Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder

From: "Gerald Brazil" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 15:22:34 -0400

A nice project for an amateur machinist but while you are working on it
order a new one because your chances of getting it right on the first try
are slim. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of [email-masked]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:03 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder

I intend to try doing my own resleeving job on the clutch MC for my 56
Triumph TR3.  Yes, I know I could send it out, but where's the fun in that?
The old one is in decent shape overall, but the bore is worn some .045"
oversize and the seal won't hold against such a big gap.

My thought is to stand the aluminum cylinder up in the vertical mill,
supported by big standoffs from the table to the cylinder mounting ears,
bore the cylinder to .001" smaller than the od of some thinwall brass tubing
with a suitable id, then use a mandrel to press the tubing into place with a
few drops of Loctite for good measure.  With any luck the brass tubing won't
crush enough to need adjustment, but if it comes out too small, I'll ream or
hone it to size.

Any thoughts on easier, better ways to do this?

Looks like I'll have to first make my own B&S #7 tail for a (new) boring
head.  Any advice on that process would be welcome as well.  

My thought is to mount some 12L14 in the 3-jaw; center drill and use a live
center to support it while I machine the taper & threads for the boring head
without moving it in the chuck, then drill & tap for the drawbar with the
outer end unsupported.  That should leave the taper & head mount perfectly
concentric; I don't really care if the drawbar hole is a bit off.

I'm a rank amateur machinist, so any words of wisdom will be welcome.

--- Randall
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From: "Jack Brooks" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 21:09:26 -0700

Randall, 

You have a handle on the sizing, but assemble it just like installing the
Throw Out bearing in your tranny.  Put the cylinder in the oven and the
sleeve in the freezer.  When the temperatures stabilize slip that tube right
into place.  Pressing thin wall tube with that L/D will likely destroy the
sleeve.  

While I can't say for sure, I seriously doubt there is any need for
locktite, as the only load on the cylinder trying to push the sleeve out is
the friction of the seal as it slides along the tube, but that is
counteracted by the load the pressure puts radially outward into the MC.

If it works, let me know.  I have two of those on the shelf, but like you (I
suspect) I carry a good one in the boot at all times, since the MC is the
same for the clutch as it is for the single MC, single circuit brake system.

Later,

Jack
TR's 3&8

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of [email-masked]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 12:03 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder

--- Randall

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From: Wayne <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:02:02 -0400

Randall, et al:
How do you keep an old car like that going? Some stuff you're obviously 
gonna have to fab' or improvise. I guess it depends on how determined 
you are to keep it original. It seems like other enthusiasts would have 
figured something like "oh! just go to AutoZone and score the M.C. for a 
{insert modern car here}; it's practically a drop-in with just a little 
line bending."

Would it possibly be easier to over-bore the cylinder, and fabricate a 
matching piston & rod assy?

-Wayne

[email-masked]

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From: Dave Caroline <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 16:19:37 +0100

On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Wayne <[email-masked]> wrote:
> gonna have to fab' or improvise. I guess it depends on how determined you
> are to keep it original. It seems like other enthusiasts would have figured
> something like "oh! just go to AutoZone and score the M.C. for a {insert
> modern car here}; it's practically a drop-in with just a little line
> bending."
>

or some remanufacturing guy makes something special for you so you can
keep the original as a spare or part of the items history and use a
pattern part which takes the everyday wear.
people like me take drawings or better still the original parts and
what they mount on and remake a pattern part.

I make little gears and similar for people
http://gears.archivist.info/

Dave Caroline

[email-masked]

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From: Pat Horne <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:05:48 -0500

Dave,

Very impressive work! I knew this kind of work must be being done, but I 
have never actually paid much attention to it. Keep up the good work, 
Thanks for the posting

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Dave Caroline, On 8/30/2012 10:19 AM:
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-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
[email-masked]	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --
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From: Neil Sherry <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 19:22:34 +0100

Not that difficult - I sleeved the main cylinder bore of a brake servo - 
steel sleeve into an ally alloy casting. Made the sleeve a close slide 
fit, held with Loctite, but it couldn't go anywhere as it was trapped in 
place once the servo was assembled. The one thing I did do was to get it 
honed before sliding it in - so that it was easy to hone all the way to 
the end.

Making a new oversized piston is probably not a good idea - the larger 
bore would mess up the throw of the slave cylinder. Certainly could be 
overcome, but I think it would be easy to make a straight sleeve anyway.

Neil

On 29/08/2012 20:22, Gerald Brazil wrote:
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From: "Jack Brooks" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:55:25 -0700

Good info Karl.  I'm really surprised as the only place the hydraulic
pressure is acting in only one longitudinal direction is on one end of the
sleeve and that is a miniscule area. White post would know though.  I like
their work the best for cylinders, but I like these guys 
http://www.worldwideimportautoparts.com , for lever shocks.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Vacek [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:47 AM
To: 'Jack Brooks'; 'Shop Talk'
Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder

A few years ago I wanted to have some cylinders sleeved and I called White
Post.  When I asked why they used brass instead of stainless sleeves, they
told me that with differential expansion stainless sleeves sometimes slid
out when hot, even when assembled using the hot cylinder/cold sleeve method.
The force that makes the cylinders slide out is hydraulic pressure rather
than friction.  Probably not going to happen with a single-ended wheel
cylinder, but a master cylinder or single-ended wheel cylinder could.

I'm plating up the insides of my MGTC wheel cylinders rather than sleeving
them.  All I need to do is fill in the pitting, and the Eastwood plating kit
is doing a fine job, building up plating reasonably fast and it's easy to
smooth out.  I've just gotta have some time to finish them.
Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Brooks
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
<snip>

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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:04:08 -0700

> http://gears.archivist.info/

Very nice, Dave!

Clock repair is another area I'd like to get into, someday.  I don't have
anything valuable yet, but there are several cuckoo clocks hanging around
here that I'd like to hear cuckoo again.  Might even teach the grandkids how
to tell time <g>

-- Randall

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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:14:42 -0700

Thanks for the thoughts, Jack.

> but like you (I
> suspect) I carry a good one in the boot at all times

Actually, I don't.  In over 30 years and 300,000 miles in a succession of
TR3s, this is the first time I have ever had a sudden MC failure.  And even
this time it wasn't really all that sudden, I just happened to look down and
see the puddle of DOT 5 on the floor mat before I drove to work.  The clutch
still worked.

-- Randall  

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