Subject: Re: [Fot] Aluminum Radiators

From: Philip Gott via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 05:50:16 -0500

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For a while, one of the chemical companies was advocating plastic radiators.=
 They even had some on display at an SAE conference.  Apparently they tested=
 well.  Their argument was that the important factor was the net water to ai=
r heat transfer, and that the limiting things were the water to radiator mat=
erial and then the radiator material to air, not the radiator material itsel=
f, as I recall. They said they could mold a radiator into unusual shapes tha=
t would enable better vehicle aerodynamics with more design freedom in the f=
ront end=E2=80=A6.
Never went anywhere to my knowledge.
Phil Gott

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 4, 2022, at 6:46 PM, rek46 via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> There is no solder in the fin to tube transfer.....the tubes are a Brazed a=
lum. that is 7 to 12 percent outer layer of Silicon...depending on whether i=
t is for one side or 2....these ingots are mated together (1 or 2 side ) wit=
h the original 3000 series base ingot ...So you have a base ingot (about 20"=
) and one or 2 outer ingots(about 2' to 3' per side as spec req.required) st=
acked up to get your  one or 2 side outer layers... Then they are hot rolled=
 on a reversing mill to several passes to get thin er gauges...which next go=
es to some 4 stnd cold rolling mills. to get down to about .80 ...this is no=
w ready to ship to finishig mill....which then will take about 8 passes to g=
et down to about .006 to .004"....during this process ,you may need to inter=
-anneal at certain passes,to end up with H-19  to H -0 TEMPERS for forming ,=
etc.  dependent on customers finish processes, and customer requierments (ma=
ny)....This is non technical info as req. by secrecy agreements....BTW...Fin=
 stock is run seperate ly ,and produced to .003" ish   to . 0045" ish,plus s=
pecials for other reqs........rick
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> In a message dated 1/4/2022 5:24:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, [email-masked]=
am.net writes:
> =20
> =20
> This is informative=E2=80=A6.
> =20
> =20
> What material makes the better Radiator: Aluminum or Copper?
>=20
> https://www.motormouthradio.com/blog/118-what-material-makes-the-better-ra=
diator-aluminum-or-copper
> =20
> =20
> An Aluminum or Copper Radiator for Your Car - Car Craft Magazine
>=20
> https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/ccrp-0211-aluminum-or-copper-radiator-fo=
r-your-car/
>=20
> On Jan 4, 2022, at 12:56 PM, TeriAnn J. Wakeman via Fot <[email-masked]=
t> wrote:
>=20
> On 1/4/22 11:50 AM, dustin nicholson via Fot wrote:
> I read an interesting article once that said while brass/copper out perfor=
ms aluminum, an aluminum radiator will dissipate heat better than brass radi=
ators because of all the leads solder in the seams of the brass. Lead holds t=
he heat and therefore offsets the advantage of the brass. Seems like reasona=
ble logic but I can=E2=80=99t substantiate it.
>=20
>=20
> Why aluminum radiators are better than bass:
>=20
> Thermal conductivity Btu/(hr.ft  degrees F)
>=20
> brass (stock radiators) -  83 degrees
> Aluminum (radiators) - 126
> copper - 218
>=20
> cast iron - 27.7
>=20
> TeriAnn
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> [email-masked]
>=20
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>=20
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il.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
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>=20
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>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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m
>=20
>=20
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>=20
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">For a while, one of the chemical companies w=
as advocating plastic radiators. They even had some on display at an SAE con=
ference. &nbsp;Apparently they tested well. &nbsp;Their argument was that th=
e important factor was the net water to air heat transfer, and that the limi=
ting things were the water to radiator material and then the radiator materi=
al to air, not the radiator material itself, as I recall. They said they cou=
ld mold a radiator into unusual shapes that would enable better vehicle aero=
dynamics with more design freedom in the front end=E2=80=A6.<div>Never went a=
nywhere to my knowledge.</div><div>Phil Gott<br><div><br><br><div dir=3D"ltr=
">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On=
 Jan 4, 2022, at 6:46 PM, rek46 via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br=
><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF=
<div>
<div class=3D"userEdit" style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; f=
ont-size: 10pt; color: #000000;"><span style=3D"color: #000000; font-style: n=
ormal; font-weight: 400;">There is no solder in the fin to tube transfer....=
.the tubes are a Brazed alum. that is 7 to 12 percent outer layer of Silicon=
...depending on whether it is for one side or 2....these ingots are mated to=
gether (1 or 2 side ) with the original 3000 series base ingot ...So you hav=
e a base ingot (about 20") and one or 2 outer ingots(about 2' to 3' per side=
 as spec req.required) stacked up to get your&nbsp; one or 2 side outer laye=
rs... Then they are hot rolled on a reversing mill to several passes to get t=
hin er gauges...which next goes to some 4 stnd cold rolling mills. to get do=
wn to about .80 ...this is now ready to ship to finishig mill....which then w=
ill take about 8 passes to get down to about .006 to .004"....during this pr=
ocess ,you may need to inter-anneal at certain passes,to end up with H-19&nb=
sp; to H -0 TEMPERS for forming ,etc.&nbsp; dependent on customers finish pr=
ocesses, and customer requierments (many)....This is non technical info as r=
eq. by secrecy agreements....BTW...Fin stock is run seperate ly ,and produce=
d to .003" ish&nbsp; &nbsp;to . 0045" ish,plus specials for other reqs......=
..rick<br></span></div>
<div class=3D"userEdit" style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; f=
ont-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"userEdit" style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; f=
ont-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"userEdit" style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; f=
ont-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"userEdit" style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; f=
ont-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">&nbsp;</div>
<br>In a message dated 1/4/2022 5:24:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, fot@autox.=
team.net writes:
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"quotedReply">
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left: blue 2=
px solid;">
<div id=3D"yiv1040277252">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">This is informative=E2=80=A6.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><strong>What material makes the better Radiator: Aluminum o=
r Copper?</strong></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"><a href=3D"https://www.motormouthradio.c=
om/blog/118-what-material-makes-the-better-radiator-aluminum-or-copper" targ=
et=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer">https://www.motormouthradio.com/bl=
og/118-what-material-makes-the-better-radiator-aluminum-or-copper</a></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><strong>An Aluminum or Copper Radiator for Your Car - Car C=
raft Magazine</strong></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"><a href=3D"https://www.motortrend.com/ho=
w-to/ccrp-0211-aluminum-or-copper-radiator-for-your-car/" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"noopener noreferrer">https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/ccrp-0211-alumi=
num-or-copper-radiator-for-your-car/</a></div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"yiv1040277252yqtfd73893" class=3D"yiv1040277252yqt0241680626"><br=
 clear=3D"none">
<blockquote>On Jan 4, 2022, at 12:56 PM, TeriAnn J. Wakeman via Fot &lt;fot@=
autox.team.net&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></blockquote>=

</div>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"yiv1040277252yqtfd57369" class=3D"yiv1040277252yqt0241680626">On 1=
/4/22 11:50 AM, dustin nicholson via Fot wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
<blockquote>I read an interesting article once that said while brass/copper o=
ut performs aluminum, an aluminum radiator will dissipate heat better than b=
rass radiators because of all the leads solder in the seams of the brass. Le=
ad holds the heat and therefore offsets the advantage of the brass. Seems li=
ke reasonable logic but I can=E2=80=99t substantiate it.</blockquote>
<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Why aluminum radiators are better than=
 bass:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Thermal conductivity Btu/(hr.ft&=
nbsp; degrees F)<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">brass (stock radiators=
) -&nbsp; 83 degrees<br clear=3D"none">Aluminum (radiators) - 126<br clear=3D=
"none">copper - 218<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">cast iron - 27.7<br=
 clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">TeriAnn<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"no=
ne">_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"none"><a hre=
f=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer=
">[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a href=3D"htt=
p://www.fot-racing.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer">http:/=
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"yqtfd32995" class=3D"yqt0241680626">_____________________________=
__________________<br clear=3D"none"><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" s=
hape=3D"rect">[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a=
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From: "TeriAnn J. Wakeman via Fot" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 07:28:18 -0800

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On 1/5/22 2:50 AM, Philip Gott wrote:
> For a while, one of the chemical companies was advocating plastic 
> radiators. They even had some on display at an SAE conference. 
>  Apparently they tested well.  Their argument was that the important 
> factor was the net water to air heat transfer, and that the limiting 
> things were the water to radiator material and then the radiator 
> material to air, not the radiator material itself, as I recall. They 
> said they could mold a radiator into unusual shapes that would enable 
> better vehicle aerodynamics with more design freedom in the front end….

Never went anywhere probably due to overheating 😁 😁 😉

But I agree the limiting factor is the engine cast iron to coolant 
boundary because of the very low thermal conductivity of cast iron. 
That's why engines are designed with coolant passages everyplace they 
could make a passage. Why Chevy made 6 cyl cylinder heads with narrower 
cylinder head water passages to reduce coolant flow in the 1970s (so the 
engine would run hotter to achieve SMOG numbers), And why the TR2-4 
engines have a coolant bypass coupled with skirted thermostats. In 
Triumph's case the bypass was to insure some limited coolant flow during 
engine warmup. If you completely block the bypass and the coolant is not 
flowing you often get localized coolant boiling hot sports in the 
cylinder head during engine warmup. This quickly raises the temperature 
at the hot spots causing uneven thermal expansion of the cylinder head, 
increasing the likelihood of cracks being formed in the cylinder head. 
Warmup is a critical time for cylinder heads because of uneven thermal 
expansion. Most if not all radiator anti freeze liquids have chemicals 
that try to increase coolant to metal surface adhesion. Add in chemicals 
like water wetter  attempt to provide better surface adhesion between 
the cast iron and coolant in order to minimize localized hot sports. But 
they don't help when someone blocks off coolant flow during warmup in an 
effort to try and maximize coolant flow after an engine is warmed up.

TeriAnn

-- 

Book - The Essential Guide to Overland Travel in the United States and 
Canada <http://overlandtravel.us>
2 years to write and 38 years of travel and camping to learn what to write

*Because the world beckons and life waits for no one*

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/5/22 2:50 AM, Philip Gott wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      For a while, one of the chemical companies was advocating plastic
      radiators. They even had some on display at an SAE conference.
       Apparently they tested well.  Their argument was that the
      important factor was the net water to air heat transfer, and that
      the limiting things were the water to radiator material and then
      the radiator material to air, not the radiator material itself, as
      I recall. They said they could mold a radiator into unusual shapes
      that would enable better vehicle aerodynamics with more design
      freedom in the front end….
      <div>Never went anywhere to my knowledge.</div>
      <div>Phil Gott<br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>Never went anywhere probably due to overheating 😁 😁 😉</p>
    <p>But I agree the limiting factor is the engine cast iron to
      coolant boundary because of the very low thermal conductivity of
      cast iron. That's why engines are designed with coolant passages
      everyplace they could make a passage. Why Chevy made 6 cyl
      cylinder heads with narrower cylinder head water passages to
      reduce coolant flow in the 1970s (so the engine would run hotter
      to achieve SMOG numbers), And why the TR2-4 engines have a coolant
      bypass coupled with skirted thermostats. In Triumph's case the
      bypass was to insure some limited coolant flow during engine
      warmup. If you completely block the bypass and the coolant is not
      flowing you often get localized coolant boiling hot sports in the
      cylinder head during engine warmup. This quickly raises the
      temperature at the hot spots causing uneven thermal expansion of
      the cylinder head, increasing the likelihood of cracks being
      formed in the cylinder head. Warmup is a critical time for
      cylinder heads because of uneven thermal expansion. Most if not
      all radiator anti freeze liquids have chemicals that try to
      increase coolant to metal surface adhesion. Add in chemicals like
      water wetter  attempt to provide better surface adhesion between
      the cast iron and coolant in order to minimize localized hot
      sports. But they don't help when someone blocks off coolant flow
      during warmup in an effort to try and maximize coolant flow after
      an engine is warmed up.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>TeriAnn</p>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <p align="center"><a href="http://overlandtravel.us">Book - The
          Essential Guide to Overland Travel in the United States and
          Canada</a>
        <br>
        2 years to write and 38 years of travel and camping to learn
        what to write<br>
        <br>
        <b>Because the world beckons and life waits for no one</b></p>
    </div>
  </body>
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