Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair

From: Jim Franklin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 18:41:53 -0400

On Aug 5, 2012, at 6:05 PM, Jim Stone wrote:

> I am currently 'borrowing' a cousin's vacation house.  The cousin, who is
> extremely generous with the house, leaves his 2004 Explorer here for his
> guests to use.  Unfortunately, the brakes went out while we were driving it
> today and a little inspection revealed that the right front brake hose has
> split.  I only have limited tools here and no way to put the car on jack
> stands or ramps, but it looks like a very simple repair to me requiring only
a
> socket wrench and one open end, followed by a bleed.  Has anyone here ever
> done it?  I could certainly have the car towed to a mechanic, but doing it
> myself would give us the car to use while we are vacationing and be a nice
way
> to say 'thanks'.

If everything goes right it's very simple. But typically the nuts will be
stuck in place enough that a normal open end will just round off the nut. You
need a flare nut wrench which wraps around the nut touching all six sides.
Sometimes this doesn't work either, if they're really stuck.

However- if you break the things the lines are attached to, you've multiplied
your work/cost by 10, and now you're on the hook to follow through. You might
be able to get a mechanic to fix it quickly, especially if you can go through
the trouble of finding the parts and delivering them with the car if they
don't stock them.
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Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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From: Wayne <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 03:28:33 -0400

On 8/5/2012 6:05 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> stands or ramps, but it looks like a very simple repair to me requiring only a

An 8 or 9 year old truck blew out a brake line?! Think I'd be calling an 
attorney, not a mechanic. What a POS. No wonder they call them "Exploders"

How long till any of the others blow? I wouldn't put myself or family in 
it till it's been on a lift and thoroughly inspected. Dunno how you 
would perform such a repair without at least jacking it and pulling the 
wheel.

-Wayne

[email-masked]

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From: Paul Parkanzky <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 08:42:21 -0400

It wasn't long ago that we expected an eight or nine year old vehicle to be
held together by hope and zip ties.  Now, a piece fails and you're ready to
call the lawyers?  Cars have come a long way in the last 25 years or so.  I
don't know if I can say the same about society.

-Paul

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 3:28 AM, Wayne <[email-masked]> wrote:

> it till it's been on a lift and thoroughly inspected. Dunno how you would
> perform such a repair without at least jacking it and pulling the wheel.
>
> -Wayne

[email-masked]

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From: PJ McGarvey <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 08:44:14 -0400

> Sometimes this doesn't work either, if they're really stuck.

agreed, b/c if the line itself is worn, the connection is probably seized as
well.  Had some luck on my brother's 98 Subaru by cutting it open.  With his
understanding that it might go horribly wrong and require bending new brake
lines, I took an angle grinder and small cutting disc to the outside female
connection, slicing it down the side, that and some penetrating oil got the
connection off pretty easily on both sides.  a little damage was done to the
nut on the inside, but those threads don't do any sealing, only the flared
brake line does.

Coworker has a Ford pickup, I think an F150 that he uses only for towing a
landscaping trailer.  Told me had some *hard* brake lines go on him at the
front recently due to rust.  Might've been an '04 or somewhere around there,
certainly not decades old or anything.  Spent way too much money having a shop
fix it after being told "it's a known issue".

PJ

[email-masked]

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From: "Peter J. Thomas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 09:50:15 -0400

On 8/5/2012 6:05 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> myself would give us the car to use while we are vacationing and be a nice way
> to say 'thanks'.

This is a safety issue on vehicle that's not yours and unless you 
comfortable, which by the question it appears you're not, I'd have have 
it done professionally.

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From: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 07:03:24 -0700

Wow.  Who knew Ford was the only auto company on the planet that had an issue with parts almost certainly supplied by a 
third-party manufacturer
who likely sold similar--if not the same--parts to GM, Chrysler and quite possibly some of the 'foreign' brands.

You learn something new every day.

Bob

On 8/6/2012 12:28 AM, Wayne wrote:
>
> An 8 or 9 year old truck blew out a brake line?! Think I'd be calling an attorney, not a mechanic. What a POS. No 
> wonder they call them "Exploders"
>
> How long till any of the others blow? I wouldn't put myself or family in it till it's been on a lift and thoroughly 
> inspected. Dunno how you would perform such a repair without at least jacking it and pulling the wheel.
>
> -Wayne

-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            [email-masked]

*******************************************************************
_______________________________________________

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From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 09:17:09 -0500

Thanks guys.  I really wanted to fix it myself as a favor to my cousin, but
decided Jim was right.  Doing here without the proper tools was a potential
invitation to vacation-ruining disaster.  I called AAA and am having it towed
to the nearest dealer, who I will also have check out the other hoses.

BTW: just as a shop talk aside, Rock Auto has the replacement hoses for
$10-15.  They are about $35 at Autozone and $75 at the dealer.  The $35/75
difference seems about right, but I was really surprised to see Rock Auto so
much less than Autozone.

> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 03:28:33 -0400
> From: [email-masked]
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]
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From: John Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 07:42:42 -0700

> attorney, not a mechanic. What a POS. No wonder they call them "Exploders"

How long would you expect a brake hose to last?

Brake hoses do not see much UV (like tires or outside body rubber) or 
extremes of temperature (like engine-compartment seals, belts, and hoses 
or interior elastomers) but they are exposed to all of the crap that 
gets thrown around in the wheelwells and are in near-constant 
motion/flex while the vehicle's moving.

John.

[email-masked]

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From: Ronnie Day <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 09:46:32 -0500

OE parts are always a good bet, but can usually be bought much cheaper from
sources other than a dealer. That said, braided stainless replacements are
usually even better for performance and longevity. I'd give good odds that
few people, even in this group go to the trouble of flushing the brakes on
their cars every couple of years. I don't flush brake systems as often as I
should. If that's not done problems are virtually guaranteed, while if it
is at least the hardware in the system will have a very long service life.

FWIW,
Ron

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Jim Stone <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > > guests to use.  Unfortunately, the brakes went out while we were
> driving
> it
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

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From: "Karl Vacek" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 09:50:09 -0500

Our '89 Grand Caravan blew a front hose at about 21/2 years old.  Only a
12/12 warrantee of course.  I replaced all 3 hoses.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne

[email-masked]

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From: John Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 07:58:23 -0700

>> Sometimes this doesn't work either, if they're really stuck.

Soak them in PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench, or equivalent an hour or two 
before you try wrenching on them.

You can try an open-end wrench, but watch the nut carefully for:

a) Signs of rounding off (stop BEFORE you cause real damage to the nut)
b) Signs that the tube is corroded in the nut and is twisting with it

If a good tube-nut wrench is unobtanium where you're at...I won't 
recommend this for everyone, but I've had very good luck with vise-grips 
(preferably the kind with concave jaws) on tube nuts.

You will probably mangle the hex on the nut a bit this way, but it's 
important NOT to squeeze them down on the nut so tightly that it crushes 
the nut on the tube or deforms the nut where it seats on the tube.

If the tube is rusted inside the tube nut and the nut will not turn on 
the tube, and you can't get it to loosen with a little gentle 
backing-and-forthing, you're probably screwed - at best you'll have to 
cut the end off the tube and re-flare it with a new tube nut, at worst 
you'll have to replace the line.   Even if it does come off, check the 
condition of everything carefully once it's loose.

> fix it after being told "it's a known issue".

Oh yeah, brake hard-lines rust.  It used to be as normal as the rest of 
the car rusting away, but then cars don't rust as fast as they used to 
so...

John.

[email-masked]

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From: John Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 08:25:35 -0700

On 8/6/2012 7:46 AM, Ronnie Day wrote:
> usually even better for performance and longevity.

The standard line on braided stainless hoses (which are really a teflon 
tube inside the braid) is that they don't 'bulge' as much as rubber 
hoses (which have a pile of reinforcing cord inside the rubber...)

That may be true, but (a) unless wrapped in some kind of protective 
covering, dirt and other abrasive crud can work its way through the 
braid down to the teflon and chew it up and (b) the teflon is sensitive 
to kinking, once it's kinked it's permanently weakened.  For this and 
other reasons 'traditional' field-assembled -3 AN Teflon hose and 
fittings are not DOT-approved, and manufactured assemblies have to 
provide enough strain-relief around the ends to prevent the hose from 
kinking.

For the most part, they're not really worth the hassle on a daily-driver 
IMO.

> is at least the hardware in the system will have a very long service life.

A very valid point.  I don't think regular flushing (which at least as 
of the last time I looked was still a 2-year service item on the BMW 
service list, and I think most other Germans as well...) will do much 
for hose life, but it'll definitely help everything else, as well as 
giving you a reason to get in there and look at the condition of all the 
stuff.

I don't do it rigidly per the 2-year schedule, I do it when I change 
pads and/or rotors, which usually works out to just a little more than 
that.

John.

[email-masked]

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From: Ian McFetridge <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 11:28:24 -0400

Our '04 4Runner is on the original lines at 120k miles...but they look like
a corroded mess and one of the front calipers seized at 99k miles.  So far
the caliper is the only failure to date, so not much to complain about.

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Karl Vacek <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Our '89 Grand Caravan blew a front hose at about 2 1/2 years old.  Only a
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/[email-masked]

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From: "Peter J. Thomas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 11:35:32 -0400

> myself would give us the car to use while we are vacationing and be a nice way

If your not sure of yourself and this is a safety issue on vehicle 
that's not yours, I'd take to a mechanic.

[email-masked]

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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 11:39:01 -0700

> the teflon is sensitive
> to kinking, once it's kinked it's permanently weakened.

True enough, but very unlikely to happen when properly installed in normal
service.  The issue was a DOT "whip test" where they anchored the line only
by one fitting and snapped it back and forth; not at all representative of
normal service.  Of course you have to be sure they can't be pulled tight at
the extremes of steering and suspension movement, but that is an issue with
any brake line.

At any rate, I've been running Teflon/braided stainless lines on several
different cars since around 1990, and I have never had any sort of failure
with them.  The improvement in pedal "feel" was not huge, but I could tell
the difference.  It just about compensates for the slightly softer pedal
caused by using DOT 5 brake fluid.  (Which also conveniently ducks the
requirement for periodic changes.)

I would seriously consider them for any application where the OE hoses
failed in less than 20 years.  That kind of failure on an 8 or 9 year old
vehicle is simply inexcusable IMO, and worthy of a report to the NHTSA.  If
you call up the local Ford dealer and suggest that, I suspect they would be
willing to replace all 3 or 4 hoses, quickly and free of charge.  There may
even be a "silent warranty" in place.

-- Randall 

[email-masked]

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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 11:49:19 -0700

> How long would you expect a brake hose to last?

Only anecdotal evidence, but I have never had a brake hose fail that was
less than 30 years old.  My 80 Chevy was still wearing original hoses when
scrapped in 2005; 95 Buick still wearing original hoses today.  Both
had/have over 250,000 miles.

Rear hose on my 59 Triumph failed around 1992 as I recall, but only
internally.  (I only installed the teflon lines on the front, never got
around to doing the rear until after it failed and held the brakes on.)  It
still did not leak fluid.  Not sure how many miles, but over 200,000.  I
forget the details, but the daughter is driving an early 90s Camry still
with original hoses and well over 200,000 on the clock.

But they don't salt the roads around here, and that may make a difference.
There was an SAE paper that showed salt/chloride would penetrate through the
hoses and I'm guessing it might have had some aging effect.

-- Randall 

[email-masked]

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From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 15:19:26 -0400

On 8/6/2012 10:58 AM, John Miller wrote:
> recommend this for everyone, but I've had very good luck with 
> vise-grips (preferably the kind with concave jaws) on tube nuts.
>
> important NOT to squeeze them down on the nut so tightly that it 
> crushes the nut on the tube or deforms the nut where it seats on the tube.

Man, I wish I was one of those guys that could remove something with 
Vice Grips and re-use it. By the time I have to use Vice Grips on a nut, 
I can get it off...but Vice Grips will be the only tool you could ever 
use to get the thing back on after that. And even that's iffy after I'm 
done with it.
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

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From: Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 15:22:04 -0400

Wow. I flush my cars every year, and I invariably manage to wish I 
hadn't because apparently I suck at bleeding. I had to take a Toyota to 
a shop once afterwards to get rid of the spongy pedal feel.

Sigh.

On 8/6/2012 11:25 AM, John Miller wrote:
> giving you a reason to get in there and look at the condition of all 
> the stuff.
>

[email-masked]

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From: Wayne <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 17:15:01 -0400

On 8/6/2012 8:42 AM, Paul Parkanzky [and others] wrote:
> It wasn't long ago that we expected an eight or nine year old vehicle to
> be held together by hope and zip ties.  Now, a piece fails and you're
> ready to call the lawyers?  Cars have come a long way in the last 25
> years or so.  I don't know if I can say the same about society.

Sorry if I hit a nerve with some of you. I despise litigious jerks and 
ambulance chasing lawyers as much as anyone. I know a lot of you are 
into 1950s-ish LBCs and such. If that's your choice, fine. But all bets 
and expectations are off on reliability in that case.

Major failure of a safety critical part on a sub-ten year old mainstream 
21st century vehicle is unacceptable. Unless it somehow has crazy high 
miles, or has been abused. I consider a brake line to wear with age, 
rather than mileage, but maybe I'm wrong on that.

I'm 45. Growing up in the 1970s, I remember cars commonly broken down on 
the side of the highway, frequent tune-ups required, and it was 
impressive if you car made it past 100k miles. Now a days synthetic 
rubber technology has made belt and hose failure nearly unheard of, and 
spark plugs go 100K.

 > Wow.  Who knew Ford was the only auto company on the planet that
 > had an issue with parts almost certainly supplied by a third-party
 > manufacturer who likely sold similar--if not the same--parts to GM, > 
 > Chrysler and quite possibly some of the 'foreign' brands.

Worked at one of those suppliers for nearly ten years (we did jet engine 
and military stuff, too) and have family at Dana and Faurecia. ZERO 
defects per million parts is DEMANDED. We had Delphi in Dayton OH call 
us up one day bitching our parts were out of tolerance, the line was 
shut down, and we were going to be slapped with huge costs. Turned out 
their AC had failed in the place, it was 90 degrees inside, and that was 
enough to expand the parts (ball joint receptacles) out of spec'.

 > How long would you expect a brake hose to last?

20+ years. They have on all my cars that age. Though I inspect them more 
frequently.

-Peace!  Wayne

[email-masked]

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From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 20:19:02 -0500

> Sorry if I hit a nerve with some of you. I despise litigious jerks and
ambulance chasing lawyers as much as anyone. I know a lot of you are into
1950s-ish LBCs and such. If that's your choice, fine. But all bets and
expectations are off on reliability in that case.
> Major failure of a safety critical part on a sub-ten year old mainstream
21st century vehicle is unacceptable. Unless it somehow has crazy high miles,
or has been abused. I consider a brake line to wear with age, rather than
mileage, but maybe I'm wrong on that.

Age is the big factor but salt can kill these right quick. So if it's parked
at a salt beach I'm not shocked at the failure. The other thing that kills
these is mechanical damage.  A bit of off roading, or changes to the
suspension, can easily be at fault.

I can't speculate w/o knowing the history and seeing the hose.
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

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From: Jim Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 21:10:51 -0500

Just to close the loop on this part of the discussion, the truck does
currently live near the beach (eastern Long Island) but spent most of
its life fairly landlocked in Westchester County, but was near the water many,
many weekends, so salt air could be a factor. I doubt the car
was ever taken off road, but it did see its share of snow.  It is only an
occasional use vehicle now, but that is a recent development.

I had it
towed to the dealer today and asked them to inspect the other lines; I
should know more about that tomorrow.  I suggested that 7 years wasn't
very long for a hydraulic hose to last and the service guy fell back on
'whoever last worked on the brakes may have damaged them'.  Not being my
 car, there is not much I can do about that.

> From: [email-masked]
> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 20:19:02 -0500
> To: [email-masked]
> CC: [email-masked]
miles,

[email-masked]

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From: Mark Andy <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 09:54:36 -0400 (EDT)

Howdy,

On Mon, 6 Aug 2012, Ronnie Day wrote:
> OE parts are always a good bet, but can usually be bought much cheaper 
> from sources other than a dealer. That said, braided stainless 
> replacements are usually even better for performance and longevity.

I agree that OE parts are a good bet and that they can usually be bought 
cheaper from places other than the local dealer.

But I'm going to disagree pretty strongly on the SS brake lines 
recommendation.  SS lines have the following problems, for me:

* Not as durable as OE.  They're more prone to kinking and are likely to 
get crap stuck in the braid that then wears away at the inner lining.

* Varying quality.  This comes in the form of fitment issues for your 
particular application, assembly issues, rusting issues, etc.

* PITA.  If you have to replace the brake lines anyway then this goes 
away, but generally speaking people are doing this as an upgrade. 
Changing brake lines "just because" is annoying.

Coupled with that, modern cars these days don't see any performance 
improvement from brake lines.  OE lines are well engineered, work well, 
and by now have been that way for a long time.

Anyway, the biggest one of all of those for me is the varying quality 
stuff.  Its not hard to find stories / pictures of SS lines that have 
failed catastrophically in a performance / well maintained setting.  I 
don't recall EVER hearing of an OE brake line that's failed in the same 
scenario.  Which, to me, isn't all that surprising.  OE's have a LOT to 
lose if they poorly engineer brake lines.  Extremely small performance 
parts manufacturers (usually with explict "not for highway use" 
disclaimers) don't have anything like the same motivation.

But as always, YMMV.

Mark

[email-masked]

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From: PJ McGarvey <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 22:30:39 -0400

> cheaper from places other than the local dealer.

Same. you very rarely go wrong with OE in this situation.

> get crap stuck in the braid that then wears away at the inner lining.

A good quality line will have an outer plastic covering to to prevent dirt
getting into the braids, and help keep it clean looking too.  Just checked and
-3 AN Teflon has  a 2" bend radius, so it seems like it would be hard to
seriously kink a line unless you really f'd up the install and didn't put any
thought into wheel movement up/down left/right.  I'm sure many an "enthusiast"
has done this.

> particular application, assembly issues, rusting issues, etc.

Again, don't skimp on cheap parts for your brakes.  There are good names out
there that I would trust.  I would also stay away from any lines that are
*not* DOT approved.

> Changing brake lines "just because" is annoying.
Found this article somewhat helpful, as it seems there is a small advantage to
using braided lines, however they don't take into account heat building up in
the fluid or line itself, or it's effect on pedal travel for the driver...
sort of begs for a real world test...  (great site by the way, I've spent the
last year or so slowly picking over their archives...)
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2679/article.html
> improvement from brake lines.  OE lines are well engineered, work well, >
> disclaimers) don't have anything like the same motivation.

I've not looked extensively, but I'd be curious to hear about any stories of
failures (my guess is they are all poor quality lines, or improper
installations to blame).  I've had braided lines on all my cars, which have
all done duty as autocrossers and track day cars for some part of their life.
No issues I've had, seen or heard of.
Also looking for evidence of OEMs using braided lines on their product lines,
though I'm guess probably only the high performance cars might get them, if
anything.

[email-masked]