From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 1 14:56:24 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E53B640E30 for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2013 14:56:24 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.40]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A9540E1C for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2013 14:56:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta14.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.60]) by qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ilpp1k0011HpZEsA4ltm08; Tue, 01 Jan 2013 21:53:46 +0000 Received: from [10.0.0.3] ([67.164.21.216]) by omta14.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id iltl1k00B4fjmw38altlNw; Tue, 01 Jan 2013 21:53:45 +0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 13:53:43 -0800 From: Bob Spidell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: Shop-Talk s=q20121106; t=1357077226; bh=shDBh2s/LY/IV7SvMefgoCt6VTIg7beBUwuMMu2HMjI=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=DnyErAde5fz7Tf2/j1PQ2dhXDBtH+T4eM9jS2vyTiRD4J2ydzSk5tzcGg7bA3kiNa 2wnG51Fe11DhW8/JnLjKTggTSrtAadNisd46iXs/+JJEztKzpuhCRcnyqvEMQNdpWQ A+4ABBwTQzZa9w6hsPDUMicCn0MxVWwjd/zEypGEURQrgMM59p9L3N3CTh8Ue9Yrsx ENByN0lcLVaaCuR+pPf5gtCWbx9wvbSAJ61b6vJO8kV9J9f5fxhjE+DLxW10Vlrux1 Hfxwwy6KOaT6CgTRO54oGEFdGuc//JGGnOhLEaOpUBgxtH3iOM3AF39ohfWA4+1X88 bn6zpi5T4NtQw== Subject: [Shop-talk] HVLP Paint Guns Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Any auto paint experts out there? I've been researching, practicing, etc. for a while and would appreciate any tips. We've been painting with a Harbor Freight HVLP; their 'best' model (quality is relative, I know). My question: Is it worth investing in a top quality gun and, if so, which brand (DeVilbiss, Iwata, etc.). I know preparation, mixture, technique, etc. is more important than anything, but assuming I've learned a little in 40-50 hours of painting will a better gun help? In particular, I watch the 'pros' paint on various car shows and it seems like they always get a much wider spray pattern than I can get with the HF gun at any pressure or nozzle setting. Also, the pros seem to move more quickly than I usually do--if I just 'mist' the paint on I get a grainy finish. Is this due to the gun, or something else? We're backyard painters, so we know we'll never get booth quality, but, is a better gun worth an extra $300 or so? We have several projects to paint so I could justify the cost, given we're saving thousands and will get reasonable quality (albeit with a lot of extra sanding). We're shooting PPG Omni, single stage only. TIA, Bob -- ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell@comcast.net ******************************************************************* _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 1 15:05:46 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 641F140EA4 for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2013 15:05:46 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail940c35.nsolutionszone.com (mail940c35.nsolutionszone.com [209.235.152.130]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E300040E1C for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2013 15:02:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from EricJRussellPC (99-194-27-8.dyn.centurytel.net [99.194.27.8]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail940c35.nsolutionszone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id r01LxudS012772; Tue, 1 Jan 2013 21:59:57 GMT From: "Eric J Russell" To: "Bob Spidell" , "Shop-Talk" References: <50E35AE7.80205@comcast.net> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 16:59:16 -0500 a=wXb-r_mCx7gA:10 a=P2oOn6vrs4wA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:17 a=C_IRinGWAAAA:8 a=aQS4T1oIxkgLXa4IdgIA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:117 reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] HVLP Paint Guns Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Is there a technical school local to you? They often have adult/evening classes whereby you can get access to things like a spray booth and pro-quality equipment. Even if you still want to do the painting in your backyard you might be able to try out some different models of equipment to see how they compare to your eL-Cheapo HF unit. Eric Russell Mebane, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Spidell" > My question: Is it worth investing in a top quality gun and, if so, which > brand (DeVilbiss, Iwata, etc.). > We're backyard painters, so we know we'll never get booth quality, but, is > a better gun worth an extra $300 or so? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 1 16:28:33 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F254B406B2 for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2013 16:28:32 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vc0-f170.google.com (mail-vc0-f170.google.com [209.85.220.170]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B91C4065B for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2013 16:28:22 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vc0-f170.google.com with SMTP id fl11so14056809vcb.29 for ; Tue, 01 Jan 2013 15:25:54 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=1fo/FbRCnFpajGG6Lz8mrrOANZ2qMFmzPtl+ORQiayI=; b=pimfREzbkMyXAtLFl91/MeQA+R1njPsLXEe0iU2HjbsvU2qKlKHTgrHvdxGtKHfxbb PmdcPqbAIRS4BXnADSPMh+792sXXDLmj2B+c0uySJgAcicVgAtzmOOKKfHKUFLQbX1rg NL49TYh1mmDAoD5DBfvMWNK0nHM1fC+IxW9v6e6GeCSjkd6vSQolNHjd8Cd6XbPL9C4L QYJoBSNqTE6c51dplakTqrtycKBrSZrjSOlTcTRxZzLgDt/0/ICgnZWG3iKlTWx0wYYh 6EHqoYY744Q5zYLB5UEaGEpN3TZ0xwbuSSpgIvMCVIMpzH+jKkEaXOtefzAPPKhWu2yN iUIA== Received: by 10.52.19.172 with SMTP id g12mr59834178vde.14.1357082754018; Tue, 01 Jan 2013 15:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.64.15 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Jan 2013 15:25:53 -0800 (PST) References: <50E35AE7.80205@comcast.net> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 18:25:53 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: Bob Spidell , Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] HVLP Paint Guns Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have painted (with single-stage AU) a couple of cars over the last 2-3 years, using the classic purple HF gun for primer and some topcoat, and a DeVilbiss Finish Line gun for most topcoats. My impression is that technique is more important than the choice of gun (unless you are trying to use a terrible gun). One criteria for pros is the speed of painting. For hobby use that is not so relevant. In my experience, the most common error is not turning the paint flow up high enough, or moving too fast for the paint flow you have set. This will guarantee orange-peel. The second biggest issue is not using a consistent pattern, which may give ou orange-peel or runs at edges or corners, where you didn't use the right moves. If all you painted were medium-size flat rectangles, it would be easy to get even coverage... Doug > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Spidell" > > My question: Is it worth investing in a top quality gun and, if so, which >> brand (DeVilbiss, Iwata, etc.). >> We're backyard painters, so we know we'll never get booth quality, but, >> is a better gun worth an extra $300 or so? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 3 15:52:20 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C90640407 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:52:20 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plsmtpa07-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa07-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.235]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id B2969403B9 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:52:07 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 15546 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2013 22:49:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (24.113.13.208) by p3plsmtpa07-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (173.201.192.235) with ESMTP; 03 Jan 2013 22:49:28 -0000 From: "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA" To: "Shop Talk" Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 14:49:27 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] shop business software Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Since Ibm looking for some cheap or free software for my one man business (so that I can spend more time in my shop) I suspect that many others have been in the same position. I hope that some can share with me what youbve learned. I am retired and now have a very small one man business and would like to get better organized by utilizing some of the free or very low cost business software. I need to track customer orders usually with payments, shipments, purchase orders, payables and other misc. expenses. I do not need any employee salaries, etc. Your feedback is appreciated. Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 3 15:59:41 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E1B4043E for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:59:41 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FEF8403DA for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:59:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from mark.bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by bradakis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF96A136B for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:57:49 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 15:57:48 -0700 From: Mark J Bradakis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120315 Firefox/11.0 SeaMonkey/2.8 To: Shop Talk References: <4F9C0186A25B483A9788A90B4EE10413@StevePC> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] shop business software Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net You may want to look at freshbooks.com and see if it fits your needs. mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 3 17:53:45 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DE4040E1B for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 17:53:45 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm6.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm6.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.133]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B40B40529 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 17:53:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.44.97] by nm6.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jan 2013 00:50:56 -0000 Received: from [98.138.84.53] by tm2.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jan 2013 00:50:56 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp110.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jan 2013 00:50:56 -0000 s=s1024; t=1357260656; bh=WKtToUiyT8vwuzQh1BspsstI+x2z73S0+VgIJRzgKJc=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Reply-To:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language; b=wF0xdjldtoXK3YK4+Ffv4p4/H0hlrcxJI3jAdcfGcIfSxEN3kU4+7VPMLdLVub/N1qRIjKaHtgpJVWqjRZMBEvRRiDQq2ol11czGOi6me5G2WcSgYQZ7nn+2xY113MMJc9BwAvStqxDjn+b+fwvX+ULmh73nbGlL9gohMkKkZHY= Pu20F2hzq83Quzh5yvEqsyWyKYCXHY4bV.qAVoJ5FNjWCZl.gL.obiRPHmd. PiC8NzG9rXBTf3f_UUSLzv7oGrOHa9xRa9INRn3A6mAzGWUpYTHWY_SNac5j 0o.2P97tfltPCq1wVXMWYiDYx77gH7Wa7YI1DzsHQtkjDa0wIMZuyjeHHo3q ZXAM4q9Ar5NOAxxU6SNPpcto.H8vih_4jRC5zYldjWa8jEyTuQviFt_kEB4M j4m.g8LU7AhsDAEJKBSJymqSRLDBwc_9gBfNcUwrWqXfr9.MpaLyTI0a8Se9 sO1JVMn7BeKulFl8C1zRJsxcEk_K7PqamayydDJqzmFs5ytbB0dGebZf6Mwv XgyBM3k1HGG7._w5Lh.cnjZUcwVGCj0S36tMiSruFA4VI5dJOssyUpZaV9m1 7zL9RToEbvcQgCRP4Pp_fmGgXIshY Received: from Karl (kvacek@75.22.31.68 with login) by smtp110.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 03 Jan 2013 16:50:56 -0800 PST From: "Karl Vacek" To: "'Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA'" , "'Shop Talk'" References: <4F9C0186A25B483A9788A90B4EE10413@StevePC> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 18:50:00 -0600 Thread-Index: AQKOXt8RywX7225TWCBLLECGmEj45Ja3bD0w Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] shop business software Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I've used Intuit QuickBooks for nearly 20 years - in fact I alpha and beta test it for them most years. Simple, reasonably-priced, and there are add-ons (if and only if and when you need them) for payroll, credit card processing, and on and on. Remote access via smart phone is also available as a built-in function if you wish. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA Subject: [Shop-talk] shop business software Since Ibm looking for some cheap or free software for my one man business (so that I can spend more time in my shop) I suspect that many others have been in the same position. I hope that some can share with me what youbve learned. I am retired and now have a very small one man business and would like to get better organized by utilizing some of the free or very low cost business software. I need to track customer orders usually with payments, shipments, purchase orders, payables and other misc. expenses. I do not need any employee salaries, etc. Your feedback is appreciated. Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 3 18:19:15 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D3E740EAE for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 18:19:15 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3D9640441 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 18:14:31 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 20:01:18 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 01/03/2013 20:00:19, Serialize complete at 01/03/2013 20:00:19 Subject: [Shop-talk] True "keyless" entry add on Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net OK, I bought a new (to me) GMC Envoy XUV. It's a very versatile truck and I'm really digging it. I've spent a few days adding my "touches" to it, but there is one thing that eludes me, and I was hoping if maybe a car guy here would have the answer. My old Ford explorer had a true "keyless" entry system. This means that it had a number pad on the door and you could unlock the door by putting the code in. Does anyone know if an aftermarket system like this exists? When I do my searches, I only come up with systems that use a remote transmitter to open the door. Here is my thinking, it shouldn't be hard to make this add on. If you have a key pad that has constant power, all it would need is a relay to the electric door lock wires. OR, could I get a system out of a Ford in the junk yard and add it myself? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 3 20:31:20 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B80540E83 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 20:31:20 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.avvanta.com (smtp61.avvanta.com [206.124.128.61]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6BE440563 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 20:31:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail.avvanta.com (localhost.drteeth.p.blarg.net [127.0.0.1]) by mail.avvanta.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F79F3939 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 19:28:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from amdquadcore.racertodd.com (50-46-114-197.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.46.114.197]) by mail.avvanta.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1DCF3938 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 19:28:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 19:28:00 -0800 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net From: Todd Walke mail.megageek.com> localhost.drteeth.p.blarg.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] True "keyless" entry add on Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Found this. Saw the system listed for around $170. I assume you'd have to cut an opening in the door for the keypad. Other thing that would concern me is that in most newer vehicles many systems communicate electronically via CANBUS and any add-on would have to not upset the computers. On my TDI, for example, the door lock unit has several micro switches that report on the state of the lock and handle position and transmit that info to the car. This info is used to activate/set off the alarm, turn on interior lights, etc. I'd want to be darn sure that this sort of item will work in your specific vehicle before shelling out the dough. http://www.keyless.com/vehiclekeyless.htm Pricing from here: This is clever, the "keypad" is behind the windshield so no cutting. Don't know what company makes the system they install or if it can be done by a DIY'er. http://www.enormis.net/products/product?id=56&category_id=6 Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 275,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 382,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 3 20:55:08 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2567440FDC for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 20:55:08 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vb0-f50.google.com (mail-vb0-f50.google.com [209.85.212.50]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F796403E3 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 20:50:00 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vb0-f50.google.com with SMTP id ft2so4453549vbb.37 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 19:47:21 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:mime-version:from:to:subject:importance:date :in-reply-to:references:content-type; bh=A9/jyIMITev73F7JZBoOgohYgrCyiG2J8iEK0uNieJY=; b=ZzwmXhO+BgkaR+1EDkLE9CWrxrru/JYoeL4DtmvYDxhzAyPx3BCvgeUVAbZSykKudh SGZUEufAzDRJ5cFMtmcFUdnHLZgSs6HaEz3Np2EjbTohgIEnyp1+d01OhCPgBoAujRHS 2ZMHVG4e2JLSWfGs+hlOBeJ+lc24g+PsbqZVUgtge28KzdiKjDylDEx8XN9PUxZXUAnd ywn9KS0lH0h4dYCnHB6lqKjy4C6mlUN5M5BHpm+ntmj2xSwHbSPAAXUqK6ytPpxIt2M8 LF4aBY2T6IPzY3n2jc53usKV9YVkgPW22wfTtEmsTk3sSD1K3oZ4ZZkfSxy/v2yC1eB/ 4BYA== a8mr68120355vde.127.1357271241291; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 19:47:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from LatitudeE6400 (ip-64-134-64-150.public.wayport.net. [64.134.64.150]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gl6sm43532802vec.4.2013.01.03.19.47.19 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 03 Jan 2013 19:47:20 -0800 (PST) From: To: =?utf-8?Q?Shop_Talk?= Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 03:47:17 +0000 References: <4F9C0186A25B483A9788A90B4EE10413@StevePC> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] =?utf-8?q?shop_business_software?= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Man, Steve, I hate, hate, HATE QuickBooks, but it might be the best bet in your instance. Itbs not free or even particularly cheap though. if it was me, Ibd use an Access database for the shipping stuff, and see what personal-finance program you can pick up for $19.99 for the accounting part of it. Or get a filing cabinet and a ledger book. But if you go with QuickBooks and need help (or *when* you need help, really) feel free to shoot me an email. Ibll be happy to help. From: Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA Sent: bJanuaryb b3b, b2013 b5b:b49b bPM To: Shop Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] shop business software Since Ibm looking for some cheap or free software for my one man business (so that I can spend more time in my shop) I suspect that many others have been in the same position. I hope that some can share with me what youbve learned. I am retired and now have a very small one man business and would like to get better organized by utilizing some of the free or very low cost business software. I need to track customer orders usually with payments, shipments, purchase orders, payables and other misc. expenses. I do not need any employee salaries, etc. Your feedback is appreciated. Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 3 21:04:31 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E2F40439 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 21:04:31 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dfn.com (mail.dfn.com [74.116.128.7]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2177B40437 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 21:04:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.0.2] [199.83.117.102] by dfn.com with ESMTP (SMTPD-11.5) id fed6007e0e087c13; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 21:01:43 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 21:01:50 -0700 From: Michael Porter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: scott.hall.personal@gmail.com References: <4F9C0186A25B483A9788A90B4EE10413@StevePC> <50e650c8.e6bd3a0a.75c4.ffffb092@mx.google.com> Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] shop business software Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/3/2013 8:47 PM, scott.hall.personal@gmail.com wrote: > Man, Steve, I hate, hate, HATE QuickBooks, but it might be the best bet in your instance. > > > > Itbs not free or even particularly cheap though. > > > > Another possibility might be to just go to sourceforge.net and put "business" into the search bar and see what pops up. Can't cost anything but the time to download and test. All open source. As is Open Office, if one doesn't have Access or M$ Office Suite. Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jan 6 10:03:31 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA073424DD for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 10:03:31 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ea0-f179.google.com (mail-ea0-f179.google.com [209.85.215.179]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91844424C5 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 10:03:20 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ea0-f179.google.com with SMTP id i12so7376878eaa.10 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 09:00:28 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=OHj4EpfZKKD34F6pYsMAjIVYsWHGixtzBireVI8deOs=; b=MW5FZnTy9VsWMvpw73jgFcflYO5Mx6g0Tz52h1R8iDedIYtl8fztoSGvNQ3PFV0lby YDYb9a1mfczv4dYdkvCqVEvjOKvFdSvQESlYO2kPAG/uB1pnj+pLNUXjn5/DgR6GqoGn LK81QhIFDh7W2YZDWVrmdXheo98B1mdfMxMA6i7d+Sv0ZnvdpJZLxvfuuHdMJjLllhT+ LfwwfoIQw5uoiq0vnnoQWj60h2m0z38JWZxA7G92YjPzUlkCM1ppLavuHlRR0snGRlsI 0zCkFxUhRD7tNg8CsaEku3zl5EpvrU1CktqGxBE8ID7Wv4qkWmn0lmooZaGZGFR38ln1 oJlQ== Received: by 10.14.3.195 with SMTP id 43mr160284971eeh.36.1357491628383; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 09:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.155.195 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 09:00:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 11:00:28 -0600 From: David Scheidt To: shop-talk Subject: [Shop-talk] radiator reuse Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net We've got single pipe steam heat. We're also missing a radiator in the bedroom. (the riser is there, just capped off. still has a valve, even.) By coincidence, my brother has replaced a radiator in his house, with a small modern thing. They've got hot water heat (originally two pipe steam). There's no reason I can't remove the air bleed valve, fit an air valve, fit a plug on output on that side, and use it with the single pipe steam, is there? The radiator is a bit smaller than it ought to be, but I can't really beat the price. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jan 6 11:01:55 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE8B42585 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 11:01:55 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F17642555 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 11:01:47 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 12:47:23 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 01/06/2013 12:47:17, Serialize complete at 01/06/2013 12:47:17 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plasma cutting eye protection Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net OK, I've been using my autodarkening welding helmet for my plasma cutting since I got the cutter. It works OK, but I can't see any lines that I make to great cuts. So I watched a video on line and the guy was only using sunglasses. So I got a see of 100% UV protection sunglasses eye protection (not consumer glasses, but actual eye goggles.) They were even in the welding section. Now when I use them for plasma cutting, I can see great. The only problem, my eyes seem to feel like they are getting a little "snow blinded' when I'm done cutting. So my questions are... What should I be using for plasma cutting? Can I still use the glasses without any ill effects? Is there a better way to mark the pieces to be cut so I can see them with my welding helmet? Thanks! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jan 6 11:11:38 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59B9742585 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 11:11:38 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm30.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm30.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.95]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51EF84255A for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 11:07:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.195] by nm30.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jan 2013 18:04:43 -0000 Received: from [68.142.198.105] by tm6.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jan 2013 18:04:43 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp107.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jan 2013 18:04:43 -0000 s=s1024; t=1357495483; bh=NRp/SS3UUMew+PuIyPDTieL6kRKifYjL65EYjpeACes=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=0l9ATgwmC2nSN8qKeJ3nhyUdNjc8qbCpdojqbrxMR6C9RzoMpqJ6cNMxIU+DOFzWqHx40La1XpEMYYgip3TpRzUBazXZTcoZv8RAR9XQMWt8iaVPx93JUERtMx9xuR3FpHkYlwBX1cRd1Hj0rT6JZnqkMUpwVCUbSbFoQcKY7Wg= bzKuznyFt9XDubWttSkLA.bsdBIupLjp2PHz44PfVksJQQhvNpoqChfoD7WJ p.hwTkleBWOCYU9hHe04s2jIYxyNPTfRCTSKhZsBYNbzHMWHkoy5Sym.2VSC Qbkrp5D5UsQ1Cqxp6U5T99Y1CwcqyOqlFuyPq36WEpWYyVJE8VWXHMmqJz4k 2CV0g7Dbi0GekRwoZzRFREl.Y8I7paRg8ye1GcrutKl3rUNlE6xfgQbfw2GN sHUZHL0fg7nhenA9bKQR9K8hVuIlyLoFV5NlpsiZmo8LPYsl4YM14RmnIYSE Qs1inb79hTZKArlZUq44KtT9uzw83d0vlJS8f5zHsUQBJ.F7Qjnt3mBK.C3M C3LBUpoDGOu2wR3uggNYqlOFT0jnRpK1zlwZXwFpwZRzBSNxzLsak4_3Qq5N yy3ViOYQ21sv7PrSf9So- Received: from [192.168.1.67] (shochschild@108.95.144.138 with plain) by smtp107.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 06 Jan 2013 10:04:43 -0800 PST Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 12:04:40 -0600 From: steve hochschild User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] radiator reuse Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Not only will this work, but even better, it gives you a great excuse to buy a mini-lathe! On 1/6/2013 11:00 AM, David Scheidt wrote: > We've got single pipe steam heat. We're also missing a radiator in > the bedroom. (the riser is there, just capped off. still has a valve, > even.) By coincidence, my brother has replaced a radiator in his > house, with a small modern thing. They've got hot water heat > (originally two pipe steam). There's no reason I can't remove the air > bleed valve, fit an air valve, fit a plug on output on that side, and > use it with the single pipe steam, is there? The radiator is a bit > smaller than it ought to be, but I can't really beat the price. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jan 6 11:17:58 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF91425B1 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 11:17:56 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm23.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm23.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.150]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50BD54255A for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 11:17:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.44.96] by nm23.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jan 2013 18:14:53 -0000 Received: from [67.195.14.109] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jan 2013 18:14:53 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp106.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jan 2013 18:14:53 -0000 s=s1024; t=1357496093; bh=aHvqnVxE2EXWDfQTB5CUuL7C31CZxunFYn+8Q7y+814=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=0+oaxJgpgbUBI+jrmdTRLXHOLNiAmce82HG7xJ374+SMi9KbkvPf/UFYibKvGRyUIck+6nkVqhruSAI1zIJQDJ/uq4l0at8atQ2juvmB+KlUHrx1PHGadZeHVIEQGQe1wxHW4KHvABLXhPI21ExWcPywcpklnH6xTEw2+ZVGDU8= PmGk_3CosylWs12ld56IJzC_lFakuSTZkNSEkmcIV1YinWkWFr0GBJuLl5q2 ZcFiMH94w.LpJDmRDsywCD.VQTO5HsXMiHnXWmXMKZRdyDr.rQQ.mIa21hs3 26iSfCgfwYPKu6qqLxHjx.NQg2F1U_Ddi1guRiSwIqXc1DIXoFiaXPn4YA0g W1bEnvlAARZK0viPSljBmqc4mJzYwvdpFITSQ8PxDr1jked7r_svzTeLx95R QZ7P_7EqbKw25TfZJgW.eSW9awGv94FluwH7ctKsgfQsmdgABtHPO0C0sau5 FR_j2rmUUs_XV9fbZ.hNP_vWZSS5bZW4Cl.kzW20vGGsJ76F3e.TY7XDUBE. U_rZxBFFb5Sk4Bji0pqIGzcwryN.Lh8UFxoYV8_FdKZH4Ll2A.SwdvA6jBM9 U0LzpLndMHeccg4dguep2OsNg8OobQOUJ.4Qn2Ju6TRmTVUG2PUAI.FyXY14 FY3naALxaGgdAL.wx77qtWCGllax6WIYGc2iGUQ-- Received: from [192.168.1.67] (shochschild@108.95.144.138 with plain) by smtp106.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 06 Jan 2013 10:14:53 -0800 PST Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 12:14:50 -0600 From: steve hochschild User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: "shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net >> 'Team shop-talk'" References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Plasma cutting eye protection Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I use my Miller Elite auto-darkening helmet dialed back to about a 5, myself. I also have a grade 5 face shield I use sometimes. What grade are your goggles? I bet they are two... I use a soapstone marker, but more helpfully, I hung a very bright halogen (Harbor Freight) work light over the table where I am cutting. It helps a lot by eliminating some of the contrast and glare between the point source of the nozzle and the surface of the piece. On 1/6/2013 11:47 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote: > OK, I've been using my autodarkening welding helmet for my plasma cutting > since I got the cutter. It works OK, but I can't see any lines that I > make to great cuts. > > So I watched a video on line and the guy was only using sunglasses. So I > got a see of 100% UV protection sunglasses eye protection (not consumer > glasses, but actual eye goggles.) They were even in the welding section. > > Now when I use them for plasma cutting, I can see great. The only > problem, my eyes seem to feel like they are getting a little "snow > blinded' when I'm done cutting. > > So my questions are... > > What should I be using for plasma cutting? > Can I still use the glasses without any ill effects? > Is there a better way to mark the pieces to be cut so I can see them with > my welding helmet? > > Thanks! > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shochschild@att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jan 6 13:33:29 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03431427E2 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 13:33:29 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF99425C5 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 13:32:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (host-173-246-195-102.morrisbb.com [173.246.195.102] (may be forged)) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r06KTmfY054723; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 15:29:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 15:29:44 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: eric@megageek.com, Shop Talk List References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Plasma cutting eye protection Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/6/2013 12:47 PM, eric@megageek.com wrote: > Now when I use them for plasma cutting, I can see great. The only > problem, my eyes seem to feel like they are getting a little "snow > blinded' when I'm done cutting. If you're noticing effects, or have that gritty / itchy eye thing, then you're DEFINITELY doing damage, and are very correct to be seeking better protection. Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for you. A friend & I did welding classes at the local community college a few years ago, and he went crazy with it, and now has a Miller Dynasty MIG / TIG box and plasma cutter in his garage now. You can get helmets and glasses / goggles with different darkness ratings. Our school supplies list spec'ed both with suggested numbers, but I don't recall what they were. I'd hit your local welding supply shop and see what they have or suggest. The friend I mentioned is a rather large guy, and spent a few hours on a welding project -- with some belly hanging out from under his shirt. And ended up with a nasty sunburn "belt" around him from the UV exposure. You DON'T want that hitting your eyeballs! -wc _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jan 6 14:00:35 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4DD54280F for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 14:00:35 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0DDD427D8 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 13:57:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 12:54:31 -0800 id 000000000028001E.0000000050E9E487.0000683E Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 12:54:00 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <50E9BF1A.2080101@att.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Plasma cutting eye protection Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > I use a soapstone marker, but more helpfully, I hung a very bright > halogen (Harbor Freight) work light over the table where I am cutting. > It helps a lot by eliminating some of the contrast and glare between the > point source of the nozzle and the surface of the piece. Yep. Two or three of 'em if possible. For me having enough light on the work is the difference between a good weld or cut and a messy, wandering disaster. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jan 6 23:03:15 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B4B4285A for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 23:03:15 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from itonami.pair.com (itonami.pair.com [209.68.2.178]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id EDFB740E20 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 23:03:02 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 62388 invoked by uid 3198); 7 Jan 2013 06:00:07 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 7 Jan 2013 06:00:07 -0000 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 01:00:07 -0500 (EST) From: David Hillman To: eric@megageek.com References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (BSF 1266 2009-07-14) Cc: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Plasma cutting eye protection Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Sun, 6 Jan 2013, eric@megageek.com wrote: > OK, I've been using my autodarkening welding helmet for my plasma cutting > since I got the cutter. It works OK, but I can't see any lines that I > make to great cuts. What is the "autodarkening helmet", specifically? I think you need a higher quality one. That doesn't necessarily need to be really expensive. I use a Speedglas 9002X and, while I rarely plasma cut by hand since I got my CNC table, I didn't have much trouble seeing when I did. I also setup guides, straight-edges or whatnot, which make following lines a lot easier. The difference between what you can see with a high-quality hood, versus a cheap one is alarming. I had a low-end Jackson-made hood previously, and thought it was fine... until I got a Speedglas. Now I can see the arc, and the details of the adjacent puddle, and work piece, while tigging for example. Immediately made my welds better when I switched hoods. I kicked myself for wasting time with the low-end one. With very rare exceptions, if your body hurts after doing something, that means stop doing it ;) -- David Hillman _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 8 17:11:25 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21E124051D for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2013 17:11:25 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F244044B for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2013 17:11:09 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 18:59:06 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 01/08/2013 18:56:25, Serialize complete at 01/08/2013 18:56:25 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ignition switch Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net OK, if you remember, I was asking how to disable the key "beeping" for a 2004 GMC Envoy. Well, I was installing a new radio, and started digging into the dash. Before I knew it, I had the entire steering column apart. So, I got to thinking, there is a switch in the ignition to tell the computer when the key is in it. If I cut that wire, it should fix that beep for good. The only problem is, I can't figure out all the wires coming out of it. Can anyone either point me to an exploded view of this key switch (or if you can send me a PDF if you have an electronic image of it.) Or if you know which wire I need to cut, that would be great! TIA for any assistance. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 8 17:50:52 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5FCF40539 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2013 17:50:52 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-lb0-f170.google.com (mail-lb0-f170.google.com [209.85.217.170]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0BFF4051D for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2013 17:50:43 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-lb0-f170.google.com with SMTP id j14so844268lbo.15 for ; Tue, 08 Jan 2013 16:47:39 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=E1+SfCGVUqWxaXH+51kc+7v2UJUp3hF6ssyFw4AQCeA=; b=KC1kp4lMY2XLkFDGapBw6IAWsvnLDr9xGCbIlcy5N26YGGMXRt4MUjvrTJY3Anp42h h/ybJ/4MMQsduEp5s031tX2dxt1hWYkgmWH3foCARqwRRZxWsbPi6uqonGMtGZRMUyag jsTwPsloU9MSFHl5qUz7sZ01fc/cDMIDtv+NNDdnrkzjU9xT6xswvYVu8ifnh+rnSZvG MUgUzPmTyZSG3UGBq1snl04pF1+HoGbhEYy/ERPoIAesghBUAnvtA9oixSs5R17Qlt8P Rcpeyt9etohAaGBAikeqVZ3uOOb/wPL1qeVGH+aaxjx1xH1RpPUWFrevLxsisZnlHH1R ubtA== Received: by 10.152.162.1 with SMTP id xw1mr64023968lab.3.1357692459366; Tue, 08 Jan 2013 16:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.81.38 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Jan 2013 16:47:19 -0800 (PST) References: From: Peter Murray Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 19:47:19 -0500 To: Shop-Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ignition switch Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net That was a problem I solved in my 2005 Subaru Outback by finding the source of the beep, drilling into the box that contained the sounder and applying a bit of RTV to the open side of the sounder so it is much quieter. -Peter On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 6:59 PM, wrote: > OK, if you remember, I was asking how to disable the key "beeping" for a > 2004 GMC Envoy. > > Well, I was installing a new radio, and started digging into the dash. > Before I knew it, I had the entire steering column apart. So, I got to > thinking, there is a switch in the ignition to tell the computer when the > key is in it. If I cut that wire, it should fix that beep for good. > > The only problem is, I can't figure out all the wires coming out of it. > > Can anyone either point me to an exploded view of this key switch (or if > you can send me a PDF if you have an electronic image of it.) > > Or if you know which wire I need to cut, that would be great! > > TIA for any assistance. > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 8 19:44:32 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13DF340562 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2013 19:44:32 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B022F40520 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2013 19:44:12 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 21:29:13 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 01/08/2013 21:29:27, Serialize complete at 01/08/2013 21:29:27 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ignition switch Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I thought about that, but this GMC uses the radio speakers for the chime. It also is every other chime (lights, door open, etc) which I still wanted. Here is what I did. I disconnected the battery and rang out all the wires on the key. There were two wires by themselves that has no connectivity without the key and a closed circuit with the key in the switch. BINGO. I cut one of the wires and all is well! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Peter Murray Sent by: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net 01/08/2013 19:36 To Shop-Talk List cc Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Ignition switch That was a problem I solved in my 2005 Subaru Outback by finding the source of the beep, drilling into the box that contained the sounder and applying a bit of RTV to the open side of the sounder so it is much quieter. -Peter > " _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 11 16:50:01 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A12340444 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:50:01 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm24-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm24-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.143]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED2A40421 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:49:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.201] by nm24.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Jan 2013 23:46:33 -0000 Received: from [98.139.244.53] by tm12.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Jan 2013 23:46:33 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp115.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Jan 2013 23:46:33 -0000 s=s1024; t=1357947993; bh=GRBMtYDAE6oAzjbaVDGZlw6E3Cb5pvka2CM3slf0MSo=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language; b=bqsR8aboS/0FSs1R3f4QchGIc9QSc5EnHZV7m1HVTYHxwiZuvGY5w1lSs7K5M3KmUAfESqAHsvUGSAJf/Q31tBJE+ckuA8PHSS3X5o5MnwaZWI2+fmiMXId+c+w01PAGCy/pe1sQBG2nXX+fFRGRWImWepDv1k3/6kcpkQqUA/0= X31cg3l48DoT_l3n8J8LNeemdKVEwRoTZrvDItzjA5ALMXpGz1UUd2eHp2oL XHIZl0mlDssgcy8jIv0Obt4lWq0RBjwRjFOl84dwzufRxj8jAzFa6CN2g0IU QZpJgrMYlAmzV3gRw1NhN8tx.8aQ2_WBCizoSFf5HJ2mpxxOmpeBoliWa.9Z 2fj4hoDqeU1LPqOuBM9pE6tKu_jZMVb.BLNdy_4UWVTlPwd5hFJlCQzQ8x5u cIe13FZ3gXtDxdZZ8zAg2Do2yMSiXC6_Gu.wA2Y5dYBmUK_nsI7FrKxr_YsJ Sgnko.EgQ1TGbP6B_2c9EnRcZS5uj2vtqi7KbBqNx7uvVAaZVWlMdzwxNoIE 7DTaPpaDhPqVBTuJB7Rorv6uTE90mL5IboYdmJirDXJOo3vokwqOvvYXpzrV 54PSMGhq8N6cpdYP68ecOXzyz64UhXw-- Received: from Karl (kvacek@75.22.31.68 with login) by smtp115.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2013 15:46:33 -0800 PST From: "Karl Vacek" To: Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:46:31 -0600 Thread-Index: Ac3wU7IDjTIxXQwRQ6y9t2km9ddVjw== Content-Language: en-us Subject: [Shop-talk] Smart Level advice needed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I'm going to buy a smart level - probably the M-D SmartTool. I have the need for rigging my plane, and of course I've wanted one for years. I considered the Stabila too, but didn't see any advantage other than twice the warrantee at twice the price. I believe M-D was the first one to manufacture these, at least 20 years ago. Once upon a time they were sold with an interchangeable module, so you could buy the electronics once and move the module from a 2' level to a 4' level, or just use the bare module. For whatever reason, they aren't interchangeable any more. You now have to buy a bare module, or a 2' or 4' level with the module permanently mounted. I think I should buy the 2' one, which I see as more convenient and the right size for most of what I do. It will fit directly into many places where a 4' level is just too long (door headers, window sills and tops, etc.). The length shouldn't diminish the accuracy any - the modules are all the same. I figure that if I really need a 4' smart level, I can hold the 2' one on my 4' bubble level, using the shorter one for its accuracy and the longer one for its length. But I hesitate - because if some is good (a 2' level), then more is better (a 4' level) ;-) Seriously, do some of you guys who use this stuff every day have any advice? Thanks in advance! Karl PS - in case anyone ever considers buying the much-less-expensive 24" electronic level from Sears - don't. It's just not repeatable. I can measure my granite countertops and get different readings in the same spot moments apart. Just lift one end and set it back down again, and it may well read different by a couple of tenths of a degree or more. The joy of a low sale price was rapidly diminished by the POS nature of the product. Assault is a behavior, not a device. 64,999,997 firearm owners killed no one yesterday. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 11 17:08:45 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2A44043E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:08:45 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095A540322 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:07:32 -0700 (MST) Authentication-Results: cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com smtp.user=tr3driver@ca.rr.com; auth=pass (LOGIN) a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=AQSgndlXRLoA:10 a=9Z4NcmVYAAAA:8 a=jLIyj9aHsObWqPyBNKUA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=4Nsp7CLNYrEA:10 a=hFwcADQ33CgJV9lcXZw7+A==:117 Received: from [10.127.132.110] ([10.127.132.110:62770] helo=cdptpa-web19-z01) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTPA id D6/92-04946-F78A0F05; Sat, 12 Jan 2013 00:04:15 +0000 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 19:04:15 -0500 From: Randall To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Sensitivity: Normal Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Smart Level advice needed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net ---- Karl Vacek wrote: > Just lift one end and set it back down again, and it may > well read different by a couple of tenths of a degree or more. Sounds defective to me, my 3' bubble level is better than that. (0.2 degrees over 4 feet is more than 1/8") Take it back. Sorry, can't help with the smart level. Around here, even if it is dead nuts today, there'll likely be an earthquake next week and it won't be any more. I probably use the 8" torpedo level as much as the 3 footer, though. Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 11 17:48:50 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55DF940527 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:48:50 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F0340439 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:48:42 -0700 (MST) Authentication-Results: cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com smtp.user=tr3driver@ca.rr.com; auth=pass (LOGIN) a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=AQSgndlXRLoA:10 a=9Z4NcmVYAAAA:8 a=jLIyj9aHsObWqPyBNKUA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=4Nsp7CLNYrEA:10 a=hFwcADQ33CgJV9lcXZw7+A==:117 Received: from [10.127.132.110] ([10.127.132.110:63418] helo=cdptpa-web19-z01) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTPA id 68/2A-25887-422B0F05; Sat, 12 Jan 2013 00:45:24 +0000 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 19:45:24 -0500 From: Randall To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Sensitivity: Normal Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Smart Level advice needed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net ---- Karl Vacek wrote: > Just lift one end and set it back down again, and it may > well read different by a couple of tenths of a degree or more. Sounds defective to me, my 3' bubble level is better than that. (0.2 degrees over 4 feet is more than 1/8") Take it back. Sorry, can't help with the smart level. Around here, even if it is dead nuts today, there'll likely be an earthquake next week and it won't be any more. I probably use the 8" torpedo level as much as the 3 footer, though. Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 11 18:36:26 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABA54043E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:36:26 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ee0-f51.google.com (mail-ee0-f51.google.com [74.125.83.51]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C0440416 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:36:18 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ee0-f51.google.com with SMTP id d17so7958eek.24 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:33:00 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=N84sJiQYO1JKs3EBERsi3WThUfM3exCYzTSV8R8Zan0=; b=Svy5WdDB8kNWjj2zqwHXERdClHgj/wXwW0oIaTNkEoeDxwuxGhyVc/bk3Y8Nnltgn1 Vr8V7Wrtg8loa8A51B4So2geRXYhyHXLceU2KbRdi0nifzqD7+ZiTI8TfqVNB0yYRqjy 8n0sDUYGPggcXpYi8h7GvylUH4Q331zqPXm+lbRfmW0blM7sSy6P7hVgALLkhyu7mRrB ERsPtyve0NZunldonWOMiQdAlRf0APtFv1Yj1kAziOH/kswr70r9zQgVCirUYlWMOzg/ Jv/7WNQK1Qg8RFUQ5xQnJLt7qhTWXCJPVhnPcIg60x/3xNRumjHy1QOO7+4ZNev00HYX 2RDA== Received: by 10.14.213.134 with SMTP id a6mr206331244eep.45.1357954380195; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:33:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.100.142 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:32:30 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Shirley Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 20:32:30 -0500 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Paint Booth/Glove Box Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I've recently reentered the hobby of building model cars and with age comes the desire for greater detail and a higher level of finish. With that in mind I've been thinking about an idea to make a glove box serve as a spray booth. Back in the late 60s I worked at one of the nuclear weapons plants in Oak Ridge, TN. Working in the lab, I spent my fair share of time working in a glove box. If you're not familiar with it, it's a closed environment where you can work on all sorts of nasty materials without contaminating the surrounding area or yourself. Your arms fit into rubber gloves that are attached and sealed. Here's something from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glovebox I'm thinking, why can't the same theory work for an enclosed spray booth. I've drawn up some plans and instead of using the bulky gloves that come on most cabinets, I would use a piece of tire inner tube, maybe off a big truck or something. What I have in mind is cutting out something like a 10" circle and attaching it to the cabinet with some sort of home made flange. Lids off 1 gallon paint cans might work. The center of each 10" cut out would have a small hole about the size of my forearm. I've got a couple of questions. Should it be a down draft, up draft, side draft or back draft booth? Also, I wonder how much flow I'll need to keep the paint overspray from building up and obscuring vision? I typically spray at low pressures like 15-20 psi. Tom Shirley www.sceniccitymiatas.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 11 23:57:23 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5993E40524 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 23:57:23 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.avvanta.com (smtp61.avvanta.com [206.124.128.61]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E7354044A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 23:57:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail.avvanta.com (localhost.pops.p.blarg.net [127.0.0.1]) by mail.avvanta.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2677276CBB for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:53:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from amdquadcore.racertodd.com (50-46-114-197.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.46.114.197]) by mail.avvanta.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A8D276CB8 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:53:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:43:17 -0800 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net From: Todd Walke localhost.pops.p.blarg.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Smart Level advice needed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I bought my SmartTool level years ago with a camber gauge frame. A couple of years ago I bought a 24" level for it - it was called an "extender rail". Can't remember where I got it. These guys show the 48" version. On page 4 they show a combo pack - module, 24" and 48" rails: Search on this site for "smarttool rail", they show both lengths: http://www.aircraft-tool.com Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 276,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 384,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jan 13 08:16:29 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150B340E58 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2013 08:16:29 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm20-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm20-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.29]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16F840411 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2013 08:16:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.195] by nm20.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jan 2013 15:12:50 -0000 Received: from [98.139.244.51] by tm6.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jan 2013 15:12:50 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp113.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jan 2013 15:12:50 -0000 s=s1024; t=1358089970; bh=qHV0DvwqSe1uRtRQh0Xxnjaz3vLfIYsSl11OIoy2Az4=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Reply-To:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language; b=brFA6MCbu4hv7rMMHNESAhon/5dHpYiT19t6z/H73zuNg4dndWt1/vqZboUPqGxGLyQu419HgQbFZ3vbv1jVvvg7q+mAYsFo/1W3cwhVKXXYjCt8WUosaLansxfq2p2QNpjKVSV3y4L78Bqmfav+uaW/WRBam3WhTtKMFkFKHww= KsdceAbOPomrRbeKNOEwNn2_Ek7mGHss_yTLZ4FY7p3_irD.QPI.oHNGL7HZ X__oSpl_nBPsrw5hG_hPb_vXImJ0350fzLf3PYikAaFYgqpNVT2guOvTYgQc aIGE.qb21F5PCFEaHqHVXXnZpJfcVGiIhN_Vcq7qn0WM8nOYKNSfeajdFtcw 6lrvtMPcorCWrW2h7bxzCQoes5FV0PaTyg1zT9JDQOtuhSIrgHvWN3oXb6L. vd7p.4N5_szuOXHbK6o59D__p4KB3UrQ4kaDyMOyuvGx38F9OroklKivLS22 dzPsJPZXov6dONj8xxc.u3l1zFIPDnjltunxG07W4ajmLlJlbiBYils_mmp5 u9DHkhQqlyEo3ZtHJF53jQrwTH1Rsjn7Lyujr5I7Wuy_agcrxmBjlDnol73W yKanR9rSED.0ekcFK_WiP6kCk4AXu_g-- Received: from Karl (kvacek@75.22.31.68 with login) by smtp113.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2013 07:12:50 -0800 PST From: "Karl Vacek" To: "'Todd Walke'" , References: <000101cdf055$e24a77f0$a6df67d0$@ameritech.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20130111223047.00d1b0a8@mail.avvanta.com> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 09:12:45 -0600 Thread-Index: AQHdWywN01TAs8EXW4y/liCGhBNZKJgogB6Q Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Smart Level advice needed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thanks, Todd - I hadn't looked at ATS. I ordered the 24" and 48" levels (extender rails) from them, and the module, magnetic bracket, and protective case from Amazon (better price). I suspect that M-D doesn't offer the "extender rails" any more is because they were made by American Level when it was part of M-D. M-D sold American Level to Empire, and Empire seems to have dropped them from their line. I assume that ATS has some older stock on hand - unless my order is rejected when they try to fill it tomorrow. This might be the last chance to get them. Thanks again! Karl _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Jan 14 08:43:20 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83314247F for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 08:43:20 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm5.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm5.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.206]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD32E42459 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2013 08:43:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.126] by nm5.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jan 2013 15:39:37 -0000 Received: from [98.139.221.53] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jan 2013 15:39:37 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp106.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jan 2013 15:39:37 -0000 s=s1024; t=1358177977; bh=r44r9xI7Zo//06UZVuwc/CKGACqVv/5s/zsgz9jR9Zo=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Reply-To:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language; b=6iADaUXtzIiEOI0ALEGbwQyW/F+FlKcTggRKh2kT8kYMsw/Nm6+u9GhwsUFsiwA5trhaHtW+3BmujgZ5wnn20t5znBv8u6psJNrksbarNRXlKswOD4Y1Eqg+e/dENggibWJIR/+JsaC8D7dJo3d85PK7z4Jxz+3LbPYv2lw9pwk= mQZIzYMXtqr6tbTlYGPC9S5GVBH0v4G_pQrgMy6J8pUVQCvZqGlnX_p.yTuh PqS3QL51qGTwLlbR4BdjMZz.eMqMBz3qvlIhR5KGG5eJ7C.4t8Xx9g7cQjS4 TSb_kyI1pTSvM.CGuNkOGwKgYQ68upDh_gtsLXLJNKf6MUJ.1yrOygasNtL. N6CkDTQzlj5wyGrQzXdPdgTiPTlF.D5hqee8cMKTPiVaQhdwiFVkIdYKhoiP wK9oTmADiszGCKOgOYWYlUXMrEqzZ_Hbv8KyHCRI1wnr5_7yuJas3jSfJb1i ViTNqtmSLG5KUqH4rIb7qnE5p.5DKXPJbeUozWb3OcSJsgE9O8I4IXKinpqW OCNa0ZL8p5LpZAV_JqDK5FRr8jAMrtT2efDBx2pbD17gxYpdny_ONOMGjAMg OW.RjUpgjWkxHIhKoQXw31lBgmPDt Received: from Karl (kvacek@75.22.31.68 with login) by smtp106.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2013 07:39:37 -0800 PST From: "Karl Vacek" To: References: <000101cdf055$e24a77f0$a6df67d0$@ameritech.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20130111223047.00d1b0a8@mail.avvanta.com> <000c01cdf1a0$71c1cc80$55456580$@ameritech.net> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:39:35 -0600 Thread-Index: AQH8gdYqRcLLnur/+0ULSBV/gtdjPAHdWywNAWfO6o6X0a0QsA== Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Smart Level advice needed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Nope - ATS is out of stock and they're no longer available. Maybe there's some old inventory somewhere, but it doesn't look good. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Karl Vacek Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Smart Level advice needed I hadn't looked at ATS. I ordered the 24" and 48" levels (extender rails) from them, and the module, magnetic bracket, and protective case from Amazon (better price). I suspect that M-D doesn't offer the "extender rails" any more is because they were made by American Level when it was part of M-D. M-D sold American Level to Empire, and Empire seems to have dropped them from their line. I assume that ATS has some older stock on hand - unless my order is rejected when they try to fill it tomorrow. This might be the last chance to get them. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 16 10:50:00 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 169804297C for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 10:50:00 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-gg0-f176.google.com (mail-gg0-f176.google.com [209.85.161.176]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7477042827 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 10:49:46 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-gg0-f176.google.com with SMTP id h3so251459gge.7 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 09:46:05 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zaRKGa7Wr2VKvqhSkkUDWhyA48ZIbdZQfg0sN2UVqRg=; b=L/NC8WLcu8dYgtHTEp9WlUCvgM6Fk+epNmf0OnggS5RHS3Ddymp85tKDaXeuIGmjQw UoGmZc830Gop4YaKXMuJ8acuoKbgZufeCV31tOnuPWKT35IWQ3BHi3y3Y8rkyb0DTIr+ 6shb9C+Iz61YGYfZhnq/fF7UkernwE9zwfm0iYQ3taGVkVKw5Mhj1O+iHKuTr1l//rzg p+mfBplkm/zS59S86XKCqKQuBLuoorh2uwxzpT4isr3C4Z/3A7MkZAcls+9+kCiIBKz1 6LLMCNgCyRh58e8k5o44GQFaLIU7GlVW7lyGqNz9zXRvHZy5j+agm0AgHMTMsjDc9ON6 8ojA== q28mr2114962yhm.131.1358358365180; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 09:46:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h37sm17570345anm.10.2013.01.16.09.46.03 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 16 Jan 2013 09:46:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:46:00 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] For my next trick... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I just got a new power supply for my Dell laptop. They come with this ingenious rubber strap to wrap the power cord to the transformer. The whole thing was very--very--well bubble wrapped and taped, and in the course of cutting through the wrap and tape, I cut through the rubber strap. It's been quite the few months. Is there any way to glue or 'weld' the strap back together? It takes a fair amount of tension when it's used. Thanks. Scott _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 16 11:01:48 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA491429CD for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 11:01:48 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm3.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm3.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.204]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76DFD40E20 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 11:01:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.199] by nm3.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jan 2013 17:57:56 -0000 Received: from [98.139.221.55] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jan 2013 17:57:56 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp108.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jan 2013 17:57:56 -0000 s=s1024; t=1358359076; bh=X1xvqXdSZ1B+OHLFEqATckkKZOEhMpCWYxYCgWEenRY=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=hDyE6D4ggF6Sp/FOyu5nG9kMIz53oVALV8CNOvBokYe5PQ03aJbuGbvy9n7bHgNnZN1TKQKyQpvpGT0yfNDMKKS25IYfrpihdhTj+WvJ/iRCPfmJDAU1RNedhZ5MMEIuQxy+LISaSr/kExwV83Vckp+Jo3g9zZszLL1Q7XwSOqo= dxoDOot7o6jKP18g5WH6besOV_htJjzHOhyDEv0d0nsis_px2aLTGdACy.rX pqFsyM9HcS0QanVj0oGdu3tw1NrKIQL87aFvjuTkOWrBphY5vyz4jZg5WeqD BegBHSTxhTlH6Bwv16Ws0FvHUbNVMMCnMIyqsUDXzZOzRjDiA_1ZuZ3OyZCT EIU1j.jcdMl9TbkeIUnrcgiJh67Zooq7w0ShdxyKMXG1YUBTStPWDoZpn4bP .lNcMGcydGBLjOKvgTqKnpqeCk2qsxTghVY8jKndchaob1CEVe83JetxWf6R YXtf4bnv97l_jcSBq0G2EppZpnv2qClLHETWh47M6v17M6izwts2AT.HDDk6 oHOR6k2yttZmyBklFc7IYRj.2MUllLdIt0.j8shQW8KA7.q2_6uKM9kpZXDH kgR43HHEiqJRV1ZlMWiPqMhXu82wBdIu7xVw4b4CzIOO. Received: from john5043a2d406 (jniolon@108.227.226.77 with login) by smtp108.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2013 09:57:56 -0800 PST From: "John Niolon" To: "Scott" , "shop-talk" References: <50F6E758.6060703@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 11:58:17 -0600 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] For my next trick... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net no ideas of a off the shelf product... if you had some original super-glue.... but they've ruined that product.... too many dummies glued their fingers together. if you know someone who can make o-rings from a kit... I think the o-ring adhesive is better than the original super-glue. just a thought.... john ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:46 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] For my next trick... >I just got a new power supply for my Dell laptop. They come with this >ingenious rubber strap to wrap the power cord to the transformer. The whole >thing was very--very--well bubble wrapped and taped, and in the course of >cutting through the wrap and tape, I cut through the rubber strap. > > It's been quite the few months. > > Is there any way to glue or 'weld' the strap back together? It takes a > fair amount of tension when it's used. > > Thanks. > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon@att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 16 12:28:12 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F419540E24 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:28:11 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from gateway11.websitewelcome.com (gateway11.websitewelcome.com [67.18.70.3]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73B9A42832 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:27:39 -0700 (MST) Received: by gateway11.websitewelcome.com (Postfix, from userid 5011) id 4E95B130AC5DB; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:23:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from gator52.hostgator.com (gator52.hostgator.com [184.173.194.222]) by gateway11.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4128E130AC5B7 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:23:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from leexray by gator52.hostgator.com with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1TvYaa-000560-9O; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:23:56 -0600 Received: from 208.87.137.231 ([208.87.137.231]) (proxying for 208.23.240.1) (SquirrelMail authenticated user lee@automate-it.com) by www.automate-it.com with HTTP; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:23:56 -0600 References: <50F6E758.6060703@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:23:56 -0600 From: "Lee Daniels" To: "Scott" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22 with any abuse report /usr/local/cpanel/base/3rdparty/squirrelmail/src/compose.php Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] For my next trick... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I've done the same. Try these: http://goo.gl/rZm8j - on ebay for 99 cents http://goo.gl/eSyo6 - another one for $3.95 Just do a Google search for "dell power rubber strap" and you'll see a bunch of them. > I just got a new power supply for my Dell laptop. They come with this > ingenious rubber strap to wrap the power cord to the transformer. The > whole thing was very--very--well bubble wrapped and taped, and in the > course of cutting through the wrap and tape, I cut through the rubber strap. > > It's been quite the few months. > > Is there any way to glue or 'weld' the strap back together? It takes a > fair amount of tension when it's used. > > Thanks. > > Scott _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 16 12:38:59 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D03742902 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:38:59 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-la0-f47.google.com (mail-la0-f47.google.com [209.85.215.47]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2992540551 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:38:52 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-la0-f47.google.com with SMTP id fh20so1797016lab.6 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 11:35:10 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=yBuqPv5XtOARRy81HKaE4Q2g0gKC4OxhOHSQNOwcpBI=; b=0RBrCbqOAP4m12oc6qMinpOcih4o23kf6lSww89O3PyPaJBnFDiaNZhdBaxw6qDpZ5 T5CPW9rqRPCju9fWmFBCXado9AYUzR+MGVVB3A6GW9JGM3VnEbXQn+/NWIAV5GahMvu3 +umYhitrMwmpTmdsk8gYqlJcLMiQRq1LG44QDu7GDAFKo68vtE0AftgU+5RqY7U7J3bS SKZRjhMAQVLQoWqVhvn/c4uGLWKtt0fKkXIdDARP5KZzXjjBf7TIwx/O9hO0oLClsoG2 OVEx0MVPd6qUPxh0+BwU1Lt9P4mQOj8wm76I5+DJqhWmzgPSWFATbMjaKwuA1m5D6v2f csjw== i13mr1108434lbd.45.1358364910155; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 11:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.110.98 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 11:35:10 -0800 (PST) References: <50F6E758.6060703@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:35:10 -0500 From: Jeff Scarbrough To: Scott Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] For my next trick... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Scott wrote: > > Is there any way to glue or 'weld' the strap back together? It takes a fair > amount of tension when it's used. I've found those Velcro cord straps useful for all sorts of cord-restraining jobs around the shop, including laptops in the pre-Dell Strap era...these links might work: http://www.lowes.com/pd_49845-388-90438_0__?productId=1090877 http://www.lowes.com/pd_46232-388-90340_0__?productId=1087893 The first one has an arrangement whereby the strap stays attached to the cord and can't be lost. There are others that are longer, for strapping the cord to the power brick. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 16 12:52:12 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C04D425B5 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:52:12 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from col0-omc2-s1.col0.hotmail.com (col0-omc2-s1.col0.hotmail.com [65.55.34.75]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5B140561 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:52:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from COL002-W104 ([65.55.34.71]) by col0-omc2-s1.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 16 Jan 2013 11:48:21 -0800 From: Jim Stone To: shop talk Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:48:22 -0600 FILETIME=[7098CD20:01CDF422] Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net My new vacation/rental property has one feature that makes me very nervous: access to the basement is through a trap door in the floor. It is a small house and the trap door sits in a hallway with the two bedrooms on each end and the bathroom in the middle. The door is hinged on the bathroom side, so that the bathroom is blocked when it is up. I hope that description is clear. I can try to do a better job if not. Heres the problem: the washer and dryer are in the basement. Under any circumstances, it is easy to imagine someone falling in the hole when the door is open (I have come somewhat close once already), but here is the scenario that most frightens me. My wife wakes up in the morning and decides to throw a load into the laundry before everyone wakes up. I wake up while she is down there and groggily walk towards the bathroom and straight into the 2 by 4 hole in the floor. (Actually, my greater fear is that this happens to a renter, who then sues me for every penny I have.) It is a very small (780 sq ft) cottage and there is no way to reposition the steps without adding on to the house and changing the layout. That is actually something we plan on doing in a couple of years, but cant do right now. The financial model that allows us to own this place assumes that we rent it out for the summer season each year, and we need to get it on the market soon. The only option I have come up with is to padlock the door and make the renters go outside and enter the basement through the garage door. However, I am hoping someone here has a better idea. I will be there in a few weeks and would love to find a simple solution to the problem. As always, thanks! Jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 16 13:19:25 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA8B542984 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:19:25 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ie0-f175.google.com (mail-ie0-f175.google.com [209.85.223.175]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8A9542582 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:16:09 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ie0-f175.google.com with SMTP id qd14so3288017ieb.20 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:12:27 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=KWeWt/na0NJyOswwd1wGXVM56sxXfWvx2fXiqaPGzEI=; b=C+y5XFTarv8rjQeaj1oL1NZmCJvcnO5XiZE1fVce2pQPtpQsLHvWThkqgu3LL2acx7 I5DFZUN1J8zHlNEgNbnXxmEhZU3GKsbT9SRTqqxd3xTtpQ3caydHeW7xWmhMrMemuRxR C9dPLgsMIFXedr2TIIpyNzTLz7ve4B5By3MGklgN4xXAMu9PRVqOOP/z0iD46BOYAyW1 i9VyhNJOTkfRDClhuktMU7GMV/uhMLXtrFg7u0rXHo/S7cNXw59XzTLzLzlYRw6HVZfQ 3e4+svAP96JZdozZCBtUhlaeF0XjJbS1XAaHpeglZ8BrtnZCO5wyXZS474rDGEj8YQge 8GIQ== wm2mr1825459igb.1.1358367147908; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:12:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.44.116 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:12:27 -0800 (PST) References: Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 15:12:27 -0500 From: Paul Parkanzky To: Jim Stone Cc: shop talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net You can block the hallway when the door is open (think those retractable belts they use for queues at the movie theater). Google "Wall mounted belt barrier." When you are going to open the door, you pull one of those across each end of the hallway to warn people that it is up. Of course, that only works if it's used. Another option would be to install an automatic closer on the door. Then the door wouldn't be open when somebody wasn't there holding it. However, I think that this would probably make the door treacherous (and extremely inconvenient) to use. In the end, you'd probably install a catch chain to hold it open and then there's not much point to the closer... I think that if you're worried about being sued, the best bet is to lock that door and have renters go outside. When you use the place, a piece of rope across each end of the hall should be warning enough if you can trust your family to use it. Good Luck, -Paul On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > My new vacation/rental property has one feature that makes me very nervous: > access to the basement is through a trap door in the floor. It is a small > house and the trap door sits in a hallway with the two bedrooms on each end > and the bathroom in the middle. The door is hinged on the bathroom side, > so > that the bathroom is blocked when it is up. I hope that description is > clear. > I can try to do a better job if not. > > Here s the problem: the washer and dryer are in the basement. Under any > circumstances, it is easy to imagine someone falling in the hole when the > door > is open (I have come somewhat close once already), but here is the scenario > that most frightens me. My wife wakes up in the morning and decides to > throw > a load into the laundry before everyone wakes up. I wake up while she is > down > there and groggily walk towards the bathroom and straight into the 2 by 4 > hole in the floor. (Actually, my greater fear is that this happens to a > renter, who then sues me for every penny I have.) > > It is a very small (780 sq ft) cottage and there is no way to reposition > the > steps without adding on to the house and changing the layout. That is > actually something we plan on doing in a couple of years, but can t do > right > now. The financial model that allows us to own this place assumes that we > rent it out for the summer season each year, and we need to get it on the > market soon. The only option I have come up with is to padlock the door > and > make the renters go outside and enter the basement through the garage door. > However, I am hoping someone here has a better idea. I will be there in a > few > weeks and would love to find a simple solution to the problem. > > As always, thanks! > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/parkanzky@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 16 13:28:39 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DBA3429B6 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:28:39 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-lb0-f177.google.com (mail-lb0-f177.google.com [209.85.217.177]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B1F240690 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:28:27 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-lb0-f177.google.com with SMTP id n10so1345758lbo.36 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:24:43 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ho9S3r+tvGliHLqOr2yF/7pEvQIMB/Bo+Wi15WU5lus=; b=VpBjsPYWZsvg2avbHILPNQuHpP0+sRzbZMracXxs2LLKXBE8xwntJ5c3onq5HntMuv oVAKMjhBwVe0JVBIpNdTcyYdwXvaca6ewEmMwh/3kfE2voYI61SM4zfUcsMAT/9OFegU qctG2RcjT5s7Nlt+7E35p8tQNxDM8zw8+NQgXIUVx3H5+2TSIJxN7MtaXSh9PKh3I3w6 osuO2GXVPpid2e7pjTZMgcZR/mr/FltPeUkeYF/vRt/Q/wnzBQP0gk4haWXL9YR4Ay9w BsHv8stM+OEKjRh2zqbBlN0fhNbmt09Fb5EwNamqEpGyV575XNPjmbifBMyGsT7ih7tn TlRw== x7mr1154299lbm.109.1358367882925; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:24:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.51.238 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:24:42 -0800 (PST) References: Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:24:42 -0600 From: John Innis To: Jim Stone Cc: shop talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I'm envisioning a switch (like for a security system) that will tell you when the door is open, hooked up to a big red flashing light. Could be a simple tilt switch (like on an old pinball machine). Both the switch and the light could be mounted to the bottom of the door so they would be out of the way. On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > My new vacation/rental property has one feature that makes me very nervous: > access to the basement is through a trap door in the floor. It is a small > house and the trap door sits in a hallway with the two bedrooms on each end > and the bathroom in the middle. The door is hinged on the bathroom side, so > that the bathroom is blocked when it is up. I hope that description is clear. > I can try to do a better job if not. > > Here s the problem: the washer and dryer are in the basement. Under any > circumstances, it is easy to imagine someone falling in the hole when the door > is open (I have come somewhat close once already), but here is the scenario > that most frightens me. My wife wakes up in the morning and decides to throw > a load into the laundry before everyone wakes up. I wake up while she is down > there and groggily walk towards the bathroom and straight into the 2 by 4 > hole in the floor. (Actually, my greater fear is that this happens to a > renter, who then sues me for every penny I have.) > > It is a very small (780 sq ft) cottage and there is no way to reposition the > steps without adding on to the house and changing the layout. That is > actually something we plan on doing in a couple of years, but can t do right > now. The financial model that allows us to own this place assumes that we > rent it out for the summer season each year, and we need to get it on the > market soon. The only option I have come up with is to padlock the door and > make the renters go outside and enter the basement through the garage door. > However, I am hoping someone here has a better idea. I will be there in a few > weeks and would love to find a simple solution to the problem. > > As always, thanks! > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis@gmail.com > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 16 13:30:17 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7C5429D1 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:30:17 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-qa0-f44.google.com (mail-qa0-f44.google.com [209.85.216.44]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D2D40690 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:30:09 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-qa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id z4so3701137qan.3 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:26:27 -0800 (PST) s=google; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=0rw6i9GT+sAAPnplo8ClWHEVBXPYWdkJkuAYwQIi4Ns=; b=qmCBD3cRh6WjNvgtmerveucSE2BtOdfzAPkx3NCiESG3CuY3lo6ZwlIhBvMNv4AIhS hjnKbXm1baErxxnn1VR5saopHWbA6HygaWP8TuG9iN/1bEH69ZS8sr1SXsON9ZCg9TAk n27znuBCJ1hOS8BFlnGEkM1x1IWJUA/zNQ9ak= d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=0rw6i9GT+sAAPnplo8ClWHEVBXPYWdkJkuAYwQIi4Ns=; b=eVGySgWJ6flr7YAm4YbGUjYErjdTM1UvBlPkyX6g6UAW/JoaHkGBpST+BzP258enFd SIbtEyQBTbsraYKZeUjzfkSH3NwJQwuCCGxuMOgu2Y7o6Qip+4+DzuCCWdZgJ/KE5oLT FbARNI0UO/idhbmBD2M4ahXBdiYT9ONFEhPc0JkNXdAjScCEytcitazUM+BvkvyYE0le WA3D8zj35U6QgUEV0bTPpc1vfr2qqxTWKnIz4ITMfNgoJlHj3pFZnNHq5pVyFY+MPSlL QjIKKkHue/hdBPRnY5U1l7p7nTRJtgmvT/2U+jv57Ds+ptlVpPBQBSLZrPJkLko91JW7 QlZQ== dc10mr3045744qab.55.1358367987375; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.51.10 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:26:27 -0800 (PST) References: Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 15:26:27 -0500 From: Ian McFetridge To: Jim Stone Cc: shop talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net It sounds like you need some sort of interlock, such that someone cannot use the trap door unless something is blocking people from falling into it. One way to do it would be to put a second trap door or metal framed barrier beneath the trap door such that after opening the trap door toward the bathroom you have to then lift the send door that blocks the hallway. I suppose you could connect the door doors with a cable or track system, but I think that would be more trouble than it is worth. Padlocking the trap and covering it with a rug for renters is probably what a lawyer would recommend -- and what I would probably do when I'm not there. - Ian On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > My new vacation/rental property has one feature that makes me very nervous: > access to the basement is through a trap door in the floor. It is a small > house and the trap door sits in a hallway with the two bedrooms on each end > and the bathroom in the middle. The door is hinged on the bathroom side, > so > that the bathroom is blocked when it is up. I hope that description is > clear. > I can try to do a better job if not. > > Here s the problem: the washer and dryer are in the basement. Under any > circumstances, it is easy to imagine someone falling in the hole when the > door > is open (I have come somewhat close once already), but here is the scenario > that most frightens me. My wife wakes up in the morning and decides to > throw > a load into the laundry before everyone wakes up. I wake up while she is > down > there and groggily walk towards the bathroom and straight into the 2 by 4 > hole in the floor. (Actually, my greater fear is that this happens to a > renter, who then sues me for every penny I have.) > > It is a very small (780 sq ft) cottage and there is no way to reposition > the > steps without adding on to the house and changing the layout. That is > actually something we plan on doing in a couple of years, but can t do > right > now. The financial model that allows us to own this place assumes that we > rent it out for the summer season each year, and we need to get it on the > market soon. The only option I have come up with is to padlock the door > and > make the renters go outside and enter the basement through the garage door. > However, I am hoping someone here has a better idea. I will be there in a > few > weeks and would love to find a simple solution to the problem. > > As always, thanks! > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2@mcfetridge.org _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 16 14:37:15 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 481EE42A2C for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:37:15 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7141540E33 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:34:50 -0700 (MST) Authentication-Results: cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com smtp.user=tr3driver@ca.rr.com; auth=pass (LOGIN) a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=JL11jMZz4nMA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=39q_bjMWAAAA:20 a=-8SIkXCYAAAA:8 a=7V8GjjwBAAAA:20 a=pwtZ1JHAef3d7T7V064A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=MLo-Rncz0usA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=hFwcADQ33CgJV9lcXZw7+A==:117 Received: from [10.127.132.110] ([10.127.132.110:46558] helo=cdptpa-web19-z01) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTPA id AA/BC-01431-C1C17F05; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:31:09 +0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:31:08 -0500 From: Randall To: Jim Stone Sensitivity: Normal Cc: shop talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net ---- John Innis wrote: > I'm envisioning a switch (like for a security system) that will tell > you when the door is open, hooked up to a big red flashing light. Me too, except a big light shining up out of the hole should be sufficient. I wouldn't want to have to have a flashing red light all the time that anyone is in the basement doing laundry. I didn't understand from your description if the hole is accessible from the side opposite the trap door or not. If so, another possibility might be a cable or similar, fastened to the door so it forms a barrier in the bedroom directions when the door is open. Yet another approach might be to ring the opening with light beams, and sound an alarm when anyone walks too close to the open hole. I can see problems with that, but it should help. Maybe a recording that plays "Danger, Danger, Will Robinson" I suppose there is no chance that the laundry could be moved somewhere else? They make washer/dryer combos now that will fit in a closet and even leave room for clothes or shelves above it. Eg, http://goo.gl/XkD28 Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 16 14:45:02 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B484242A2C for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:45:02 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB3E429E5 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:44:56 -0700 (MST) Authentication-Results: cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com smtp.user=tr3driver@ca.rr.com; auth=pass (LOGIN) a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=JL11jMZz4nMA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Xang64KtNG6S9NNNCIUA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=hFwcADQ33CgJV9lcXZw7+A==:117 Received: from [10.127.132.110] ([10.127.132.110:46718] helo=cdptpa-web19-z01) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTPA id 20/40-25866-A7E17F05; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:41:14 +0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:41:14 -0500 From: Randall Cc: shop talk Sensitivity: Normal Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net ---- Paul Parkanzky wrote: > Another option would be to install an automatic closer on the door. Then > the door wouldn't be open when somebody wasn't there holding it. However, > I think that this would probably make the door treacherous (and extremely > inconvenient) to use. Hmm, what about a remote controlled automatic opener/closer, like one sometimes see on hospital doors? Push a big button (positioned so you can bump it with an elbow if your hands are full) and the door opens long enough to get through it, then closes. You could have switches on both sides, making it more practical to close the door while in the basement. Probably combined with some indication from above that someone is down there, so you know not to block the door. Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 16 16:11:14 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2968C426BB for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:11:14 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm26-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm26-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.225]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2F64282F for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:08:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.197] by nm26.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jan 2013 23:04:23 -0000 Received: from [98.139.244.51] by tm8.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jan 2013 23:04:23 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp113.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jan 2013 23:04:23 -0000 s=s1024; t=1358377463; bh=WOWT4VOpVA4fAezMNWoweUC4xIBvIPxpIr7m0LeV1cE=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=i1imJ2Vn5UvDhoHRBYyJ56B9fHtB+0gHXznJcOy5wfz5I4fXVX3vzuhQFKId7mPu6cCuEdMKFlWq2278NlqIeTgCW6Ob1eVhderH4VIpqGRJlWei+B96x0uNuqA7BgIkix/yfQITZta46QcVxuWTYF4ayH1ISnI271oqwornExo= aIyHeODAl6OFSKxIOgdeXvdvduVDRa_aEs.MwdEmE9xmBknxEx5BNyj2Wgjl wDUo3kDn5jKC9XxmhAXCmXs08pgXxu8hKuU909IZ958.6sETeUQNfF1om16p 2U.6gmspCACYyGvtnX8klYeuiV2iNV1GOSNp7cDOHfNtTTNDEM8OboxOq6Xs K4zedUNLInr3x6mLifQTXfmxlG6Dw81_2milFQH6KGwQPHKVRg5KXSYoWITC TKOWWeGSns3rPXYxF10P8mlfOc7Rca_QXcBsC2YwKauZbHmpy6ONHeVuIs6b oerCx_Lng14pdiVSsMsDESttesn6C9EET6baTiHVF29vPOrwP3NxAGYMIcLV 97WNsld4CF56D8qD9oLnZ9VlVShzfaRSVU7_gWIwEqUAk6O87CCqe7YIOY2G eg1jftGpOMgK3j7xdgDAiPrNXIH_EqG1CjOlidcsyKbH_ Received: from john5043a2d406 (jniolon@108.227.226.77 with login) by smtp113.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2013 15:04:23 -0800 PST From: "John Niolon" To: "shop-talk" References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:05:33 -0600 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net boy, there are some elaborate ideas here... might be cheaper to hire a small imported boy with a yellow caution flag to watch the hole... I'm liking something like a 'slam latch' like on truck under body tool boxes... it's flush..(covers with a rug with no trip hazard)... .it locks and the barrier tape/rope/chain that someone mentioned before... pull it across the hall when the door is open... you could also use it for a queue line at the bathroom door if necessary ! john ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" Cc: "shop talk" Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe > ---- Paul Parkanzky wrote: >> Another option would be to install an automatic closer on the door. Then >> the door wouldn't be open when somebody wasn't there holding it. >> However, >> I think that this would probably make the door treacherous (and extremely >> inconvenient) to use. > > Hmm, what about a remote controlled automatic opener/closer, like one > sometimes see on hospital doors? Push a big button (positioned so you can > bump it with an elbow if your hands are full) and the door opens long > enough to get through it, then closes. You could have switches on both > sides, making it more practical to close the door while in the basement. > Probably combined with some indication from above that someone is down > there, so you know not to block the door. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon@att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 17 08:50:02 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1EB40E28 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 08:50:02 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8013640E1B for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 08:47:08 -0700 (MST) a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=7nOv3WvAjmIA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=k5opXG8o8HAA:10 a=rgyNC3SMHWqn0KjMM5EA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55001] helo=randall) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id EF/38-25866-A1C18F05; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 15:43:23 +0000 From: "Randall" To: "'shop-talk'" Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 07:43:30 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac30ExSNIjMuMVW5RRezF3s5CzXcXAAtdkvA Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] For my next trick... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > if you know someone > who can make o-rings from a > kit... I think the o-ring adhesive is better than the > original super-glue. I have the O-ring kit and the glue that came with it. It works, but the glued joint is never quite as strong as the original O-ring, in my experience. Maybe if you had some sort of press that could apply pressure on the joint while the glue hardened ... -- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 17 09:31:27 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596A740E1B for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:31:27 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7FC42B2E for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:30:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (host-173-246-195-102.morrisbb.com [173.246.195.102] (may be forged)) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0HGRBbo009288 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:27:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:27:08 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] For my next trick... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > I have the O-ring kit and the glue that came with it. It works, but the > glued joint is never quite as strong as the original O-ring, in my > experience. Maybe if you had some sort of press that could apply pressure Replacements are pretty easy to find, just google: http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=dell+notebook+power+strap Hey! 2nd from the top. Is that the one you're looking for? http://www.parts-people.com/index.php?action=item&id=5551 $3.99 + $2.90 S&H. Not worth trying to fix to me. Searching Ebay for: dell (power,cord) strap Gets six hits. Hey! a lot of 50 for $46, free shipping! If you haven't tried it before, you'll be amazed at some of the obscure parts you can find on Ebay, both new, NOS, and used part-outs. My old faithful microwave Panasonic oven of nearly 20 years died. Sold the glass tray on Ebay for $15, and tore the rest to pieces in about 10 minutes and had $1.50 of bare steel for the next scrap yard run. -w _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 17 09:53:28 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D808425AA for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:53:28 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wg0-f53.google.com (mail-wg0-f53.google.com [74.125.82.53]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BB7D4069C for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:51:37 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-wg0-f53.google.com with SMTP id fn15so1764876wgb.20 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 08:47:51 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=x+Si1vt0oAvnkHWZZzF7PuCZrmPsW1OUWdSDmKhEn+k=; b=BhOvFek+AubuFgO4ssdr2F7S9Ucpw+Kog+KqPXNsDsegef9WXZixEDFn3AmrPVA+AF UtACxcO8cgKlqa+qNTQElzj6OtKp60tTNYSwkzVKhTLOsy3LUnTbbYTx7o075iFP/TSF qOWOAuQmQzrq3ljEyfOfo+JdsMUEVweT9SG39BvJmUmXgIRlvm09TuwDeSrrpeGsIQfa r8nqaSoSFKKTr8PbVvFyzz24vb9UkbYy+Fn2a89YDM2Q0cYoywYMnODLN3V697AeT++n QmKJE/KNb0oic5aLk/+I0OAUZqfyGZh2xUZ9UTvG4YZgR9S/XEII4QwrzIE7JKXGL8ug 1Nkw== u6mr9253032wix.20.1358441270626; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 08:47:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.172.203 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 08:47:50 -0800 (PST) References: <50F8265C.6080000@xxiii.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:47:50 -0600 From: Ronnie Day To: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] For my next trick... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Check with in the Austin area. They just might have the strap by itself. They're Dell's "Outlet" operation and their C/S is pretty good. I bought an extra power brick for my Dell 17 laptop from them for less than half the Dell retail price. On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Wayne wrote: > I have the O-ring kit and the glue that came with it. It works, but the >> glued joint is never quite as strong as the original O-ring, in my >> experience. Maybe if you had some sort of press that could apply pressure >> > > Replacements are pretty easy to find, just google: > http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=dell+**notebook+power+strap > > Hey! 2nd from the top. Is that the one you're looking for? > http://www.parts-people.com/**index.php?action=item&id=5551 > $3.99 + $2.90 S&H. Not worth trying to fix to me. > > Searching Ebay for: dell (power,cord) strap > Gets six hits. Hey! a lot of 50 for $46, free shipping! > > If you haven't tried it before, you'll be amazed at some of the obscure > parts you can find on Ebay, both new, NOS, and used part-outs. My old > faithful microwave Panasonic oven of nearly 20 years died. Sold the glass > tray on Ebay for $15, and tore the rest to pieces in about 10 minutes and > had $1.50 of bare steel for the next scrap yard run. > > -w > > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** > options/shop-talk/ronnie.day@**gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 17 20:15:49 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8335B40553 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 20:15:49 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from col0-omc2-s5.col0.hotmail.com (col0-omc2-s5.col0.hotmail.com [65.55.34.79]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 269924051C for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 20:15:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from COL002-W31 ([65.55.34.73]) by col0-omc2-s5.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 17 Jan 2013 19:11:20 -0800 From: Jim Stone To: shop talk Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 21:11:20 -0600 References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>, <24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406> FILETIME=[7CE37C80:01CDF529] Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thanks guys. Some interesting approaches, but none that will probably keep the lawyers at bay. (Although the "imported boy" idea might actually work, it could also bring a different kind of lawyer my way.) Blocking the halls would stop someone falling in from the bedrooms, but not an absent-minded person (like yours truly) from taking a dive on the way to the bathroom from the living room. The ideal would be some kind of strut that would 1) make the door easier to open and 2) cause it to automatically close a few seconds after being opened. I doubt anything like that exists. I can envision an elaborate system where three barriers would 'unfold' when the door was opened, one of which could swing away to allow entry to the steps. However, this would be well beyond my ability to design and execute, so I suspect I will be getting the padlock out. But, please feel free to drop me a line if any of you wake up in the middle of the night with a sudden flash of insight. One never knows... Thanks again, Jim > From: jniolon@att.net > To: shop-talk@autox.team.net > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:05:33 -0600 > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe > > boy, there are some elaborate ideas here... might be cheaper to hire a small > imported boy with a yellow caution flag to watch the hole... > > I'm liking something like a 'slam latch' like on truck under body tool > boxes... it's flush..(covers with a rug with no trip hazard)... .it locks > and the barrier tape/rope/chain that someone mentioned before... pull it > across the hall when the door is open... you could also use it for a queue > line at the bathroom door if necessary ! > > john > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Randall" > Cc: "shop talk" > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 3:41 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe > > > > ---- Paul Parkanzky wrote: > >> Another option would be to install an automatic closer on the door. Then > >> the door wouldn't be open when somebody wasn't there holding it. > >> However, > >> I think that this would probably make the door treacherous (and extremely > >> inconvenient) to use. > > > > Hmm, what about a remote controlled automatic opener/closer, like one > > sometimes see on hospital doors? Push a big button (positioned so you can > > bump it with an elbow if your hands are full) and the door opens long > > enough to get through it, then closes. You could have switches on both > > sides, making it more practical to close the door while in the basement. > > Probably combined with some indication from above that someone is down > > there, so you know not to block the door. > > > > Randall > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon@att.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99@msn.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 17 20:48:10 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCAC04056E for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 20:48:10 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail959c35.nsolutionszone.com (mail959c35.nsolutionszone.com [209.235.152.149]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE8E4056A for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2013 20:47:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from EricJRussellPC (99-194-27-8.dyn.centurytel.net [99.194.27.8]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail959c35.nsolutionszone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id r0I3hLjp027480; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 03:43:22 GMT From: "Eric J Russell" To: "Jim Stone" , "shop talk" References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>, <24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 22:40:59 -0500 a=-JObsjWD2_UA:10 a=P2oOn6vrs4wA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:17 a=l0LQuQEF7-nFWpPEDSwA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:117 reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I'm imagining something like the mechanisms at Thomas Jefferson's Monticello. When the doors are opened a hidden pulley system could move bars - like the trafficators on an olde English car - into the hallways around the opening. Can you upload a photo of the floor doors for us to peruse? Us visual learners like photos... Eric Russell Mebane, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Stone" > I can envision an elaborate system where three barriers would 'unfold' > when the door was opened, _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 18 03:34:44 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57E24069D for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 03:34:44 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtp004.apm-internet.net (smtp004.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.54]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEC4940516 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 03:34:33 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 6357 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2013 10:30:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (81.159.186.74) by smtp004.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 18 Jan 2013 10:30:42 -0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:30:38 +0000 From: nick brearley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>, <24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406> <8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Eric J Russell wrote: > I'm imagining something like the mechanisms at Thomas Jefferson's > Monticello. When the doors are opened a hidden pulley system could > move bars - like the trafficators on an olde English car - into the > hallways around the opening. > For starters, how about this? http://www.cellaraccess.co.uk/Grille%20Door.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCQLGCmhllo Would keep children entertained for hours. Won't be cheap, but still cheaper than lawyer's bills... Nick Brearley _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 18 06:40:07 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A03406B4 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 06:40:07 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-gg0-f178.google.com (mail-gg0-f178.google.com [209.85.161.178]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A7E940530 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 06:39:52 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-gg0-f178.google.com with SMTP id j5so568856ggn.9 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 05:36:01 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=c6zWK6Y1ysJAT06ctusauL6u64ScDvEOnKP1zxcEZpI=; b=DzjBbqdbc0dswuDR/jsGoQmcfnIph45uX+gqC+iOvLYTMbui6/va02hOoIoUWgRhRV T8I3rlDJ3+O6PXlWQoWQ0QrOVGsvd0aIuNhO1ovg+7PJX23cg8T+YoLFz8H9cblqCHng Du3N22fzPgoeH1PIvWyQleyp7uiCnefpOv/u3JobDY+z+GxE/mMpTaZYCLnWkQOjNAXX a5Dy9f99etsvaDG0EpzxMArLd1ZtA5ZIEvjw+LLutOFCD4sVv1qG1gaG96AE+xpGQQ6p FvKn7ySrp8d8Cj2wA5x6DWqfgDz+NPYiCZxX13oF0neYG+dwos4jlF2Wfc8UU3dW16TA sTAA== e2mr9833961yhi.67.1358516161398; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 05:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g3sm4043168anj.14.2013.01.18.05.36.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 18 Jan 2013 05:36:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:35:58 -0800 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>, <24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406> <8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net All the engineering solutions are pretty cool sounding, but after being a landlord myself, there's just no way I'd ever rent out a house with a trapdoor in it, no matter what. I'd build a staircase--even outside the house, if I had to--before I let tenants use a trapdoor in a hallway. Shoot, I'd nail the trapdoor shut and just eliminate access to the basement entirely before I let a tenant use a trapdoor. I don't think you could buy enough liability coverage to cover lifetime skilled nursing care for someone falling through that thing. And they will find a way to do it. I had a tenant flush a deodorant bottle down a toilet. After that, anything seems possible. For just you guys, you could install gates in the hallway--like a railroad crossing barrier. When someone uses the trapdoor, they lower the barriers on either side of it. If they were just above waist-height, and if they locked into a latch on both sides of the hallway they'd certainly make you aware of their presence before you fell into a hole in the floor, no matter how sleepy you were. You could even tie them into the operation of the trapdoor itself. But all that sounds to me like as much work as putting a three-foot bump-out and a staircase on an exterior wall. Scott On 1/17/2013 7:40 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > I'm imagining something like the mechanisms at Thomas Jefferson's > Monticello. When the doors are opened a hidden pulley system could > move bars - like the trafficators on an olde English car - into the > hallways around the opening. > > Can you upload a photo of the floor doors for us to peruse? Us visual > learners like photos... > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Stone" > > >> I can envision an elaborate system where three barriers would >> 'unfold' when the door was opened, _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 18 06:46:30 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27888406AD for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 06:46:30 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from col0-omc2-s12.col0.hotmail.com (col0-omc2-s12.col0.hotmail.com [65.55.34.86]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCD84056A for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 06:46:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from COL002-W22 ([65.55.34.73]) by col0-omc2-s12.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 18 Jan 2013 05:42:34 -0800 From: Jim Stone To: shop talk Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:42:34 -0600 References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>, <24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406> <8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>, <50F9244E.8010204@landform.co.uk> FILETIME=[ABA47300:01CDF581] Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thanks Nick. That is exactly the kind of thing I had been hoping to find. I actually found that company when I was surfing to see if I could find an answer before polling this group, but obviously didn't spend enough time on their site. Of course, shipping something like that to the States is probably out of the question, but I will write the company to see if they know of a closer source. As for Eric's suggestion to post a photo, I will be happy to. I don't have one but will do that when I am at the place in a couple of weeks. Cheers, Jim > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:30:38 +0000 > From: nick@landform.co.uk > To: shop-talk@autox.team.net > CC: jandkstone99@msn.com > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe > > Eric J Russell wrote: > > I'm imagining something like the mechanisms at Thomas Jefferson's > > Monticello. When the doors are opened a hidden pulley system could > > move bars - like the trafficators on an olde English car - into the > > hallways around the opening. > > > > For starters, how about this? > > http://www.cellaraccess.co.uk/Grille%20Door.html > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCQLGCmhllo > > Would keep children entertained for hours. Won't be cheap, but still > cheaper than lawyer's bills... > > Nick Brearley _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 18 07:08:54 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F8014069E for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:08:54 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm24.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm24.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.89]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15F7540563 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:08:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.201] by nm24.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jan 2013 14:04:26 -0000 Received: from [98.139.221.50] by tm12.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jan 2013 14:04:26 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp103.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jan 2013 14:04:26 -0000 s=s1024; t=1358517866; bh=tjqmWnk9zx4WHZ7QL++xsdMlmVTXyUzsVZ/9VnZqIVE=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=P9ITMXcop3a1Ldgc7ADwzBJnz2PWVEUaz2QBNgjkWI2vJ3JJB0L/p6GHLgz5Y5supPdXHHtGlLuh3p+djuUzlAaIDCzbmpTgX10d0kcXk1f7Ew/6C5h5INr6iQBuqZIYc9zthT0v96NVIFXNogkWUyflnlnIFNRvVgq0cp2PLY0= h6s98iIboI4CJxYMqINdFd6Oa72Aj11p2a_lSSS8dt_otYVt4nix4cseeB9p 9DGanT2CQE0Ng4jB4avlPF2vaep7IWAigb_R7YQNAExA86VF6Fed84i0dKl0 IUZly8MQdForoJpn09lBRwwwzJXEBaLuKj429jKF_aK1SwiA3LXAdiHrrhxk 4Kinn7Eo3wuuZa7ndVRdPozl0oBtJCal2q9TceTZLIM81YJ9mo_M_VphIlkE XxDldAQX7.f_y8CAT2Xob6Xkr76gZUHHyIOucjs1kEW4kfxTFDUNPfe7hFqO kotk_BdudxbGumENwPjhtO0mb_eHC5M4ihhyd7fae4VeALNWa1tdYCGbKhEy 6_oMRJmj4pyByUXjhNAKe.tm..CFLNSZERhvpHVo8Kg4- Received: from john5043a2d406 (jniolon@108.227.226.77 with login) by smtp103.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2013 06:04:26 -0800 PST From: "John Niolon" To: "shop-talk" References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>, <24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406><8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>, <50F9244E.8010204@landform.co.uk> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:06:37 -0600 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe??? photo's ??? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net ok, I'm the dummy now.... never knew we could post a photo here ??? or are posting to another site and linking to it ??? john > > As for Eric's suggestion to post a photo, I will be happy to. I don't > have > one but will do that when I am at the place in a couple of weeks. > > Cheers, > > >> Nick Brearley > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 18 07:23:02 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C401406B1 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:23:02 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta21.charter.net (mta21.charter.net [216.33.127.81]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC904065A for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:20:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp11 ([10.20.200.11]) by mta21.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.09 201-2260-151-124-20120717) with ESMTP id <20130118141620.ZHPC10448.mta21.charter.net@imp11> for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:16:20 -0500 Received: from wt07 ([209.225.8.57]) by imp11 with smtp.charter.net id pSGL1k0041Dq0wp05SGLZ9; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:16:20 -0500 a=NrW5UhCsb7nn2utAaUfzJA==:17 a=SPAKA3mDuA0A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=wyuvrHxSFM8A:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=y1nEoOw-TKoA:10 a=IW66gw8CU3gQaoV5UusA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=BcwT0Smst7MCtTIIGOhIgQ==:117 Received: from [165.189.65.12] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:16:20 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:16:20 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Shop Talk User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe??? photo's ??? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Nothing has changed.... You have to put the pic on some sort of photo sharing site and share that link with the list. On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 8:06 AM, John Niolon wrote: > ok, I'm the dummy now.... never knew we could post a photo here ??? > or are posting to another site and linking to it ??? > > john >> >> As for Eric's suggestion to post a photo, I will be happy to. I >> don't have >> one but will do that when I am at the place in a couple of weeks. >> >> Cheers, >> >>>> Nick Brearley >> _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 18 07:25:16 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9288640E1F for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:25:16 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm19-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm19-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.25]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCB3406AD for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:23:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.200] by nm19.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jan 2013 14:19:58 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.98] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jan 2013 14:19:58 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1003.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jan 2013 14:19:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 53251 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Jan 2013 14:19:58 -0000 s=s1024; t=1358518798; bh=zYCkVBZGHy2u0wWrQPpj1ivW4Iwl5PN2foX5pIlWtlc=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=gNh5htg/85F+IW8b+KfIBwK0sTqnaI6qhE07+iZtGUgu+wuTf0GU0wc9bCw0y55s/1j6JipG7SxQsma9Je4qwWMn36r4VeY4PRktAOSrF9vv693ON6CsqW5M1rHYhJUDf65ad8w0+GdnyWlpseH4Br4fbTQyPKhPrzYg71f8uRo= s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=fhcjwrSpy4LFm9TL91HYJ1bZrso4A8McPLvYP17fB3KY/EeieGsNBMRLHJoFWlaf5fsddNNRD+0eq8T3cjx3aOdkhKg2BASGBOM6HYJ0GDFI2KUmVUnILe72BLpaUHg98RLxuONR1Ntqmua/Sgn2ZOxV2sSzZL67t7HTsEGcMxk=; 1Pai7KTGXz9YeocHUDeDzmHGUY04vbEEz7aC5i.lfDeaskI5PhPS39d45n0r yEdffuXpbreKf0J.2MvedYIwHIIVNvKc6tr7QAo_XHKAlRrjSTPRNkZ50JGP RyYJ6VZpN4GHLzoNOi6DjuTpjfVc0114M1QpiRybo3fFR9XMmDUyAPI9W9ug c0RvEALOBVfq0TrQig78Rmn0ESlbA.pPyTvtxfOC85jRcO3prWm4O6P7vxRX hRf_906IdfJt78GHeWQMKm59mewKoelYzl7IxZkWi745aFL7e.6b1yzb6iFp Bo7430t9CDtWDVVR3RcyGcJPDz6Gryzljx1bmKzUTIJfW1auQ7Y6Iu6dO.AM U.1L4nmtga3uy7pA34FfnOTFMvbQ.acpWdlDswxw2oYQj9nhMpK2WQR4M81p WazGWF8Az.JZXnaPdEldnegpiUgJD6NKh.CEDNZz2pI0J8HA1YGC5Qek06.8 YaVLEh_TD82tMW42_UEhLMQ0rjhNZ.iCH48zh.7U4wm61kVlGPPHCF7SbEHk 8Qtrb.CgsyXdr1EU- Received: from [99.146.37.193] by web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 06:19:58 PST QXR0YWNoZWQgcGhvdG8uLi4gKG5vdCBvZiBhIHRyYXAgZG9vcikuICA6LSkKIGJlc3QsCgoKZG91ZwpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwonNzIgQlNBIEI1MFNTCic3NCBUcml1bXBoIFRSNgonMDEgSEQgWEhMIDg4MwonMDMgR01DIENhcmdvIFZhbgonMDcgQXByaWxpYSBTWFYgNTUwCgoKCi0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UgLS0tLQpGcm9tOiBKb2huIE5pb2xvbiA8am5pb2xvbkBhdHQubmV0PgpUbzogc2hvcC10YWxrIDxzaG9wLXRhbGtAYXV0b3gudGVhbS5uZXQ.ClNlbnQ6IEZyaSwgSmFudWFyeSABMAEBAQE- References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>, <24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406><8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>, <50F9244E.8010204@landform.co.uk> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 06:19:58 -0800 (PST) From: old dirtbeard To: John Niolon , shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe??? photo's ??? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Attached photo... (not of a trap door). :-) best, doug ____________________ '72 BSA B50SS '74 Triumph TR6 '01 HD XHL 883 '03 GMC Cargo Van '07 Aprilia SXV 550 ----- Original Message ---- From: John Niolon To: shop-talk Sent: Fri, January 18, 2013 6:05:02 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe??? photo's ??? ok, I'm the dummy now.... never knew we could post a photo here ??? or are posting to another site and linking to it ??? john > > As for Eric's suggestion to post a photo, I will be happy to. I don't have > one but will do that when I am at the place in a couple of weeks. > > Cheers, > > >> Nick Brearley > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard@pacbell.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 18 07:25:35 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541FA40E2C for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:25:35 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from imap.usermail.com (imap.usermail.com [205.234.18.180]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B67406AD for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:24:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from 2012Win7Paul (cpe-173-095-177-153.nc.res.rr.com [173.95.177.153]) by imap.usermail.com (8.13.2/8.13.2) with ESMTP id r0IEKLm7027636; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:20:22 -0700 From: "Paul Mele" To: "'Scott'" , References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>, <24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406> <8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC> <50F979EE.5090107@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:20:29 -0500 Thread-Index: AQJ9YskYc42BL7+Y71VM/w8jBYlv9wKmlrFYAOHKdisBhNyllgJD0LgwlrW/H9A= Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I'll second this opinion. I'm also a landlord, and as an ER doc, I've heard thousands of stories of "errors in judgment" . My wife and daughter are both attorneys. PM -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Scott Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 11:36 AM To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe All the engineering solutions are pretty cool sounding, but after being a landlord myself, there's just no way I'd ever rent out a house with a trapdoor in it, no matter what. I'd build a staircase--even outside the house, if I had to--before I let tenants use a trapdoor in a hallway. Shoot, I'd nail the trapdoor shut and just eliminate access to the basement entirely before I let a tenant use a trapdoor. I don't think you could buy enough liability coverage to cover lifetime skilled nursing care for someone falling through that thing. And they will find a way to do it. I had a tenant flush a deodorant bottle down a toilet. After that, anything seems possible. For just you guys, you could install gates in the hallway--like a railroad crossing barrier. When someone uses the trapdoor, they lower the barriers on either side of it. If they were just above waist-height, and if they locked into a latch on both sides of the hallway they'd certainly make you aware of their presence before you fell into a hole in the floor, no matter how sleepy you were. You could even tie them into the operation of the trapdoor itself. But all that sounds to me like as much work as putting a three-foot bump-out and a staircase on an exterior wall. Scott _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 18 07:32:25 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 716CA40E31 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:32:25 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm18.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm18.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.145]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F386B4044C for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:32:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.44.103] by nm18.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jan 2013 14:28:28 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.64] by tm8.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jan 2013 14:28:28 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1001.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jan 2013 14:28:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 34582 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Jan 2013 14:28:27 -0000 s=s1024; t=1358519307; bh=R+R4kIzC569HGguIBzONnzAsuz2l8N/+mM2M6EznLzg=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=hxp5ux1B73k94ehzQkg8pU8x4TEslU7cDae5bGA3KUcVZ5EnpodDuW4C5GP9oY1QY3H985nNs8Nz2QDnY59K784GHa4O8lyeAfyoqg9BkZMuP9gOEVmSDDVQqJzFYUi9sMH8y6aJEOQhsc3nLFSXBMt53o/aKW7mCkhu9PFnqdE= s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=qKlQEuH4NXghoQ7D5434X3wAP2cDn2RKLfcUJ7vyS7x6pjaSqd0ubuAax4G17qQKcNi4VTr7q8S/tJ1nmgPVRIxmVwyVUY9svU9/A7yBRSxY437mJv/8ObBizQSNiIeC01GJo4poL59mk3yQoAEcc1LGC05lWonc3LXdUJ5EtZs=; 5BD0Xgm2MHuPGdP7HGuUJ4waTr3ZTWyyvlPTZzUyZpCsE0kd3u9W8L7Dn_dd iUUEjWtT8s4BHAQ3pfsbLegiCtZV7vrNGwxPXgH2RqIexImjJwsdd85L84z0 JPWPDaSRUsIBaUvYU2OoLkQTLMwgctETlL6XnZi095Ti9nitSEOFMh3ePMGH J7aa219q7GBSgoszX5FrtQKqfO1azy14INGFzQDDQp.tvcy5ClSbuYsl.KvT Qqd8j8kg3iu66PNV.Jd1o9t7Ksh.P2Rpl3iIzePBIQLsDnLcu_s0aFmxP9GN wWcLzc5oJ3zWc2KZq7bzlXZh6KS4TNMLaWhP0CDqg0TftmCv6HHqd6L3gZwn wF91468paQJ0MHjbT8En4sVFR1JLOoA8gPF_Oa6u5UTcFIrM7BNmJlSd9dJN 19pm1qMDaEW0lr_EGJt52gbw_lzLr.yzGZByQJ1M3h4ZKSBxPjyewaRujXAs s4bwSJxIu3GbP.FhMYYukfMDKc3Em3NNtcaV0PoIu7KfLUYnDMQEP5STcbpS Oqjd.MnibuphcGq8- Received: from [99.146.37.193] by web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 06:28:27 PST VGhlIHRlc3Qgd291bGQgc2VlbSB0byBpbmRpY2F0ZSB0aGF0IGl0IHN0aWxsIHN0cmlwcyBhdHRhY2htZW50cy4uLgogYmVzdCwKCgpkb3VnCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCic3MiBCU0EgQjUwU1MKJzc0IFRyaXVtcGggVFI2CicwMSBIRCBYSEwgODgzCicwMyBHTUMgQ2FyZ28gVmFuCicwNyBBcHJpbGlhIFNYViA1NTAKCgoKLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tCkZyb206IG9sZCBkaXJ0YmVhcmQgPGRpcnRiZWFyZEBwYWNiZWxsLm5ldD4KVG86IEpvaG4gTmlvbG9uIDxqbmlvbG9uQGF0dC4BMAEBAQE- References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>, <24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406><8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>, <50F9244E.8010204@landform.co.uk> <1358518798.50527.YahooMailRC@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 06:28:27 -0800 (PST) From: old dirtbeard To: John Niolon , shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe??? photo's ??? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net The test would seem to indicate that it still strips attachments... best, doug ____________________ '72 BSA B50SS '74 Triumph TR6 '01 HD XHL 883 '03 GMC Cargo Van '07 Aprilia SXV 550 ----- Original Message ---- From: old dirtbeard To: John Niolon ; shop-talk@autox.team.net Sent: Fri, January 18, 2013 6:21:24 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe??? photo's ??? Attached photo... (not of a trap door). :-) best, doug ____________________ '72 BSA B50SS '74 Triumph TR6 '01 HD XHL 883 '03 GMC Cargo Van '07 Aprilia SXV 550 ----- Original Message ---- From: John Niolon To: shop-talk Sent: Fri, January 18, 2013 6:05:02 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe??? photo's ??? ok, I'm the dummy now.... never knew we could post a photo here ??? or are posting to another site and linking to it ??? john > > As for Eric's suggestion to post a photo, I will be happy to. I don't have > one but will do that when I am at the place in a couple of weeks. > > Cheers, > > >> Nick Brearley > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard@pacbell.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard@pacbell.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 18 08:12:50 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121B9406B5 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:12:50 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm19.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm19.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.220]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAD7E4054C for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:12:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.193] by nm19.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jan 2013 15:08:47 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.105] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jan 2013 15:08:47 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1010.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jan 2013 15:08:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 69625 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Jan 2013 15:08:46 -0000 s=s1024; t=1358521726; bh=D8XlAMNnwEIIEzmz8hJxNxfZmk+0nUGQvAGhaa7GVIc=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=LkyF+TxkV7dR+gLxr/dE12vnCoek/9nCtIeIVPfDDoGVrtNcV8pvrA6WGRQ2cdKyUxGVEVhtXzHhcWZA31TrhHR1HAR+AKlC5Ds04qKf6If69sSf5MV9Q1QKu5oMuGGrzbHi84OHvX2nx8iqBk0O27Qb1qXRiNdD1+fqE0YLHgM= s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=lgwJuacKGmxnWwRxbczUsyJlkI283opTgb798aansvf9KR7aEooUwyjkwK8iChkH9BYHvhv3J0QNFDVlXi9S7EuVBxi6MId4iniRQOlESbpQ9jPkyQnn9vpEW9kYhlYPd6p7BDf2ahWENxKDt14O8hVMU8+U6k064ixEZnEqG6Y=; 83mU1YXg3jhfFuH3nsKc_znsVxb.DYApeVXSsJpqghXo9_A9p0OPuVFocXW2 Jb8R_N1WThcaXBXFl3mWotGUcBwCzLgiKpy1YllC8TCyn_vWZLeMsmO1QqXE PhEtN_WDdSOUFHstN4z__cnKl3V1lIwc.HbRV8w2DvnLQqzvzq5zWm0s7PqT UMgfRCHtS0ZU_du5jlJDp1qq1VjslYTVsHAT_O7UQ6P7CrVRqfz2l2KZKOl5 SfsdTWDYH7lA73U_M2YZ7T._J.4VXJh.fwZeLrucpLgEdAHiWoPsKrAWLbiE 8RvhN6bfnZ0bpu3QIrKlDA0UeRDzZwoRTIgv3slkAxtRuHK9N6AESNG.bcB. LAD4fTGcWYlo2oMhDB.4gol2gAv4gNWwvuI0QuRpfDkVpPtmG5uWlwXSIfSu YQ1DITBokRlvYNASl3nq31wHT3aQ.5Tq.MyFY5bE6KrUZYPyg6zjlZKZympq BCCg__5WA3TAiV1OJC9BU.muypYrYd8xd22LxscaFAAfFWCksmsviyMtYkXP qbg.Jzt9IhEOnvM0- Received: from [12.167.75.11] by web182203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:08:46 PST U29tZW9uZSB3b3VsZCB0aGVuIGZpZ3VyZSBvdXQgaG93IHRvICd0cmlwJyBvdmVyIHRoZSBiYXJyaWVycy4gIAoKUmFuZHkKCgoKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkZyb206IFNjb3R0IDxzY290dC5oYWxsLnBlcnNvbmFsQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4KVG86IHNob3AtdGFsa0BhdXRveC50ZWFtLm5ldApTZW50OiBGcmksIEphbnVhcnkgMTgsIDIwMTMgNzozNjoxNiBBTQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW1Nob3AtdGFsa10gTWFraW5nIGEgdHJhcCBkb29yIHNhZmUKCkFsbCB0aGUgZW5naW5lZXJpbmcBMAEBAQE- References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>, <24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406> <8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC> <50F979EE.5090107@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:08:46 -0800 (PST) From: Rand E To: Scott , shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Someone would then figure out how to 'trip' over the barriers. Randy ________________________________ From: Scott To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Sent: Fri, January 18, 2013 7:36:16 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe All the engineering solutions are pretty cool sounding, but after being a landlord myself, there's just no way I'd ever rent out a house with a trapdoor in it, no matter what. I'd build a staircase--even outside the house, if I had to--before I let tenants use a trapdoor in a hallway. Shoot, I'd nail the trapdoor shut and just eliminate access to the basement entirely before I let a tenant use a trapdoor. I don't think you could buy enough liability coverage to cover lifetime skilled nursing care for someone falling through that thing. And they will find a way to do it. I had a tenant flush a deodorant bottle down a toilet. After that, anything seems possible. For just you guys, you could install gates in the hallway--like a railroad crossing barrier. When someone uses the trapdoor, they lower the barriers on either side of it. If they were just above waist-height, and if they locked into a latch on both sides of the hallway they'd certainly make you aware of their presence before you fell into a hole in the floor, no matter how sleepy you were. You could even tie them into the operation of the trapdoor itself. But all that sounds to me like as much work as putting a three-foot bump-out and a staircase on an exterior wall. Scott On 1/17/2013 7:40 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > I'm imagining something like the mechanisms at Thomas Jefferson's Monticello. >When the doors are opened a hidden pulley system could move bars - like the >trafficators on an olde English car - into the hallways around the opening. > > Can you upload a photo of the floor doors for us to peruse? Us visual learners >like photos... > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Stone" > > >> I can envision an elaborate system where three barriers would 'unfold' when the >>door was opened, >> _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mistertwo@sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 18 09:39:40 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75FE04055B for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:39:40 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B299D40523 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:39:23 -0700 (MST) a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=wyuvrHxSFM8A:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=y1nEoOw-TKoA:10 a=zjA2RTvkAAAA:20 a=LgfOw8rCWUK5mp53gNIA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=SMHsn6X1bTIA:10 a=ddZT45GQ4RAA:10 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55001] helo=randall) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 8E/AA-25866-4D979F05; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:35:32 +0000 From: "Randall" To: Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:35:42 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac31iCBOCzV83QG4Q/6HOETWbcnXeAAEAQnw Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe??? photo's ??? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > The test would seem to indicate that it still strips attachments... Indeed, to post photos you still have to put them somewhere else and include a link (also not a trap door, but something I'd like to have in my shop ) http://goo.gl/HksFp -- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 18 09:51:09 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41E9406B1 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:51:09 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.24]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7B7406AE for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:51:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.52]) by qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id pTzq1k00817UAYkA2UnCvQ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:47:12 +0000 Received: from sz0220.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.137]) by omta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id pUnC1k0042xZMJ48ZUnCPr; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:47:12 +0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:47:12 +0000 (UTC) From: pethier@comcast.net To: John Niolon s=q20121106; t=1358527632; bh=u7cpqLGZhwBTT5F2H2FxvKunZOs176hz25RFJlDJOkw=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=Hat/REJNELHX2bWHy1pAlwwxFq7aa0RTNiLntSAQDV3o2FhJ+oc4rYqeojwnL+nxJ kbo53oo01gWW5WABGlF1LY4V7Vc3VyclxbByShfAwu4Q6DFdt/rRHRYj8fkNJVTT9z awY8iX9y9iF8pLVW1l63TYvPe25r8eQ3XQ41LkDNNaUyBocsltIiNvYLXqN2J/qlXk 6I3uGfnQWql0Dkpr1TG/3MnDFAQ+FS5D8oqCvhKTimuGcBRVkTEzlMT7hOZHycXvaX RHlJCv1BSG9uq4eL00ROeQv1Snvcys1cAgKIHBO92fkuUcq0A5qjyS3BwSmdR42ltv yKXgiiRIGUAhQ== Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe??? photo's ??? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Post it somewhere else. I like flickr.com flickr is free for light users. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier@comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica http://www.mnautox.com http://www.mntriumphs.org ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Niolon" > To: "shop-talk" > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 8:06:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe??? photo's ??? > ok, I'm the dummy now.... never knew we could post a photo here ??? or > are > posting to another site and linking to it ??? > > john > > > > As for Eric's suggestion to post a photo, I will be happy to. I > > don't > > have > > one but will do that when I am at the place in a couple of weeks. > > > > Cheers, > > > > >> Nick Brearley > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier@comcast.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 18 13:18:34 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF6942B4F for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:18:34 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E5BF40EA5 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:17:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from mark.bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by bradakis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83B04A165F for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:15:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:15:34 -0700 From: Mark J Bradakis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120315 Firefox/11.0 SeaMonkey/2.8 To: 'shop-talk List' References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>, <24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406><8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>, <50F9244E.8010204@landform.co.uk> <1358518798.50527.YahooMailRC@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1358519307.31231.YahooMailRC@web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe??? photo's ??? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Oddly enough I just mentioned on the Triumph list that I should get the forums back on the air. One CAN easily post pictures there. So maybe this weekend that link down below will actually become useful. mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Fri Jan 18 21:58:24 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 628BE40E93 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:58:24 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-gh0-f180.google.com (mail-gh0-f180.google.com [209.85.160.180]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92F040563 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:58:12 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-gh0-f180.google.com with SMTP id f13so420619ghb.25 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 20:54:19 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=M6FHSa7nyCizTXiQ+jm+u3scO1NCKRhMHEo+MnbImGY=; b=EYvI/CGioII8rCw3cYbnTa0RNRVlYzFc8MT4VfrNAOLPuqp1JOrEgaU3sUXHy4aFsM m2M5AOE2y9mLXDRvhQzMW6CgRLf3Xn7MZ78asXvAT9cQm6w3J0aRu9K1H6/kuKu4LQD/ cUbP/aM4WLYZPCyoFOCnottfYk3xh239f1Pr/x3xkn/K74rA4SzczF71sIScBj/LLBwV TMQcKiFl2QtrWZe3VaxFn6xqzRVG6SSSaUZzHTO5xb7RAMJR3GcA/X13uV4mLcWpz3H6 3fe/fbVQ1HwInuKT0cs92lLLTgqm4lXPQ5Q0WT5qixnNoQXMlCS1l+I0N0JO143QriQc E9fw== e2mr12998665yhi.67.1358571259035; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 20:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h62sm6779119yhe.3.2013.01.18.20.54.17 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 18 Jan 2013 20:54:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 23:54:15 -0800 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: Rand E References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>, <24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406> <8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC> <50F979EE.5090107@gmail.com> <1358521726.45111.YahooMailRC@web182203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I was thinking for just him and his wife. I'm reasonably certain the barrier would stop me, and probably my wife too. And (more importantly) I know I won't sue myself. On the other hand, it's only a matter of time before the one of you using the trap door forgets to use the barriers, or doesn't use them because you'll "just be down there for a second". That will be the time the other of you gets up to get the glass of water. I'd keep the trapdoor if it was just me in the house. Or my and my wife, because I know she's not getting up to do laundry at 2:00 a.m. If your wife might, I'd loose the trapdoor. And there is just no way on earth I'd ever let a tenant rent a house with a trap door in the floor. That sounds to me like an excellent way to see the worst of human nature. The most interesting aspect of that rental would be: can an attorney write a clause in the rental agreement that indemnifies you from liability related to the trapdoor that could actually withstand litigation, and then, could your bank account withstand such litigation, even assuming successful resolution? That's a question I'll never want to find out for myself, personally. In all seriousness, o.p., if you go through it, get a liability coverage of at least $10 million. That should be enough to run off the claimants when the company tenders limits on day one of the issue. I wonder what that policy would cost. Put the cottage in a separate S-Corp or L.L.C. (or Trust, or whatever). Find a good attorney and discuss this with them. Probably want to protect your other house too. (Really $10 million. Lifetime skilled nursing care or wrongful death is probably more than that, but 33% of eight figures tends to motivate a plaintiff's attorney in most small towns, I'd bet.) Sheesh...when did I get so cynical? On 1/18/2013 7:08 AM, Rand E wrote: > Someone would then figure out how to 'trip' over the barriers. > > Randy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Scott > *To:* shop-talk@autox.team.net > *Sent:* Fri, January 18, 2013 7:36:16 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe > > All the engineering solutions are pretty cool sounding, but after > being a landlord myself, there's just no way I'd ever rent out a house > with a trapdoor in it, no matter what. I'd build a staircase--even > outside the house, if I had to--before I let tenants use a trapdoor in > a hallway. Shoot, I'd nail the trapdoor shut and just eliminate access > to the basement entirely before I let a tenant use a trapdoor. > > I don't think you could buy enough liability coverage to cover > lifetime skilled nursing care for someone falling through that thing. > And they will find a way to do it. I had a tenant flush a deodorant > bottle down a toilet. After that, anything seems possible. > > For just you guys, you could install gates in the hallway--like a > railroad crossing barrier. When someone uses the trapdoor, they lower > the barriers on either side of it. If they were just above > waist-height, and if they locked into a latch on both sides of the > hallway they'd certainly make you aware of their presence before you > fell into a hole in the floor, no matter how sleepy you were. You > could even tie them into the operation of the trapdoor itself. > > But all that sounds to me like as much work as putting a three-foot > bump-out and a staircase on an exterior wall. > > Scott _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jan 19 08:48:51 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E58042282 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 08:48:51 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F06F44227E for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 08:47:50 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 10:33:12 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 01/19/2013 10:31:55, Serialize complete at 01/19/2013 10:31:55 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net If you want to send me the photos and I can post them to my webserver for free, let me know. Thanks. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jan 19 09:58:31 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58424245B for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 09:58:31 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta11.charter.net (mta11.charter.net [216.33.127.80]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2C54422A7 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 09:58:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp11 ([10.20.200.11]) by mta11.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.09 201-2260-151-124-20120717) with ESMTP id <20130119165427.MADM6169.mta11.charter.net@imp11> for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:54:27 -0500 Received: from wt09 ([209.225.8.59]) by imp11 with smtp.charter.net id psuT1k0011GRMdM05suT8Y; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:54:27 -0500 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:17 a=cxKuJJEeAZ8A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=oXZTmEiJRl8A:10 a=JAralIE_AAAA:8 a=bWg4-pr01s4xGF00GDQA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=UTDQXsS36hp0fJY1DhMA:9 a=Z3yWIn2sia9Z-cth:21 a=zdRuEmwNkDemIoCQL0WYIA==:117 Received: from [96.42.24.160] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:54:26 -0500 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:54:26 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Shop Talk User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a duct Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Hi all. We have a craftsman home, approx 110 years old. When HVAC was added at some point, all they did was use the wall stud pockets (for lack of a better term) as duct work. At one point an interior, non-load bearing wall was taken down to make one big living room. The wall contained the bductingb for what is now the upstairs bathroom. When the wall was pulled down, they filled in the wall and ceiling gaps with planks of oak in an attempt to match the rest of the wood work. (an epic eye sore fail!!) What I want to do is use the existing feed for this bathroom from the basement and run 3b duct up the wall and across the ceiling where wall used to be and into the existing vent in the bathroom, then patch with either plaster or drywall (this latter most likely). The one spot that might make this a no go is pictured in the link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/82293958@N06/8394587221/in/photostream Part of the marked areas is the main support beam. However, the one marked is a seam so I assume not part of the main support. But above that is support beam. It does not look to me that I would have to remove much of the support beam to make room for the aluminum duct and can even flatten the duct to require less room. I could add layers of OSB or plywood to reinforce the area I cut into if necessarybfor this reinforcement process Ibd appreciate guidance as well. Right now we have (obviously) no air to the upstairs bathroom so anything I can get would be an improvement. Love this list! Thanks!! tim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jan 19 10:21:55 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A11B42451 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 10:21:55 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta31.charter.net (mta31.charter.net [216.33.127.82]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BADEF40538 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 10:20:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp10 ([10.20.200.15]) by mta31.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.02 201-2260-151-103-20110920) with ESMTP id <20130119171621.LRIS24708.mta31.charter.net@imp10>; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 12:16:21 -0500 Received: from wt09 ([209.225.8.59]) by imp10 with smtp.charter.net id ptGM1k00L1GRMdM05tGMZq; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 12:16:21 -0500 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:17 a=cxKuJJEeAZ8A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=rmHB8sRbomgA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=B7_lsgWqKusA:10 a=zOoktvdPAAAA:8 a=JAralIE_AAAA:8 a=5VBC1MTdskGniKmXoggA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=NDUt02LqlH4A:10 a=GnN96dMaLyUA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=UYMyvtdtV9wNXj6b:21 a=8D3w9cOVqhdRCW_n:21 a=zdRuEmwNkDemIoCQL0WYIA==:117 Received: from [96.42.24.160] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 12:16:21 -0500 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 12:16:21 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Shop Talk User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Cc: Tony Vaccaro Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Replacing a duct Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Hey Tony. Yea, I understand what you are talking about. I did think of doing some sort of small bumpout (I forget the actual term) as a last resort. I could then install crown molding to hide it if i could get the wife to go for it. thanks! On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Tony Vaccaro wrote: > this wont go to the list as I am using an email address not associated > with the list. > > I would just have the duct go up along side the beam, building out the > wall. What difference does it make if you have a triangular area there > to accommodate the duct. I would look like part of the wall and not > be noticed. > > Dont know if you get what I mean. but best that I can describe it. > > > > Anthony R Vaccaro > > American Micro Inc > > 716-689-9100 (Store) > > 716-861-1412 (Cell) > > ________________________________________ > From: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > [shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net] on behalf of Tim > [tputland@charter.net] > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 11:54 AM > To: Shop Talk > Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a duct > > Hi all. > > We have a craftsman home, approx 110 years old. When HVAC was added at > some point, all they did was use the wall stud pockets (for lack of a > better term) as duct work. At one point an interior, non-load bearing > wall was taken down to make one big living room. The wall contained > the > b?ductingb? for what is now the upstairs bathroom. When the wall was > pulled down, they filled in the wall and ceiling gaps with planks of > oak > in an attempt to match the rest of the wood work. (an epic eye sore > fail!!) > > What I want to do is use the existing feed for this bathroom from the > basement and run 3b? duct up the wall and across the ceiling where > wall > used to be and into the existing vent in the bathroom, then patch with > either plaster or drywall (this latter most likely). > > The one spot that might make this a no go is pictured in the link: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/82293958@N06/8394587221/in/photostream > > Part of the marked areas is the main support beam. However, the one > marked is a seam so I assume not part of the main support. But above > that is support beam. It does not look to me that I would have to > remove > much of the support beam to make room for the aluminum duct and can > even > flatten the duct to require less room. I could add layers of OSB or > plywood to reinforce the area I cut into if necessaryb?for this > reinforcement process Ib?d appreciate guidance as well. > > Right now we have (obviously) no air to the upstairs bathroom so > anything I can get would be an improvement. > > Love this list! > Thanks!! > tim > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jan 19 10:46:55 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD33442460 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 10:46:55 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F51442287 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 10:46:48 -0700 (MST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=fyfLZl11nhT7CXtmuPEMFb821BbIHsdRzHrchEl6+gVQgeKM9EmTxR5RpmZbm1Cy; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [76.194.243.47] (helo=[192.168.1.3]) by elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1TwcRP-0005if-NJ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 12:42:52 -0500 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 09:42:33 -0800 From: Brian Kemp User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: Tim References: Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Replacing a duct Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tim - I'd be hesitant to cut the board you marked as a seam or any structure at all. Load standards today are not the same as when the house was built and lumber is not as strong. I did a cantilever balcony replacement last summer and the structural engineer I had do the plans for me said the 2x8 joists from when my house was built in 1957 are twice as strong as a current 2x8. I ended up having to use engineered joists to meet my space restrictions. My point here is that I wouldn't mess with any structure without more of an analysis by someone that can actually examine your situation. Have you considered bumping it down like an exposed beam? You could make it from 1x trim to match the rest of the wood trim. Another option is to use two 45 degree turns and then frame that exposure as a gusset or brace. You could add another one on the other side of the room to match. Good luck. Brian On 1/19/2013 8:54 AM, Tim wrote: > Hi all. > > We have a craftsman home, approx 110 years old. When HVAC was added at > some point, all they did was use the wall stud pockets (for lack of a > better term) as duct work. At one point an interior, non-load bearing > wall was taken down to make one big living room. The wall contained the > bductingb for what is now the upstairs bathroom. When the wall was > pulled down, they filled in the wall and ceiling gaps with planks of oak > in an attempt to match the rest of the wood work. (an epic eye sore > fail!!) > > What I want to do is use the existing feed for this bathroom from the > basement and run 3b duct up the wall and across the ceiling where wall > used to be and into the existing vent in the bathroom, then patch with > either plaster or drywall (this latter most likely). > > The one spot that might make this a no go is pictured in the link: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/82293958@N06/8394587221/in/photostream > > Part of the marked areas is the main support beam. However, the one > marked is a seam so I assume not part of the main support. But above > that is support beam. It does not look to me that I would have to remove > much of the support beam to make room for the aluminum duct and can even > flatten the duct to require less room. I could add layers of OSB or > plywood to reinforce the area I cut into if necessarybfor this > reinforcement process Ibd appreciate guidance as well. > > Right now we have (obviously) no air to the upstairs bathroom so > anything I can get would be an improvement. > > Love this list! > Thanks!! > tim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jan 19 11:09:27 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08C440525 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:09:27 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D613842287 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:09:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from mark.bradakis.com (bradakis.com [166.70.156.35]) by bradakis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9AFA12A0 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:07:10 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:07:09 -0700 From: Mark J Bradakis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120315 Firefox/11.0 SeaMonkey/2.8 To: Shop Talk References: <50620720.2465eb.13c53cfa0a1.Webtop.49@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Replacing a duct Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net >> this wont go to the list as I am using an email address not >> associated with the list. One can subscribe additional addresses to a list, and set the delivery option to no mail. That way you only get messages sent to one account, but you can post from several. mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jan 19 16:26:10 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4316842453 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 16:26:10 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from col0-omc2-s9.col0.hotmail.com (col0-omc2-s9.col0.hotmail.com [65.55.34.83]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D253942282 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 16:26:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from COL401-EAS149 ([65.55.34.73]) by col0-omc2-s9.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sat, 19 Jan 2013 15:22:03 -0800 References: From: Jim Stone Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:22:00 -0600 To: "eric@megageek.com" FILETIME=[CA0918D0:01CDF69B] Cc: "shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thanks Eric. I won't be able to take them until next week, but I can just put them on one of the free sites, unless there is an advantage to using your server. Is there? Sent from my iPhone On Jan 19, 2013, at 9:45 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote: > If you want to send me the photos and I can post them to my webserver for > free, let me know. > > Thanks. > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99@msn.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jan 19 17:19:41 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB3924227F for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:19:41 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.24]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF01440447 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:19:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.51]) by qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id pzu11k00216AWCUA20FZR5; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 00:15:33 +0000 Received: from SusieandMarkPC ([76.21.64.167]) by omta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id q0FY1k00N3cWj0U8S0FZ26; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 00:15:33 +0000 From: "Mark Miller" To: Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 16:15:33 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac32o0OM1G29gR/wSke1A+VBYoWXNg== s=q20121106; t=1358640933; bh=UCd4Ads54ovdefFzd4CjEMNaRcawgj9JT9H1Swa58m4=; h=Received:Received:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=PwUDc9MdMWcmET4XkWlmtGkmblO9X5YFETu2rHQPV5DTPl/xSZuBqwb6eqZfI/32i S7ODvLMhkcgLsOYfwBrJm4OnwdGsGnl8M19SS6q+t9TSihAY81BT5yIKOu1ULhBc6F FeVG3RCyuZ+lKJ9cjigbx9AisLm1KGpvi34aHVp0VKGRpfHBuTE6o789H0WWVKbffC Rw2GZt5XV5H/JDLrgrmzw2QAknd5JZyykv6n/Jv+/yaN+VG5jka0THt87n5yVlLqQz cX0/I+6cIigB61JVPpnG8xpSZMpQT+7fw7lJINP9RmorTjLuJqqqEN4DSBJwHF2QV/ MlPw6Pr4VgmOA== Subject: [Shop-talk] Upstairs bath heat Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Even if you can properly support the support where you cut it out (some steel comes to mind) it would be a major sticking point if/when you go to sell the house. I would recommend either running the ductwork just to the inside of the beam and then enclose it in some lovely (or at least not hideous) fashion, find some other routing path for the ductwork, or some other way to heat the bathroom. Are you remodeling it? Subfloor heat below the tile is absolutely fantastic and fairly inexpensive, and you know whre you will find the cats on cold mornings. Mark Miller _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jan 19 17:30:06 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D983C422E7 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:30:06 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12EC44227F for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:29:58 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 19:14:58 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 01/19/2013 19:14:00, Serialize complete at 01/19/2013 19:14:00 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net The only real advantage is control. On my server, you never lose rights of the pictures or have to worry about ads or targeted marketing. I will not be offended if you use a free site, I was just putting the offer out there. 8>) Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Jim Stone 01/19/2013 18:10 To "eric@megageek.com" cc "shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net" Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe Thanks Eric. I won't be able to take them until next week, but I can just put them on one of the free sites, unless there is an advantage to using your server. Is there? Sent from my iPhone On Jan 19, 2013, at 9:45 AM, eric@megageek.com wrote: > If you want to send me the photos and I can post them to my webserver for > free, let me know. > > Thanks. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jan 20 17:36:15 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F7540443 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 17:36:15 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from haybaler.sackheads.org (haybaler.sackheads.org [140.186.190.103]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1D2740434 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 17:36:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (localhost.sackheads.org [127.0.0.1]) by haybaler.sackheads.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE85285A2 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 19:32:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from haybaler.sackheads.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (haybaler.sackheads.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PAVRRRYwI3NT for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 19:32:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by haybaler.sackheads.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 8B385285A1; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 19:32:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 19:32:01 -0500 From: Jimmie Mayfield To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <50F6E758.6060703@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] For my next trick... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 02:35:10PM -0500, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Scott wrote: > > > > Is there any way to glue or 'weld' the strap back together? It takes a fair > > amount of tension when it's used. > > I've found those Velcro cord straps useful for all sorts of > cord-restraining jobs around the shop, including laptops in the > pre-Dell Strap era...these links might work: I second the Velcro strap idea. For power tool cords, I usually use something like these since they can't get lost: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=105&cp_id=10520&cs_id=1052003&p_id=5816&seq=1&format=2 For just about everything else, I use double-sided 3/4" Velcro strapping. The Velcro product name is "One Wrap" and I've seen it for as little as $18 for 25yd online. But there are lots of clones of varying quality. The version sold by Monoprice is fuzzier and not as "grippy" but it's no less useful. http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=105&cp_id=10520&cs_id=1052003&p_id=5830&seq=1&format=2 You'll be surprised how many uses you find for this stuff so you'll definitely want to buy it by the roll. JM _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 22 14:59:29 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61BCE40566 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:59:29 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B9040067 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:59:16 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:45:53 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 01/22/2013 16:43:01, Serialize complete at 01/22/2013 16:43:01 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net OK, for us Hurricane Sandy survivors, there is still alot of clean up left. I have lots of friends that have tree stumps that need to be removed. Having a stump grinder, this should be easy. BUT most of these are overturned trees, rendering the stump grinder useless. So, I have the ability to lift the stumps out of the ground, but my question is, what should I use to cut the roots? Many of these are huge. I do not dare take a chainsaw blade to a dirty root. I can use an axe, but there are lots of them and most a very large. So, is there a technique for this? Better yet, is there a new tool I can buy? 8>) I'm interested in any words of wisdom on these process. I normally don't have to remove uprooted stumps. Thanks! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 22 15:14:54 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280F240646 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:14:54 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from eastrmfepo201.cox.net (eastrmfepo201.cox.net [68.230.241.216]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D89AC403F5 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:14:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from eastrmimpo210 ([68.230.241.225]) by eastrmfepo201.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.04.00 201-2260-137-20101110) with ESMTP id <20130122221035.YRRN17456.eastrmfepo201.cox.net@eastrmimpo210> for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 17:10:35 -0500 Received: from John-PC.cox.net ([24.254.211.88]) by eastrmimpo210 with cox id rAAb1k00J1uzUvs01AAbge; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 17:10:35 -0500 a=uMyTlBfukKJCgtmHy1UhRw==:17 a=G8Uczd0VNMoA:10 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=MeHaCfMOCeMA:10 a=zOoktvdPAAAA:8 a=q6SfDYXhAAAA:8 a=kys2UyXWj07vxxawFQMA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=aav4MXMyVXkA:10 a=4zxjrV59PHAA:10 a=bz_d9vehOyUA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=MgZyTbSazyeTAw7K:21 a=vr21OL6BzLhQZIOe:21 a=5kdxaCM7W_-l4pY1QdAA:9 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=ororg4E4qSYA:10 a=upQCA6GsYCUA:10 a=EZxq55ZmngBo-XC2:21 a=uMyTlBfukKJCgtmHy1UhRw==:117 Authentication-Results: cox.net; none Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 17:10:43 -0500 To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: "John T. Blair" mail.megageek.com> References: Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net At 04:45 PM 1/22/2013, you wrote: >....So, I have the ability to lift the stumps out of the ground, but my question is, what should I >use to cut the roots? Many of these are huge. I do not dare take a chainsaw blade to a dirty >root. I can use an axe, but there are lots of them and most a very large. Eric, When I had to have the sewer drain line replaced the plumber used a battery operated reciprocating (saw-s-all) saw to cut through tree roots. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948@cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 22 15:54:27 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D7C4254F for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:54:27 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm22-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm22-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.137]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AC1440E27 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:52:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from [66.94.237.126] by nm22.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Jan 2013 22:48:38 -0000 Received: from [68.142.198.104] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Jan 2013 22:48:38 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp106.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Jan 2013 22:48:38 -0000 BXdj_4pWxao6GQWWsyS97naJuABM_3jGbxtT.zEAH9JAsVFcDkuPQo6VdByv CJKCN.CKkMV3XW68ofPaMRxlS0YJ9A8bkZeyQiJyCVJVqEaLXLxKCA_kyOPc m4jXbT5RDInqzc8A6v0MFgz7De_V9tBSVZ0XlAkzeRDFFzR6XVYucXzV3leC L_WGDDtC1IKoiBenM91Hig_duXDTPtxZKUQdpEwjbTSuWmnObERbK8pWK_HL qTbq8lDJidVnPb1EUfflbQxnXz_iHFE2g.zvdOgghfHf7I8tdHu_PUlyJWvL 6AO5Gg8onXRFOScZTnt6ybwMPHE8abV897BTGBt841NrynbcCnzjshzYScMN p.hk4cZoS08Y8odz9xd.0lDNlHMh_jAl75GY0HJrHxkYt3I_mJ0ZRTWbF3ij Pg4ljuiXgWbrMS8wIBKXlMfHNeg9Sj7Q- Received: from KarlIntel (KVacek@24.14.131.73 with login) by smtp106.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2013 22:48:38 +0000 UTC From: "Karl Vacek" To: References: <6.2.5.6.1.20130122170806.04cf8b50@cox.net> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:48:36 -0600 Thread-Index: AQIG61nzjovBDbbosvpxePQajWlwqgCGcO4Rl9/aTGA= Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I've cut many huge roots in the ground with 12" coarse-tooth Sawzall blades. They last amazingly long, even in our very sandy soil. Karl -----Original Message----- >....So, I have the ability to lift the stumps out of the ground, but my question is, what should I >use to cut the roots? Many of these are huge. I do not dare take a chainsaw blade to a dirty >root. I can use an axe, but there are lots of them and most a very large. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 22 16:16:03 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFFE940E27 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:16:03 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-lb0-f177.google.com (mail-lb0-f177.google.com [209.85.217.177]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 994314065B for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:15:56 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-lb0-f177.google.com with SMTP id go11so1747838lbb.36 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:11:43 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=mEuoMEF1esUSzHPW2nJUWD91WSkOnEAVmFEg/dCPKvw=; b=Tgbv92hBnTArxrSXbuEJwkvd0EjvoCDPkJ/7BfMNGW2Q+Uk0N1yoqP0sz/ofhVlTs1 PhKgvUS51EF+frfFoUvQt4BJ3L38ZPGBS1Bcy/bHov4QNEr9a/Wk8KQX7loDQt/TVTel lelZG5XharjFMcxsBshHO2/yswpzEVo2Kj19OPYZMoGnHSjdVfyaE+t/u7l3yP195duN FL7sSjkYmvGET2oRLsMAsJrkk7mE69y3IchCi39c3nihjnCd6zfe2WHUUDPvk85yjMJJ yO0OE3pb99F9AGpRLor1+b2UPTpvLcAfuu9cBVu3JA5IjQOX9JymuewxPBfXFnTEBQiC A3vg== f1mr9761505lbm.29.1358896303781; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.41.164 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:11:43 -0800 (PST) References: Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:11:43 -0500 From: Jeff Scarbrough To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 4:45 PM, wrote: > but my > question is, what should I use to cut the roots? Another vote for the reciprocating saw. If you have a lot of roots, though, a 120V saw and a small generator like the Honda 1000 type may be a better choice. Otherwise, you may spend some time waiting to recharge batteries. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 22 16:49:19 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A72340067 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:49:19 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from imap.usermail.com (imap.usermail.com [205.234.18.180]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA31B40690 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:49:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from webmail.usermail.com (imap.usermail.com [127.0.0.1]) by imap.usermail.com (8.13.2/8.13.2) with ESMTP id r0MNiuc8019362; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:44:56 -0700 Received: from 98.101.145.216 (SquirrelMail authenticated user paul.mele) by webmail.usermail.com with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:44:56 -0500 (EST) References: Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:44:56 -0500 (EST) From: paul.mele@usermail.com To: "Jeff Scarbrough" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6-rc1 Cc: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net ditto on the saw zall, and 120VAC vs batt models. Hurricaine Fran survivor. > > Another vote for the reciprocating saw. If you have a lot of roots, > though, a 120V saw and a small generator like the Honda 1000 type may > be a better choice. Otherwise, you may spend some time waiting to > recharge batteries. > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 22 18:59:50 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4928403E8 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:59:50 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ob0-f176.google.com (mail-ob0-f176.google.com [209.85.214.176]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB0540337 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:55:06 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ob0-f176.google.com with SMTP id un3so7749725obb.21 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 17:50:54 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Ca7DnF8pGBDdOFbbLOX55Dba/i/IufSAn596c8V3Ymc=; b=C7ssTspeBZDd7Dw1DHo6cZytuzBaX/rEwAKZWAw2MuryNguNs+PkcmO5Y26MsoReGW EyB40PLmSr0oX8j/KBdEQHTDUi4JSepQDQQvn3E7AtumIhzvDv0OmQDo/hqS/WgjgdC6 6yj0oXOWAzKc7sg5TMo8DAkZFqM287nzN24j9suO0NCN3jMLzyuo1BRtiYCL2/yF9BUb fNdMF3NjlMK4cmhdQz5BnV5mWVZNHIYvCa1DPcBGAyI5ltJwLta7Hj6Vv8TRlguDVadw fGfrhjhzfDQDhkTbq5+fcVjFNJ+hq0KuctHQn/WPTaGlX6hXUvSrqjwC7WWXsmQkW9ln pbVw== kt9mr2133752obb.19.1358905854274; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 17:50:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.14.8 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 17:50:54 -0800 (PST) References: <52044.98.101.145.216.1358898296.squirrel@webmail.usermail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:50:54 -0600 From: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" To: paul.mele@usermail.com Cc: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net *I had a similar situation and the recip-saw sounds smart but I just used my chain saw and bought it a new chain when I finished.* _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 22 20:03:59 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA8E42586 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 20:03:59 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D77542558 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 20:03:50 -0700 (MST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=t9pdyQkgiIS/zAf4vd6TazRqasYofQ2mXUyOPvitnSZ4ZmID2TVuv5S+ZMQmOMca; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [76.194.243.47] (helo=[192.168.1.3]) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1TxqYo-0004na-Ie; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 21:59:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:59:15 -0800 From: Brian Kemp User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: eric@megageek.com References: Cc: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Eric - The reciprocating saw is probably the best recommendation, but I also second the recommendation of just trashing a blade in the chain saw. In the end the time saved may be worth the cost of a blade. I have a little pruning saw I now use for roots when fixing in ground sprinklers. It hurt a little the first time, but then I bought a better saw that only does tree pruning. If you are worried about trashing the saw itself, get a cheap (used?) electric saw and don't worry about it. I have a Remington that was $40 that is fair for occasional use near the house. If you want an arm workout and can get around the roots, consider a rope saw like http://www.harborfreight.com/long-reach-rope-chain-saw-97092.html (I know nothing about this one in particular) To toss in something different, if you have a SDS drill, get a flat chisel like the one below and sharpen it with a grinder. Put the drill in hammer mode only and carve away. http://www.harborfreight.com/2-piece-sds-masonry-flat-chisel-set-42651.html I did this to a root cluster between my spa and a retaining wall. I had been going at it with a hatchet, but broke the blade and wore out my arm. It was too rocky for a reciprocating saw and several roots were twisted in a big clump, so it was tough to chop. This will likely not be as fast as a saw, but could be fun for a few roots that might not be easy to get in other ways. If you don't have the drill, watch for it on sale. I got http://www.harborfreight.com/3-in-1-1-inch-sds-rotary-hammer-97743.html or an earlier version for $69 with sale and coupon a few years ago. These are much better than a regular hammer drill for bigger holes in concrete. I've also played connect the dots to make 4" holes through retaining walls to run drain pipe. It is a fun tool for a while. If the trees are not too big, get a Bobcat and a chain, wrap a root and lift the bucket. If you can't pull out the root, move up to a backhoe or a dozer. Probably best to rent one of these. If I remember correctly, you had a fork lift. Drive close and hook a chain to the base of one of the forks and you can probably get some good pulling action. Brian On 1/22/2013 1:45 PM, eric@megageek.com wrote: > OK, for us Hurricane Sandy survivors, there is still alot of clean up > left. I have lots of friends that have tree stumps that need to be > removed. Having a stump grinder, this should be easy. BUT most of these > are overturned trees, rendering the stump grinder useless. > > So, I have the ability to lift the stumps out of the ground, but my > question is, what should I use to cut the roots? Many of these are huge. > I do not dare take a chainsaw blade to a dirty root. I can use an axe, > but there are lots of them and most a very large. > > So, is there a technique for this? Better yet, is there a new tool I can > buy? 8>) > > I'm interested in any words of wisdom on these process. I normally don't > have to remove uprooted stumps. > > Thanks! > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 22 20:09:10 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D20542595 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 20:09:10 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-la0-f51.google.com (mail-la0-f51.google.com [209.85.215.51]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59DF403D7 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 20:09:04 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-la0-f51.google.com with SMTP id fo13so1210006lab.10 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:04:51 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:content-type; bh=G3QNuzb3uI3KIQ3qHZGe416XVhJ1o+6nEjwBFdc2a/s=; b=RNpCxklRmKz5vqOXnSn87wTbfSP5kDcPcdztwtMEo7vyfATGuE+kVMZw6+hON/CvDq H0wN4oiokD5z0YBOZXzuxOeHsCJnWLwNBjzfbVTlvCsG/naB+kv4R9YkaA7seu/BNUd6 PiYkHYxeH6SdZpYizAqiuIwj2TA+8oBj7eIYYUhMM2IbmtXc8R0UyA+hBDpHJBcXaEDH swe87J/vrZk8J6mtQKOMFD5YYArOF3k+L/THJrcoP8s5kGgLFTxiK6K8GiUFLXeb/omu t1hALR7LLvvBgf3c65+DfTiIQQnVg0NgwfnyHCOO2pxIcI8+r38TEw/8K5TaH/lPPVo7 OOCg== mq8mr23344804lab.41.1358910291381; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:04:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.81.38 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:04:31 -0800 (PST) References: <52044.98.101.145.216.1358898296.squirrel@webmail.usermail.com> From: Peter Murray Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:04:31 -0500 To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net If this is something you are going to do a lot of, then the reciprocating saw may be the best option, since decent blades are very inexpensive. (I like the DeWalt blades.) I will say, though, that my first inclination echoes Tony Clark's suggestion - use the chainsaw. I would use an older chain and not worry too much about it. You can certainly also try to sharpen it if it gets too dull, and toss it if it is beyond a sharpening. Chains aren't that expensive, and you'd get through the roots much faster with a not-fully-sharp chain than you will with a brand new 3TPI reciprocating blade. -Peter On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 8:50 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > *I had a similar situation and the recip-saw sounds smart but I just used > my chain saw and bought it a new chain when I finished.* > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 22 20:16:00 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECF542558 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 20:16:00 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-la0-f45.google.com (mail-la0-f45.google.com [209.85.215.45]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4536403D7 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 20:12:50 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-la0-f45.google.com with SMTP id er20so2791240lab.32 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:08:37 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:content-type; bh=MOojwgwD9ESr58BwW5WcnZCxVVDBamH/bOdShTRWRfk=; b=UPLzY3S9PuqlXbjxyzy+1wCIIUP3oSnKkY2prrQyfkyK5ri2/TYrgmuGN+fkkUORzk rMSCYDeFqVdNAuTGeeUp5PFb2fuHBgYByXTdV98y8ptZbtZZpqzTpM6J4foPPAd+df3y OZXYDE9QXVpNsefWLHqU3eGC719MO+XshAljSd/gBHt4aOhrFZc0d/LZq6CIQgG5xDVc J33cehw0s7QdB84SCaoM+ucbjzryYUUBs/PYi+1JuXuLn7aRdBwIiJDmgNHmC2+P/GXq ocGPNEHu+yA69eyE9d2q8kyGI3fUgSmWtiAsL87JjrDZupff3467Skddp+mxX9Hu1pew QdUA== n5mr49174lbh.130.1358910517457; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:08:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.81.38 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:08:17 -0800 (PST) References: <50FF5203.2020808@earthlink.net> From: Peter Murray Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:08:17 -0500 To: Shop-Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Oh, and look at me making the junior-grade mistake - it didn't even occur to me to involve hydraulics! -Peter On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Brian Kemp wrote: > Eric - The reciprocating saw is probably the best recommendation, but I > also second the recommendation of just trashing a blade in the chain saw. > In the end the time saved may be worth the cost of a blade. > > [snip] > > If the trees are not too big, get a Bobcat and a chain, wrap a root and > lift the bucket. If you can't pull out the root, move up to a backhoe or a > dozer. Probably best to rent one of these. > > If I remember correctly, you had a fork lift. Drive close and hook a > chain to the base of one of the forks and you can probably get some good > pulling action. > > Brian _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 22 20:46:58 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E1154259D for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 20:46:58 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from out01.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net (out01.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net [199.224.80.228]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B856640645 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 20:44:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay02.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net ([199.224.80.245]) by out01.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net with ESMTP; 23 Jan 2013 03:39:52 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (50-47-149-114.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.47.149.114]) by relay02.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5B0514A0BC; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 03:39:51 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:39:57 -0800 From: Dave C User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: Peter Murray References: <50FF5203.2020808@earthlink.net> Cc: Shop-Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net That would be my suggestion, too. A backhoe/excavator with a thumb and/or a cat, then a tub grinder, assuming you can't pile them up and burn them. On 1/22/2013 7:08 PM, Peter Murray wrote: > If the trees are not too big, get a Bobcat and a chain, wrap a root and > >lift the bucket. If you can't pull out the root, move up to a backhoe or a > >dozer. Probably best to rent one of these. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 23 06:33:47 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 706A142592 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 06:33:47 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from col0-omc2-s10.col0.hotmail.com (col0-omc2-s10.col0.hotmail.com [65.55.34.84]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13B64069A for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 06:33:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from COL002-W27 ([65.55.34.73]) by col0-omc2-s10.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 23 Jan 2013 05:29:20 -0800 From: Jim Stone To: shop talk Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 07:29:20 -0600 References: , <50FF5203.2020808@earthlink.net>, FILETIME=[A662D9A0:01CDF96D] Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have used a reciprocating saw as well, but the mention of hydraulics reminds me that I have also used my engine lift. Depending on how big the trees are, if you can get a chain to grab something, it can be used to just pull it up enough to easily cut the tap root or just break it off. > From: peterwmurray@gmail.com > Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:08:17 -0500 > To: shop-talk@autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots > > Oh, and look at me making the junior-grade mistake - it didn't even occur > to me to involve hydraulics! > > -Peter > > On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Brian Kemp wrote: > > > Eric - The reciprocating saw is probably the best recommendation, but I > > also second the recommendation of just trashing a blade in the chain saw. > > In the end the time saved may be worth the cost of a blade. > > > > [snip] > > > > If the trees are not too big, get a Bobcat and a chain, wrap a root and > > lift the bucket. If you can't pull out the root, move up to a backhoe or a > > dozer. Probably best to rent one of these. > > > > If I remember correctly, you had a fork lift. Drive close and hook a > > chain to the base of one of the forks and you can probably get some good > > pulling action. > > > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99@msn.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 23 07:49:40 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FB840E20 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 07:49:40 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plwbeout02-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtp02-06-2.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.218.99]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E20C44043F for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 07:49:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from p3plgemwbe02-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net ([72.167.218.116]) by p3plwbeout02-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with bizsmtp id rSlD1k0022XGKeo01SlDVX; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 07:45:13 -0700 Received: (qmail 6858 invoked by uid 99); 23 Jan 2013 14:45:12 -0000 User-Agent: Workspace Webmail 5.6.32 From: To: "Jim Stone" , "shop talk" Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 07:45:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 23 08:04:21 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59E4040645 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 08:04:21 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plwbeout02-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtp02-04-2.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.218.97]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75ED240558 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 08:04:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost ([72.167.218.116]) by p3plwbeout02-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with bizsmtp id rT001k0022XGKeo01T00Z7; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 08:00:00 -0700 Received: (qmail 18700 invoked by uid 99); 23 Jan 2013 15:00:00 -0000 User-Agent: Workspace Webmail 5.6.32 From: To: "Jim Stone" , "shop talk" Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 07:59:59 -0700 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jan 26 16:23:20 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6511B4041D for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 16:23:20 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta31.charter.net (mta31.charter.net [216.33.127.82]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3A89403C8 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 16:20:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp10 ([10.20.200.15]) by mta31.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.02 201-2260-151-103-20110920) with ESMTP id <20130126231624.LYTH24708.mta31.charter.net@imp10> for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 18:16:24 -0500 Received: from wt07 ([209.225.8.57]) by imp10 with smtp.charter.net id snGQ1k0031Dq0wp05nGQeU; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 18:16:24 -0500 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:17 a=cxKuJJEeAZ8A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=c6ng9PWVSnsA:10 a=cRYiNQqJ3mgWFQT0hfwA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=IFIZThhslp2auDE-0nYA:9 a=BcwT0Smst7MCtTIIGOhIgQ==:117 Received: from [96.42.24.160] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 18:16:24 -0500 Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 18:16:24 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Shop Talk User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Subject: [Shop-talk] pc monitoring question Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Is there a way to tell if there is computer monitoring software on a pc? (I am not referring to spyware, tracking cookies any other such nefarious things) I am wondering if I can look at say, task manager (or even in windows explorer), and see if there is any such software on any given pc, no matter the origins of the pc. Thanks tim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jan 26 18:15:00 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C097B40416 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 18:15:00 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC14240439 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 18:03:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (host-173-246-195-102.morrisbb.com [173.246.195.102] (may be forged)) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0R0wgWW055146; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 19:58:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 19:58:35 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: Tim , Shop Talk List References: <4b1ddc04.3b69bf.13c7925c585.Webtop.47@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] pc monitoring question Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/26/2013 6:16 PM, Tim wrote: > Is there a way to tell if there is computer monitoring software on a pc? > (I am not referring to spyware, tracking cookies any other such > nefarious things) I am wondering if I can look at say, task manager (or > even in windows explorer), and see if there is any such software on any > given pc, no matter the origins of the pc. Not EVEN sure what you're asking... like ANY PC running windows? ctrl-shift-esc is a keyboard shortcut to pop up task manager, or a substituted program (SysInternals' Process Explorer recommended.) But that can be disabled in Group Policies on a business machine, and it still won't necessarily show every process running. There are "root kits" that can be in place, hiding themselves from the O/S and user, or the whole computer can be virtualized and running on top of a "hypervisor" like VMWare. Or all of reality as you think you know it could be virtualized, and an omnipotent computer network could be feeding neural signals into your brain telling you what it wants you to see on your screen :) -Wayne _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sat Jan 26 19:56:20 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B0C40565 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 19:56:20 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from snt0-omc2-s12.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc2-s12.snt0.hotmail.com [65.55.90.87]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08AAC4051E for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 19:50:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from SNT127-W5 ([65.55.90.71]) by snt0-omc2-s12.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sat, 26 Jan 2013 18:45:54 -0800 From: PJ McGarvey To: Shop Talk Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 21:45:53 -0500 References: <4b1ddc04.3b69bf.13c7925c585.Webtop.47@charter.net>, <51047BBB.1000103@xxiii.com> FILETIME=[6D167990:01CDFC38] Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] pc monitoring question Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net It's an interesting question, but the answer probably has alot to do with what kind of access level you already have. If you are a regular user on a work machine, and the machine is (rightly) locked down to where you have very little access to view logs, browse the C: drive or see all running processes, I'm afraid you have very little chance of being completely sure. In a situation where you are an employee, then you've (probably) surrendered any privacy you have by virtue of that employment (other than legally protected attorney - client type communications, IIRC). Most tools you could use to detect this stuff won't run as a non-admin, or won't see everything, leaving you with a false sense of security. If you think you're being snooped on, and you have admin or root access, you should have the capability to trace much of the monitoring activity with some tools, such as was mentioned before. SysInternals tools are great for tracing executables, autorun programs, and network connections on a windows system, though to the uninitiated it could be kind of confusing. I'm not aware of any "anti-monitoring" tools out there, but a rootkit, dug down deep in the system would be hard to detect without some real forensics. It's probably safe to say most software packages created for this purpose are going to be Windows based. Of course there are ways to monitor web browsing activity outside of software on the PC as well, by intercepting all your browsing as it leaves your PC. Or with the proper access to your system remotely, someone could periodically reach into your system and grab logs, web history, etc. and then disconnect very quickly. Or a USB stick inserted that autoruns and gathers this information dumping it all back to the usb key which is then removed. This could be done on any OS. Of course, a simple Task Manager search could reveal something, but again, I would think most software packages designed for this purpose would do a good job of hiding themselves that this might not be enough to be "sure". -PJ > Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 19:58:35 -0500 > From: wmc_st@xxiii.com > To: tputland@charter.net; shop-talk@autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] pc monitoring question > > On 1/26/2013 6:16 PM, Tim wrote: > > Is there a way to tell if there is computer monitoring software on a pc? > > (I am not referring to spyware, tracking cookies any other such > > nefarious things) I am wondering if I can look at say, task manager (or > > even in windows explorer), and see if there is any such software on any > > given pc, no matter the origins of the pc. > > Not EVEN sure what you're asking... like ANY PC running windows? > ctrl-shift-esc is a keyboard shortcut to pop up task manager, or a > substituted program (SysInternals' Process Explorer recommended.) But > that can be disabled in Group Policies on a business machine, and it > still won't necessarily show every process running. There are "root > kits" that can be in place, hiding themselves from the O/S and user, or > the whole computer can be virtualized and running on top of a > "hypervisor" like VMWare. > > Or all of reality as you think you know it could be virtualized, and an > omnipotent computer network could be feeding neural signals into your > brain telling you what it wants you to see on your screen :) > > -Wayne > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey@hotmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Sun Jan 27 14:18:09 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E37540EC5 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2013 14:18:09 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ee0-f52.google.com (mail-ee0-f52.google.com [74.125.83.52]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DAC640E19 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2013 14:17:58 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ee0-f52.google.com with SMTP id b15so995631eek.39 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:13:21 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=LwMhnzj7Wb/j0jqcV3UAg2TeVr7AkqzWeWUmhpMSomk=; b=WLjbNoYvG56RXPhHK0ElrxSfuE71mTuqekPcMjBxW6aclOHdpwEcy92YdBqjtR3NJ3 2DxwryoKrVo5j43k777LRFGxrJ4YqAOL5oHhV4SwcfP1RZkxDuU85/cyD/H5s6CWFzNf rOH8Vk74OHUVuTfVIDKBuJYi5Aeu41A5+9kso7J8xA/zue72U72FfyvWsw2iensNMVHs Y+A17/lA4nljzTtg0ba2SmMPf5lyLLsF7V58RVceaZq8x/BJ7c1CduO/PhKjWT2PISaP /lUE+/+mChnUtSE/aFiS2jlpm3AXeup7fqccD+X2GH+Qd28mA8axH9h907nDHgRTni4I RPxQ== v9mr44435799eep.22.1359321201400; Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.188.140 with HTTP; Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:13:21 -0800 (PST) References: <4b1ddc04.3b69bf.13c7925c585.Webtop.47@charter.net> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 16:13:21 -0500 From: Mark Andy To: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] pc monitoring question Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Howdy, Most sure way to tell is to spend a day looking at kiddie porn, and then see if you get fired. Mark On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Tim wrote: > Is there a way to tell if there is computer monitoring software on a pc? > (I am not referring to spyware, tracking cookies any other such > nefarious things) I am wondering if I can look at say, task manager (or > even in windows explorer), and see if there is any such software on any > given pc, no matter the origins of the pc. > > Thanks > > tim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka@maracing.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Jan 28 18:53:56 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B938F40E47 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:53:56 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta31.charter.net (mta31.charter.net [216.33.127.82]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DC884006F for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:48:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp09 ([10.20.200.9]) by mta31.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.02 201-2260-151-103-20110920) with ESMTP id <20130129014334.WEDZ24708.mta31.charter.net@imp09> for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:43:34 -0500 Received: from wt07 ([209.225.8.57]) by imp09 with smtp.charter.net id tdja1k00M1Dq0wp05djaxs; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:43:34 -0500 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:17 a=cxKuJJEeAZ8A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=ISJ3Ci4BgjkA:10 a=gnZPPWBVrweB4G-fh-UA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=t-VsYFKl6S7Rvn_G_osA:9 a=BcwT0Smst7MCtTIIGOhIgQ==:117 Received: from [96.42.24.160] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:43:34 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:43:34 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Shop Talk User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Looking for people's feedback, input, experiences, etc on camry hybrids. I know literally nothing about hybirds and always like the info, etc I read here. My wife read 150K mileage battery life. Does anyone know if this is this actually accurate? I've read battery replacement costs from $3K to $5K. Anyone have any experience replacing a camry battery? Thanks tim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Jan 28 19:24:18 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D2E240E47 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:24:18 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta11.charter.net (mta11.charter.net [216.33.127.80]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85284032A for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:18:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp09 ([10.20.200.9]) by mta11.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.09 201-2260-151-124-20120717) with ESMTP id <20130129021342.XJWL6169.mta11.charter.net@imp09> for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:13:42 -0500 Received: from wt07 ([209.225.8.57]) by imp09 with smtp.charter.net id teDi1k00G1Dq0wp05eDiuK; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:13:42 -0500 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:17 a=cxKuJJEeAZ8A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=Y9zj3w3WI_gA:10 a=zOoktvdPAAAA:8 a=rppjMkKWEKin6RE_B7oA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=J0aUVQLP0FIA:10 a=m3MdUl94G8cA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=BcwT0Smst7MCtTIIGOhIgQ==:117 Received: from [96.42.24.160] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:13:42 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:13:42 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Shop Talk User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net OH yea, we are looking at an 07 with 143K on it. We can't afford a lower mileage car but have no choice--we have to buy something. The wife totaled her car Saturday and we have to have two cars. On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Tim wrote: > Looking for people's feedback, input, experiences, etc on camry > hybrids. I know literally nothing about hybirds and always like the > info, etc I read here. > > My wife read 150K mileage battery life. Does anyone know if this is > this actually accurate? I've read battery replacement costs from $3K > to $5K. Anyone have any experience replacing a camry battery? > > Thanks > tim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland@charter.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Jan 28 19:41:32 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BAE0422E1 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:41:32 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail938c35.nsolutionszone.com (mail938c35.nsolutionszone.com [209.235.152.128]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3667A40430 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:38:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from EricJRussellPC (99-194-27-8.dyn.centurytel.net [99.194.27.8]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail938c35.nsolutionszone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id r0T2XbYL021439; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 02:33:38 GMT From: "Eric J Russell" To: "Tim" , "Shop Talk" References: <282161b7.3cadac.13c83f93be4.Webtop.47@charter.net> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:33:08 -0500 a=P2oOn6vrs4wA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:17 a=9hz1sfIYevUganGKg38A:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:117 reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I don't see the 'bottom line' advantage of the hybrids. The added cost is not usually offset by any fuel savings until gas gets over $5.00/gallon. Our 2006 Camry Solara with 4 cylinder engine easily gets 35+ mpg. A friend has two Corolla's (one manual trans, one auto trans). He easily gets ~ 40 mpg in mixed city/highway. Eric Russell Mebane, NC ----- Original Message ----- > Looking for people's feedback, input, experiences, etc on camry hybrids. > I know literally nothing about hybirds and always like the info, etc I > read here. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Jan 28 20:09:53 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE7940561 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:09:53 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wg0-f41.google.com (mail-wg0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E3EE4043F for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:01:44 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-wg0-f41.google.com with SMTP id ds1so1681486wgb.2 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:57:02 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=rMnJaZKcTRSdvsDiWxg66G1vrkjhteDFTooWi8IsY7M=; b=DnkUYkk+6zwLcaVf3C1VDBAtXy8xqxuRoIF+DwIVieje90AT+D09Ek2LeS/3onBTPN W/eecG0a18DMFiWfUIfYAbJ+1nJvrlvvTtD5Jx7rIfIx32AszPFTB7HFeEP/O7ABbO+g sT8QsdDRTUW03BV6mjHZPnb0SgDJZO0jVdWsQlrYLIo1n9a512zFEtUV2Dfm25V0Z5aZ MasMpte4i8WL6h3mHc4h4baGFbqXkteUx++HhgCVRPbdkh+Q1Y3RBNrVVj7B0TrYFkMN uf/XCpoxQGPkd8UZItdzRIzttw+vq9fngMOf0eh9Wt7Ien1ddAHD2RFLome446/lufrL 13uw== ff8mr13104505wib.11.1359428222221; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.235.32 with HTTP; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:57:02 -0800 (PST) References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:57:02 -0600 From: Ronnie Day To: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Think about borrowing or renting something for a couple of weeks so you have more time to look and decide. On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Tim wrote: > OH yea, we are looking at an 07 with 143K on it. We can't afford a lower > mileage car but have no choice--we have to buy something. The wife totaled > her car Saturday and we have to have two cars. > > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Tim wrote: > > Looking for people's feedback, input, experiences, etc on camry hybrids. >> I know literally nothing about hybirds and always like the info, etc I read >> here. >> >> My wife read 150K mileage battery life. Does anyone know if this is this >> actually accurate? I've read battery replacement costs from $3K to $5K. >> Anyone have any experience replacing a camry battery? >> >> Thanks >> tim >> ______________________________**_________________ >> >> Shop-talk@autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** >> options/shop-talk/tputland@**charter.net >> > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** > options/shop-talk/ronnie.day@**gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Mon Jan 28 22:59:11 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18E3C422E7 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 22:59:11 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-lb0-f182.google.com (mail-lb0-f182.google.com [209.85.217.182]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3468F40698 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 22:56:57 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-lb0-f182.google.com with SMTP id gg6so256120lbb.27 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:52:14 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=cYbGQEx5oaSF686IYXn6UHdpPYmQknifGRZBLdGb5mg=; b=p27U1iCKTQt8ViSV5kAEtonLMtaCDhD5lYs/snmFPAGspHvac3fMr//kdxKS97onDe 2yl3zPadBkXVt2yT5Ab7MmqBn8ra4XutgywG7OEq5KHbzGgwgwu6QNwuiBD2/PV9L61x WnrzZ93qEEk/liZEeUx9qJtGzhjQwxUweylr2MvyQsML0YckiQTKrjEvp392PZHsS/mP ax3zLQ87Gooq5CBWzF6+s388gCXxsV3q5hYQo4G2iGNjnFMFV8CnzdI7LHeJTxGTszFH HcC7jxMUonbbIvKJo+sTuNLv1G9EG1nSW5/oy2WKxJd8lVtlKCUkPorsj6JzYXRr0zp6 fXUA== Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:52:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.20.66 with HTTP; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:52:14 -0800 (PST) References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:52:14 -0800 From: Shannah Miller To: Tim Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I hope your wife is okay. I can't speak to whether or not you should buy the Camry. However, we have an 2005 Prius with about 98,000 miles on it, and we aren't anywhere near buying new batteries. Ours are working just great. We are taking it in for an "intermediate drive shaft" recall tomorrow morning. That points up what is, to me, the big thing to look at with the car: what recalls have there been on it, and which ones have been done? Yes, they are paid for by Toyota (or, at least, ours have been) but it's a pain in the neck to have to drop the car off, especially if you need two, as you do. Otherwise, if it's been serviced regularly, I would think that I'd be willing to take a chance on it. If you have more technical questions, you might try Luscious Garage's website. http://www.lusciousgarage.com/ Carolyn, John, and the other techs are very good about answering questions, and taking seriously the concerns of car owners. Shannah On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Tim wrote: > OH yea, we are looking at an 07 with 143K on it. We can't afford a lower > mileage car but have no choice--we have to buy something. The wife totaled > her car Saturday and we have to have two cars. > > > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Tim wrote: > > Looking for people's feedback, input, experiences, etc on camry hybrids. >> I know literally nothing about hybirds and always like the info, etc I read >> here. >> >> My wife read 150K mileage battery life. Does anyone know if this is this >> actually accurate? I've read battery replacement costs from $3K to $5K. >> Anyone have any experience replacing a camry battery? >> >> Thanks >> tim >> ______________________________**_________________ >> >> Shop-talk@autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** >> options/shop-talk/tputland@**charter.net >> > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**options/shop-talk/** > shannahquilts@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 06:26:40 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1F042480 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 06:26:40 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ye0-f182.google.com (mail-ye0-f182.google.com [209.85.213.182]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00144069B for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 06:21:34 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ye0-f182.google.com with SMTP id q5so42943yen.27 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 05:16:49 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cVramB2KkBvlA1CABINMfnwezXInDDiLHx5Y0WLk+70=; b=SWvJ/OIVW+fl2/PCzaO7l/HgzhvYOdVXVkajcW0sGqQ7yL8+O8vDLA/NkI3TUtDWW3 DQC1ikfk/Ounx2XAtMz2zJ6Tmy/zW5ZnwHkdXxQGzDBFcHPXJbp7MUU+ykfLsJgqRwP2 GbeaeCI/JE5wvtsR/1yS6w1QKAstSZKt5CCkE9mN0s7R09aIMcsu8jMAWRaj21TwcqMH iuMp0vHbCC89qOhZ9qzA8X3qNLg3sjYXk6g7GDZmccUK6HvxV1UNW5htnsnzDvVnpo1c GLOXWnTK+rOjJOvXrliYSkzZyjTGRLcLllDAaFEv8kkTsEngW1J9XN3JnFbJdCPvOTkI uhNQ== i51mr969400yhf.64.1359465409126; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 05:16:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b54sm13386647yhj.19.2013.01.29.05.16.47 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 29 Jan 2013 05:16:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:16:41 -0800 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I love hybrids--both the concept and Toyota's execution of them. Having said that...I second the advice about looking at non-hybrids. Several co-workers have various hybrids and I suspect the advertised m.p.g. claims aren't being reached. I wanted a Pruis, and my plan was to get one from the dealer for a test drive and drive it a week to see what kind of mileage I got on my commute, but Toyota isn't Acura et al and won't let you keep one that long. Mileage is obviously highly dependent on personal driving habits, but I think that's even more a factor for a Toyota-style hybrid. So long as you accelerate gently enough and stay below a certain speed, the electric motor is supposed to power the whole car. I'm sure there's a certain amount of driver training you'll do to yourself, but you also have to account for hills and traffic on your commute, and the best way to see is to just drive one over the route several times and...see. Anyway, one co-worker insists she gets 50+ m.p.g., but her husband says she's putting gas in the tank at about the same rate as when she owned a Civic, according to the credit card statements. A few admit to disappointment on mileage, but that could be a factor of missed (unrealistic) expectations, and the mileage could still be very good. The Camry hybrid and Priuses I got as rentals didn't impress me, but I drove them like a regular car, I wasn't on my daily commute, and I think I remember reading that hybrids 'learn' your driving somewhat, which would be messed up in a rental. I ended up not buying a hybrid. Dunno, just some thoughts. And if you get one, let us know what sort of mileage you get, would you? Oh, and my neighbor converted a Pruis into a plug-in hybrid and has decals all over it that say 100 m.p.g. I've got the web site written down somewhere if you buy the Camry and want to check it out. I'd imagine if anyone knew how to get those things to make excellent mileage it'd be him. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 07:57:48 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5437742482 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:57:48 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1EF742450 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:57:39 -0700 (MST) a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:17 a=ExDAyBU5CxkA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=Y9zj3w3WI_gA:10 a=k_2Rg3A9QJBF0bmbMTsA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=iHrfZUqj8pI4/cobIDz1/A==:117 Received: from [76.168.149.236] ([76.168.149.236:55007] helo=randall) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id DB/D1-26261-642E7015; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:52:55 +0000 From: "Randall" To: Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 06:52:57 -0800 Thread-Index: Ac3+I6gHJkYmRH1DS1Oyh+BNdXHfFgACJ7Og Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > Mileage is obviously highly dependent on personal driving > habits, but I think that's even more a factor for a > Toyota-style hybrid. A good friend of mine has owned several Priuses (or whatever the plural is). He claimed to routinely get over 50 mpg on his commute to work (in LA traffic but in the carpool lane), while his "leadfoot" wife only gets around 40. He once borrowed my wagon for a few days and I got to drive his 1st gen Prius; my average was 48.2 (according to the onboard computer) just driving somewhat conservatively (no hypermiling or anything like that) on my usual mix of surface and freeway. But maintenance costs have been high, particularly tires (which are a special high load capacity, low rolling resistance construction that wears out quickly); the high voltage battery has already failed once (although after some fighting with Toyota, he got them to cover half of the $7k replacement cost); and it was going to cost some $500 to replace the AC condenser. So when the carpool sticker expired last year, he traded the Prius on a Leaf. He really likes it, but just last week he was talking about how he couldn't get to work and back with the headlights, wipers and heater all running. The silly mileage claims for plug-in hybrids (and full electrics) depend heavily on what equivalence you choose between kWh and gallons. They tend to fall apart when you use your actual marginal cost for the electricity (I only pay about $.16/kWh on average, but the last kWh each month costs more like $.33) and factor in things like the cost of the charging station. YMMV and all that. -- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 08:12:58 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16C442482 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:12:58 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 271BA42274 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:12:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:08:07 -0800 id 000000000028001F.000000005107E5D7.00003959 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:07:36 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/29/2013 8:16 AM, Scott wrote: > I love hybrids--both the concept and Toyota's execution of them. The concept's okay if you don't mind the extra complexity and package size. But...I've found late-model Toyota product to be pretty unpleasant vehicles to drive. There's something about the last couple generations of Camry - the driving position, somehow - that's just a little off for me. All the late-model Toyotas I've driven have flat, slabby seats that presumably are compromised for the three-hundie buyer, but I'm not and I don't like them. And the shape suffers somewhat (not as bad as a Merc CLS, but enough that even my car-ignorant sister-in-law would notice) from shrinking-window syndrome. Mechanically, the Prius works better. Really well, in fact. The engine's happier, without the groans and shakes that accompany the Camry's bigger four. The chassis is surprisingly good (better than the last generation, it doesn't hobby-horse and it knows where straight ahead is.) It's a Toyota, so the cheap hard plastic interior at least fits together pretty well, the caveat about flat unsupportive seats still applies. But...I could never own one. It's like driving a jail cell. Those long, flat A-pillars narrow the forward field of vision to about 40 degrees. Beyond that you're bobbing and weaving around to look through little holes and slices and notches in the glass in front and behind you. It just gets very tiring to drive the thing after a while. I had a second-gen car as a loaner for a couple weeks back when my M5 was still under warranty and the dealer had to take the dash apart to fix an AC whistle. I drove it like I would anything else I own, up and down the SF peninsula, and got exactly 40mpg average. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 08:41:49 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E644249F for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:41:49 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dfn.com (mail.dfn.com [74.116.128.7]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6A342273 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:36:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.0.2] [199.83.117.102] by dfn.com with ESMTP (SMTPD-11.5) id bcec001c798423c6; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:31:20 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:31:22 -0700 From: Michael Porter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: John Miller References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/29/2013 8:07 AM, John Miller wrote: > On 1/29/2013 8:16 AM, Scott wrote: >> I love hybrids--both the concept and Toyota's execution of them. > > > I had a second-gen car as a loaner for a couple weeks back when my M5 > was still under warranty and the dealer had to take the dash apart to > fix an AC whistle. I drove it like I would anything else I own, up > and down the SF peninsula, and got exactly 40mpg average. > Apples and oranges. Your M5 is a car with an MRSP of over $80K. Do you really expect a car for half or less than that price--and with technology radically different than yours--to be better overall? (And I say that as a pleased new owner of a twelve-year-old BMW 530i 5-spd that gets 31 mpg on the highway.) Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 09:17:38 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA864248E for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:17:38 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44D5740E5E for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:17:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.167.47.220] ([::ffff:166.134.142.212]) (AUTH: LOGIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,AES128-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:12:44 -0800 id 00000000002800BD.000000005107F4FD.00004071 User-Agent: Kaiten Mail References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> From: John Miller Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:11:53 -0800 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net >Apples and oranges. Your M5 is a car with an MRSP of over $80K. 70k E39, and that has nothing to do with it. I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better seats, better material quality, and better outward visibility than any present Toyota. John. -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 09:30:29 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB44424A1 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:30:28 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dfn.com (mail.dfn.com [74.116.128.7]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BE0040558 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:30:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.0.2] [199.83.117.102] by dfn.com with ESMTP (SMTPD-11.5) id 721a001cb77e4e6d; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:25:33 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:25:36 -0700 From: Michael Porter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: John Miller References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/29/2013 9:11 AM, John Miller wrote: >> Apples and oranges. Your M5 is a car with an MRSP of over $80K. > 70k E39, and that has nothing to do with it. Oh, yes, it does, because that's your standard for comparison (what year?-a 2007 is $82K). $70K is still about double the cost of the cars to which you're making a judgment. > I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better seats, better material quality, and better outward visibility than any present Toyota. And, your `86 Celica gets about 22-24 mpg overall. Don't kid a kidder--I was a Toyota factory-trained, master line mechanic in the `80s. I know the technology of that time. Good cars for the age, but, don't bullshit me. Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 09:43:33 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38587424CF for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:43:33 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ia0-f180.google.com (mail-ia0-f180.google.com [209.85.210.180]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 378B540E3B for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:38:33 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ia0-f180.google.com with SMTP id f27so817830iae.25 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:33:48 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date :to; bh=vEDoZ8ql4s7mKAb/h8xZEranB0DkDaktGQd6dBInIuY=; b=xcCBLQ7UV/RKHvECzhZhEdoEc8Hcf2BZNLhwPkt6jj2lvweTm6SnCvXnER61BfJMPZ MGyXArFqfYy1B14MBzL+UnUvfZYvP96KV65WZYGU0wiMxJUBnvQypB+Q02J9nP7/++/9 LkQBePldFjnuyB1zduVdg4fgKP6fyPjpz+mSrQQfaB7uANbwOGuFfBHqN33rs/HeQrTd lsTb5ZhjODfgYLPdcawxuIC/1+P3J2L2YpstkxAX2yWzwOiSgzLlN/CoPj9FdZR8A9PR KhKJw4TI51YSU/DgZ6Bpl0miPzD97bLfR7jUNTnBgQIArYvTr6Q501lqeiFQh+XoGhxl vpGQ== s2mr1398883igj.56.1359477228843; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:33:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.71.232.193] (mobile-198-228-233-006.mycingular.net. [198.228.233.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id wo10sm2014892igc.13.2013.01.29.08.33.46 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:33:47 -0800 (PST) References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> From: Paul Parkanzky Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:30:54 -0500 To: Michael Porter Cc: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have to agree that the modern Toyotas have pretty terrible seats and are incredibly numb to drive. And that's comparing it to our '09 TDI Jetta and '10 TDI Golf. For the record, I don't like the seats in the Jetta nearly as well as in the Golf, but they're still better than the Toyotas I've driven. -Paul On Jan 29, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Michael Porter wrote: > On 1/29/2013 9:11 AM, John Miller wrote: >>> Apples and oranges. Your M5 is a car with an MRSP of over $80K. >> 70k E39, and that has nothing to do with it. > > Oh, yes, it does, because that's your standard for comparison (what year?-a 2007 is $82K). $70K is still about double the cost of the cars to which you're making a judgment. >> I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better seats, better material quality, and better outward visibility than any present Toyota. > > And, your `86 Celica gets about 22-24 mpg overall. Don't kid a kidder--I was a Toyota factory-trained, master line mechanic in the `80s. I know the technology of that time. > > Good cars for the age, but, don't bullshit me. > > > Cheers. > > -- > > > Michael Porter > Roswell, NM _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 09:57:53 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B730424C7 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:57:53 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtprelay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0124.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.124]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551FB40548 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:52:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from filter.hostedemail.com (ff-bigip1 [10.5.19.254]) by smtprelay08.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0292D234292 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:47:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.109] (host216-187.lsdepts.ucsb.edu [128.111.216.187]) (Authenticated sender: mikey@rambour.com) by omf11.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:47:40 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:47:39 -0800 From: Mike Rambour User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120827 Thunderbird/15.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Hybrids are nice, a friend owns a Prius and while there was nothing wrong his 3 year old one, he traded it in on a new one a month ago. He wanted the "cooler" that tries to keep the interior cool while the car is parked at work, some kind of fan that exhausts the hot air. That was it, that is why he traded in his 3 year old car. He gets great mileage with the car and brags about it all the time, he works 6 miles from home and drives about 7,000 miles a year based on the mileage of his trade in. If you amortize the cost of the car, the MPG costs get pretty high. But they are NOT for me! I firmly believe life is too short to not drive the car you want, I get 14MPG when I am lucky and if I didn't need to hear that 3.6l V8 screaming at 8,000RPM inches behind me, I might get better mileage but I can't stop listening to it. When my friend drives with me, we get to work with huge smiles and start off the workday with a smile, no matter how bad a day I had at work, just walking out to the parking lot and seeing my car lifts my spirits, fire it up and my smile is back. We don't have that smile in his car. When my wife first drove my car to her work (local high school) she said it was surprising to her how much more she enjoyed the drive both to work and then home. But she does not drive it to work often, the kids pay too much attention to the car and she is afraid it will get scratched if she pisses one of them off, so she only drives it work maybe 2-3 times a month. A Prius and other hybrids are get from point-a to point-b appliances but life is too short for that type of living, life is all about getting to point-b from point-a via point-c and maybe even point-d. I am a 15,000-20,000 miles per year kind of guy, it may be 6 miles to work, but its often 40+ miles over the mountain roads to get home and then there is the weekends :) To each his own, some people are all about the maximum MPG no matter what the initial cost of the car is, others are all about the maximum SPG (smiles per gallon). Mike _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 09:59:01 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCAC140E3B for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:59:01 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-lb0-f182.google.com (mail-lb0-f182.google.com [209.85.217.182]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CCC740E46 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:58:55 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-lb0-f182.google.com with SMTP id gg6so1007092lbb.27 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:54:10 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=wORHomLFdpFwcsLYlL5ckijuXw2H4ujLg0Ms1bJRZK4=; b=rObQzUC+p/jRPaQDvu2kEqfcZcqIeyvkWrEl6LWOz5h7aAncGiPutQ9G6p9xvdUAcl /wOtrp+osw+k/KtlI18ciMI41do55lcsyM6CeXLVuEy7o2WVdoqOX4iq5xmRyJaWFa6g a21KKO28u/tkGOgqrvcM7etliHnxCrTmBeXm8jw+vY7nd28040H+GJw8tVbwiJOmR+Lo CZz7JGdc3RSdd3a/Tlz1jmtOOMTmcyhrKeqsh1+hnXD7O259CTnIuAkD2eKEMlMH+iCZ aa3kJFpVRGsn7XC00fbrP0fAF4CVwfOUv8zkItEsOAI79P4Hbi46B8JBgqO6hR/jFtRY UtbA== fp17mr1834029lab.0.1359478449814; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:54:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.20.66 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:54:09 -0800 (PST) References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:54:09 -0800 From: Shannah Miller To: Paul Parkanzky Cc: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Let me state upfront that I do like my 2010 Prius. That said, "numb" is a great way to describe it. It's my understanding that the brakes are computer controlled. This leads to zero road feel in the brake pedal, and it works oddly at times. Sometimes, I put my foot on the brake, and it slams on immediately with very little travel in the pedal. Other times, I put my foot on the brake, and it travels a very long way before reluctantly slowing down the car. If I persist, it will stop, but in its own sweet time. Luckily, after someone rear ended me (lots of damage) last year, the brakes have been better (no idea why) but they are still chancy enough that I will not be handing this car down to my son when he gets his license. I have a friend who occasionally needs to drive one of our cars, and she strongly prefers the 2005 to the 2010. I had to take my car to an independent mechanic (Luscious Garage) to get the headlights adjusted, because they were so low I could not see to drive at night, and the dealership kept telling me they were fine. Had I known then what I know now, I would have kept my Acura TSX and waited for a Volt, or Leaf, or something. I don't see having a hybrid or electric car as something that I'm doing directly for the environment. I am supporting the technology so that it improves to the point where it *does* make a big difference. Shannah On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:30 AM, Paul Parkanzky wrote: > I have to agree that the modern Toyotas have pretty terrible seats and are > incredibly numb to drive. And that's comparing it to our '09 TDI Jetta and > '10 TDI Golf. For the record, I don't like the seats in the Jetta nearly > as > well as in the Golf, but they're still better than the Toyotas I've driven. > > -Paul > > On Jan 29, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Michael Porter wrote: > > > On 1/29/2013 9:11 AM, John Miller wrote: > >>> Apples and oranges. Your M5 is a car with an MRSP of over $80K. > >> 70k E39, and that has nothing to do with it. > > > > Oh, yes, it does, because that's your standard for comparison (what > year?-a > 2007 is $82K). $70K is still about double the cost of the cars to which > you're making a judgment. > >> I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better > seats, > better material quality, and better outward visibility than any present > Toyota. > > > > And, your `86 Celica gets about 22-24 mpg overall. Don't kid a kidder--I > was a Toyota factory-trained, master line mechanic in the `80s. I know the > technology of that time. > > > > Good cars for the age, but, don't bullshit me. > > > > > > Cheers. > > > > -- > > > > > > Michael Porter > > Roswell, NM > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shannahquilts@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 10:01:25 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 011CB424D8 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:01:25 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68A5240C00 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:01:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:56:31 -0800 id 000000000028001B.000000005107FF3F.00004629 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:56:00 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net >> I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better >> seats, better material quality, and better outward visibility than any >> present Toyota. > > And, your `86 Celica gets about 22-24 mpg overall. Don't kid a > kidder--I was a Toyota factory-trained, master line mechanic in the > `80s. I know the technology of that time. > > Good cars for the age, but, don't bullshit me. And please don't bullshit me. Read what I wrote. I said that '86 Celica had: a) better seats b) better material quality c) better outward visibility than any present Toyota. Do you dispute those points? Please explain where I said anything about the powertrain or fuel economy. There's no question that there've been substantial changes (mostly but not all improvements) in powertrain technology since 1986. My original point still stands: a) Present-day Toyotas (and it's true of many of the other Japanese brands as well) have been thrifted and decontented mercilessly over the past two decades, to the point that it widely affects parts of the vehicle you see and feel. b) The material quality is nowhere near what it was twenty years ago (you have to shop in the Lexus store to get material quality comparable to what was the norm in Toyota-label products in the early '90s) c) They've always had tendencies toward odd designs but in some cases they've gone full-tilt down the weird hole often to the detriment of functionality. I would note here that while Honda followed the Prius-style extended A-pillars with the last couple generations of Civic, the new Civic-based small Acura pulls them back to a more traditional shape. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 10:14:58 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07149424B4 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:14:58 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.227]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8034240E93 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:13:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.52]) by qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id toXT1k00B17UAYkACt8gpQ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:08:40 +0000 Received: from sz0054.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.138]) by omta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id tt8f1k00o2yr1eL8Zt8fd2; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:08:39 +0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:08:39 +0000 (UTC) From: Bob Spidell To: Mike Rambour s=q20121106; t=1359479320; bh=I0hdpIn/IqFvbUUYu4/21Ckwn5SOAP14fdxowbD3LXI=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=VmQsQyMS63uCp/iQNUsWoSOE5aiemhrq9aMz5KZmYUVexBJzd1dsBS56sg8+Rdwxi PHSKv/waW3j1QFzK9zIgEImMAiyTs41o6B7legIxKh7vdG7l7h5Ij6ZCLZbvV3jxbr FPGBBHrTP/V7Byv5F7k+8XkRzrXyHU/VfaHEGgq9teeDbZuei+7gbTPhNJw7M3myHR G8/mGCtyrDrG7KWAn+WeapbxnRBz8gX7BMQ1mJKrOuR6z5z1hRuLP+SLRX/XidOOc8 ib8E1f0Op1iXJcQLOmmnIK0/5gJRSWOtazM10LfhC0GtUrbN+egewcvmq7Hm2ksV15 WpqwZfnhjkQhA== Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net +1 -------------------------------- Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Rambour" To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:47:39 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Hybrids are nice, a friend owns a Prius and while there was nothing wrong his 3 year old one, he traded it in on a new one a month ago. He wanted the "cooler" that tries to keep the interior cool while the car is parked at work, some kind of fan that exhausts the hot air. That was it, that is why he traded in his 3 year old car. He gets great mileage with the car and brags about it all the time, he works 6 miles from home and drives about 7,000 miles a year based on the mileage of his trade in. If you amortize the cost of the car, the MPG costs get pretty high. But they are NOT for me! I firmly believe life is too short to not drive the car you want, I get 14MPG when I am lucky and if I didn't need to hear that 3.6l V8 screaming at 8,000RPM inches behind me, I might get better mileage but I can't stop listening to it. When my friend drives with me, we get to work with huge smiles and start off the workday with a smile, no matter how bad a day I had at work, just walking out to the parking lot and seeing my car lifts my spirits, fire it up and my smile is back. We don't have that smile in his car. When my wife first drove my car to her work (local high school) she said it was surprising to her how much more she enjoyed the drive both to work and then home. But she does not drive it to work often, the kids pay too much attention to the car and she is afraid it will get scratched if she pisses one of them off, so she only drives it work maybe 2-3 times a month. A Prius and other hybrids are get from point-a to point-b appliances but life is too short for that type of living, life is all about getting to point-b from point-a via point-c and maybe even point-d. I am a 15,000-20,000 miles per year kind of guy, it may be 6 miles to work, but its often 40+ miles over the mountain roads to get home and then there is the weekends :) To each his own, some people are all about the maximum MPG no matter what the initial cost of the car is, others are all about the maximum SPG (smiles per gallon). Mike _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 10:16:04 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB91D4252F for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:16:04 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vb0-f44.google.com (mail-vb0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ACFF40066 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:16:00 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vb0-f44.google.com with SMTP id fc26so409361vbb.17 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:11:15 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=dkjUF7qKIdhXv0XqnP1GlMmtQZm0H8iN5ohQicYPTkw=; b=FFZQzCLKMuNTvy1zCRblG3rzXh4lm7hExKsawvKcuF7PEaF8bOL4SWBOHAhGd1zJZd RFDDT7mQpq3houO0fkgYeU7S/YUx2fcH0xTJLLtNporhC2KWbIYE8mqRa30Obw4Vzc/Z A7/rBOgRtEfo6fsMYjRaX/B7A7R8heByvK2dojVqANqy7S2YwWGxMsp75CyR6cp+Jo7+ ZzyuWyYeszZOdAQpeO4dIRGw8gNYKy91GjsnrLn7pdafG+1fkad7jPV4ib6WKHAyMyem 0TzNs8SWMxkqgbiOvZNk7qGUP2R2/UY24Tt+szxvPRmKDCRn67oC/m/FifcoNar0tKeZ CHLw== b4mr1572618vdw.52.1359479475125; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.167.3 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:10:54 -0800 (PST) References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> From: Miq Millman Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:10:54 -0800 To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net There are multiple studies available that compare Diesel to Hybrid and for the cost per mile, plus long term recycling (li-ion battery == land fill waste == not green) the Diesel is better, even paying more at the pump for the go go juice. This is especially true of used cars that are closer to their 10 year replacement storage pack. Considering you can find a used Jetta TDI for between $5-9K (2003-2007) and a Camry Hybrid is about 2x that, the extra $5000 you would have spent on the hybrid goes a long way to pay for the extra $0.30/gallon. Not to mention the $7000 replacement battery..... For the record, my 2003 E39 530i sport is by far the best handling, most comfortable, 5 seater I've ever driven. It get's 34 mpg on the highway between Portland and Seattle on cruise at 70 mph. I'll likely have this one in my cardrobe for the next 20 years. (just ticked over 74k miles, I average about 4500 a year in it). As old age and treachery becomes more prominent in our lives, I say buy a car for the connection you have strongest with with: your buttocks in the seat. Comfy seats go a long way towards alleviating the other annoyances (wind noise, tire noise, poor mpg, poor acceleration).... Happy curmudgeon day. -- __ Miq Millman miq@bigllama.com Tualatin, OR Big Llama Productions On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:30 AM, Paul Parkanzky wrote: > I have to agree that the modern Toyotas have pretty terrible seats and are > incredibly numb to drive. And that's comparing it to our '09 TDI Jetta and > '10 TDI Golf. For the record, I don't like the seats in the Jetta nearly > as > well as in the Golf, but they're still better than the Toyotas I've driven. > > -Paul > > On Jan 29, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Michael Porter wrote: > > > On 1/29/2013 9:11 AM, John Miller wrote: > >>> Apples and oranges. Your M5 is a car with an MRSP of over $80K. > >> 70k E39, and that has nothing to do with it. > > > > Oh, yes, it does, because that's your standard for comparison (what > year?-a > 2007 is $82K). $70K is still about double the cost of the cars to which > you're making a judgment. > >> I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better > seats, > better material quality, and better outward visibility than any present > Toyota. > > > > And, your `86 Celica gets about 22-24 mpg overall. Don't kid a kidder--I > was a Toyota factory-trained, master line mechanic in the `80s. I know the > technology of that time. > > > > Good cars for the age, but, don't bullshit me. > > > > > > Cheers. > > > > -- > > > > > > Michael Porter > > Roswell, NM > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 10:29:14 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3B1424B9 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:29:14 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76D4D403C8 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:24:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:19:36 -0800 id 000000000028001B.00000000510804A8.0000498C Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:19:04 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107FD2B.3000601@dinospider.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > don't have that smile in his car. When my wife first drove my car to > her work (local high school) she said it was surprising to her how much > more she enjoyed the drive both to work and then home. But she does not > drive it to work often, the kids pay too much attention to the car and > she is afraid it will get scratched if she pisses one of them off, so > she only drives it work maybe 2-3 times a month. There's apparently a large buyer base out there who cares about nothing but fuel economy and iPhone integration. Really, though, the Prius these days goes pretty well (especially if you push the 'Power' button.) In daily use it feels like a really good CVT hooked to an engine with a nice fat torque curve - what's really going on of course is that the electric motor's filling in the holes in the gasoline engine's response. The response to the gas pedal is better than most of the small-engine-plus-automatic combinations out there. If it were just packaged in something that had the greenhouse and ergonomics of a 2002 (or an AE86 Corolla) it'd be wonderful. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 10:29:43 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69078424DE for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:29:43 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dfn.com (mail.dfn.com [74.116.128.7]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B66240324 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:27:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.0.2] [199.83.117.102] by dfn.com with ESMTP (SMTPD-11.5) id f510001cf8de7aa4; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:22:30 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:22:33 -0700 From: Michael Porter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: John Miller References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/29/2013 9:56 AM, John Miller wrote: >>> I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better >>> seats, better material quality, and better outward visibility than any >>> present Toyota. >> >> And, your `86 Celica gets about 22-24 mpg overall. Don't kid a >> kidder--I was a Toyota factory-trained, master line mechanic in the >> `80s. I know the technology of that time. >> >> Good cars for the age, but, don't bullshit me. > > And please don't bullshit me. Read what I wrote. > > I said that '86 Celica had: > > a) better seats > b) better material quality > c) better outward visibility > > than any present Toyota. And, it got much shittier mileage, and, maybe, the newer cars don't because of changes to the overall configuration, including seats and the shape of the envelope. > > Do you dispute those points? Please explain where I said anything > about the powertrain or fuel economy. You didn't. Which means you ignored the changes made for increased mileage. > > There's no question that there've been substantial changes (mostly but > not all improvements) in powertrain technology since 1986. > > My original point still stands: Does it? You whined about seating and visibility, based on experience with other makes. > > a) Present-day Toyotas (and it's true of many of the other Japanese > brands as well) have been thrifted and decontented mercilessly over > the past two decades, to the point that it widely affects parts of the > vehicle you see and feel. Based on your experiences with a much more expensive car, and a small amount of time with a car of lesser value and much higher mileage than the one you're used to driving. > > b) The material quality is nowhere near what it was twenty years ago > (you have to shop in the Lexus store to get material quality > comparable to what was the norm in Toyota-label products in the early > '90s) To some extent, I agree with this. Toyota put much more effort and money into the high-dollar Lexus than its lesser brands, and that cost them market share (the recent problems with throttle/braking issues is just one aspect of the problem--they've tried to incorporate technological changes across the lines that didn't work well. They spent so much money on Lexus technology that they expected to filter down and be suitable for low-end models--and which didn't--that they've now had to retrench and rethink what they've been doing). > > c) They've always had tendencies toward odd designs but in some cases > they've gone full-tilt down the weird hole often to the detriment of > functionality. I would note here that while Honda followed the > Prius-style extended A-pillars with the last couple generations of > Civic, the new Civic-based small Acura pulls them back to a more > traditional shape. > Why this emphasis on A-pillars? That seems to be a peculiarity unique to you and unrelated to the cars. I adapt to the front and side views whatever car I'm in, whether it's the GT6 I still use occasionally, or the BMW. I think that's just an anachronism that's particular to you and not the car design. A-pillars really don't mean shit. C'mon, ever since the `30s, they've been pretty thin and unobtrusive. Maybe you're manufacturing a complaint here. Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 10:47:08 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD87F425A3 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:47:08 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83AA0427BA for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:46:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:42:00 -0800 id 000000000028001E.00000000510809E8.00004B9F Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:41:28 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > Based on your experiences with a much more expensive car, and a small > amount of time with a car of lesser value and much higher mileage than > the one you're used to driving. Let's see here. Since 1981 I've driven two or more examples of virtually every Toyota product built. Corollas, Celicas, a few Camrys, Mk2/3 Supras and a Mk4. Land Cruisers, 4Runners, the occasional pickup and Cressida. Only owned two, but a brother-in-law was a Toyota dealer for a few years so they were all over the family. IS300s (someday I may go find a good one of those, that was one very nice car), GS, LS. I don't fit in the Lexus ES or the later GSes so I try to avoid those. In that period I've also owned a fair number of Fords, Saabs, VWs, BMWs, two Suburbans and an Audi. > To some extent, I agree with this. Toyota put much more effort and > money into the high-dollar Lexus than its lesser brands, Toyota put a lot of money into starting the Lexus dealership body correctly. They screwed their dealers down to a very high standard of behavior. As for the cars themselves, they're Toyotas. Very elaborate Toyotas, and almost the only US Toyota product still built in Japan, but Toyotas. > Why this emphasis on A-pillars? That seems to be a peculiarity unique to > you and unrelated to the cars. Perhaps it's my peculiarity but there are three things that matter to me when I sit down in a car: the seat, the steering, and the outward visibility. How the powertrain behaves, or even the ultimate limits of the suspension, those might be an annoyance later, or you might work around their limits. But the driving position, the outward visibility, and the steering is either right or wrong in the first minute. This is as true for a VW Beetle as an E39 BMW. I can think of only one car I've owned where I was fooled - we bought a '92 Infiniti Q45. Beautifully built, very fast, its 278 horses were much beefier animals than the 282 BMW put in the 540i that replaced it, when it hit its 145mph speed limiter you'd actually feel a pretty good lurch as it cut you back. But the footwells were so shallow, the distance from pan to roof too short, so for someone 6'1" like me you're either sitting with your legs straight out or your head wedged in the headliner. My 5'2" wife thought it was just fine. Also, 2.1-turn steering and 4200lb of mass do not go together, it was a twitchy beast. Nissan slowed the steering down in '93. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 11:00:17 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC1C5425AC for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:00:17 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dfn.com (mail.dfn.com [74.116.128.7]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAC5D42494 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:00:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.0.2] [199.83.117.102] by dfn.com with ESMTP (SMTPD-11.5) id d078001d16378e0c; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:55:22 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:55:25 -0700 From: Michael Porter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: John Miller References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/29/2013 10:41 AM, John Miller wrote: > > But the footwells were so shallow, the distance from pan to roof too > short, so for someone 6'1" like me you're either sitting with your > legs straight out or your head wedged in the headliner. My 5'2" wife > thought it was just fine. Also, 2.1-turn steering and 4200lb of mass > do not go together, it was a twitchy beast. Nissan slowed the > steering down in '93. > I'm 6'4" and I just barely fit in a GT6 (which I've been driving for the last seven years). I'm guess I'm not as fussy as you. Sitting in a 530i is like being in an opera seat to me. :) Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 11:16:59 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C45E426BA for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:16:59 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtprelay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0023.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.23]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AD440EA1 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:16:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from filter.hostedemail.com (ff-bigip1 [10.5.19.254]) by smtprelay04.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0000557EB0 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:12:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.109] (host216-187.lsdepts.ucsb.edu [128.111.216.187]) (Authenticated sender: mikey@rambour.com) by omf11.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:12:07 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:12:07 -0800 From: Mike Rambour User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120827 Thunderbird/15.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net can we keep the my dick is bigger than your dick discussion out of the hybrid discussion ? cuz if not, this is the internet and you will lose to me anyway. The issues with hybrids to me are that they are not fun to drive, I don't care about MPG I care about fun. No I am not rich but I budget for my gasoline because the car I choose to drive gets such bad mileage. When my car was in the shop for its annual maintenance and new front ball joints, they gave me a Porsche Panamera Hybrid to drive for the week, it was a nice car but still not fun to drive. I did not like the transition from electric to gas, I hated hearing the engine shut off while driving at low speeds. But it did get up and go very nicely, I actually had no issues with the function of the car just issues with the lack of enjoyment. It also was way too big a car, cup holders everywhere, electric crap everywhere, I was so happy to get back into my car with no cupholders, no back seat, no cruise control, just the basics with a V8 and 6 gears. And just like my wife's car (Hyundai Veloster) which has lousy seat, my friends Prius with lousy seat, the Panamera's seats were also uncomfortable after a few hours in the car. I am beginning to think its a requirement for Hybrids to be uncomfortable. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 11:18:00 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD61426BA for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:18:00 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from eastrmfepo102.cox.net (eastrmfepo102.cox.net [68.230.241.214]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD14042583 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:17:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from eastrmimpo305 ([68.230.241.237]) by eastrmfepo102.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.04.00 201-2260-137-20101110) with ESMTP id <20130129181310.FYGD7113.eastrmfepo102.cox.net@eastrmimpo305> for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:13:10 -0500 Received: from Blackie ([72.209.198.214]) by eastrmimpo305 with cox id tuD81k0034e2Beo01uD8Gx; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:13:10 -0500 a=z+JOQeSqIXLCGjBsmWTDRw==:17 a=G8Uczd0VNMoA:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=Y9zj3w3WI_gA:10 a=wjEf5JnCzaGd9uuW_C4A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=z+JOQeSqIXLCGjBsmWTDRw==:117 Authentication-Results: cox.net; none From: "Mullen" To: References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:13:12 -0500 Thread-Index: AQGhUWB2DRIl04MyZg5UTaGxHWqPfAF+iVicAeDbKRgBqYJnjgF/1qN9AmG6UEUCmMFz3gGzbSXiAU1KJFMBrtE9YZg4XlVA Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net The other thing to do is just ignore the hybrids and get a regular car that gets good mileage. Last summer my wife needed a new car and since she's having foot problems - broken bone in on and a torn Achilles heel in the other, we decided to try an automatic. First automatic in over 33 years of marriage, Anyway, the Hyundai Accent is advertised to get 40 MPG, and sure enough, some around town driving drops it back to 30-35 MPG, but her five day commute brings it up to 40 MPG or more. It's a small car, but not too small, drives nice, handles nice, rides nice. It's not a Lotus when it comes to performance, but it will easily keep up or surpass a Camry or Civic. It was a great investment, and was under 20,000 for a new car and I do believe I'll get my monies worth out of it (I tend to keep cars until they fall apart - still driving a '93 Accord with 240,000 miles on it). We like it, we just probably won't want to take it on a cross country trip to California (from Virginia). Our previous car (son inherited it) was a Hyundai Elantra and it's a couple of years older - rated for 30 MPG and gets there all the time. It's a bit bigger and could easily server as our cross country transportation. Try one of the Hyundai's you will be surprised at the quality - they are real cars, even though they are cheaper. Tim Mullen _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 11:34:46 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1F04259E for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:34:46 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta41.charter.net (mta41.charter.net [216.33.127.83]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDC5940E93 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:34:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp10 ([10.20.200.15]) by mta41.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.02 201-2260-151-103-20110920) with ESMTP id <20130129182954.MAJE10143.mta41.charter.net@imp10> for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:29:54 -0500 Received: from wt04 ([209.225.8.44]) by imp10 with smtp.charter.net id tuVu1k00D0x0GZM05uVuyD; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:29:54 -0500 a=NrW5UhCsb7nn2utAaUfzJA==:17 a=SPAKA3mDuA0A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=Y9zj3w3WI_gA:10 a=zOoktvdPAAAA:8 a=vv43QsQ5SKyXdSckg5UA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=J0aUVQLP0FIA:10 a=m3MdUl94G8cA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=NrW5UhCsb7nn2utAaUfzJA==:117 Received: from [165.189.65.12] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:29:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:29:54 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Shop Talk User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thanks for some of what was replied to me. As the other stuff that didn't help with my inquiry, well, you know what to do. As for toyota comfort, our recently wrecked 01 avalon was a rocket ship (even after 175k miles) and very very comfortable, even when three of four passengers were 6'0" or better, myself being 6'5". tim On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Tim wrote: > OH yea, we are looking at an 07 with 143K on it. We can't afford a > lower mileage car but have no choice--we have to buy something. The > wife totaled her car Saturday and we have to have two cars. > > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Tim wrote: > >> Looking for people's feedback, input, experiences, etc on camry >> hybrids. I know literally nothing about hybirds and always like the >> info, etc I read here. >> >> My wife read 150K mileage battery life. Does anyone know if this is >> this actually accurate? I've read battery replacement costs from $3K >> to $5K. Anyone have any experience replacing a camry battery? >> >> Thanks >> tim >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk@autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland@charter.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland@charter.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 11:35:55 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE9C6425AB for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:35:55 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A4040E93 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:35:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.36]) by qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id tqxE1k0030mlR8UA1uX68s; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:31:06 +0000 Received: from sz0220.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.138]) by omta11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id tuX61k00B2yr1eL8XuX6Nd; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:31:06 +0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:31:06 +0000 (UTC) From: pethier@comcast.net To: Mullen s=q20121106; t=1359484266; bh=NqnqyBhFFEpu+1bdwNmBhbgCgvwseE87uy8Otcssw8Y=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=iijS5/Byv0ZoKft67pDAAl7ufTKHlPyGKn5qaE4UFdCsr5WHbx8HMMdZFSTjE/F0H UftQYhZgA2hHAq/QufmjXrhPWn1izXAxBn3eKkxI1zOF1pFDHxVvr+CPcWDYtUAsl+ 6IhpvBpy+erN4qBt/X+i1Nv6QGOyAX8hwKuR6rar29xZ+Tg45J86p39GAaqBbfTIhj RZOXZeLrXSdnVZUilBypfeZ9b3HdgsXTPk0Zufl4wqkXyoMtY6T9MQcIKw7u7DeXBk oweqG7I8GE0OzH1I3rACSaz3IOxq/2tN40Vg48BiERZK/jgMgxWElb6yuhYt8/qj0I Cbwkm8Bn1XTsA== Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > The other thing to do is just ignore the hybrids and get a regular car > that > gets good mileage. The important factor here is how you are going to drive a car. If you spend a lot of time on the freeway in normal traffic, the hybrid is a waste of money. Any cheap econobox is gong to do better than hybrids in overall costs. If you spend all your time in short trips around town and sitting in traffic-jams in nice weather, the hybrid is the way to go. A plug-in hybrid even better. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier@comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica http://www.mnautox.com http://www.mntriumphs.org _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 12:05:08 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72142427C6 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:05:08 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-lb0-f175.google.com (mail-lb0-f175.google.com [209.85.217.175]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 646BE425AC for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:01:26 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-lb0-f175.google.com with SMTP id n3so1125052lbo.20 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:56:40 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Szr5vHCiSXlJaFYy0hHwMqlAJPgQIiEO++mLGArfaU4=; b=jRKrDGH8gcp71TaWiQfyMH8Sh/yww/m/AOvEwJ44jovmI/p9D/bKCsFBuE38w0sily GcX2IcUAF/EaZzlc3l5FUitxzqpxTOHf1wrKDUE6i8AZ8KvqWKII7Ex6KMQQhYCPAi/T IbcSgWBIxPT6ZW/EC7A2zE6VrDrKcez5F7WWcY/BH4XVbGdyuhDwAHQR8CjruGeV4qrm UnekCMnkGQZ/2YJsw9sec64Xuafvkn1jiNf2gb8aFpE8+CxrXxxeisOAI9pR/naYLF/J O9s4JnKNxELjyai3KJQyeJ6p3fLU2sIHrhgI3RR1xst4iMhxrNOALkoVzUa2KdKXC+um UOpA== om9mr2086359lab.18.1359485800408; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:56:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.41.164 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:56:40 -0800 (PST) References: <00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net> <962642674.189668.1359484266148.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:56:40 -0500 From: Jeff Scarbrough To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 1:31 PM, wrote: > The important factor here is how you are going to drive a car. If you spend a lot of time on the freeway in normal traffic, the hybrid is a waste of money. Any cheap econobox is gong to do better than hybrids in overall costs. > > If you spend all your time in short trips around town and sitting in traffic-jams in nice weather, the hybrid is the way to go. A plug-in hybrid even better. This ^^^ Only marginally connected to the discussion, we bought two new vehicles this year; one for me and one for my wife - which will be opassed down to my daughter in bout 18 months, when she goes off to college. I traded a 97 F150 V6 for a 2012 F-150 EcoBoost. I gained about 12% increase in fuel mileage, and for the first time in 15 years, I have a truck that can capably pull the car trailer...up to 11,300 pounds, they claim. And, it's fun to drive. Twin turbos = very little lag to speak of (when the occasion calls for Go!). I have 5300 miles on it, and it's 1000 percent more comfortable than the 97 econotruck. My wife got a 2012 Jetta SE. It's more of an appliance than a Car, since it's minimally equipped - the only gauge in the car is for fuel level - but it has power windows and doors, and Bluetooth for the phone. If it had automatic headlights (or on all the time like our Volvos) it would be perfect for its intended purpose. We looked at TDIs and liked them, but this was an end of the month, end of the model year, last on the lot special that we just couldn't pass up. The TDI would have been at least $6k more, which spoiled the economy of it. Both vehicles turned out to be a compromise between fuel mileage, which is probably the largest ongoing expense, and comfort/fun, which if it's lacking offsets the economy. But we've been pretty happy with both. And, when I need extra smileage, I can choose a Triumph. So there's that. Jeff Scarbrough Improving the economy in Corrosion Acres, Ga. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 12:33:28 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90162427C0 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:33:28 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-wg0-f45.google.com (mail-wg0-f45.google.com [74.125.82.45]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999A64258C for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:29:46 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-wg0-f45.google.com with SMTP id dq12so555740wgb.0 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:25:00 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=6ZidnSqdofpZXYKwTDP6Ga6i7PPgyUZX0mihB3UnR6Q=; b=xrL+h3DrtgcVGcEGuaQOAhaqewuIaUOJzAzyCpKuCXtaZm+3pq+9uGv/KxgIuiy8Dt Qfg4OTVvuSgmFWjVgpmk+adYn/Tt39at+llOCeVErDU8JmdAZD3Ff+oKu33zAOWOedSe b6HYFb1ElQ6CI+7/Szf6c42sTP3k0ramhhc9ihn0quC/2laonAVNddc6whkHT/fhi8er zurTBnIBE7excQcc2QoUc5OIHIdQiP8pcyz6fIt3KQFnYHBNH9TQdrhon7vtxJFud10e JVGPh9/87zXUnP0u2ONjQUvw7JRaiMvoSFTMycYyMRCUAyLhPJ0xEwe0H4VsDHb0BMWf pJNw== bp7mr4606860wjb.0.1359487500252; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.235.32 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:25:00 -0800 (PST) References: <00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net> <962642674.189668.1359484266148.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:25:00 -0600 From: Ronnie Day To: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net All too often people will buy a vehicle "to save money" but they don't calculate the real total cost of owning and driving. We have an '05 Accord LX 4-door with 196K on it.. Our commute is 75-80 miles per day, mostly rural highway, and we get 27 to 28 mpg. On trips up to DFW or to the San Antonio area we'll usualy get around 30 while on cross country trips it's not unusual to get 33+. The car's in really good shape and long paid for so while a new ride with better mileage is tempting, dollar wise it doesn't make sense when a $400/$500 payment is included, even getting 40 mpg. I think it's more or less the same idea with the '02 Suburban we bought last summer. We're the second owners and got it for $7200. Heck of a lot cheaper that $45K for a new one! Even at 17 or 18 mpg we're better off taking the Suburban instead of two high 20 mpg cars if we'll all fit in it. If the kids get too rowdy thre's always the roof rack! It's also got the full towing package with 3.73 gears so it'll handle a car hauler or travel trailer pretty well, too. Even if I had to rebuild the engine and trans (which I doubt, they're in great shape) I'm still way ahead compared to a new one. All that said, drive what you want for reasons that satisfy you, not someone else. For fun driving I hop in my Datsun 2000 and soon I'll add a couple of 510s. Just sayin' Ron On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 1:31 PM, wrote: > > The important factor here is how you are going to drive a car. If you > spend a lot of time on the freeway in normal traffic, the hybrid is a waste > of money. Any cheap econobox is gong to do better than hybrids in overall > costs. > > > > If you spend all your time in short trips around town and sitting in > traffic-jams in nice weather, the hybrid is the way to go. A plug-in > hybrid even better. > > > This ^^^ > > Only marginally connected to the discussion, we bought two new > vehicles this year; one for me and one for my wife - which will be > opassed down to my daughter in bout 18 months, when she goes off to > college. > > I traded a 97 F150 V6 for a 2012 F-150 EcoBoost. I gained about 12% > increase in fuel mileage, and for the first time in 15 years, I have a > truck that can capably pull the car trailer...up to 11,300 pounds, > they claim. And, it's fun to drive. Twin turbos = very little lag to > speak of (when the occasion calls for Go!). I have 5300 miles on it, > and it's 1000 percent more comfortable than the 97 econotruck. > > My wife got a 2012 Jetta SE. It's more of an appliance than a Car, > since it's minimally equipped - the only gauge in the car is for fuel > level - but it has power windows and doors, and Bluetooth for the > phone. If it had automatic headlights (or on all the time like our > Volvos) it would be perfect for its intended purpose. We looked at > TDIs and liked them, but this was an end of the month, end of the > model year, last on the lot special that we just couldn't pass up. > The TDI would have been at least $6k more, which spoiled the economy > of it. > > Both vehicles turned out to be a compromise between fuel mileage, > which is probably the largest ongoing expense, and comfort/fun, which > if it's lacking offsets the economy. But we've been pretty happy with > both. > > And, when I need extra smileage, I can choose a Triumph. So there's that. > > Jeff Scarbrough > Improving the economy in Corrosion Acres, Ga. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage : > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 14:38:25 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0288427AA for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:38:25 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ye0-f171.google.com (mail-ye0-f171.google.com [209.85.213.171]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4584C40558 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:38:16 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ye0-f171.google.com with SMTP id m8so157854yen.30 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:33:31 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IFQIIqCREBM5ptZVf3MHsJ9GnMCjRLjtfvBbBxRe8E8=; b=oseLWW5CF91I5JtoyU+4uqXNQ7o3JApue47O7BXjP9Xd7sLBx8vivGyQp/iv27Q/8x do4HW95TD6v2e/ap5OkcuxoaYg13LII/yyJGS/sLD7Sa25K7gab0mej8xySHLyhNqhBJ wkEaFFK19IZ18zlzUYyPR3HfqFSaZbNsEq60Sx9zF6AgIBpyY3hauROjkEHpFhNUdx8W XiWtqxa+w6CvVGFpjExkILaBXVTPLcq/NIxw/83nsXGGRvkwEU1tt4neXbnOB2E0Xcem aAzv6zbFwkXhufa5XoTOEH0UDxskoc0pvuI6bLF9R6lz4t8W2yIzlD7VQxZug2EYzcA3 4znA== n10mr3080232yhc.50.1359495211118; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:33:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e21sm5183699ani.0.2013.01.29.13.33.29 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:33:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:33:23 -0800 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/29/2013 7:07 AM, John Miller wrote: > There's something about the last couple generations of Camry - the > driving position, somehow - that's just a little off for me. All the > late-model Toyotas I've driven have flat, slabby seats that presumably > are compromised for the three-hundie buyer, but I'm not and I don't > like them. And the shape suffers somewhat (not as bad as a Merc CLS, > but enough that even my car-ignorant sister-in-law would notice) from > shrinking-window syndrome. You know, I've been friends for a long time with a Camry person. She's had the last four generations of them. And I have to agree--I like each successive generation less and less. The last one was the car that made me finally understand what everyone was talking about when they talked about a 'transportation appliance', but I agree with you that the comfort factor seems to go down each time too. But that's a personal preference. Clearly she likes them, or she wouldn't keep buying them. I've liked all the Priuses I've been in, but that might just be because I want to like them. Dunno. Scott _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 14:50:11 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C65427AF for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:50:11 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ye0-f169.google.com (mail-ye0-f169.google.com [209.85.213.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1229742583 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:46:27 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ye0-f169.google.com with SMTP id l13so157479yen.14 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:41:41 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/xb8Hoyfmoc56yfb59mv58kik7dAAlqrXl0ufZoEE5E=; b=EW68NhYFt6u427QxexoiF72Z87JtW4Ae0+V1dp1+CgZAlaFjb/olXewHnfBAscxzHq P5UiqdEgPRCVaGeDZl5sTuPFPmmmQAbw+hpfbELRsni4UTz5RPWIGtG1908QyWBTBFV4 ROSS9DM3A4tA8/4T0bIhe8/4ppcgnpcOrAdqJ+E7WxVEcHaao3V4v6EWpXeuVw/1+I2L Acp12gGSDRREQ60W6yWPyi0wlX981dFheYIrZbNd2red+ZgqALmueGxJsUiDdhstnpfC lY47x25pB/vSPQV1Ajox2JbVHCqbx7zIlbjjEjAKRA+sSUy/RDFvWkEWTycPlnrOaQPE xlJA== t52mr3077372yhe.61.1359495701658; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:41:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k24sm15282087yhd.5.2013.01.29.13.41.40 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:41:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:41:34 -0800 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107FD2B.3000601@dinospider.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/29/2013 8:47 AM, Mike Rambour wrote: > I firmly believe life is too short to not drive the car you want, I > get 14MPG when I am lucky and if I didn't need to hear that 3.6l V8 > screaming at 8,000RPM inches behind me, I might get better mileage but > I can't stop listening to it. When my friend drives with me, we get > to work with huge smiles and start off the workday with a smile, no > matter how bad a day I had at work, just walking out to the parking > lot and seeing my car lifts my spirits, fire it up and my smile is back. You know...I have to agree with this too. I somewhat reluctantly bought a CTS-V to replace my totaled Jetta TDI. I wanted another one just like the Jetta but couldn't find it and bought the CTS-V almost on a whim. I'd always wanted one, but it never really seemed like a mature decision. I really kind of hate to admit this on an open forum, but I sometimes find myself revving the engine just to hear it after I start it. Like a five year-old. It's pretty lame. There might be occasional giggling, too. I also, uh, frequently take advantage of the engine and chassis to and from work, the grocery store, to pick up the kid...wherever. The only drawbacks are the abysmal gas mileage and the latent nagging fear that I had better keep a better eye out for police cruisers. You can get to 80 m.p.h. very, very easily and it won't feel like much at all. Um, not that I do that. Ever. But the car's a joy. I might still buy another really nice mileage car...but I don't think I'll be without a car like the CTS-V again. It's just too...fun...to give up. Scott _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 14:50:30 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BD7C427ED for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:50:30 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ye0-f171.google.com (mail-ye0-f171.google.com [209.85.213.171]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B775427AF for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:50:15 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ye0-f171.google.com with SMTP id m8so159878yen.2 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:45:30 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bzl/msToKluz7+7Rb76foxoy/lYF034cUUzMW8XuZoA=; b=kv0xptOrIKG+n0TN90yDOZN4I4lzz7LWCSjcB41eDDfBeBk5uBTtKWG//awVad+0hA E9WuxVvDFcl5JGa3wVu5T6PlXFlQ65icDlrKY3yS3c+rSpt4Hlv7+7YBwdo8FhaxFHfP uKKBzsbVM9/Ore36dRjqoS1oz4VoyPazAwja9Y/pXYZ1A1+WK8kXovpzv0IIsdALkvYY 1g8CFGLr/XyaD91KWpo0tz3HC6ZKWA/8rNQGsOO2/RXsEggVIuO5rCrLkmghLQcvk5+/ D84z35QNOloUUdPmFvjvh4bgteTfjub+pC1B6gItHymW4zMUcOXVQhO4pR3aL85HVJU/ odrA== b67mr261032yhf.126.1359495930158; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:45:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j1sm4732822yhn.3.2013.01.29.13.45.29 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:45:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:45:23 -0800 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/29/2013 8:56 AM, John Miller wrote: > b) The material quality is nowhere near what it was twenty years ago > (you have to shop in the Lexus store to get material quality > comparable to what was the norm in Toyota-label products in the early > '90s) I don't know if I'd agree with that completely. We had a '93 Camry. It almost made non-Toyota people out of us. I'd say the current ones seem to be at least as good as that car. Then again, I no longer have a Toyota, I just get them as rentals. Maybe they don't hold up anymore. Our '83 Corolla, on the other hand, well, I'm still looking for one of those. Really. If anyone sees an '83 Corolla SR-5, email me. Scott _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 14:56:27 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA6A427C9 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:56:27 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ye0-f175.google.com (mail-ye0-f175.google.com [209.85.213.175]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA81425A4 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:56:22 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ye0-f175.google.com with SMTP id q7so158834yen.34 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:51:36 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Jp106tcEqXujss9uDjZ20WDCZmhxmA/hfX3/e0S02ME=; b=HwNBFcU8WUDdYgohFM9xkbYHk0n0tcZTd8HlpDHRG2AE13xycRh+ujoI+p3mUfFODy dkt2eodUwtzpY6RiuSg6cbmhX8E3CU9+wlTkdNWKPyjIyfg5r2jP9OIqALdAZPWTkB4x bvd+rpMuszF9Y95D6MrlQ0LOJ7lVbM0x70mFYsWCQmAtgEcYAcI7XeVZJ0q88JKIMR2k UvyFUEn2LqNou6z8M9C8UerXVpfztDhCo9jA6vnnvoT1EY/Z7GkS/YpI1FzxGDsTMKiI 9mJHNQJOcju+v92TJeVFeDX67kmdl5qzBP1tHF9qQTmiDLGuGENEIjvaS19LIimOzY53 3nDA== v56mr3117555yhh.52.1359496296101; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:51:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j1sm4757793yhn.3.2013.01.29.13.51.35 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:51:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:51:28 -0800 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <962642674.189668.1359484266148.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/29/2013 10:31 AM, pethier@comcast.net wrote: > The important factor here is how you are going to drive a car. If you spend a lot of time on the freeway in normal traffic, the hybrid is a waste of money. Any cheap econobox is gong to do better than hybrids in overall costs. > > If you spend all your time in short trips around town and sitting in traffic-jams in nice weather, the hybrid is the way to go. A plug-in hybrid even better. That's what I meant to say with my original post. Phil can just post for me from now on. My commute at the time was two miles of neighborhoods, five miles on the interstate, then a hundred yards to the office. That's the sort of environment where a Pruis wouldn't beat a non-hybrid. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 15:05:19 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA23427E2 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:05:19 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-yh0-f41.google.com (mail-yh0-f41.google.com [209.85.213.41]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17028425A4 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:04:07 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-yh0-f41.google.com with SMTP id 47so158694yhr.14 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:59:21 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9KBLkj8p9d2axsxZgVeIynGhvphPLq/4Mj0UrVuV+3s=; b=BWAbV1pnwpma8gFB7z/ApMGmWNcHtvCb6NHjGAL22wMUTnwvKoEsCq+Vu4EUv85Xun 0dul2rPhmJgLt2Un6C12rIFCweGMbDMZm084ykxBgyWDrEodF/CCosQ/Jp2DV7XU9uVF NPdYOVmk0oClbL9Z3Q57+XwYDgJozB1EhqQiByWHL+HmFsFsXVOSCztM9DkZKKNH4mKD aKJyIfQ5EBcBVzpQH9b7oSRwvy/SZ8uSIXDYBbSL517Ftzf03vXI7Tb/Gexupex8AKm8 NrHNE8sSdKwwXQOrdypAZ+qW/051k4qBtsAR35YcJBujXw9MDYuL+Zy3buE6yLxEx0IV IRIA== a40mr3217279yhk.9.1359496761776; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t2sm13196961anj.3.2013.01.29.13.59.20 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:59:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:59:14 -0800 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> <00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/29/2013 10:13 AM, Mullen wrote: > Try one of the Hyundai's you will be surprised at the quality - they are > real cars, even though they are cheaper. > For a while I was getting a lot of 2009-and-later Sonatas from Avis. They are REALLY nice cars. I am surprised each time. I far prefer them to Camrys. Just nicer to drive, nicer interior, better looking, everything. The only thing that kept me away from them when I went shopping was an ex-girlfriend's '90-something Excel. That car was worse than a Yugo. Yes, it's been twenty years. If I have to go car shopping again, I'll probably stop at the Hyundai dealer. Especially now that they've got a 400 h.p. V-8 (or something like that I saw in a car magazine recently). If Ford would kindly drop an Ecoboost V-8 in a Taurus, give it rear-wheel drive and roll out the new S.H.O., I'd be there already. The new Tauruses are really nice too. I can remember my older relatives insisting they'd NEVER buy a Honda or Toyota because 'the Japanese built garbage'. I think the Koreans were just a few decades behind them. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 15:06:59 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BD56427E1 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:06:59 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-gg0-f170.google.com (mail-gg0-f170.google.com [209.85.161.170]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08118425A4 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:06:53 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-gg0-f170.google.com with SMTP id k4so160455ggn.29 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:02:04 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kkRZXJZO8+zLCzck26H0Xec/3uU3rElwz0QR1U1f/V4=; b=nHzqvzwOeLfjniyOtQ0jFZSzyJoCnUv6ko0qyof5lXV0iMQM9lBa8L/84Q3LZxpgNL utVdr73hYnlUVYNbEG/i/dZx+U3AkLqXhYr9CJp33C2fZGxmxC9zfFVWx3fC833s6U73 9+ot1v+cn4MVGL+yOMvE80ZFHoPPYwVcoJXXCs+kKx2FoBCNwjmvBqOE0AOVceAYpR0+ 1zYvJeqBk0bkOD8Ntl7i2MDT4l6KlKPplj5Tnu9XmZ4B1IBD9cJ3fBxgcng+WAFFqf9D kpc9vpWO0239Dp2MfN+eHvDyUa+Gd4FfCuqPvw7osHAXfs65n9QTQS9R3isTw3fIzEb3 XvQA== u73mr3033038yhh.108.1359496924823; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k24sm15376523yhd.5.2013.01.29.14.02.03 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:02:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:01:57 -0800 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> <510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/29/2013 10:12 AM, Mike Rambour wrote: > can we keep the my dick is bigger than your dick discussion out of > the hybrid discussion ? > > cuz if not, this is the internet and you will lose to me anyway. I'll admit it, I laughed. :-) > When my car was in the shop for its annual maintenance and new front > ball joints, they gave me a Porsche Panamera Hybrid to drive for the week "Porsche hybrid" is sacrilege to even utter. The horror. Someone somewhere ought to be smacked around for that. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 15:20:38 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80901425A6 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:20:38 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA2040322 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:14:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from Steve-PC.optonline.net (ool-457e690f.dyn.optonline.net [69.126.105.15]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPA id <0MHE00KS5QVYSTC0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:09:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:08:27 -0500 From: Steven Trovato To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> <510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net My first thought was wow, it takes a week to do maintenance and ball joints? My second thought was wow, you get a Porsche as a loaner? I guess I live in a different universe. -Steve Trovato strovato@optonline.net At 01:12 PM 1/29/2013, Mike Rambour wrote: > When my car was in the shop for its annual maintenance and new > front ball joints, they gave me a Porsche Panamera Hybrid to drive > for the week, it was a nice car but still not fun to drive. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 15:42:04 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C06FF427AE for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:42:04 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtprelay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0103.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.103]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24CE42583 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:41:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from filter.hostedemail.com (ff-bigip1 [10.5.19.254]) by smtprelay08.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8B758234281 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:37:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.109] (host216-187.lsdepts.ucsb.edu [128.111.216.187]) (Authenticated sender: mikey@rambour.com) by omf03.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:37:10 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:37:10 -0800 From: Mike Rambour User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120827 Thunderbird/15.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> <510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com> <0MHE00KS7QVYSTC0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I am sure it did not take a week but my dealer is 110 miles away, so I dropped off my car on Saturday and picked it up next Saturday. And, the Porsche was a 2012 model with 718 miles on it when I took it and the window sticker in the glovebox said $122k MSRP, I WAS living in a different universe that entire week. They have 5 of them for loaners, 3 hybrids, 2 non hybrids, my wife chose it based on color nothing else. mike On 01/29/2013 02:08 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: > My first thought was wow, it takes a week to do maintenance and ball > joints? My second thought was wow, you get a Porsche as a loaner? I > guess I live in a different universe. > > -Steve Trovato > strovato@optonline.net > > At 01:12 PM 1/29/2013, Mike Rambour wrote: >> When my car was in the shop for its annual maintenance and new front >> ball joints, they gave me a Porsche Panamera Hybrid to drive for the >> week, it was a nice car but still not fun to drive. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lists@dinospider.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 15:51:52 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73B2427EC for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:51:52 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2D51425A1 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:47:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:42:47 -0800 id 000000000028001B.0000000051085067.00006812 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:42:16 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> <510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com> <0MHE00KS7QVYSTC0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <51084F16.8090302@dinospider.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > And, the Porsche was a 2012 model with 718 miles on it when I took it > and the window sticker in the glovebox said $122k MSRP, I WAS living in > a different universe that entire week. They have 5 of them for loaners, > 3 hybrids, 2 non hybrids, my wife chose it based on color nothing else. Did you evaluate how many sacks of concrete or fertilizer you can get into a Panamera? It is, after all, a hatchback...which is at least something they got right in the design of that car. We've got a bunch of Tesla Model S running around here, and every time I look at it I think "man, what was Porsche thinking with the Panamera?" Tesla's gonna sell a bunch of those things on looks alone. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 16:23:36 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4B87427E8 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:23:36 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta41.charter.net (mta41.charter.net [216.33.127.83]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B767406B4 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:23:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from imp10 ([10.20.200.15]) by mta41.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.02 201-2260-151-103-20110920) with ESMTP id <20130129231842.SXOX10143.mta41.charter.net@imp10>; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:18:42 -0500 Received: from wt05 ([209.225.8.45]) by imp10 with smtp.charter.net id tzJi1k00f0yHwtd05zJi46; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:18:42 -0500 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:17 a=cxKuJJEeAZ8A:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=Y9zj3w3WI_gA:10 a=xRfjoxBpAAAA:8 a=zOoktvdPAAAA:8 a=5z4IWV1PAAAA:8 a=8ryX3I8ALqBMJQtG_a4A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=J0aUVQLP0FIA:10 a=zjPD5aCGmwEA:10 a=m3MdUl94G8cA:10 a=bgAgzZxQv2QA:10 a=qj_dfa2y7w0A:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=f4ynmlXIY26FHqbQiKh3Jw==:117 Received: from [96.42.24.160] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:18:42 -0500 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:18:42 -0500 (EST) From: Tim To: Mike Rambour User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net A $112K LOANER vehicle? holllyy crap and WTF? On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Mike Rambour wrote: > I am sure it did not take a week but my dealer is 110 miles away, so I > dropped off my car on Saturday and picked it up next Saturday. > > And, the Porsche was a 2012 model with 718 miles on it when I took it > and the window sticker in the glovebox said $122k MSRP, I WAS living > in a different universe that entire week. They have 5 of them for > loaners, 3 hybrids, 2 non hybrids, my wife chose it based on color > nothing else. > > mike > > On 01/29/2013 02:08 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: >> My first thought was wow, it takes a week to do maintenance and ball >> joints? My second thought was wow, you get a Porsche as a loaner? I >> guess I live in a different universe. >> >> -Steve Trovato >> strovato@optonline.net >> >> At 01:12 PM 1/29/2013, Mike Rambour wrote: >>> When my car was in the shop for its annual maintenance and new >>> front ball joints, they gave me a Porsche Panamera Hybrid to drive >>> for the week, it was a nice car but still not fun to drive. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk@autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lists@dinospider.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland@charter.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 16:37:34 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21E32427FE for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:37:34 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901734044C for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:32:26 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:15:21 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 01/29/2013 18:15:23, Serialize complete at 01/29/2013 18:15:23 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net OK, first, I want to go on record saying that hybrids are the worst of two worlds. They are not an answer and they are only a knee-jerk reaction to high fuel prices. I had a 1991 Mercedes 190D that got 40MPG. That's right, in the 90's I was getting in the 40's. Then, Americans suddenly decided that they needed their heads thrown back in the seats and the US Diesel car was dead. That car was a DREAM to drive. It was smooth as warm butter. It got to 100mph and you would never feel it. It was a daily driver, but wouldn't be out of place at a super fancy restaurant or wedding. The only problem was that it had abysmal 0-60 times (I used to measure it with a calendar!) 8>) With those two things said, I also want to chime in with 'total cost' calculations. First, I need a work truck, so I had the 190D and a work truck. It was a great combo, but when you factor in the dual maintenance costs, dual insurance / registration costs, double parking spaces (I garage keep everything) etc, there was no savings with the high milage 40MPG over a since 18MPG truck. I just bought a Envoy XUV and it's got the smile factor for sure. It has a HUGE fuel tank, so I fill up about the same amount to times, but with much more fuel. (Note, I drive VERY fast, 80MPH is normal.) so I only get about 15MPG. When I was driving my last truck (2001 Ford Explorer) reasonably, I was getting almost 18-20MPG (mostly highway.) So, if you are curious about fuel costs and savings, here is a quick comparison tool I whipped up years ago when I was having a discussion with a fellow Soldier about the actually savings over a year based on gas prices... here is the link... (Which I just noticed only works with IE and not Chome (which I'll fix later)) http://www.megageek.com/gas/Page1.htm You'll be surprised that it's not much difference. BTW, the Ford Explorer is up for sale on ebay right now. There is nothing wrong with it (less the minor things listed in the listing.) If you want a $X$ for less than $2500, here is your chance... 8>) >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2001-Ford-Explorer-XLT-Sport-Utility-4-Door-4-0L-DRIVE-MOON-/271145902926?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3f218e234e< It's item # 271145902926 if the link doesn't work... Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 16:53:59 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211A6427EC for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:53:59 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vc0-f177.google.com (mail-vc0-f177.google.com [209.85.220.177]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11852427B2 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:53:11 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vc0-f177.google.com with SMTP id m18so669995vcm.36 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:48:25 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=C4+J30aTHaf8dzOJspHN0dXEGwznDde19+DhU0JQwk0=; b=h2ROYO6ml/lHovaganxotuQNOPLHCdWoJMnDv0tHASzqxT2jcbCS+LB8+nx1tk4ORq 82ugCvTUZX959W/qa1Wzpr3NKULfV3Baq8HfmmhSgkbtUDEu1RQwGd7YAMBV4PGklWNx I3k0MC1uePIXB7z+Jv2EADjoH9thqyVWw+sYzcwZMPsUPgmTWmPy/dSfxytJzxuevTOY HACHbEIa5QCXvpR6c1I2nLV1RxhIgvqmhmxyp1x5YBXHZ+v/N0bMiVezLzNnK1WK6qiS LDRWSFnU107q2ew8f4JDfEy6v9iXZOCI7cN8CPVRx/dd/HNQ7fBNBb+WKntVQ6fpyNOv G/ig== x3mr2669295vdv.80.1359503305182; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:48:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.233.105 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:48:25 -0800 (PST) References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> <510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com> <51087105.4000502@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:48:25 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: Scott , Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Worse than "Porsche SUV"? Doug On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Scott wrote: > > "Porsche hybrid" is sacrilege to even utter. The horror. > > Someone somewhere ought to be smacked around for that. > > ______________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 16:54:36 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF73427F7 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:54:36 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.196]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 423C840322 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:54:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from Steve-PC.optonline.net (ool-457e690f.dyn.optonline.net [69.126.105.15]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPA id <0MHE00LDWVIQBZL0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:49:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:48:29 -0500 From: Steven Trovato To: eric@megageek.com, shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net References: <51086E90.1050402@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net You are a marketing genius! You make incredibly high mileage sound like a feature! I also notice the big red NO RESERVE at the top of the text. But then it says "reserve not met" up by the bid. Seriously though, it looks like a very nice truck, and it should be a great buy for the right person. -Steve Trovato strovato@optonline.net At 06:15 PM 1/29/2013, eric@megageek.com wrote: >BTW, the Ford Explorer is up for sale on ebay right now. There is nothing >wrong with it (less the minor things listed in the listing.) If you want >a $X$ for less than $2500, here is your chance... 8>) > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2001-Ford-Explorer-XLT-Sport-Utility > -4-Door-4-0L-DRIVE-MOON-/271145902926?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3f218e234e< _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 17:08:36 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0271042805 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:08:36 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ye0-f173.google.com (mail-ye0-f173.google.com [209.85.213.173]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C3E742494 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:08:29 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ye0-f173.google.com with SMTP id l5so180664yen.4 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:03:43 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=1ocO5F+xh8dwEUZ3/FKetDJSkH+cL8kP/xGHTRFMlgg=; b=rGlRioKgAkhq7GhDL+8YdI9HTJaGMu4HiJlc9eR6Lx1EFuiQ0YTYV3kSjTtAmNabvm vo23SqIkWCaYWSJd9KkqMruUweD1cQLJ12aq1d0IAEOFfqenaomncYaHjPvkzPBiXdbQ hlx1meG5eSlorm6TTuN3FPmgl2tCVLYRUlnci4Rnv/le5TJxTsdSM0QhfHH5QaO6rvdJ JWy6QKaOZUEWfltWuLCEk0Y1/JOIxnh95YQBKb55eVo1DPeOgHH+NPOPSLWH6cSdW5ni JqmZ2V7KzTknf5+Sl0pcZKNoayXfY9b2jlf8Oes6KeaDOmj1NmMRyXL4yIdSixaj4vP/ aigg== g39mr968306ann.72.1359504223500; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:03:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s3sm15914622yhm.10.2013.01.29.16.03.42 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:03:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:03:35 -0800 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: Doug Braun References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> <510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com> <51087105.4000502@gmail.com> Cc: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net That's like 1(a) and 1(b) of "things someone can get sent to hell for". :-) On 1/29/2013 3:48 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > Worse than "Porsche SUV"? > > Doug > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Scott > > "Porsche hybrid" is sacrilege to even utter. The horror. > > Someone somewhere ought to be smacked around for that. > > ______________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 17:14:03 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 450EE42494 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:14:03 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtprelay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0098.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.98]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70CA04069D for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:13:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from filter.hostedemail.com (ff-bigip1 [10.5.19.254]) by smtprelay06.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A0EAB32ADC1 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 00:09:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.109] (host216-187.lsdepts.ucsb.edu [128.111.216.187]) (Authenticated sender: mikey@rambour.com) by omf01.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 00:09:08 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:09:08 -0800 From: Mike Rambour User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120827 Thunderbird/15.0 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> <510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com> <51087105.4000502@gmail.com> <51088D87.3010506@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Hey, it was a nice car for some soccer mom that does not want to think while she drives. My wife even said there was only 2 things wrong with it. 1. the price was about $90k too high 2. the name plate on the front said Porsche but other than that, it was a nice car, it did its loaner duty very well. mike On 01/29/2013 07:03 PM, Scott wrote: > That's like 1(a) and 1(b) of "things someone can get sent to hell for". :-) > > On 1/29/2013 3:48 PM, Doug Braun wrote: >> Worse than "Porsche SUV"? >> >> Doug >> >> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Scott > >> >> "Porsche hybrid" is sacrilege to even utter. The horror. >> >> Someone somewhere ought to be smacked around for that. >> >> ______________ > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lists@dinospider.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 17:23:32 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1694280C for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:23:32 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from dogbert2.mail.megageek.com (nj-69-34-94-16.sta.embarqhsd.net [69.34.94.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C8F1427B6 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:16:22 -0700 (MST) To: shop-talk@Autox.Team.Net From: eric@megageek.com Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:59:19 -0500 7.0.1|January 17, 2006) at 01/29/2013 18:59:19, Serialize complete at 01/29/2013 18:59:19 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net OPPS, I forgot that I added a reserve! Thanks for pointing it out. I fixed it now. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson You are a marketing genius! You make incredibly high mileage sound like a feature! I also notice the big red NO RESERVE at the top of the text. But then it says "reserve not met" up by the bid. Seriously though, it looks like a very nice truck, and it should be a great buy for the right person. -Steve Trovato strovato@optonline.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 17:23:54 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C000A42802 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:23:54 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-lb0-f179.google.com (mail-lb0-f179.google.com [209.85.217.179]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B130C427B6 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:18:29 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-lb0-f179.google.com with SMTP id j14so1469180lbo.10 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:13:42 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=h/pFfm/gPubknQgU0OPS/qEllGlQJi2GTZJLqRUk/pU=; b=YWEUPVSkHwAdJ85m4wUMzF+1Toxxxum97ZFKXcd/NIOkgJ0Ah9Z+CXkULFPnMUHNUv mT1ABNGTzpjl3Za2ty+CFWeY1mMX2+e0uU0Ub2IOLfDkC8jCqU4z7tlsmpCDuGLF/qYS 6HboCsJr89+DBmQdWrlQwiTDdRLSF+Ra21LfmLx1OPDGnKqrEPkjcpQKA9jVBihbrVk3 g2tAbw1C2C0NLmPHub7pcHPs7oYx9OYxi4ihGIK3QSJ4AV1RFyzD1dUEkWj5I3iFGs65 odMKfmVBCTQJa2rLfrzFlclElMqAW28GHhy4gbMVzpdrphn8CsxdK+LaSEAM9X+8L6o6 ulkA== f1mr1182210lbm.29.1359504822275; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:13:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.41.164 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:13:41 -0800 (PST) References: <51086E90.1050402@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:13:41 -0500 From: Jeff Scarbrough To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 6:15 PM, wrote: > I had a 1991 Mercedes 190D that got 40MPG. That's right, in the 90's I > was getting in the 40's. In 1978 I worked for a VW dealer. We had diesel Rabbits that always got mid-40s. And lasted 500 kilomiles. Nothing new under the sun, except cars have had to get heavier. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 17:24:47 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B14D42833 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:24:47 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com (mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com [209.235.152.148]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 091E0427B6 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:23:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from EricJRussellPC (99-194-27-8.dyn.centurytel.net [99.194.27.8]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id r0U0IMrE028219 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 00:18:23 GMT From: "Eric J Russell" To: References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net><5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com><5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com><5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com><51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com><510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com><0MHE00KS7QVYSTC0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <51084F16.8090302@dinospider.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:15:43 -0500 a=P2oOn6vrs4wA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:17 a=4fmrQz1SAAAA:8 a=FKzjjPoZctwJ96SxmAYA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=eQcYxy5dT-UA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:117 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net From: "Mike Rambour" > my wife chose it based on color nothing else. http://www.funny-page.net/detail-699.html Eric Russell Mebane, NC _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 18:10:00 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB8B44283E for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:09:59 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF8040E31 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:02:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta20.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.87]) by qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id tq3A1k0041smiN4A10xyM4; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 00:57:58 +0000 Received: from sz0220.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.138]) by omta20.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id u0xy1k00C2yr1eL8g0xy2n; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 00:57:58 +0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 00:57:58 +0000 (UTC) From: pethier@comcast.net To: Scott s=q20121106; t=1359507478; bh=YU97GVQezr6QO6uzRcPLHzpWkjKGscKivHxZgkwPrno=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=L4fUUlMT8CUIXP/DrA2kuJhzKUV0/IfgSin+XVovTnq3J15Rg+8KWEzHQvI8iJoSn MJJcwPfhkvgogtdNLvm4CahVpjLIVqmZSOnVTBdCzZze2PzS1UFGkkgbFNdZu2LKk4 j/WxsJ60E/cs3vOsWJRawlwYHHtqXJqX6Bp8iWmWdacnP3hWoCCAORlfX4jfCHNf59 YQxUPs7XA9oC6Kld8hzshBfNiSj1QdojRrMhHjavwi/hmTxqTRbbkuM2l7wyo3bw+k ZU1XQDtHUOnjhZPfdmdnAyVg82PWGztOUPu/PlwxYqb1egFqjRlfEE6M79BIB6yv34 uLCVH/RTfMg2Q== Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > Phil can just post > for > me from now on. LOL! Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier@comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica http://www.mnautox.com http://www.mntriumphs.org _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 21:31:48 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23AC2427BE for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:31:48 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255EA42528 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:31:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:26:46 -0800 id 000000000028001E.000000005108A106.00000294 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:26:16 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> <00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net> <51087062.3020103@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > I can remember my older relatives insisting they'd NEVER buy a Honda or > Toyota because 'the Japanese built garbage'. I think the Koreans were > just a few decades behind them. In California Toyota took over the Chevrolet-position as the 'default car purchase of the car-ignorant' somewhere in the '80s. As far as I'm concerned Honda kinda elbowed them to second-banana a decade later and Toyota's never really caught up, though there's a fair bit to dislike about some of Honda's recent products as well. Honda went through a decade of even worse material quality than Toyota though they've mostly recovered from that, and the current Civic is too fat and too weird (and I think it's suffered in the marketplace for it.) But Honda usually manages to put a coat of polish on the driving behavior of their products that most other manufacturers can't manage. Even truly hideous, ugly Hondas and Acuras usually drive really well. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 21:45:30 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A2624285C for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:45:30 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-la0-f53.google.com (mail-la0-f53.google.com [209.85.215.53]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A3740E66 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:44:42 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-la0-f53.google.com with SMTP id fr10so789974lab.26 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:39:54 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=OxeO21p4B+aSMHD96YT8dhnPX07uxB9joT0sImwV7So=; b=c9wZLXQv1T4SwTJuedYLLN9TznhRE6fckkdTp2wpjiwONj97eXnyBZ4Yx3MrIh/0U6 9qKF4ewQDUM+GMjU1abqCmKUfloqSooPiJRtUQgzYdT6+GfFkf4M5BZoNVo3v8Ryw/MY Z2nyyHk1KPpxXQjhDXCyaAjh3WH3XdO6gR19JBxVlhAuK2X3LL2yMNQch7w02KBnkHWR eV2KKwpEf0aoSDTvQXbOla50NnyGVS8+Mfp5AZuR+vWcAfOuafYrpFewAOo969bURFsb cSRTMz8f4xpW9/FCiKTFyWZuvw9y7kK9kJfcxEB5/5ilHOwv3hoUPpRoIdKtrIUobGuj x+0Q== gq5mr3332323lab.5.1359520794223; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:39:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.20.66 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:39:54 -0800 (PST) References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> <00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net> <51087062.3020103@gmail.com> <5108A0E8.3000004@milleredp.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:39:54 -0800 From: Shannah Miller To: John Miller Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I got rid of my Acura TSX because I got really tired of the electrical problems. Having the stereo (radio or CD, didn't matter) cut out intermittently just added insult to injury. Acura replaced my navi system 3 times, to no avail. It still had problems. Shannah On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:26 PM, John Miller wrote: > I can remember my older relatives insisting they'd NEVER buy a Honda or >> Toyota because 'the Japanese built garbage'. I think the Koreans were >> just a few decades behind them. >> > > In California Toyota took over the Chevrolet-position as the 'default car > purchase of the car-ignorant' somewhere in the '80s. > > As far as I'm concerned Honda kinda elbowed them to second-banana a decade > later and Toyota's never really caught up, though there's a fair bit to > dislike about some of Honda's recent products as well. > > Honda went through a decade of even worse material quality than Toyota > though they've mostly recovered from that, and the current Civic is too fat > and too weird (and I think it's suffered in the marketplace for it.) > > But Honda usually manages to put a coat of polish on the driving behavior > of their products that most other manufacturers can't manage. Even truly > hideous, ugly Hondas and Acuras usually drive really well. > > John. > > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**options/shop-talk/** > shannahquilts@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 21:50:14 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED59427C0 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:50:14 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ye0-f182.google.com (mail-ye0-f182.google.com [209.85.213.182]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F6A40E66 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:50:07 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ye0-f182.google.com with SMTP id q5so202029yen.41 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:45:20 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=z70gmW2CWIy37FbdB6Mo7B5JyjqXEb4nsUmoi5EcoXs=; b=brc/Xg/h5mL8PfMOR45tMJP0189JvJrRz/PkacTe2cP9Ilv8y1+4sdJ6wTB9YO7FYQ LwrAVQ9JghW1GjfGNCHwxoe8ZNaJ8m5h4iQcbVnG2rHBdTix0MMaPy1FBugRMIEtZk1Q AlrCaMMVwosCtR20uYZIeJfTho9a7/uwa8dLPl0/KtoGhGwPsJwznIDSgeq8ZUcl2cwe qw6Ybxx4hhlsYdDhEtXXEQB6HtH5Wl57rcuDPrjpcdIYRGevMtSDjvZhJarX5YrjvfqS F3qeMdrRp6+nk88TCJAx3va50V8VZ78fcmHC/Drn4iZHx5KrDgg7fl4vgAankO9zFW2s GtDA== p11mr1242937ann.0.1359521120579; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t2sm224125anj.3.2013.01.29.20.45.19 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:45:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 23:45:10 -0800 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> <00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net> <51087062.3020103@gmail.com> <5108A0E8.3000004@milleredp.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net My mom and sister-in-law both had Acura TLs. Maybe the worst cabin wear I've seen in a car since...well, I can't remember when. The dash cracked, the trim wore through, all the surfaces besides the seats looked wretched less than a year in. Man that car wore bad. They have this fake aluminum trim that looked good for about a week. I spent the last year of that car's life trying to find the replacement trim parts because it looked so bad. Terrible gas mileage for its other factors. I was always surprised about that. For how fast it slurped petrochemicals, I would expect it to be A LOT faster. It wasn't a slug, but it never impressed me. And for as big as it was outside, it always felt cramped inside. On the other hand, I thought it looked great from the outside, and they definitely got the exhaust note right. But I won't be looking at any Acuras pretty much ever. Good-looking and -sounding car I thought. But I'd never buy or recommend one. On 1/29/2013 8:26 PM, John Miller wrote: > In California Toyota took over the Chevrolet-position as the 'default > car purchase of the car-ignorant' somewhere in the '80s. > > As far as I'm concerned Honda kinda elbowed them to second-banana a > decade later and Toyota's never really caught up, though there's a > fair bit to dislike about some of Honda's recent products as well. > > Honda went through a decade of even worse material quality than Toyota > though they've mostly recovered from that, and the current Civic is > too fat and too weird (and I think it's suffered in the marketplace > for it.) > > But Honda usually manages to put a coat of polish on the driving > behavior of their products that most other manufacturers can't manage. > Even truly hideous, ugly Hondas and Acuras usually drive really well. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 22:31:58 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C0642801 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:31:58 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F115040645 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:29:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:24:41 -0800 id 000000000028001E.000000005108AE99.0000080B Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:24:10 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> <00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net> <51087062.3020103@gmail.com> <5108A0E8.3000004@milleredp.com> <5108CF86.301@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > Maybe the worst cabin wear I've seen in a car since...well, I can't > remember when. The dash cracked, the trim wore through, all the surfaces > besides the seats looked wretched less than a year in. Man that car wore > bad. They have this fake aluminum trim that looked good for about a > week. I spent the last year of that car's life trying to find the > replacement trim parts because it looked so bad. The funny thing is...and I hate to put it this way...most of what we have to complain about 'Japanese' cars is a function of their now being built in the US (or at least North America) with parts from the same suppliers that serve the Detroit makes. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 22:46:44 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A15F7427BE for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:46:44 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F8B3425A1 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:40:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:35:31 -0800 id 000000000028001E.000000005108B123.000008FB Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:35:01 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] At the risk of bringing up something shop-related... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net ...having access to a Shopbot CNC router can be dangerous to one's sanity. First the (7yo) daughter suggests that, well, she'd like to do sleepovers but that really means she needs more room and a bunk bed might be a good idea. Mommy agrees so Daddy's sent off to make sawdust: http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/bunkbed.jpg Along the way, Daddy concludes that since he's already fallen off the deep end building a five-drawer chest he may as well do some cabinets to fill the grubbily underutilized space under his workbench: http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/shopcabs.jpg And, the old saying goes that things happen in threes, at least over the last week free stuff happened that way, first was a Systech network serial-port server from a friend cleaning out his shelves, then came the '86 Celica (turns out to need a fuel pump, so not truly free...) and today I picked up a clean but quite old 10x36 Logan lathe from a fellow local Lion who, after a couple hours of chat about his past career, turned out to have been (as nearly as I can peg it) my older (now-deceased) brother's junior high school metal shop teacher nearly fifty years ago. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 23:17:58 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 509D0426C3 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 23:17:58 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from out01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (out01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.226]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6BCB426C3 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 23:15:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay05.roch.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.168]) by out01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net with ESMTP; 30 Jan 2013 06:11:11 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (50-47-129-112.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net [50.47.129.112]) by relay05.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0A68D2F90C; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 06:11:08 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:11:22 -0800 From: Dave C User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: John Miller References: <5108B105.9090208@milleredp.com> Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] At the risk of bringing up something shop-related... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Nice work; now we need to see the Shopbot in action. I've been thinking about getting one for several years. The Logan should be a nice lathe; I had a 9" model that I used for a number of years before I sold it for a 12" Grizzly. Did you get the QC with it too? On 1/29/2013 9:35 PM, John Miller wrote: > ...having access to a Shopbot CNC router can be dangerous to one's > sanity. > > First the (7yo) daughter suggests that, well, she'd like to do > sleepovers but that really means she needs more room and a bunk bed > might be a good idea. Mommy agrees so Daddy's sent off to make sawdust: > > http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/bunkbed.jpg > > Along the way, Daddy concludes that since he's already fallen off the > deep end building a five-drawer chest he may as well do some cabinets > to fill the grubbily underutilized space under his workbench: > > http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/shopcabs.jpg > > And, the old saying goes that things happen in threes, at least over > the last week free stuff happened that way, first was a Systech > network serial-port server from a friend cleaning out his shelves, > then came the '86 Celica (turns out to need a fuel pump, so not truly > free...) and today I picked up a clean but quite old 10x36 Logan lathe > from a fellow local Lion who, after a couple hours of chat about his > past career, turned out to have been (as nearly as I can peg it) my > older (now-deceased) brother's junior high school metal shop teacher > nearly fifty years ago. > > John. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd@frontier.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Tue Jan 29 23:24:06 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9355E427E7 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 23:24:06 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-lb0-f179.google.com (mail-lb0-f179.google.com [209.85.217.179]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD25426C3 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 23:24:00 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-lb0-f179.google.com with SMTP id j14so1737818lbo.38 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:19:12 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=6mJZbjk8KQod7TbiHdN6vs3VbQJXdCOlSpujZn+LUrw=; b=H8skn3Usk/ClCZytmPkYKO63Em7f1X7D9TSubGGoHtjNJahYEtQ1ZMzSiG2Ve2hkwZ G3Z26jw34aAmmJp0Pz2OCgoEBC6kcIJOf5urelaGEdcgufARWPVODCffNyjkmO4CefdK 8FvbD1a1vF0RpVGrZWgYQzbB/eyFPUcs/Yn7CgwOlcqZePAsx5JiZg5D2Cge31/L4R5e CUVIoBr0V04dE03+vhTVa6cLeG3XcV6F1ctWTQWFvkKOpJrgyEZ12Uuafz95XssyyVmq 1Q/7/DP7YNlw/P+mClaF93xiRWBTyytDVWLKLdI+osA/jzWa4z3o5WcON1Ht31OhQLaq 3ijA== Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:19:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.20.66 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:19:12 -0800 (PST) References: <5108B105.9090208@milleredp.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:19:12 -0800 From: Shannah Miller To: John Miller Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] At the risk of bringing up something shop-related... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I love the bunk bed: that looks really nice! I can think of several projects I'd love to do on one of those. On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:35 PM, John Miller wrote: > ...having access to a Shopbot CNC router can be dangerous to one's sanity. > > First the (7yo) daughter suggests that, well, she'd like to do sleepovers > but that really means she needs more room and a bunk bed might be a good > idea. Mommy agrees so Daddy's sent off to make sawdust: > > http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/**image/misc/bunkbed.jpg > > Along the way, Daddy concludes that since he's already fallen off the deep > end building a five-drawer chest he may as well do some cabinets to fill > the grubbily underutilized space under his workbench: > > http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/**image/misc/shopcabs.jpg > > And, the old saying goes that things happen in threes, at least over the > last week free stuff happened that way, first was a Systech network > serial-port server from a friend cleaning out his shelves, then came the > '86 Celica (turns out to need a fuel pump, so not truly free...) and today > I picked up a clean but quite old 10x36 Logan lathe from a fellow local > Lion who, after a couple hours of chat about his past career, turned out to > have been (as nearly as I can peg it) my older (now-deceased) brother's > junior high school metal shop teacher nearly fifty years ago. > > John. > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**options/shop-talk/** > shannahquilts@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 30 01:36:52 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C04CD4283D for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 01:36:52 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from smtp003.apm-internet.net (smtp003.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.52]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F8D9427AD for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 01:35:10 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 50097 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2013 08:30:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.103?) (81.159.186.235) by smtp003.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 30 Jan 2013 08:30:20 -0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:30:20 +0000 From: nick brearley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <5108B105.9090208@milleredp.com> <5108B98A.9050006@frontier.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] At the risk of bringing up something shop-related... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Dave C wrote: > Nice work; now we need to see the Shopbot in action. I've been > thinking about getting one for several years. > > The Logan should be a nice lathe; I had a 9" model that I used for a > number of years before I sold it for a 12" Grizzly. Did you get the > QC with it too? I could learn to live with a setup like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMvy1WIiqMI Particularly like the joint welding at 0:17. Nick Brearley _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 30 05:17:28 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60DB1426C3 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 05:17:28 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-lb0-f169.google.com (mail-lb0-f169.google.com [209.85.217.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4DA42280 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 05:17:18 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-lb0-f169.google.com with SMTP id m4so2052986lbo.14 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 04:12:29 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=QJ7DpiyXb4aGLF1TychfXhX9M0d6gBVOoYeEQk0VQMk=; b=EUyCOyNd8osfXfNJdr7WGeLKHn3QGaBZppYnkFqxP4KyHFgNF+a+Mtn7tcphFwnk3o cI4qf2Ym/kGJ6tizFQlBXgwGyWYxlg79wu4kcE7U0bXgx5+27Pdn/pG7gX//BhXigUKV GRTRmoBs+EaTsWskehZkVXsOqJfNBV5bhhHjsBRrnHAizpzCVHljn2ON4JTKYqW5zee5 Epk5vqv40qZB5RrORHDqypKh3SQv7Pr7250ygTMIFkvtgBGCT8pn+d782pvXodKNzPkX URaQR4XqB0KOD5IKebuhR7gDQnms6EfMnZ1yQTLZ4RIFfWEfKhHWkNh539K3fwyGSTLr ugIA== q5mr1885243lbl.9.1359547472911; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 04:04:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.41.164 with HTTP; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 04:04:32 -0800 (PST) References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com> <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com> <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com> <51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com> <00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net> <51087062.3020103@gmail.com> <5108A0E8.3000004@milleredp.com> <5108CF86.301@gmail.com> <5108AE7A.9080802@milleredp.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 07:04:32 -0500 From: Jeff Scarbrough To: "shop-talk@autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:24 AM, John Miller wrote: > The funny thing is...and I hate to put it this way...most of what we have to > complain about 'Japanese' cars is a function of their now being built in the > US (or at least North America) with parts from the same suppliers that serve > the Detroit makes. I would wager that each part is spec'ed separately, and that there are different price points for each part and each end manufacturer. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 30 09:04:16 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4669A4286E for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 09:04:16 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm17.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm17.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.212.176]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 322FB424AB for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 09:04:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.214.32] by nm17.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jan 2013 15:59:17 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.206] by tm15.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jan 2013 15:59:17 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1015.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jan 2013 15:59:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 28332 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jan 2013 15:59:17 -0000 s=s1024; t=1359561557; bh=6MVxnOSbI5dn6ojPa9108EaEr0N1Ef9KbZVBn/zrdx0=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=nMmrfYsEBCqVw3dZrvhTDecYVBCIlqvrk+AvMmVvD/esgYOYIOcMmlh1W1kh4CAZyZ/so2F7FU4BPPyiI09ODEbBODQlBEZPISKBKBAmPFZyp+c8lnBUWNqD4UbBJCYNLAfM0UhaTigd+7aK69tSwdUQTPKxQeR0Qivs9zNEYno= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=i3mgFq9CsjQnlvu08SyNBQDdJNg0uZj8YsHJDTodJj+vcExmaPAc5Icu2WciENq+57uT/02pHaYK20dh510BI8FwBB6RyZPsv8jVKixg1tYNJCcgHogTDjlB9ZaQLA4985c8XSuavBtPwmJNfavvrU+DocyRFjP9+5cu03CVTlg= ; JohOOZCnfBp3YHjljO_VDMel_KaFaz17CKhKfX1B7uDEP6eImza3u6I9Wmqr huQWWvmc.dPfmxpERGx4RoxWAWumLBTjt9TmMMXdDI.kk2I4SggKvyipiGw9 LITBb4RfyTl218heuxCnywXmz7_mR5OACsDayhjt_NNhaO3sEdRBYMHj7lUl dOsIQhG7Y0yOjqXMobw04_nPtIWueL9CWpGn7HKdg7vXVJFOyli0aTbJzUjs soi_nQQAxfrff2fPIpqD7wK1hR1GLqAW6eRWFFD3_5DMRDwSoFI8s4CgdG0Z VEzi3GuNrXa21J7GD7G8ilY4Tlqhy1vMRsK437bH1l278rNGO74Z63KJ6F4a fnkp0J_dWBn_Z5OqEhbNi1JtPJPgXCgh17eqcDJA42delYlqJVh.qCHOjs6z 904nnZNR.z2qSiHc5UfCVtVzL_qC.tb6thRBmlRP76AYdvfOXqmLIntFuItp TMDLFB3XyKZq1j39.gjQnTHnyPxDryGPpSg-- Received: from [31.169.7.187] by web140703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 07:59:16 PST aGV5IGhhdmUgYSBsb29rIGh0dHA6Ly9iaXQubHkvV1FmWHBlCgpFZAEwAQEBAQ-- Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 07:59:16 -0800 (PST) From: Ed Van Scoy To: Shop Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop hi Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net hey have a look http://bit.ly/WQfXpe Ed _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 30 09:17:18 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FB1F424AB for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 09:17:18 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ea0-f176.google.com (mail-ea0-f176.google.com [209.85.215.176]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B280B4053F for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 09:10:52 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ea0-f176.google.com with SMTP id a13so756858eaa.7 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:06:02 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=vNKAXn6gpq2EASp61Fy90WPchiYRkmAkwnen4eXOyPE=; b=SMOecwKNq4E2ypByPBTnd3p3jsDrz6/HLFkxVAkLGZ8sDlK0Jnd9KV/EKKNPkM6KP5 NwfPvo31A/D1XUiBC62ECFfqzPoorYZDMnru7qmVJbvaaaPU1/PJ+zT0EdfU8LwfOPks g+zYOJKtTcM2AfM25o1zr8M3gd1bJPySnZGSnLbs8V8mdiICBRpZCJJ/OiGwK4LGbMBs 3aOsTO0my/OF9FLyS90k8+azjz1uL1VQrmDd+jrmiqbgn2OHr1QgN32xtGCTIgkLo2J9 G25JsnpSBiN0C19nBg2tovL/3i4OPQnyECuLtkrf4mnpnaTiV8TlOoX3yPOKdfx8InE0 WWow== Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.180.7 with HTTP; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:06:01 -0800 (PST) References: <5108B105.9090208@milleredp.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:06:01 -0500 From: Mark Andy To: John Miller Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] At the risk of bringing up something shop-related... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Howdy, Wow! Great message. Impressed with the bunkbed in particular. that looks really well done. And you've got some kickass friends there... My free deals aren't anywhere near as good. :-) Mark On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:35 AM, John Miller wrote: > ...having access to a Shopbot CNC router can be dangerous to one's sanity. > > First the (7yo) daughter suggests that, well, she'd like to do sleepovers > but that really means she needs more room and a bunk bed might be a good > idea. Mommy agrees so Daddy's sent off to make sawdust: > > http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/bunkbed.jpg > > Along the way, Daddy concludes that since he's already fallen off the deep > end building a five-drawer chest he may as well do some cabinets to fill the > grubbily underutilized space under his workbench: > > http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/shopcabs.jpg > > And, the old saying goes that things happen in threes, at least over the > last week free stuff happened that way, first was a Systech network > serial-port server from a friend cleaning out his shelves, then came the '86 > Celica (turns out to need a fuel pump, so not truly free...) and today I > picked up a clean but quite old 10x36 Logan lathe from a fellow local Lion > who, after a couple hours of chat about his past career, turned out to have > been (as nearly as I can peg it) my older (now-deceased) brother's junior > high school metal shop teacher nearly fifty years ago. > > John. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka@maracing.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 30 12:22:48 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79FC6428B9 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:22:48 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail.milleredp.com (fw.milleredp.com [198.144.208.110]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23FA1427E7 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:16:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.1.2.130] ([::ffff:10.1.2.130]) (AUTH: PLAIN jem, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,CAMELLIA256-SHA) by mail.milleredp.com with ESMTPSA; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:11:58 -0800 id 000000000028001D.000000005109707E.00004982 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:11:27 -0800 From: John Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <5108B105.9090208@milleredp.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] At the risk of bringing up something shop-related... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/29/2013 10:19 PM, Shannah Miller wrote: > I love the bunk bed: that looks really nice! > > I can think of several projects I'd love to do > on one of those. This was the first time I'd ever done anything like that, it's mostly 3/4in plywood routed out on the Shopbot at Techshop in Menlo Park, glued and screwed together. As with any such first-project, I made some mistakes in all of this, the drawers came out just a little too wide and I had to break out the router and notch the bottoms of the sides for track clearance. I got some of the mounting holes in the bed frames in the wrong places, so if you look around the edges of the mattress from underneath you see a couple unused holes. And the finish could have come out a little smoother, really what it probably needed was going over the last coat with 2000-grit which I didn't do. Daughter got the full-extension Blum tracks ($24 a set) but Daddy's shop cabinets had to make do with the simpler 3/4-extension Blum side-mounts ($5 a set). I decided the upper side rail wasn't quite tall enough (industry standards say minimum 5in above the mattress and that's what I've got but it just doesn't feel like enough to me) and it needs another hand-hold for the ladder, so I made another upper rail to fit inside the existing one that'll extend the rail up another 2.5in and add a handle at the ladder end. And the steps in the plywood are just fine for the 7yo gymnast but Mommy and Daddy's feet are too tender so I've cut a set of smile-shaped pieces to add to the ladder to widen the steps. This is all sitting in the garage waiting for me to sand and finish it. If anyone wants the drawings I'll put the DXFs up, but you assume all risks for doing anything with using them... Once you figure out how to lay out rabbets and dadoes with the right depths for the material you're using then the whole world becomes a cabinet box, in addition to the shop cabinets (it's really nice to stick a 1/16in drill bit in the Shopbot and have it run around and punch all 18-24 drawer-track mounting holes in EXACTLY the right places) a 7'6" practice balance beam for the daughter ends up being a very long, narrow, shallow cabinet box wrapped in EPDM foam from McMaster-Carr and a ten-year-old marine vinyl leftover dragged out of the attic. Then there's the 8-cell storage cubby for daughter's homework which doesn't come out any cheaper to do yourself than buying something from Ikea but at least you can size it to fit exactly where you want it. Was moving my rearend collection (the assembled ones consisting of a Toyota T-code 6.7, a Mustang II Ford 8in and a '64 Galaxie Ford 9in, plus a 9in Versailles housing) around to be able to get the trailer out to drag home the lathe and the Eureka! bulb went on, so I now have a cutfile for a side piece for an axle-storage rack, one sheet of 3/4in BCX, two 8ft studs, and some paint and they'll be up and out of the way. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 30 18:05:56 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12ED1428EA for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 18:05:56 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from homiemail-a44.g.dreamhost.com (caibbdcaaaaf.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.5]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED52740EA3 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 18:05:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from homiemail-a44.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a44.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF1BA11805C for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 17:00:55 -0800 (PST) :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:message-id :to:mime-version; s=groupwbench.org; bh=++dakQAti2MMOvroFG/AuM+z dNk=; b=b4ejuAb7SVStdIu5cge2ZqtLw4ptkPoNIqNyNJnMuFHutUHBup13M2pJ Dq7D7kcACoWWI++BbRADQK3l22uok9hbLAYJg5GK0o6il0mtNJAIWrqXcpyrA0mM 9pRKEiD6KI8lB2gcIJ9Dz9MHy2P4wVVgExwfDXEu+nW3l9Xdxg0= Received: from [192.168.1.3] (pool-98-118-112-94.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [98.118.112.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jamesf@groupwbench.org) by homiemail-a44.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C2B2F118055 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 17:00:55 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Franklin Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 20:00:54 -0500 To: Shop Talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, instead of being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use laminate unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a forever counter, so it is a possibility. One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut out the sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain? Concrete is out, way too much work. There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block. Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)? thanks, _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 30 19:32:33 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D3D428E7 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 19:32:33 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB0C540EAB for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 19:32:24 -0700 (MST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=CI9JTiJqQ0j8JUkgcCLscE7e3MqA1lJC3yu1zIrSivb0CXdcjfExJ4rS3AgXp3bQ; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.129.27.38] (helo=[192.168.1.3]) by elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1U0jsC-00027a-Fs; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 21:27:32 -0500 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 18:27:10 -0800 From: Brian Kemp User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: Jim Franklin References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Jim - If your existing counters are structurally good, have you considered a granite overlay? See http://www.granitetransformations.com/ as a sample. I can't speak to this specific vender other than seeing their advertisements. They were a good bit cheaper than solid granite. We ended up moving instead and I definitely like my current granite counters over the laminate ones at the old house. If I were doing it my way and budget wasn't a big concern, I'd get engineered stone like Silestone or Ceaserstone for durability and not needing to be sealed like granite. You could also look at tile. Whatever you have, I would definitely have a good bead of kitchen silicone caulk around the sink/counter joint. My concern with the resin would be scratches and melting from hot stuff. Brian On 1/30/2013 5:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching > alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an > undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, instead of > being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use laminate > unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a > forever counter, so it is a possibility. > > One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut out the > sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain? > > Concrete is out, way too much work. > > There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block. > > Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)? > > thanks, > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 30 19:45:46 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA7E42907 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 19:45:46 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm10.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm10.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.137]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91D0F40532 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 19:45:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.44.107] by nm10.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Jan 2013 02:40:48 -0000 Received: from [67.195.14.108] by tm12.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Jan 2013 02:40:48 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp105.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Jan 2013 02:40:47 -0000 s=s1024; t=1359600047; bh=11W2zGyQ4hKQbtH/blNjVN5mnL5ozbRAXep07Kvmo7Y=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=6F/EmWwSvCKaYv19tCN/ifT2UOyyclR4pDmPJY4wOuHF/c3xeamvwp5S4QGGZgbIm38/QhG4WE2bWnpPBOjeA/smWp/44kpLiRiL74pdUq79U80tAmsrxnM/nib1QoM4UybMaiX70ICB6MvOM13NrQMhE1LF781vmSq43SpLong= RElRUvoiM7LXBQJ2lahnOk7eZhopkgSihNTs2Cfrxk8Fe232fVjLh2EIKWYn 5OAYTYLW1WlfYx1WDxwDdtPsQ6P1b6OX80zUinwUJGIA6jinnf7KiQJuOy4X gZgfKXLruVoLCJYfcDxcqJcUkoy_HRF4h6ylhMPAAU_v07mrqxqxWTgw5QRM 1706gNSNlzTPH9BhPB_D7feYFFmQcQ3vpsmTcV.GJKR5uymDCEF95QUFQXl. dCUJPzpapEvjgMBjplmKPyN_UVo_4QsxfsutwYC9EXvukZCzmUX1rS99R6uW ..K2fD9HCc5CD6PCoywzk.it92MVVPLd1LZdrHuGvH_yq3VtSB0ItICc460Y N9zm6kRWlS2uA1yXM.3nDICWbWjn9nyXRny6dK6Dsx4XfyMyP2j29iiKkvnZ gxINlJ4OYG2hvwjFY_0Oy1K84cTjN_uX8g_Wbe6nQjB9oL6n9LlWr.qMNfl9 aRIpvnmvBvS61fB9mdZ.AgupVS.wMchidTyh.Tw0k1vdP0BXB3mVOdiZAasB nmU0ZKiodTkl5t1p35m.z3YaVJuNGLt7sslksIsaO4v71ZiIX2ey5GUtqSU3 Wejy7kIxzIaoE5g-- Received: from [192.168.1.112] (james.f.juhas@69.183.26.14 with plain) by smtp105.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jan 2013 18:40:47 -0800 PST Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 21:41:20 -0500 From: Jim Juhas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: Brian Kemp References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> <5109D67E.8010003@earthlink.net> Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net We considered tile and that turned out to be our second choice once we thought about the issues of keeping the grout clean. We settled on granite and fortunately found a particular piece we liked that was near the bottom end of the price range. I suggest you check some installers who have the granite in stock so you can see and touch. You might be surprised as we were that it was not exorbitantly priced. On 1/30/2013 9:27 PM, Brian Kemp wrote: > Jim - If your existing counters are structurally good, have you > considered a granite overlay? See > http://www.granitetransformations.com/ as a sample. I can't speak to > this specific vender other than seeing their advertisements. They were > a good bit cheaper than solid granite. > > We ended up moving instead and I definitely like my current granite > counters over the laminate ones at the old house. If I were doing it > my way and budget wasn't a big concern, I'd get engineered stone like > Silestone or Ceaserstone for durability and not needing to be sealed > like granite. > > You could also look at tile. Whatever you have, I would definitely > have a good bead of kitchen silicone caulk around the sink/counter joint. > > My concern with the resin would be scratches and melting from hot stuff. > > Brian > > > On 1/30/2013 5:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: >> Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching >> alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an >> undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, >> instead of >> being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use >> laminate >> unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a >> forever counter, so it is a possibility. >> >> One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut >> out the >> sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain? >> >> Concrete is out, way too much work. >> >> There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block. >> >> Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)? >> >> thanks, >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk@autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13@earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/james.f.juhas@snet.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 30 21:53:21 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6128428E2 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 21:53:21 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from cartman.xxiii.com (cartman.xxiii.com [12.43.186.107]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B8840E83 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 21:53:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (host-173-246-195-102.morrisbb.com [173.246.195.102] (may be forged)) by cartman.xxiii.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0V4mGxS075870 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 23:48:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmc_st@xxiii.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 23:48:06 -0500 From: Wayne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> <5109D67E.8010003@earthlink.net> <5109D9D0.3040208@snet.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/30/2013 9:41 PM, Jim Juhas wrote: > We considered tile and that turned out to be our second choice once we > thought about the issues of keeping the grout clean. True That! I bought my place in 2001 with 4x4" tile countertops, and thought they looked cool and classy, and had previously seen them in some supposedly high end homes. They are a MAJOR PITA to clean. On the positive side: they are actually [usually] cheaper to install then laminate. That should tell you something. I am ready to tear the crap out and throw down cheap formica before I scrub grout again!!! > We settled on granite and fortunately found a particular piece we liked > that was near the bottom end of the price range. I suggest you check Granite is top of the price range, but can be stained and supposedly needs some kinda sealant on it periodically. I was gonna go with one of the synthetic or "quartz" intermediate ones, like Corian or Silstone, or -- can't remember all the brands now, but if you've been looking you know. Got divorced instead and had to pay to keep the place (fair deal, but still sux) so tile it is :( -wayne _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 30 22:07:34 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4106E4291B for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 22:07:34 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.243]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD03940E83 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 22:07:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta17.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.73]) by qmta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id uUnT1k0041afHeLADV2ZGk; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:02:33 +0000 Received: from sz0220.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.137]) by omta17.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id uV2Z1k0022xZMJ48dV2ZBG; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:02:33 +0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:02:32 +0000 (UTC) From: pethier@comcast.net To: Brian Kemp s=q20121106; t=1359608553; bh=9ILP+BFhFQeRagl8s+3cUc9VBm/ghh8s/uA6qTwFjm8=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=IliZM77tk3TE94pezulzAfSu/tW0OlkGNsr3hzNz5T9GQA3MNMbUjo0GdvO4D9XID unYls4Ayrs8Z+OOiw9XAsQt9mAp2fHz2gvzOkTbl+86XqH5qlH7ZdomOuHtNUVb0VE JK9qi5ryZ9pdxGM+wAuu0q1e2MwiAwI0xN+b6nTm2Z/gW3b7ZKtgXwBkNv5uQJVtmc dXkz5BtR77f6LvT9u3BH55OfJXqxoNyWS8Qf1dcAC42et46Vb26A1XWDAkxELQ/2c7 2Wj9D01Vgc5syhFI1itmwLuQ26vE5hlylA1rN2Dpx1KeIBrHe0IhXR8uWAT0dxECul FfC/BgQplCbHg== Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Kemp" > To: "Jim Franklin" > Cc: "Shop Talk List" > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:27:10 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? > Jim - If your existing counters are structurally good, have you > considered a granite overlay? See > http://www.granitetransformations.com/ as a sample. I can't speak to > this specific vender other than seeing their advertisements. They were > a > good bit cheaper than solid granite. We went with granitetransformations. B Grey material with sea-shells embedded. B They have a kind of 3D iridescence Sue likes. B Fits right over the old Formica and looks great. B No problems with heat, and we don't have to seal it. Phil Ethier _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 30 22:52:26 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47E7842909 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 22:52:26 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ye0-f170.google.com (mail-ye0-f170.google.com [209.85.213.170]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CFBA40EA0 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 22:47:50 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ye0-f170.google.com with SMTP id m12so484112yen.15 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 21:42:58 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=z16FBYdze/eMp01Z+etfcNVkc5V5qy4zsx+jWNKvnfQ=; b=nyfk3NpFRKNKXV2QV/V3hpR4JsfFvFxf660aiIdHqgo/0gRVQmFfHO/kQh6bbE7XqY yLAb/9FlK3vgTTbZVGUQDD5eEDDoF6OsDSfFkTOJJS/NG1012KH7gKitEHmJK64HeZtB y4w6P4x9ph1LIS9vrNHMm8UJYxDd4WNgL879JMTkCFmzFXSfP2HdiYoWmBf1Wq6zhzOZ 6hB6bIsyFgx2p0qZYJmCsre+4NkbKL1xKZN/wvsaCjJdklaOatbvJedZaeGwqvhtmR0d Fx4kIoo9FMtUOOdxJalJwSxuf4Ob/dVFc0qpd5VndhdWxqa62oCbbj8+o0yx2moE3RBL rydQ== q63mr8641802yhh.105.1359610978256; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 21:42:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w2sm6337998yhk.8.2013.01.30.21.42.57 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Jan 2013 21:42:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:42:56 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <2071278236.217903.1359608552991.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net What are the seams like, Phil? Does it look like a normal granite countertop, or is it more like those 'granite' counterpanes I see that are really floor tiles? My wife would like granite counters, but I've been lobbying for 4x4 tile on cost. If the granite transformations look like the traditional granite she wants, I'll cave. On 1/31/2013 12:02 AM, pethier@comcast.net wrote: > We went with granitetransformations. B Grey material with sea-shells > embedded. B They have a kind of 3D iridescence Sue likes. B Fits right > over the old Formica and looks great. B No problems with heat, and we > don't have to seal it. Phil Ethier _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wed Jan 30 23:10:03 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB39C428F9 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 23:10:03 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ia0-f174.google.com (mail-ia0-f174.google.com [209.85.210.174]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1282E428C5 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 23:09:56 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ia0-f174.google.com with SMTP id o25so3418974iad.5 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 22:05:04 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date :to; bh=oSNdS0AnisUcykWbUNkJCREkdVkix9YY6y0RcaOiqlg=; b=vzCCFbzOCGRc3rDQVO1qOMRnZixbMd8C4Dq3jbRJaLWliHMbclIF00xf3i+LN7s73K F98oLLnfeRAJuSwpVBACwf6Df5dKqyjc3mpdgUdCxkJGMol7biMPhVnwo8dRECrtQtAx QQVfMAwfgQH+Cx3FoOoMmywlQ1N4APGinm278Vx9WvinKLP3A+DAspjZM63myOC9FB8Z iUfvy14ABLbyRvxTV//qRcqtxbOZii2VhuQ2ynw2wZSPZvggkir4jsjNmegu4pOCp5xz wWP+uz/DkGhY6igTUKbKTPM2HdPhcJQfbjGpOgSqR+HCnSmm2VWFNWl60Dfz3Jkx0WXE 2l8g== Wed, 30 Jan 2013 22:05:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (216-80-25-248.c3-0.stk-ubr1.chi-stk.il.cable.rcn.com. [216.80.25.248]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bh3sm7310758igc.0.2013.01.30.22.05.01 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Jan 2013 22:05:02 -0800 (PST) References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> From: David Scheidt Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:05:00 -0600 To: Jim Franklin Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Jan 30, 2013, at 7:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > Still reeling from the price of > > Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)? > > Don't forget you can use more than one material. Bit of stone around the sink, bit of marble for a baking work area, laminate every where else, say. Also soap stone can be worked with pretty normal shop tools, so if you've got the time.... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 06:50:33 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C4C428FC for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 06:50:33 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from homiemail-a83.g.dreamhost.com (caibbdcaaaaf.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.5]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DB1940E3F for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 06:50:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from homiemail-a83.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a83.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3C05E063; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:45:27 -0800 (PST) :mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s= groupwbench.org; bh=rqmvh0281uFTxdSGzTP7+RjiSnE=; b=aiKrlnEOiHIy IrGMCRBeAvDHZMRg7+RH4bwmIXZKOa6po34lRRI2Bbv9hbpVj3EWI5c4EttxOtlH OhrwUOxcS2tn8TaL6JbLW93mWw+oLl2ymoTZjDB3+3FUD38+FmqJc+D8ZEvZVIft yuQ9BrDvFkLNuoNhrvnibN0mxaInUZY= Received: from [192.168.1.3] (pool-98-118-112-94.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [98.118.112.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jamesf@groupwbench.org) by homiemail-a83.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A3915E060; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:45:27 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Franklin Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:45:25 -0500 References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> <5109D67E.8010003@earthlink.net> To: Brian Kemp Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Jan 30, 2013, at 9:27 PM, Brian Kemp wrote: > Jim - If your existing counters are structurally good, This is a new install; old kitchen was gutted. > > You could also look at tile. Whatever you have, I would definitely have a good bead of kitchen silicone caulk around the sink/counter joint. My first choice actually was tile. Rectified porcelain is $5/sf and will allow 1/16" grout lines. There were 2 issues- corners/edges and making them look neat, which was solvable by Schluter products, but started approaching $1000 and a ton of work. And the other issue was the undermount sink and keeping the sharp inside corners of the counter clean where it'd rest on the much softer corners of the sink. Still an option, but if I can get a solid surface for $1500... (rapidly realizng this is unrealistic). 1 cm thick Porcelain "sheets" are becoming common in Europe to use for counters, but haven't made it here yet. They make 24" square tiles, but I need 24.5" for the wall counter and 25" for the island, and with the proper tools I could route a curve to match the radius of the sink corners. I'm guessing I need a wet saw of some type to do that... > > My concern with the resin would be scratches and melting from hot stuff. Yea, heat resistant to 355F, which isn't that hot, really. I'm not the type to dig out a trivet when I'm holding a hot pan, and I'm certainly not going to remember to do it beforehand :-) _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 06:59:27 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 723174292D for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 06:59:27 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from snt0-omc2-s11.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc2-s11.snt0.hotmail.com [65.55.90.86]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7410C400A4 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 06:59:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from SNT127-W34 ([65.55.90.72]) by snt0-omc2-s11.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:54:25 -0800 From: PJ McGarvey To: Shop Talk Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:54:25 -0500 References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>, <2EF90E32-6AAC-402D-BCE5-09C44CA7BFDF@gmail.com> FILETIME=[7B1F2110:01CDFFBA] Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I'll put my vote in for Quartz, specifically the new LG Viatera that Home Depot carries. Many attractive varieties not including what's in the store, super smooth surface, non-porous, anti-microbial, heat resistant... and there there were some promotions that really helped knock off hundreds of dollars from the new cabinets and countertops. There were two price points $44/sq. ft for ours, and ~$90/sq. ft. I think, so it can be somewhat affordable. We should be getting ours installed on Tuesday, though the wait has been longer than normal. > From: dmscheidt@gmail.com > Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:05:00 -0600 > To: jamesf@groupwbench.org > CC: shop-talk@autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? > > On Jan 30, 2013, at 7:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > > > Still reeling from the price of > > > > Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)? > > > > > > Don't forget you can use more than one material. Bit of stone around the sink, > bit of marble for a baking work area, laminate every where else, say. Also > soap stone can be worked with pretty normal shop tools, so if you've got the > time.... > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey@hotmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 08:08:20 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E07DE4291D for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:08:20 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from nm10.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm10.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.137]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1EC427F5 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:08:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from [98.139.44.104] by nm10.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Jan 2013 15:03:17 -0000 Received: from [67.195.14.110] by tm9.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Jan 2013 15:03:17 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp107.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Jan 2013 15:03:17 -0000 Y5MvkKlu2rEKz_Qg4D9Z3bCwXOy45pbcmCJxyCnrfXwO01AG1nIjS537Og_q 3V69qMXjnY71intLRTFkGfUNFJ6zZPtBFam_t6t1z8zw0tuN4rgxSgi.jkk7 0Y1SWUZMmcdFc2D3GFtEG7iC52IM7IoxJxHJTw8Lv_xFc22_DWW.2xpdZudK MeM78PVIXRoAfiRO7Ji8MHcDScdFcic5pNepykrmli5kL76bkwvlZ8fO1Tr9 KT1kdSFD.y_hnNXDBgs0cHNl_S1JHuPaKVaWxqpKMdI4tiHFl5S0RUtAkCJ3 rxfNiOWnLL80Ugo.t9MSUz0y8XUpgl30YlrPNtyK9cOg_tvs70uQQSsli1Sg 6GzqoT1Z72gsDYvkf4US2yQXxW9tzWvv1fpbgzjA5oGeF7qnn44x0vGPF.po .9CBAOr9ZYPlroh5avJCAXqJQH0vZ336OzxtBbgIZSaaykqnI Received: from KarlIntel (KVacek@24.14.131.73 with login) by smtp107.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Jan 2013 07:03:16 -0800 PST From: "Karl Vacek" To: "'Shop Talk'" References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>, <2EF90E32-6AAC-402D-BCE5-09C44CA7BFDF@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:03:17 -0600 Thread-Index: AQKZf8wNpNi400WtfspwDYe+HcBVtwIn1BM/AaisQLGWrfQIgA== Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Granite doesn't have to be either expensive or difficult to care for. It really depends on the specific granite you choose. We heard all the stuff about sealing and staining, and I didn't even like granite before we got it. We picked ours based on what we liked, after at least a year of looking, and it turned out to be an excellent choice as well as a great deal. First - sealing. That really applies most to marble, soapstone, and limestone - it's way overplayed by the purveyors of alternative products. Only some granite stains easily, and generally only the really light and porous types. And many grades are resin-impregnated for strength and stain resistance. We didn't see that fact played up anywhere, and I still don't. How often do you see stains on granite monuments, on granite pavement, etc. etc.? Some outdoor granite items that you see every day has been exposed for a hundred (or two) years with no staining. You can bet that few monuments or roads have ever been sealed. Of course nobody cooks in the cemetery, but the birds, plants, pollution, and weather have their way with outdoor granite every day. We chose Napoleon Gold, which is quite light-colored and looks very porous, but (ours at least) was resin-impregnated by the mill after being quarried and sawed into slabs, and it's quite impervious. In addition, the installer (an old friend) and I spent a couple of hours working sealer into the counters (puddles of sealer spread by our bare hands) immediately when he installed it - in 2005. We've never sealed it again and have never had a stain. I keep asking him if we need to seal it again, but he says no. We're not particularly fastidious. At all. Jill and the girls (me too) have left everything on the counter - tomato products, oily tomato-based sauces (which stain Tupperware immediately), red wine, Angostura bitters (that stuff stains EVERYTHING), you name it. No stains, even when we've found a spill that ran under something and was missed for days. We usually try to remember to put down a towel next to the cooktop when frying to keep hot grease spatters off it, but it's still had lots of hot grease on it over the past 8 years. Slight darkening from cooking oil is supposed to be fairly common with certain stones, but ours hasn't even done that. We routinely put hot pots and pans on it - enough that I worry about warping the pan sometimes. I wonder about doing that with the plastic-plus-quartz/granite/glass products like Cambria, Silestone, etc. They're stone/glass/etc. chips held together by polymer. Sounds like something that might be hurt by heat. Want to break up a frozen-solid bag of ice? Whack it on the granite counter top. Not going to hurt the granite. Cutting directly on the granite is rough on the knife but it's not going to scratch the granite one bit. Bakers like to roll out dough on granite (or marble). Makes a decent surface plate for precision measurements too, when Jill's not around... Uba Tuba (a really common and beautiful dark-green/black granite) can be under $25 per square foot installed. And try to stain dark green and black. Our granite guy friend now also offers really economical granite from China. Some of that is sub-$20 per square foot, installed. YMMV Karl _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 08:15:22 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D2E428E5 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:15:21 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-gh0-f179.google.com (mail-gh0-f179.google.com [209.85.160.179]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9351640E31 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:15:16 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-gh0-f179.google.com with SMTP id r14so602286ghr.38 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 07:10:22 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UeG4IVQOHXCL7OIbDC+N4xJbqY3B8Dgo8bcDZcjkqYQ=; b=g9E9K1rwZ0+06F0ssacVdqP7NMLsx4fYIrfJj8yJ3l0zkFZIGQXsYzyivo7UnM47gg +DDDxr6p26Bs609WhV4L14A8/Xz8xqArRSyrIjgwW35pDBWmwxIR0w6rt725tEj4AE63 9ZGyjIy0blv1tVc4Zotqx9p4lmcnYfIT3hB637PVx+nhX6n03Fi0Uh2djFcIxXBrxL0D FPuIgIsoGFpJsV8fgQxUhR5M2LLkbwX6I5SyTClljz0rRxFE1NlZR1MPnGAjIHsmz8KE X7m/XItHF1NkUuPzjvMO7sxTk/XJOnfv09yI1ofr0gJNk5XLm5CMLJ8F0Jklynq8uOnz oyDw== t46mr10650901yhk.4.1359645021851; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 07:10:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d30sm8210263yhc.4.2013.01.31.07.10.20 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Jan 2013 07:10:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:10:19 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>, <2EF90E32-6AAC-402D-BCE5-09C44CA7BFDF@gmail.com> <00c901cdffc4$1a3164d0$4e942e70$@Ameritech.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/31/2013 10:03 AM, Karl Vacek wrote: > Makes a decent > surface plate for precision measurements too, when Jill's not around... Heh. I mentioned that once a few years ago. I'm not to do that, ever, and she'll know if I do it. The really scary part of that was that I'm pretty sure she would know. I suppose I'm really married now. > Uba Tuba (a really common and beautiful dark-green/black granite) can be > under $25 per square foot installed. And try to stain dark green and black. > Our granite guy friend now also offers really economical granite from China. > Some of that is sub-$20 per square foot, installed. It's cheaper to ship granite over the Pacific than it is to use domestic stuff? That's impressive. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 08:53:30 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CFDB42914 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:53:30 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-vc0-f177.google.com (mail-vc0-f177.google.com [209.85.220.177]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09E2A424C0 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:50:42 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-vc0-f177.google.com with SMTP id m18so1843557vcm.36 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 07:45:48 -0800 (PST) d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=aRRyg/2eNBjJiHGiZhSlzxZMlOxRfgK2F/4OUE7QNr0=; b=YlN1ByvkwDX79FdJzSsVUAudiKX7kSdH5RLmqIBYSaeKUIFN8jgMsf6fPGqbE6fR6z 36W2CYk2UUoKJ8IUB0cEDH54rZaPY6DQpxVFIGuMuv8woUg+WnBySx26031aXVGiAP5H HnY+K1xsdngHRmGCDs46yJkdwqGYb4HHN7Fri19XUMnwrr0ssQoxcZ1Nxhjs9AbZBAjG 7PWaf+qHgb/CGop0noDysWOeowK7ZrJmB1DsbDdfaX2L0FtS72yqhGtx7boMbirgiJPJ o+hZ3WlhNKEXVQkqohTeBlFvcc1grPnsIWyarkQPJD37QyQRba7qH0NYlHzuqr8h7IF/ 5dkg== x3mr7273305vdv.80.1359647148102; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 07:45:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.233.105 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 07:45:47 -0800 (PST) References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> <2EF90E32-6AAC-402D-BCE5-09C44CA7BFDF@gmail.com> <00c901cdffc4$1a3164d0$4e942e70$@Ameritech.net> <510A895B.6090709@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:45:47 -0500 From: Doug Braun To: Scott Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net A lot of cemetery monuments are made in China, and the shop here just adds the lettering. Doug On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Scott wrote: > It's cheaper to ship granite over the Pacific than it is to use domestic > stuff? That's impressive. > > _ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 09:00:48 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53BEE4293A for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:00:48 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.32]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 616FA40442 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:00:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.43]) by qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ubUf1k0040vyq2s53fvojL; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:48 +0000 Received: from [192.168.82.100] ([71.235.119.87]) by omta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ufvn1k00d1tDsSn3Rfvovw; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:55:48 +0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:55:45 -0500 From: "Peter J. Thomas" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: Jim Franklin References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> s=q20121106; t=1359647748; bh=xd1dH7Y18/XHy1dxPBQ1qzkpmOKAoiu36jEGEX4vSEY=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=K2gR/DLLIj1/ND9hIzQc1RcQrIDljR84yEKp645ha0zV1sv8e4jc7ceEQdtEhz8+T W6GUln++CaYbt3oSVgnX9xJLPnA1HTTsVcGq6W5QRdOORThDonuU3FzwkhEvJ4fhEt TwClfY7c13YqJ3etBdBbmJk341Ak+y6atfsMjNNzD9ZeAe4yeKnoGwGomTYhKf48TB cXgDIYSEuXve79+amg2TzVxB77lSSX9Xbp50IOcXhWQBOv+xf48Ss1Hsk53gxzvsfA gXtjjNfHQ4cWaGrp/U7aVz/nfcNJR4VDKwSSZ+a/+WSE1yGle6s15imGyNpFZNnYda eoJ1rYzl/6jLA== Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/30/2013 8:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching > alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an > undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, instead of > being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use laminate > unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a > forever counter, so it is a possibility. > > One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut out the > sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain? > > Concrete is out, way too much work. > > There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block. > > Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)? > > thanks, Redid our counters with granite floor tiles. Was two decades ago when tiles were cheaper. We found a bargain on a nice tiles under 4$ a square foot. Prices are higher now but shopping around you might find some bargains. Put down 3/4 plywood and layer of cement board set in mortar. Bought a cheap tile saw (< $100) and ripped strips for the edge and laid the tiles on top. I used a narrow gap and grout that closely matched the tiles. Also deliberately choose a fine grain granite so the tiles would not stand out. Sealed there hasn't be much grout staining except around the coffee maker and bleach does a good cleaning that. A modest kitchen, about 22 linear feet including and island, was under $700. > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas@comcast.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 10:14:47 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B692442934 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:14:47 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plsmtpa09-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa09-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.237]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A0640E38 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:14:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from StevePC ([24.113.13.208]) by p3plsmtpa09-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with id uh9k1k0074VKuxU01h9kWi; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:09:44 -0700 From: "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA" To: , "Brian Kemp" References: <2071278236.217903.1359608552991.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:09:46 -0800 Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net We're just about to make the same decision (Granite Transformations). Personally, from an engineerbs perspective, Ibd prefer the removal and replacement approach but my wife is enthralled with the b1-day aspectb of the change plus webre going to be selling the house soon and I wonbt be living with the bcover-upb. Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA From: pethier@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:02 PM To: Brian Kemp Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Kemp" > To: "Jim Franklin" > Cc: "Shop Talk List" > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:27:10 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? > Jim - If your existing counters are structurally good, have you > considered a granite overlay? See > http://www.granitetransformations.com/ as a sample. I can't speak to > this specific vender other than seeing their advertisements. They were > a > good bit cheaper than solid granite. We went with granitetransformations. B Grey material with sea-shells embedded. B They have a kind of 3D iridescence Sue likes. B Fits right over the old Formica and looks great. B No problems with heat, and we don't have to seal it. Phil Ethier _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gsteve@hammatt.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6066 - Release Date: 01/29/13 _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 10:27:36 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D898C42939 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:27:36 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from itonami.pair.com (itonami.pair.com [209.68.2.178]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 3883140E38 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:24:50 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 37180 invoked by uid 3198); 31 Jan 2013 17:19:55 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 31 Jan 2013 17:19:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:19:55 -0500 (EST) From: David Hillman To: Scott References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>, <2EF90E32-6AAC-402D-BCE5-09C44CA7BFDF@gmail.com> <00c901cdffc4$1a3164d0$4e942e70$@Ameritech.net> <510A895B.6090709@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (BSF 1266 2009-07-14) Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On Thu, 31 Jan 2013, Scott wrote: > It's cheaper to ship granite over the Pacific than it is to use domestic > stuff? That's impressive. Virtually all granite slabs are imported, either from Italy, Brazil, China, Turkey, Norway, or one of a few other places. The only domestic I found was Dakota Mahogany, although I think there are a few others from the Dakotas as well. I found some that was quarried in Brazil, shipped to Italy for processing, and being sold in a warehouse here outside Chicago. And it wasn't particularly expensive. In fact, most of what is available around here is processed in Italy, regardless of where it was quarried. When you consider what is involved in extracting that stone from the earth, slicing it into 3cm slabs, finishing those, transporting it to the buyer's house, and then cutting and installing it... $30 to $50 per foot starts to sound amazingly cheap. -- David Hillman _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 10:43:39 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868284293F for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:43:39 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C39BC40E31 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:39:12 -0700 (MST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=teleport.com; b=oGTr+XMR/1sDqqIhIIEDJ+K0dH4+vBWN3BWmITKpSN6gDRv6lsWGI9ogtEu1UL7+; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [63.229.142.234] (helo=[192.168.0.183]) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1U0y1h-0000zd-EU for shop-talk@autox.team.net; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:34:17 -0500 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:34:14 -0800 From: Richard George User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> <510A9401.7080403@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net FWIW, if you wanted to go the granite tile route, you might want to consider watching at your local Habitat for Humanity restore - sometimes some fairly large quantities show up there, and its hard to beat the prices (around here I think its like $2/ ft^2 or less...) I recently rehabbed a condo and saved a couple of grand on materials going that route.. Best, rkg (Richard George) On 1/31/2013 7:55 AM, Peter J. Thomas wrote: > On 1/30/2013 8:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: >> Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching >> alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an >> undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, >> instead of >> being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use >> laminate >> unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a >> forever counter, so it is a possibility. >> >> One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut >> out the >> sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain? >> >> Concrete is out, way too much work. >> >> There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block. >> >> Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)? >> >> thanks, > > Redid our counters with granite floor tiles. Was two decades ago when > tiles were cheaper. We found a bargain on a nice tiles under 4$ a > square foot. Prices are higher now but shopping around you might find > some bargains. Put down 3/4 plywood and layer of cement board set in > mortar. Bought a cheap tile saw (< $100) and ripped strips for the > edge and laid the tiles on top. I used a narrow gap and grout that > closely matched the tiles. Also deliberately choose a fine grain > granite so the tiles would not stand out. Sealed there hasn't be much > grout staining except around the coffee maker and bleach does a good > cleaning that. A modest kitchen, about 22 linear feet including and > island, was under $700. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 11:12:46 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C735642944 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:12:46 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.227]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6044240436 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:09:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.11]) by qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id uf3R1k0090EPchoACi4WyB; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:04:30 +0000 Received: from sz0220.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.138]) by omta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ui4W1k00U2yr1eL8Mi4Wms; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:04:30 +0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:04:30 +0000 (UTC) From: pethier@comcast.net To: Scott s=q20121106; t=1359655470; bh=uM1dRApu0IAbwwOsniVvtZwLwpB4qagmTDCKNYAItec=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=teP4/7arcL99AH2meblNIJ+2Y66rxIQaYDy7xDwmU5d6CwDTy9AIZqvWYsC/KoqZC KzZ8ytNDp0HtEbRjUfOnjzJvvBglPgNWissga0CSOPFcS0G29k4/59toExGzdz/TNS PiD18kK/zJafBjzs0I2BthnyTLHESxHl+xUHHG8LufXbD0QWWCAZPxbH6QG5SR1jXW tJHwxbFqn16WkGxYLDirG0w0ePZu8u4RxnDVXYLzspK6qWyg00TslZrfiisu3EjN7H pzUfi/WWIBotrp0dwAs4ZKHmfmHJd2Z2vjIA2ZIiG35fJOHjAS2GPrvPgUHFppKaNf SLtpETkyz6qrg== Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott" > To: shop-talk@autox.team.net > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:42:56 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? > What are the seams like, Phil? What seams? I don't see any. I don't know how they did that. > Does it look like a normal granite > countertop, or is it more like those 'granite' counterpanes I see that > are really floor tiles? Not tiles. The material looks seamless including all the way around the two 45s we have for the big bevel at the front edge. > My wife would like granite counters, but I've > been lobbying for 4x4 tile on cost. If the granite transformations > look > like the traditional granite she wants, Take her to their showroom. I think she will be impressed. Sue originally wanted granite look (we have a wheeled island from Fleet Farm [really!] with a slab of granite on top), and the granitetranformations looked good, but when she saw the sea-shells she had to have them. > I'll cave. I didn't care. She doesn't get to design my shop, so she can do what she wants with her kitchen. > On 1/31/2013 12:02 AM, pethier@comcast.net wrote: > > We went with granitetransformations. Grey material with sea-shells > > embedded. They have a kind of 3D iridescence Sue likes. Fits > > right > > over the old Formica and looks great. No problems with heat, and > > we > > don't have to seal it. Phil Ethier _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 11:13:08 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74A8A4294B for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:13:08 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCE4540E38 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:12:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.12]) by qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ud7K1k0020FhH24A1i73Q9; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:07:03 +0000 Received: from sz0220.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.137]) by omta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ui721k00w2xZMJ48Ui72yB; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:07:02 +0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:07:02 +0000 (UTC) From: pethier@comcast.net To: "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA" s=q20121106; t=1359655623; bh=nX+ppeSBj476uZvJ4rruiEYbFtfIFgbsbr/T/JUzimg=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=sQipb+pvNSxNoIpopNM0kbRPDt++eg/7eYTsQ+3ysg6A7k08R+incHbKWw0jWsty8 qY300yEXYA/ulfphNtfwJiKgYTCg7pAWVOOnro0H+1rKD19gmPH182YwVY/JFL9Jrc lSttqYNeANPlA6xDgyLyyUxTI085HwmZMe/TF+cQtWhuKHuNeiG/s/ehPX6jTYncuk tBZjIbdtj8Fbcb//BuGrs0k9qN+ePDIY/F/PjjKknFTCbDTVft3A5ZoREMjtkfBtWX cxkTtaJaUPZ+YmLu3TvsdTCJITAvwz5K0OoBArRVAeQWnq8y/xqhWofR5voOEbUn+O XskmzoIlmwf/A== Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA" > To: pethier@comcast.net, "Brian Kemp" > Cc: "Shop Talk List" > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:09:46 AM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? > We're just about to make the same decision > (Granite Transformations).B Personally, from an > engineerbs perspective, Ibd prefer the removal and > replacement approach but my wife is enthralled > with the b1-day aspectb of the change plus webre > going to be selling the house soon and I wonbt be > living with the bcover-upb. Trust me. Ours does not look second-best to a removal. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier@comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica http://www.mnautox.com http://www.mntriumphs.org _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 11:20:39 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA1E142919 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:20:39 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F9B40E3B for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:20:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.19]) by qmta01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id uiAu1k00D0QuhwU51iFeDw; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:15:38 +0000 Received: from [192.168.82.100] ([71.235.119.87]) by omta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id uiFa1k00Q1tDsSn3NiFeKP; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:15:38 +0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:15:32 -0500 From: "Peter J. Thomas" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: Jim Franklin References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> <510A9401.7080403@comcast.net> s=q20121106; t=1359656138; bh=ZVZU3jyp7CelxI3YfD3m00ORvxdInf/x0OBNKFQEJdY=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=ardkkujuYUvOwCT3Uv4WnsmbfRVxFF+1Dvk8Jh/U7c1dQxJwo3NeWn0VHfDQvVvMt 3rk78pdd4mF54upHaOhJ2eHcUn3JbBulG2G2FRbl1CzzVkY0LEiL8F959MdTOY9bDs KT6aZ14ZAlUGJQw8LMf4pCdTA+6X6KdycwDmAiYQSCYL3uSryrKyA2w9JzmSKLUW3l DYe2fpR8gZv0oEtoG8tBuA7Yn3Ixgl6j3uByHT1F/SljB3w+ArCFrx4oDx+JiO5KsA Pb5tUQGQvyQoq2BUkkkDmMRm9/WnGDAPlyvBY11GmIKYd7SmALizYVOsBK7YwjTEPb n+tW1FikgDM0w== Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/31/2013 10:55 AM, Peter J. Thomas wrote: > On 1/30/2013 8:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: >> Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching >> alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an >> undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, >> instead of >> being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use >> laminate >> unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a >> forever counter, so it is a possibility. >> >> One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut >> out the >> sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain? >> >> Concrete is out, way too much work. >> >> There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block. >> >> Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)? >> >> thanks, > > Redid our counters with granite floor tiles. Was two decades ago when > tiles were cheaper. We found a bargain on a nice tiles under 4$ a > square foot. Prices are higher now but shopping around you might find > some bargains. Put down 3/4 plywood and layer of cement board set in > mortar. Bought a cheap tile saw (< $100) and ripped strips for the > edge and laid the tiles on top. I used a narrow gap and grout that > closely matched the tiles. Also deliberately choose a fine grain > granite so the tiles would not stand out. Sealed there hasn't be much > grout staining except around the coffee maker and bleach does a good > cleaning that. A modest kitchen, about 22 linear feet including and > island, was under $700. BTW here is a Facebook photo. http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/34996_10200222482028850_190707104_n.jpg > > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk@autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas@comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas@comcast.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 11:28:17 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC10B42941 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:28:17 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.16]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BDC940E3B for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:27:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.35]) by qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ud051k00A0lTkoCA1iNCSL; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:22:12 +0000 Received: from sz0220.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.138]) by omta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id uiNB1k00e2yr1eL8QiNBPa; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:22:12 +0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:22:11 +0000 (UTC) From: pethier@comcast.net To: "Peter J. Thomas" s=q20121106; t=1359656532; bh=/jnKBMrpq1K6tXOV+uEOyVKkV+XnQWyL5NNRkaJ7Ojg=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=aMV01UtzvLRXak9i8wD5WqwauZkuXjHGgJDjQbY49HvSFuC2jqJiTK1SzzlXvG6G/ ovwjmYWE81S25ZRHc3DVqGVluMsNWjUlwEQDDXjv12DdnzKjFmMTGwewSs/AsjtNAd ni8K1So/sr++esVncWTcO3TUSLnUAL97CROggAgZ2i1WcJyLV9aZBE8TeTdnNsFlr6 ORLnfMmS+XCjBtHoUfOQc2puYEnn9U13JwHG++ihk2qZmmO7GAYftVsRBYfRfoHrTb QEBm5pcptIeA3VCzh8Dmr6Sukh/RWDtypw2DYW0f7YJ6H84rKMLrwiFh8TDLn/cy1K hmFQ8Ox4dSq1g== Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net > Redid our counters with granite floor tiles. Was two decades ago when > tiles were cheaper. We found a bargain on a nice tiles under 4$ a > square foot. Prices are higher now but shopping around you might find > some bargains. Put down 3/4 plywood and layer of cement board set in > mortar. Bought a cheap tile saw (< $100) and ripped strips for the > edge > and laid the tiles on top. I used a narrow gap and grout that closely > matched the tiles. Also deliberately choose a fine grain granite so > the > tiles would not stand out. Sealed there hasn't be much grout staining > except around the coffee maker and bleach does a good cleaning that. A > modest kitchen, about 22 linear feet including and island, was under > $700. Sue and I made a countertop for the new cabinets we put in the dining room. I fitted the backer-board and she set the tile. She does not let me touch tile, plastering or paint. She loves mixed stone-and-glass tiles and was looking for a place to use them. I don't think I'd like this for a kitchen, though. She wanted me to buy her a new miter saw for Christmas just so she could make the miter on the wood edging. I'm going to try to remember to shoot the kitchen counter for a shop-talker who asked. I should shoot this too. I'll post on my Flickr site tonight, if I remember to do it... Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier@comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica http://www.mnautox.com http://www.mntriumphs.org _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 12:17:07 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2041542940 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:17:07 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ye0-f169.google.com (mail-ye0-f169.google.com [209.85.213.169]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0FF54068F for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:17:00 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ye0-f169.google.com with SMTP id l13so704386yen.0 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:12:05 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DnTFTJP6iveoKYbsRV4l2KHORo3JLmjIwp/PH7JWBOk=; b=Yoa+evY2qYrAEAGjlo6jg67aWbd11cf0VKKpl6xepKrM/mkvf+BIyrs6i+h2Yce6M6 ivAmiH5Q+CLwoQ8onjkNJ9cnlVbZonzT1T/Hfi04caVvhMIVXZJhMoPeTMgGjEQ0accC oFiZ7c3mIuoz0yzJwA/jnNEnzBehyywG1OikORQMLfODl/RXq4mufLTnVVBYhbIvobkH /GqJD8mR07nx8dfJVoW5gjnGDw1SbtBKYZw1fAVLPXKzjVfnPUq9mSYsd+pQVXfZJWfr zP4gtRA1ah6GtOyNJ9J78xHhYBrYCvUaX5l6Mth2GGqK+OeoqvqFCFKHQJ2eUb1fS1X0 8y0w== w75mr11371704yhj.35.1359659525152; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:12:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z61sm9331735yhn.12.2013.01.31.11.12.03 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:12:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:12:01 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: pethier@comcast.net References: <1481370318.225165.1359655470432.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net On 1/31/2013 1:04 PM, pethier@comcast.net wrote: > What seams? I don't see any. I don't know how they did that. Most excellent. > Take her to their showroom. I think she will be impressed. Sue originally wanted granite look (we have a wheeled island from Fleet Farm [really!] with a slab of granite on top), and the granitetranformations looked good, but when she saw the sea-shells she had to have them. I'll do that. > I didn't care. She doesn't get to design my shop, so she can do what she wants with her kitchen. I don't care about the design, I care about paying for it and cleaning it. I overheard her telling someone not too long ago how good she is at 'cleaning as she goes' and how the kitchen is usually clean when she's done cooking. She's right. But were one to videotape the house while she cooks, one might see someone else in the room too that actually does that cleaning. That someone doesn't want to pay for granite *and* have to scrub grout lines. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 12:20:15 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABFF42941 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:20:15 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-gh0-f182.google.com (mail-gh0-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68D834069D for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:20:11 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-gh0-f182.google.com with SMTP id z15so700256ghb.13 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:15:15 -0800 (PST) h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=P7clNV1yZfcdwfLHlG+YhvVVzuX29s4mEYC2ftvxdO4=; b=uMykzt3Cv/gEKPj9flk7DbWlEvNf291mEYJ7f8VplusqkwZ9m3WwTO3OiX7+DlYZhy 83qImHX02UcGF0XPEj1Q2cbeNijQUvD4scbF/q3ku+++9wkJzpCb3m9Y8proRe18xG1p xnTHri+9iGPjVFgvdhmO9otoXjCKESrsye3F4Km9WLUMI+0O+L/uUXDG3jIiD0nM9QL6 o4SYglyWd2nJ0NyN71kEpzXuW6P19nWm6vzmocs1k5aoCVAlzUt8NPImAXURy/7xMUff otxEeK5+fELZByT2N7HY1SkPUmPlJDfbbkPC8UYGP30oiMmNQCgAb7iODSP2ozmbb/gI NZbA== t65mr11486630yhm.122.1359659715833; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:15:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-101-6.hsd1.fl.comcast.net. [71.203.101.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e64sm9394395yhd.0.2013.01.31.11.15.14 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:15:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:15:13 -0500 From: Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Jim, I forgot to mention I'm about to take a crack at a DIY concrete countertop for the old house. I'll post if it goes well. I thought it was too much work, too, but I just can't turn down the (lack of) cost. I'm hoping this granite transformations covers the other house. That'd be very nice. Scott On 1/30/2013 8:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching > alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an > undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, instead of > being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use laminate > unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a > forever counter, so it is a possibility. > > One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut out the > sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain? > > Concrete is out, way too much work. > > There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block. > > Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)? > > thanks, _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 13:02:17 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DDF242979 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:02:17 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ia0-f173.google.com (mail-ia0-f173.google.com [209.85.210.173]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B167642971 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:01:43 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ia0-f173.google.com with SMTP id h37so27633iak.32 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:56:47 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=47MB3WGaFvxEWXrrxiysYsWWm4LkPegAxQnhmOpK75Y=; b=nWLCj2Ti+Ih5Xc5+L2AIv3rs1gFBD8SWvVk24zIeCMnpaASfv8z7VUtTqy98LkpKpx WLaNw0gstPmodlBoXMIZIYLxmGVWBX6KkPlFp17THPs9pdrltmXTQnUVQ5HME712MGV2 ogMVaPdDEljLJBJVPFiZFfCXN+HDOmPQtkKuGLJOooawrLUZB7C2RzxWrF3iiG23yATr ZNYpGc3eUjd/bBVys8BxuSxHTYEGreQfZWl+b81+cer8Xtd716U9pbUPCqfTUU0A/PKR Fv2f9j6ZnGlbauR6qosQQDH9thrFy7BaPf/orRPzDm5Y+ugYGI9sfPVE3hs4/u55oTZQ Hg/g== g16mr7996959ice.26.1359662206959; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.44.116 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:56:46 -0800 (PST) References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> <510AC2C1.5090906@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:56:46 -0500 From: Paul Parkanzky To: Scott Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I have concrete for the counter we put in when we finished our basement. I think it came out really well: http://www.flickr.com/photos/24556082@N02/7846083560/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/24556082@N02/7846083666/in/photostream/ For a piece that small, it could be poured and polished elsewhere and then installed. -Paul On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Scott wrote: > Jim, > > I forgot to mention I'm about to take a crack at a DIY concrete countertop > for the old house. I'll post if it goes well. I thought it was too much > work, too, but I just can't turn down the (lack of) cost. I'm hoping this > granite transformations covers the other house. That'd be very nice. > > Scott > > > On 1/30/2013 8:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > >> Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching >> alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an >> undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, instead >> of >> being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use laminate >> unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a >> forever counter, so it is a possibility. >> >> One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut out >> the >> sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain? >> >> Concrete is out, way too much work. >> >> There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block. >> >> Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)? >> >> thanks, _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 15:14:44 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57E694296D for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:14:44 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from homiemail-a94.g.dreamhost.com (caibbdcaaaaf.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.5]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBBEE42939 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:14:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from homiemail-a94.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a94.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADB838A071; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:09:39 -0800 (PST) :mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s= groupwbench.org; bh=o7MQzH6FB0hk57GkEOf7bX/N1VY=; b=mavTfAe06syn wj1UPRidRtCv8ZsfoX9j38pvFW4LScO7TgH8M1ZivXnQ/+6SYWVa4Xa70LlH3pV4 La1cEg7Z71Lw5lAauq6UsbqTembACpawYQwHDjGYilTDXjVoFtgUV72DONNB3raL lxE3y+Nb/IxVba0NgiWTGceQLxsiQZ0= Received: from gchander-e6420.india.int.com (pool-mnat.min.navisite.com [216.251.225.55]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jamesf@groupwbench.org) by homiemail-a94.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6620B38A059; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:09:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Franklin Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:09:38 -0500 References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> <510AC2C1.5090906@gmail.com> To: Paul Parkanzky Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net THAT'S CONCRETE?!?!?! I had no idea. You have totally converted me :-) Not decided on it yet, but the possibilities.... jim On Jan 31, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Paul Parkanzky wrote: > I have concrete for the counter we put in when we finished our basement. > > I think it came out really well: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/24556082@N02/7846083560/ > http://www.flickr.com/photos/24556082@N02/7846083666/in/photostream/ > > For a piece that small, it could be poured and polished elsewhere and then > installed. > > -Paul _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 16:15:18 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44EDE42981 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 16:15:18 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from mail-ia0-f173.google.com (mail-ia0-f173.google.com [209.85.210.173]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86BDD40453 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 16:15:10 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail-ia0-f173.google.com with SMTP id h37so244737iak.32 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:10:14 -0800 (PST) h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Cn5WMbomhL3FqjkgEzoOsUJyOfO7EXdEVsX+xdVrUXI=; b=Z+sT639Pdw4hQ5KsMcF0zcMMhR1EiJc8876WkLaKB8Q7e0fIPnE98F00E7FCI+Mekw CTVqdAbCJ4svYlE01Vjxh9h45wUppv5qVnWwoCKqKUpx4HRJrw62rFHF+lDGUpDl+TFb OLnWC/QXV5DnLv5Whbo8R7hVTkU32IIt9uARq66IcyOeEdxcafjKKv9PIxvQ7rpelrPB GwWZoUzl1110C22WJZth83Rda4NeonM53kJRg2um0fkLfK2noh78CIdHaB5mVcfbiuw4 JMUu+H5VIA2sbrRfSrwvCuLBJ1FBVzoXo0GMuvBDAEZ1EFz+IkRMWMlag6VK/y4ksUOw 3TEg== Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.44.116 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:10:14 -0800 (PST) References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> <510AC2C1.5090906@gmail.com> <83E19F49-DBC0-4463-840D-25CDA5F4B519@groupwbench.org> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:10:14 -0500 From: Paul Parkanzky To: Jim Franklin Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net I should have given more details. It's concrete that's mixed with a fairly coarse aggregate, and then the voids are filled with the black epoxy you see. You can make concrete just about any color you want, and you can get different color/size aggregate to really spice it up. A friend did concrete counters with ribbons of copper in it. I've also seen various colors of glass pebbles or chips used. FWIW, the material cost of the counter in the picture was ~$100. But my brother pours a lot of stuff like this as a hobby and already had the expensive equipment (vibrator, diamond wheels for the angle grinder, etc). I just wanted to put it out there because I saw people dismissing concrete and I wanted people see that it could come out pretty nice. -Paul On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > THAT'S CONCRETE?!?!?! > > I had no idea. You have totally converted me :-) > > Not decided on it yet, but the possibilities.... > > jim > > On Jan 31, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Paul Parkanzky wrote: > > > I have concrete for the counter we put in when we finished our basement. > > > > I think it came out really well: > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/24556082@N02/7846083560/ > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/24556082@N02/7846083666/in/photostream/ > > > > For a piece that small, it could be poured and polished elsewhere and > then > > installed. > > > > -Paul _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 16:51:52 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF9640423 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 16:51:52 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from homiemail-a51.g.dreamhost.com (caibbdcaaaaf.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.5]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8897340395 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 16:46:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from homiemail-a51.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a51.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB7A2E807B; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:40:50 -0800 (PST) :mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s= groupwbench.org; bh=/VWZbpsBZdbZsJ7kFCf+AzjyeIE=; b=Jv8KxGFrGBHg 4Zvmm5W5ySVK+R6o0vpTSI418GNeb3LsWo9+q0e8bdYOzURmFLyzsCBo09h1rbmW UAZ/BQL67AtE4MgT2S5vDz9Vk8ds8C9uJrDPAkvIeP6CmsMTa+58YIZKXCyCHRhP vY5uPNXmFRfl5LNBdAOd4IajVmxV5M0= Received: from gchander-e6420.india.int.com (pool-mnat.min.navisite.com [216.251.225.55]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jamesf@groupwbench.org) by homiemail-a51.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D2E5B2E8076; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:40:49 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Franklin Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:40:48 -0500 References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> <510AC2C1.5090906@gmail.com> <83E19F49-DBC0-4463-840D-25CDA5F4B519@groupwbench.org> To: Paul Parkanzky Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Yep, I spent the afternoon reading about and looking at them, lights inside, transparency using fiber optics, all kinds of crazy interesting stuff. Girlfriend mentioned laying fossils and motorcycle parts in there. I'm trying to figure out how to lay spent sprockets in there without it causing a catch on the surface :-) I also like the idea of using broken engine bits as surface aggregate. A play on engine salad... jim On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:10 PM, Paul Parkanzky wrote: > I should have given more details. It's concrete that's mixed with a fairly coarse aggregate, and then the voids are filled with the black epoxy you see. You can make concrete just about any color you want, and you can get different color/size aggregate to really spice it up. A friend did concrete counters with ribbons of copper in it. I've also seen various colors of glass pebbles or chips used. > > FWIW, the material cost of the counter in the picture was ~$100. But my brother pours a lot of stuff like this as a hobby and already had the expensive equipment (vibrator, diamond wheels for the angle grinder, etc). > > I just wanted to put it out there because I saw people dismissing concrete and I wanted people see that it could come out pretty nice. > > -Paul _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 17:08:17 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C6AF40549 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:08:17 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from p3plsmtpa09-10.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa09-10.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.239]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9B94044B for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:07:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.107] ([12.162.141.2]) by p3plsmtpa09-10.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with id uo321k00603JK1Y01o32hk; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:03:03 -0700 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:02:52 -0600 From: Pat Horne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 To: shop-talk@autox.team.net References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org> <5109D67E.8010003@earthlink.net> <5109D9D0.3040208@snet.net> <5109F786.8020504@xxiii.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Wayne, If you like the looks of the tile and the grout is the only thing you don't like, there is an epoxy-based grout that is great. You have to dig out all the old grout and replace it, but after that you have no maintenance. I used it on several jobs, bathroom floor, shower floor and surround and kitchen counters, all with great results. The stuff I used came from Lowes and is made by Laticrete. It is not cheap, but for my uses it was fine. Laticrete has a calculator on their site that will help you figure out how much it will cost you. Be warned, the number of units they calculate will be 1/4 the number of units you buy at Lowes because the Lowe's packages are 1/4 unit. Each quarter unit is about $18. Be sure to clean up the haze as you go, this stuff is really hard to clean up later. If I had tile in my shop I would have used it there! Peace, Pat Thusly spake Wayne > On 1/30/2013 9:41 PM, Jim Juhas wrote: >> We considered tile and that turned out to be our second choice once we >> thought about the issues of keeping the grout clean. > > True That! I bought my place in 2001 with 4x4" tile countertops, and > thought they looked cool and classy, and had previously seen them in > some supposedly high end homes. They are a MAJOR PITA to clean. On the > positive side: they are actually [usually] cheaper to install then > laminate. That should tell you something. I am ready to tear the crap > out and throw down cheap formica before I scrub grout again!!! > >> We settled on granite and fortunately found a particular piece we liked >> that was near the bottom end of the price range. I suggest you check > > Granite is top of the price range, but can be stained and supposedly > needs some kinda sealant on it periodically. I was gonna go with one > of the synthetic or "quartz" intermediate ones, like Corian or > Silstone, or -- can't remember all the brands now, but if you've been > looking you know. > > Got divorced instead and had to pay to keep the place (fair deal, but > still sux) so tile it is :( > > -wayne > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat@hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice & Text 5026 FM 2001 Pat@HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive From shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Thu Jan 31 23:03:21 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mharc@autox.team.net Received: from autox.team.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C1C640EA5 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 23:03:21 -0700 (MST) Delivered-To: shop-talk@autox.team.net Received: from qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.227]) by autox.team.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E174740537 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 22:58:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.72]) by qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id utnv1k0021ZMdJ4ACttV0d; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 05:53:29 +0000 Received: from sz0220.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.138]) by omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id uttU1k00V2yr1eL8cttU4u; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 05:53:28 +0000 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 05:53:28 +0000 (UTC) From: pethier@comcast.net To: "Peter J. Thomas" s=q20121106; t=1359698009; bh=29wP2jFxDa8cMbfqND9bLdlkKOp5s3+BIQXGrnje2cQ=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=eJ9AHTTs+wggtV9Tk1kdWnNGsxUSQ+IZHYwVnHzARJvB+FMJ6M706xM982D/h8i7K b+doGoxOsW7KXaQprjuGXQ86WdO2iTWw496yynX6qageKTEsx/ipGUgrguKUTZWdNy IuwVCwHgXZtUSdWy1QsLm+25RFKLOd+o57KwjAgpuTBowHdUKuqrJOtWC1ytZ0wmmz 6jhjQqyaEd0S2gW+GmjNf1Z5a02K656DcPorOq/kQgkuVOiDlCAqscD/IBBi/MuyBM KwlJv//r8O+Hw+RXxL8zoJkrkLa9vyVoa6hoL1kaP+QDGX9F9+zcfz1vHcOZJraAqq 3eOiG4NGYqPMw== Cc: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net Here are some snaps of my countertops. http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/8433776569/in/photostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/8433777107/in/photostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/8433777631/in/photostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/8433766755/in/photostream/ Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier@comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica http://www.mnautox.com http://www.mntriumphs.org > Sue and I made a countertop for the new cabinets we put in the dining > room. I fitted the backer-board and she set the tile. She does not let > me touch tile, plastering or paint. She loves mixed stone-and-glass > tiles and was looking for a place to use them. I don't think I'd like > this for a kitchen, though. > > She wanted me to buy her a new miter saw for Christmas just so she > could make the miter on the wood edging. > > I'm going to try to remember to shoot the kitchen counter for a > shop-talker who asked. I should shoot this too. I'll post on my Flickr > site tonight, if I remember to do it... > > > Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA > 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue > 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch > 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl > 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red > pethier@comcast.net > http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier > http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica > http://www.mnautox.com > http://www.mntriumphs.org > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk@autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier@comcast.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk@autox.team.net Archive: http://www.team.net/archive