Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT

From: S and T Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 16:15:40 +0000

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If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations interest=
ing.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine if the 1=
00m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.

It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1 fron=
t brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as the =
later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no evidenc=
e of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount shows non=
-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount=
.

What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays mounted=
 under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to just ma=
ke out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two relays). =
And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with my finger=
s and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4 holes. =
I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes seem as =
they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the single OD =
relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into welded capt=
ive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were used to moun=
t it in what would be a BN2 relay position.

I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping. Origi=
nals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end result.  I=
 took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared identical in t=
he stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that do=
esn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could =
be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 1=
00 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in power, and Mike state=
d that it indeed has that M power.

The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off anothe=
r lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some previou=
s age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any evidenc=
e of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that=
 the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestine. I coul=
dn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for someone else to de=
cide.

Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't hav=
e that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's origi=
nal.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?

I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to try =
and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Anothe=
r interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes where a B=
N1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't rea=
lize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they were eras=
ing evidence of a BN1 chassis?

With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly. T=
he car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps lo=
ok good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all around.=
 I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under his belt, s=
o I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the restoration,  it =
is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were not welded to th=
e frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at a popula=
r vote car would not be an issue.

The Millers

"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test dri=
ve."

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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
</head>
<body>
<div style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; color: inherit; bac=
kground-color: transparent;">
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px">If you were following i=
t recently,&nbsp; you might find my observations interesting.&nbsp; So I we=
nt down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine if the 100m indeed ha=
s a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px"><br style=3D"box-sizing=
: content-box">
</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px">It has the BN1 inner fe=
nders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame moun=
t the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a bolte=
d on bracket. The front shock towers
 have no evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox=
 mount shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommoda=
te the BN2 mount.&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px"><br style=3D"box-sizing=
: content-box">
</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px">What I found most inter=
esting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays mounted under the dash, it too=
k shining a light it different directions to just make out the slight evide=
nce of filled holes (4 of then for
 the two relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that a=
rea with my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fi=
ll those 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make th=
ose holes seem as they never existed.&nbsp;
 Along with that, where a BN2 would have the single OD relay attached to th=
e firewall with machine screws screwed into welded captive nuts on the fire=
wall,&nbsp; you can see plain sheet screws were used to mount it in what wo=
uld be a BN2 relay position.&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px"><br style=3D"box-sizing=
: content-box">
</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px">I also feel the engine =
tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the n=
umbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end result.&nbsp; I took my repo engi=
ne tag along to compare, and they appeared
 identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear origin=
al. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine, becau=
se there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone who =
drove a stock 100 compared to a
 100M can attest to the difference in power, and Mike stated that it indeed=
 has that M power.&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px"><br style=3D"box-sizing=
: content-box">
</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px">The boot lid shows no e=
vidence of the stay bracket being swapped off another lid, and if you look =
closely you can see that the boot shows some previous age/life. I'd believe=
 it to be original. I could not make
 out any evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but=
 I will say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and =
prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for so=
meone else to decide.&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px"><br style=3D"box-sizing=
: content-box">
</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px">Mike had asked me if th=
e cold air box was original,&nbsp; and I simply don't have that experience =
to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's original.&nbsp; It does=
 indeed look to have some age, so?</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px"><br style=3D"box-sizing=
: content-box">
</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px">I feel at some point in=
 this car's life someone went to some effort to try and conceal that these =
100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another interesting note is t=
hat there was an attempt to fill the
 holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the p=
erson didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and though=
t they were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px"><br style=3D"box-sizing=
: content-box">
</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing: content-box; margin: 0px">With all that said, Mik=
e is simply trying to represent the car correctly. The car is a very nice c=
ar! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps look good. Interior is ve=
ry nice, and looks to be a very good
 car all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience u=
nder his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the r=
estoration,&nbsp; it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets =
were not welded to the frame. Chrome
 looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at a popular vote car woul=
d not be an issue.&nbsp;</div>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The Millers<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&quot;Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a tes=
t drive.&quot;<br>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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_______________________________________________

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys

[email-masked]
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys

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---

From: Hank Leach via Healeys <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:35:46 +0000 U+hKd2njpEDyT/P5cJFwGS7gzVC8HKc6uz+eBJqHYF6vMaDQK9bu6qUNx0hPrG68efXgRrgiUvtblN0S7YVWmoJ7CmotnkD893neqNEy6uYSjtZX1/4WkMRJ

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<div>Folks-Austin-Healey Club Pacific Centre/USA has taken on the custodial=
 duties of the 100-M registry from Bill Meade. Stay tuned for details in =
2024. Hank<br>-------------------- <br><br>From: "HealeyRick" =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt; <br>To: "Healeys" &lt;[email-masked].=
net&gt; <br>Sent: Sat, Dec 16 2023 02:06 AM <br>Subject: [Healeys] Fwd: =
Recent 100M on BAT </div>
<div><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr">&nbsp;</div>
<br><br>
<div>Hi Michael,
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I know Bill Meade was trying to include the Registry=
 along with the sale of his M., but the new owner wasn't interested. IMHO, =
more of an ass ache than an asset. Getting someone to take it on might be a=
 problem, but people were able to identify factory Ms before the registry =
and will be able to do so in the future if the registry fades away</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Happy Healeydays,</div>
<div>Rick Neville</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-6362713109296590600DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF=
2"><br>
<table style=3D"border-top: 1px solid #d3d4de;">
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<tr>
<td style=3D"width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a href=3D"https://www.avast.=
com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dlink&amp;utm_campaign=3Ds=
ig-email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener"><img=
 style=3D"width: 46px; height: 29px;" src=3D"https://s-install.avcdn.=
net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1=
.gif" alt=3D"" width=3D"46" height=3D"29"></a></td>
<td style=3D"width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e; font-size: =
13px; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: =
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avast.com</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 =
at 5:16=E2=80=AFPM Michael Salter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michaelsalter@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't =
that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.&nbsp;
<div>If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,=
&nbsp; say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I=
 would consider them be very special.
<div>I understand that Mr Meade has =
now sold his "M" so would not be surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.=
</div>
<div>Just my opinion.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>M</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr">On=
 Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noopener">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left: 1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<pre id=3D"m_-6362713109296590600m_6738733271916364601m_-894806748358762453=
3tw-target-text" style=3D"text-align: left;"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">What makes a 100M? <br>Very=
 good question and not easy to answer.<br><br>In my opinion, an =
Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly =
higher than the normal 100, <br>is a car that any modification reduces its =
value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and =
<br>no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be=
 such a major modification for me, as would a <br>conversion to disc brakes=
 at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be =
simply no longer a <br>Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original =
Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me <br>the =
hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a =
special model with a little more <br>horsepower, but not anything =
particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.=
<br><br>Josef Eckert<br>Germany<br></span></pre>
<p style=3D"margin: =
0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: =
10pt; color: rgb(0,0,0); text-decoration: none;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0,0,0); text-decoration: =
none;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">&nbsp;</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">&nbsp;</p>
<p style=3D"margin: =
0px;">-----Original-Nachricht-----</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">Betreff: =
Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">Datum: =
2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">Von: "Bob Spidell" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noopener">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</p>
<p style=3D"margin: =
0px;">An: "HealeyRick" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">&nbsp;</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">&nbsp;</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">&nbsp;</p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0,0,0); font:=
 12px Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">Note the Registry will also certify 'Le =
Mans Conversions,' which may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted =
you can build a 'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, =
SBC, etc.). <br><br>I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 =
chassis, but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much =
hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2, <em>maybe</em>). The main =
problem I see is an earnest owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit')=
 with full disclosure, but an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag =
has been conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be =
they cars or rock bands).<br><br><br>
<div>On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, =
HealeyRick wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div>This is all hypothesis based on =
speculation so take it with that caveat.&nbsp; Let's say one had a rusty =
factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new frame.&nbsp; How hard would it=
 be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with =
the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M Registry seems to focus mostly =
on the original body parts and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even =
cars with non-original engines have been registered. I'm pretty certain =
Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M?=
&nbsp; Some pretty valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted =
with&nbsp;new chassis and still bring big money at auction.&nbsp;
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.&nbsp; If =
an M no longer has its original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost =
its character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's =
almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an =
Alpine motor. Sure, it's got the right serial number on the unibody, but =
it's not much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be =
non-original carbs and distributor caused me concern. Who would remove =
those from an original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, =
remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see =
if there is still a 100M cam in the lump!</div>
<div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Happy Healeydays,</div>
<div>Rick Neville</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 =
at 1:05=E2=80=AFPM Bob Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>Excellent report, thank you. <br><br>I was one of the commenters on =
BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar=
 with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious differences with my =
car (which was completely original as far as I can tell, except for =
extensive body work). One thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that =
the Registry certified this car, while noting some major anomalies (the =
carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have the hand scribing =
like my car). <br><br>The other thing that interested me is, how do you =
value this car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO,=
 its value <em>should</em> be less than a comparably restored, original BN1=
 or BN2. And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about =
this car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would =
need the proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.=
<br><br>Bob<br><br><br><br>
<div>On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller =
wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-size: =
inherit; color: inherit; background-color: transparent;">
<div>If you were following it recently,&nbsp; you might find my =
observations interesting.&nbsp; So I went down to Michael's motor cars to =
help him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I =
found.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>It has the BN1 inner fenders with the =
rolled pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame mount the is less =
pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a bolted on bracket. =
The front shock towers have no evidence of being replaced and show the =
factory welds. The gearbox mount shows non-original/factory welds as if it =
were replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays =
mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to =
just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two =
relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with =
my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those =
4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes=
 seem as they never existed.&nbsp; Along with that, where a BN2 would have =
the single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed =
into welded captive nuts on the firewall,&nbsp; you can see plain sheet =
screws were used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.=
&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I also feel the engine tag is a repo =
because of the lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/ =
letters stamped with a deeper end result.&nbsp; I took my repo engine tag =
along to compare, and they appeared identical in the stampings. The body/ =
bath tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean that the =
engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could be many reasons why =
the engine tag was replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared to a =
100M can attest to the difference in power, and Mike stated that it indeed =
has that M power.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The boot lid shows no =
evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off another lid, and if you look=
 closely you can see that the boot shows some previous age/life. I'd =
believe it to be original. I could not make out any evidence of the bonnet =
number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the underside =
of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't detect any=
 age like the boot, but that would be for someone else to decide.=
&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Mike had asked me if the cold air box =
was original,&nbsp; and I simply don't have that experience to know. I have=
 anyways heard if it looks old, it's original.&nbsp; It does indeed look to=
 have some age, so?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I feel at some point in =
this car's life someone went to some effort to try and conceal that these =
100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another interesting note is =
that there was an attempt to fill the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is =
fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the holes =
continued over to the BN2's, and thought they were erasing evidence of a =
BN1 chassis?&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>With all that said, Mike is=
 simply trying to represent the car correctly. The car is a very nice car! =
Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps look good. Interior is very =
nice, and looks to be a very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, =
but Mike has years of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his opinions =
on that. With the quality of the restoration,&nbsp; it is surprising that =
the front frame to shroud brackets were not welded to the frame. Chrome =
looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at a popular vote car would=
 not be an issue.&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The Millers<br>&nbsp;<br>"Always drive them, but remember each drive =
in an antique car is a test drive."</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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