Subject: Re: [Fot] To thermostat or not to thermostat...

From: dustin nicholson via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 23:40:32 -0500

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I haven=E2=80=99t seen any response to part of the original question of runn=
ing without a thermostat.=20

Here=E2=80=99s my experience with that idea. When I was 16 I had a very tire=
d 1296 Spit with the narrow radiator, small fan, and no overdrive that threa=
tened to over heat on hot Texas summer days. I =E2=80=9Cfixed=E2=80=9D it wi=
thin my budget ($0) by removing the thermostat. It worked great around town,=
 but cruising on the Highway (4,500 RPM at 70 MPH) and it would get very hot=
 very fast. My guess is the water was flowing too fast through the radiator a=
nd not cooling off before going back in the engine.=20

Lower RPM=E2=80=99s of the pump and a better cooling system might over come t=
hat problem, but even so I=E2=80=99d be hesitant to run without a thermostat=
.

Dusty Nicholson=20
281-871-9623

> On Jun 10, 2022, at 5:23 PM, DAVE HOGYE via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote=
:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> I run a 180 thermostat with a plastic or Teflon restrictor that has I thin=
k a 3/8" hole in it in the bypass line to mimic the standard bellows thermos=
tat's restriction.  Aluminum radiator, standard water pump and pulley sizes.=
  I'd would like to have a smaller crank pulley to slow the pump and alterna=
tor.  I use an expansion tank that fills the system and circulates coolant u=
sing the heater connections at the back of the head and return tube.  No fil=
ler cap on the radiator.  Temps typically around 190.  Both water and oil.  S=
treet or race.=20
> Dave H.
>> On 06/10/2022 12:18 PM Dave Riddle via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Brand new Aluminum Radiator from Wizard and all new hoses
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
> _______________________________________________
> [email-masked]
>=20
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/nicholsondus=
[email-masked]
>=20
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">I haven=E2=80=99t seen any response to part=
 of the original question of running without a thermostat.&nbsp;<div><br></d=
iv><div>Here=E2=80=99s my experience with that idea. When I was 16 I had a v=
ery tired 1296 Spit with the narrow radiator, small fan, and no overdrive th=
at threatened to over heat on hot Texas summer days. I =E2=80=9Cfixed=E2=80=9D=
 it within my budget ($0) by removing the thermostat. It worked great around=
 town, but cruising on the Highway (4,500 RPM at 70 MPH) and it would get ve=
ry hot very fast. My guess is the water was flowing too fast through the rad=
iator and not cooling off before going back in the engine.&nbsp;</div><div><=
br></div><div>Lower RPM=E2=80=99s of the pump and a better cooling system mi=
ght over come that problem, but even so I=E2=80=99d be hesitant to run witho=
ut a thermostat.<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Dusty Nicholson&nbsp;<div>281-871-9=
623</div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Jun 10, 202=
2, at 5:23 PM, DAVE HOGYE via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br><br><=
/blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF

 =20
  <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-8">=20=

=20
 =20
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif; c=
olor: #333333;"> <span style=3D"font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"></span>I run a 180 th=
ermostat with a plastic or Teflon restrictor that has I think a 3/8" hole in=
 it in the bypass line to mimic the standard bellows thermostat's restrictio=
n.&nbsp; Aluminum radiator, standard water pump and pulley sizes.&nbsp; I'd w=
ould like to have a smaller crank pulley to slow the pump and alternator.&nb=
sp; I use an expansion tank that fills the system and circulates coolant usi=
ng the heater connections at the back of the head and return tube.&nbsp; No f=
iller cap on the radiator.&nbsp; Temps typically around 190.&nbsp; Both wate=
r and oil.&nbsp; Street or race.</span>=20
   <br>=20
  </div>=20
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif; c=
olor: #333333;" class=3D"default-style"> <span style=3D"font-family: helveti=
ca; font-size: 12pt;">Dave H.</span>=20
  </div>=20
  <blockquote type=3D"cite">=20
   <div>
     On 06/10/2022 12:18 PM Dave Riddle via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; w=
rote:=20
   </div>=20
   <div>=20
    <br>=20
   </div>=20
   <div>=20
    <br>=20
   </div>=20
   <div class=3D"WordSection1">=20
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: #1f497d;">Brand new Aluminu=
m Radiator from Wizard and all new hoses </span></p>=20
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: #1f497d;">&nbsp;</span></p>=
=20
    <div>=20
     <div style=3D"border: none; border-top: solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding: 3=
.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"></div>=20
    </div>=20
   </div>=20
   <br>=20
  </blockquote>=20
=20
<img id=3D"60ACB7C3-27DC-4732-8BC2-EAA428C7A366" src=3D"cid:60ACB7C3-27DC-47=
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3-B2B30D24BF65" src=3D"cid:35D5F61C-D6A3-46F3-95D3-B2B30D24BF65"><span>_____=
__________________________________________</span><br><span>[email-masked]=
t</span><br><span></span><br><span>http://www.fot-racing.com</span><br><span=
></span><br><span>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html</span><br><span>Ar=
chive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</span=
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[email-masked]</span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br></div></b=
lockquote></div></body></html>=

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_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot

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---

From: Chris Marx via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 08:48:44 +0200

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About no thermostat:

The thermostat is a restrictor in the system. It lowers the water speed =
and rises block pressure.

High block pressure is good because it avoids boiling water at hot =
spots. If water starts boiling the steam expands and water is maybe =
forced out of the filler cap.

A high block pressure (higher than the pressure in the filler cap) gives =
some safety. That=E2=80=99s why many people take out the thermostat =
remove the valve from it and just do the plate back in place to still =
have back pressure=E2=80=A6created by the speeding pump pressing against =
this resistor plate.

=20

Check the Kastner books about this subjects.=20

=20

Cheers

Chris

=20

Von: dustin nicholson <[email-masked]>=20
Gesendet: Samstag, 11. Juni 2022 06:41
An: DAVE HOGYE <[email-masked]>
Cc: Dave Riddle <[email-masked]>; Dave Riddle via Fot =
<[email-masked]>; [email-masked]; Philip Gott =
<[email-masked]>
Betreff: Re: [Fot] To thermostat or not to thermostat...

=20

I haven=E2=80=99t seen any response to part of the original question of =
running without a thermostat.=20

=20

Here=E2=80=99s my experience with that idea. When I was 16 I had a very =
tired 1296 Spit with the narrow radiator, small fan, and no overdrive =
that threatened to over heat on hot Texas summer days. I =
=E2=80=9Cfixed=E2=80=9D it within my budget ($0) by removing the =
thermostat. It worked great around town, but cruising on the Highway =
(4,500 RPM at 70 MPH) and it would get very hot very fast. My guess is =
the water was flowing too fast through the radiator and not cooling off =
before going back in the engine.=20

=20

Lower RPM=E2=80=99s of the pump and a better cooling system might over =
come that problem, but even so I=E2=80=99d be hesitant to run without a =
thermostat.

Dusty Nicholson=20

281-871-9623

On Jun 10, 2022, at 5:23 PM, DAVE HOGYE via Fot <[email-masked] =

=EF=BB=BF=20

I run a 180 thermostat with a plastic or Teflon restrictor that has I =
think a 3/8" hole in it in the bypass line to mimic the standard bellows =
thermostat's restriction.  Aluminum radiator, standard water pump and =
pulley sizes.  I'd would like to have a smaller crank pulley to slow the =
pump and alternator.  I use an expansion tank that fills the system and =
circulates coolant using the heater connections at the back of the head =
and return tube.  No filler cap on the radiator.  Temps typically around =
190.  Both water and oil.  Street or race.=20

Dave H.=20

On 06/10/2022 12:18 PM Dave Riddle via Fot <[email-masked] =

=20

=20

Brand new Aluminum Radiator from Wizard and all new hoses=20

=20

=20

Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DDE>About no =
thermostat:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The thermostat is =
a restrictor in the system. It lowers the water speed and rises block =
pressure.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>High block pressure is good =
because it avoids boiling water at hot spots. If water starts boiling =
the steam expands and water is maybe forced out of the filler =
cap.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>A high block pressure (higher =
than the pressure in the filler cap) gives some safety. That=E2=80=99s =
why many people take out the thermostat remove the valve from it and =
just do the plate back in place to still have back =
pressure=E2=80=A6created by the speeding pump pressing against this =
resistor plate.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Check the =
Kastner books about this subjects. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DDE>Von:</span></b><span =
lang=3DDE> dustin nicholson &lt;[email-masked]&gt; =
<br><b>Gesendet:</b> Samstag, 11. Juni 2022 06:41<br><b>An:</b> DAVE =
HOGYE &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Dave Riddle =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;; Dave Riddle via Fot =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;; [email-masked]; Philip Gott =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Fot] To thermostat or =
not to thermostat...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
haven=E2=80=99t seen any response to part of the original question of =
running without a thermostat.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Here=E2=80=99s my experience with that idea. When I =
was 16 I had a very tired 1296 Spit with the narrow radiator, small fan, =
and no overdrive that threatened to over heat on hot Texas summer days. =
I =E2=80=9Cfixed=E2=80=9D it within my budget ($0) by removing the =
thermostat. It worked great around town, but cruising on the Highway =
(4,500 RPM at 70 MPH) and it would get very hot very fast. My guess is =
the water was flowing too fast through the radiator and not cooling off =
before going back in the engine.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Lower RPM=E2=80=99s of the pump and a =
better cooling system might over come that problem, but even so =
I=E2=80=99d be hesitant to run without a =
thermostat.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dusty =
Nicholson&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>281-871-9623<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Jun 10, 2022, at 5:23 PM, DAVE HOGYE =
via Fot &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>=EF=BB=BF <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#33333=
3'>I run a 180 thermostat with a plastic or Teflon restrictor that has I =
think a 3/8&quot; hole in it in the bypass line to mimic the standard =
bellows thermostat's restriction.&nbsp; Aluminum radiator, standard =
water pump and pulley sizes.&nbsp; I'd would like to have a smaller =
crank pulley to slow the pump and alternator.&nbsp; I use an expansion =
tank that fills the system and circulates coolant using the heater =
connections at the back of the head and return tube.&nbsp; No filler cap =
on the radiator.&nbsp; Temps typically around 190.&nbsp; Both water and =
oil.&nbsp; Street or race. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#33333=
3'>Dave H. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On 06/10/2022 12:18 PM Dave Riddle via Fot &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote: =
<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Brand new Aluminum Radiator from Wizard and all =
new hoses </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><img border=3D0 width=3D1024 height=3D768 =
style=3D'width:10.6666in;height:8.0in' =
id=3D"_x0036_0ACB7C3-27DC-4732-8BC2-EAA428C7A366" =
src=3D"cid:[email-masked]"><img border=3D0 width=3D1024 =
height=3D768 style=3D'width:10.6666in;height:8.0in' =
id=3D"_x0039_18E2789-19B0-46C7-AD04-B1989BAF7811" =
src=3D"cid:[email-masked]"><img border=3D0 width=3D1024 =
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src=3D"cid:[email-masked]">______________________________=
_________________<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br><br><a =
href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br><br>D=
onate: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html<=
/a><br>Archive: <a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive">http://autox.team.net/archive</a> =
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From: ralph hansen via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 21:31:54 +0000 (UTC)

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 you should at least pull the guts out of a stat or run a washer with the s=
ame size hole, no stat or restriction can cause uneven cooling, the pressur=
e buildup or lack of will only cool the front part of the block/head, the r=
estriction will allow proper pressure to flow all areas and not just the fr=
ont / basically no stat equals cold frt of engine, hot rear - the restricto=
r can be adjusted for more or less flow as needed to get the desired temp -=
 the best approx temp for combustion/power/mileage is around 190 - 195, tha=
t is what modern cars run and will not hurt any engine assuming the temp is=
 consistent across the system or really close

    On Saturday, June 11, 2022, 07:36:53 AM CDT, dustin nicholson via Fot <=
[email-masked]> wrote: =20
=20
 I haven=E2=80=99t seen any response to part of the original question of ru=
nning without a thermostat.=C2=A0
Here=E2=80=99s my experience with that idea. When I was 16 I had a very tir=
ed 1296 Spit with the narrow radiator, small fan, and no overdrive that thr=
eatened to over heat on hot Texas summer days. I =E2=80=9Cfixed=E2=80=9D it=
 within my budget ($0) by removing the thermostat. It worked great around t=
own, but cruising on the Highway (4,500 RPM at 70 MPH) and it would get ver=
y hot very fast. My guess is the water was flowing too fast through the rad=
iator and not cooling off before going back in the engine.=C2=A0
Lower RPM=E2=80=99s of the pump and a better cooling system might over come=
 that problem, but even so I=E2=80=99d be hesitant to run without a thermos=
tat.

Dusty Nicholson=C2=A0281-871-9623

On Jun 10, 2022, at 5:23 PM, DAVE HOGYE via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF=20
 I run a 180 thermostat with a plastic or Teflon restrictor that has I thin=
k a 3/8" hole in it in the bypass line to mimic the standard bellows thermo=
stat's restriction.=C2=A0 Aluminum radiator, standard water pump and pulley=
 sizes.=C2=A0 I'd would like to have a smaller crank pulley to slow the pum=
p and alternator.=C2=A0 I use an expansion tank that fills the system and c=
irculates coolant using the heater connections at the back of the head and =
return tube.=C2=A0 No filler cap on the radiator.=C2=A0 Temps typically aro=
und 190.=C2=A0 Both water and oil.=C2=A0 Street or race.=20
   Dave H. =20
  On 06/10/2022 12:18 PM Dave Riddle via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote:  =
=20
  =20
  =20
Brand new Aluminum Radiator from Wizard and all new hoses=20
=20
=C2=A0
    =20
=20
 _______________________________________________
[email-masked]

[email-masked]

com

 =20
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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydpe5c3f421yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px=
;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">you should at least pull the=
 guts out of a stat or run a washer with the same size hole, no stat or res=
triction can cause uneven cooling, the pressure buildup or lack of will onl=
y cool the front part of the block/head, the restriction will allow proper =
pressure to flow all areas and not just the front / basically no stat equal=
s cold frt of engine, hot rear - the restrictor can be adjusted for more or=
 less flow as needed to get the desired temp - the best approx temp for com=
bustion/power/mileage is around 190 - 195, that is what modern cars run and=
 will not hurt any engine assuming the temp is consistent across the system=
 or really close</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div=
><br></div>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"ydp139a170dyahoo_quoted_5423755207" class=3D"ydp13=
9a170dyahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Saturday, June 11, 2022, 07:36:53 AM CDT, dustin nic=
holson via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><div id=3D"ydp139a170dyiv0118063987"><div>I haven=E2=
=80=99t seen any response to part of the original question of running witho=
ut a thermostat.&nbsp;<div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Here=E2=80=99s my =
experience with that idea. When I was 16 I had a very tired 1296 Spit with =
the narrow radiator, small fan, and no overdrive that threatened to over he=
at on hot Texas summer days. I =E2=80=9Cfixed=E2=80=9D it within my budget =
($0) by removing the thermostat. It worked great around town, but cruising =
on the Highway (4,500 RPM at 70 MPH) and it would get very hot very fast. M=
y guess is the water was flowing too fast through the radiator and not cool=
ing off before going back in the engine.&nbsp;</div><div><br clear=3D"none"=
></div><div>Lower RPM=E2=80=99s of the pump and a better cooling system mig=
ht over come that problem, but even so I=E2=80=99d be hesitant to run witho=
ut a thermostat.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><div dir=3D"ltr">Dust=
y Nicholson&nbsp;<div>281-871-9623</div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div id=3D"y=
dp139a170dyiv0118063987yqtfd86205" class=3D"ydp139a170dyiv0118063987yqt9565=
933231"><br clear=3D"none"><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Jun 10, 2022, at 5:=
23 PM, DAVE HOGYE via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"non=
e"><br clear=3D"none"></blockquote></div></div><div id=3D"ydp139a170dyiv011=
8063987yqtfd66624" class=3D"ydp139a170dyiv0118063987yqt9565933231"><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF

 =20
  </div></blockquote></div></div></div><div id=3D"ydp139a170dyiv0118063987y=
qtfd74607" class=3D"ydp139a170dyiv0118063987yqt9565933231"></div><div><div =
id=3D"ydp139a170dyiv0118063987yqtfd76125" class=3D"ydp139a170dyiv0118063987=
yqt9565933231"><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica, arial, s=
ans-serif;color:#333333;"> <span style=3D"font-family:helvetica;font-size:1=
2pt;"><span style=3D"font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt;"></span>I run a =
180 thermostat with a plastic or Teflon restrictor that has I think a 3/8" =
hole in it in the bypass line to mimic the standard bellows thermostat's re=
striction.&nbsp; Aluminum radiator, standard water pump and pulley sizes.&n=
bsp; I'd would like to have a smaller crank pulley to slow the pump and alt=
ernator.&nbsp; I use an expansion tank that fills the system and circulates=
 coolant using the heater connections at the back of the head and return tu=
be.&nbsp; No filler cap on the radiator.&nbsp; Temps typically around 190.&=
nbsp; Both water and oil.&nbsp; Street or race.</span>=20
   <br clear=3D"none">=20
  </div>=20
  <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;col=
or:#333333;" class=3D"ydp139a170dyiv0118063987default-style"> <span style=
=3D"font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt;">Dave H.</span>=20
  </div>=20
  <blockquote type=3D"cite">=20
   <div>
     On 06/10/2022 12:18 PM Dave Riddle via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; =
wrote:=20
   </div>=20
   <div>=20
    <br clear=3D"none">=20
   </div>=20
   <div>=20
    <br clear=3D"none">=20
   </div>=20
   <div class=3D"ydp139a170dyiv0118063987WordSection1">=20
    <p class=3D"ydp139a170dyiv0118063987MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f=
497d;">Brand new Aluminum Radiator from Wizard and all new hoses </span></p=
    <p class=3D"ydp139a170dyiv0118063987MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f=
497d;">&nbsp;</span></p>=20
    <div>=20
     <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt=
 0in 0in 0in;"></div>=20
    </div>=20
   </div>=20
   <br clear=3D"none">=20
  </blockquote>=20
=20
<img id=3D"ydp139a170dyiv011806398760ACB7C3-27DC-4732-8BC2-EAA428C7A366" sr=
c=3D"cid:9vTlbqZguQmF8e4ChVbn" data-inlineimagemanipulating=3D"true" style=
=3D"width: 100%; max-width: 800px;"><img id=3D"ydp139a170dyiv0118063987918E=
2789-19B0-46C7-AD04-B1989BAF7811" src=3D"cid:KW6JJcknZL7uwDyw4dPs" data-inl=
ineimagemanipulating=3D"true" style=3D"width: 100%; max-width: 800px;"><img=
 id=3D"ydp139a170dyiv011806398735D5F61C-D6A3-46F3-95D3-B2B30D24BF65" src=3D=
"cid:TnwLQuY8aaqWyEe0n8FF" data-inlineimagemanipulating=3D"true" style=3D"w=
idth: 100%; max-width: 800px;"><span>______________________________________=
_________</span><br clear=3D"none"><span>[email-masked]</span><br clear=
=3D"none"><span></span><br clear=3D"none"><span>http://www.fot-racing.com</=
span><br clear=3D"none"><span></span><br clear=3D"none"><span>Donate: http:=
//www.team.net/donate.html</span><br clear=3D"none"><span>Archive: http://a=
utox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</span></div><br cle=
ar=3D"none"><span>Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options=
/fot/[email-masked]</span><div id=3D"ydp139a170dyiv0118063987yqt=
fd47282" class=3D"ydp139a170dyiv0118063987yqt9565933231"><br clear=3D"none"=
><span></span><br clear=3D"none"><span></span><br clear=3D"none"></div></di=
v></div><div class=3D"ydp139a170dyqt9565933231" id=3D"ydp139a170dyqtfd62388=
">_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"none"><a shap=
e=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_b=
lank">[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a shape=
=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_bl=
ank">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Don=
ate: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" rel=3D"nofo=
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From: Chris Marx via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 20:57:01 +0200

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I'm not unhappy to have some fresh air under the bonnet. 

It cooling everything,  exhaust headers, electric,  carbs, and stuff.

If all is closed only hot air comes in.

No advantage I guess. 

Cheers 

Chris 

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xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I'm not unhappy to have =
some fresh air under the bonnet.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>It cooling everything,&nbsp; exhaust headers, =
electric,&nbsp; carbs, and stuff.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If all is closed only hot air comes =
in.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>No advantage I =
guess.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></body></ht=
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From: Mike Mehl via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 22:12:20 +0000 (UTC)

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Agree on the restriction. You could pull the guts out of the thermostat

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 2:32 PM, ralph hansen via Fot<[email-masked]> wrote:   _______________________________________________
[email-masked]

  

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Agree on the restriction. You could pull the guts out of the thermostat<br>=
<br><div id=3D"ymail_android_signature"><a id=3D"ymail_android_signature_li=
nk" href=3D"https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=3DInProduct&amp;c=3DGlobal_=
Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&amp;af_wl=3Dym&amp;af_sub1=
=3DInternal&amp;af_sub2=3DGlobal_YGrowth&amp;af_sub3=3DEmailSignature">Sent=
 from Yahoo Mail on Android</a></div> <br> <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0=
 20px 0;"> <div style=3D"font-family:Roboto, sans-serif; color:#6D00F6;"> <=
div>On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 2:32 PM, ralph hansen via Fot</div><div>&lt;fot=
@autox.team.net&gt; wrote:</div> </div> <div style=3D"padding: 10px 0 0 20p=
x; margin: 10px 0 0 0; border-left: 1px solid #6D00F6;"> __________________=
_____________________________<br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">fot@autox=
.team.net</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" href=
=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.fot-racing.com<=
/a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Donate: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"=
te.html</a><br clear=3D"none">Archive: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://aut=
ox.team.net/archive " target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive </a><=
a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br clear=3D"none">Unsubscribe/Mana=
ge: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/mik=
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ot/[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=
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From: Ken Knight via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2022 07:02:06 -0700

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Chris;

If more air comes in than can go out, for instance at speed, nothing moves =
and there is no cooling.  There are only a few ways to get air out from und=
er the hood on a TR, some cowl work, side vents as on factory racers and th=
rough the bottom.  With coated headers most of the heat goes down the pipe =
and the electrics are not that sensitive.  Only fresh ambient temp air reac=
hes the carbs.  I have raced this setup at well over +100f/38c and all was =
good (water and oil temps).  Less air in means less exiting under the car w=
ith lifting and turbulence causing drag.

Hey listen, its more work and complex, likely worth only a tenth or so.  Ka=
s liked it and it was fun to engineer.  Have a great summer racing, Ken

From: Fot <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of Chris Marx via Fot
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2022 11:57 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Fot] To thermostat or not to thermostat...

No advantage I guess. 

Cheers 

Chris 

-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

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" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div class=3DWordSection=
1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Chris;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>If more air comes in than can go out, for i=
nstance at speed, nothing moves and there is no cooling. =C2=A0There are on=
ly a few ways to get air out from under the hood on a TR, some cowl work, s=
ide vents as on factory racers and through the bottom.=C2=A0 With coated he=
aders most of the heat goes down the pipe and the electrics are not that se=
nsitive.=C2=A0 Only fresh ambient temp air reaches the carbs.=C2=A0 I have =
raced this setup at well over +100f/38c and all was good (water and oil tem=
ps).=C2=A0 Less air in means less exiting under the car with lifting and tu=
rbulence causing drag.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hey listen, its more work and complex, likely wort=
h only a tenth or so.=C2=A0 Kas liked it and it was fun to engineer.=C2=A0 =
Have a great summer racing, Ken<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;=
padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Fot &lt;fot-bo=
[email-masked]&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Marx via Fot<br><b>Sent:=
</b> Sunday, June 12, 2022 11:57 AM<br><b>To:</b> [email-masked]<br><b>=
Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] To thermostat or not to thermostat...<o:p></o:p></p>=
</div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal>I'm not unhappy to have some fresh air under the bonnet.&nbsp;<o:p></o=
:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>It cooling everything,&nbsp; exhaust heade=
rs, electric,&nbsp; carbs, and stuff.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal>If all is closed only hot air comes in.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal>No advantage I guess.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Che=
ers&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Chris&nbsp;<o:p></o=
:p></p></div></div></div><div id=3D"DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><=
br />
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From: Chris Marx via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2022 22:47:26 +0200

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Dear Ken,

=20

Simple thing=E2=80=A6..if air is entering from the front (with shroud or =
without shroud) the air Must go somewhere.

It can=E2=80=99t get in a status that the air can=E2=80=99t go anywhere =
then there would be no cooling on the radiator.

=20

To answer, the air is going from the engine compartment under the car. =
And a small part along the gearbox tunnel and propshaft tunnel.

There is always air movement. Not sure about the efficiency of the side =
vents but they surely help and don=E2=80=99t hurt =E2=80=93 if there is =
no connection to the wheel arches.

If the vents are open to the wheel arches they more vent the wheels and =
prevent car lift than engine venting.

And not to forget, you don=E2=80=99t get much air through these small =
vents, compared to the big hole under the car.

I did tafting the engine bay and videoed it to see where the air is =
going.

=20

For that part I rely on having much air in the engine bay for cooling =
everything.

I never would coat or wrap headers=E2=80=A6they would soak engine power =
of wrapped or coated.

How do I know? Porsche did many tests on this subject. The cooler the =
exhaust pipe is, the more power.

That=E2=80=99s why I leave everything open.

=20

With regards to drag=E2=80=A6..the floor of the TR4 is not slick, so =
drag is not an issue. If the drivers compartment is closed, that would =
rise the top speed significantly but not if the front is sealed.=20

And for lift of the car=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6I drive in Dago Rake =
style=E2=80=A6..low front , high rear. That creates a slight down force =
under the car from the wedge shape distance to ground under the chassis.

=20

Cheers

Chris

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Von: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>=20
Gesendet: Montag, 13. Juni 2022 16:02
An: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Betreff: RE: [Fot] To thermostat or not to thermostat...

=20

Chris;

=20

If more air comes in than can go out, for instance at speed, nothing =
moves and there is no cooling.  There are only a few ways to get air out =
from under the hood on a TR, some cowl work, side vents as on factory =
racers and through the bottom.  With coated headers most of the heat =
goes down the pipe and the electrics are not that sensitive.  Only fresh =
ambient temp air reaches the carbs.  I have raced this setup at well =
over +100f/38c and all was good (water and oil temps).  Less air in =
means less exiting under the car with lifting and turbulence causing =
drag.

=20

Hey listen, its more work and complex, likely worth only a tenth or so.  =
Kas liked it and it was fun to engineer.  Have a great summer racing, =
Ken

=20

From: Fot <[email-masked] =
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2022 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Fot] To thermostat or not to thermostat...

=20

I'm not unhappy to have some fresh air under the bonnet.=20

No advantage I guess.=20

=20

Cheers=20

Chris=20

=20

 =
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&=
utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient>=20

Virus-free.  =
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&=
utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient> www.avg.com=20

=20

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<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
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	color:#0563C1;
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dear Ken,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Simple =
thing=E2=80=A6..if air is entering from the front (with shroud or =
without shroud) the air Must go somewhere.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>It can=E2=80=99t get in a status that the air =
can=E2=80=99t go anywhere then there would be no cooling on the =
radiator.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To answer, the air is going from the engine =
compartment under the car. And a small part along the gearbox tunnel and =
propshaft tunnel.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>There is always air =
movement. Not sure about the efficiency of the side vents but they =
surely help and don=E2=80=99t hurt =E2=80=93 if there is no connection =
to the wheel arches.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>If the vents are =
open to the wheel arches they more vent the wheels and prevent car lift =
than engine venting.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>And not to =
forget, you don=E2=80=99t get much air through these small vents, =
compared to the big hole under the car.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I did tafting the engine bay and videoed it to see =
where the air is going.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>For that =
part I rely on having much air in the engine bay for cooling =
everything.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I never would coat or =
wrap headers=E2=80=A6they would soak engine power of wrapped or =
coated.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>How do I know? Porsche did =
many tests on this subject. The cooler the exhaust pipe is, the more =
power.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>That=E2=80=99s why I leave =
everything open.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>With regards =
to drag=E2=80=A6..the floor of the TR4 is not slick, so drag is not an =
issue. If the drivers compartment is closed, that would rise the top =
speed significantly but not if the front is sealed. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>And for lift of the car=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6I drive in =
Dago Rake style=E2=80=A6..low front , high rear. That creates a slight =
down force under the car from the wedge shape distance to ground under =
the chassis.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DDE>Von:</span></b><span =
lang=3DDE> [email-masked] &lt;[email-masked]&gt; =
<br><b>Gesendet:</b> Montag, 13. Juni 2022 16:02<br><b>An:</b> =
[email-masked]; [email-masked]<br><b>Betreff:</b> RE: =
[Fot] To thermostat or not to =
thermostat...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>If more air =
comes in than can go out, for instance at speed, nothing moves and there =
is no cooling. &nbsp;There are only a few ways to get air out from under =
the hood on a TR, some cowl work, side vents as on factory racers and =
through the bottom.&nbsp; With coated headers most of the heat goes down =
the pipe and the electrics are not that sensitive.&nbsp; Only fresh =
ambient temp air reaches the carbs.&nbsp; I have raced this setup at =
well over +100f/38c and all was good (water and oil temps).&nbsp; Less =
air in means less exiting under the car with lifting and turbulence =
causing drag.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hey listen, its more work and complex, likely worth =
only a tenth or so.&nbsp; Kas liked it and it was fun to engineer.&nbsp; =
Have a great summer racing, Ken<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Fot &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>=
&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Marx via Fot<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June =
12, 2022 11:57 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br><b>Subject:<=
/b> Re: [Fot] To thermostat or not to =
thermostat...<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I'm not =
unhappy to have some fresh air under the =
bonnet.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>It cooling =
everything,&nbsp; exhaust headers, electric,&nbsp; carbs, and =
stuff.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>If all is closed =
only hot air comes in.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>No =
advantage I guess.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div =
id=3DDAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2><p =
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From: Chris Marx via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2022 17:49:15 +0200

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Dear Ken,

=20

a really interesting discussion.

As far I know=E2=80=A6.F1 cars do enter air in the engine compartment =
and waste it through the rear diffusor together with the exhaust fumes.

But maybe I=E2=80=99m not up to date.

=20

I only look at my car at speed. What is going on, which air is going =
where, what item needs cooling, what suffers from heat.

I would say that my car is one of the most reliable cars on the grid.

We don=E2=80=99t have desert races here but the temperatures can climb =
above 40=C2=B0C in the shadow. Not often but occasionally.

I don=E2=80=99t look on my car stationary. Stationary cars might profit =
from wrapped  headers.

=20

You=E2=80=99re right, Porsche did the measurements on the crossflow =
heads. Our heads are even more sensitive to wrapped headers because the =
header and intake are on the same side and close neighbors.

I gloss polished my intake header to reflect any heat radiation from the =
exhaust. As a result only conducted heat does heat it up.

Conduction takes place from the head side. The cooler the exhaust header =
and head is, the less the intake heats up, gives more power as the =
intake charge remains colder and more dense.=20

To cool the exhaust header I need fresh air.

I don=E2=80=99t use an airbox as an airbox is a reflection chamber for =
all 4  cylinders and I don=E2=80=99t have the opportunity to calculate =
if the wavefronts of the intake process interfere in a bad manner or in =
a positive manner. Using no airbox is in my opinion the safe side.

=20

I don=E2=80=99t rev my engine high. 5800 or maybe 6200 if needed. The =
overdrive is keeping the revs low.

My engine is designed to give good torque but not high power. It  =
produces about 170foot pound something and the curve starts from 3000 =
=E2=80=93 5800 rpm.

=20

Cheers

Chris

=20

=20

=20

Von: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>=20
Gesendet: Dienstag, 14. Juni 2022 16:43
An: [email-masked]
Betreff: RE: [Fot] To thermostat or not to thermostat...

=20

Chris;

=20

All interesting points.  However, no modern race car puts any more air =
through the engine compartment than needed=E2=80=A6.at speed.  Notice =
all those F1 cars being cooled by dry ice fans at rest.  You want just =
enough air in to cool the radiator and this I have accomplished.  Never =
a cooling problem at tempartures your side of the pond will likely never =
see.  All the other componants have all worked well for years.  I do =
wrap the starter with an insulated blanket for extra protection since is =
sits right on top of the collector.

=20

Several folks have done dyno runs on headers and found no HP difference =
coated/uncoated.  Comparing a cross flow Porsche race motor to our old =
lump is pretty meaningless in my opinion in this regard.  Since your =
carb and intake manifold is sitting right on top of the headers, =
certainly not the case in the Porsche, keeping them from getting cooked =
is the best way to  make power.   Even if there were a HP loss from =
coating, I would bet money on it being less than you get from heating =
carb/intake manifold.  There is plenty of data on coated headers being =
able to drop underhood tempartures by significant amounts.   Again, it =
works on my car as the carbs are getting the coldest air available from =
in front of the radiator.  The air box is insulated so that is about as =
good as it gets.  What remains of the air getting in under the hood is =
getting out.

=20

Kas always talked about putting a floor pan on the car, he knew the =
benefits from when he took a TR4 to the Bonneville Salt Flats.  For what =
we do it is just not worth the trouble.  I run my car flat with a front =
dam and very low.  The cockpit is faired in and the car will pull just =
short of the 7,000 rpm redline with a 3.7 rear gear, which Kas figured =
was just about as fast as the brick can go for aero reasons.  All the =
rest of the setup is secret=E2=80=A6.Ha!

=20

Anyway, great discussion and hope you have much luck racing this summer. =
 We are off until September and that is likely the last race for me this =
year.  I am retiring end of year and we have bought a 2 acre ranch =
property on the Central Coast of California, outside Paso Robles.  It is =
has shop but I will be expanding to fit the hobby.  Good news is =
Buttonwillow 64 miles, Willow 174 miles, Laguna Seca 107 miles and Sears =
Point about 200 + two Kart tracks under 60 miles (I have a TAG racing =
Kart).  The rest of the year is moving from Las Vegas to Paso and =
getting set up.  Much to do.

=20

Cheers, Ken

=20

From: Fot <[email-masked] =
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2022 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Fot] To thermostat or not to thermostat...

=20

Dear Ken,

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Cheers

Chris

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Chris;

=20

=20

=20

=20

No advantage I guess.=20

=20

Cheers=20

Chris=20

=20

 =

Virus-free.  =

=20

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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DDE>Dear =
Ken,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DDE><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DDE>a really interesting discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>As far I know=E2=80=A6.F1 cars do enter air in the =
engine compartment and waste it through the rear diffusor together with =
the exhaust fumes.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>But maybe =
I=E2=80=99m not up to date.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I only look =
at my car at speed. What is going on, which air is going where, what =
item needs cooling, what suffers from heat.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I would say that my car is one of the most reliable =
cars on the grid.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>We don=E2=80=99t =
have desert races here but the temperatures can climb above 40=C2=B0C in =
the shadow. Not often but occasionally.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I don=E2=80=99t look on my car stationary. Stationary =
cars might profit from wrapped=C2=A0 headers.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>You=E2=80=99re right, Porsche did the measurements on =
the crossflow heads. Our heads are even more sensitive to wrapped =
headers because the header and intake are on the same side and close =
neighbors.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I gloss polished my intake =
header to reflect any heat radiation from the exhaust. As a result only =
conducted heat does heat it up.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Conduction takes place from the head side. The cooler =
the exhaust header and head is, the less the intake heats up, gives more =
power as the intake charge remains colder and more dense. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>To cool the exhaust header I need =
fresh air.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I don=E2=80=99t use an =
airbox as an airbox is a reflection chamber for all 4=C2=A0 cylinders =
and I don=E2=80=99t have the opportunity to calculate if the wavefronts =
of the intake process interfere in a bad manner or in a positive manner. =
Using no airbox is in my opinion the safe side.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
don=E2=80=99t rev my engine high. 5800 or maybe 6200 if needed. The =
overdrive is keeping the revs low.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>My =
engine is designed to give good torque but not high power. It=C2=A0 =
produces about 170foot pound something and the curve starts from 3000 =
=E2=80=93 5800 rpm.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DDE>Von:</span></b><span =
lang=3DDE> [email-masked] &lt;[email-masked]&gt; =
<br><b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag, 14. Juni 2022 16:43<br><b>An:</b> =
[email-masked]<br><b>Betreff:</b> RE: [Fot] To thermostat or =
not to thermostat...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>All =
interesting points.&nbsp; However, no modern race car puts any more air =
through the engine compartment than needed=E2=80=A6.at speed.&nbsp; =
Notice all those F1 cars being cooled by dry ice fans at rest.&nbsp; You =
want just enough air in to cool the radiator and this I have =
accomplished.&nbsp; Never a cooling problem at tempartures your side of =
the pond will likely never see.&nbsp; All the other componants have all =
worked well for years.&nbsp; I do wrap the starter with an insulated =
blanket for extra protection since is sits right on top of the =
collector.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Several folks have done dyno runs on headers and found =
no HP difference coated/uncoated.&nbsp; Comparing a cross flow Porsche =
race motor to our old lump is pretty meaningless in my opinion in this =
regard.&nbsp; Since your carb and intake manifold is sitting right on =
top of the headers, certainly not the case in the Porsche, keeping them =
from getting cooked is the best way to&nbsp; make power.&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Even if there were a HP loss from coating, I would bet money on it being =
less than you get from heating carb/intake manifold.&nbsp; There is =
plenty of data on coated headers being able to drop underhood =
tempartures by significant amounts. &nbsp;&nbsp;Again, it works on my =
car as the carbs are getting the coldest air available from in front of =
the radiator.&nbsp; The air box is insulated so that is about as good as =
it gets.&nbsp; What remains of the air getting in under the hood is =
getting out.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kas always talked about putting a floor pan on the =
car, he knew the benefits from when he took a TR4 to the Bonneville Salt =
Flats.&nbsp; For what we do it is just not worth the trouble.&nbsp; I =
run my car flat with a front dam and very low.&nbsp; The cockpit is =
faired in and the car will pull just short of the 7,000 rpm redline with =
a 3.7 rear gear, which Kas figured was just about as fast as the brick =
can go for aero reasons.&nbsp; All the rest of the setup is =
secret=E2=80=A6.Ha!<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Anyway, =
great discussion and hope you have much luck racing this summer.&nbsp; =
We are off until September and that is likely the last race for me this =
year.&nbsp; I am retiring end of year and we have bought a 2 acre ranch =
property on the Central Coast of California, outside Paso Robles.&nbsp; =
It is has shop but I will be expanding to fit the hobby.&nbsp; Good news =
is Buttonwillow 64 miles, Willow 174 miles, Laguna Seca 107 miles and =
Sears Point about 200 + two Kart tracks under 60 miles (I have a TAG =
racing Kart).&nbsp; The rest of the year is moving from Las Vegas to =
Paso and getting set up.&nbsp; Much to do.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers, =
Ken<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Fot &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>=
&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Marx via Fot<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June =
13, 2022 1:47 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br><b>Subject:<=
/b> Re: [Fot] To thermostat or not to =
thermostat...<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dear =
Ken,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Simple thing=E2=80=A6..if air is entering from the =
front (with shroud or without shroud) the air Must go =
somewhere.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>It can=E2=80=99t get in a =
status that the air can=E2=80=99t go anywhere then there would be no =
cooling on the radiator.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>To answer, =
the air is going from the engine compartment under the car. And a small =
part along the gearbox tunnel and propshaft tunnel.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>There is always air movement. Not sure about the =
efficiency of the side vents but they surely help and don=E2=80=99t hurt =
=E2=80=93 if there is no connection to the wheel =
arches.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>If the vents are open to the =
wheel arches they more vent the wheels and prevent car lift than engine =
venting.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>And not to forget, you =
don=E2=80=99t get much air through these small vents, compared to the =
big hole under the car.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I did tafting =
the engine bay and videoed it to see where the air is =
going.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For that part I rely on having much air in the engine =
bay for cooling everything.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I never =
would coat or wrap headers=E2=80=A6they would soak engine power of =
wrapped or coated.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>How do I know? =
Porsche did many tests on this subject. The cooler the exhaust pipe is, =
the more power.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>That=E2=80=99s why I =
leave everything open.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>With regards =
to drag=E2=80=A6..the floor of the TR4 is not slick, so drag is not an =
issue. If the drivers compartment is closed, that would rise the top =
speed significantly but not if the front is sealed. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>And for lift of the car=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6I drive in =
Dago Rake style=E2=80=A6..low front , high rear. That creates a slight =
down force under the car from the wedge shape distance to ground under =
the chassis.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DDE>Von:</span></b><span =
lang=3DDE> <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
<br><b>Gesendet:</b> Montag, 13. Juni 2022 16:02<br><b>An:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br><b>Betreff:<=
/b> RE: [Fot] To thermostat or not to =
thermostat...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>If more air =
comes in than can go out, for instance at speed, nothing moves and there =
is no cooling. &nbsp;There are only a few ways to get air out from under =
the hood on a TR, some cowl work, side vents as on factory racers and =
through the bottom.&nbsp; With coated headers most of the heat goes down =
the pipe and the electrics are not that sensitive.&nbsp; Only fresh =
ambient temp air reaches the carbs.&nbsp; I have raced this setup at =
well over +100f/38c and all was good (water and oil temps).&nbsp; Less =
air in means less exiting under the car with lifting and turbulence =
causing drag.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hey listen, its more work and complex, likely worth =
only a tenth or so.&nbsp; Kas liked it and it was fun to engineer.&nbsp; =
Have a great summer racing, Ken<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Fot &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>=
&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Marx via Fot<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June =
12, 2022 11:57 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br><b>Subject:<=
/b> Re: [Fot] To thermostat or not to =
thermostat...<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I'm not =
unhappy to have some fresh air under the =
bonnet.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>It cooling =
everything,&nbsp; exhaust headers, electric,&nbsp; carbs, and =
stuff.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>If all is closed =
only hot air comes in.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>No =
advantage I guess.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div =
id=3DDAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2><p =
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