Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dead PC

From: "Peter J. Thomas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:42:22 -0400

On 8/15/2012 4:25 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> I have just returned from a two week vacation and my home PC is completely
> dead.  Even though it is plugged into a surge protector, I unplugged it and my
> router before I left town, although I did leave the ethernet cable in.
> Everything else in the house seems to be working fine, with the exception of a
> CO2 dector, which perhaps coincidently now shows ERR on the display.  Still,
> that seems like only a concidence, as the only connection between the PC and
> the outside world was the ethernet cord.  However, I do know there was at
> least one severe thunderstorm warning for the area while I was gone.
>
> I know enough to be able to install new components in the box, but have no
> idea where to start trouble shooting when it is totally unresponsive.  It is
> not a high end PC, but plenty sufficient for my home needs.  I confirmed that
> the cord was good, but that has been it so far.  Any recommendations on what I
> should do next?

I had a lightning strike near my house, probably a tree.  It did not 
strike the power/phone lines but was close enough for an EM pulse. I 
lost a PC that was disconnected at the time, some of the flash memory 
was wiped and the CRT TV was gaussed.

As for diagnosing, I'd start with power supply.  Disconnect and test 
with a volt meter.

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From: Mark J Bradakis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 14:44:14 -0600

You could try removing the ethernet card and then seeing what happens,
but offhand I'd say your power supply is toast.

mjb.

[email-masked]

---

From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:48:06 -0500

That's three quick votes for the power supply, but it has about 50 wires
coming out of it, so how does one go about testing it?

> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 14:44:14 -0600
> From: [email-masked]
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
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From: Ronnie Day <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:56:31 -0500

I'd suggest looking on YouTube for PC troubleshooting videos. Maybe
Tomshardware, and Newegg, too. Lots of info out there. Lots of questions,
the first of which is do you get any indication of power at all? Doesn't
sound like it. If the PSU has an easily accessible fuse, check it first
thing.

I lost the PSU and the MoBo in a Dell desktop when a power transformer a
couple of blocks from our place blew. Fortunately nothing else was effected
and the PC was under (parts) warranty, but I went through three PSUs and 2
MoBos before I got it running again.

Hopefully you'll have better luck,
Ron

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Mark J Bradakis <[email-masked]> wrote:

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---

From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:21:39 -0500

You are correct that there is no indication of any power at all.  I can not
find any fuses anywhere.  The only component I have moved so far is the power
supply, but that gives me a pretty good look at the motherboard.

I will do some googling later this evening and report back as appropriate.

> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:56:31 -0500
> From: [email-masked]
> > Donate:
options/shop-talk/ronnie.day@**gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/option
s/shop-talk/[email-masked]>

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---

From: Doug Braun <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:37:17 -0400

Use you nose!  If something blew out, you might be able to smell it.

Doug

[email-masked]

---

From: Jim Franklin <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:43:10 -0400

> least one severe thunderstorm warning for the area while I was gone.

You confirmed that the outlet is working? That got me for an hour after a
storm tripped the GFCI in the garage.
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

---

From: Steven Trovato <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:46:17 -0400

Make sure you actually have power where you're plugging it in!  Power 
strips have breakers that can pop in a storm.  Even the house circuit 
breaker can trip.  Even more likely if it's a GFCI.  Make sure a lamp 
or something works where you're plugging the computer in.

-Steve Trovato
[email-masked]

At 05:21 PM 8/15/2012, Jim Stone wrote:
>You are correct that there is no indication of any power at all.

[email-masked]

---

From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:51:02 -0500

Yep.  Also confirmed that the power cord is delivering 120v to the supply.
Been researching new power supplies. So far, the only direct match I have
found is through HP at $80.  The computer is an Pavilion s500.  I also will
check with a computer supply house near here tomorrow.

> From: [email-masked]
> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:43:10 -0400
> > dead. Even though it is plugged into a surge protector, I unplugged it
and
> my
> > Everything else in the house seems to be working fine, with the exception
of
> a

[email-masked]

---

From: Battmain <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 14:55:44 -0700 (PDT)

And the power cord is 'properly' seated in the back of the power supply?

>________________________________
> From: Jim Franklin <[email-masked]>
>To: shop-talk List <[email-masked]> 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 5:43 PM
>(snip)

[email-masked]

---

From: Mark J Bradakis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:13:03 -0600

> check with a computer supply house near here tomorrow.

One thing to watch for when getting a brand new power supply for an older
computer is getting enough matching connectors.  New power supplies come
with some number of the thin, flat SATA connectors, not the old 4 prong IDE
types.

mjb.

[email-masked]

---

From: "Peter J. Thomas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 18:39:21 -0400

> with some number of the thin, flat SATA connectors, not the old 4 

More important is the mother board connector.  They've changed over 
time.  Also $80 is kind of high for PSU, try NewEgg.com.

> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: Peter Murray <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 18:39:39 -0400

Jim-

Here is another supplier of power supplies that purport to be
compatible with that system, if it does turn out to be a bad/damaged
supply.

http://www.911forpcs.com/atx-1523f.html

If you have another PC in the house and you want to check the hard
drive (and perhaps copy data from it to another system) you could pull
the drive from the dead system and either drop it into a USB IDE drive
case (available at your local computer supply place, Best Buy,
Microcenter, Amazon, Newegg or elsewhere). I'm assuming, based on the
power supply info above, that this system is old enough that it has a
PATA(IDE) drive, rather than one of the newer SATA drives.

It very well may be that the power supply is just fine - and that the
trouble is your motherboard. Considering that you had no power cord
connected to the power supply while you were gone (but the ethernet
was connected), I would first suspect the motherboard, which, in this
case, would have me suggest that you start looking for a replacement
system. Lightning can get into the most amazing places!

-Peter

[email-masked]

---

From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 20:38:06 -0500

While I have been known to overlook very simple things and make my job far
harder, in this case I am certain the power source is good, the cord is good
and the connection to the computer is good.  That doesn't mean I am not
overlooking something very simple, just that those particular simple things
have been covered.  I'll see what I can learn tomorrow about replacement power
supplies.

BTW: one thing I have learned is that CO2 dectors are deliberately designed to
fail 7 years after first plugged in.  I don't remember exactly when I bought
mine, but 7 years seems about right, so it appears that it is just a
coincidence that both failed while I was gone.

> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:13:03 -0600
> From: [email-masked]
> To: [email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 20:55:24 -0500

> have been covered.  I'll see what I can learn tomorrow about replacement
power

One simple thing to check is for a physical witch on the power supply.

Modern power supplies fai a lot, but the usual failure is that they don't
output power in spec. A failure while unplugged isn't common, and I suspect
something else died. If you've got an add on Ethernet card, pull it out.
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

---

From: Darrell Walker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:14:10 -0700

> One simple thing to check is for a physical witch on the power supply.

Yes, because without the witch, there isn't any magic left in the power supply :-)

-Darrell

[email-masked]

---

From: Mark J Bradakis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 20:21:44 -0600

>> One simple thing to check is for a physical witch on the power supply.

Technology moves on.  Get a power supply with a metaphysical witch.
It will sweep all the others into the dumpster.

mjb.

[email-masked]

---

From: Fred Katz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:52:24 -0700

My neighbor had the same problem, brought his PC to me to troubleshoot. He
also had his PC plugged into a surge protector, but the PC died. Power supply
seemed dead, I recommended he buy another. Then he read somewhere about a fix.
Plug the power cord in with electricity going to the PC. Then pull the power
supply cable from the motherboard socket, wait a few seconds and reconnect the
power supply cable to the motherboard. I told him that is supposedly dangerous
and is exactly what you're not supposed to do. We did it, and his PC came back
to life. Happened  to him again a few weeks later, and the "fix" worked again.
However, he did take my advice and bought a new power supply.

Fred -

On Aug 15, 2012, at 1:25 PM, Jim Stone <[email-masked]> wrote:

> <snip>

[email-masked]

---

From: Todd Walke <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 21:37:02 -0700

>coming out of it, so how does one go about testing it?

         With a voltmeter and list of which wires carry which voltages you 
can test the power supply's output.  You have to short the PS-ON wire so 
the PSU will power up first.  Pinout diagram for the standard 20 and 24 pin 
connectors is here:
http://www.smpspowersupply.com/connectors-pinouts.html

         The easier way is to go to eBay and pickup a PSU tester like this:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/PC-20-24-Pin-PSU-ATX-HD-SATA-Power-Supply-Tester-/320908749569?pt=US_Computer_Power_Supply_Testers&hash=item4ab7a6eb01>

         You plug the 20 or 24-pin motherboard connector into it and it 
will show if all the various voltages are present or not.

Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 275,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       358,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

---

From: Wayne <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:47:21 -0400

Corsair is my choice in power supplies these days. There's a basic unit, 
a CX430 IIRC on newegg.com for like $40 that is my standard replacement. 
(Yeah, I do this for a living)

-wayne

[email-masked]

---

From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 22:01:48 -0500

Well, I have more information, but don't think it is good.  I didn't want to
wait a week to get the cheap tester from eBay and picked one up today at a
computer supply store.  Here is the one I got:
http://thermaltakeusa.com/Product.aspx?S=1405&ID=1545#Tab0.  It comes with no
information or instructions, other than a sticker on the back saying to first
plug in the 20/24 pin connector.  I pulled that from the motherboard and
plugged it into the tester.  I then plugged the power supply in and it
instantly came to life, or at least the fan started spinning.  The tester
chirped and all of the lights except for the -5V one came on.  I also unpluged
one of the 4-pin connectors and it lit up the proper +5V light.  I unplugged
the SATA power connector and tried to plug that into the tester, but for some
reason couldn't get it to connect.  Still, I would guess that the power supply
is not my problem; the motherboard is.

Is that correct, and if so, how big a deal is it to replace the board?  It
doesn't look like it would be that difficult, but I am a complete neophyte at
this, so....

As always, thanks in advance.

Jim

> Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:47:21 -0400
> From: [email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: Peter Murray <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 23:27:59 -0400

Jim-

How old is the machine? Might it still be under warranty?

You should be able to search around and find a replacement board that
is specific to this machine, but it will likely be proprietary.

What exact model of HP Pavilion S500 is this?

-Peter

[email-masked]

---

From: Wayne <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 02:05:58 -0400

I have the identical Thermaltake tester, and it seems to work well. I 
use it in conjunction with the trusty Fluke 117 to make sure things are 
good.

The negative 5 volt line is OK. Those were deprecated some years ago, 
and are usually not on newer power supplies. If you want all the gory 
details, punch up ATX on wikipedia. It sounds like your PSU is OK. Which 
sucks, because that would be the easy fix.

If you've never installed or swapped a mobo, it can be a little hairy. 
You have to properly configure all the BIOS settings, and lay down the 
heat sink grease on the CPU properly, and not zap anything with static. 
Assuming you're running Windoze? It will freak out if you put in a 
different mobo. Easiest fix would be to try to find an identical board 
on Ebay. Or, if your PC is on the older side, might just be time to 
upgrade. Current tech like DDR3 memory is dirt cheap, while stuff for 
older hardware is NOT.

My current work & home standard and favorite machine, though it's 
getting elderly at this point, is a Dell Precision 390. They were high 
end engineering workstations 5 or 6 years ago, with a Core 2 Duo CPU. I 
don't do video games or CAD/CAM, so they're plenty fast for me. You can 
score them on Ebay, sometimes for under $200. I do custom builds too 
(VortexBox media server) and have -- crikey (?!) -- 5 PCs around at the 
home at the moment.

-Wayne

On 8/16/2012 11:01 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> Well, I have more information, but don't think it is good. I didn't want
> to wait a week to get the cheap tester from eBay and picked one up today
> at a computer supply store. Here is the one I got:
> http://thermaltakeusa.com/Product.aspx?S=1405&ID=1545#Tab0. It comes
> with no information or instructions, other than a sticker on the back
> saying to first plug in the 20/24 pin connector. I pulled that from the
> motherboard and plugged it into the tester. I then plugged the power
> supply in and it instantly came to life, or at least the fan started
> spinning. The tester chirped and all of the lights except for the -5V
> one came on. I also unpluged one of the 4-pin connectors and it lit up
> the proper +5V light. I unplugged the SATA power connector and tried to
> plug that into the tester, but for some reason couldn't get it to
> connect. Still, I would guess that the power supply is not my problem;
> the motherboard is.
>
> Is that correct, and if so, how big a deal is it to replace the board?
> It doesn't look like it would be that difficult, but I am a complete
> neophyte at this, so....

[email-masked]

---

From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 07:55:56 -0500

The current machine is about 3 years old, so any warranty is long gone.  About
all I use it for at home is email and web surfing, iTunes and occasionally to
edit work-documents using Open Office.  So, I don't need anything very
powerful.  I'll do a little searching for motherboards, but based on the cost
of a new board vs. a new PC, it sounds like my best bet might be to just buy a
new box and either swap my old hard drive over or turn it into an auxiliary
drive.

> Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 02:05:58 -0400
> From: [email-masked]
> To: [email-masked]
> CC: [email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 22:41:05 -0500

Well, based on what I have learned here and through my online research, I
don't think it will be worth the expense and effort to replace my motherboard.
However, I really don't want to spend much money on a new one right now, so I
am thinking about getting a used or refurbished one.  I'd like to keep it
under $200.  Ideally, I would like something at least as fast as what I
currently have (HP Pavilion 5150T, Intel Dual Core processor E5300, 4GB DR3 -
1066MHZ SDRAM, 640GB SATA HD).  Also ideally, I would like to be able to just
move my current hard drive over to the new PC and have two internal hard
drives.  (I know I can get a SATA case, but I did say "ideally".)  And, while
I am wishing, it would be nice to be able to move my memory cards over to the
new PC to increase it's power for free.  I would also like it to run Windows
7, although I could probably be talked out of that if necessary.  (I may be
wrong about this, but I don't think I can transfer my current copy over.  I
bought my HP right before Win7 was released, and it came with an automatic
upgrade once the system was out.  As I recall, there was something in the
license that said it couldn't be transferred to another machine.  But, I could
be wrong about that.)

So, my first question is: does anyone have any recommendations for a good,
reputable place to buy a refurbished PC?  Beyond that, any recommendations on
a specific PC?  Following Wayne's advice, I have been looking at Dell
Precision 390's.  They seem to be at the upper end of my price range, but
something like this might work:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110935816819&fromMakeTrack
=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

Any thoughts on this one?
http://joy-systems.store.buy.com/p/dell-optiplex-gx620-sff-3-0ghz-2048mb-ram-
500gb-hdd-dvd-win-7-home/234733906.html?listingid=229951034
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

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From: Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:56:59 -0400

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Jim Stone <[email-masked]> wrote:
> reputable place to buy a refurbished PC?

Tiger Direct http://www.tigerdirect.com/  (CompUSA is the same company
 http://www.compusa.com/  )

Newegg   http://www.newegg.com/

You can click on Desktops, then look in your price range.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/Category/guidedSearch.asp?CatId=6&sel=Price%3BPrice4

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100019096%204017&IsNodeId=1&name=%24100%20-%20%24200

FWIW, I've had dozens of Dell computers, and haven't had any more
trouble with them than with any other brand...

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

[email-masked]

---

From: Wayne <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 08:22:01 -0400

Hey Jim,
I'm still a Windoze XP guy. Yeah, it's 11 years old, but it's fast, does 
everything I need, and I have a legit license for it on the dozen or so 
machines I take care of. Don't know anyone that likes Vista. I've used 7 
a little bit, and didn't see any reason to "upgrade". Mostly just frilly 
graphics, and when I finally found what I was looking for, it was the 
same identical friggin' dialogue box from XP. Just hidden much better.

Anyway [rant off] from what I know of windows, any hardware change like 
a system board is gonna' make it refuse to boot. The Dell I recommended, 
much as I like them, is getting old at this point and takes DDR2 memory, 
which is a bunch more expensive & incompatible with  DDR3. It sounds 
like you have an OEM licensed version of windows, so yes -- it is tied 
to the system, and you can't legally transfer it to another box. Even if 
you wanted to, it will probably tell you it's not on the HP it was sold 
for, and refuse to install.

If you're happy with what you had, I'd try to score an identical mobo' 
or system on Ebay and drop it in. Otherwise, buy a case & board from 
newegg.com and build one. I'd recommend ASUS, Gateway, or MSI in that 
order for boards. ASUS is somewhat pricey, but they've been the OEM 
supplier to HP, IBM, and Compaq for the last couple decades. Top notch.

Shoot - your HP probably has the video integrated on the board. There's 
an NVidia 8400 series board you can get for about $35 that's my fave. 
It's like the slowest chipset on the market today, but by being slow 
it's low-power; you can get a nice quiet fan-less board that's fast 
enough for any general use. Unless you're into video games or cad/cam, 
no sense running up your electric bill and listening to a fan shriek.

-w

[email-masked]

---

From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:48:56 -0500

Thanks everyone.  I have borrowed an adequate box, so I have a little time and
will keep researching.  As for building my own, I have considered this before;
maybe now is the time.  I will do a little research on the process before
making any decisions.

> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 08:22:01 -0400
> From: [email-masked]
> To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
>
> Hey Jim,

[email-masked]

---

From: Wayne <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 12:36:30 -0400

On 8/20/2012 7:56 AM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Jim Stone<[email-masked]>  wrote:

I suggest everyone stay WAY the hell away from Tiger Direct. They will 
spam your email mercilessly after an order. (unless you track down the 
corporate and personal email addresses of their IT guys and raise hell.) 
Their customer support sucks. Google it. There used to be a web site 
"tigerdirectsucks.org" with a few thousand complaints, but they have 
enough money and lawyers they appropriated the domain name for 
themselves and shut it down.

Hit NewEgg, Amazon or Provantage.

-wayne

[email-masked]

---

From: Battmain <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:47:15 -0700 (PDT)

Another source:  www.cyberpowerpc.com  No affiliation.

My dream pc is
currently at 15k. That price has varied between 10k and 15k  (Yikes!)   Have
fun with the configuration tool.. :)

As for Dells. They are great for getting
support in terms of drivers and such, but if one were to look at each
individual component, you'll see some shortcuts being taken. My current one is
3 years old, used for work. It's had various repairs over the three years.
Goes about 6-8 months before needing something. Most common problem is the
main board with the integrated video being fried. Good thing for warranty. The
repair folks have been on time, and efficient at getting the parts and
repairing. I'm due for another PC soon. 

I can't be bothered building pc's
anymore. Not worth my time getting everything to work together. 

Regards,
Brian

----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
> To: [email-masked]; "[email-masked]"
<[email-masked]>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 11:41 PM
>
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
(snip)
> So, my first question
is: does anyone have any recommendations for a good,
> reputable place to buy
a refurbished PC?  Beyond that, any recommendations on
> a specific PC? 
Following Wayne's advice, I have been looking at Dell
> Precision 390's.  

[email-masked]