Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil, again

From: Wayne <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 09:41:14 -0400

On 11/2/2012 1:21 AM, Dave C wrote:
> However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20
> full synthetic oil for the engine.  I was in the local chain auto parts
> store today picking up a couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of
> generic 10w30 that I use in just about everything and I saw that the
> ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, and it's REALLY spendy.

The ex-wife has a Scion TC with the same 2.2L 4 that Toyota puts in the 
Camary and probably other stuff. They spec'ed 0W20 for use in all 
climates except the hottest part of summer.  IIRC, I ran 0W20 in the 
winter & 5W30 in the summer. Castrol sells 0W20 in the regular GTX, and 
their synthetic blend.
I believe there are two reasons why manufacturers are going to super 
light oils: 1) they help make the EPA gas mileage numbers test better, 
possibly at the expense of higher engine wear.  2) Engines really are 
built to MUCH tighter tolerances & clearances then they used to be. 
Cylinder & bearing clearances of only a few the-thousandths are common.

-W
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From: Ian McFetridge <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 09:44:37 -0400

I'm no expert, but I think they go to the thinner synthetic oil to increase
mileage by decreasing drag on the reciprocating parts.  I imagine you could
swap 10W30 dino and get the first oil change analyzed to see if there is an
issue (again, not an expert!).  or maybe extend the change intervals to
make the synthetic more economical.

 I run Mobil 1 in our cars, but only change the oil every 15k on the
toyota, v8 4runner, which makes the synthetic a bit more economical.  I buy
the oil in 5qt cans at Walmart.  I had been testing the oil with
Blackstone, but it always came back saying I could go longer between
changes based on the amount of additive pack that remained.  Our other cars
get free oil changes when the idiot light comes on, but they seem to go at
least 10k miles between changes -- maybe that's another reason some
manufacturers spec synthetics.

- Ian

On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 1:21 AM, Dave C <[email-masked]> wrote:

> My wife and I are considering our third Subaru Forester.  We have a 2000
> with 147K miles which is my daily commuter, and my wife has a 2008.  We are
> considering getting a '13 model to replace my 2000. In talking with my inde
> Subaru mechanic (Subaru only, all former dealer mechanics) I found the new
> engine is a DOHC, chain driven cam, shim under bucket engine.  So far, no
> big deal.  I have been riding motorcycle engines with that technology for
> years, although if the valves ever do need an adjustment it's going to be
> ugly. However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20 full synthetic oil for the
> engine.  I was in the local chain auto parts store today picking up a
> couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of generic 10w30 that I use in just
> about everything and I saw that the ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap,
> and it's REALLY spendy.
>
> We really like our Subarus.  We live in rural Washington and live down
> about 2 miles of steep,  semi-paved former logging road that gets snow in
> the winter some years, and the Subarus are all that keep us mobile.  Do
> ya'll think this is anything to worry about? 0w20 just doesn't sound
> right...
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From: "Eric J Russell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 09:45:33 -0400 a=P2oOn6vrs4wA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:17 a=3x23V0CFAAAA:8 a=RXa9WAT7Be8VtjrhULwA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=nqJWFPyLr_AA:10 a=S2wpYzp2RsyRkoRNwqcm1Q==:117 reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0

I suspect as the demand for 0w-20 oils increases (many new cars are 
specifying very light oils) other oil companies will come out with 0w-20 
oils (helping to keep prices down).

Any Red Line dealers local to you?
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=124&pcid=21

Are you willing to check prices at WalMart?

What is about 0w-20 that concerns you other than the price? If the engine is 
designed for it it the light weight shouldn't be a worry. This is not 1930's 
technology in a 1950's engine in a 1970's MG...

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave C"

> I saw that the ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, and it's REALLY 
> spendy.
>
>  0w20 just doesn't sound  right...

[email-masked]

---

From: Scott Hall <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:04:43 -0400

I've had cars that spec 0W-20 for a few years now, so I guess the shock has
worn off. I still worry that it can hold up to the Florida heat, but they
spec-ed it, so I have to assume they've done their homework.

As far as availability, there are plenty of options. I use Mobil 1, but I
remember seeing others.

Based on just the cars we have, I assume 0W-20 is going to be the new
standard. It apparently does a lot for fuel efficiency and tolerances are a
lot closer in engines now.

Scott
On Nov 2, 2012 2:21 AM, "Dave C" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> options/shop-talk/[email-masked]<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]>

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---

From: Benjamin Zwissler <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 12:46:28 -0400

The trend to lower viscosity oils is to reduce the power used to pump the
oil improving fuel economy.  Thinner oil pumps easier.  I have seem some
articles expressing concern about the impact of lower viscosity oil on
engine longevity, but as others have said you have to assume the engine OEM
engineers (and I am one) have assessed that impact and convinced themselves
that the engine will still meet useful life targets with the specified
oil.

That said, passenger car useful life targets are typically 120-140,000
miles.  Most OEMs would say they met their target if 90% of the engines
that had the specified maintenance on a "typical" duty cycle lasted that
long.  If your duty cycle is more severe than "typical" (and that can be
too low a load or too high a load) or you don't maintain it per the
schedule then you're likely to get lower life.  Less stressful duty cycles
will make the engine last longer, but there is a point where increased
maintenance isn't better.  I had a long argument while working a curve at
an autocross with a guy who was convinced that running high loads was good
for an engine.  Not true.  For example, a combine engine, with a duty cycle
that's 90% full load and 10% idle, will likely have a useful life (measured
in hours) that's 1/3 that of the same engine installed in an urban delivery
truck.  Of course all idle and never warming the engine up will also cause
reduced life.  In the end this is the literal meaning of YMMV.

Personally, the 0W20 and 5W20 scares me a little and so far I've stuck with
5W30.

Ben.....

On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 1:21 AM, Dave C <[email-masked]> wrote:

> options/shop-talk/bjzwissler@**gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]>

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From: "Arvid Jedlicka" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 12:46:30 -0500

It could be that the '0' scares us because we have not seen it before. We 
need to remember that the '0' does not mean "does not have any viscosity", 
only that the SAE viscosity index stops there.

Page 11 of this ... http://www.oil-power.com/downloads/ViscTutor.pdf ... 
indicates that had some other index been used we could have numbers that 
would also be new to us ... we had not used that low a number before ... but 
the numbers would not as psychologically scary as 'zero'.

Maybe in the future the marketing department will see that 'zero' scares 
people and they will petition the standards board for corrective action and 
'zero' will become '100' under the new index ;-} Or maybe the motor 
engineers will make motors that will tolerate even lower viscosities and SAE 
will come up with  a -5W [that is minus 5W] to adjust an index as it not 
longer reflecting the needs.

Arvid 

[email-masked]

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From: "Jack Brooks" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 19:38:57 -0700

Dave,

The manufacturer does know what he is doing, but some of the low viscosity
oil push is for mileage too.  If you are west of the Cascades, I'd not be
concerned about bumping up to a 5w20.

Once you are out of warrantee, use the synthetic, but extend the intervals
to make the synthetic more affordable.  I've gone to annual changes on all
of my cars, using Mobil 1.  The only variance on this theme is my wife's
Volvo XC90.  It's a 2.5 liter straight 5 turbo engine in an SUV and after a
year an oil analysis showed that the Aluminum and steel count was a tad
high, so I switched to Redline and the numbers are back to being OK.  The
Mobil 1 just didn't hold up for 15k in the turbo engine, but it's fine in
everything else I own and has been since 1981, when I switched to Mobil 1
and annual changes.

It's been 30+ years of annual (spring) oil changes, several cars have come
and gone and I know I'm doing the right thing.  It's less expensive, less
work and works just fine.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Dave C
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 10:22 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again

My wife and I are considering our third Subaru Forester.  We have a 2000 
with 147K miles which is my daily commuter, and my wife has a 2008.  We 
are considering getting a '13 model to replace my 2000. In talking with 
my inde Subaru mechanic (Subaru only, all former dealer mechanics) I 
found the new engine is a DOHC, chain driven cam, shim under bucket 
engine.  So far, no big deal.  I have been riding motorcycle engines 
with that technology for years, although if the valves ever do need an 
adjustment it's going to be ugly. However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20 
full synthetic oil for the engine.  I was in the local chain auto parts 
store today picking up a couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of 
generic 10w30 that I use in just about everything and I saw that the 
ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, and it's REALLY spendy.

We really like our Subarus.  We live in rural Washington and live down 
about 2 miles of steep,  semi-paved former logging road that gets snow 
in the winter some years, and the Subarus are all that keep us mobile.  
Do ya'll think this is anything to worry about? 0w20 just doesn't sound 
right...
_______________________________________________

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Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
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