Subject: Re: [Healeys] A90 Head Update

From: Alan Seigrist <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:47:25 +0800

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I don't recall what torque they used, but I personally did check the torque
settings after they assembled the engine and I had to refine the torque ...
I think I recall they had torqued varying amounts between 55 and 75 ft lbs,
I topped up the torque to all at 75 ft lbs... so I don't think torque
settings in of themselves was the problem.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:46 AM <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Alan-two questions: do you know if the car overheated at any time after
> the replacement of the head?
>
> Secondly, do you have any idea what torque they used to tighten the head,
> even if they did not go in order?
>
> A couple of us, who have been doing this for awhile, decided on about 80
> FT LBS. as max torque. There is no book spec. That is a spec for that size
> stud and nut. The tightening order in the workshop manual is strictly
> adhered to, and the torque is brought up in 1/3 increments.
>
> Again, I sprayed  both sides of my copper gasket with a light coating of
> Permatex copper seal.
> I used a Payen gasket which was marked top/front. Yea, the good old
> days...Hank
>
> -----------------------------------------
> From: "Alan Seigrist"
> To: "Bob Spidell"
> Cc: "Healey list"
> Sent: Tuesday February 2 2021 6:07:37PM
> Subject: Re: [Healeys] A90 Head Update
>
> Hi Bob -
>
> This gasket was put on the car only about 5K miles ago if you can believe
> it, but the car sat for about 10 years afterwards...  I've checked both the
> head and deck with a rectifier (see pic), both are very nicely flat and do
> not need to go to the machinist.  Both are flat to within 1/1000 on the
> surface... which is less than the error on the rectifier!
>
> I have the previously removed very old copper gasket which I saved and it
> has no signs of gas leaking between cylinders compared to this newer gasket
> that I just removed.  I discovered a few things:
>
>    1. The old gasket is made with better quality, softer copper, and is
>    thicker than the newer gasket that was put on.  The old gasket that showed
>    no problems is 1.8mm thick after being installed, the new gasket that
>    failed is 1.5mm thick after being installed.  The old gasket is very
>    nicely marked as to orientation, directions, copper compression rings are
>    thicker, etc., etc.,  Clearly the older gasket was made to work in
>    circumstances where the mating surfaces weren't always perfectly flat.
>    2. I highly suspect the mechanics that installed the head last time
>    did not torque the head in the proper sequence, quite possibly working from
>    the outside in.
>    3. The head stud mount holes on the deck were raised a bit in couple
>    places and may have caused the head to deflect a little, possibly, but they
>    don't seem to have been enough to make a difference... I have already filed
>    those holes down.  Micheal Salter has told me to run a countersink to debur
>    the hole.
>
> It's a weird one, I think possibly a combination of all three issues
> above.  Let's see how she goes after I finish the job.  Ultimately one
> thing I learned is I cannot anymore rely on mechanics that I do not know
> well to do work on my car... I end up having to redo everything.
>
> Best,
>
> Alan
>
>> On 2/1/2021 11:23 PM, Alan Seigrist wrote:
>> > All -
>> >
>> > Got the head off.  Sure enough the gasket blew between 3&4 .  some
>> > evidence of gas flow between 1&2 as well. Last pic is of me standing
>> > in the engine compartment lifting the head off, just to make all of
>> > you jealous ... :D
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Alan
>> >
>>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I don&#39;t recall what torque they used, but I personally=
 did check the torque settings after they assembled the engine and I had to=
 refine the torque ... I think I recall they had torqued varying amounts be=
tween 55 and 75 ft lbs, I topped up the torque to all at 75 ft lbs... so I =
don&#39;t think torque settings in of themselves was the problem.</div><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Fe=
b 3, 2021 at 10:46 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">gradea1@ch=
arter.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div>Alan-two questions: do you know if the car overheated at an=
y time after the replacement of the head?<div><br></div><div>Secondly, do y=
ou have any idea what torque they used to tighten the head, even if they di=
d not go in order?</div><div><br></div><div>A couple of us, who have been d=
oing this for awhile, decided on about 80 FT LBS. as max torque. There is n=
o book spec. That is a spec for that size stud and nut. The tightening orde=
r in the workshop manual is strictly adhered to, and the torque is brought =
up in 1/3 increments.</div><div><br></div><div>Again, I sprayed=C2=A0 both =
sides of my copper gasket with a light coating of Permatex copper seal.</di=
v><div>I used a Payen gasket which was marked top/front. Yea, the good old =
days...Hank<br><br><div></div><p>-----------------------------------------<=
/p>From: &quot;Alan Seigrist&quot; <u></u><br>To: &quot;Bob Spidell&quot;<b=
r>Cc: &quot;Healey list&quot;<br>Sent: Tuesday February 2 2021 6:07:37PM<br=
>Subject: Re: [Healeys] A90 Head Update<br><br>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Bob -
<div><br></div>
<div>This gasket was put on the car only about 5K miles ago if you
can believe it, but the car sat for about 10 years
afterwards...=C2=A0 I&#39;ve checked both the head and deck with a
rectifier (see pic), both are very nicely flat and do not need to
go to the machinist.=C2=A0 Both are flat to within 1/1000 on the
surface... which is less than the error on the rectifier!</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I have the previously removed very old copper gasket which I
saved and it has no signs of gas leaking between cylinders compared
to this newer gasket that=C2=A0I just=C2=A0removed.=C2=A0 I
discovered a few things:</div>
<div>
<ol><li>The old gasket is made with better quality, softer copper, and
is thicker than the newer gasket that was put on.=C2=A0 The old
gasket that showed no problems is 1.8mm thick after being
installed, the new gasket that failed is 1.5mm thick after being
installed.=C2=A0 The old gasket is very nicely=C2=A0marked as to
orientation, directions, copper compression rings are thicker,
etc., etc.,=C2=A0 Clearly the older gasket was made to work in
circumstances where the mating surfaces weren&#39;t always perfectly
flat.</li>
<li>I highly suspect the mechanics that installed the head last
time did not torque the head in the proper sequence, quite possibly
working from the outside in.=C2=A0=C2=A0</li>
<li>The head stud mount holes on the deck were raised a bit in
couple places and may have caused the head to deflect a little,
possibly, but they don&#39;t seem to have been enough to make a
difference... I have already filed those holes down.=C2=A0 Micheal
Salter has told me to run a countersink to debur the hole.</li>
</ol><div>It&#39;s a weird one, I think possibly a combination of all three
issues above.=C2=A0 Let&#39;s see how she goes after I finish the
job.=C2=A0 Ultimately one thing I learned is I cannot anymore rely
on mechanics that I do not know well to do work on my car... I end
up having to redo everything.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Best,</div>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Alan</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
On 2/1/2021 11:23 PM, Alan Seigrist wrote:<br>
&gt; All -<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Got the head off.=C2=A0 Sure enough the gasket blew between
3&amp;4 . =C2=A0some<br>
&gt; evidence of gas flow between 1&amp;2 as well. Last pic is of
me standing<br>
&gt; in the engine compartment lifting the head off, just to make
all of<br>
&gt; you jealous ... :D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Alan<br>
&gt;<br><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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ockquote>
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From: Alan Seigrist <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:54:03 +0800

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Hank -

Is the spray on sealant silicone, or is it a non hardening kind like
hylomar?  I'm a little concerned to use this as it may make disassembly
difficult later if I have to strip the engine down again.  What is your
experience?

Thanks,

Alan

> I used a Payen gasket which was marked top/front. Yea, the good old

--0000000000007f93ea05ba668ac8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hank -<div><br></div><div>Is the spray on sealant silicone=
, or is it a non hardening kind like hylomar?=C2=A0 I&#39;m a little concer=
ned to use this as it may make disassembly difficult later if I have to str=
ip the engine down again.=C2=A0 What is your experience?</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Alan</div></div><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10=
:46 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>A=
lan-two questions: do you know if the car overheated at any time after the =
replacement of the head?<div><br></div><div>Secondly, do you have any idea =
what torque they used to tighten the head, even if they did not go in order=
?</div><div><br></div><div>A couple of us, who have been doing this for awh=
ile, decided on about 80 FT LBS. as max torque. There is no book spec. That=
 is a spec for that size stud and nut. The tightening order in the workshop=
 manual is strictly adhered to, and the torque is brought up in 1/3 increme=
nts.</div><div><br></div><div>Again, I sprayed=C2=A0 both sides of my coppe=
r gasket with a light coating of Permatex copper seal.</div><div>I used a P=
ayen gasket which was marked top/front. Yea, the good old days...Hank<br><b=
r><div></div><p>-----------------------------------------</p>From: &quot;Al=
an Seigrist&quot; <u></u><br>To: &quot;Bob Spidell&quot;<br>Cc: &quot;Heale=
y list&quot;<br>Sent: Tuesday February 2 2021 6:07:37PM<br>Subject: Re: [He=
aleys] A90 Head Update<br><br>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Bob -
<div><br></div>
<div>This gasket was put on the car only about 5K miles ago if you
can believe it, but the car sat for about 10 years
afterwards...=C2=A0 I&#39;ve checked both the head and deck with a
rectifier (see pic), both are very nicely flat and do not need to
go to the machinist.=C2=A0 Both are flat to within 1/1000 on the
surface... which is less than the error on the rectifier!</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I have the previously removed very old copper gasket which I
saved and it has no signs of gas leaking between cylinders compared
to this newer gasket that=C2=A0I just=C2=A0removed.=C2=A0 I
discovered a few things:</div>
<div>
<ol><li>The old gasket is made with better quality, softer copper, and
is thicker than the newer gasket that was put on.=C2=A0 The old
gasket that showed no problems is 1.8mm thick after being
installed, the new gasket that failed is 1.5mm thick after being
installed.=C2=A0 The old gasket is very nicely=C2=A0marked as to
orientation, directions, copper compression rings are thicker,
etc., etc.,=C2=A0 Clearly the older gasket was made to work in
circumstances where the mating surfaces weren&#39;t always perfectly
flat.</li>
<li>I highly suspect the mechanics that installed the head last
time did not torque the head in the proper sequence, quite possibly
working from the outside in.=C2=A0=C2=A0</li>
<li>The head stud mount holes on the deck were raised a bit in
couple places and may have caused the head to deflect a little,
possibly, but they don&#39;t seem to have been enough to make a
difference... I have already filed those holes down.=C2=A0 Micheal
Salter has told me to run a countersink to debur the hole.</li>
</ol><div>It&#39;s a weird one, I think possibly a combination of all three
issues above.=C2=A0 Let&#39;s see how she goes after I finish the
job.=C2=A0 Ultimately one thing I learned is I cannot anymore rely
on mechanics that I do not know well to do work on my car... I end
up having to redo everything.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Best,</div>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Alan</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
On 2/1/2021 11:23 PM, Alan Seigrist wrote:<br>
&gt; All -<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Got the head off.=C2=A0 Sure enough the gasket blew between
3&amp;4 . =C2=A0some<br>
&gt; evidence of gas flow between 1&amp;2 as well. Last pic is of
me standing<br>
&gt; in the engine compartment lifting the head off, just to make
all of<br>
&gt; you jealous ... :D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Alan<br>
&gt;<br><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
nk"></a><a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys" target=3D"_blank=
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ttp://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys</a> <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/a=
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