Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:36:17 -0500

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I recall back in the =E2=80=9880s people saying exactly the same thing =
about the EFI and fuel injection that started showing up in new cars. =
They would say these cars can=E2=80=99t be fixed, modified, hopped up, =
whatever due to the complex electronics.

The kids of today will find a way. It=E2=80=99s a different skillset to =
be a =E2=80=9Ctuner=E2=80=9D, or replace the engine management system on =
a modern engine with something aftermarket, but folks are still doing =
it. And they will find a way in the future.

=20

=20

Steve West-Fisher

N4IK

=20

From: Mgs <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of Richard Lindsay
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2022 6:54 AM
To: MGs <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns

=20

Hello MG friends,

   I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood =
called 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs =
ranging from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all =
dominating the collection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate =
about 30 or so cars in total were on display.

   Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, =
and another a worrisome trend.

   Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired =
old men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is obvious =
that our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That's just =
fine because retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby. But =
where are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we =
fade away? And what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars =
left languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage.=20

   Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars =
are being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular =
but so many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer =
cars can be restored?

   I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN =
buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. Most =
of the repair parts for that car are still available, if at =
better-than-gold prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, =
and restore serial computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW, a =
CAN bus is a serial computer network not terribly unlike the old strings =
of Christmas lights where if one lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, =
except in the XK8, if one component like the transmission reverse safety =
switch goes out, the whole network goes down. Everything from the engine =
to the seat position computers! And do you think Jaguar sells the =
diagnostic tool to find the 'burned out bulb'? Yea right.

   My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point =
that modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just =
aren't really restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of =
potential enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. =
And in the extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a =
400 volt electric car? Yikes.=20

   So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all =
the old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My =
wife says that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I =
also think we should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, =
especially kids. Car shows and tech sessions help with that. Not only =
might that exposure help to preserve our cars, maybe, but also there's =
lots to learn pulling spanners that wiggling an X-Box controller just =
can't teach! There is a kind of perverse value in 'busted knuckles'.

   As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can handle =
a Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the cars too =
but 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now.

=20

Yes, YMMV,

=20

Rick

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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>I recall back in the =
=E2=80=9880s people saying exactly the same thing about the EFI and fuel =
injection that started showing up in new cars. They would say these cars =
can=E2=80=99t be fixed, modified, hopped up, whatever due to the complex =
electronics.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The kids of today will =
find a way. It=E2=80=99s a different skillset to be a =
=E2=80=9Ctuner=E2=80=9D, or replace the engine management system on a =
modern engine with something aftermarket, but folks are still doing it. =
And they will find a way in the future.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid =
windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'border:none;padding:0in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Steve West-Fisher<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>N4IK<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Mgs =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard =
Lindsay<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 15, 2022 6:54 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
MGs &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> [Mgs] Diminishing =
returns<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hello =
MG friends,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;I =
recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood called =
'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging =
from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the =
collection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so =
cars in total were on display.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;Two issues came to mind, one obvious from =
talking with the owners, and another a worrisome =
trend.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray =
haired old men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is =
obvious that our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. =
That's just fine because retired people have more free time to pursue =
the hobby. But where are the younger people? Will there be replacements =
for us as we fade away? And what will happen to our cars? I already see =
too many cars left&nbsp;languishing or worse, decaying in garages and =
storage.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars =
are being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular =
but so many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer =
cars can be restored?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 =
because it had a failed CAN buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and =
emissions inspection. Most of the repair parts for that car are still =
available, if at better-than-gold prices, but how many hobbyists can =
diagnose, repair, and restore serial computer networks like the Jaguar's =
CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial computer network not terribly =
unlike the old strings of Christmas lights where if one lamp goes out, =
they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if one component like the =
transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the whole network goes =
down. Everything from the engine to the seat position computers! And do =
you think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the 'burned out =
bulb'? Yea right.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point =
that modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just =
aren't really restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of =
potential enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. =
And in the extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a =
400 volt electric car? Yikes.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;So what should we do? Well, first of all =
I think we should save all the old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't =
we already do that?! My wife says that, &quot;I never met an 'old junk =
car' that I didn't love!&quot; I also think we should introduce our cars =
and our hobby to younger people, especially kids. Car shows and tech =
sessions help with that. Not only might that exposure help to preserve =
our cars, maybe, but also there's lots to learn pulling spanners that =
wiggling an X-Box controller just can't teach! There is a kind of =
perverse value in 'busted knuckles'.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves =
my old cars and he can handle a Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My =
granddaughter likes the cars too but 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, =
for now.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Yes, YMMV,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Rick<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>
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[email-masked]

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

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From: Richard Lindsay <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 06:53:42 -0600

--===============0115585144559709292==

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   I hope you're right Steve, but I might add that 'finding a way' and
'modifying' isn't really 'restoring'. Also, at least here in Texas,
touching anything on a car that might affect emissions is illegal. Taken to
the extreme, just changing an air filter might be considered 'illegal'. And
all cars younger than 25 years have to pass inspection. That means the
OBDII has to verify that the car is still clean and safe. One can't
register a car in Texas with a failed inspection.
   I'm sorry to sound negative and defeatist. I have just had a couple of
bad experiences. One from the inability to source a NLA mass air sensor for
a Mondial T, and the other, the CAN buss in the XK8. Both of these issues
were solvable but at terrible expense and arguably  difficult in the home
garage.
   I should add that I do have more modern cars that I maintain at home
(illegally?): an '84 BMW 633CSi and a '91 M-B 300SL. Both with manual
gearboxes. Parts for these cars are readily available since they are shared
with other models in their makers' lines.

Rick
WD4KIB

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 6:36 AM [email-masked] <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> I recall back in the =E2=80=9880s people saying exactly the same thing ab=
out the
> EFI and fuel injection that started showing up in new cars. They would sa=
y
> these cars can=E2=80=99t be fixed, modified, hopped up, whatever due to t=
he complex
> electronics.
>
> The kids of today will find a way. It=E2=80=99s a different skillset to b=
e a
> =E2=80=9Ctuner=E2=80=9D, or replace the engine management system on a mod=
ern engine with
> something aftermarket, but folks are still doing it. And they will find a
> way in the future.
>
>
>
>
>
> Steve West-Fisher
>
> N4IK
>
>
>
> *From:* Mgs <[email-masked]> *On Behalf Of *Richard Lindsay
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2022 6:54 AM
> *To:* MGs <[email-masked]>
> *Subject:* [Mgs] Diminishing returns
>
>
>
> Hello MG friends,
>
>    I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood called
> 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging
> from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the
> collection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so
> cars in total were on display.
>
>    Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, and
> another a worrisome trend.
>
>    Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired ol=
d
> men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is obvious that
> our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That's just fine
> because retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby. But where
> are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we fade away=
?
> And what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars
> left languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage.
>
>    Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars are
> being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular but so
> many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer cars can be
> restored?
>
>    I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN
> buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. Most o=
f
> the repair parts for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold
> prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial
> computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial
> computer network not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights
> where if one lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if
> one component like the transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the
> whole network goes down. Everything from the engine to the seat position
> computers! And do you think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the
> 'burned out bulb'? Yea right.
>
>    My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point tha=
t
> modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just aren't real=
ly
> restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of potential
> enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in the
> extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a 400 volt
> electric car? Yikes.
>
>    So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all th=
e
> old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My wife sa=
ys
> that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I also think we
> should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, especially kid=
s.
> Car shows and tech sessions help with that. Not only might that exposure
> help to preserve our cars, maybe, but also there's lots to learn pulling
> spanners that wiggling an X-Box controller just can't teach! There is a
> kind of perverse value in 'busted knuckles'.
>
a
> Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the cars too but
> 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now.
>
>
>
> Yes, YMMV,
>
>
>
> Rick
>

--0000000000002f7be305ed81d9e1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0I hope you&#39;re right Steve, but I mi=
ght add that &#39;finding a way&#39; and &#39;modifying&#39; isn&#39;t real=
ly &#39;restoring&#39;. Also, at least here in Texas, touching anything on =
a car that might affect emissions is illegal. Taken to the extreme, just ch=
anging an air filter might be considered &#39;illegal&#39;. And all cars yo=
unger than 25 years have to pass inspection. That means the OBDII has to ve=
rify that the car is still clean and safe. One can&#39;t register a car in =
Texas with a failed inspection.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I&#39;m=
 sorry to sound negative and defeatist. I have just had a couple of bad exp=
eriences. One from the inability to source a NLA mass air sensor for a Mond=
ial T, and the other, the CAN buss in the XK8. Both of these issues were so=
lvable but at terrible expense and arguably=C2=A0 difficult in the home gar=
age.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I should add that I do have more m=
odern cars that I maintain at home (illegally?): an &#39;84 BMW 633CSi and =
a &#39;91 M-B 300SL. Both with manual gearboxes. Parts for these cars are r=
eadily available since they are shared with other models in their makers&#3=
9; lines.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Rick</div><div=
 dir=3D"auto">WD4KIB</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote" =
dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 6:=
36 AM <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">steve@coastaldatasyst=
ems.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">swest=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D"w=
ord-wrap:break-word"><div class=3D"m_-8501750994170398879WordSection1"><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">I recall back in the =E2=80=9880s people saying exactly =
the same thing about the EFI and fuel injection that started showing up in =
new cars. They would say these cars can=E2=80=99t be fixed, modified, hoppe=
d up, whatever due to the complex electronics.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">The kids of today will find a way. It=E2=80=99s a different ski=
llset to be a =E2=80=9Ctuner=E2=80=9D, or replace the engine management sys=
tem on a modern engine with something aftermarket, but folks are still doin=
g it. And they will find a way in the future.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:=
solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"border:none;padding:0in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">Steve West-Fisher<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">N4IK<u>=
</u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div style=3D=
"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Mgs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mgs-bounces@autox=
.team.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email-masked]<=
/a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Lindsay<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, Novemb=
er 15, 2022 6:54 AM<br><b>To:</b> MGs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked].=
net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br><b>=
Subject:</b> [Mgs] Diminishing returns<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello MG frie=
nds,<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I recently a=
ttended an &#39;All British Car Show&#39; in a neighborhood called &#39;The=
 Woodlands&#39;, here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging fr=
om a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the collect=
ion of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so cars in to=
tal were on display.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners=
, and another a worrisome trend.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers we=
re gray haired old men. Now, I won&#39;t make any gender related comments b=
ut it is obvious that our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people.=
 That&#39;s just fine because retired people have more free time to pursue =
the hobby. But where are the younger people? Will there be replacements for=
 us as we fade away? And what will happen to our cars? I already see too ma=
ny cars left=C2=A0languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Secondl=
y, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars are being resto=
red today? Sixties &#39;muscle cars&#39; may always be popular but so many =
of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer cars can be restor=
ed?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I recen=
tly gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN buss, and ther=
efore couldn&#39;t pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of the repair=
 parts for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold prices, but=
 how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial computer netwo=
rks like the Jaguar&#39;s CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial computer ne=
twork not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights where if one =
lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if one component l=
ike the transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the whole network goes=
 down. Everything from the engine to the seat position computers! And do yo=
u think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the &#39;burned out bulb&#=
39;? Yea right.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0My point isn&#39;t to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it&#39;s to make the =
point that modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just ar=
en&#39;t really restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of p=
otential enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in=
 the extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a 400 volt el=
ectric car? Yikes.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should sa=
ve all the old British cars that we can. Wait! Don&#39;t we already do that=
?! My wife says that, &quot;I never met an &#39;old junk car&#39; that I di=
dn&#39;t love!&quot; I also think we should introduce our cars and our hobb=
y to younger people, especially kids. Car shows and tech sessions help with=
 that. Not only might that exposure help to preserve our cars, maybe, but a=
lso there&#39;s lots to learn pulling spanners that wiggling an X-Box contr=
oller just can&#39;t teach! There is a kind of perverse value in &#39;buste=
d knuckles&#39;.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0As we say, &#39;YMMV&#39; but my grandson loves my old cars and he ca=
n handle a Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the car=
s too but &#39;My Little Ponies&#39; are more fun, for now.<u></u><u></u></=
p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">Yes, YMMV,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Rick<u></u>=
<u></u></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div>

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[email-masked]

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---

From: Dan DiBiase <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:58:47 -0500

--===============8656298220634021914==

--000000000000d8c00b05ed81ec46

Hi, Rick. Regarding your first point, I have 2 comments - people tend to be
interested in the cars of their youth, so for many of a slightly older
generation than us (I am 64) that would mean cars from the '40's and '50's.
I've been to hot rod shows locally where many of the owners are in their
late 60's and '70's. I guess many of us around my age saw these little
British cars putting around in the '60's when we were kids and that kindled
our interest (I had a friend growing up whose Dad had an MGB-GT). I have a
nephew who is big into cars and he and his friends are into '80's cars like
BMW's and MR2's (he and his dad, my cousin, actually own several '80's BW's
and a first-gen MR2). So, while I wouldn't say the current generation isn't
into cars, it's just not the cars we like. And of course, current mod
trends include things like air bagging cars so they can be lowered to
within an inch of the pavement, negative camber wheels, loud farty
exhausts, crazy lights, etc. It;'s not what we like, but that's probably
part of the point...

Dan D
'76 MGB
Central NJ USA

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 7:01 AM Richard Lindsay <[email-masked]>
wrote:

>    Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired old
> are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we fade away?
> buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of
>    My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point that
> modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just aren't really
>    So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all the
> old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My wife says
> should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, especially kids.
>    As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can handle a
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/[email-masked]
>

--000000000000d8c00b05ed81ec46
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi, Rick. Regarding your first=C2=A0point, I have 2 commen=
ts - people tend to be interested in the cars of their youth, so for many o=
f a slightly older generation than us (I am 64) that would mean=C2=A0cars f=
rom the &#39;40&#39;s and &#39;50&#39;s. I&#39;ve been to hot rod shows loc=
ally where many of the owners are in their late 60&#39;s and &#39;70&#39;s.=
 I guess many of us around my age saw these little British cars putting=C2=
=A0around in the &#39;60&#39;s when we were kids and that kindled our inter=
est (I had a friend growing up whose=C2=A0Dad had an MGB-GT). I have a neph=
ew who is big into cars and he and his friends=C2=A0are into &#39;80&#39;s =
cars like BMW&#39;s and MR2&#39;s (he and his dad, my cousin, actually own =
several &#39;80&#39;s BW&#39;s and a first-gen MR2). So, while I wouldn&#39=
;t say the current generation isn&#39;t into cars, it&#39;s just not the ca=
rs we like. And of course, current mod trends include things like air baggi=
ng cars so they can be lowered to within an inch of the pavement, negative =
camber wheels, loud farty exhausts, crazy lights, etc. It;&#39;s not what w=
e like, but that&#39;s probably part of the point...<div><br></div><div>Dan=
 D</div><div>&#39;76 MGB</div><div>Central NJ USA</div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 15, 2022=
 at 7:01 AM Richard Lindsay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Hello MG friends,<div dir=3D"a=
uto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I recently attended an &#39;All British Car Show&#39; in =
a neighborhood called &#39;The Woodlands&#39;, here in South Texas. It was =
a fun show with MGs ranging from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Toure=
rs, all dominating the collection of British marques. Just guessing, I esti=
mate about 30 or so cars in total were on display.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the own=
ers, and another a worrisome trend.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Fir=
stly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired old men. N=
ow, I won&#39;t make any gender related comments but it is obvious that our=
 hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That&#39;s just fine bec=
ause retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby. But where are =
the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we fade away? And =
what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars left=C2=A0languis=
hing or worse, decaying in garages and storage.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto=
">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. Wha=
t cars are being restored today? Sixties &#39;muscle cars&#39; may always b=
e popular but so many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what ne=
wer cars can be restored?</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I recently ga=
ve away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN buss, and therefore =
couldn&#39;t pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of the repair parts=
 for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold prices, but how m=
any hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial computer networks li=
ke the Jaguar&#39;s CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial computer network =
not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights where if one lamp g=
oes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if one component like th=
e transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the whole network goes down.=
 Everything from the engine to the seat position computers! And do you thin=
k Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the &#39;burned out bulb&#39;? Y=
ea right.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0My point isn&#39;t to critici=
ze Jaguar. Rather, it&#39;s to make the point that modern cars, especially =
the interesting and exotic ones, just aren&#39;t really restorable - not by=
 hobbyists like the next generation of potential enthusiasts (or us?!). So =
is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in the extreme, do you want your gran=
dson attempting to restore a 400 volt electric car? Yikes.=C2=A0</div><div =
dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0So what should we do? Well, first of all I think =
we should save all the old British cars that we can. Wait! Don&#39;t we alr=
eady do that?! My wife says that, &quot;I never met an &#39;old junk car&#3=
9; that I didn&#39;t love!&quot; I also think we should introduce our cars =
and our hobby to younger people, especially kids. Car shows and tech sessio=
ns help with that. Not only might that exposure help to preserve our cars, =
maybe, but also there&#39;s lots to learn pulling spanners that wiggling an=
 X-Box controller just can&#39;t teach! There is a kind of perverse value i=
n &#39;busted knuckles&#39;.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0As we say,=
 &#39;YMMV&#39; but my grandson loves my old cars and he can handle a Whitw=
orth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the cars too but &#39;M=
y Little Ponies&#39; are more fun, for now.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">Yes, YMMV,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">Rick</div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]<=
/a><br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
<br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs</a> <a href=3D"http://au=
tox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.tea=
m.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
Unsubscribe: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/dan.dibia=
[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/ma=
ilman/options/mgs/[email-masked]</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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[email-masked]

--===============8656298220634021914==--

---

From: Richard Lindsay <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:03:33 -0600

--===============4816951180674460589==

--0000000000007050ba05ed81fcae

All true Dan. Thanks. BTW, I'm just a few weeks away from 72.

R.

--0000000000007050ba05ed81fcae

<div dir="auto">All true Dan. Thanks. BTW, I&#39;m just a few weeks away from 72.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">R.</div></div>

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[email-masked]

--===============4816951180674460589==--

---

From: PaulHunt73 <[email-masked]> kwxTGi0k7lGjJoRicrObAd7kGjV4X2vFEQfrcShBXDyV1RiUCgmP7jn9F+1/JW361EplA/v3o9FBz5mJfzH6p3NEen1kmEpQ+Vs=
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 13:18:24 +0000

Not that bad from what I see over here at club runs round the country, 
many younger than my wife and I, some a lot younger - MGB owners at any 
rate.  We have a TV series here 'Bangers and Cash' about an auction 
house in Yorkshire and in the current series it's been mentioned a 
couple of times that the market for pre-war cars is not what it was as 
far as achieved prices go, and the sellers of those ARE more likely to 
be 'grey-haired old men' - or sadly their widows.

On 15/11/2022 11:53, Richard Lindsay wrote:
>    Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired 
> old men.
>

[email-masked]

---

From: Dan DiBiase <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 08:18:39 -0500

--===============1191547345605114036==

--000000000000ec033205ed823382

LOL, nothing personal Rick!

Dan

> All true Dan. Thanks. BTW, I'm just a few weeks away from 72.

--000000000000ec033205ed823382
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<div dir=3D"ltr">LOL, nothing personal Rick!<div><br></div><div>Dan</div></=
div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On=
 Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 8:03 AM Richard Lindsay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richard=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">All true Dan=
. Thanks. BTW, I&#39;m just a few weeks away from 72.<div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">R.</div></div>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000ec033205ed823382--

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[email-masked]

--===============1191547345605114036==--

---

From: Richard Lindsay <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:27:22 -0600

--===============8249747286400748493==

--0000000000008ee2be05ed8251d9

Of course not Dan (and Steve). I just like seeing MG notes arrive in my
inbox once again!

R

> LOL, nothing personal Rick!

--0000000000008ee2be05ed8251d9
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Of course not Dan (and Steve). I just like seeing MG=
 notes arrive in my inbox once again!=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">R<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 7:19 AM Dan DiBiase &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">LOL, nothing=
 personal Rick!<div><br></div><div>Dan</div></div></blockquote></div></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto"></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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[email-masked]

--===============8249747286400748493==--

---

From: Bert Palte <[email-masked]> FX49+2gMfvU0dxOwXr4o1QTgl9NkYDIrQ/RyNUBLe7ncysNc3K6+8ZThSaRXLFCkMkO289X FLTxOra4NXnR3EAhjpQo1qZtqzv6DTOsWLD+KNlx1aQeDextlxX1S6Q13XqavhjxawDJy5+ 88GwRT/ym1na5HKlvdXAA==
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 15:15:25 +0100

I'm not too knowledgeable but my guess is - can't OBD be emulated? 
Think Arduino?

Op 15-11-2022 om 12:53 schreef Richard Lindsay:
> Hello MG friends,
>    I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood
> called 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with
> MGs ranging from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all
> dominating the collection of British marques. Just guessing, I
> estimate about 30 or so cars in total were on display.
>    Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners,
> old men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is
> obvious that our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people.
> That's just fine because retired people have more free time to pursue
> the hobby. But where are the younger people? Will there be
> replacements for us as we fade away? And what will happen to our cars?
> I already see too many cars left languishing or worse, decaying in
> garages and storage.
>    Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars
> are being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular
> but so many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer
> cars can be restored?
> buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection.
> Most of the repair parts for that car are still available, if at
> better-than-gold prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair,
> and restore serial computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW,
> a CAN bus is a serial computer network not terribly unlike the old
> strings of Christmas lights where if one lamp goes out, they all go
> out! Well, except in the XK8, if one component like the transmission
> reverse safety switch goes out, the whole network goes down.
> Everything from the engine to the seat position computers! And do you
> think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the 'burned out bulb'?
> Yea right.
>    My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point
> that modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just
> aren't really restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation
> of potential enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear
> so. And in the extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to
> restore a 400 volt electric car? Yikes.
>    So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all
> the old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My
> wife says that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I
> also think we should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger
> people, especially kids. Car shows and tech sessions help with that.
> Not only might that exposure help to preserve our cars, maybe, but
> also there's lots to learn pulling spanners that wiggling an X-Box
> controller just can't teach! There is a kind of perverse value in
> 'busted knuckles'.
>    As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can
> handle a Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the
> cars too but 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now.
>
> Yes, YMMV,
>
> Rick
>
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/[email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: David Breneman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:10:35 +0000 (UTC)

--===============5424256500703940617==
	boundary="----=_Part_511260_364693767.1668528635817"

------=_Part_511260_364693767.1668528635817
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I have a 2011 Ford Fiesta that I bought as a commuter car (I'd driventhem a=
s rentals a couple times in Europe, and when "European-similar"models [unli=
ke the crummy hard plastic US-spec Focuses] came on themarket I got one).=
=C2=A0 It has been relatively trouble free until last spring,when the trans=
mission control module went out.=C2=A0 $2800.=C2=A0 Two successiveafter-mar=
ket modules lasted less than a week each.=C2=A0 Now the car is=20
sitting, since JUNE, waiting for a real Ford-built module.=C2=A0 Apparently=
Ford is flashing the chips by hand since they are no longer available fromt=
he original source due to Covid supply chain issues.=C2=A0 I just can'tbeli=
eve that any car made in this century, except really high-end carswhich hav=
e a lot of low-volume parts in them anyway, will be able tobe maintained in=
 drivable condition when they are 50 years old.

David Breneman [email-masked]=20

------=_Part_511260_364693767.1668528635817
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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp88900954yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">I have a 2011 Ford Fiesta that I bought as=
 a commuter car (I'd driven</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">the=
m as rentals a couple times in Europe, and when "European-similar"</div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">models [unlike the crummy hard plastic =
US-spec Focuses] came on the</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">ma=
rket I got one).&nbsp; It has been relatively trouble free until last sprin=
g,</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">when the transmission contro=
l module went out.&nbsp; $2800.&nbsp; Two successive</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false">after-market modules lasted less than a week each.&nb=
sp; Now the car is <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">sitting=
, since JUNE, waiting for a real Ford-built module.&nbsp; Apparently</div><=
div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Ford is flashing the chips by hand si=
nce they are no longer available from</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"=
false">the original source due to Covid supply chain issues.&nbsp; I just c=
an't</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">believe that any car made =
in this century, except really high-end cars</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-set=
dir=3D"false">which have a lot of low-volume parts in them anyway, will be =
able to</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">be maintained in drivab=
le condition when they are 50 years old.<br></div><div><br></div><div class=
=3D"ydp88900954signature">David Breneman         [email-masked]</=
div></div>
        <div><br></div><br></div></body></html>
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[email-masked]

--===============5424256500703940617==--

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 11:36:41 -0500

Jaguar does some pretty interesting things - not a classic but my wife has an S-Type that she loves. Tracking down some of the electrical issues has been interesting to say the least.

Steve West-Fisher
N4IK

-----Original Message-----
From: Mgs <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of Bert Palte
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2022 9:15 AM
To: Richard Lindsay <[email-masked]>; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns

I'm not too knowledgeable but my guess is - can't OBD be emulated? Think Arduino?

[email-masked]

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/[email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: i erbs <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 08:41:04 -0800

--===============9027424308472406278==

--0000000000004685d005ed8506b2

I am a retired IT computer teacher at career and technical ed high schools
and community college.. the kids are learning how to fix modern cars with
modern tools. They also build hot rods and restore old cars. We are losing
the crafts people who can work on ols stuff,but new cars are being restored.

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 4:03 AM Richard Lindsay <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/[email-masked]
>

--0000000000004685d005ed8506b2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">I am a retired IT computer teacher at career and technica=
l ed high schools and community college.. the kids are learning how to fix =
modern cars with modern tools. They also build hot rods and restore old car=
s. We are losing the crafts people who can work on ols stuff,but new cars a=
re being restored.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 4:03 AM Richard Lindsay &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Hello MG frie=
nds,<div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I recently attended an &#39;All British =
Car Show&#39; in a neighborhood called &#39;The Woodlands&#39;, here in Sou=
th Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging from a single 1934 PA through =
to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the collection of British marques. Just=
 guessing, I estimate about 30 or so cars in total were on display.</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talk=
ing with the owners, and another a worrisome trend.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray h=
aired old men. Now, I won&#39;t make any gender related comments but it is =
obvious that our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That&#39=
;s just fine because retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby=
. But where are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we=
 fade away? And what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars l=
eft=C2=A0languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage.=C2=A0</div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby=
 in general. What cars are being restored today? Sixties &#39;muscle cars&#=
39; may always be popular but so many of them are resto-mods, not restorati=
ons. But what newer cars can be restored?</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN buss=
, and therefore couldn&#39;t pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of =
the repair parts for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold p=
rices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial comp=
uter networks like the Jaguar&#39;s CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial c=
omputer network not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights whe=
re if one lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if one c=
omponent like the transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the whole ne=
twork goes down. Everything from the engine to the seat position computers!=
 And do you think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the &#39;burned =
out bulb&#39;? Yea right.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0My point isn&=
#39;t to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it&#39;s to make the point that modern c=
ars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just aren&#39;t really res=
torable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of potential enthusiast=
s (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in the extreme, do yo=
u want your grandson attempting to restore a 400 volt electric car? Yikes.=
=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0So what should we do? Well, firs=
t of all I think we should save all the old British cars that we can. Wait!=
 Don&#39;t we already do that?! My wife says that, &quot;I never met an &#3=
9;old junk car&#39; that I didn&#39;t love!&quot; I also think we should in=
troduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, especially kids. Car show=
s and tech sessions help with that. Not only might that exposure help to pr=
eserve our cars, maybe, but also there&#39;s lots to learn pulling spanners=
 that wiggling an X-Box controller just can&#39;t teach! There is a kind of=
 perverse value in &#39;busted knuckles&#39;.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0As we say, &#39;YMMV&#39; but my grandson loves my old cars and he c=
an handle a Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the ca=
rs too but &#39;My Little Ponies&#39; are more fun, for now.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Yes, YMMV,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto">Rick</div></div>
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From: Richard Lindsay <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 15:14:33 -0600

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My observation is quite limited and therefore, biased. I certainly hope I'm
wrong.

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 8:15 AM PaulHunt73 <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/[email-masked]
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">My observation is quite limited and therefore, biased. I c=
ertainly hope I&#39;m wrong.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 8:15 AM PaulHunt73 &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">N=
ot that bad from what I see over here at club runs round the country, <br>
many younger than my wife and I, some a lot younger - MGB owners at any <br=
rate.=C2=A0 We have a TV series here &#39;Bangers and Cash&#39; about an au=
ction <br>
house in Yorkshire and in the current series it&#39;s been mentioned a <br>
couple of times that the market for pre-war cars is not what it was as <br>
far as achieved prices go, and the sellers of those ARE more likely to <br>
be &#39;grey-haired old men&#39; - or sadly their widows.<br>
<br>
On 15/11/2022 11:53, Richard Lindsay wrote:<br>
&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0 Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were g=
ray haired <br>
&gt; old men.<br>
&gt;<br>
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