Subject: Re: [Fot] TR water pump upgrade

From: "John H. Hasty via Fot" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 23:09:54 +0000

Contact Brian Howlett @ BFE

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 27, 2022, at 7:02 PM, Enquiries Road & Track via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> 
> does anyone have real-world / hands-on experience with the supposed "upgrade" water pumps that used to be sold for the 4 cyl TR range??. My research suggests some used a different 6 vane impellor that have a taper top, so an insert was used in the pump housing to match this shape. some were just a 6 vane impellor with an otherwise stock pump. 
> 
> thanks
> terry
> Australia
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> http://www.fot-racing.com
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_______________________________________________
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From: Phil Gott via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 10:35:23 +0000 (UTC)

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My own experience has been that some of these "upgraded" pumps such as one =
sold by Moss use a much smaller stud to hold the pulley on. =C2=A0Over time=
, this will break with potentially catastrophic results. =C2=A0(ask me how =
I know!)
Phil Gott

-----Original Message-----
From: John H. Hasty via Fot <[email-masked]>
To: Enquiries Road & Track <[email-masked]>
Cc: FOT <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wed, Apr 27, 2022 7:10 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR water pump upgrade

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 27, 2022, at 7:02 PM, Enquiries Road & Track via Fot <[email-masked]=
am.net> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> does anyone have real-world / hands-on experience with the supposed "upgr=
ade" water pumps that used to be sold for the 4 cyl TR range??. My research=
 suggests some used a different 6 vane impellor that have a taper top, so a=
n insert was used in the pump housing to match this shape. some were just a=
 6 vane impellor with an otherwise stock pump.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/jhasty@mhc-=
law.com
>=20
>=20

com

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<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:b=
lack;"><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">My own experience has been that some of =
these "upgraded" pumps such as one sold by Moss use a much smaller stud to =
hold the pulley on. &nbsp;Over time, this will break with potentially catas=
trophic results. &nbsp;(ask me how I know!)</div><div style=3D"font-family:=
 arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=
=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;=
"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-siz=
e: 10pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Phil Gott<br><br><br>-----Original =
Message-----<br>From: John H. Hasty via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>T=
o: Enquiries Road &amp; Track &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>Cc: =
FOT &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>Sent: Wed, Apr 27, 2022 7:10 pm<br>Subjec=
t: Re: [Fot] TR water pump upgrade<br><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Contact Br=
ian Howlett @ BFE<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Sent from my iPhone<=
br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">&gt; On Apr 27, 2022, at 7:02 PM, Enqu=
iries Road &amp; Track via Fot &lt;<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:fot@=
autox.team.net" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; =EF=BB=BF<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt; does anyone have real-world / hands-on experience with the s=
upposed "upgrade" water pumps that used to be sold for the 4 cyl TR range??=
. My research suggests some used a different 6 vane impellor that have a ta=
per top, so an insert was used in the pump housing to match this shape. som=
e were just a 6 vane impellor with an otherwise stock pump. <br clear=3D"no=
ne">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; thanks<br clear=3D"none">&gt; terry<br cle=
ar=3D"none">&gt; Australia<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; <=
br clear=3D"none">&gt; _______________________________________________<br c=
lear=3D"none">&gt; <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none"=
>&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.fot-raci=
ng.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br clear=3D"none">=
&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; Donate: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.t=
eam.net/donate.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><=
br clear=3D"none">&gt; Archive: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://autox.team=
.net/archive" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive </a><a shape=
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://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br clear=3D"none">&gt; Unsubscribe/Manage=
: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/jhast=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/=
[email-masked]</a><div class=3D"yqt2340811199" id=3D"yqtfd80255"><br cl=
ear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">______________=
_________________________________<br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" ymail=
to=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">fot@aut=
ox.team.net</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" href=
=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.fot-racing.com=
</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Donate: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D=
"http://www.team.net/donate.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/don=
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tox.team.net/archive" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive </a><=
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[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none=
"></div></div></div>
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From: Alexandre Camoletti via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:18:55 +0200

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Dears FOters, re water pump upgrades : I do not think it is necessary, =
as long as you have a good OEM one.=20

My engine is fully prepped and ran an OEM pump with no issues for years. =

I now rebuilt this OEM pump with a new seal, resurfaced the face where =
the seal spins, cleaned and repacked the bearings with water proof =
grease and off we go for another 50 years.

=20

The problem with the stock repro pumps is that they may have slightly =
smaller vanes in the impeller (I noticed this on pumps sold by Moss in =
the 90s). This severely impacts the flow.

And at $30-50 each manufactured overseas you cannot expect much of close =
tolerances, steel shaft quality, etc.

Increased flow may actually not be an improvement : the greater flow (if =
it effectively is greater) may create cavitation and /or turbulences and =
air pockets, thus effectively reducing the cooling.=20

I experienced this in a Lotus Esprit engine where the previous owner had =
increased the speed of the pump by fitting a smaller pulley.

=20

And remember : the great Kas Kastner himself was running fully prepped =
engines with the stock pump (as far as I know).

=20

Cheers to all and have a great racing season !

=20

Alex Camoletti=20

=20

(Switzerland, 1959 3A)

=20

De : Fot [mailto:[email-masked]] De la part de Phil Gott via =
Fot
Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 28 avril 2022 12:35
=C3=80 : [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Objet : Re: [Fot] TR water pump upgrade

=20

My own experience has been that some of these "upgraded" pumps such as =
one sold by Moss use a much smaller stud to hold the pulley on.  Over =
time, this will break with potentially catastrophic results.  (ask me =
how I know!)

=20

Phil Gott

-----Original Message-----
From: John H. Hasty via Fot <[email-masked]>
To: Enquiries Road & Track <[email-masked]>
Cc: FOT <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wed, Apr 27, 2022 7:10 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR water pump upgrade

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 27, 2022, at 7:02 PM, Enquiries Road & Track via Fot =
<[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> does anyone have real-world / hands-on experience with the supposed =
"upgrade" water pumps that used to be sold for the 4 cyl TR range??. My =
research suggests some used a different 6 vane impellor that have a =
taper top, so an insert was used in the pump housing to match this =
shape. some were just a 6 vane impellor with an otherwise stock pump.=20
> http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>=20
>=20
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive  =
<http://autox.team.net/archive> http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>=20

Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive  <http://autox.team.net/archive> =
http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DFR-CH link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'>Dears FOters, re =
water pump upgrades&nbsp;: I do not think it is necessary, as long as =
you have a good OEM one. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'>My engine is =
fully prepped and ran an OEM pump with no issues for years. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'>I now rebuilt =
this OEM pump with a new seal, resurfaced the face where the seal spins, =
cleaned and repacked the bearings with water proof grease and off we go =
for another 50 years.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'>The problem with =
the stock repro pumps is that they may have slightly smaller vanes in =
the impeller (I noticed this on pumps sold by Moss in the 90s). This =
severely impacts the flow.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'>And at $30-50 =
each manufactured overseas you cannot expect much of close tolerances, =
steel shaft quality, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'>Increased flow =
may actually not be an improvement&nbsp;: the greater flow (if it =
effectively is greater) may create cavitation and /or turbulences and =
air pockets, thus effectively reducing the cooling. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'>I experienced =
this in a Lotus Esprit engine where the previous owner had increased the =
speed of the pump by fitting a smaller pulley.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'>And =
remember&nbsp;: the great Kas Kastner himself was running fully prepped =
engines with the stock pump (as far as I know).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'>Cheers to all and =
have a great racing season&nbsp;!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'>Alex Camoletti =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'>(Switzerland, =
1959 3A)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#44546A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De&nbsp;:</s=
pan></b><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Fot =
[mailto:[email-masked]] <b>De la part de</b> Phil Gott via =
Fot<br><b>Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 28 avril 2022 =
12:35<br><b>=C3=80&nbsp;:</b> [email-masked]; =
[email-masked]<br><b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Fot] TR water =
pump upgrade<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>M=
y own experience has been that some of these &quot;upgraded&quot; pumps =
such as one sold by Moss use a much smaller stud to hold the pulley on. =
&nbsp;Over time, this will break with potentially catastrophic results. =
&nbsp;(ask me how I know!)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>P=
hil Gott<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: John H. Hasty =
via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>To: Enquiries Road &amp; Track =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>Cc: FOT =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>Sent: Wed, Apr 27, 2022 7:10 =
pm<br>Subject: Re: [Fot] TR water pump =
upgrade<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>C=
ontact Brian Howlett @ BFE<br><br>Sent from my iPhone<br><br>&gt; On Apr =
27, 2022, at 7:02 PM, Enquiries Road &amp; Track via Fot &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =EF=BB=BF<br>&gt; does anyone have real-world / =
hands-on experience with the supposed &quot;upgrade&quot; water pumps =
that used to be sold for the 4 cyl TR range??. My research suggests some =
used a different 6 vane impellor that have a taper top, so an insert was =
used in the pump housing to match this shape. some were just a 6 vane =
impellor with an otherwise stock pump. <br>&gt; <br>&gt; thanks<br>&gt; =
terry<br>&gt; Australia<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; Donate: =
<a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>&gt; Archive: =
<a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" =
target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive </a><a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br>&gt; =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/jhasty@mhc-la=
w.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><div id=3Dyqtfd80255><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
<br>_______________________________________________<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br><br><a =
href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br><br>Donate: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>Archive: <a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" =
target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive </a><a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br>Unsubscribe/Ma=
nage: <a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/vfracing@aol.=
com</a><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></body></htm=
l>
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From: Larry Young via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 08:51:05 -0500

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It always gets me how we let these vendors get away with these 
"upgraded", "higher-better" claims. I  recall investigating  "high 
volume" oil pumps. I got no answers when I asked - how much higher?

On 4/28/2022 5:35 AM, Phil Gott via Fot wrote:
> My own experience has been that some of these "upgraded" pumps such as 
> one sold by Moss use a much smaller stud to hold the pulley on.  Over 
> time, this will break with potentially catastrophic results.  (ask me 
> how I know!)
>
> Phil Gott
>
>
> > does anyone have real-world / hands-on experience with the supposed 
> "upgrade" water pumps that used to be sold for the 4 cyl TR range??. 
> My research suggests some used a different 6 vane impellor that have a 
> taper top, so an insert was used in the pump housing to match this 
> shape. some were just a 6 vane impellor with an otherwise stock pump.
> >
> > thanks
> > terry
> > Australia
> >
> >
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    It always gets me how we let these vendors get away with these
    "upgraded", "higher-better" claims. I  recall investigating  "high
    volume" oil pumps. I got no answers when I asked - how much higher?
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/28/2022 5:35 AM, Phil Gott via Fot
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:black;">
        <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:
          10pt; color: black;" data-mce-style="font-family:
          arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">My
          own experience has been that some of these "upgraded" pumps
          such as one sold by Moss use a much smaller stud to hold the
          pulley on.  Over time, this will break with potentially
          catastrophic results.  (ask me how I know!)</div>
        <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:
          10pt; color: black;" data-mce-style="font-family:
          arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;"><br>
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          10pt; color: black;" data-mce-style="font-family:
          arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Phil
          Gott<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          -----Original Message-----<br>
          From: John H. Hasty via Fot <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
          To: Enquiries Road &amp; Track
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
          Cc: FOT <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
          Sent: Wed, Apr 27, 2022 7:10 pm<br>
          Subject: Re: [Fot] TR water pump upgrade<br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div dir="ltr">Contact Brian Howlett @ BFE<br clear="none">
          <br clear="none">
          Sent from my iPhone<br clear="none">
          <br clear="none">
          &gt; On Apr 27, 2022, at 7:02 PM, Enquiries Road &amp; Track
          via Fot &lt;<a shape="rect"
            ymailto="mailto:[email-masked]"
            href="mailto:[email-masked]" moz-do-not-send="true"
            class="moz-txt-link-freetext">[email-masked]</a>&gt;
          wrote:<br clear="none">
          &gt; <br clear="none">
          &gt; <br clear="none">
          &gt; does anyone have real-world / hands-on experience with
          the supposed "upgrade" water pumps that used to be sold for
          the 4 cyl TR range??. My research suggests some used a
          different 6 vane impellor that have a taper top, so an insert
          was used in the pump housing to match this shape. some were
          just a 6 vane impellor with an otherwise stock pump. <br
            clear="none">
          &gt; <br clear="none">
          &gt; thanks<br clear="none">
          &gt; terry<br clear="none">
          &gt; Australia<br clear="none">
          &gt; <br clear="none">
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      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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