sender. I've identified what I believe is the correct sender, with the following specs: 0 PSI - 250-285 Ohms 10 PSI - 250-275 Ohms 60 PSI - 85-115 Ohms (seems like a lot of overlap at the low end!) Since the sender is around $40, I'd like to verify that it is right for my gauge, plus I would like to verify the gauge actually works. To that end, need a way to setup resistance values in that range. My first thought was a potentiometer, but looking at Radio Shack, they are listed as "5K" and "10K" ohms, but no more details. I assume these would be 0 to 5K ohms? That would make it very sensitive, so I'm not sure that would work well. There is also a 25 ohm rheostat, but that is too low. I could get some discrete resistors, but it would be nice to check that the gauge moves smoothly. I don't think that I need to handle much amperage in this application. So, any other ideas on how to make a cheap test rig for my gauges, preferably using easy to obtain materials? I'm a software guy, not an electronics guy, so I apologize if this is an EE 101 type question! Thanks, Darrell -- Darrell Walker 66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L 81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206 Vancouver, WA, USA _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 12 16:35:32 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 245A34041B for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:35:32 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mailout05.yourhostingaccount.com (mailout05.yourhostingaccount.com [65.254.253.45]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88894040A for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:35:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mailscan11.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.1.15.11] helo=mailscan11.yourhostingaccount.com) by mailout05.yourhostingaccount.com with esmtp (Exim) id 1UFXm2-0004MQ-Oi for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:34:22 -0400 Received: from impout02.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.1.55.2] helo=impout02.yourhostingaccount.com) by mailscan11.yourhostingaccount.com with esmtp (Exim) id 1UFXm2-0006b6-OV; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:34:22 -0400 Received: from webmail13.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.1.16.13]) by impout02.yourhostingaccount.com with NO UCE id AmaN1l0090GubkA01maNP3; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:34:22 -0400 a=GYzHc3mh05v8unprsQ0nVQ==:17 a=Q7zus9ReCAYA:10 a=e8P355KOOTYA:10 a=wg63zuhbB7gA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=yCwGVx20AAAA:8 a=ObD0-6JFAAAA:8 a=BE_wDE1DPcEA:10 a=pjdaNNIBAAAA:8 a=_BHtm1tNmhq_cvCmEucA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=dD7E1ruHsnMA:10 a=5nPN8ZtB+u9sgRkupnaTZQ==:117 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=email.accountsupport.com) by webmail13.yourhostingaccount.com with esmtp (Exim) id 1UFXlh-00028f-NG; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:34:01 -0400 Received: from 69.180.140.196 (SquirrelMail authenticated user greg@gelhar.com) by email.accountsupport.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:34:01 -0400 References: <8817E81B-3617-4109-A9C6-0C046CC6ACB4@mac.com> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:34:01 -0400 From: greg@gelhar.com To: "Darrell Walker" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.19 Cc: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net Talk" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I thought a 300 ohm potentiometer would work but find that a 500 ohm model is much cheaper. http://www.ebay.com/itm/500-OHM-Linear-Taper-Rotary-Potentiometer-B500-Pot-/280672832335?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4159678b4f > So, any other ideas on how to make a cheap test rig for my gauges, > preferably > using easy to obtain materials? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 12 16:44:15 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D26034040F for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:44:15 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4B64040A for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:44:09 -0600 (MDT) Authentication-Results: cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com smtp.user=tr3driver@ca.rr.com; auth=pass (LOGIN) a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=BE_wDE1DPcEA:10 a=tX985aOnAAAA:8 a=q_U9JDg2GQ3nu-zzrGwA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Bc9c7qoAuKlRg6BgnzgyhA==:117 Received: from [10.127.132.92] ([10.127.132.92:50958] helo=cdptpa-web01-z01) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTPA id CB/33-06772-A7FAF315; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:43:06 +0000 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:43:06 +0000 From: Randall To: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net Talk" , Darrell Walker Sensitivity: Normal Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Radio Shack unfortunately doesn't carry much in the way of components any more. You're lucky if they get even close to what you want. But in this case, I think that http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062307 will do well enough. You won't be using its full range, but since it is 15 turns from 0 to 1K, you'll still get about 3 turns between 85 ohms and 285 ohms. Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 12 18:44:03 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CBBC40421 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:44:03 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E158D40411 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:43:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.19]) by qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id AdNq1l0070QkzPwA1oisvN; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 00:42:52 +0000 Received: from Dell2010Watson ([76.123.22.88]) by omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Aoiq1l00E1u1yzQ8NoirPW; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 00:42:52 +0000 From: "Mark Watson" To: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net Talk" , "DarrellWalker" References: <20130312224306.066IG.58700.root@cdptpa-web01-z01> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:42:49 -0400 s=q20121106; t=1363135372; bh=eXg8q59n4wECb1vmG2jg0Eu+eaZvSa3fRlWn1E/aAH4=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=SD7nHOMv9ook4J+vrsw2xKKec8aPHbbSYjf06nUDjYrQ5zd1/WUgrE2SIHuAVKvWR I2vdd4cNDfHxyPnHkwssYiJHq8HgZDHv8yTUKrTABbNOT4W1TLfehNjGBlsbDevv3F +1zNftmVFIuNtEhSry7GXRFw8+y03IyxVqZW4/GxCU4GDLkhaeChyd51d3Tc5y2bfo 2WPH1EtgAML4gj0nMXzWkB9gFdNE/pEM/Aj4KcfZcb8AI1q2IL6Ml2bh605Xsn4N+j K8ou7rbsieNb04LCnn/RWpfrQd8Uz87vzS7UXRvHO6EGpDbpgXqH2WL4IuqkkSkUwM I54eqgRMGpjFg== Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Hi, Darrell, OK, the Electronics teacher in me just had to come out. I poked around on the net a little and couldn't find many details about how an electric gauge like this would work. My concern is about the power that a pot would need to dissipate to simulate the sender. According to one description the circuit in the meter applies a constant current through the sensor so the meter is just basically an ohmmeter with the meter scaled appropriately. If this is true of yours and the current is low enough you won't have any problems. Based on my reading on the net I don't think the following is an issue but I'm going to mention it anyway: On the other extreme if a full 12V is applied to the sender then at the lowest resistance it would pull I = V / R = 12V / 85 Ohms = 0.14A. If you use a potentiometer set to 85 Ohms then the pot would be dissipating P = V^2 / R = 12^2 / 85 = 144 / 85 = 1.7 Watts. The two pots mentioned so far would fairly quickly fry trying to dissipate this amount of power. I did see one mention of 5V being applied to the sender. In that instance the power dissipation would be 5^2 / 85 = 0.3 Watts. The pot that Greg linked to is a 1/2 Watt unit so should would survive this treatment undamaged IF you don't go much lower than that resistance (P = V^2 / R so R = V^2 / P = 5 ^2 / 0.5 = 50 Ohms minimum). Now you've got me curious about how an electric oil pressure system. Blast - yet another thing to investigate ;-) Hope this helps and doesn't confound the issue. Mark Watson 1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' (stalled restoration :-( 1965 Ford Falcon - brake work and various other uninspiring transportation pods -----Original Message----- From: Randall Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:43 PM To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Talk ; DarrellWalker Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor Radio Shack unfortunately doesn't carry much in the way of components any more. You're lucky if they get even close to what you want. But in this case, I think that http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062307 will do well enough. You won't be using its full range, but since it is 15 turns from 0 to 1K, you'll still get about 3 turns between 85 ohms and 285 ohms. Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 12 18:52:33 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B174043C for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:52:33 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from st11p02mm-asmtp001.mac.com (st11p02mm-asmtp001.mac.com [17.172.220.236]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38AC40411 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:52:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.25] (75-175-70-220.ptld.qwest.net [75.175.70.220]) by st11p02mm-asmtp001.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01(7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Jan 3 2012)) with ESMTPSA id <0MJK00DF8QCTDO90@st11p02mm-asmtp001.mac.com> for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 00:51:22 +0000 (GMT) engine=2.50.10432:5.10.8626,1.0.431,0.0.0000 definitions=2013-03-12_07:2013-03-12,2013-03-12,1970-01-01 signatures=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1302030000 definitions=main-1303120217 From: Darrell Walker Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:50:53 -0700 References: <20130312224306.066IG.58700.root@cdptpa-web01-z01> <1F8ED35DFAAE4B7A97CFD76F7711D082@Dell2010Watson> To: Mark Watson Cc: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net Talk" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Hi Mark, Thanks for the reply. I believe you are correct, the gauge is just an ohm meter, with the resistance values mapped to pressure (in this case, temp gauges work the same way). The gauge has three connections, +12V (or whatever the electrical system is producing, I believe the gauge has its own voltage compensation, unlike the older gauges), ground, and the sense wire to the sender. The sensor would provide resistance between the spade connector and ground. So I should be able to connect the gauge up to 12 volts, and then measure voltage between the sense terminal and ground to see what voltage the gauge uses to read the resistance, right? -Darrell On Mar 12, 2013, at 5:42 PM, Mark Watson wrote: > Hi, Darrell, > > OK, the Electronics teacher in me just had to come out. I poked around on the net a little and couldn't find many details about how an electric gauge like this would work. My concern is about the power that a pot would need to dissipate to simulate the sender. According to one description the circuit in the meter applies a constant current through the sensor so the meter is just basically an ohmmeter with the meter scaled appropriately. If this is true of yours and the current is low enough you won't have any problems. > > Based on my reading on the net I don't think the following is an issue but I'm going to mention it anyway: > > On the other extreme if a full 12V is applied to the sender then at the lowest resistance it would pull I = V / R = 12V / 85 Ohms = 0.14A. If you use a potentiometer set to 85 Ohms then the pot would be dissipating P = V^2 / R = 12^2 / 85 = 144 / 85 = 1.7 Watts. The two pots mentioned so far would fairly quickly fry trying to dissipate this amount of power. > > I did see one mention of 5V being applied to the sender. In that instance the power dissipation would be 5^2 / 85 = 0.3 Watts. The pot that Greg linked to is a 1/2 Watt unit so should would survive this treatment undamaged IF you don't go much lower than that resistance (P = V^2 / R so R = V^2 / P = 5 ^2 / 0.5 = 50 Ohms minimum). > > Now you've got me curious about how an electric oil pressure system. Blast - yet another thing to investigate ;-) > > Hope this helps and doesn't confound the issue. > > Mark Watson > 1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' (stalled restoration :-( > 1965 Ford Falcon - brake work > and various other uninspiring transportation pods > > -----Original Message----- From: Randall > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:43 PM > To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Talk ; DarrellWalker > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor > > Radio Shack unfortunately doesn't carry much in the way of components any more. You're lucky if they get even close to what you want. > > But in this case, I think that > http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062307 > will do well enough. You won't be using its full range, but since it is 15 turns from 0 to 1K, you'll still get about 3 turns between 85 ohms and 285 ohms. > > Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 12 19:57:32 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C0740434 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:57:32 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-we0-f169.google.com (mail-we0-f169.google.com [74.125.82.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1500E40403 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:57:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-we0-f169.google.com with SMTP id t11so507453wey.14 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:56:18 -0700 (PDT) s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=5rlPgP9vqVMOYw7nmt46rIfrURPf0AbYp47VpEIJKgs=; b=gCNj7iA9YpVfjm4YZxiN6DPOO1U/NA2QkW9aeeICSAGNnSyssmTb84RCFm2HYjfe4F urTNHXOWNHiBXkQJBv0R1br4xT0vRyKzDFGnadk8IqDd17OQJoG2/+hj2CRr/DMsDKSk +Xit+4kyvUpw+5wQbRVx1BIu1KhDMoe192AnwE2Op9JL6NPoFUO+uIKDXAsdsahxX7jD NQjWab9QJZxn3FgGCkYfUxq3HdTTyCgiyHsGmVR0zj87U81cz40/CkqNtPm+W7TXiTCy AlgzPwW0DxQxuSxGauvN4kWBCiHugJXZgqWm6sFq2I4JlMftDWMPUXaAYiWuz4iCpGEA sS1Q== s9mr30796346wjs.5.1363139778309; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.0.11 with HTTP; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 21:56:18 -0400 From: Brad Kahler To: Shop Talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] caulk gun Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I'm in need of a new caulk gun and the only style I seem to be able to find has the smooth round shaft. My experience with a half dozen different guns like that is they work like crap. I bought the best one Lowes had to offer and it was just as bad as the rest of them. Somehow I lost my nice gun that had teeth for the ratchet mechanism. That gun always worked. Any suggestions on where to find a decent gun with teeth on the shaft? Thanks, Brad _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 12 20:36:07 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E3B4043B for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:36:07 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-da0-f48.google.com (mail-da0-f48.google.com [209.85.210.48]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F89403DF for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:34:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-da0-f48.google.com with SMTP id w4so194759dam.35 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:33:32 -0700 (PDT) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=NOLLYS5Pt/iUPlZZcEihiWYip2LOMnn4+kwEhl6DRF8=; b=Z8C7kFMC77IFdeYvdWpSYwv1gxZfnZ/NCZvK8rT81vPTWdn6exWasLt7o5F/HriA5F fDCfe56SZznVlMWjDHagq777NRZSilgyMz+XB97WFrP9CDrh3XBVKP+6MwqbqBhZgJWf v5rxP4LiYWNY5OZzOMVr3Xlvu+wYiTJXSKUshqecRuKbI6oCIW/GYvgOBLZbK41KcarK kEX1QNH2mOUH8K5rBAJUM4GB+tUvWlU0QTDJcWEvnz/Lcg6NRJs81Rr+X5PyBt/FZDWI OTazjkcmZqS69bTMeYgCV47sBNxhby5mR6N7vzMai66WIlhGXF3y9FNfnRQ8zSfVTaao OuuQ== vb4mr42348317pbc.202.1363142011560; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.72.129 with HTTP; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:33:31 -0700 (PDT) References: Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:33:31 -0400 From: Doug Braun To: Brad Kahler Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] caulk gun Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net About 10 years ago I had a great gun that my wife bought somewhere. All I know about it was that it was made in the UK, and it was orange. Then I lent it to somebody, and I never saw it again. A bit of googling led me to this: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/painting/63871-caulk-gun-made-england.html Doug On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 9:56 PM, Brad Kahler wrote: > I'm in need of a new caulk gun and the only style I seem to be able to find > has the smooth round shaft. My experience with a half dozen different guns > like that is they work like crap. I bought the best one Lowes had to offer > and it was just as bad as the rest of them. > > Somehow I lost my nice gun that had teeth for the ratchet mechanism. That > gun always worked. > > Any suggestions on where to find a decent gun with teeth on the shaft? > > Thanks, > > Brad > ____ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 12 20:51:53 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F57E40449 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:51:53 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from st11p02mm-asmtp001.mac.com (st11p02mm-asmtp001.mac.com [17.172.220.236]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83272403E6 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:50:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.25] (75-175-70-220.ptld.qwest.net [75.175.70.220]) by st11p02mm-asmtp001.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01(7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Jan 3 2012)) with ESMTPSA id <0MJK00MSMVT32310@st11p02mm-asmtp001.mac.com> for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 02:48:45 +0000 (GMT) engine=2.50.10432:5.10.8626,1.0.431,0.0.0000 definitions=2013-03-13_01:2013-03-13,2013-03-12,1970-01-01 signatures=0 spamscore=1 ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1302030000 definitions=main-1303120249 From: Darrell Walker Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:48:38 -0700 References: <20130313015411.2IRV0.59769.root@cdptpa-web01-z01> To: Randall Cc: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net Talk" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Hi Randall, It definitely isn't a bimetallic strip type. There appears to be two windings overlapping in a kind of inverted "V", and the needle is free to float between them. My guess is the windings create a magnetic field that moves the needle, but how that magic happens is beyond me. I ended up ordering a 500 ohm, 1/4 watt pot. When it arrives, I'll set it to 500 ohms and report back! -Darrell On Mar 12, 2013, at 6:54 PM, Randall wrote: > Good point about power dissipation. Wish I had a good answer. > > There are several different designs of electric automotive gauges; and I don't know which type Darrell has. I believe the Jaguar oil pressure gauge that I have uses a "balanced" magnetic movement somewhat similar to the design used for the fuel gauge in my TR3 but with somewhat higher resistances. Here is a circuit diagram: > http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/electric/fg_05.htm#fg_diag > > But I haven't had it hooked up yet, so I'm not certain. > > Another common movement type uses a bimetal strip and a heater. As the strip is heated, the differential expansion of the two dissimilar metals forces the strip to bend. That motion is transmitted to the needle through a lever that greatly amplifies the movement. This type of movement was used for the fuel and temp gauges for TR4-6, as well as my 1970 Audi. > > None of which really answers the question. Best suggestion I have is to start with the pot at highest resistance, then measure the voltage across it and calculate an equivalent resistance for the gauge. Then you can calculate the current and power dissipation at 85 ohms and see if you are in trouble. A higher power control will quickly get you into territory where it makes better financial sense to just buy the sender. > > Unless maybe you can poke around and find one on the surplus market for cheap. There are a couple here: > http://goo.gl/trCYq > that would do. > > Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 12 22:55:46 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8864040427 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:55:46 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58DC40403 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:55:38 -0600 (MDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=A1HtbXkA/g1oPBhnry3S+2K7hoIDJckzTB3VJA8XyRx1U4VNFtquIV1J3XiSPyiU; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.129.25.88] (helo=[192.168.1.3]) by elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1UFdhy-0005gB-M1; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 00:54:34 -0400 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 21:53:49 -0700 From: Brian Kemp User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130215 Thunderbird/17.0.3 To: Brad Kahler References: Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] caulk gun Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Brad - I have one of the orange caulk guns another list member mentioned. It is made by Cox and says Wexford and made in England. I thought I got it at Home Depot a number of years ago, but they don't have it on their website, though they do have other Cox products. See http://www.amazon.com/41001-Wexford-10-3-Ounce-Cartridge-Skeleton/dp/B000DZCYLA or a fiberglass one http://www.amazon.com/21001-10-3-Ounce-Cartridge-Skeleton-Fiberglass/dp/B000FPDFHA for samples. If the links don't work just put in "cox caulk gun" at Amazon and select under $25. I highly recommend this gun. Mine is metal and has gone though many tubes, including some old stuff that went hard. It doesn't have teeth like you wanted, but I can say it will apply considerable pressure and not slip. This shaft is a hexagon. At the same time, when you release the grip, it slightly eases the pressure, so the caulk stops. The bent hook one the back of the shaft is great for hanging on a pocket or part of a ladder. I pulled out my cheap caulk gun last summer because I misplaced the Cox one and there is so much difference, I looked till I found the good one. Brian On 3/12/2013 6:56 PM, Brad Kahler wrote: > I'm in need of a new caulk gun and the only style I seem to be able to find > has the smooth round shaft. My experience with a half dozen different guns > like that is they work like crap. I bought the best one Lowes had to offer > and it was just as bad as the rest of them. > > Somehow I lost my nice gun that had teeth for the ratchet mechanism. That > gun always worked. > > Any suggestions on where to find a decent gun with teeth on the shaft? > > Thanks, > > Brad > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 12 23:11:40 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D524053F for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:11:40 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E4034044C for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:11:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by bradakis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796E6A145D for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:12:05 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:12:05 -0600 From: Mark J Bradakis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:19.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/19.0 SeaMonkey/2.16 To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] Forums Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have fixed the problem with new registrations for the forums [ link below ] so those who are not already registered can sign up. mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Mar 13 07:59:45 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6ADB42887 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 07:59:44 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from st11p02mm-asmtp005.mac.com (st11p02mm-asmtpout005.mac.com [17.172.220.240]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33C584041B for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 07:59:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.25] (75-175-70-220.ptld.qwest.net [75.175.70.220]) by st11p02mm-asmtp005.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01(7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Jan 3 2012)) with ESMTPSA id <0MJL00JK1QRINH30@st11p02mm-asmtp005.mac.com> for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:57:30 +0000 (GMT) engine=2.50.10432:5.10.8626,1.0.431,0.0.0000 definitions=2013-03-13_07:2013-03-13,2013-03-13,1970-01-01 signatures=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1302030000 definitions=main-1303130078 From: Darrell Walker Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 06:57:18 -0700 References: <20130313015411.2IRV0.59769.root@cdptpa-web01-z01> <37FFC5FF-8DE7-4596-BF6C-C51E238A7E62@mac.com> To: "Shop-talk@autox.team.net Talk" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I did a little more inspection of the gauge, and checked the resistance between the power connection and the sensor, and power and ground. I see 328 ohms between power and ground on the gauge, and 178 between power and the sensor connection. Looking at the link that Randall provided, I believe the operation of my gauge is the similar, though the construction is different. One coil is wired from power directly to ground, and the other is wired through the sensor, so the resistance in that path would vary between 263 and 463 ohms (178 plus the variable resistance from the sensor). I believe this causes two magnetic fields (one fixed, one variable) that act on the needle and register the oil pressure (as presented by the variable resistance in the sensor). At least, that's my guess! _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Mar 13 11:11:16 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B011A40547 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:11:16 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from gateway07.websitewelcome.com (gateway07.websitewelcome.com [70.85.67.23]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50C6C40443 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:11:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: by gateway07.websitewelcome.com (Postfix, from userid 5007) id 3CA03AE919046; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:09:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gator52.hostgator.com (gator52.hostgator.com [184.173.194.222]) by gateway07.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3005CAE919018 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:09:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from leexray by gator52.hostgator.com with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UFpBf-0000Gn-Ac for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:09:59 -0500 Received: from 208.87.137.231 ([208.87.137.231]) (proxying for 208.23.240.1) (SquirrelMail authenticated user lee@automate-it.com) by www.automate-it.com with HTTP; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:09:59 -0500 References: <513E8903.5070103@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:09:59 -0500 From: "Lee Daniels" To: shop-talk@autox.team.net User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22 with any abuse report /usr/local/cpanel/base/3rdparty/squirrelmail/src/compose.php Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] "Rebuild kit" for Milwaukee 18V battery Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net These same guys (Spring Grove Battery) have rebuild kits for several other batteries too: Dewalt 14.4V, Milwaukee 14.4V, Dewalt 12V. See http://goo.gl/mGbF0 And even more listed at their web site: http://www.springgrovebattery.com/ > Please do. I've got at least six (and maybe eight) Milwaukee 18v packs > in the house. So many (and so dead) that I've started to lose track of them. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Mar 13 13:10:50 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FEFA40547 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:10:50 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wg0-f54.google.com (mail-wg0-f54.google.com [74.125.82.54]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5FCF40427 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:10:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f54.google.com with SMTP id fm10so1345029wgb.9 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:09:34 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Jd8qRKCE8Vr2ytlFC86ib3P9JqmXSs2AWpJM+BK3mzc=; b=KP4AbWs73sp8mknJMLl3BpAkVpH+MNXeNIU19hFOIFy6VTH5DLlJxhQbHGYLlth5GR NABSJbs5/li1eOPOVUFCMq5qF7yyB4m4oAFqZ7hIFgoLjHQDOFvvkpy6d1mhEXhAt3DH iCuFST2K3HuDkDd1gDNDUNXF7KFTAKzO9dFFE= d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=Jd8qRKCE8Vr2ytlFC86ib3P9JqmXSs2AWpJM+BK3mzc=; b=KpNe0irR3UxlraWpND9P+2BlIVZicRS1DamzXkqA5uunWBDoEkgBP7WxWfVlSs8Ydy IsNlXb7t7uKtPTq7MBh7KHa7r6abfurZCN/XerUQzzRDgpkgDQePEMPEO3QiV9OoNQrO sQEjlXcq/CuDDQDDnvoHUo5VuiV/38ivdZNbC1qE7xFFDcXgVAkQpF5Aq5mbzN1OTF2t hpiy+YZB2Phx0RG5ZGjDuQ6xTTT+7KLSJwBakSwTgSyMLd0tQBaF12YyX4znPUH7EKdd yhl2u82qRvEdRt60pIeO2NONoCUkZ3aYOhQlhMVTJ0qJdIp4DFy8qobZq8afju1SfiA4 nR3w== bs2mr34541424wib.0.1363201774656; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.143.3 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:09:34 -0700 (PDT) References: <513E8903.5070103@gmail.com> <271d271631a57f5b8a842caf9af2d7d5.squirrel@www.automate-it.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:09:34 -0400 From: Justin Bedard To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] "Rebuild kit" for Milwaukee 18V battery Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I haven't used them, but I've heard good things. These guys rebuild the batteries for you for and at least the Milwaukee 18v NiCAD rebuild is $48.75 vs $43.50 plus shipping your batteries out. On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Lee Daniels wrote: > These same guys (Spring Grove Battery) have rebuild kits for several other > batteries too: Dewalt 14.4V, Milwaukee 14.4V, Dewalt 12V. See > http://goo.gl/mGbF0 > And even more listed at their web site: http://www.springgrovebattery.com/ > > > > Please do. I've got at least six (and maybe eight) Milwaukee 18v packs > > in the house. So many (and so dead) that I've started to lose track of > them. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jb@lerch.org _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Mar 13 18:12:53 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8A04428A6 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:12:53 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F3A42883 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:11:00 -0600 (MDT) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:57:28 -0400 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 03/13/2013 19:56:28, Serialize complete at 03/13/2013 19:56:28 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net OK, I know we beat this horse to death, and I thought I understood it, but I guess i didn't. Here is the situation, I need to add lighting for the shop. I'm replacing two- 4' fluorescent fixtures. The ceiling is at 14' and the area I want to light in front of where I work on cars. So I figured I would add four- 4' fluorescent light fixtures in a "U" shape around the area. (Think of a parked car... One light on each side of the front 1/4 panels and two perpendicular to the front of the car so the lights are wrapped around the front end.) I wanted the brightest fluorescent lights I could find. I hung 32watt, dual bulb T8 fixtures with 6500 Lumens about 1' down from the ceiling (so about 13' off the ground, I need it them this high for clearance issues.) Anyway, I turned them on and I was quite disappointed. So disappointed that I hooked up my old 4' fluorescent fixtures with unknown T12 bulbs and wattage. The different was huge! The new lights were nothing compared to the old ones. My question is... I want the brightest fluorescent fixtures I can get. I don't care if they are 4' or 8'. What fixture (wattage and "T" value) do I get and what bulbs do I put in them. These lights are on for most of the time I'm in my shop, so I don't want anything that sucks electricity, but I will if I have to. Thanks again! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Mar 13 18:19:57 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32CF9428BC for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:19:57 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.198]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC35F4052E for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:19:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Steve-PC.optonline.net (ool-457e690f.dyn.optonline.net [69.126.105.15]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPA id <0MJM002WAJJ297R0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:18:28 -0400 From: Steven Trovato To: eric@megageek.com, shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net New fluorescent tubes require a "break in" period to achieve full brightness. Did you leave them on for a while before you judged them inadequate? -Steve Trovato strovato@optonline.net At 07:57 PM 3/13/2013, eric@megageek.com wrote: >OK, I know we beat this horse to death, and I thought I understood it, but >I guess i didn't. > >Here is the situation, I need to add lighting for the shop. I'm replacing >two- 4' fluorescent fixtures. The ceiling is at 14' and the area I want >to light in front of where I work on cars. So I figured I would add four- >4' fluorescent light fixtures in a "U" shape around the area. (Think of a >parked car... One light on each side of the front 1/4 panels and two >perpendicular to the front of the car so the lights are wrapped around the >front end.) > >I wanted the brightest fluorescent lights I could find. I hung 32watt, >dual bulb T8 fixtures with 6500 Lumens about 1' down from the ceiling (so >about 13' off the ground, I need it them this high for clearance issues.) > >Anyway, I turned them on and I was quite disappointed. So disappointed >that I hooked up my old 4' fluorescent fixtures with unknown T12 bulbs and >wattage. The different was huge! The new lights were nothing compared to >the old ones. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Mar 13 18:28:37 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A020242883 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:28:37 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE8A14052E for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:25:54 -0600 (MDT) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:12:28 -0400 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 03/13/2013 20:11:22, Serialize complete at 03/13/2013 20:11:22 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] "Rebuild kit" for Milwaukee 18V battery Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I used "Primecell" in the past for my dewalts 18V and they were very disappointing. The contact on the batteries corroded, while other original batteries (stored next to them) are fine. Also, the rebuilt batteries didn't last very long. I'm very curious to see how the kits works out for you, as I will buy a bunch for my dewalts if it is anything good. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson These same guys (Spring Grove Battery) have rebuild kits for several other batteries too: Dewalt 14.4V, Milwaukee 14.4V, Dewalt 12V. See http://goo.gl/mGbF0 And even more listed at their web site: http://www.springgrovebattery.com/ http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric@megageek.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Mar 13 18:43:30 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9F2428A9 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:43:30 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1030240519 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:39:58 -0600 (MDT) Authentication-Results: cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com smtp.user=tr3driver@ca.rr.com; auth=pass (LOGIN) a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=1WER2Bl4f7EA:10 a=WQnM-DpkZpSoDiNFw68A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Bc9c7qoAuKlRg6BgnzgyhA==:117 Received: from [10.127.132.92] ([10.127.132.92:48363] helo=cdptpa-web01-z01) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTPA id F9/75-06772-91C11415; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:38:50 +0000 Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 0:38:49 +0000 From: Randall To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net, eric@megageek.com Sensitivity: Normal Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > I hung 32watt, > dual bulb T8 fixtures with 6500 Lumens I think there must be some mistake here. Are you sure that isn't color temperature (K) instead of lumens? The highest output 32 watt T8 bulb I could find is only rated at 2950 lumens (so 5900 for the pair). Did they have reflectors? Easy way to nearly double the amount of light where you want it. To get the light, you're going to have to run the power. Brightest for it's length would be a T12 HO (high output) bulb, at 60 watts for a 48". An 8' HO T12 would give you about twice as much light, for twice as much power. I have (5) 8' 2-bulb fixtures to cover my 2 car bays, but they are only about 8' from the floor. You'll need more with them up at 13'. Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Mar 13 18:59:05 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 127074289F for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:59:05 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-pb0-f48.google.com (mail-pb0-f48.google.com [209.85.160.48]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64B4640395 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:57:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f48.google.com with SMTP id wy12so1544870pbc.21 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:56:37 -0700 (PDT) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=F6RuzVs2JevWDTOMk/oV2Q9cMOxF1nkRd7Yd4K1qoNU=; b=psMx9QJrCn3KoWYDc+foxiuzf9KojXl2jalw1DAfJtI+f3IuPXP/pFj5SZKROEzUU9 /dS+fU4NYQW40zOXPVY66zr1XJF2dS3mwWd9MBSYLH0lyXDJdOfL28hRjrGrp2V7W5mr ZLejFGHghBE/Sgyp0tz+/S6vkpvBMsYFGQP73TMRGfoevuiiEj59Fp2JFd4rHcCtjGBb fntSlNXQakSIdwT/NIpcnPndFizvEYYrDtNlSL4gqt0ySuNYe0Vb9dsd2LmxUGFdMUtb 8P+ArAoY2NDhst39yw8u3RyBADOfZjlgHwQMvISSYy+hgD0cxMqTKuH7Hfb/vKw/ShgI nEyA== er1mr1006437pbc.151.1363222597297; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.72.129 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:56:37 -0700 (PDT) References: <0MJM002WCJJ397R0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:56:37 -0400 From: Doug Braun To: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have a pair of fixtures that take 8-foot T12 HO bulbs (which have a different type of pins at each end). They are real bright. Last year I found reasonably-priced GE electronic ballasts to replaced the original magnetic ones, and now they start right up in winter weather, and are totally silent. But I suspect that these types of fixtures are being phased out. Doug > At 07:57 PM 3/13/2013, eric@megageek.com wrote: > >> OK, I know we beat this horse to death, and I thought I understood it, but >> I guess i didn't. >> >> Here is the situation, I need to add lighting for the shop. I'm replacing >> two- 4' fluorescent fixtures. The ceiling is at 14' and the area I want >> to light in front of where I work on cars. So I figured I would add four- >> 4' fluorescent light fixtures in a "U" shape around the area. (Think of a >> parked car... One light on each side of the front 1/4 panels and two >> perpendicular to the front of the car so the lights are wrapped around the >> front end.) >> >> I wanted the brightest fluorescent lights I could find. I hung 32watt, >> dual bulb T8 fixtures with 6500 Lumens about 1' down from the ceiling (so >> about 13' off the ground, I need it them this high for clearance issues.) >> >> Anyway, I turned them on and I was quite disappointed. So disappointed >> that I hooked up my old 4' fluorescent fixtures with unknown T12 bulbs and >> wattage. The different was huge! The new lights were nothing compared to >> the old ones. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Mar 13 19:15:33 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAACC4255C for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:15:33 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm14.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm14.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.212.173]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 0B2724052E for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:09:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [98.139.212.153] by nm14.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Mar 2013 01:08:50 -0000 Received: from [98.139.211.201] by tm10.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Mar 2013 01:08:50 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp210.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Mar 2013 01:08:50 -0000 s=s1024; t=1363223330; bh=wYCQmDSx2/OkObxzcgb/2UGfJ/SHEr2uaHEBIOENkiY=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-Rocket-Received:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Importance:From:To:Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=rHNnIGEkkVB7QIeynaLMFK+3Dalg83hnbbGthLE4jCEVPpSHkD2miSlDkCgmee1FG+A8WsE1Di0eTGt8VULFjT4tIncBt09jkifWVYWYl5KjfcscPeBqyQKATaYJM1TetjcvQo2rBXeLW3V8XyWcI5yDB3KOmFsEQe8mZ14XHog= KyuEofRL3uo66WHRLnU9mh9beOyrGBEZCQBeKSV0gXu61SS7K1NV33pIcfrw NwUTeQWqRk9S9rnn05.PnOy30kfOhlzooReYfvmv0kSiWvenlZ1dXMzv90.m BZhtgim78AdC9Bydjl2aMcmGG6UVlRwbieHb_npTdkvyVqLTe6t_QVAJKMry RAe1YsULurj8lmsrYQrLjEPXAWWm8.99wmB6cWMrnkgm9RTVrE49gAbqqzTR ND_RNe93h0wOD2jVrq5c_jh.gib8FfF17E3MpiCSKYueE00DwqAMtvPFLabZ pgmvVMXfgHJMzng14FeH6KH6pXDFx7XGaTZUNpmsHP1NU_MehNUyagrhfYPs _03Qespj3RjmgrIaJu3d6gVxqnB5spUeifjKUeURXdgVpEAmmBjCMyuPxkLB P3o9da5ZE6R5RWF.wD8V3wDYEssbx2g3QVqD6q_soe36IF1uXlxAnxpHTsk3 qTn4.lFwVZQLghvGN0hSA635.NH8HxQ-- plain) by smtp210.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Mar 2013 18:08:50 -0700 PDT Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:08:27 -0500 From: Randy To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net If you are buying new fixtures I'd go with either the T5 or T8. The T12 are being phased out and are less efficient.Doug Braun wrote:I have a pair of fixtures that take 8-foot T12 HO bulbs (which have a different type of pins at each end). They are real bright.B Last year I found reasonably-priced GE electronic ballasts to replaced the original magnetic ones, and now they start right up in winter weather, and are totally silent. But I suspect that these types of fixtures are being phased out. Doug > At 07:57 PM 3/13/2013, eric@megageek.com wrote: > >> OK, I know we beat this horse to death, and I thought I understood it, but >> I guess i didn't. >> >> Here is the situation, I need to add lighting for the shop. I'm replacing >> two- 4' fluorescent fixtures.B The ceiling is at 14'B and the area I want >> to light in front of where I work on cars.B So I figured I would add four- >> 4' fluorescent light fixtures in a "U" shape around the area.B (Think of a >> parked car...B One light on each side of the front 1/4 panels and two >> perpendicular to the front of the car so the lights are wrapped around the >> front end.) >> >> I wanted the brightest fluorescent lights I could find.B I hung 32watt, >> dual bulb T8 fixtures with 6500 Lumens about 1' down from the ceiling (so >> about 13' off the ground, I need it them this high for clearance issues.) >> >> Anyway, I turned them on and I was quite disappointed.B So disappointed >> that I hooked up my old 4' fluorescent fixtures with unknown T12 bulbs and >> wattage.B The different was huge!B The new lights were nothing compared to >> the old ones. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 14 09:17:06 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE38440446 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:17:06 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wg0-f43.google.com (mail-wg0-f43.google.com [74.125.82.43]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A9D403FD for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:16:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id e12so1763136wge.34 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:15:43 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=6Xi6jczg0wbBhJ9nJfvtsIOjOZ4mQWaw/7BYvc1iny0=; b=kt9aOZwWi02u9yKR+xs41L17FKtqN4hqLTmBuPJjUfvIw+Pa2iUoPRMVDbiK4OPcui ozUISLl6IMbiTjiZJ2LATvAcgPYwyJ7X+7xZlu7ofOO52QqYOInDojF92iSKnNalcfCv iTO8B08Tm3f9O4tA/sOjotCH8ihPzXu4dkTTv0Te9p5MnulBxCCG+vmI8NYGlIBBhU+A ZuBE9M5JDHUvFoc0XHvBL90POlmn84oAzXzwAAv+GLH7e7Qy3XtHyc0T6xysIn8EPgpp 6PkQ3cC2GU5zWlXC+XVQG2vB3sXc9jKLBImC9XPGZuXovxaupwmK2PmqJVpHHLc+t2Jr +DoQ== s9mr4744144wic.25.1363274143774; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.0.11 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:15:43 -0700 (PDT) References: <5140065D.4020409@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:15:43 -0400 From: Brad Kahler To: Brian Kemp Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] caulk gun Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Guys, thanks for the response. I would have replied sooner but I've been a little under the weather the last few days. I think I'll pick up the one that Brian recommends and give it a try. I guess no one sells the type with teeth on it anymore :( Thanks! Brad On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:53 AM, Brian Kemp wrote: > Brad - I have one of the orange caulk guns another list member mentioned. > It is made by Cox and says Wexford and made in England. I thought I got it > at Home Depot a number of years ago, but they don't have it on their > website, though they do have other Cox products. > > See > > http://www.amazon.com/41001-**Wexford-10-3-Ounce-Cartridge-** > Skeleton/dp/B000DZCYLA > > or a fiberglass one > > http://www.amazon.com/21001-**10-3-Ounce-Cartridge-Skeleton-** > Fiberglass/dp/B000FPDFHA > > for samples. If the links don't work just put in "cox caulk gun" at > Amazon and select under $25. > > I highly recommend this gun. Mine is metal and has gone though many > tubes, including some old stuff that went hard. It doesn't have teeth like > you wanted, but I can say it will apply considerable pressure and not slip. > This shaft is a hexagon. At the same time, when you release the grip, it > slightly eases the pressure, so the caulk stops. The bent hook one the > back of the shaft is great for hanging on a pocket or part of a ladder. > > I pulled out my cheap caulk gun last summer because I misplaced the Cox > one and there is so much difference, I looked till I found the good one. > > Brian > > On 3/12/2013 6:56 PM, Brad Kahler wrote: > >> I'm in need of a new caulk gun and the only style I seem to be able to >> find >> has the smooth round shaft. My experience with a half dozen different >> guns >> like that is they work like crap. I bought the best one Lowes had to >> offer >> and it was just as bad as the rest of them. >> >> Somehow I lost my nice gun that had teeth for the ratchet mechanism. That >> gun always worked. >> >> Any suggestions on where to find a decent gun with teeth on the shaft? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Brad >> ______________________________**_________________ >> >> Shop-talk@autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** >> options/shop-talk/bk13@**earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 14 09:44:48 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B5C54044D for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:44:48 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from g2host.com (mailfront3.g2host.com [208.42.184.241]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 856424032C for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:44:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [76.164.52.117] (account arvidj@visi.com HELO HP62011) by mailfront3.g2host.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTPA id 101572521 for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:43:30 -0500 From: "Arvid Jedlicka" To: "Shop Talk List" Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:43:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] caulk gun Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Just a guess on my part but I think the kind with teeth are called "ratchet caulk gun". A Google for that phrase seems to offer many vendors and many guns. -----Original Message----- From: Brad Kahler Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 10:15 AM To: Brian Kemp Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] caulk gun Guys, thanks for the response. I would have replied sooner but I've been a little under the weather the last few days. I think I'll pick up the one that Brian recommends and give it a try. I guess no one sells the type with teeth on it anymore :( Thanks! Brad _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 14 16:25:48 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B21DB4044C for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:25:48 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6CDE403FB for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:25:32 -0600 (MDT) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:10:54 -0400 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 03/14/2013 18:10:54, Serialize complete at 03/14/2013 18:10:54 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Steven writes... >New fluorescent tubes require a "break in" period to achieve full >brightness. Did you leave them on for a while before you judged them >inadequate? I never heard this. How long are we talking? Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 14 16:27:43 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED513406AE for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:27:42 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07B140511 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:27:10 -0600 (MDT) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:12:35 -0400 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 03/14/2013 18:12:31, Serialize complete at 03/14/2013 18:12:31 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Randall asks, >Are you sure that isn't color temperature (K) instead of lumens? Yes, I had that confused? I see this is going to take a return trip to Lowes to get better lights. Thanks again guys Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 14 16:43:14 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3274044C for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:43:14 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ea0-f176.google.com (mail-ea0-f176.google.com [209.85.215.176]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1F4403A0 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:43:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-ea0-f176.google.com with SMTP id h10so1288089eaj.21 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:41:53 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=i+ZgBjPDbwxvqqJDwJSVySc7It6m8Gkb7QNdhnUVJ08=; b=V3dmACGR4aYcIZaLmpZWh9HcSaCyUDiQRRnm2DLtFsw9zNWXcPfMIjUevSuuHDHf0V 2OmIJV83BKvTxeVYhvvofqDBCvoL2Pf8odnpgL8Crz2A45MgX1l0iaM4IDK9af7igH8H 7OVzoYBGfvfD9PPKT9dmwB4UyTe0vdAu6ILiEMatWeHO817P7tqlV1+7gHaolqlmzYin dezkmeV2Wy//o/YMitrlr1yHzJSe0NH8ts9j1/jaI2LlTwaYi+ZzqhCqACJdSzPfwEES fLQUp6PAn5DOX+iNeOBQXsbNhXmblAhbtZ3bp42tLWSceGqMRYlkwTrN4PG73YpCumt9 5pzA== z9mr11422926een.20.1363300913850; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.160.74 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:41:53 -0700 (PDT) References: <0MJM002WCJJ397R0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:41:53 -0500 From: David Scheidt To: eric@megageek.com Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:10 PM, wrote: > Steven writes... > >>New fluorescent tubes require a "break in" period to achieve full >>brightness. Did you leave them on for a while before you judged them >>inadequate? > > I never heard this. How long are we talking? 12 to 24 hours. It's particularly important with dimming ballasts, because improper burn in leads to greatly reduced lamp life. Proper burn in increases lamp life, increases output, and decreases warm up time. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Mar 14 23:29:13 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6760E40452 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:29:13 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EA2B40443 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:28:51 -0600 (MDT) a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=Ibsq_cnyr2MA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=1WER2Bl4f7EA:10 a=XIli_qlxAAAA:20 a=qQBf71oFAAAA:20 a=HJX4474ZAAAA:20 a=EqlK4Z8SAAAA:20 a=zt8aqSGHAAAA:20 a=_uiI90kyAAAA:20 a=se2nXgC06rPfb3erny0A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=jakiSN1y5I8A:10 a=fO8llzdn_ksA:10 a=Aa8pD0hGQ_sA:10 a=2qCPOEIbPU-MMSl0:21 a=9mPEf9zJhWYlUEVH:21 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55007] helo=randall) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 74/3C-06772-741B2415; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 05:27:36 +0000 From: "Randall" Cc: "'shop-talk'" Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:27:40 -0700 Thread-Index: Ac4hBSpi5eOqR6YDRCGxL7imkKOXYQAN1yLw Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > 12 to 24 hours. It's particularly important with dimming > ballasts, because improper burn in leads to greatly reduced > lamp life. Proper burn in increases lamp life, increases > output, and decreases warm up time. Seems to be a lot of variation in recommendations. Philips and GE claim at least some of their bulbs don't require burn-in http://goo.gl/pW84Z http://goo.gl/mhqrI While Osram suggests 100 hours, not just 12 to 24 http://goo.gl/3mYtq But I couldn't find anything to suggest that light output rises after burn-in; in fact it drops somewhat from "initial" lumens to "design" lumens. It also applies only to bulbs that will be dimmed, which I doubt Inch is planning to do. Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Mar 15 05:48:37 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E39840537 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 05:48:37 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.198]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2063940537 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 05:47:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Steve-PC.optonline.net (ool-457e690f.dyn.optonline.net [69.126.105.15]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPA id <0MJP003ZEA1SB0B0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 07:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 07:44:58 -0400 From: Steven Trovato To: Randall References: <74.3C.06772.741B2415@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Cc: 'shop-talk' Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net My personal experience is that if I replace the tubes in one fixture, it will appear noticeably less bright at first. An hour later, it will look like the others. I don't know how long it takes to actually reach full brightness in scientific terms. I just know that if I judged them by the first five minutes, I'd be taking them back for a refund. And this is with Walmart shoplights, Philips bulbs, no dimmers. -Steve Trovato strovato@optonline.net At 01:27 AM 3/15/2013, Randall wrote: > > 12 to 24 hours. It's particularly important with dimming > > ballasts, because improper burn in leads to greatly reduced > > lamp life. Proper burn in increases lamp life, increases > > output, and decreases warm up time. > >Seems to be a lot of variation in recommendations. Philips and GE claim at >least some of their bulbs don't require burn-in >http://goo.gl/pW84Z >http://goo.gl/mhqrI >While Osram suggests 100 hours, not just 12 to 24 >http://goo.gl/3mYtq > >But I couldn't find anything to suggest that light output rises after >burn-in; in fact it drops somewhat from "initial" lumens to "design" lumens. >It also applies only to bulbs that will be dimmed, which I doubt Inch is >planning to do. > >Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Mar 16 08:54:53 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E43D943060 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2013 08:54:53 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.webworldinc.com (mail.webworldinc.com [8.27.163.78]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4959D4305A for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2013 08:54:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlDesktop (c-68-43-236-190.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.43.236.190]) by mail.webworldinc.com with SMTP; Sat, 16 Mar 2013 07:53:02 -0700 From: "Al Fuller" To: "'Roland Wilhelmy'" , References: Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:52:46 -0400 thread-index: Acu8WW0tJB5r0GgeSRCTJ8O52/xEZYTL9/Hg Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] turn off the bubble machine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Roland [and all]: Did you ever determine the source of the air bubbles in your water system? I too have a well and softened system, and have air in the lines. It appears to be getting worse, progressing from a mere nuisance to having a functional impact on the system [eg, the volume of water getting to toilet tanks appears lower now, as does the ability to the 'power flush' toilets to work...] In my case the water heater is gas, not electric. There are two heaters installed, but IIRC, only one is working. Any help will be appreciated. Al Fuller al at bighealey dot org '62 BT-7 '65 BJ-8 '85 Rx-7 -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Roland Wilhelmy Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:04 AM To: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] turn off the bubble machine Ever since I had a new electric water heater installed there has been "air" in the water lines. This is long after the tank has been filled and all the air bled out of the system. Every time that we draw hot water after it has been unused for 8 hours or more, just as the water from the tap turns hot a whole lot of "air" bubbles out too over the next minute or so of flow. Has anyone on the list encountered this? I assume that some sort of electrolytic reaction is generating the "air". A google search didn't come up with anything beside that fact that sacrificial anodes are attacked more fiercely if the tank is supplied with soft water. Something about the salt. But nothing about anything generating all this "air". We do have softened water. I am going to call the plumbers who installed the heater but I would feel better if I had some idea of what is going on before I call them. -Roland _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/al@bighealey.org _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Mar 16 14:55:51 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 616A94319C for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2013 14:55:51 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.212]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4253E43197 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2013 14:51:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.94.237.126] by nm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Mar 2013 20:50:09 -0000 Received: from [98.139.221.52] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Mar 2013 20:50:09 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp105.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Mar 2013 20:50:09 -0000 s=s1024; t=1363467009; bh=EgOjTEcpU+X3DayJck22Bn2tnUsz3QDZzi1HuJTP4/4=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To:X-Mailer:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Antivirus:X-Antivirus-Status; b=SbkHJwJJLLZNCjywtBofs86+NvaJ9u88Z9vywsHMMbhy0kOixjaO2bRkjyL8OBScjN+ZC5Q8v5BNKfIRaIddqD2fQkpu4zfUOD0YtjDG06ZyYxx4RfN7Qbibe6ibIqUerRs2A1zQjnQ/hEB7fuRwsseMTLbE5RbPmNxkSJ/Jkmo= 3jPQOiAFskl5FExEeVNZfuumG5pSP.zV8vi3h0nZcDkuPFBjQKCmLStYIxhe Og8PO9Z4ebv1S3rBI1yHx7iP0BhmV7UIrfNNyEsSrCwHA3bunDm75epBhpHJ kPdBlLM9HtmETzTsEpoAg6gpcOmYoNkCXiq0tAGSp6qcVgHvar3unbNHdKbB uuEHz1zAcRbaFr26MdFoYuzNLEaDw_kf3fMkqYbZVsl1CZ5FSYOXjFNzc0MZ NrnY93vA807X7Ikozq4NrGkExtv3Pv05VqvPQYNqFoG64A3lPgHH.FFGHVaF QQA3XQ.mcVom8meQ2zZ3K393Z0Y6.G4ByWUQtGHLodMmBkS3aOez0L.3h.ix _aJBkgKIZ27aKUccV8oZI4E7zjhUGkienxbZkjZwfrUDghQ0aIHQlflKtWzj HoqQsJbw1fmiHDEXaJ.0V6ReVy78dMC.y57VbR74fezg9edGwO1T2A91kQvX xz2toLijmzzvzpld5ylV3lc3oZP4- Received: from localhost (rwil@71.136.238.52 with login) by smtp105.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 2013 13:50:09 -0700 PDT From: Roland Wilhelmy To: "Al Fuller" Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 13:50:15 -0700 References: <010901ce2255$ef074a40$cd15dec0$@org> Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] turn off the bubble machine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Al (et al.)- My air in the water lines problem gradually went away. Now I don't know if the problem was electrolysis and it stopped cuz there wasn't any more stuff to eat away or if the air came from some place beside the water supply. Since I have a service contract on the water heater I am just going to watch and wait. I tried to ignite the 'air' coming out of the tap but could not. This suggests that whatever the source of the gas it isn't from breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen. I wish I could give you more help. Do gas water heaters have sacrificial rods? If so you could pull them and see if they are being destroyed more rapidly than normal. Could you remove the second water heater from the plumbing and see if that helps? -Roland On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:52:46 -0400, you wrote: ::Roland [and all]: :: ::Did you ever determine the source of the air bubbles in your water system? :: ::I too have a well and softened system, and have air in the lines. It ::appears to be getting worse, progressing from a mere nuisance to having a ::functional impact on the system [eg, the volume of water getting to toilet ::tanks appears lower now, as does the ability to the 'power flush' toilets to ::work...] :: ::In my case the water heater is gas, not electric. There are two heaters ::installed, but IIRC, only one is working. :: ::Any help will be appreciated. :: ::Al Fuller ::al at bighealey dot org ::'62 BT-7 ::'65 BJ-8 ::'85 Rx-7 _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 17 08:26:18 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F60242E86 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 08:26:18 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.webworldinc.com (mail.webworldinc.com [8.27.163.78]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155404032A for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 08:22:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlDesktop (c-68-43-236-190.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.43.236.190]) by mail.webworldinc.com with SMTP; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 07:21:25 -0700 From: "Al Fuller" To: "'Roland Wilhelmy'" References: <010901ce2255$ef074a40$cd15dec0$@org> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 10:21:12 -0400 thread-index: Ac4ih+NRl9uYMDERTfSLYUPQE+dkBQAkntIA Content-Language: en-us Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] turn off the bubble machine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thanks Roland: Yes, gas heaters DO have sacrificial rods, but I agree with Paul that the rod is unlikely to make the volume of bubbles I'm seeing. I will have to go back to square one and try to diagnose it... One thought is the water table may have dropped down a bit, and the pump is sucking up some air with the water. Al Fuller al at bighealey dot org '62 BT-7 '65 BJ-8 '85 Rx-7 -----Original Message----- From: Roland Wilhelmy [mailto:rwil@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 4:50 PM To: Al Fuller Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] turn off the bubble machine Al (et al.)- My air in the water lines problem gradually went away. Now I don't know if the problem was electrolysis and it stopped cuz there wasn't any more stuff to eat away or if the air came from some place beside the water supply. Since I have a service contract on the water heater I am just going to watch and wait. I tried to ignite the 'air' coming out of the tap but could not. This suggests that whatever the source of the gas it isn't from breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen. I wish I could give you more help. Do gas water heaters have sacrificial rods? If so you could pull them and see if they are being destroyed more rapidly than normal. Could you remove the second water heater from the plumbing and see if that helps? -Roland On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:52:46 -0400, you wrote: ::Roland [and all]: :: ::Did you ever determine the source of the air bubbles in your water system? :: ::I too have a well and softened system, and have air in the lines. It ::appears to be getting worse, progressing from a mere nuisance to having a ::functional impact on the system [eg, the volume of water getting to toilet ::tanks appears lower now, as does the ability to the 'power flush' toilets to ::work...] :: ::In my case the water heater is gas, not electric. There are two heaters ::installed, but IIRC, only one is working. :: ::Any help will be appreciated. :: ::Al Fuller ::al at bighealey dot org ::'62 BT-7 ::'65 BJ-8 ::'85 Rx-7 _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 17 10:44:32 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 066A542E83 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 10:44:32 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wi0-f173.google.com (mail-wi0-f173.google.com [209.85.212.173]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7646D42E47 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 10:41:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f173.google.com with SMTP id hq4so1872255wib.6 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 09:39:54 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=f8PYf7Q6tnid1bVh0IJ2bCJqFdlCjpMu2nJsXn8lcj8=; b=Rvnc0KO594++sXVg4r61g9f8YNfBOa7Ug60VSf5AsbTCmV3c38uLVzJ2f08AIqgMhr qWhbCNfMdiC3DAxDuFZbYZbY1PtBQ3QsJEgef8Wxdw/cPr/Y6ZFjshSYaLtzUhwgdE6B CkUv8w9hzN1UQB5+E20Bdnmftid2ZMziUt38mb0+53dq2oiKluLkmAkn+2lhEoiyeR/K meHgBsHEoAr88nQPiKpe7MnKp/eGbAmDLFNzEALSFcyB+1tqVMadusrLzp/yPS+SSm+E LU18YOQ0INWpWIotatj0OeNahHyK9gHvJ/accxLlqn9vCa+WmgZdeonZuT8z8BOGQR5f 9C3Q== o9mr12128893wiw.16.1363538394113; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 09:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.86.105 with HTTP; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 09:39:53 -0700 (PDT) References: <010901ce2255$ef074a40$cd15dec0$@org> <011f01ce231a$ae895240$0b9bf6c0$@org> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:39:53 -0400 From: Benjamin Zwissler To: Al Fuller Cc: Shop-Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] turn off the bubble machine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net The only source of air I've had in my home plumbing was found to be the water softener. I had a Sears Kenmore and eventually determined that every time it 'recycled' it let some air in the system. I'd get a spitting sink or shower the morning after. As I investigated what to I was told that the Kenmore (and most of the consumer brands like Morton, etc.) use the same 'inexpensive' valve/control. I was told to buy one that uses a Fleck controller which is the same brand that Culligan softeners use. Many softener supply places on the web say the same thing. Being a cheap bastard, I rebuilt the Kenmore control valve assembly and that improved it for a while. Then I put up with the air until the Kenmore quit working for the 3rd time and I internet ordered a softener with a Fleck controller. Its been six months with no air and no issues. Not much time yet, but this unit appears much better made and I know I had to fix something every couple years with the Kenmore. I've been told to expect it to work trouble free for 10 years or more. We'll see. Anyway, I believe I saw in the earlier posts that there was also a softener installed so thought this might be relevant. There's not many others ways to get air into the plumbing. Ben...... On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Al Fuller wrote: > Thanks Roland: > > Yes, gas heaters DO have sacrificial rods, but I agree with Paul that the > rod is unlikely to make the volume of bubbles I'm seeing. > > I will have to go back to square one and try to diagnose it... One thought > is the water table may have dropped down a bit, and the pump is sucking up > some air with the water. > > Al Fuller > al at bighealey dot org > '62 BT-7 > '65 BJ-8 > '85 Rx-7 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Roland Wilhelmy [mailto:rwil@sbcglobal.net] > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 4:50 PM > To: Al Fuller > Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] turn off the bubble machine > > Al (et al.)- > > My air in the water lines problem gradually went away. Now I don't know if > the problem was electrolysis and it stopped cuz there wasn't any more stuff > to eat away or if the air came from some place beside the water supply. > Since I have a service contract on the water heater I am just going to > watch > and wait. I tried to ignite the 'air' coming out of the tap but could not. > This suggests that whatever the source of the gas it isn't from breaking > down water into hydrogen and oxygen. > > I wish I could give you more help. Do gas water heaters have sacrificial > rods? If so you could pull them and see if they are being destroyed more > rapidly than normal. Could you remove the second water heater from the > plumbing and see if that helps? > > -Roland > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:52:46 -0400, you wrote: > > ::Roland [and all]: > :: > ::Did you ever determine the source of the air bubbles in your water > system? > :: > ::I too have a well and softened system, and have air in the lines. It > ::appears to be getting worse, progressing from a mere nuisance to having a > ::functional impact on the system [eg, the volume of water getting to > toilet > ::tanks appears lower now, as does the ability to the 'power flush' toilets > to ::work...] > :: > ::In my case the water heater is gas, not electric. There are two heaters > ::installed, but IIRC, only one is working. > :: > ::Any help will be appreciated. > :: > ::Al Fuller > ::al at bighealey dot org > ::'62 BT-7 > ::'65 BJ-8 > ::'85 Rx-7 > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 17 13:55:54 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 103AD42B19 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:55:54 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.227]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD13A4293E for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:55:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.164]) by out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2013 19:54:13 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (50-47-140-11.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.47.140.11]) by relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id ED8CA5FA2 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 19:54:10 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:54:14 -0700 From: Dave C User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I just got a 2013 Subaru Forester. It apparently uses transponder keys. It looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my wallet are over. So what's the deal with transponder keys? Can Ace Hardware clone them? What's the deal about only being able to "program" a maximum of four keys for the car (as per the manual)? Can I make an unlimited number of clones? Why is everything such a PITA these days? (I feel a rant coming on....) FWIW this car DOES NOT have remote start, although of course it does have remote door lock fobs. Thanks Dave _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 17 18:30:11 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F308B4290E for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:30:10 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plsmtpa09-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa09-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.235]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FA4E40E49 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:30:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([12.162.141.2]) by p3plsmtpa09-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with id CoUX1l00503JK1Y01oUYkK; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:28:32 -0700 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 19:28:23 -0500 From: Pat Horne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Dave, My dodge van uses transponder keys also...I think most cars do these days. A standard brass key can be used to open the door and unlock the steering wheel, but will not start the car. If it does start the car, the fuel pump won't run and it will die right away. I have a brass key taped to the back of my rear license plate just in case I lock my keys in the car. I would use the same type of brass key if I were the outdoors type and didn't want to hike or run with the chance of loosing the transponder key in my pocket. Just lock the transponder key inside the car (hidden) and use the cheap key to open the door. A locksmith or the dealer will need to program the transponder, unless you have at least 2 functioning transponder keys. It may be possible to program the new transponder key yourself, I know I can on my Dodge van. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Dave C > I just got a 2013 Subaru Forester. It apparently uses transponder > keys. It looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my > wallet are over. So what's the deal with transponder keys? Can Ace > Hardware clone them? What's the deal about only being able to > "program" a maximum of four keys for the car (as per the manual)? Can > I make an unlimited number of clones? Why is everything such a PITA > these days? (I feel a rant coming on....) > > FWIW this car DOES NOT have remote start, although of course it does > have remote door lock fobs. > > Thanks > Dave > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat@hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice & Text 5026 FM 2001 Pat@HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 17 19:09:26 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118444283A for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 19:09:26 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from out02.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net (out02.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net [199.224.80.229]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B324284E for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 19:09:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay01.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net ([199.224.80.244]) by out02.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net with ESMTP; 18 Mar 2013 01:07:52 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (50-47-140-11.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.47.140.11]) by relay01.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 920A230C0D0 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 01:07:51 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:07:53 -0700 From: Dave C User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com> <51465FA7.4080000@hornesystemstx.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I hadn't thought of that; good idea. On 3/17/2013 5:28 PM, Pat Horne wrote: > I would use the same type of brass key if I were the outdoors type > and didn't want to hike or run with the chance of loosing the > transponder key in my pocket. Just lock the transponder key inside the > car (hidden) and use the cheap key to open the door. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 17 20:45:17 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7794284E for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:45:17 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from haybaler.sackheads.org (haybaler.sackheads.org [140.186.190.103]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B2A4255D for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:45:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.sackheads.org [127.0.0.1]) by haybaler.sackheads.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 562F1285A2 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from haybaler.sackheads.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (haybaler.sackheads.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YiGRQOqZG96Z for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by haybaler.sackheads.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 2702B285A1; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:43:38 -0400 From: Jimmie Mayfield To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 12:54:14PM -0700, Dave C wrote: > I just got a 2013 Subaru Forester. It apparently uses transponder keys. > It looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my wallet are > over. So what's the deal with transponder keys? Can Ace Hardware clone > them? What's the deal about only being able to "program" a maximum of four > keys for the car (as per the manual)? Can I make an unlimited number of > clones? Why is everything such a PITA these days? (I feel a rant > coming on....) > Over the last 10 years or so, there have been numerous documented hacks of RFID-based ignition systems. Some vehicles don't even need a mechanical key to unlock the steering column. This means someone can steal your vehicle without leaving any damage (which, I would assume, will lead insurance companies to deny claims on the basis that there's no evidence that the vehicle was actually stolen). So, instead of a brass backup key in your wallet or hidden under a body panel, perhaps all you need is a smartphone (or maybe a Raspberry Pi), an RFID transmitter and an appropriate RFID cracking app... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 17 20:58:20 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF55742CE5 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:58:20 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vb0-f50.google.com (mail-vb0-f50.google.com [209.85.212.50]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAD28424B8 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:58:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-vb0-f50.google.com with SMTP id ft2so3130744vbb.9 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 19:56:46 -0700 (PDT) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iczvCoCZeIw/WqK++CYlpHfeioq2OOdbSXN9hHX6Qsg=; b=fUUFH6gt/l/lCLmB/qWIM2egeCIrGIneMBbFbmu6fJlkbTsQJMKTzvRWHUEAiE72H+ pnFUV6IugzWHDfPz2gV0RkLFNmjAjHh+xKbTrO1DMuSgo9WSswFKyR8M3p6Q6u9Nerwg HOkUeCRuIsLR/yApvxBEFDvj3j5xWgQwxEZn9/KkmV84cukghcQ6ccmHn4Ec5pqMYdSn GsRJHbE35vhgyNknLyw8uKz1Ba3CaXamktkvGFYYVXPy6YyYAKFAYg6fyj5kbbTwHIAo ZJnEzCvViB3LapGiYdfHOn3qWGJ6Mv6pBtFeG/klRl8bWiKjr31u/OmUOo9YZ0TUVvvP 084g== c10mr15293212vdu.3.1363575406442; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 19:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i17sm21135980vdj.1.2013.03.17.19.56.45 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 17 Mar 2013 19:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:56:37 -0400 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I'm not ultra-knowledgeable about the keys in general, but the cars I've had have all been slightly different in how they executed them. I've got a Cadillac CTS-V now, and that's the first one that actually made me nervous--there are no holes in the door to manually unlock it with a key. If the transmitter in the fob dies...well, I assume there has to be a failsafe and it's in the owner's manual. Hopefully. As far as I know, most of them have a RFID chip in the key (or some proximity chip). If the key with which you're trying to start the car doesn't signal the car with the chip, either (depending on the make, etc.) the wheel won't unlock, the engine won't crank, the ignition won't energize (so the engine will spin but no spark), the or the fuel pump won't power up. The VW's I've had with this can't be copied anywhere but the VW service center. Not the dealer, the dealer has to send your VIN off to someone who will send them a key. $150 for the key/fob, $175 to program it and it takes a few weeks. Fords were easier. Cadillac was the best--the keys are cheap (though there are several variations so you have to be careful about buying the right one), anyone can cut the physical key, and then you can program it in the car with an OBD-like tool that most places seem to have. I *think* you can even buy them yourself as easily as a code puller (for all I know, the code puller itself does it), but the locksmith I went to charged me $20 to cut the key and program it, so I just paid him. All that to say that there seems to be a lot of variation. Hope the Subie is one of the easy ones. On 3/17/2013 3:54 PM, Dave C wrote: > I just got a 2013 Subaru Forester. It apparently uses transponder > keys. It looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my > wallet are over. So what's the deal with transponder keys? Can Ace > Hardware clone them? What's the deal about only being able to > "program" a maximum of four keys for the car (as per the manual)? Can > I make an unlimited number of clones? Why is everything such a PITA > these days? (I feel a rant coming on....) > > FWIW this car DOES NOT have remote start, although of course it does > have remote door lock fobs. > > Thanks > Dave > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 17 22:28:57 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18EC9424DE for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:28:57 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-lb0-f170.google.com (mail-lb0-f170.google.com [209.85.217.170]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F1842278 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:25:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f170.google.com with SMTP id ge1so4315991lbb.1 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=+7x9ctlXiOOsrfbGHvNKlhU+S1+YDSyav3+dPRbk4UY=; b=eFnf4jcGz84F8xJRbxf3ijgttTG0y6shJfEChgI/gUbZMyp1Nu5h2VIeX5XjlbBT2M KmnOZ7EsIlGYvMAQ+z5SUp3bZ2D4fGSpFC+PxxpaMrNfqmwzaPOMpwB4pYq03bKW0CAI EAvs1xlmSrkkdXtxL0rZwHowa5h8Kx8OYEVx4Q0xHF+put97xNisuOdGfL07l8k8OCv+ 6FpGnEYoLwT+meR3W2G9tAHz8hypF5XupZlq6yRLNFoMjv9GW/QAh48UE9sY8CWKszqW w/JXm5Jh5WJPeHfAIE7DKtii9jJS/e9XTTEEM/XG/drSRRVJpKIrVbnOzuQxCaEhFIr3 Qikg== gq5mr13295214lab.5.1363580644135; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.10.229 with HTTP; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700 (PDT) References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700 From: Shannah Miller To: Dave C Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net In our case, with our two Priuses (Prii?) we sort of have a key: if you press the right switch on the transponder, a tiny almost toy key comes out that will unlock the doors. It does not start the car. We've had transponder keys for at least 10 years. These are the type you leave in your pocket, and simply touch the door handle to get in. You press a button to start the car. So, the transponder is used a lot. Still, we get a lot of warning when there is a transponder problem (low battery) and we just go to the dealer to replace it. You can probably also google for instructions on how to replace the battery yourself. My mechanic showed me and it was a simple process. Shannah On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Dave C wrote: > I just got a 2013 Subaru Forester. It apparently uses transponder keys. > It looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my wallet are > over. So what's the deal with transponder keys? Can Ace Hardware clone > them? What's the deal about only being able to "program" a maximum of four > keys for the car (as per the manual)? Can I make an unlimited number of > clones? Why is everything such a PITA these days? (I feel a rant > coming on....) > > FWIW this car DOES NOT have remote start, although of course it does have > remote door lock fobs. > > Thanks > Dave > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**options/shop-talk/** > shannahquilts@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 17 22:47:29 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A96C4257D for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:47:29 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm16.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm16.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.217]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14CE0403DE for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:47:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.94.237.196] by nm16.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Mar 2013 04:45:53 -0000 Received: from [98.139.244.49] by tm7.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Mar 2013 04:45:53 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp111.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Mar 2013 04:45:53 -0000 s=s1024; t=1363581953; bh=QppnL+9M022Yb8I4BafvJZue/7HXkZ0ozTkfoiXF2JI=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To:X-Mailer:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Antivirus:X-Antivirus-Status; b=bTk9e7ZaC3jiMc1xZkPobO5aILs+qVyNM92Oea18olZeLNK/3YbxCxzpgkEKf3jqz8NZb1jrw0XCPTy3QKsrbZNQtJPkL5W2WNaofzddZPSt+rVqpfWGJ6TDtUOLnU5KNhwr26EUUCKj7N0o/XtEohwin3/dGSERUtoqQHuEj3w= p5Y9msYk1fv8OfU4HSO5VU1jqqulXwIgxeDeWFJgAhybYsCGRW5FABYhla2O TqIj.34CKSf3TxBCelxEUvi1mdYbHIDyqonxNbZ9Xg_Y.N91_DjuMoBMW8QS mwSZ1U8odzQo2Luyz1hykdJkEI9kgx4psOgqKqLTG5ImdFD.u.2DIZlNH9Dk ZwRBQJI9YCceeoFUbHxT7qgdjGWnbv.Fcbre77btRl5Cu_ZDkLjk868ZsXWn IN9fFGI3d8HXAEyvbICOhaVBEQ3CmxXEhOwWRDAvnxUjPiPUwUq_WGQZEVoB zjmSAzxziVds8rrpUa9zkPkUKbnAOZ7TG5qbGEMd9Ozg3wthnCgknzuaQ5Nr ZdqMpyOJCAEJeZ1kOIFS9Lig6rUHuGPyzSkGfW__bXBmGDJUPd8QRzmotaGb QjtBrvjhn0XsHy47m6HrDKFTW5pAZ Received: from localhost (rwil@71.136.228.76 with login) by smtp111.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 2013 21:45:53 -0700 PDT From: Roland Wilhelmy To: Shop-Talk List Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:45:52 -0700 References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Radio Shack stocks batteries for some transponders. You're on your own for opening the cases. -Roland On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700, you wrote: ::In our case, with our two Priuses (Prii?) we sort of have ::a key: if you press the right switch on the transponder, ::a tiny almost toy key comes out that will unlock the doors. ::It does not start the car. :: ::We've had transponder keys for at least 10 years. These ::are the type you leave in your pocket, and simply touch the ::door handle to get in. You press a button to start the car. ::So, the transponder is used a lot. Still, we get a lot of warning ::when there is a transponder problem (low battery) and we just ::go to the dealer to replace it. :: ::You can probably also google for instructions on how to ::replace the battery yourself. My mechanic showed me and it ::was a simple process. :: ::Shannah _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 17 23:17:34 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD19042538 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 23:17:34 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-la0-f47.google.com (mail-la0-f47.google.com [209.85.215.47]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0B9F424C7 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 23:17:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-la0-f47.google.com with SMTP id fj20so5502355lab.6 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:15:59 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=NnmZ142oGFBUgPfZhHYll79aKW0OUi6ku29xeCuwTGA=; b=tlVVpmeTUnDUm2Y52C2kthzjq0e9kbpoSy5stw+yzWDt1RS2G6v5cGZaCbElVitBLc WYeMF9Jq0lMnhWrGxsjeN+nzM5qm9oE/i2fsLdad4NXJVtndd1JGYVvsARvplnnCi4Yi 34S0hPFOc75qPN8y4YljByLWsnLp+0LUSUzeO91Dzwdvh97MaHGhnmD7JkBV6rTtv1Yl O0b/psUIkw2zsFyQQaXrNGifg9Cex/VstZtpVdhfeLSWfj9elKKPE/bAmqlkAsaB06BB X6dRHMZFTExisnYOOW/ma+GA4TstsEtle5bqSDwqjK65vfT2FLkAnFFtS01i8EcUhBPR WaEA== Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.10.229 with HTTP; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:15:59 -0700 (PDT) References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:15:59 -0700 From: Shannah Miller To: Roland Wilhelmy Cc: Shop-Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net For ours, like I said, my mechanic showed me how to replace the batteries. The batteries are CR2032 so I doubt we'll have any issues. Whether or not this is true for all transponder keys, I don't know. I know that there are ones out there that do not open the same as ours. Shannah On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Roland Wilhelmy wrote: > Radio Shack stocks batteries for some transponders. You're on your > own for opening the cases. > > -Roland > > On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700, you wrote: > > ::In our case, with our two Priuses (Prii?) we sort of have > ::a key: if you press the right switch on the transponder, > ::a tiny almost toy key comes out that will unlock the doors. > ::It does not start the car. > :: > ::We've had transponder keys for at least 10 years. These > ::are the type you leave in your pocket, and simply touch the > ::door handle to get in. You press a button to start the car. > ::So, the transponder is used a lot. Still, we get a lot of warning > ::when there is a transponder problem (low battery) and we just > ::go to the dealer to replace it. > :: > ::You can probably also google for instructions on how to > ::replace the battery yourself. My mechanic showed me and it > ::was a simple process. > :: > ::Shannah > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shannahquilts@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 17 23:50:16 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 734ED42537 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 23:50:16 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm15.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm15.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.212.174]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 68F66424A6 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 23:49:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [98.139.212.147] by nm15.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Mar 2013 05:48:15 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.219] by tm4.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Mar 2013 05:48:15 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1028.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Mar 2013 05:48:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 95279 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Mar 2013 05:48:15 -0000 s=s1024; t=1363585695; bh=LHlIdxbi8cpB3uoopO9JLY0+F+6OhbuocsHB3UA3oOM=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=tV0i6TE8hutuLw53iwoeZcaWlD90XoNAx5Pwuu4NDJ3ls8MOkrwIAAVQFFmgJLuUlaRmwSXzDKlJ3jRSwD6Kset7ZTUOT8rZoL74H/N6LNBBn+HtW52XmXEwn9n7vtVcyXiXBl4dDA9pjI7IAQnHbdhzyfo2QWBf47PUPlL66FI= s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Iwdxdip6n61cJupX2j4VsQ+5dAdyPVjQbuOy+oIFnkjMLgXRqm7KeIBNhFDOzqlykysskk/JYMVf4I71LzLMKBSG/E1jqbf5YI+S4Y5ws4OJuWLqAvJXxVyCbbbDUpVfoGgjzUqt55JPSoIa/ZvSmOIYsGgfboNVkFQnIi0GBi0=; npqkKqQiTJKUl6iCl27qT6SyX_URCDdbGM81hYirOtYkRKBWjN.mc_rnVDE3 kSLey.I6aDtUHpE1mPlWKcZdCDh46sgjFRRoTmqCE5EainHxkvEEIUYJ4E9L FsoUoeuytoAFhnTBOX4uPfpM333iA94W_pySrcxUW9BXZo0iaT8IFzZ21sXM 5ElwpKnAGfW0FAdFOP7T_n4JIBoBW1TlfmPV4Aop6c0HkMpuUCT.V61Ry.BJ tX.tEK64LyO.V.I8C6oTCu0SYJHqy3J0IYVwCIyQEBPjjowXEgCYpBd_krX4 ma6yEpAeWUxWGdMIgOT5wtaAYuaxIiLyQ4iAIgIPrrAnQ4GSfTHvXUxz8AQl d2hT2YTzPLOxBXGz1x4A4jvnE6hAlySWza0T4wNmLA08VQaYz2pYWfEtCRIP 5pAkfsmjaTqDoqj.cjJQLzvg_Gp9Q0bOqYO0d5pNBCZY0J76f098- Received: from [65.3.193.114] by web140002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:48:15 PDT SWYgeW91IGdvb2dsZSBoYXJkIGVub3VnaCwgeW91IHNob3VsZCBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIGZpbmQgYm90aCB0aGUgJ2hvdyB0bycgYW5kIHRoZSB0b29scy4oaWYgbmVlZGVkLikgVGhhdCBvbGQgc2F5aW5nLS1XaGVyZSB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIHdpbGwsIHRoZXJlIGlzIGEgd2F5LiA6KQoKVGhlIGtleXMgY2FuIGJlIGN1dCBlbHNld2hlcmUuIFNvbWUgaG9tZSBkZXBvdCwgbG93ZXMgb3IgZXZlbiB3YWxtYXJ0IGNhbiBjdXQgdGhlIGtleXMgZm9yIHlvdS4gRGVhbGVycyB3YW50IHRvIG1ha2UgeW91IHRoaW5rIHRoZXkBMAEBAQE- References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:48:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Battmain To: shoptalk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net If you google hard enough, you should be able to find both the 'how to' and the tools.(if needed.) That old saying--Where there is a will, there is a way. :) The keys can be cut elsewhere. Some home depot, lowes or even walmart can cut the keys for you. Dealers want to make you think they are the only ones that can do it. To bypass the limitation, you *might* need the dealer programmer, but even that is available on eBay. Is it worth the cost vs a trip to the dealer? Only you can decide. Regards, Brian From: Dave C >To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net >Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 3:54 PM >Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys > >I just got a 2013 Subaru Forester. It apparently uses transponder keys. It looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my wallet are over. So what's the deal with transponder keys? Can Ace Hardware clone them? What's the deal about only being able to "program" a maximum of four keys for the car (as per the manual)? Can I make an unlimited number of clones? Why is everything such a PITA these days? (I feel a rant coming on....) > >FWIW this car DOES NOT have remote start, although of course it does have remote door lock fobs. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 00:08:05 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06FC640E9B for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 00:08:05 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-qc0-f170.google.com (mail-qc0-f170.google.com [209.85.216.170]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1401340325 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 00:07:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f170.google.com with SMTP id d42so2636298qca.1 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 23:06:27 -0700 (PDT) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=va2nGTyzzH1SJ9M7652cQE7IIsqhiLGAzeUhycXATEI=; b=bXp14Fl6zhh3XhO0HCqjUXhPqnnYEffz+WmPYx/0bQotzvsheF639e4ZZLn2lyPPDv alPVyAZmMc9hQR/Kf1Y9D6EqKSj1bf4brRRBPGRo35cuiFTC2u1PBaevieev0BkvI6ft yyg6zOBbJi4L2aBoaqOJ/BNLkmKNFnwkusxuwVV2i+UBeWsg8ors002hVZHeKQ5J1cwM kHP7nrK7mWXF8UNGFStxQOHHOexl8oGJtV+/M9rikD1waEnl7tdjJFhyoR59xTHwvb+K ZfA56uT54HnhVEzDCIANLx/+jj2XDXFSwpIhi6Ax8hSuAlC3E5uQNJXsaW3SH5GXXqzs wDMw== df14mr20137470qeb.44.1363586787093; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 23:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g6sm31972977qav.6.2013.03.17.23.06.25 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 17 Mar 2013 23:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 02:06:19 -0400 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I got to be a pro at replacing the batteries on the VAG (VW) fobs. They don't *look* like they want to be opened, but it's easy after the first time and you realize you're not going to break it. Of course, Radio Shack (near me) doesn't carry the battery, but they're common and Amazon Prime has them here in two days. I haven't had to do the GM one yet. I don't remember the Ford ones being a problem--only had to do those once, maybe twice. On 3/18/2013 12:45 AM, Roland Wilhelmy wrote: > Radio Shack stocks batteries for some transponders. You're on your > own for opening the cases. > > -Roland > > On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700, you wrote: > > ::In our case, with our two Priuses (Prii?) we sort of have > ::a key: if you press the right switch on the transponder, > ::a tiny almost toy key comes out that will unlock the doors. > ::It does not start the car. > :: > ::We've had transponder keys for at least 10 years. These > ::are the type you leave in your pocket, and simply touch the > ::door handle to get in. You press a button to start the car. > ::So, the transponder is used a lot. Still, we get a lot of warning > ::when there is a transponder problem (low battery) and we just > ::go to the dealer to replace it. > :: > ::You can probably also google for instructions on how to > ::replace the battery yourself. My mechanic showed me and it > ::was a simple process. > :: _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 03:21:30 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54395424C0 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 03:21:30 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A1F42458 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 03:21:18 -0600 (MDT) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:06:52 -0400 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 03/18/2013 05:06:17, Serialize complete at 03/18/2013 05:06:17 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Dave writes... >I hadn't thought of that; good idea. > > >On 3/17/2013 5:28 PM, Pat Horne wrote: >> I would use the same type of brass key if I were the outdoors type >> and didn't want to hike or run with the chance of loosing the >> transponder key in my pocket. Just lock the transponder key inside the >> car (hidden) and use the cheap key to open the door. Not to hijack this thread or anything, but this is why I installed the true 'keyless' entry into my truck. Instead of using any key or fob to get into the car, I can just lock the key (with the transponder) in the car. Then when I need to get in, I just type in the code to the keypad. It's perfect for this. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 04:04:14 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7509D4249F for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 04:04:14 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-qe0-f54.google.com (mail-qe0-f54.google.com [209.85.128.54]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08DB640E46 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 04:04:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-qe0-f54.google.com with SMTP id i11so3199508qej.13 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 03:02:38 -0700 (PDT) s=google; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=q8T+k34eeuwnmG1gpxr9vKb2YjLJQlxwMbnJRJAgYBA=; b=laXVERkL/mO+URcCKN0hLYBWCVSdC9rEROE+b5qCQDOj15yhtNHwQIbVdNwmuw2v5u EHGebfySF3iPkDKKqqmqd2lAjNLAH7MtKLCvWS9UUKe2MycIqDa3dnuIChywchzH0UGN On5fh2Tw2oS0VJJqv9PpoQs3Z5m0A8XWCJJc4= d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=q8T+k34eeuwnmG1gpxr9vKb2YjLJQlxwMbnJRJAgYBA=; b=OBHtKWocxdZmnhKntcI3QyWXBf+ejiDMxrDLkI3hbV1KiOA6ej8Mw3oxZuyNhm55Fa f2v50Tuhb68XhfpLBZ/vL9qUF4KGo1lPLF5HZSXmVwGrwLDtske3ZSzKWbWPhgkn6zqM H6EgLqEnu8WYtM7djVkz+IGsOt6XD4MUdxewEq465JeXfdAZvfz4Qg11f3ehcVR336w9 WAPEqrQhUOfiYh6fhNUiDhNrePOkDRJ3g92UXE1sOUoTXGRHKMEuv7pvg8oaIC4k7XCN 5az2UYBo+cJ8I/nhmb8RP6ZBXi3yIGYS1KkcZihmOnkfCUfdkckyugK9FiMzYwNDC4Fp COeQ== bx5mr18730442qab.95.1363600958652; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 03:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.13.165 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 03:02:38 -0700 (PDT) References: <514668E9.5060605@frontier.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 06:02:38 -0400 From: Ian McFetridge To: "eric@megageek.com" Cc: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Someone mentioned that the transponder key makes it easier for hi tech thieves to steal cars, which is apparently true with some brands. See link below for a story with CCTV clips of the actual theft. I understand BMW has blocked this method with new software, but this sounds an awful lot like a zero day hack that Microsoft fixes only to have more appear. http://www.bmwblog.com/2012/10/21/video-bmw-m3-stolen-with-obd-key-cloning/ Ian _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 07:53:39 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A3542456 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:53:39 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ea0-f178.google.com (mail-ea0-f178.google.com [209.85.215.178]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E9C840E44 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:53:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-ea0-f178.google.com with SMTP id g14so2590839eak.23 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 06:51:59 -0700 (PDT) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=rCx5R3p1Tvqb3NzhPqodFVc4WTQqfDOiiTINDuDrUNg=; b=Vc8GJeqasaOl97wkRRlezBZdKuDHI5inNxZ5nTWeyhigU357TsLuTFD2QVaLuFLxpf P/wgYJMw03cjDKDbXHrak7P1alr8fO8QigLdQU3gzhcofiT/asu09l4GcsOvRUcOLLF7 H0C2qZoic+exFUvpKsVExWNC7ua3CvOX4bE2/KPDMkNVvJcW1E75VEoq1j7QnZx/n6ui AiCj3rDgG6v/A/ycty1UCj8BVDB/A/B629KKMC2P5FxydWpeuPcLGvLIf7mSm42WJbky psKd0FuIqb1ckS0O2k58PDosUER+jlQaZmb/fhT4WwiKt93DGdqx6WAvzMh6k5BWEtmO 0DIg== j47mr48945496eep.28.1363614719060; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 06:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.15.44.202 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 06:51:58 -0700 (PDT) References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com> <5146AEDB.6020405@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 09:51:58 -0400 From: Mark Andy To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Howdy, Suddenly I care about this, as a new owner of a 2012 GTI... :-) When you replace the battery, do you have to reprogram anything? Mark On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Scott wrote: > I got to be a pro at replacing the batteries on the VAG (VW) fobs. They > don't *look* like they want to be opened, but it's easy after the first time > and you realize you're not going to break it. > > Of course, Radio Shack (near me) doesn't carry the battery, but they're > common and Amazon Prime has them here in two days. > > I haven't had to do the GM one yet. I don't remember the Ford ones being a > problem--only had to do those once, maybe twice. > > On 3/18/2013 12:45 AM, Roland Wilhelmy wrote: >> >> Radio Shack stocks batteries for some transponders. You're on your >> own for opening the cases. >> >> -Roland >> >> On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700, you wrote: >> >> ::In our case, with our two Priuses (Prii?) we sort of have >> ::a key: if you press the right switch on the transponder, >> ::a tiny almost toy key comes out that will unlock the doors. >> ::It does not start the car. >> :: >> ::We've had transponder keys for at least 10 years. These >> ::are the type you leave in your pocket, and simply touch the >> ::door handle to get in. You press a button to start the car. >> ::So, the transponder is used a lot. Still, we get a lot of warning >> ::when there is a transponder problem (low battery) and we just >> ::go to the dealer to replace it. >> :: >> ::You can probably also google for instructions on how to >> ::replace the battery yourself. My mechanic showed me and it >> ::was a simple process. >> :: > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka@maracing.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 07:54:33 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E234424C0 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:54:33 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ea0-f172.google.com (mail-ea0-f172.google.com [209.85.215.172]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6D240E4F for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:54:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-ea0-f172.google.com with SMTP id d10so2602045eaj.31 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 06:52:58 -0700 (PDT) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=Xrz/dBbolGp9OygJ0GCzK+GltUcm9pHwcSPglAOg9ZY=; b=XOTnvsTL9/kZ1cZkTr6pV2C66DMYd3DvupMRnKp708SVQs9s33c0gygIcuEiW9ILW2 rF69CjsgbB54hBo798wjpBYAU2CEseVVaRSLDf3znWyI23GZRFwDM7vmTAs/n3evhTxq JDx95D14fIxF1VURYPoe17andkqebwGiTBJzCD7FP2Aowy9wgeYSsrKJlUNFtt4j/6gT U/Rs7oIAdHxHdvMewLySXEpE+p9JAwbHq3jjuIyA8+yi9h/tp5aiHgxQEuCVO8njIGbV esfx7Hl7LecnizWIFT1acF5InoPFFtRImv+tyguxLC9zl3trjOrqw46ZiFG8Bd1FtotF r6gw== f45mr48763181eeu.46.1363614778376; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 06:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.15.44.202 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 06:52:58 -0700 (PDT) References: <514668E9.5060605@frontier.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 09:52:58 -0400 From: Mark Andy To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Howdy, A lot of you folks have a whole lot more faith in "batteries that don't go dead" than I do. :-) Mark On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 5:06 AM, wrote: > Dave writes... > >>I hadn't thought of that; good idea. >> >> >>On 3/17/2013 5:28 PM, Pat Horne wrote: >>> I would use the same type of brass key if I were the outdoors type >>> and didn't want to hike or run with the chance of loosing the >>> transponder key in my pocket. Just lock the transponder key inside the >>> car (hidden) and use the cheap key to open the door. > > > Not to hijack this thread or anything, but this is why I installed the > true 'keyless' entry into my truck. Instead of using any key or fob to > get into the car, I can just lock the key (with the transponder) in the > car. Then when I need to get in, I just type in the code to the keypad. > It's perfect for this. > > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka@maracing.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 08:06:22 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AFA7424E4 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:06:22 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ia0-f171.google.com (mail-ia0-f171.google.com [209.85.210.171]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E93540E44 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:02:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-ia0-f171.google.com with SMTP id z13so5305008iaz.16 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:01:15 -0700 (PDT) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=JMH6Udg11+nVO82LbiabbMuAWtylvRofhHZNVH2emes=; b=OmVXCZaGZIRoCmcNFtP5YPimgW3BEmJ6oHvPco8sbEQqr0/A9Iel1b5IzWyzpAOi+5 ewNL8gfZFnU7JIDp55jcLRTqF0x97iny8ZbF/fAqE2sZHzaTgsEcWKOknvNJ9lUEeoye VrW5scyht4OSQbMR1+QmDSy8ih44vwNytYh1dfGaqepsGjlQsJSA97XbB0diiHVXRoou xW0JHRoVVmVHJ6UifQen1JgeV8Z4julB82sxsj1cWWZqRrOiohIxkOg7Cg+zAchN2Rxo PVpsAtL9dlUei8Uym7HUKgnHZVlcocSxbaoOmyZUylrlwD5G1O6GKnWsBK00MBMRd8rz /aLQ== xl7mr6234217igb.89.1363615274958; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.102.68 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:01:14 -0700 (PDT) References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com> <5146AEDB.6020405@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:01:14 -0400 From: Paul Parkanzky To: Mark Andy Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mark, I've had a number of VW's and Audi's and the batteries in those switchblade keys last a really long time. When you change them, you don't typically have to do any additional programming or anything. Programming comes when you get a new fob that was not previously associated with your car. I think people are confusing terms here. The transponder keys are just normal keys that you put into the ignition. They are separate from the keyless entry feature in your car. They have an added security feature that requires a transponder chip to be near the ignition before the car will be allowed to start. These have been on GM cars for at least a decade. I now have a car with the keyless ignition. That is the type of key that allows you to unlock your door and start the car with the key in your pocket. The transponder key doesn't require any kind of battery to work. The keyless ignition fob does require a battery and it goes through them more quickly than a traditional keyless entry remote. -Paul On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 9:51 AM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > Suddenly I care about this, as a new owner of a 2012 GTI... :-) > > When you replace the battery, do you have to reprogram anything? > > Mark _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 08:11:37 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8365E40E9C for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:11:37 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ob0-f173.google.com (mail-ob0-f173.google.com [209.85.214.173]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E969D40042 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:11:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f173.google.com with SMTP id dn14so5389717obc.18 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:10:01 -0700 (PDT) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=i6ldwqXEmVQXSmCn6D6EjuMnQhnwiio/mYiInpwcPKU=; b=jA8s+trKNdmyXRWAW0ppbyLzJ2PmN00+K7GqszkRNP9/kVfbIE4w+juARAmWouoFht ION0OAKoOglylHliCkO4i4fARVjO78Gwnw25CfHxRxpx06WXRIF6SZ3lUeCA1rAIepZn m5g6tzdUHAheMaCxXyp/LUOhyVw5WOz1EgK0ECRAVfe3+jJ7tazc1LoIvs8ceHZIUt4S Hi5ea5J0cmjUxbTv0dHhg5SCC6sYORhxGIcIxKOEq5gC3w66IQdfjeRbvurbDLvvf/w8 oUJFSiJZsWHCc/j56SkhWLCqvWqpIsDM0VIKA6c+znCgx/cSvU5qsjCqVqX69Y290SdD Jdag== y9mr6569712oeb.88.1363615801804; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ri1sm6393145obc.12.2013.03.18.07.10.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:09:53 -0400 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com> <5146AEDB.6020405@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Nope, just pull the key off the end of the fob assembly, split the transmitter part of the assembly, and swap the battery. If you ever have to to it, let me know. It's a two-minute job, no tools. Have I mentioned recently how much I love working on German cars? Almost like someone thought about it when they were designing the car. On 3/18/2013 9:51 AM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > Suddenly I care about this, as a new owner of a 2012 GTI... :-) > > When you replace the battery, do you have to reprogram anything? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 20:41:58 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD1BF403D8 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:41:58 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.227]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ACC640066 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:41:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.167]) by out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net with ESMTP; 19 Mar 2013 02:40:14 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (50-47-140-11.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.47.140.11]) by relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 24F9017CF9 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 02:40:11 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:40:12 -0700 From: Dave C User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 CC: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com> <5146AEDB.6020405@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 3/18/2013 7:01 AM, Paul Parkanzky wrote: > I think people are confusing terms here. The transponder keys are just > normal keys that you put into the ignition. They are separate from the > keyless entry feature in your car. They have an added security feature > that requires a transponder chip to be near the ignition before the car > will be allowed to start. Which brings us back to my original post. I have spent some more time with Google and reading your posts (thanks for the responses) and think I have it figured out. First of all, yes, I am just concerned with the keys, not the keyless entry fob. The transponder keys apparently have one of various types of RFID chip embedded in them. The car is programmed to recognize that particular chip and won't start if the chip is not accompanying the key. You can get a plain mechanical key that will unlock the door, but it won't start the car without the chip embedded in it. According to Subaru you can only program the car to recognize four keys. They get about $150 for a new key. I talked to a locksmith today, and they can "clone" one of my existing keys for about $75 or so, and since it's a clone, the car shouldn't know the difference and it won't "count" against the total of four. Since RFID chips are cheap and very common, I can only assume the dealers charge so much to for the keys and programming just because they can make a lot of money on it. The locksmiths are doing OK, too, as it looks like the wholesale price on clone keys is about $25 or so. In the short term I am just going to get a plain flat mechanical key for my wallet in case I lock the keys in the car. Thanks again. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 20:45:10 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26ED640439 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:45:10 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from col0-omc2-s2.col0.hotmail.com (col0-omc2-s2.col0.hotmail.com [65.55.34.76]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9447C40066 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:45:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from COL002-W86 ([65.55.34.71]) by col0-omc2-s2.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:43:32 -0700 From: Jim Stone To: shop talk Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:43:31 -0500 FILETIME=[8B70DDA0:01CE244B] Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net The plastic catch that holds the door closed on my refrigerator recently broke. While it isn't necessary to the question I am about to ask, there are photos and more details about the broken part here: http://forum.appliancepartspros.com/refrigerator-freezer-repair/519815-broken -door-catch.html#post803233 GE, in their infinite wisdom, doesn't sell a replacement catch alone; you have to buy a new door seal. Nor to they even sell just one side alone (it is a side-by-side fridge); you have to buy both sides for $225! That is a heck of a lot of money to spend for a small piece of plastic. So, I would like to try to repair this one before shelling out for the replacement pieces. I have never had much luck gluing plastic, even with glues said to be made for it. And, the fact that this piece is under stress every time the door opens and closes (let alone the fact that it failed under such stress) doesn't give me much confidence in glue. Still, if there is a glue or solvent that someone here knows of and thinks I should try, I am all ears. My other option is to purchase a plastic welder, something like this: http://www.harborfreight.com/plastic-welding-kit-with-adjustable-temperature- 96464.html I have been interested in buying one of these for a while, and buying a $50 tool I can use again vs. paying $225 is a no-brainer, if this has a good chance of working. Does anyone here have experience with one of these or a competitor's product? What are the odds of my being able to join the two pieces together well enough to stand up to repeated openings and closings? Thanks. Jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 20:56:53 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9CC40549 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:56:53 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from st11p02mm-asmtp002.mac.com (st11p02mm-asmtp002.mac.com [17.172.220.237]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657B840540 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:56:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.25] (75-175-70-220.ptld.qwest.net [75.175.70.220]) by st11p02mm-asmtp002.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01(7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Jan 3 2012)) with ESMTPSA id <0MJW00HOF02USV20@st11p02mm-asmtp002.mac.com> for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 02:54:32 +0000 (GMT) engine=2.50.10432:5.10.8626,1.0.431,0.0.0000 definitions=2013-03-19_01:2013-03-18,2013-03-19,1970-01-01 signatures=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1302030000 definitions=main-1303180232 From: Darrell Walker Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:54:30 -0700 References: To: Jim Stone Cc: shop talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wow, I didn't know there was such a thing as a plastic welder! Is there any way to incorporate some metal reinforcement? That's what I usually try to do when fixing something plastic. -Darrell _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 21:07:58 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C10E54290F for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:07:58 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D4E403F1 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:07:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:06:15 -0700 id 00000000002800C9.000000005147D627.00000FF3 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:05:45 -0700 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > or a competitor's product? What are the odds of my being able to join the two > pieces together well enough to stand up to repeated openings and closings? With plastic, whether you're talking about heat-fusing or solvent-welding or something like an epoxy, it's ALL about what kind of plastic it is. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 21:16:08 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 263CD40437 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:16:08 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.227]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E70403F7 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:16:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from omta17.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.73]) by qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id CzVy1l0011afHeLACFEVRB; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 03:14:29 +0000 Received: from [10.0.0.3] ([67.164.21.216]) by omta17.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id DFEU1l00M4fjmw38dFEUkJ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 03:14:29 +0000 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:14:26 -0700 From: Bob Spidell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <84A5964A-C47D-428F-B765-2EE91620F8A7@mac.com> s=q20121106; t=1363662869; bh=HY7ViZieafb88BzZSZlkBw3YniRLcug+0sUyO1AtYBI=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=PHcp+/xwpsV+PtuJ8eDxIfVqYQxFtiB1HJpWbfDUPyW3B7f54uAzuCJ07Tq0+EAev A/CCwuHgJvU07Ot8/qf3SYtjahndaM44J19hqE8jJFAo76w9YN+bONbOnwNlPRH3ag Jur5XpL3O32jBX1yAOOWImDhilJjHRnpG0IN/RrMUNh6gCVAs28mptNkH3qoaB8/+I GNSj4920lP0/CHG7xj7LB5D4V/Zu9pNCF0INX1T6xfAwMce4yFoVMLKKB1fllcPNMy 4v6dLl8REl71U/2B8o9Fe5EtUtmAEpu53Lms1t5/oesFUmkRpw5jMT8mew3yJN0gBJ oV/LwjE8jc37w== Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net re: 'I didn't know there was such a thing as a plastic welder! ' You've never heard of a PIG welder? bs On 3/18/2013 7:54 PM, Darrell Walker wrote: > Wow, I didn't know there was such a thing as a plastic welder! > > Is there any way to incorporate some metal reinforcement? That's what I > usually try to do when fixing something plastic. > > -Darrell > _______________________________________________ > > > -- ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell@comcast.net ******************************************************************* _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 21:44:58 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC0B40EB0 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:44:58 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (lan23.xxiii.com [24.246.172.99]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 012604052E for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:44:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (host-173-246-195-102.morrisbb.com [173.246.195.102] (may be forged)) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2J3hI4f048109 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:43:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:43:11 -0400 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 3/18/2013 10:43 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > The plastic catch that holds the door closed on my refrigerator recently > broke. While it isn't necessary to the question I am about to ask, there are > photos and more details about the broken part here: Sorry, but it won't let you view pix unless registered & logged in. > GE, in their infinite wisdom, doesn't sell a replacement catch alone; you have > to buy a new door seal. Nor to they even sell just one side alone (it is a Might be able to find a new or partial replacement on ebay. To glue or weld, you need to know what kind of plastic it is. There are lots of guides on the 'net but some require destructive testing. Solvent cements work real well with a compatible plastic. Welding won't work if it's a thermoset plastic (one that will burn, not melt when heated.) There are also services on ebay and elsewhere that will crank out 3D printed parts cheaply, given a CAD file of what you need. -wc _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 21:45:39 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F4042884 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:45:39 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.avvanta.com (smtp61.avvanta.com [206.124.128.61]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C8E94052E for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:45:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.avvanta.com (localhost.rowlf.p [127.0.0.1]) by mail.avvanta.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9558593C44 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AMDHexaCore.racertodd.com (50-46-114-197.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.46.114.197]) by mail.avvanta.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 585A193C13 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:43:03 -0700 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net From: Todd Walke References: localhost.scooter.p.blarg.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Darrell wrote: >Wow, I didn't know there was such a thing as a plastic welder! Urethane Supply (www.urethanesupply.com/) carries supplies to repair most types of plastic. Under the "How To" section they have info on how to identity and repair the various types of plastic. Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 276,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 396,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 18 22:46:02 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E900442868 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 22:46:01 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D7CA40521 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 22:45:53 -0600 (MDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Is2GxlCUp86KXIk6Vy8/7dDRbzDf/9yzuKaa38PC56hrfErWhIW1S47CiO5Ad41A; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.129.25.88] (helo=[192.168.1.3]) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1UHoPM-0002k7-7Q; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 00:44:20 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:43:31 -0700 From: Brian Kemp User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 To: Jim Stone References: Cc: shop talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Jim - It all depends on the type of plastic. See if you can find the recycle triangle with a number in it on the back of a similar piece then look that up. If it is a clean break and a plastic that responds well to solvent type glue, that is probably the best bet. As to plastic welding, you may be able to use a soldering iron. I've used a 30W for fine stuff and a 100W pencil iron with a flat tip for bigger things. If you want a more precise temperature control, use a dimmer controlled outlet. If you go this route, you are going to need donor plastic and then do some cleanup. I would guess that this is not a match for your application. If you do try welding/melting, try a scrap of similar plastic first, maybe from a broken toy. Some melts nice. Other plastic just turns into hard brittle goo. Melting did work well for my plastic gas tank on my B&S lawn mower gas tank. Mowing around a tree, I hit a branch in the wrong place and cracked the tank. I drained it, rinsed it with water, then let it dry in the sun. It was black plastic, a little flexible and slightly slippery. I forget the number now. I had some similar plastic from the packing of kids toys that I used as my solder or welding rod equivalent. I heated up the plastic and made a mound then blended it all together. This was much more economical than the $75 I was quoted for a replacement tank from a local vendor. When you finish, wipe the iron tip with a wet sponge, then clean it with flux and re-tin it and it will be like before. You might also want to call some appliance repair places in your area. If you get lucky, you might find a guy that collects used parts and sell you one cheap. I was able to go this route for some spa cover clips. A local service place always cut the clips off old covers because they get broken fairly often. Brian On 3/18/2013 7:43 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > The plastic catch that holds the door closed on my refrigerator recently > broke. While it isn't necessary to the question I am about to ask, there are > photos and more details about the broken part here: > http://forum.appliancepartspros.com/refrigerator-freezer-repair/519815-broken > -door-catch.html#post803233 > > GE, in their infinite wisdom, doesn't sell a replacement catch alone; you have > to buy a new door seal. Nor to they even sell just one side alone (it is a > side-by-side fridge); you have to buy both sides for $225! That is a heck of > a lot of money to spend for a small piece of plastic. So, I would like to try > to repair this one before shelling out for the replacement pieces. I have > never had much luck gluing plastic, even with glues said to be made for it. > And, the fact that this piece is under stress every time the door opens and > closes (let alone the fact that it failed under such stress) doesn't give me > much confidence in glue. Still, if there is a glue or solvent that someone > here knows of and thinks I should try, I am all ears. > > My other option is to purchase a plastic welder, something like this: > http://www.harborfreight.com/plastic-welding-kit-with-adjustable-temperature- > 96464.html I have been interested in buying one of these for a while, and > buying a $50 tool I can use again vs. paying $225 is a no-brainer, if this has > a good chance of working. Does anyone here have experience with one of these > or a competitor's product? What are the odds of my being able to join the two > pieces together well enough to stand up to repeated openings and closings? > > Thanks. > Jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Mar 19 06:51:59 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34534287E for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 06:51:59 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D544225B for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 06:51:47 -0600 (MDT) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:36:36 -0400 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 03/19/2013 08:36:39, Serialize complete at 03/19/2013 08:36:39 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Jim, If you have a place close to you (there are a few around, I know of one in NYC) but you can go in to a hacker space and use their 3D printer. They print in ABS and PLA plastics. I'm sure for a few "club Montes" (the unofficial soda of hacker spaces) you can even get a regular there scan it and print it for you. They can even change the design to make it beefier. (and you can get a copy of the file to print out more later. I'm thinking of buying a 3D printer myself, but I can't find one that meets my needs. Failing that, I'd love to hear how that plastic welder works. I've seen it many times and have been tempted myself. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Mar 22 06:33:02 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C929740E11 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 06:33:02 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from col0-omc4-s2.col0.hotmail.com (col0-omc4-s2.col0.hotmail.com [65.55.34.204]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92D9D4051C for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 06:32:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from COL002-W19 ([65.55.34.199]) by col0-omc4-s2.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 22 Mar 2013 05:30:18 -0700 From: Jim Stone To: "eric@megageek.com" , shop talk Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 07:30:18 -0500 References: , FILETIME=[03463CD0:01CE26F9] Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thanks guys. Sorry for the delay; I have been traveling. Some good ideas in here. I really like the idea of using a 3D printer; that would be very cool and I would love to be able to say I did that. I won't know if that is possible until I remove the seal and see if I can take the broken piece out and then put the seal back on. Otherwise, I will need to repair it and put it back on before the food in the fridge spoils. In the meantime, I am keeping an eye on eBay. Since this seems to be a weak point on GE side by sides and GE makes you buy a pair of them, it is possible that someone else will be selling a single side. And, I did discover an eBay appliance parts store that sells the gaskets for $185, which is about $40 less than I had previously found. I did buy the HF plastic welder since I had a coupon that was going to expire before I get home. I will report back if I do decide to keep it and give it a try. > To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net > From: eric@megageek.com > Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:36:36 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue? > > Jim, > > If you have a place close to you (there are a few around, I know of one in > NYC) but you can go in to a hacker space and use their 3D printer. They > print in ABS and PLA plastics. > > I'm sure for a few "club Montes" (the unofficial soda of hacker spaces) > you can even get a regular there scan it and print it for you. They can > even change the design to make it beefier. (and you can get a copy of the > file to print out more later. > > I'm thinking of buying a 3D printer myself, but I can't find one that > meets my needs. > > Failing that, I'd love to hear how that plastic welder works. I've seen > it many times and have been tempted myself. > > > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99@msn.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Mar 22 07:03:31 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0967E40E11 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 07:03:31 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com (mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com [209.235.152.148]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1843940526 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 06:59:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from EricJRussellPC (99-194-27-8.dyn.centurytel.net [99.194.27.8]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id r2MCvFE4001616 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 12:57:16 GMT From: "Eric J Russell" To: "shop talk" References: , Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 08:56:14 -0400 a=S_Peo7LoC_QA:10 a=P2oOn6vrs4wA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:17 a=gRDYRtYdAAAA:8 a=lQNyvxNZnh5qlu1s0gsA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:117 reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have used Plastex http://www.plastex.net/ to repair many plastic items. It has worked well for broken/missing attachment tabs on automobile consoles & motorcycle fairings. Eric Russell Mebane, NC _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Mar 22 10:57:55 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7EE40395 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 10:57:55 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from wavecable.net (mail2.wavecable.net [76.14.0.244]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9E774006E for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 10:57:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [76.14.92.247] (HELO [10.0.1.10]) by wavecable.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 592895405; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 09:55:56 -0700 References: From: Fred Katz Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 09:55:55 -0700 To: Jim Stone Cc: shop talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have had great success using a product called Mxbon 105, along with baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to repair many plastic products. It's basically super glue, or cyanoacrylate, but super refined and much more powerful than regular super glue. It can be bought online, like at Amazon and hardware outlets. You spread a bit of baking soda powder in the crack, and then apply a drop of super glue. It chemically alters the baking soda into becoming a plastic polymer that bonds with your damaged plastic item. (It chemically reacts in the presence of water vapor in the air and on the surface; no need to place water there, it's invisible and always present). I've also recreated missing portions of plastic in tools by filling in the area with baking soda and applying this technique (do it outside as toxic fumes are created with large portions, and wear gloves and goggles). After a few seconds, you can sand the new plastic bond smooth. The finished product is a polymer bond far stronger than epoxy or glue. I've had even better results with sodium carbonate. You bake bicarbonate of soda (baking powder) for 30 minutes on a cookie sheet, and it chemically transforms to sodium carbonate (drives out the oxygen). Mxbon 105 is a fast acting super glue. Mxbon 424 is a slower acting super glue to give more time to position the pieces. Fred On Mar 18, 2013, at 7:43 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > The plastic catch that holds the door closed on my refrigerator recently > broke. While it isn't necessary to the question I am about to ask, there are > photos and more details about the broken part here: > http://forum.appliancepartspros.com/refrigerator-freezer-repair/519815-broken > -door-catch.html#post803233 _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Mar 22 19:51:22 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F03434254E for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 19:51:21 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from col0-omc2-s6.col0.hotmail.com (col0-omc2-s6.col0.hotmail.com [65.55.34.80]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE43403FB for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 19:47:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from COL002-W18 ([65.55.34.73]) by col0-omc2-s6.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 22 Mar 2013 18:45:29 -0700 From: Jim Stone To: shop talk Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 20:45:29 -0500 References: , <13BBB300-FE39-4B5A-A579-17B69A64C173@astound.net> FILETIME=[198CE830:01CE2768] Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thanks guys. Some really interesting options here. I had not heard of either MxBon or Plastex and both sound really intriguing. After reading up on both, I just ordered a starter kit of Plastex. I may buy the MxBon later, if only just to keep it around, but thought Id wait since it seems to have a shelf life. Depending on what I find when I remove the gasket, I may try casting a new part or piece of the part, or just try bonding the two pieces together. Once it is all together I am also thinking about embedding something like a small brad across the break to reinforce it, but Ill take it one step at a time. Now, I have to decide whether to keep the plastic welder or return it. And, if all else fails, AppliancePartsPros is where I got the $225 price for the new gasket. More to follow. Jim > CC: shop-talk@autox.team.net > From: roadster@astound.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue? > Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 09:55:55 -0700 > To: jandkstone99@msn.com > > I have had great success using a product called Mxbon 105, along with baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to repair many plastic products. It's basically super glue, or cyanoacrylate, but super refined and much more powerful than regular super glue. It can be bought online, like at Amazon and hardware outlets. > > You spread a bit of baking soda powder in the crack, and then apply a drop of super glue. It chemically alters the baking soda into becoming a plastic polymer that bonds with your damaged plastic item. (It chemically reacts in the presence of water vapor in the air and on the surface; no need to place water there, it's invisible and always present). I've also recreated missing portions of plastic in tools by filling in the area with baking soda and applying this technique (do it outside as toxic fumes are created with large portions, and wear gloves and goggles). > > After a few seconds, you can sand the new plastic bond smooth. The finished product is a polymer bond far stronger than epoxy or glue. I've had even better results with sodium carbonate. You bake bicarbonate of soda (baking powder) for 30 minutes on a cookie sheet, and it chemically transforms to sodium carbonate (drives out the oxygen). Mxbon 105 is a fast acting super glue. Mxbon 424 is a slower acting super glue to give more time to position the pieces. > > Fred > > On Mar 18, 2013, at 7:43 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > > > The plastic catch that holds the door closed on my refrigerator recently > > broke. While it isn't necessary to the question I am about to ask, there are > > photos and more details about the broken part here: > > http://forum.appliancepartspros.com/refrigerator-freezer-repair/519815-broken > > -door-catch.html#post803233 > > > _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 24 09:52:59 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8C642585 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:52:59 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from blu0-omc2-s25.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc2-s25.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.100]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C714009A for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:52:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from BLU0-SMTP336 ([65.55.111.72]) by blu0-omc2-s25.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sun, 24 Mar 2013 08:50:48 -0700 Received: from [10.118.195.81] ([198.228.192.8]) by BLU0-SMTP336.phx.gbl over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sun, 24 Mar 2013 08:50:42 -0700 From: Jim and Kathy Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 11:50:26 -0400 To: shop-talk FILETIME=[596EB4C0:01CE28A7] Subject: [Shop-talk] Strange electrical house issues Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have a very strange electrical problem at my vacation home and am hoping someone here has an idea of what could be going on. I appologize in advance for the length of this explanation but don't think I can describe it in fewer words. All I wanted to do this morning was replace a couple of old (probably from the 60's) outlets. I removed the outlet from one box and found something strange. There were two sets of wires in the box, one two wire and one three. (The house was built in the late 50's and uses greenfield cable with the ground coming from the box.). The two black wires were connected and the right side of the outlet had one white wire connected and the left side had one white and one red. The outlet was an old non-grounded one, so there was no way to tell which side was supposed to be hot. But, my simple electrical tester showed the side with the two wires was the hot side; that is, both completed a circuit when touched to the single white wire or the box. What may be significant that didn't register to begin with is the fact that both wires (the red and the white on the left side) were hot. It was all strange but I replaced the outlet with a new one, wiring it exactly as before. Everything tested fine, so I was about to move to the second outlet when we realized that about half of the circuits in the house were out. All circuit breakers looked fine. I then remembered that the two left wires were both hot, meaning it wasn't a case where one cable was going in and the other going out. It occurred to me the original outlet might have been adapted for two circuits, although there were no tabs to break off as in a modern receptacle. I broke the left side tab off of the new outlet but nothing changed. At one point, I also turned off and on the main and each circuit breaker but nothing changed. Then, several circuits came back on, but at what appeared to be half power. I don't have a meter here but the lights were very dim. I tested a GFCI that was on the same circuit and it was not working, at least until I got a shock and realized that the white wire was open but black was still hot. I got the shock by touching the ground and black at the same time. OK, last bit of diagnostic info. I dismantled the old original outlet and it is not designed for separate circuits. The two wires on the left were being tied together, exactly as they had been when I first replaced it with a modern one. Everything worked just fine before I replaced the outlet. The only problem was that it was worn and didn't hold a plug in very tight. Now I don't know what the heck is going on or what I may have done wrong. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks. Jim Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 24 14:55:48 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29157424C0 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 14:55:48 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2864240560 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 14:55:37 -0600 (MDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=SXN25IXNGguRtZDW7/NVkno8GKGZsw4t+4Mi+etDgDh68SSc4knCa6W59H2apuLG; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.129.25.88] (helo=[192.168.1.3]) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1UJrv7-0001z5-1c; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 16:53:37 -0400 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 13:52:50 -0700 From: Brian Kemp User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 To: Jim and Kathy References: Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Strange electrical house issues Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Jim - It sounds like a circuit diagram is necessary to find out what wire is doing what. Some ideas to help (remembering that electricity is dangerous and you need to use appropriate caution): - Make a diagram of the outlet including each connection so you can always put it back together the old way - Turn off the circuit and disconnect each wire. Verify each wire has no power. A non-contact voltage tester is helpful. Put a wire nut on each bare end for safety. - Turn the power back on and see which wire is the hot supply. If that is the two wire cable, you found your neutral, which should be the other wire in the pair. If it is the three wire cable (black or red), that white wire is probably your neutral and the other wire (red or black) may be a second hot wire on another circuit. - You already figured out some of the outlets after this on in the circuit. I'd go to the next closest outlet and make the same diagram in that outlet. Hopefully, it will make more sense with a single pair in and out. With the power off and verified with a voltage tester, put a continuity checker on the wire pair in one outlet box and touch the wires in the second box to verify you have the wire pair identified. This process should help further figure out the wiring in the home. Other things that may help: - disconnected wires, such as when the circuit breaker is off or when the neutral is disconnected my indicate an odd voltage with a digital volt meter. Put a load on the wires and the voltage will go to near zero. I used a lamp socket with a light bulb. - if you have metal boxes, they may be wired with a ground wire independent of the electrical supply wires. This was the case in my my first and my current houses. - three conductor wire may have been used to run two circuits with a single wire pair. Two hots share a neutral. I don't think this is code anymore and don't recommend it. Part of the theory is that if they are out a phase (different lines of the 220 supply), the single neutral can handle it. - The red may be a switched circuit, where perhaps there was a wall switch that controlled the outlet. If you have any wall switches, check them and see if they come into play in your circuit diagram. At some point, an overhead light may have been connected to the wall switch and the old wires to the outlet were just left behind. - Some electricians follow a pattern on supply into the top of the box and next outlet out the bottom of the box (I may have that backwards) for wall outlets, so if you are mapping multiple outlets, that may make things easier. Good luck with the project. Taking the time to do the full circuit diagram in my 1950 built house was critical to understanding the problems I was having and figuring out a way to fix issues, such as every outlet but one in the original portion of the house including the refrigerator on the same circuit. I ended up rewiring all those outlets into four circuits and ended the common computer lockups or beeping UPS warnings. Brian On 3/24/2013 8:50 AM, Jim and Kathy wrote: > I have a very strange electrical problem at my vacation home and am hoping > someone here has an idea of what could be going on. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Mar 24 16:11:16 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D39D4255D for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 16:11:16 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from col0-omc2-s1.col0.hotmail.com (col0-omc2-s1.col0.hotmail.com [65.55.34.75]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD674055D for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 16:06:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from COL401-EAS71 ([65.55.34.71]) by col0-omc2-s1.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sun, 24 Mar 2013 15:04:49 -0700 References: <514F67A2.8070005@earthlink.net> From: Jim Stone Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 18:04:44 -0400 To: Brian Kemp FILETIME=[9AB75CA0:01CE28DB] Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Strange electrical house issues Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thanks guys. I had to leave the house right after posting this but I will spend more time on it tomorrow and report back. The 'switched outlet' might be a winner, as a ceiling fan was added to the room at one point and there are two separate light switches, one for the fan and one for the light. The thing that confuses me (besides the white/black part) is the fact that both the red and white were hot. Wiring them together should have produced 240 volts and fried something, unless they were somehow now redundant and both connected to the same circuit. More to follow, I'm an sure! Jim Sent from my iPhone On Mar 24, 2013, at 4:53 PM, "Brian Kemp" wrote: > Jim - It sounds like a circuit diagram is necessary to find out what wire is doing what. > > Some ideas to help (remembering that electricity is dangerous and you need to use appropriate caution): > > - Make a diagram of the outlet including each connection so you can always put it back together the old way > > - Turn off the circuit and disconnect each wire. Verify each wire has no power. A non-contact voltage tester is helpful. Put a wire nut on each bare end for safety. > > - Turn the power back on and see which wire is the hot supply. If that is the two wire cable, you found your neutral, which should be the other wire in the pair. If it is the three wire cable (black or red), that white wire is probably your neutral and the other wire (red or black) may be a second hot wire on another circuit. > > - You already figured out some of the outlets after this on in the circuit. I'd go to the next closest outlet and make the same diagram in that outlet. Hopefully, it will make more sense with a single pair in and out. With the power off and verified with a voltage tester, put a continuity checker on the wire pair in one outlet box and touch the wires in the second box to verify you have the wire pair identified. This process should help further figure out the wiring in the home. > > Other things that may help: > > - disconnected wires, such as when the circuit breaker is off or when the neutral is disconnected my indicate an odd voltage with a digital volt meter. Put a load on the wires and the voltage will go to near zero. I used a lamp socket with a light bulb. > > - if you have metal boxes, they may be wired with a ground wire independent of the electrical supply wires. This was the case in my my first and my current houses. > > - three conductor wire may have been used to run two circuits with a single wire pair. Two hots share a neutral. I don't think this is code anymore and don't recommend it. Part of the theory is that if they are out a phase (different lines of the 220 supply), the single neutral can handle it. > > - The red may be a switched circuit, where perhaps there was a wall switch that controlled the outlet. If you have any wall switches, check them and see if they come into play in your circuit diagram. At some point, an overhead light may have been connected to the wall switch and the old wires to the outlet were just left behind. > > - Some electricians follow a pattern on supply into the top of the box and next outlet out the bottom of the box (I may have that backwards) for wall outlets, so if you are mapping multiple outlets, that may make things easier. > > Good luck with the project. Taking the time to do the full circuit diagram in my 1950 built house was critical to understanding the problems I was having and figuring out a way to fix issues, such as every outlet but one in the original portion of the house including the refrigerator on the same circuit. I ended up rewiring all those outlets into four circuits and ended the common computer lockups or beeping UPS warnings. > > Brian > > > > On 3/24/2013 8:50 AM, Jim and Kathy wrote: >> I have a very strange electrical problem at my vacation home and am hoping >> someone here has an idea of what could be going on. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 25 07:23:23 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8492640437 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2013 07:23:23 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from col0-omc2-s2.col0.hotmail.com (col0-omc2-s2.col0.hotmail.com [65.55.34.76]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8108A40410 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2013 07:23:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from COL002-W18 ([65.55.34.71]) by col0-omc2-s2.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 25 Mar 2013 06:21:05 -0700 From: Jim Stone To: shop talk Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 08:21:05 -0500 FILETIME=[9ACB98C0:01CE295B] Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Strange electrical house issues Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I am home now and think I understand what is up and what needs to be done. It is actually pretty simple in the end, but given the way it was done originally, I still want to run things by this group before I fix it. I traced the wires back to the panel and from the outlet box out. The two wire conduit was the circuit in, the three wire went out to the ceiling fan/light box. (My recollection about the two switch boxes was wrong; it was a single box with a double switch.) Here is where it gets interesting. The red and black wires were just connected together in the switch box. So, that explains why the red wire was hot in the outlet; it was just coming back that way from the switch box. The black and red wires were joined in the switch box with another black for the next circuit and a jumper wire that went to the common side of the duplex switch. Another three wire left the switch box for the fan/light. All three whites were joined and the new red/black/wires wires went off to the fan/light. So, while I still don't understand what was done to begin, it seems to me that all I have to do now is ignore the red wire in the outlet box and wire the outlet as normal with a white/black in and a white/black out to the fan switch box. I think the switch as wired will be fine. Does this all make sense? Am I missing anything? It seems too easy after the complications and I am still left with a nagging doubt about how and why it was originally wired. As for the original, I think I know now how it was wired and what I did wrong when I replaced the outlet. The two white wires should have been on the same side, with just the red wire on the other. It would be making a very circuitous route, from the outlet box to the switch box and back, but I think it would work. Still, it would be much easier to just eliminate it and wire it the normal way. Correct? As always, thanks! Jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Mar 25 18:33:20 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68A9C427D3 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2013 18:33:20 -0600 (MDT) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7803C406B1 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2013 18:32:45 -0600 (MDT) Authentication-Results: cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com smtp.user=tr3driver@ca.rr.com; auth=pass (LOGIN) a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=tqqG6xZiDnYA:10 a=AAvYLDLOAAAA:8 a=6x54EQcwZ9Su-LXFUk4A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=s2loLT2QvaoA:10 a=Bc9c7qoAuKlRg6BgnzgyhA==:117 Received: from [10.127.132.92] ([10.127.132.92:38880] helo=cdptpa-web01-z01) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTPA id CF/C2-06772-F2CE0515; Tue, 26 Mar 2013 00:30:39 +0000 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 0:30:39 +0000 From: Randall To: shop talk , Jim Stone Sensitivity: Normal Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Strange electrical house issues Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net ---- Jim Stone wrote: > Does this all make sense? Am I missing > anything? It seems too easy after > the > complications and I am still left with a nagging doubt about how and why > it was originally wired. Makes sense to me. I'll guess that the original configuration was one of the switches controlling the outlet (hence the extra red wire carried power from the switch back to the outlet). Or maybe someone just got confused and pulled an extra wire then wasn't sure what to do with it. My only comment is that I would prefer to tie off (insulate) the red wire in some fashion at both ends. Don't take a chance on the next guy forgetting that it is unused, and connecting it to power at one end. Lots of strange things happen over the years. My previous house had a fuse in the neutral at the box. When the fuse opened up, most of the lights went very dim while the one in the utility room (and perhaps a few others) got extremely bright. Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive