Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?

From: Brian Kemp <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 18:27:10 -0800

Jim - If your existing counters are structurally good, have you 
considered a granite overlay?  See 
http://www.granitetransformations.com/ as a sample.  I can't speak to 
this specific vender other than seeing their advertisements. They were a 
good bit cheaper than solid granite.

We ended up moving instead and I definitely like my current granite 
counters over the laminate ones at the old house.  If I were doing it my 
way and budget wasn't a big concern, I'd get engineered stone like 
Silestone or Ceaserstone for durability and not needing to be sealed 
like granite.

You could also look at tile.  Whatever you have, I would definitely have 
a good bead of kitchen silicone caulk around the sink/counter joint.

My concern with the resin would be scratches and melting from hot stuff.

Brian

On 1/30/2013 5:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:
> Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching
> alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an
> undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, instead of
> being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use laminate
> unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a
> forever counter, so it is a possibility.
>
> One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut out the
> sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain?
>
> Concrete is out, way too much work.
>
> There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block.
>
> Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)?
>
> thanks,
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From: Jim Juhas <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 21:41:20 -0500

We considered tile and that turned out to be our second choice once we 
thought about the issues of keeping the grout clean.

We settled on granite and fortunately found a particular piece we liked 
that was near the bottom end of the price range.  I suggest you check 
some installers who have the granite in stock so you can see and touch. 
You might be surprised as we were that it was not exorbitantly  priced.

On 1/30/2013 9:27 PM, Brian Kemp wrote:
> this specific vender other than seeing their advertisements. They were 
> a good bit cheaper than solid granite.
>
> counters over the laminate ones at the old house.  If I were doing it 
> my way and budget wasn't a big concern, I'd get engineered stone like 
> You could also look at tile.  Whatever you have, I would definitely 
> have a good bead of kitchen silicone caulk around the sink/counter joint.
>
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From: Wayne <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 23:48:06 -0500

> thought about the issues of keeping the grout clean.

True That! I bought my place in 2001 with 4x4" tile countertops, and 
thought they looked cool and classy, and had previously seen them in 
some supposedly high end homes. They are a MAJOR PITA to clean. On the 
positive side: they are actually [usually] cheaper to install then 
laminate. That should tell you something. I am ready to tear the crap 
out and throw down cheap formica before I scrub grout again!!!

> that was near the bottom end of the price range.  I suggest you check

Granite is top of the price range, but can be stained and supposedly 
needs some kinda sealant on it periodically. I was gonna go with one of 
the synthetic or "quartz" intermediate ones, like Corian or Silstone, or 
-- can't remember all the brands now, but if you've been looking you know.

Got divorced instead and had to pay to keep the place (fair deal, but 
still sux) so tile it is  :(

-wayne

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From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:05:00 -0600

On Jan 30, 2013, at 7:00 PM, Jim Franklin <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Still reeling from the price of
>

Don't forget you can use more than one material. Bit of stone around the sink,
bit of marble for a baking work area, laminate every where else, say. Also
soap stone can be worked with pretty normal shop tools, so if you've got the
time....
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From: Jim Franklin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:45:25 -0500

On Jan 30, 2013, at 9:27 PM, Brian Kemp wrote:

> Jim - If your existing counters are structurally good,

This is a new install; old kitchen was gutted.
>
> You could also look at tile.  Whatever you have, I would definitely have a
good bead of kitchen silicone caulk around the sink/counter joint.

My first choice actually was tile. Rectified porcelain is $5/sf and will allow
1/16" grout lines. There were 2 issues- corners/edges and making them look
neat, which was solvable by Schluter products, but started approaching $1000
and a ton of work. And the other issue was the undermount sink and keeping the
sharp inside corners of the counter clean where it'd rest on the much softer
corners of the sink. Still an option, but if I can get a solid surface for
$1500... (rapidly realizng this is unrealistic).

1 cm thick Porcelain "sheets" are becoming common in Europe to use for
counters, but haven't made it here yet. They make 24" square tiles, but I need
24.5" for the wall counter and 25" for the island, and with the proper tools I
could route a curve to match the radius of the sink corners. I'm guessing I
need a wet saw of some type to do that...

> My concern with the resin would be scratches and melting from hot stuff.

Yea, heat resistant to 355F, which isn't that hot, really. I'm not the type to
dig out a trivet when I'm holding a hot pan, and I'm certainly not going to
remember to do it beforehand :-)
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From: PJ McGarvey <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:54:25 -0500

I'll put my vote in for Quartz, specifically the new LG Viatera that Home
Depot carries.  Many attractive varieties not including what's in the store,
super smooth surface, non-porous, anti-microbial, heat resistant... and there
there were some promotions that really helped knock off  hundreds of dollars
from the new cabinets and countertops.  There were two price points $44/sq. ft
for ours, and ~$90/sq. ft. I think, so it can be somewhat affordable.
We should be getting ours installed on Tuesday, though the wait has been
longer than normal.

> From: [email-masked]
> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:05:00 -0600
> To: [email-masked]
> CC: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
>
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From: "Karl Vacek" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:03:17 -0600

Granite doesn't have to be either expensive or difficult to care for.  It
really depends on the specific granite you choose.

We heard all the stuff about sealing and staining, and I didn't even like
granite before we got it.  We picked ours based on what we liked, after at
least a year of looking, and it turned out to be an excellent choice as well
as a great deal.

First - sealing.  That really applies most to marble, soapstone, and
limestone - it's way overplayed by the purveyors of alternative products.
Only some granite stains easily, and generally only the really light and
porous types.  And many grades are resin-impregnated for strength and stain
resistance.  We didn't see that fact played up anywhere, and I still don't.
How often do you see stains on granite monuments, on granite pavement, etc.
etc.?  Some outdoor granite items that you see every day has been exposed
for a hundred (or two) years with no staining.  You can bet that few
monuments or roads have ever been sealed.  Of course nobody cooks in the
cemetery, but the birds, plants, pollution, and weather have their way with
outdoor granite every day.

We chose Napoleon Gold, which is quite light-colored and looks very porous,
but (ours at least) was resin-impregnated by the mill after being quarried
and sawed into slabs, and it's quite impervious.  In addition, the installer
(an old friend) and I spent a couple of hours working sealer into the
counters (puddles of sealer spread by our bare hands) immediately when he
installed it - in 2005.  We've never sealed it again and have never had a
stain.  I keep asking him if we need to seal it again, but he says no.

We're not particularly fastidious.  At all.  Jill and the girls (me too)
have left everything on the counter - tomato products, oily tomato-based
sauces (which stain Tupperware immediately), red wine, Angostura bitters
(that stuff stains EVERYTHING), you name it.  No stains, even when we've
found a spill that ran under something and was missed for days.  We usually
try to remember to put down a towel next to the cooktop when frying to keep
hot grease spatters off it, but it's still had lots of hot grease on it over
the past 8 years.  Slight darkening from cooking oil is supposed to be
fairly common with certain stones, but ours hasn't even done that.

We routinely put hot pots and pans on it - enough that I worry about warping
the pan sometimes.  I wonder about doing that with the
plastic-plus-quartz/granite/glass products like Cambria, Silestone, etc.
They're stone/glass/etc. chips held together by polymer.  Sounds like
something that might be hurt by heat.

Want to break up a frozen-solid bag of ice?  Whack it on the granite counter
top.  Not going to hurt the granite.  Cutting directly on the granite is
rough on the knife but it's not going to scratch the granite one bit.
Bakers like to roll out dough on granite (or marble).  Makes a decent
surface plate for precision measurements too, when Jill's not around... 

Uba Tuba (a really common and beautiful dark-green/black granite) can be
under $25 per square foot installed.  And try to stain dark green and black.
Our granite guy friend now also offers really economical granite from China.
Some of that is sub-$20 per square foot, installed.

YMMV
Karl

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From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:10:19 -0500

On 1/31/2013 10:03 AM, Karl Vacek wrote:
> Makes a decent

Heh. I mentioned that once a few years ago. I'm not to do that, ever, 
and she'll know if I do it.

The really scary part of that was that I'm pretty sure she would know. I 
suppose I'm really married now.

> Some of that is sub-$20 per square foot, installed.

It's cheaper to ship granite over the Pacific than it is to use domestic 
stuff? That's impressive.
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From: Doug Braun <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:45:47 -0500

A lot of cemetery monuments are made in China, and the shop here just adds
the lettering.

Doug

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Scott <[email-masked]>wrote:

> _

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From: "Peter J. Thomas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:55:45 -0500

> Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)?

Redid our counters with granite floor tiles.  Was two decades ago when 
tiles were cheaper.  We found a bargain on a nice tiles under 4$ a 
square foot.  Prices are higher now but shopping around you might find 
some bargains.  Put down 3/4 plywood and layer of cement board set in 
mortar.  Bought a cheap tile saw (< $100) and ripped strips for the edge 
and laid the tiles on top.  I used a narrow gap and grout that closely 
matched the tiles.  Also deliberately choose a fine grain granite so the 
tiles would not stand out.  Sealed there hasn't be much grout staining 
except around the coffee maker and bleach does a good cleaning that.  A 
modest kitchen, about 22 linear feet including and island, was under $700.

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From: David Hillman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:19:55 -0500 (EST)

> stuff? That's impressive.

    Virtually all granite slabs are imported, either from Italy, Brazil, 
China, Turkey, Norway, or one of a few other places.  The only domestic I 
found was Dakota Mahogany, although I think there are a few others from 
the Dakotas as well.

    I found some that was quarried in Brazil, shipped to Italy for
processing, and being sold in a warehouse here outside Chicago.  And it 
wasn't particularly expensive.  In fact, most of what is available around 
here is processed in Italy, regardless of where it was quarried.

    When you consider what is involved in extracting that stone from the 
earth, slicing it into 3cm slabs, finishing those, transporting it to the 
buyer's house, and then cutting and installing it... $30 to $50 per foot 
starts to sound amazingly cheap.

--
  David Hillman

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From: Richard George <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:34:14 -0800

FWIW, if you wanted to go the granite tile route, you might want to 
consider watching at your local Habitat for Humanity restore - sometimes 
some fairly large quantities show up there, and its hard to beat the 
prices (around here I think its like $2/ ft^2 or less...)

I recently rehabbed a condo and saved a couple of grand on materials 
going that route..

Best,

rkg
(Richard George)
On 1/31/2013 7:55 AM, Peter J. Thomas wrote:
> mortar.  Bought a cheap tile saw (< $100) and ripped strips for the 
> edge and laid the tiles on top.  I used a narrow gap and grout that 
> closely matched the tiles.  Also deliberately choose a fine grain 
> granite so the tiles would not stand out.  Sealed there hasn't be much 
> grout staining except around the coffee maker and bleach does a good 
> cleaning that.  A modest kitchen, about 22 linear feet including and 
> island, was under $700.

[email-masked]

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From: "Peter J. Thomas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:15:32 -0500

> cleaning that.  A modest kitchen, about 22 linear feet including and 

BTW here is a Facebook photo.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/34996_10200222482028850_190707104_n.jpg

>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
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From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:15:13 -0500

Jim,

I forgot to mention I'm about to take a crack at a DIY concrete 
countertop for the old house. I'll post if it goes well. I thought it 
was too much work, too, but I just can't turn down the (lack of) cost.  
I'm hoping this granite transformations covers the other house. That'd 
be very nice.

Scott

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From: Paul Parkanzky <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:56:46 -0500

I have concrete for the counter we put in when we finished our basement.

I think it came out really well:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24556082@N02/7846083560/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24556082@N02/7846083666/in/photostream/

For a piece that small, it could be poured and polished elsewhere and then
installed.

-Paul

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Scott <[email-masked]>wrote:

> Jim,
>
> I forgot to mention I'm about to take a crack at a DIY concrete countertop
> for the old house. I'll post if it goes well. I thought it was too much
> work, too, but I just can't turn down the (lack of) cost.  I'm hoping this
> granite transformations covers the other house. That'd be very nice.
>
> Scott
>
>

[email-masked]

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From: Jim Franklin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:09:38 -0500

THAT'S CONCRETE?!?!?!

I had no idea. You have totally converted me :-)

Not decided on it yet, but the possibilities....

jim

[email-masked]

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From: Paul Parkanzky <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:10:14 -0500

I should have given more details.  It's concrete that's mixed with a fairly
coarse aggregate, and then the voids are filled with the black epoxy you
see.  You can make concrete just about any color you want, and you can get
different color/size aggregate to really spice it up.  A friend did
concrete counters with ribbons of copper in it.  I've also seen various
colors of glass pebbles or chips used.

FWIW, the material cost of the counter in the picture was ~$100.  But my
brother pours a lot of stuff like this as a hobby and already had the
expensive equipment (vibrator, diamond wheels for the angle grinder, etc).

I just wanted to put it out there because I saw people dismissing concrete
and I wanted people see that it could come out pretty nice.

-Paul

[email-masked]

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From: Jim Franklin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:40:48 -0500

Yep, I spent the afternoon reading about and looking at them, lights inside,
transparency using fiber optics, all kinds of crazy interesting stuff.

Girlfriend mentioned laying fossils and motorcycle parts in there. I'm trying
to figure out how to lay spent sprockets in there without it causing a catch
on the surface :-)

I also like the idea of using broken engine bits as surface aggregate. A play
on engine salad...

jim

> I should have given more details.  It's concrete that's mixed with a fairly
coarse aggregate, and then the voids are filled with the black epoxy you see.
You can make concrete just about any color you want, and you can get different
color/size aggregate to really spice it up.  A friend did concrete counters
with ribbons of copper in it.  I've also seen various colors of glass pebbles
or chips used.

[email-masked]

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From: Pat Horne <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:02:52 -0600

Wayne,

If you like the looks of the tile and the grout is the only thing you 
don't like, there is an epoxy-based grout that is great. You have to dig 
out all the old grout and replace it, but after that you have no 
maintenance. I used it on several jobs, bathroom floor, shower floor and 
surround and kitchen counters, all with great results. The stuff I used 
came from Lowes and is made by Laticrete. It is not cheap, but for my 
uses it was fine. Laticrete has a calculator on their site that will 
help you figure out how much it will cost you. Be warned, the number of 
units they calculate will be 1/4 the number of units you buy at Lowes 
because the Lowe's packages are 1/4 unit. Each quarter unit is about 
$18. Be sure to clean up the haze as you go, this stuff is really hard 
to clean up later.

<shop content> If I had tile in my shop I would have used it there!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Wayne

> needs some kinda sealant on it periodically. I was gonna go with one 
> of the synthetic or "quartz" intermediate ones, like Corian or 
> Silstone, or -- can't remember all the brands now, but if you've been 
> looking you know.
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice & Text	5026 FM 2001
[email-masked]	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --
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