Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids

From: Ronnie Day <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:57:02 -0600

Think about borrowing or renting something for a couple of weeks so you
have more time to look and decide.

On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Tim <[email-masked]> wrote:

> OH yea, we are looking at an 07 with 143K on it. We can't afford a lower
> mileage car but have no choice--we have to buy something. The wife totaled
> her car Saturday and we have to have two cars.
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Tim wrote:
>
>  Looking for people's feedback, input, experiences, etc on camry hybrids.
>> I know literally nothing about hybirds and always like the info, etc I read
>> here.
>>
>> My wife read 150K mileage battery life. Does anyone know if this is this
>> actually accurate? I've read battery replacement costs from $3K to $5K.
>> Anyone have any experience replacing a camry battery?
>>
>> Thanks
>> tim
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From: Shannah Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:52:14 -0800

I hope your wife is okay.

I can't speak to whether or not you should buy
the Camry.

However, we have an 2005 Prius with about
98,000 miles on it, and we aren't anywhere near
buying new batteries.  Ours are working just
great.

We are taking it in for an "intermediate drive shaft"
recall tomorrow morning.

That points up what is, to me, the big thing to look
at with the car: what recalls have there been on it,
and which ones have been done?  Yes, they are
paid for by Toyota (or, at least, ours have been) but
it's a pain in the neck to have to drop the car off,
especially if you need two, as you do.

Otherwise, if it's been serviced regularly, I would
think that I'd be willing to take a chance on it.

If you have more technical questions, you might
try Luscious Garage's website.

http://www.lusciousgarage.com/

Carolyn, John, and the other techs are very good
about answering questions, and taking seriously
the concerns of car owners.

Shannah

On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Tim <[email-masked]> wrote:

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---

From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:16:41 -0800

I love hybrids--both the concept and Toyota's execution of them.

Having said that...I second the advice about looking at non-hybrids. 
Several co-workers have various hybrids and I suspect the advertised 
m.p.g. claims aren't being reached.

I wanted a Pruis, and my plan was to get one from the dealer for a test 
drive and drive it a week to see what kind of mileage I got on my 
commute, but Toyota isn't Acura et al and won't let you keep one that long.

Mileage is obviously highly dependent on personal driving habits, but I 
think that's even more a factor for a Toyota-style hybrid. So long as 
you accelerate gently enough and stay below a certain speed, the 
electric motor is supposed to power the whole car. I'm sure there's a 
certain amount of driver training you'll do to yourself, but you also 
have to account for hills and traffic on your commute, and the best way 
to see is to just drive one over the route several times and...see.

Anyway, one co-worker insists she gets 50+ m.p.g., but her husband says 
she's putting gas in the tank at about the same rate as when she owned a 
Civic, according to the credit card statements. A few admit to 
disappointment on mileage, but that could be a factor of missed 
(unrealistic) expectations, and the mileage could still be very good. 
The Camry hybrid and Priuses I got as rentals didn't impress me, but I 
drove them like a regular car, I wasn't on my daily commute, and I think 
I remember reading that hybrids 'learn' your driving somewhat, which 
would be messed up in a rental.

I ended up not buying a hybrid. Dunno, just some thoughts. And if you 
get one, let us know what sort of mileage you get, would you?

Oh, and my neighbor converted a Pruis into a plug-in hybrid and has 
decals all over it that say 100 m.p.g. I've got the web site written 
down somewhere if you buy the Camry and want to check it out. I'd 
imagine if anyone knew how to get those things to make excellent mileage 
it'd be him.
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

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From: John Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:07:36 -0800

> I love hybrids--both the concept and Toyota's execution of them.

The concept's okay if you don't mind the extra complexity and package 
size.  But...I've found late-model Toyota product to be pretty 
unpleasant vehicles to drive.

There's something about the last couple generations of Camry - the 
driving position, somehow - that's just a little off for me.   All the 
late-model Toyotas I've driven have flat, slabby seats that presumably 
are compromised for the three-hundie buyer, but I'm not and I don't like 
them.   And the shape suffers somewhat (not as bad as a Merc CLS, but 
enough that even my car-ignorant sister-in-law would notice) from 
shrinking-window syndrome.

Mechanically, the Prius works better.  Really well, in fact.  The 
engine's happier, without the groans and shakes that accompany the 
Camry's bigger four.   The chassis is surprisingly good (better than the 
last generation, it doesn't hobby-horse and it knows where straight 
ahead is.)  It's a Toyota, so the cheap hard plastic interior at least 
fits together pretty well, the caveat about flat unsupportive seats 
still applies.

But...I could never own one.  It's like driving a jail cell.

Those long, flat A-pillars narrow the forward field of vision to about 
40 degrees.  Beyond that you're bobbing and weaving around to look 
through little holes and slices and notches in the glass in front and 
behind you.

It just gets very tiring to drive the thing after a while.

I had a second-gen car as a loaner for a couple weeks back when my M5 
was still under warranty and the dealer had to take the dash apart to 
fix an AC whistle.  I drove it like I would anything else I own, up and 
down the SF peninsula, and got exactly 40mpg average.

John.

[email-masked]

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From: Michael Porter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:31:22 -0700

On 1/29/2013 8:07 AM, John Miller wrote:
> fix an AC whistle.  I drove it like I would anything else I own, up 
> and down the SF peninsula, and got exactly 40mpg average.
>

Apples and oranges.  Your M5 is a car with an MRSP of over $80K.  Do you 
really expect a car for half or less than that price--and with 
technology radically different than yours--to be better overall? (And I 
say that as a pleased new owner of a twelve-year-old BMW 530i 5-spd that 
gets 31 mpg on the highway.)

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

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From: John Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:11:53 -0800

>Apples and oranges.  Your M5 is a car with an MRSP of over $80K.  
70k E39, and that has nothing to do with it.   I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better seats, better material quality, and better outward visibility than any present Toyota.

John.
-- 
Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

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From: Michael Porter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:25:36 -0700

On 1/29/2013 9:11 AM, John Miller wrote:
> 70k E39, and that has nothing to do with it.

Oh, yes, it does, because that's your standard for comparison (what 
year?-a 2007 is $82K).  $70K is still about double the cost of the cars 
to which you're making a judgment.
>     I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better seats, better material quality, and better outward visibility than any present Toyota.

And, your `86 Celica gets about 22-24 mpg overall.  Don't kid a 
kidder--I was a Toyota factory-trained, master line mechanic in the 
`80s.  I know the technology of that time.

Good cars for the age, but, don't bullshit me.

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

[email-masked]

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From: Paul Parkanzky <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:30:54 -0500

I have to agree that the modern Toyotas have pretty terrible seats and are
incredibly numb to drive.  And that's comparing it to our '09 TDI Jetta and
'10 TDI Golf.  For the record, I don't like the seats in the Jetta nearly as
well as in the Golf, but they're still better than the Toyotas I've driven.

-Paul

On Jan 29, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Michael Porter <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Oh, yes, it does, because that's your standard for comparison (what year?-a
2007 is $82K).  $70K is still about double the cost of the cars to which
you're making a judgment.
>>    I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better seats,
better material quality, and better outward visibility than any present
Toyota.
>
> And, your `86 Celica gets about 22-24 mpg overall.  Don't kid a kidder--I
was a Toyota factory-trained, master line mechanic in the `80s.  I know the
technology of that time.

[email-masked]

---

From: Mike Rambour <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:47:39 -0800

Hybrids are nice, a friend owns a Prius and while there was nothing 
wrong his 3 year old one, he traded it in on a new one a month ago. He 
wanted the "cooler" that tries to keep the interior cool while the car 
is parked at work, some kind of fan that exhausts the hot air.  That was 
it, that is why he traded in his 3 year old car.  He gets great mileage 
with the car and brags about it all the time, he works 6 miles from home 
and drives about 7,000 miles a year based on the mileage of his trade 
in.  If you amortize the cost of the car, the MPG costs get pretty high.

  But they are NOT for me!

  I firmly believe life is too short to not drive the car you want, I 
get 14MPG when I am lucky and if I didn't need to hear that 3.6l V8 
screaming at 8,000RPM inches behind me, I might get better mileage but I 
can't stop listening to it.  When my friend drives with me, we get to 
work with huge smiles and start off the workday with a smile, no matter 
how bad a day I had at work, just walking out to the parking lot and 
seeing my car lifts my spirits, fire it up and my smile is back.   We 
don't have that smile in his car.  When my wife first drove my car to 
her work (local high school) she said it was surprising to her how much 
more she enjoyed the drive both to work and then home.  But she does not 
drive it to work often, the kids pay too much attention to the car and 
she is afraid it will get scratched if she pisses one of them off, so 
she only drives it work maybe 2-3 times a month.

  A Prius and other hybrids are get from point-a to point-b appliances 
but life is too short for that type of living, life is all about getting 
to point-b from point-a via point-c and maybe even point-d.    I am a 
15,000-20,000 miles per year kind of guy, it may be 6 miles to work, but 
its often 40+ miles over the mountain roads to get home and then there 
is the weekends :)

  To each his own, some people are all about the maximum MPG no matter 
what the initial cost of the car is, others are all about the maximum 
SPG (smiles per gallon).

   Mike

[email-masked]

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From: Shannah Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:54:09 -0800

Let me state upfront that I do like my 2010 Prius.

That said, "numb" is a great way to describe it.
It's my understanding that the brakes are computer
controlled.  This leads to zero road feel in the brake
pedal, and it works oddly at times.

Sometimes, I put my foot on the brake, and it slams
on immediately with very little travel in the pedal.

Other times, I put my foot on the brake, and it travels
a very long way before reluctantly slowing down the
car.  If I persist, it will stop, but in its own sweet time.

Luckily, after someone rear ended me (lots of damage)
last year, the brakes have been better (no idea why)
but they are still chancy enough that I will not be
handing this car down to my son when he gets his
license.

I have a friend who occasionally needs to drive one
of our cars, and she strongly prefers the 2005 to the
2010.

I had to take my car to an independent mechanic
(Luscious Garage) to get the headlights adjusted,
because they were so low I could not see to drive
at night, and the dealership kept telling me they were
fine.

Had I known then what I know now, I would have
kept my Acura TSX and waited for a Volt, or Leaf,
or something.

I don't see having a hybrid or electric car as something
that I'm doing directly for the environment.  I am
supporting the technology so that it improves to the
point where it *does* make a big difference.

Shannah

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:30 AM, Paul Parkanzky <[email-masked]> wrote:

> year?-a
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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---

From: John Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:56:00 -0800

>>     I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better
>> seats, better material quality, and better outward visibility than any
>> present Toyota.
>

And please don't bullshit me.  Read what I wrote.

I said that '86 Celica had:

a) better seats
b) better material quality
c) better outward visibility

than any present Toyota.

Do you dispute those points?  Please explain where I said anything about 
the powertrain or fuel economy.

There's no question that there've been substantial changes (mostly but 
not all improvements) in powertrain technology since 1986.

My original point still stands:

a) Present-day Toyotas (and it's true of many of the other Japanese 
brands as well) have been thrifted and decontented mercilessly over the 
past two decades, to the point that it widely affects parts of the 
vehicle you see and feel.

b) The material quality is nowhere near what it was twenty years ago 
(you have to shop in the Lexus store to get material quality comparable 
to what was the norm in Toyota-label products in the early '90s)

c) They've always had tendencies toward odd designs but in some cases 
they've gone full-tilt down the weird hole often to the detriment of 
functionality.  I would note here that while Honda followed the 
Prius-style extended A-pillars with the last couple generations of 
Civic, the new Civic-based small Acura pulls them back to a more 
traditional shape.

John.

[email-masked]

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From: Miq Millman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:10:54 -0800

There are multiple studies available that compare Diesel to Hybrid and for
the cost per mile, plus long term recycling (li-ion battery == land fill
waste == not green) the Diesel is better, even paying more at the pump for
the go go juice.  This is especially true of used cars that are closer to
their 10 year replacement storage pack.

Considering you can find a used Jetta TDI for between $5-9K (2003-2007) and
a Camry Hybrid is about 2x that, the extra $5000 you would have spent on
the hybrid goes a long way to pay for the extra $0.30/gallon.  Not to
mention the $7000 replacement battery.....

For the record, my 2003 E39 530i sport is by far the best handling, most
comfortable, 5 seater I've ever driven.  It get's 34 mpg on the highway
between Portland and Seattle on cruise at 70 mph.  I'll likely have this
one in my cardrobe for the next 20 years.  (just ticked over 74k miles, I
average about 4500 a year in it).

As old age and treachery becomes more prominent in our lives, I say buy a
car for the connection you have strongest with with:  your buttocks in the
seat.  Comfy seats go a long way towards alleviating the other annoyances
(wind noise, tire noise, poor mpg, poor acceleration)....

Happy curmudgeon day.
--
__
Miq Millman   [email-masked]
Tualatin, OR  Big Llama Productions

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:30 AM, Paul Parkanzky <[email-masked]> wrote:

> seats,

[email-masked]

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From: John Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:19:04 -0800

> she only drives it work maybe 2-3 times a month.

There's apparently a large buyer base out there who cares about nothing 
but fuel economy and iPhone integration.

Really, though, the Prius these days goes pretty well (especially if you 
push the 'Power' button.)  In daily use it feels like a really good CVT 
hooked to an engine with a nice fat torque curve - what's really going 
on of course is that the electric motor's filling in the holes in the 
gasoline engine's response.   The response to the gas pedal is better 
than most of the small-engine-plus-automatic combinations out there.

If it were just packaged in something that had the greenhouse and 
ergonomics of a 2002 (or an AE86 Corolla) it'd be wonderful.

John.

[email-masked]

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From: Michael Porter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:22:33 -0700

> c) better outward visibility

And, it got much shittier mileage, and, maybe, the newer cars don't 
because of changes to the overall configuration, including seats and the 
shape of the envelope.
>
> Do you dispute those points?  Please explain where I said anything 
> about the powertrain or fuel economy.

You didn't. Which means you ignored the changes made for increased mileage.
> My original point still stands:

Does it? You whined about seating and visibility, based on experience 
with other makes.
> brands as well) have been thrifted and decontented mercilessly over 
> the past two decades, to the point that it widely affects parts of the 

Based on your experiences with a much more expensive car, and a small 
amount of time with a car of lesser value and much higher mileage than 
the one you're used to driving.
> (you have to shop in the Lexus store to get material quality 
> comparable to what was the norm in Toyota-label products in the early 
> '90s)

To some extent, I agree with this.  Toyota put much more effort and 
money into the high-dollar Lexus than its lesser brands, and that cost 
them market share (the recent problems with throttle/braking issues is 
just one aspect of the problem--they've tried to incorporate 
technological changes across the lines that didn't work well. They spent 
so much money on Lexus technology that they expected to filter down and 
be suitable for low-end models--and which didn't--that they've now had 
to retrench and rethink what they've been doing).
> Civic, the new Civic-based small Acura pulls them back to a more 

Why this emphasis on A-pillars? That seems to be a peculiarity unique to 
you and unrelated to the cars.  I adapt to the front and side views 
whatever car I'm in, whether it's the GT6 I still use occasionally, or 
the BMW.  I think that's just an anachronism that's particular to you 
and not the car design. A-pillars really don't mean shit.  C'mon, ever 
since the `30s, they've been pretty thin and unobtrusive.  Maybe you're 
manufacturing a complaint here.

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

[email-masked]

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From: John Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:41:28 -0800

> the one you're used to driving.

Let's see here.  Since 1981 I've driven two or more examples of 
virtually every Toyota product built.  Corollas, Celicas, a few Camrys, 
Mk2/3 Supras and a Mk4.  Land Cruisers, 4Runners, the occasional pickup 
and Cressida.  Only owned two, but a brother-in-law was a Toyota dealer 
for a few years so they were all over the family.  IS300s (someday I may 
go find a good one of those, that was one very nice car), GS, LS.  I 
don't fit in the Lexus ES or the later GSes so I try to avoid those.

In that period I've also owned a fair number of Fords, Saabs, VWs, BMWs, 
two Suburbans and an Audi.

> money into the high-dollar Lexus than its lesser brands,

Toyota put a lot of money into starting the Lexus dealership body 
correctly.  They screwed their dealers down to a very high standard of 
behavior.

As for the cars themselves, they're Toyotas.  Very elaborate Toyotas, 
and almost the only US Toyota product still built in Japan, but Toyotas.

> you and unrelated to the cars.

Perhaps it's my peculiarity but there are three things that matter to me 
when I sit down in a car: the seat, the steering, and the outward 
visibility.  How the powertrain behaves, or even the ultimate limits of 
the suspension, those might be an annoyance later, or you might work 
around their limits.  But the driving position, the outward visibility, 
and the steering is either right or wrong in the first minute.   This is 
as true for a VW Beetle as an E39 BMW.

I can think of only one car I've owned where I was fooled - we bought a 
'92 Infiniti Q45.  Beautifully built, very fast, its 278 horses were 
much beefier animals than the 282 BMW put in the 540i that replaced it, 
when it hit its 145mph speed limiter you'd actually feel a pretty good 
lurch as it cut you back.

But the footwells were so shallow, the distance from pan to roof too 
short, so for someone 6'1" like me you're either sitting with your legs 
straight out or your head wedged in the headliner.   My 5'2" wife 
thought it was just fine.   Also, 2.1-turn steering and 4200lb of mass 
do not go together, it was a twitchy beast.  Nissan slowed the steering 
down in '93.

John.

[email-masked]

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From: Michael Porter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:55:25 -0700

On 1/29/2013 10:41 AM, John Miller wrote:
> short, so for someone 6'1" like me you're either sitting with your 
> legs straight out or your head wedged in the headliner.   My 5'2" wife 
> do not go together, it was a twitchy beast.  Nissan slowed the 
> steering down in '93.
>

I'm 6'4" and I just  barely fit in a GT6 (which I've been driving for 
the last seven years). I'm guess I'm not as fussy as you. Sitting in a 
530i is like being in an opera seat to me. :)

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

[email-masked]

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From: Mike Rambour <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:12:07 -0800

can we keep the my dick is bigger than your dick discussion out of the 
hybrid discussion ?

  cuz if not, this is the internet and you will lose to me anyway.

  The issues with hybrids to me are that they are not fun to drive, I 
don't care about MPG I care about fun.  No I am not rich but I budget 
for my gasoline because the car I choose to drive gets such bad mileage.

  When my car was in the shop for its annual maintenance and new front 
ball joints, they gave me a Porsche Panamera Hybrid to drive for the 
week, it was a nice car but still not fun to drive.  I did not like the 
transition from electric to gas, I hated hearing the engine shut off 
while driving at low speeds.  But it did get up and go very nicely, I 
actually had no issues with the function of the car just issues with the 
lack of enjoyment.

  It also was way too big a car, cup holders everywhere, electric crap 
everywhere, I was so happy to get back into my car with no cupholders, 
no back seat, no cruise control, just the basics with a V8 and 6 gears.

  And just like my wife's car (Hyundai Veloster) which has lousy seat, 
my friends Prius with lousy seat, the Panamera's seats were also 
uncomfortable after a few hours in the car.  I am beginning to think its 
a requirement for Hybrids to be uncomfortable.
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

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From: "Mullen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:13:12 -0500

The other thing to do is just ignore the hybrids and get a regular car that
gets good mileage.

Last summer my wife needed a new car and since she's having foot problems -
broken bone in on and a torn Achilles heel in the other, we decided to try
an automatic.  First automatic in over 33 years of marriage,

Anyway, the Hyundai Accent is advertised to get 40 MPG, and sure enough,
some around town driving drops it back to 30-35 MPG, but her five day
commute brings it up to 40 MPG or more.  It's a small car, but not too
small, drives nice, handles nice, rides nice. It's not a Lotus when it comes
to performance, but it will easily keep up or surpass a Camry or Civic.
It was a great investment, and was under 20,000 for a new car and I do
believe I'll get my monies worth out of it (I tend to keep cars until they
fall apart - still driving a '93 Accord with 240,000 miles on it).   We like
it, we just probably won't want to take it on a cross country trip to
California (from Virginia).  Our previous car (son inherited it) was a
Hyundai Elantra and it's a couple of years older - rated for 30 MPG and gets
there all the time.  It's a bit bigger and could easily server as our cross
country transportation.

Try one of the Hyundai's you will be surprised at the quality - they are
real cars, even though they are cheaper.

Tim Mullen

[email-masked]

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From: Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:56:40 -0500

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 1:31 PM,  <[email-masked]> wrote:
> The important factor here is how you are going to drive a car.  If you spend a lot of time on the freeway in normal traffic, the hybrid is a waste of money.  Any cheap econobox is gong to do better than hybrids in overall costs.
>
> If you spend all your time in short trips around town and sitting in traffic-jams in nice weather, the hybrid is the way to go.  A plug-in hybrid even better.

This ^^^

Only marginally connected to the discussion, we bought two new
vehicles this year; one for me and one for my wife - which will be
opassed down to my daughter in bout 18 months, when she goes off to
college.

I traded a 97 F150 V6 for a 2012 F-150 EcoBoost.  I gained about 12%
increase in fuel mileage, and for the first time in 15 years, I have a
truck that can capably pull the car trailer...up to 11,300 pounds,
they claim.  And, it's fun to drive. Twin turbos = very little lag to
speak of (when the occasion calls for Go!).  I have 5300 miles on it,
and it's 1000 percent more comfortable than the 97 econotruck.

My wife got a 2012 Jetta SE.  It's more of an appliance than a Car,
since it's minimally equipped - the only gauge in the car is for fuel
level - but it has power windows and doors, and Bluetooth for the
phone.  If it had automatic headlights (or on all the time like our
Volvos) it would be perfect for its intended purpose.  We looked at
TDIs and liked them, but this was an end of the month, end of the
model year, last on the lot special that we just couldn't pass up.
The TDI would have been at least $6k more, which spoiled the economy
of it.

Both vehicles turned out to be a compromise between fuel mileage,
which is probably the largest ongoing expense, and comfort/fun, which
if it's lacking offsets the economy.  But we've been pretty happy with
both.

And, when I need extra smileage, I can choose a Triumph.  So there's that.

Jeff Scarbrough
Improving the economy in Corrosion Acres, Ga.
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

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From: Ronnie Day <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:25:00 -0600

All too often people will buy a vehicle "to save money" but they don't
calculate the real total cost of owning and driving. We have an '05 Accord
LX 4-door with 196K on it.. Our commute is 75-80 miles per day, mostly
rural highway, and we get 27 to 28 mpg. On trips up to DFW or to the San
Antonio area we'll usualy get around 30 while on cross country trips it's
not unusual to get 33+. The car's in really good shape and long paid for so
while a new ride with better mileage is tempting, dollar wise it doesn't
make sense when a $400/$500 payment is included, even getting 40 mpg.

I think it's more or less the same idea with the '02 Suburban we bought
last summer. We're the second owners and got it for $7200. Heck of a lot
cheaper that $45K for a new one! Even at 17 or 18 mpg we're better off
taking the Suburban instead of two high 20 mpg cars if we'll all fit in it.
If the kids get too rowdy thre's always the roof rack! It's also got the
full towing package with 3.73 gears so it'll handle a car hauler or travel
trailer pretty well, too. Even if I had to rebuild the engine and trans
(which I doubt, they're in great shape) I'm still way ahead compared to a
new one.

All that said, drive what you want for reasons that satisfy you, not
someone else. For fun driving I hop in my Datsun 2000 and soon I'll add a
couple of 510s.

Just sayin'
Ron

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>wrote:

> > The important factor here is how you are going to drive a car.  If you
> spend a lot of time on the freeway in normal traffic, the hybrid is a waste
> of money.  Any cheap econobox is gong to do better than hybrids in overall
> costs.
> >
> > If you spend all your time in short trips around town and sitting in
> traffic-jams in nice weather, the hybrid is the way to go.  A plug-in
> hybrid even better.
>
>
> This ^^^
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/forumsUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:33:23 -0800

On 1/29/2013 7:07 AM, John Miller wrote:
> are compromised for the three-hundie buyer, but I'm not and I don't 
> like them.   And the shape suffers somewhat (not as bad as a Merc CLS, 
> but enough that even my car-ignorant sister-in-law would notice) from 

You know, I've been friends for a long time with a Camry person. She's 
had the last four generations of them. And I have to agree--I like each 
successive generation less and less. The last one was the car that made 
me finally understand what everyone was talking about when they talked 
about a 'transportation appliance', but I agree with you that the 
comfort factor seems to go down each time too. But that's a personal 
preference. Clearly she likes them, or she wouldn't keep buying them.

I've liked all the Priuses I've been in, but that might just be because 
I want to like them. Dunno.

Scott

[email-masked]

---

From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:41:34 -0800

On 1/29/2013 8:47 AM, Mike Rambour wrote:
> screaming at 8,000RPM inches behind me, I might get better mileage but 
> I can't stop listening to it.  When my friend drives with me, we get 
> to work with huge smiles and start off the workday with a smile, no 
> matter how bad a day I had at work, just walking out to the parking 
> lot and seeing my car lifts my spirits, fire it up and my smile is back.

You know...I have to agree with this too. I somewhat reluctantly bought 
a CTS-V to replace my totaled Jetta TDI. I wanted another one just like 
the Jetta but couldn't find it and bought the CTS-V almost on a whim. 
I'd always wanted one, but it never really seemed like a mature decision.

I really kind of hate to admit this on an open forum, but I sometimes 
find myself revving the engine just to hear it after I start it. Like a 
five year-old. It's pretty lame. There might be occasional giggling, too.

I also, uh, frequently take advantage of the engine and chassis to and 
from work, the grocery store, to pick up the kid...wherever.

The only drawbacks are the abysmal gas mileage and the latent nagging 
fear that I had better keep a better eye out for police cruisers. You 
can get to 80 m.p.h. very, very easily and it won't feel like much at all.

Um, not that I do that. Ever.

But the car's a joy. I might still buy another really nice mileage 
car...but I don't think I'll be without a car like the CTS-V again. It's 
just too...fun...to give up.

Scott

[email-masked]

---

From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:45:23 -0800

> comparable to what was the norm in Toyota-label products in the early 

I don't know if I'd agree with that completely. We had a '93 Camry. It 
almost made non-Toyota people out of us.

I'd say the current ones seem to be at least as good as that car. Then 
again, I no longer have a Toyota, I just get them as rentals. Maybe they 
don't hold up anymore.

Our '83 Corolla, on the other hand, well, I'm still looking for one of 
those. Really. If anyone sees an '83 Corolla SR-5, email me.

Scott

[email-masked]

---

From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:51:28 -0800

> If you spend all your time in short trips around town and sitting in traffic-jams in nice weather, the hybrid is the way to go.  A plug-in hybrid even better.

That's what I meant to say with my original post. Phil can just post for 
me from now on.

My commute at the time was two miles of neighborhoods, five miles on the 
interstate, then a hundred yards to the office. That's the sort of 
environment where a Pruis wouldn't beat a non-hybrid.
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

---

From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:59:14 -0800

> real cars, even though they are cheaper.

For a while I was getting a lot of 2009-and-later Sonatas from Avis.

They are REALLY nice cars. I am surprised each time. I far prefer them 
to Camrys. Just nicer to drive, nicer interior, better looking, everything.

The only thing that kept me away from them when I went shopping was an 
ex-girlfriend's '90-something Excel.

That car was worse than a Yugo. Yes, it's been twenty years. If I have 
to go car shopping again, I'll probably stop at the Hyundai dealer. 
Especially now that they've got a 400 h.p. V-8 (or something like that I 
saw in a car magazine recently).

If Ford would kindly drop an Ecoboost V-8 in a Taurus, give it 
rear-wheel drive and roll out the new S.H.O., I'd be there already. The 
new Tauruses are really nice too.

I can remember my older relatives insisting they'd NEVER buy a Honda or 
Toyota because 'the Japanese built garbage'. I think the Koreans were 
just a few decades behind them.
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

---

From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:01:57 -0800

On 1/29/2013 10:12 AM, Mike Rambour wrote:
>  can we keep the my dick is bigger than your dick discussion out of 
> the hybrid discussion ?
>

I'll admit it, I laughed. :-)

> ball joints, they gave me a Porsche Panamera Hybrid to drive for the week

"Porsche hybrid" is sacrilege to even utter. The horror.

Someone somewhere ought to be smacked around for that.
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

---

From: Steven Trovato <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:08:27 -0500

My first thought was wow, it takes a week to do maintenance and ball 
joints?  My second thought was wow, you get a Porsche as a loaner?  I 
guess I live in a different universe.

-Steve Trovato
[email-masked]

At 01:12 PM 1/29/2013, Mike Rambour wrote:
>  When my car was in the shop for its annual maintenance and new 
> front ball joints, they gave me a Porsche Panamera Hybrid to drive 
> for the week, it was a nice car but still not fun to drive.

[email-masked]

---

From: Mike Rambour <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:37:10 -0800

I am sure it did not take a week but my dealer is 110 miles away, so I 
dropped off my car on Saturday and picked it up next Saturday.

  And, the Porsche was a 2012 model with 718 miles on it when I took it 
and the window sticker in the glovebox said $122k MSRP, I WAS living in 
a different universe that entire week. They have 5 of them for loaners, 
3 hybrids, 2 non hybrids, my wife chose it based on color nothing else.

     mike

On 01/29/2013 02:08 PM, Steven Trovato wrote:
>> week, it was a nice car but still not fun to drive.
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: John Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:42:16 -0800

> 3 hybrids, 2 non hybrids, my wife chose it based on color nothing else.

Did you evaluate how many sacks of concrete or fertilizer you can get 
into a Panamera?

It is, after all, a hatchback...which is at least something they got 
right in the design of that car.

We've got a bunch of Tesla Model S running around here, and every time I 
look at it I think "man, what was Porsche thinking with the Panamera?"

Tesla's gonna sell a bunch of those things on looks alone.

John.

[email-masked]

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From: Doug Braun <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:48:25 -0500

Worse than "Porsche SUV"?

Doug

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Scott <[email-masked]>wrote:

> ______________

[email-masked]

---

From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:03:35 -0800

That's like 1(a) and 1(b) of "things someone can get sent to hell for". :-)

On 1/29/2013 3:48 PM, Doug Braun wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Scott <[email-masked] 
>
>

[email-masked]

---

From: Mike Rambour <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:09:08 -0800

Hey, it was a nice car for some soccer mom that does not want to think 
while she drives.

  My wife even said there was only 2 things wrong with it.

  1. the price was about $90k too high
  2. the name plate on the front said Porsche

  but other than that, it was a nice car, it did its loaner duty very well.

     mike

  On 01/29/2013 07:03 PM, Scott wrote:
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: "Eric J Russell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:15:43 -0500 a=P2oOn6vrs4wA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:17 a=4fmrQz1SAAAA:8 a=FKzjjPoZctwJ96SxmAYA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=eQcYxy5dT-UA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:117

From: "Mike Rambour" 

> my wife chose it based on color nothing else.

http://www.funny-page.net/detail-699.html 

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

[email-masked]

---

From: John Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:26:16 -0800

> just a few decades behind them.

In California Toyota took over the Chevrolet-position as the 'default 
car purchase of the car-ignorant' somewhere in the '80s.

As far as I'm concerned Honda kinda elbowed them to second-banana a 
decade later and Toyota's never really caught up, though there's a fair 
bit to dislike about some of Honda's recent products as well.

Honda went through a decade of even worse material quality than Toyota 
though they've mostly recovered from that, and the current Civic is too 
fat and too weird (and I think it's suffered in the marketplace for it.)

But Honda usually manages to put a coat of polish on the driving 
behavior of their products that most other manufacturers can't manage. 
  Even truly hideous, ugly Hondas and Acuras usually drive really well.

John.

[email-masked]

---

From: Shannah Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:39:54 -0800

I got rid of my Acura TSX because I
got really tired of the electrical problems.

Having the stereo (radio or CD, didn't matter)
cut out intermittently just added insult to injury.

Acura replaced my navi system 3 times, to
no avail.  It still had problems.

Shannah

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:26 PM, John Miller <[email-masked]> wrote:

> In California Toyota took over the Chevrolet-position as the 'default car
> purchase of the car-ignorant' somewhere in the '80s.
>
> As far as I'm concerned Honda kinda elbowed them to second-banana a decade
> later and Toyota's never really caught up, though there's a fair bit to
> dislike about some of Honda's recent products as well.
>
> though they've mostly recovered from that, and the current Civic is too fat
> and too weird (and I think it's suffered in the marketplace for it.)
>
> But Honda usually manages to put a coat of polish on the driving behavior
> of their products that most other manufacturers can't manage.  Even truly
> hideous, ugly Hondas and Acuras usually drive really well.
>
> John.
>

[email-masked]

---

From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 23:45:10 -0800

My mom and sister-in-law both had Acura TLs.

Maybe the worst cabin wear I've seen in a car since...well, I can't 
remember when. The dash cracked, the trim wore through, all the surfaces 
besides the seats looked wretched less than a year in. Man that car wore 
bad. They have this fake aluminum trim that looked good for about a 
week. I spent the last year of that car's life trying to find the 
replacement trim parts because it looked so bad.

Terrible gas mileage for its other factors. I was always surprised about 
that. For how fast it slurped petrochemicals, I would expect it to be A 
LOT faster. It wasn't a slug, but it never impressed me.

And for as big as it was outside, it always felt cramped inside.

On the other hand, I thought it looked great from the outside, and they 
definitely got the exhaust note right. But I won't be looking at any 
Acuras pretty much ever. Good-looking and -sounding car I thought. But 
I'd never buy or recommend one.

On 1/29/2013 8:26 PM, John Miller wrote:
> decade later and Toyota's never really caught up, though there's a 
> fair bit to dislike about some of Honda's recent products as well.
>
> though they've mostly recovered from that, and the current Civic is 
> too fat and too weird (and I think it's suffered in the marketplace 
> for it.)
>

[email-masked]

---

From: John Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:24:10 -0800

> replacement trim parts because it looked so bad.

The funny thing is...and I hate to put it this way...most of what we 
have to complain about 'Japanese' cars is a function of their now being 
built in the US (or at least North America) with parts from the same 
suppliers that serve the Detroit makes.

John.

[email-masked]

---

From: Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 07:04:32 -0500

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:24 AM, John Miller <[email-masked]> wrote:
> The funny thing is...and I hate to put it this way...most of what we have to
> complain about 'Japanese' cars is a function of their now being built in the
> US (or at least North America) with parts from the same suppliers that serve
> the Detroit makes.

I would wager that each part is spec'ed separately, and that there are
different price points for each part and each end manufacturer.
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]