Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe

From: "John Niolon" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:05:33 -0600

boy, there are some elaborate ideas here... might be cheaper to hire a small 
imported boy with a yellow caution flag to watch the hole...

I'm liking something like a 'slam latch' like on truck under body tool 
boxes... it's flush..(covers with a rug with no trip hazard)... .it locks 
and the barrier tape/rope/chain that someone mentioned before... pull it 
across the hall when the door is open... you could also use it for a queue 
line at the bathroom door if necessary !

john
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "shop talk" <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe

> ---- Paul Parkanzky <[email-masked]> wrote:
>> Another option would be to install an automatic closer on the door.  Then
>> the door wouldn't be open when somebody wasn't there holding it. 
>> However,
>> I think that this would probably make the door treacherous (and extremely
>> inconvenient) to use.
>
> Hmm, what about a remote controlled automatic opener/closer, like one 
> sometimes see on hospital doors?  Push a big button (positioned so you can 
> bump it with an elbow if your hands are full) and the door opens long 
> enough to get through it, then closes.  You could have switches on both 
> sides, making it more practical to close the door while in the basement. 
> Probably combined with some indication from above that someone is down 
> there, so you know not to block the door.
>
> Randall
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From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 21:11:20 -0600

Thanks guys.  Some interesting approaches, but none that will probably keep
the lawyers at bay.  (Although the "imported boy" idea might actually work, it
could also bring a different kind of lawyer my way.)  Blocking the halls would
stop someone falling in from the bedrooms, but not an absent-minded person
(like yours truly) from taking a dive on the way to the bathroom from the
living room.

The ideal would be some kind of strut that would 1) make the door easier to
open and 2) cause it to automatically close a few seconds after being opened.
I doubt anything like that exists.  I can envision an elaborate system where
three barriers would 'unfold' when the door was opened, one of which could
swing away to allow entry to the steps.  However, this would be well beyond my
ability to design and execute, so I suspect I will be getting the padlock
out.

But, please feel free to drop me a line if any of you wake up in the middle of
the night with a sudden flash of insight.  One never knows...

Thanks again,

Jim

> From: [email-masked]
> To: [email-masked]
> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:05:33 -0600
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
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---

From: "Eric J Russell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 22:40:59 -0500 a=-JObsjWD2_UA:10 a=P2oOn6vrs4wA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:17 a=l0LQuQEF7-nFWpPEDSwA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:117 reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0

I'm imagining something like the mechanisms at Thomas Jefferson's 
Monticello. When the doors are opened a hidden pulley system could move 
bars - like the trafficators on an olde English car - into the hallways 
around the opening.

Can you upload a photo of the floor doors for us to peruse? Us visual 
learners like photos...

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Stone"

> I can envision an elaborate system where three barriers would 'unfold' 
> when the door was opened, 

[email-masked]

---

From: nick brearley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:30:38 +0000

Eric J Russell wrote:
> Monticello. When the doors are opened a hidden pulley system could 
> move bars - like the trafficators on an olde English car - into the 
> hallways around the opening.
>

For starters, how about this?

http://www.cellaraccess.co.uk/Grille%20Door.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCQLGCmhllo

Would keep children entertained for hours. Won't be cheap, but still 
cheaper than lawyer's bills...

Nick Brearley

[email-masked]

---

From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:35:58 -0800

All the engineering solutions are pretty cool sounding, but after being 
a landlord myself, there's just no way I'd ever rent out a house with a 
trapdoor in it, no matter what. I'd build a staircase--even outside the 
house, if I had to--before I let tenants use a trapdoor in a hallway. 
Shoot, I'd nail the trapdoor shut and just eliminate access to the 
basement entirely before I let a tenant use a trapdoor.

I don't think you could buy enough liability coverage to cover lifetime 
skilled nursing care for someone falling through that thing. And they 
will find a way to do it. I had a tenant flush a deodorant bottle down a 
toilet. After that, anything seems possible.

For just you guys, you could install gates in the hallway--like a 
railroad crossing barrier. When someone uses the trapdoor, they lower 
the barriers on either side of it. If they were just above waist-height, 
and if they locked into a latch on both sides of the hallway they'd 
certainly make you aware of their presence before you fell into a hole 
in the floor, no matter how sleepy you were. You could even tie them 
into the operation of the trapdoor itself.

But all that sounds to me like as much work as putting a three-foot 
bump-out and a staircase on an exterior wall.

Scott

On 1/17/2013 7:40 PM, Eric J Russell wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Stone"
>
>
>> I can envision an elaborate system where three barriers would 
>> 'unfold' when the door was opened, 

[email-masked]

---

From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:42:34 -0600

Thanks Nick.  That is exactly the kind of thing I had been hoping to 
find.  I
actually found that company when I was surfing to see if I 
could find an
answer before polling this group, but obviously didn't spend enough time on
their 
site.  Of course, shipping something like that to the States is
probably
 out of the question, but I will write the company to see if they
know 
of a closer source.

As for Eric's suggestion to post a photo, I will be happy to.  I don't have
one but will do that when I am at the place in a couple of weeks.

Cheers,

Jim

> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:30:38 +0000
> From: [email-masked]
> CC: [email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: "John Niolon" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:06:37 -0600

ok, I'm the dummy now.... never knew we could post a photo here ???  or are 
posting to another site and linking to it ???

john

[email-masked]

---

From: old dirtbeard <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 06:19:58 -0800 (PST)

Attached photo... (not of a trap door).  :-)
 best,

doug
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XHL 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
'07 Aprilia SXV 550

----- Original Message ----
From: John Niolon <[email-masked]>
To: shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Sent: Fri, January 18, 2013 6:05:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe???  photo's ???

john

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Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
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From: "Paul Mele" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:20:29 -0500

I'll second this opinion.  I'm also a landlord, and as an ER doc, I've heard
thousands of stories of "errors in judgment" .  My wife and daughter are
both attorneys.  

PM

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 11:36 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe

All the engineering solutions are pretty cool sounding, but after being a
landlord myself, there's just no way I'd ever rent out a house with a
trapdoor in it, no matter what. I'd build a staircase--even outside the
house, if I had to--before I let tenants use a trapdoor in a hallway. 
Shoot, I'd nail the trapdoor shut and just eliminate access to the basement
entirely before I let a tenant use a trapdoor.

I don't think you could buy enough liability coverage to cover lifetime
skilled nursing care for someone falling through that thing. And they will
find a way to do it. I had a tenant flush a deodorant bottle down a toilet.
After that, anything seems possible.

For just you guys, you could install gates in the hallway--like a railroad
crossing barrier. When someone uses the trapdoor, they lower the barriers on
either side of it. If they were just above waist-height, and if they locked
into a latch on both sides of the hallway they'd certainly make you aware of
their presence before you fell into a hole in the floor, no matter how
sleepy you were. You could even tie them into the operation of the trapdoor
itself.

But all that sounds to me like as much work as putting a three-foot bump-out
and a staircase on an exterior wall.

Scott

[email-masked]

---

From: old dirtbeard <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 06:28:27 -0800 (PST)

The test would seem to indicate that it still strips attachments...
 best,

doug
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XHL 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
'07 Aprilia SXV 550

----- Original Message ----
From: old dirtbeard <[email-masked]>
To: John Niolon <[email-masked]>; [email-masked]
Sent: Fri, January 18, 2013 6:21:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe???  photo's ???

doug
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XHL 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
'07 Aprilia SXV 550

----- Original Message ----
From: John Niolon <[email-masked]>
To: shop-talk <[email-masked]>
Sent: Fri, January 18, 2013 6:05:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe???  photo's ???

john

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: Rand E <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:08:46 -0800 (PST)

Someone would then figure out how to 'trip' over the barriers.  

Randy

________________________________
From: Scott <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Fri, January 18, 2013 7:36:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe

All the engineering solutions are pretty cool sounding, but after being a 
landlord myself, there's just no way I'd ever rent out a house with a trapdoor 
in it, no matter what. I'd build a staircase--even outside the house, if I had 
to--before I let tenants use a trapdoor in a hallway. Shoot, I'd nail the 
trapdoor shut and just eliminate access to the basement entirely before I let a 
tenant use a trapdoor.

I don't think you could buy enough liability coverage to cover lifetime skilled 
nursing care for someone falling through that thing. And they will find a way to 
do it. I had a tenant flush a deodorant bottle down a toilet. After that, 
anything seems possible.

For just you guys, you could install gates in the hallway--like a railroad 
crossing barrier. When someone uses the trapdoor, they lower the barriers on 
either side of it. If they were just above waist-height, and if they locked into 
a latch on both sides of the hallway they'd certainly make you aware of their 
presence before you fell into a hole in the floor, no matter how sleepy you 
were. You could even tie them into the operation of the trapdoor itself.

But all that sounds to me like as much work as putting a three-foot bump-out and 
a staircase on an exterior wall.

Scott

On 1/17/2013 7:40 PM, Eric J Russell wrote:
> I'm imagining something like the mechanisms at Thomas Jefferson's Monticello. 
>When the doors are opened a hidden pulley system could move bars - like the 
>trafficators on an olde English car - into the hallways around the opening.
> 
> Can you upload a photo of the floor doors for us to peruse? Us visual learners 
>like photos...
> 
> Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC
> 
>> I can envision an elaborate system where three barriers would 'unfold' when the 
>>door was opened, 
>>

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
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---

From: Mark J Bradakis <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:15:34 -0700

Oddly enough I just mentioned on the Triumph list that I should get the
forums back on the air.  One CAN easily post pictures there.  So maybe
this weekend that link down below will actually become useful.

mjb.

[email-masked]

---

From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 23:54:15 -0800

I was thinking for just him and his wife. I'm reasonably certain the 
barrier would stop me, and probably my wife too. And (more importantly) 
I know I won't sue myself.

On the other hand, it's only a matter of time before the one of you 
using the trap door forgets to use the barriers, or doesn't use them 
because you'll "just be down there for a second". That will be the time 
the other of you gets up to get the glass of water.

I'd keep the trapdoor if it was just me in the house. Or my and my wife, 
because I know she's not getting up to do laundry at 2:00 a.m. If your 
wife might, I'd loose the trapdoor.

And there is just no way on earth I'd ever let a tenant rent a house 
with a trap door in the floor. That sounds to me like an excellent way 
to see the worst of human nature. The most interesting aspect of that 
rental would be: can an attorney write a clause in the rental agreement 
that indemnifies you from liability related to the trapdoor that could 
actually withstand litigation, and then, could your bank account 
withstand such litigation, even assuming successful resolution? That's a 
question I'll never want to find out for myself, personally.

In all seriousness, o.p., if you go through it, get a liability coverage 
of at least $10 million. That should be enough to run off the claimants 
when the company tenders limits on day one of the issue. I wonder what 
that policy would cost. Put the cottage in a separate S-Corp or L.L.C. 
(or Trust, or whatever). Find a good attorney and discuss this with 
them. Probably want to protect your other house too.

(Really $10 million. Lifetime skilled nursing care or wrongful death is 
probably more than that, but 33% of eight figures tends to motivate a 
plaintiff's attorney in most small towns, I'd bet.)

Sheesh...when did I get so cynical?

On 1/18/2013 7:08 AM, Rand E wrote:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Scott <[email-masked]>
> *To:* [email-masked]
> *Sent:* Fri, January 18, 2013 7:36:16 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
>
> All the engineering solutions are pretty cool sounding, but after 
> being a landlord myself, there's just no way I'd ever rent out a house 
> with a trapdoor in it, no matter what. I'd build a staircase--even 
> outside the house, if I had to--before I let tenants use a trapdoor in 
> a hallway. Shoot, I'd nail the trapdoor shut and just eliminate access 
> to the basement entirely before I let a tenant use a trapdoor.
>
> I don't think you could buy enough liability coverage to cover 
> lifetime skilled nursing care for someone falling through that thing. 
> And they will find a way to do it. I had a tenant flush a deodorant 
> bottle down a toilet. After that, anything seems possible.
>
> the barriers on either side of it. If they were just above 
> waist-height, and if they locked into a latch on both sides of the 
> hallway they'd certainly make you aware of their presence before you 
> fell into a hole in the floor, no matter how sleepy you were. You 
> could even tie them into the operation of the trapdoor itself.
>

[email-masked]