Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 gearbox rebuild

From: Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 15:38:29 -0600

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Agreed. Forwarding to FOT so it makes the archives. That way when I ask this=
 question again in 2 years, someone will remind me to search the archives, a=
gain.=20

Great stuff.=20

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 15, 2021, at 3:22 PM, Bob Kramer <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> This is one of those emails to save.  Great info, especially the part that=
 makes it sound like my brain still works. I remember now that I bought a 2n=
d gear on eBay for a later cluster gear because I didn't have a good later o=
ne even though I did have the cluster. Pretty sure Marcel has that gearbox, p=
robably sitting and replaced with a dog box.
>=20
> I have built 3 CR gear boxes and I did a lot of studying each time, and wa=
s confused along the way.  The TRF Blue TR6 catalog is a tremendous resource=
 in that area.
>=20
> I have a Stag Overdrive gearbox sitting and a CR set new in the box for th=
e next time I need one. It has the longer pilot snout and if I recall (here w=
e go again) the clutch shaft is set up for RHD.=20
>=20
>=20
> Bob Kramer
>=20
>=20
>> On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 1:27 PM Henry Frye wrote:
>> OK, my bad. I replied without looking at the diagram, and just like Bob, r=
elying on the memory these days is sketchy at best! The close ratio gearset c=
onsists of 4 pieces, the new input shaft, which is 4th gear, and the corresp=
onding layshaft gear, plus the two gears that make third. Since the input sh=
aft set drives the layshaft, and it is a different ratio from stock, that's w=
hy the first and second gear ratios change. That funky steel bush that is sh=
own is needed so the set will run with either of the mainshafts, you might n=
eed it, you might not depending on what size the end of the mainshaft is.=20=

>>=20
>> To build the ultimate box, you DO want to start with gearset from a late T=
R6, because that will get you a TKC454, the second gear that uses the steel t=
op hat bush. We like the TKC454 instead of the one that used the bronze top h=
at bush that bronze bush always breaks! However, the replacement bush you ge=
t these days for second gear on the mainshaft is a steel two-piece affair, a=
nd I have built several boxes with that steel bush assembly with good result=
s. I would put that into a race box without hesitation if I could not get my=
 hands on a TKC454.
>>=20
>> Like 15 - 20 years ago I could find an NOS TKC454 every now and again, an=
d somebody even made them for a while, but I never thought those repro gears=
 were all that much to write home about. I don't think the snycros grabbed t=
he cone all that well.
>>=20
>> As far as what you get, forth gear is 1:1, just like stock, so your top e=
nd calculations do not change. C/r second gear is pretty close to stock thir=
d gear, and c/r third is an even split between c/r second and top. We really=
 don't care all that much about the first gear ratio, it's a paddock only ge=
ar. What many guys have found is if you run a 4:10 rear and have a billet bo=
ttom end and have a cam that will make power to 7K, you do not need an overd=
rive for the tracks we run. If you run one of those tracks like the old TWS w=
here you actually get to maximum velocity and just run at that speed, well, y=
ou might need an overdrive! I used OD in my TR250 because I do not run a bil=
let crank in that car, and shift at 6000. That setup has worked VERY well fo=
r me, the car has taken a handful of firsts, and countless second place fini=
shes. You want the 22% overdrive from an early car, not the 25 or 28%, you w=
ill find you are losing too many revs to be able to accelerate!=20
>>=20
>> The c/r gearset works great in a Stag case, the reason they are saying no=
t suitable for Stag (and Sprint) is the input shaft length is different. The=
 Stag case has the same bellhousing specs, it's just the inside of the gear c=
ase that is machined differently to accept the improved layshaft design, the=
 roller bearings replacing thrust washers and 3 bearing on the countershaft i=
nstead of 2. Yeah, I know the new trick thing to do is to bore out the old l=
ayshafts for to accept the third countershaft bearing, that's all well and g=
ood, but the layshaft will still be banging on thrust washers instead of rol=
ler bearings!=20
>>=20
>> The 1X23 spline is a standard item, if you are running a Tilton or Quarte=
rmaster they will be able to supply your friction disks with that spline. I r=
un stock TR4A-6 pressure plates, so I get my clutches made at California Clu=
tch. Simply order whatever the diameter is (sorry, no notes handy), and tell=
 him the 1X23 spline, whether or not you want springs (I never get springs, j=
ust the solid disc) and what friction material. I go 6 paddles, full metalli=
c. Every couple seasons you put a new pressure plate on, it's a wear item. T=
he setup will take a little sliding with no ill effects, just keep all clutc=
h sliding to a minimum and you will be fine.
>>=20
>> I always reuse good OEM syncros on my race boxes, if the donor box has OE=
M syncros I keep them matched up so they go back on the same gear. Obviously=
, they need to measure a good, sloppy 30 thou to be good. I am waiting to se=
e of Rick Parent makes these new 21st century syncros for the big TR boxes, t=
hat could be a game changer!
>>=20
>> Probably way more that you were asking for, but I was on a roll. Hope thi=
s helps!
>>=20
>> Henry Frye
>>=20
>> From: Greg Blake <[email-masked]>
>> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:30 AM
>> Cc: Bob Kramer <[email-masked]>
>> Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 gearbox rebuild
>> =20
>> Henry,
>>=20
>> Do you get a new 2 gear pair with the close ratio set?  I thought you got=
 a new input gear, 3rd gear pair, and 4th gear pair.=20
>>=20
>> That=E2=80=99s what I read in the Moss Europe catalog, not saying that is=
 accurate though. I=E2=80=99ve always been curious as to what all the close r=
atio set includes and the different gear ratios it produces.=20
>>=20
>> Here is a screen shot from the Moss description.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>=20
>>> On Nov 15, 2021, at 8:42 AM, Henry Frye wrote:
>>>=20
>>> =EF=BB=BF
>>> I am not sure what starting with late TR6 box gets you if you are going t=
o use a close ratio gearset. The big difference is the improved second gear,=
 TKC454 if memory serves, but you get a new second gear with the close ratio=
 kit. You want to convert all the bushes on the mainshaft to steel, so that i=
s easy and cheap.
>>>=20
>>> I believe the ultimate TR race gearbox gets built off a Stag core with i=
ts layshaft bearings vs thrust washers. The close ratio kit drops right in, w=
ith the correct mainshaft you can run either an A-type or J-type OD. I ran m=
y TR250 racer with an A-type for several seasons, it took an amazing amount o=
f abuse and the OD has never needed a thing.=20
>>>=20
>>> Per JK, all clearances set at the bottom of the range so the gears have m=
inimal wiggle room on the mainshaft.
>>>=20
>>> I run Brad Penn 80w90 gear oil, after every race weekend I pull the gear=
box drainplug and let a cup or so drain. I inspect and clean the magnetic dr=
ain plug, replace the plug, then remove the big OD drain plug to check the s=
creen for debris. Reinstall letting as little fluid drain as possible. The t=
op the oil back up, usually a bit more than half a quart. This keeps an eye o=
n the condition of the internal bits, if you find anything scary address it n=
ow!
>>>=20
>>> That's about it, but I must admit I put a T5 in the 250 this spring. Not=
 sold on it lowering lap times, but it sure shifts fast! The TR3 still runs a=
 Stag box, close ratio gears without OD.=20
>>>=20
>>> Henry Frye
>>> Sent from phone
>>> From: Bob Kramer <[email-masked]>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 7:41:19 AM
>>> Cc: Greg Blake <[email-masked]>
>>> Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 gearbox rebuild
>>> =20
>>> Henry=20
>>>=20
>>> Thanks for the additional info. My memory never was that great!   Greg, I=
 didn't realize that you were still running stock gears in the TR3.  The end=
urance TR6 has the close ratio set.  It is easiest to start with a 73 or lat=
er TR6 box.=20
>>> =20
>>> Bob Kramer
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 5:27 AM Henry Frye wrote:
>>> Hey Bob,
>>>=20
>>> I believe JK's magic box was with an OD, and gave you proper gearsplits b=
etween 2, 2OD, 3, 3OD and 4. I was not aware that he came up with anything t=
hat didn't use the OD, because that is what we use the close ratio gearset f=
or!
>>>=20
>>> Greg, are you still using stock TR gearsets, not the close ratio gearset=
? The close ratio is what everybody up here races with, Ken Gillanders used t=
o say that one change is worth a couple seconds at any track. He was right. I=
t eliminates the huge RPM drop between 3 and 4.
>>>=20
>>> https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID600088=20
>>>=20
>>> Henry Frye
>>> Triumph Technology Consultants
>>> 860.508.3118 (c)
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Fot <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of Bob Kramer via Fot
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2021 8:24 PM
>>> To: Greg Blake <[email-masked]>
>>> Cc: Fot <[email-masked]>
>>> Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 gearbox rebuild
>>>=20
>>> JK Jackson had that all figured out for a non overdrive box with the goa=
l to get a better 2-3 spread.
>>>=20
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>=20
>>> > On Nov 14, 2021, at 6:36 PM, Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]> w=
rote:
>>> >=20
>>> > =EF=BB=BFI=E2=80=99ve been inspecting the gears I took out of my race c=
ar. Second gear appears to have the slightest blue tinge to its color now. I=
s there a way to check if there is some damage caused by over heating?  Ever=
ything seems good from a tolerance perspective, just concerned about the sli=
ght blue color.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Related note. Is there a combination of gears I can use out of differe=
nt gearboxes to give a better split between 3, 3OD, and 4th?  Right now I ju=
st skip 3OD because it is very close to 4th. I have a ton of gearboxes layin=
g around, so if there is a combination I should try I=E2=80=99d love to give=
 it a shot.=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Sent from my iPhone
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > [email-masked]
>>> >=20
>>> > http://www.fot-racing.com
>>> >=20
>>> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> > Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/f=
ot
>>> > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/rkramer5=
[email-masked]
>>> >=20
>>> >=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> [email-masked]
>>>=20
>>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>>>=20
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot=

>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/yellow04@t=
r4racer.com
>>>=20
>>>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Agreed. Forwarding to FOT so it makes the a=
rchives. That way when I ask this question again in 2 years, someone will re=
mind me to search the archives, again.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Great stuff.=
&nbsp;<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br=
><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Nov 15, 2021, at 3:22 PM, Bob Kramer &lt;rkram=
[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr">This is one of those emails&nbs=
p;to save.&nbsp; Great info, especially the&nbsp;part that makes it sound li=
ke my brain still works. I remember now that I bought a 2nd gear on eBay for=
 a later cluster gear because I didn't have a good later one even though I d=
id have the cluster. Pretty sure Marcel has that gearbox, probably sitting a=
nd replaced with a dog box.<div><br></div><div>I have built 3 CR gear boxes a=
nd I did a lot of studying each time, and was confused along the way.&nbsp; T=
he TRF Blue TR6 catalog is a tremendous resource in that area.<div><br></div=
><div>I have a Stag Overdrive gearbox sitting and a CR set new in the box fo=
r the next time I need one. It has the longer pilot snout and if I recall (h=
ere we go again) the clutch shaft&nbsp;is set up for RHD.&nbsp;<br><div><br>=
</div><div><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"=
 data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Kramer</div></div><=
/div><br></div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"=
ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 1:27 PM Henry Frye &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:m"></a>&gt; wrote:<br></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
OK, my bad. I replied without looking at the diagram, and just like Bob, rel=
ying on the memory these days is sketchy at best!&nbsp;<span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">The close ratio=
 gearset consists
 of 4 pieces, the new input shaft, which is 4th gear, and the corresponding l=
ayshaft gear, plus the two gears that make third. Since the input shaft set d=
rives the layshaft, and it is a different ratio from stock, that's why the f=
irst and second gear ratios
 change. That funky steel bush that is shown is needed so the set will run w=
ith either of the mainshafts, you might need it, you might not depending on w=
hat size the end of the mainshaft is.&nbsp;</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
To build the ultimate box, you DO want to start with gearset from a late TR6=
, because that will get you a TKC454, the second gear that uses the steel to=
p hat bush. We like the TKC454 instead of the one that used the bronze top h=
at bush that bronze bush always
 breaks! However, the replacement bush you get these days for second gear on=
 the mainshaft is a steel two-piece affair, and I have built several boxes w=
ith that steel bush assembly with good results. I would put that into a race=
 box without hesitation if I
 could not get my hands on a TKC454.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Like 15 - 20 years ago I could find an NOS TKC454 every now and again, and s=
omebody even made them for a while, but I never thought those repro gears we=
re all that much to write home about. I don't think the snycros grabbed the c=
one all that well.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
As far as what you get, forth gear is 1:1, just like stock, so your top end c=
alculations do not change. C/r second gear is pretty close to stock third ge=
ar, and c/r third is an even split between c/r second and top.&nbsp;<span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">We=

 really don't care all that much about the first gear ratio, it's a paddock o=
nly gear.<span>&nbsp;What many guys have found is if you run a 4:10 rear and=
 have a billet bottom end and have a cam that will make power to 7K, you do n=
ot need an overdrive for the tracks
 we run. If you run one of those tracks like the old TWS where you actually g=
et to maximum velocity and just run at that speed, well, you might need an o=
verdrive! I used OD in my TR250 because I do not run a billet crank in that c=
ar, and shift at 6000. That
 setup has worked VERY well for me, the car has taken a handful of firsts, a=
nd countless second place finishes. You want the 22% overdrive from an early=
 car, not the 25 or 28%, you will find you are losing too many revs to be ab=
le to accelerate!&nbsp;</span></span></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)">
The c/r gearset works great in a Stag case, the reason they are saying not s=
uitable for Stag (and Sprint) is the input shaft length is different. The St=
ag case has the same bellhousing specs, it's just the inside of the gear cas=
e that is machined differently
 to accept the improved layshaft design, the roller bearings replacing thrus=
t washers and 3 bearing on the countershaft instead of 2. Yeah, I know the n=
ew trick thing to do is to bore out the old layshafts for to accept the thir=
d countershaft bearing, that's
 all well and good, but the layshaft will still be banging on thrust washers=
 instead of roller bearings!&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div>The 1X23 spline is a standard item, if you are running a Tilton or Quar=
termaster they will be able to supply your friction disks with that spline. I=
 run stock TR4A-6 pressure plates, so I get my clutches made at California C=
lutch. Simply order whatever
 the diameter is (sorry, no notes handy), and tell him the 1X23 spline, whet=
her or not you want springs (I never get springs, just the solid disc) and w=
hat friction material. I go 6 paddles, full metallic. Every couple seasons y=
ou put a new pressure plate on,
 it's a wear item. The setup will take a little sliding with no ill effects,=
 just keep all clutch sliding to a minimum and you will be fine.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I always reuse good OEM syncros on my race boxes, if the donor box has O=
EM syncros I keep them matched up so they go back on the same gear. Obviousl=
y, they need to measure a good, sloppy 30 thou to be good. I am waiting to s=
ee of Rick Parent makes these
 new 21st century syncros for the big TR boxes, that could be a game changer=
!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Probably way more that you were asking for, but I was on a roll. Hope t=
his helps!</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8137072962237484616Signature">
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Henry Frye</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Triumph Technology Consultants</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)">
860.508.3118 - mobile</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8137072962237484616appendonsend"></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8137072962237484616divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D=
"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b=
> Greg Blake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank"=
>[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 15, 2021 10:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Henry Frye &lt;
&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Bob Kramer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_=
blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] TR6 gearbox rebuild</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Henry,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Do you get a new 2 gear pair with the close ratio set?&nbsp; I thought y=
ou got a new input gear, 3rd gear pair, and 4th gear pair.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That=E2=80=99s what I read in the Moss Europe catalog, not saying that i=
s accurate though. I=E2=80=99ve always been curious as to what all the close=
 ratio set includes and the different gear ratios it produces.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here is a screen shot from the Moss description.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><img src=3D"cid:17d2574b7fea74afaf01"><br>
<br>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Nov 15, 2021, at 8:42 AM, Henry Frye &lt;
>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
<div>I am not sure what starting with late TR6 box gets you if you are going=
 to use a close ratio gearset. The big difference is the improved second gea=
r, TKC454 if memory serves, but you get a new second gear with the close rat=
io kit. You want to convert all
 the bushes on the mainshaft to steel, so that is easy and cheap.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I believe the ultimate TR race gearbox gets built off a St=
ag core with its layshaft bearings vs thrust washers. The close ratio kit dr=
ops right in, with the correct mainshaft you can run either an A-type or J-t=
ype OD. I ran my TR250 racer with
 an A-type for several seasons, it took an amazing amount of abuse and the O=
D has never needed a thing.&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Per JK, all clearances set at the bottom of the range so t=
he gears have minimal wiggle room on the mainshaft.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I run Brad Penn 80w90 gear oil, after every race weekend I=
 pull the gearbox drainplug and let a cup or so drain. I inspect and clean t=
he magnetic drain plug, replace the plug, then remove the big OD drain plug t=
o check the screen for debris.
 Reinstall letting as little fluid drain as possible. The top the oil back u=
p, usually a bit more than half a quart. This keeps an eye on the condition o=
f the internal bits, if you find anything scary address it now!</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">That's about it, but I must admit I put a T5 in the 250 th=
is spring. Not sold on it lowering lap times, but it sure shifts fast! The T=
R3 still runs a Stag box, close ratio gears without OD.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8137072962237484616x_ms-outlook-mobile-signature">Henry Fry=
e
<div dir=3D"auto">Sent from phone</div>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"gmail-m_8137072962237484616x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font fac=
e=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:=
</b> Bob Kramer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank"=
>[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 15, 2021 7:41:19 AM<br>
<b>
<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Greg Blake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D=
"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] TR6 gearbox rebuild</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Henry&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for the additional info. My memory never was that great!&nbsp; &=
nbsp;Greg, I didn't realize that you were still running stock gears in the T=
R3.&nbsp; The endurance TR6 has the close&nbsp;ratio set.&nbsp; It is easies=
t to start with a 73 or later&nbsp;TR6 box.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;<br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Kramer</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 5:27 AM Henry Frye &lt;
&gt; wro=
te:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Hey Bob,<br>
<br>
I believe JK's magic box was with an OD, and gave you proper gearsplits betw=
een 2, 2OD, 3, 3OD and 4. I was not aware that he came up with anything that=
 didn't use the OD, because that is what we use the close ratio gearset for!=
<br>
<br>
Greg, are you still using stock TR gearsets, not the close ratio gearset? Th=
e close ratio is what everybody up here races with, Ken Gillanders used to s=
ay that one change is worth a couple seconds at any track. He was right. It e=
liminates the huge RPM drop
 between 3 and 4.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID600088" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID600088</a>
<br>
<br>
Henry Frye<br>
Triumph Technology Consultants<br>
860.508.3118 (c)<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank=
">[email-masked]</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Bob Kramer via Fot<br>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2021 8:24 PM<br>
To: Greg Blake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blan=
k">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">fot@auto=
x.team.net</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 gearbox rebuild<br>
<br>
JK Jackson had that all figured out for a non overdrive box with the goal to=
 get a better 2-3 spread.<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone<br>
<br>
&gt; On Nov 14, 2021, at 6:36 PM, Greg Blake via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:f=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =EF=BB=BFI=E2=80=99ve been inspecting the gears I took out of my race c=
ar. Second gear appears to have the slightest blue tinge to its color now. I=
s there a way to check if there is some damage caused by over heating?&nbsp;=
 Everything seems good from a tolerance perspective,
 just concerned about the slight blue color. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Related note. Is there a combination of gears I can use out of differen=
t gearboxes to give a better split between 3, 3OD, and 4th?&nbsp; Right now I=
 just skip 3OD because it is very close to 4th. I have a ton of gearboxes la=
ying around, so if there is a combination
 I should try I=E2=80=99d love to give it a shot. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Sent from my iPhone<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked].=
net</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">
&gt; Archive: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">
http://autox.team.net/archive</a> <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/f=
ot" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br>
&gt; Unsubscribe/Manage: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fo=
t/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</=
a><br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://www.fot-racing.com</a><br>
<br>
t=3D"_blank">
Archive: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
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/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
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<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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--===============5245994189199519471==--

---

From: fubog1 via Fot <[email-masked]> "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:43:43 +0000 (UTC)

------=_Part_2265487_1540918167.1637073824079
	boundary="----=_Part_2265485_678326633.1637073824003"

------=_Part_2265485_678326633.1637073824003
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 Very good write-up Henry!How I long for the days of the blue & white box m=
arked TKC454...

Glen Efinger
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]>
To: Bob Kramer <[email-masked]>
Cc: Fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Mon, Nov 15, 2021 4:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 gearbox rebuild

Agreed. Forwarding to FOT so it makes the archives. That way when I ask thi=
s question again in 2 years, someone will remind me to search the archives,=
 again.=C2=A0
Great stuff.=C2=A0

Sent from my iPhone

=EF=BB=BFThis is one of those emails=C2=A0to save.=C2=A0 Great info, especi=
ally the=C2=A0part that makes it sound like my brain still works. I remembe=
r now that I bought a 2nd gear on eBay for a later cluster gear because I d=
idn't have a good later one even though I did have the cluster. Pretty sure=
 Marcel has that gearbox, probably sitting and replaced with a dog box.
I have built 3 CR gear boxes and I did a lot of studying each time, and was=
 confused along the way.=C2=A0 The TRF Blue TR6 catalog is a tremendous res=
ource in that area.
I have a Stag Overdrive gearbox sitting and a CR set new in the box for the=
 next time I need one. It has the longer pilot snout and if I recall (here =
we go again) the clutch shaft=C2=A0is set up for RHD.=C2=A0

Bob Kramer

OK, my bad. I replied without looking at the diagram, and just like Bob, re=
lying on the memory these days is sketchy at best!=C2=A0The close ratio gea=
rset consists of 4 pieces, the new input shaft, which is 4th gear, and the =
corresponding layshaft gear, plus the two gears that make third. Since the =
input shaft set drives the layshaft, and it is a different ratio from stock=
, that's why the first and second gear ratios change. That funky steel bush=
 that is shown is needed so the set will run with either of the mainshafts,=
 you might need it, you might not depending on what size the end of the mai=
nshaft is.=C2=A0
To build the ultimate box, you DO want to start with gearset from a late TR=
6, because that will get you a TKC454, the second gear that uses the steel =
top hat bush. We like the TKC454 instead of the one that used the bronze to=
p hat bush that bronze bush always breaks! However, the replacement bush yo=
u get these days for second gear on the mainshaft is a steel two-piece affa=
ir, and I have built several boxes with that steel bush assembly with good =
results. I would put that into a race box without hesitation if I could not=
 get my hands on a TKC454.
Like 15 - 20 years ago I could find an NOS TKC454 every now and again, and =
somebody even made them for a while, but I never thought those repro gears =
were all that much to write home about. I don't think the snycros grabbed t=
he cone all that well.
As far as what you get, forth gear is 1:1, just like stock, so your top end=
 calculations do not change. C/r second gear is pretty close to stock third=
 gear, and c/r third is an even split between c/r second and top.=C2=A0We r=
eally don't care all that much about the first gear ratio, it's a paddock o=
nly gear.=C2=A0What many guys have found is if you run a 4:10 rear and have=
 a billet bottom end and have a cam that will make power to 7K, you do not =
need an overdrive for the tracks we run. If you run one of those tracks lik=
e the old TWS where you actually get to maximum velocity and just run at th=
at speed, well, you might need an overdrive! I used OD in my TR250 because =
I do not run a billet crank in that car, and shift at 6000. That setup has =
worked VERY well for me, the car has taken a handful of firsts, and countle=
ss second place finishes. You want the 22% overdrive from an early car, not=
 the 25 or 28%, you will find you are losing too many revs to be able to ac=
celerate!=C2=A0
The c/r gearset works great in a Stag case, the reason they are saying not =
suitable for Stag (and Sprint) is the input shaft length is different. The =
Stag case has the same bellhousing specs, it's just the inside of the gear =
case that is machined differently to accept the improved layshaft design, t=
he roller bearings replacing thrust washers and 3 bearing on the countersha=
ft instead of 2. Yeah, I know the new trick thing to do is to bore out the =
old layshafts for to accept the third countershaft bearing, that's all well=
 and good, but the layshaft will still be banging on thrust washers instead=
 of roller bearings!=C2=A0
The 1X23 spline is a standard item, if you are running a Tilton or Quarterm=
aster they will be able to supply your friction disks with that spline. I r=
un stock TR4A-6 pressure plates, so I get my clutches made at California Cl=
utch. Simply order whatever the diameter is (sorry, no notes handy), and te=
ll him the 1X23 spline, whether or not you want springs (I never get spring=
s, just the solid disc) and what friction material. I go 6 paddles, full me=
tallic. Every couple seasons you put a new pressure plate on, it's a wear i=
tem. The setup will take a little sliding with no ill effects, just keep al=
l clutch sliding to a minimum and you will be fine.
I always reuse good OEM syncros on my race boxes, if the donor box has OEM =
syncros I keep them matched up so they go back on the same gear. Obviously,=
 they need to measure a good, sloppy 30 thou to be good. I am waiting to se=
e of Rick Parent makes these new 21st century syncros for the big TR boxes,=
 that could be a game changer!
Probably way more that you were asking for, but I was on a roll. Hope this =
helps!
Henry FryeTriumph Technology Consultants860.508.3118 - mobile
From: Greg Blake <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:30 AM
To: Henry Frye 
Cc: Bob Kramer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 gearbox rebuild=C2=A0Henry,
Do you get a new 2 gear pair with the close ratio set?=C2=A0 I thought you =
got a new input gear, 3rd gear pair, and 4th gear pair.=C2=A0
That=E2=80=99s what I read in the Moss Europe catalog, not saying that is a=
ccurate though. I=E2=80=99ve always been curious as to what all the close r=
atio set includes and the different gear ratios it produces.=C2=A0
Here is a screen shot from the Moss description.=C2=A0

Sent from my iPhone

=EF=BB=BFI am not sure what starting with late TR6 box gets you if you are =
going to use a close ratio gearset. The big difference is the improved seco=
nd gear, TKC454 if memory serves, but you get a new second gear with the cl=
ose ratio kit. You want to convert all the bushes on the mainshaft to steel=
, so that is easy and cheap.
I believe the ultimate TR race gearbox gets built off a Stag core with its =
layshaft bearings vs thrust washers. The close ratio kit drops right in, wi=
th the correct mainshaft you can run either an A-type or J-type OD. I ran m=
y TR250 racer with an A-type for several seasons, it took an amazing amount=
 of abuse and the OD has never needed a thing.=C2=A0
Per JK, all clearances set at the bottom of the range so the gears have min=
imal wiggle room on the mainshaft.
I run Brad Penn 80w90 gear oil, after every race weekend I pull the gearbox=
 drainplug and let a cup or so drain. I inspect and clean the magnetic drai=
n plug, replace the plug, then remove the big OD drain plug to check the sc=
reen for debris. Reinstall letting as little fluid drain as possible. The t=
op the oil back up, usually a bit more than half a quart. This keeps an eye=
 on the condition of the internal bits, if you find anything scary address =
it now!
That's about it, but I must admit I put a T5 in the 250 this spring. Not so=
ld on it lowering lap times, but it sure shifts fast! The TR3 still runs a =
Stag box, close ratio gears without OD.=C2=A0
Henry FryeSent from phoneFrom: Bob Kramer <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 7:41:19 AM
Cc: Greg Blake <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 gearbox rebuild=C2=A0Henry=C2=A0
Thanks for the additional info. My memory never was that great!=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Greg, I didn't realize that you were still running stock gears in the TR=
3.=C2=A0 The endurance TR6 has the close=C2=A0ratio set.=C2=A0 It is easies=
t to start with a 73 or later=C2=A0TR6 box.=C2=A0=C2=A0
Bob Kramer

Hey Bob,

I believe JK's magic box was with an OD, and gave you proper gearsplits bet=
ween 2, 2OD, 3, 3OD and 4. I was not aware that he came up with anything th=
at didn't use the OD, because that is what we use the close ratio gearset f=
or!

Greg, are you still using stock TR gearsets, not the close ratio gearset? T=
he close ratio is what everybody up here races with, Ken Gillanders used to=
 say that one change is worth a couple seconds at any track. He was right. =
It eliminates the huge RPM drop between 3 and 4.

https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID600088

Henry Frye

-----Original Message-----
From: Fot <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of Bob Kramer via Fot
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2021 8:24 PM
To: Greg Blake <[email-masked]>
Cc: Fot <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 gearbox rebuild

JK Jackson had that all figured out for a non overdrive box with the goal t=
o get a better 2-3 spread.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 14, 2021, at 6:36 PM, Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]> wrot=
e:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFI=E2=80=99ve been inspecting the gears I took out of my race car=
. Second gear appears to have the slightest blue tinge to its color now. Is=
 there a way to check if there is some damage caused by over heating?=C2=A0=
 Everything seems good from a tolerance perspective, just concerned about t=
he slight blue color.=20
>=20
> Related note. Is there a combination of gears I can use out of different =
gearboxes to give a better split between 3, 3OD, and 4th?=C2=A0 Right now I=
 just skip 3OD because it is very close to 4th. I have a ton of gearboxes l=
aying around, so if there is a combination I should try I=E2=80=99d love to=
 give it a shot.=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/rkramer56@g=
mail.com

acer.com

m

------=_Part_2265485_678326633.1637073824003
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div style=3D"color:black;font: 10pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"2">Very good write-up Henry!</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">How I long for the days of the blue &amp; white box m=
arked TKC454...<br>
</font></div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div><font size=3D"2">Glen Efinger</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
 size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Greg Blake via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: Bob Kramer &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Cc: Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; 
<br>
Sent: Mon, Nov 15, 2021 4:38 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 gearbox rebuild<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"yiv6947074793">
<div>Agreed. Forwarding to FOT so it makes the archives. That way when I as=
k this question again in 2 years, someone will remind me to search the arch=
ives, again.&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>

<div>Great stuff.&nbsp;<br>
<br>

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Nov 15, 2021, at 3:22 PM, Bob Kramer &lt;rkram=
[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
<div dir=3D"ltr">This is one of those emails&nbsp;to save.&nbsp; Great info=
, especially the&nbsp;part that makes it sound like my brain still works. I=
 remember now that I bought a 2nd gear on eBay for a later cluster gear bec=
ause I didn't have a good later one even though I did have the cluster. Pre=
tty sure Marcel has that gearbox, probably sitting and replaced with a dog =
box.
<div><br>
</div>

<div>I have built 3 CR gear boxes and I did a lot of studying each time, an=
d was confused along the way.&nbsp; The TRF Blue TR6 catalog is a tremendou=
s resource in that area.
<div><br>
</div>

<div>I have a Stag Overdrive gearbox sitting and a CR set new in the box fo=
r the next time I need one. It has the longer pilot snout and if I recall (=
here we go again) the clutch shaft&nbsp;is set up for RHD.&nbsp;<br>

<div><br>
</div>

<div><br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"yiv6947074793gmail_signature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Kramer</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>

<div class=3D"yiv6947074793gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"yiv6947074793gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at =
1:27 PM Henry Frye &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"m=
ailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:henry@henryfrye=
.com">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex;" class=3D"yiv6947074793gmail_quote">

<div dir=3D"ltr">

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">
OK, my bad. I replied without looking at the diagram, and just like Bob, re=
lying on the memory these days is sketchy at best!&nbsp;<span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline;">The close r=
atio gearset consists
 of 4 pieces, the new input shaft, which is 4th gear, and the corresponding=
 layshaft gear, plus the two gears that make third. Since the input shaft s=
et drives the layshaft, and it is a different ratio from stock, that's why =
the first and second gear ratios
 change. That funky steel bush that is shown is needed so the set will run =
with either of the mainshafts, you might need it, you might not depending o=
n what size the end of the mainshaft is.&nbsp;</span></div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">
<br>

</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">
To build the ultimate box, you DO want to start with gearset from a late TR=
6, because that will get you a TKC454, the second gear that uses the steel =
top hat bush. We like the TKC454 instead of the one that used the bronze to=
p hat bush that bronze bush always
 breaks! However, the replacement bush you get these days for second gear o=
n the mainshaft is a steel two-piece affair, and I have built several boxes=
 with that steel bush assembly with good results. I would put that into a r=
ace box without hesitation if I
 could not get my hands on a TKC454.</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">
<br>

</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">
Like 15 - 20 years ago I could find an NOS TKC454 every now and again, and =
somebody even made them for a while, but I never thought those repro gears =
were all that much to write home about. I don't think the snycros grabbed t=
he cone all that well.</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">
<br>

</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">
As far as what you get, forth gear is 1:1, just like stock, so your top end=
 calculations do not change. C/r second gear is pretty close to stock third=
 gear, and c/r third is an even split between c/r second and top.&nbsp;<spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inlin=
e;">We
 really don't care all that much about the first gear ratio, it's a paddock=
 only gear.<span>&nbsp;What many guys have found is if you run a 4:10 rear =
and have a billet bottom end and have a cam that will make power to 7K, you=
 do not need an overdrive for the tracks
 we run. If you run one of those tracks like the old TWS where you actually=
 get to maximum velocity and just run at that speed, well, you might need a=
n overdrive! I used OD in my TR250 because I do not run a billet crank in t=
hat car, and shift at 6000. That
 setup has worked VERY well for me, the car has taken a handful of firsts, =
and countless second place finishes. You want the 22% overdrive from an ear=
ly car, not the 25 or 28%, you will find you are losing too many revs to be=
 able to accelerate!&nbsp;</span></span></div>

<div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
<br>

</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
The c/r gearset works great in a Stag case, the reason they are saying not =
suitable for Stag (and Sprint) is the input shaft length is different. The =
Stag case has the same bellhousing specs, it's just the inside of the gear =
case that is machined differently
 to accept the improved layshaft design, the roller bearings replacing thru=
st washers and 3 bearing on the countershaft instead of 2. Yeah, I know the=
 new trick thing to do is to bore out the old layshafts for to accept the t=
hird countershaft bearing, that's
 all well and good, but the layshaft will still be banging on thrust washer=
s instead of roller bearings!&nbsp;</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
<br>

</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">

<div>The 1X23 spline is a standard item, if you are running a Tilton or Qua=
rtermaster they will be able to supply your friction disks with that spline=
. I run stock TR4A-6 pressure plates, so I get my clutches made at Californ=
ia Clutch. Simply order whatever
 the diameter is (sorry, no notes handy), and tell him the 1X23 spline, whe=
ther or not you want springs (I never get springs, just the solid disc) and=
 what friction material. I go 6 paddles, full metallic. Every couple season=
s you put a new pressure plate on,
 it's a wear item. The setup will take a little sliding with no ill effects=
, just keep all clutch sliding to a minimum and you will be fine.</div>

<div><br>

</div>

<div>I always reuse good OEM syncros on my race boxes, if the donor box has=
 OEM syncros I keep them matched up so they go back on the same gear. Obvio=
usly, they need to measure a good, sloppy 30 thou to be good. I am waiting =
to see of Rick Parent makes these
 new 21st century syncros for the big TR boxes, that could be a game change=
r!</div>

<div><br>

</div>

<div>Probably way more that you were asking for, but I was on a roll. Hope =
this helps!</div>

</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
<br>

</div>

<div id=3D"yiv6947074793gmail-m_8137072962237484616Signature">

<div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
Henry Frye</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
Triumph Technology Consultants</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
860.508.3118 - mobile</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<div>

<div id=3D"yiv6947074793gmail-m_8137072962237484616appendonsend"></div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">
<br>

</div>

<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%;">

<div id=3D"yiv6947074793gmail-m_8137072962237484616divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"lt=
r"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt;" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#0=
00000"><b>From:</b> Greg Blake &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" =
ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

<b>To:</b> Henry Frye &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:henry@henr=
yfrye.com">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

<b>Cc:</b> Bob Kramer &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:rkramer56@=
gmail.com">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

</div>

<div>Henry,

<div><br>

</div>

<div>Do you get a new 2 gear pair with the close ratio set?&nbsp; I thought=
 you got a new input gear, 3rd gear pair, and 4th gear pair.&nbsp;</div>

<div><br>

</div>

<div>That=E2=80=99s what I read in the Moss Europe catalog, not saying that=
 is accurate though. I=E2=80=99ve always been curious as to what all the cl=
ose ratio set includes and the different gear ratios it produces.&nbsp;</di=
v>

<div><br>

</div>

<div><br>

</div>

<div><img src=3D"cid:bR0YT4WTPxFErsqFmIRd" yahoo_partid=3D"1.2.2"><br>

<br>

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>

<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Nov 15, 2021, at 8:42 AM, Henry Frye &lt;<a re=
l=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" t=
arget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a=

<br>

</blockquote>
</div>

<div>I am not sure what starting with late TR6 box gets you if you are goin=
g to use a close ratio gearset. The big difference is the improved second g=
ear, TKC454 if memory serves, but you get a new second gear with the close =
ratio kit. You want to convert all
 the bushes on the mainshaft to steel, so that is easy and cheap.</div>

<div><br>

</div>

<div>I believe the ultimate TR race gearbox gets built off a Stag core with=
 its layshaft bearings vs thrust washers. The close ratio kit drops right i=
n, with the correct mainshaft you can run either an A-type or J-type OD. I =
ran my TR250 racer with
 an A-type for several seasons, it took an amazing amount of abuse and the =
OD has never needed a thing.&nbsp;</div>

<div><br>

</div>

<div>Per JK, all clearances set at the bottom of the range so the gears hav=
e minimal wiggle room on the mainshaft.</div>

<div><br>

</div>

<div>I run Brad Penn 80w90 gear oil, after every race weekend I pull the ge=
arbox drainplug and let a cup or so drain. I inspect and clean the magnetic=
 drain plug, replace the plug, then remove the big OD drain plug to check t=
he screen for debris.
 Reinstall letting as little fluid drain as possible. The top the oil back =
up, usually a bit more than half a quart. This keeps an eye on the conditio=
n of the internal bits, if you find anything scary address it now!</div>

<div><br>

</div>

<div>That's about it, but I must admit I put a T5 in the 250 this spring. N=
ot sold on it lowering lap times, but it sure shifts fast! The TR3 still ru=
ns a Stag box, close ratio gears without OD.&nbsp;</div>

<div><br>

</div>

<div id=3D"yiv6947074793gmail-m_8137072962237484616x_ms-outlook-mobile-sign=
ature">Henry Frye

<div>Sent from phone</div>

</div>

<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%;">

<div id=3D"yiv6947074793gmail-m_8137072962237484616x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"=
ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt;" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"=
#000000"><b>From:</b> Bob Kramer &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer=
" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:r=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

<b>To:</b> Henry Frye &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:henry@henr=
yfrye.com">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

<b>Cc:</b> Greg Blake &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:gblake5=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

</div>

<div>

<div><br>

</div>

<div>Thanks for the additional info. My memory never was that great!&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Greg, I didn't realize that you were still running stock gears in the=
 TR3.&nbsp; The endurance TR6 has the close&nbsp;ratio set.&nbsp; It is eas=
iest to start with a 73 or later&nbsp;TR6 box.&nbsp;</div>

<div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">

</div>

</div>

<br>

</div>

</div>

<br>

<div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 5:27 AM Henry Frye &lt;<a rel=3D"n=
ofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">
Hey Bob,<br>

<br>

I believe JK's magic box was with an OD, and gave you proper gearsplits bet=
ween 2, 2OD, 3, 3OD and 4. I was not aware that he came up with anything th=
at didn't use the OD, because that is what we use the close ratio gearset f=
or!<br>

<br>

Greg, are you still using stock TR gearsets, not the close ratio gearset? T=
he close ratio is what everybody up here races with, Ken Gillanders used to=
 say that one change is worth a couple seconds at any track. He was right. =
It eliminates the huge RPM drop
 between 3 and 4.<br>

<br>

<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://r=
immerbros.com/Item--i-GRID600088">https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID600088=
</a>
<br>

<br>

Henry Frye<br>

860.508.3118 (c)<br>

<br>

From: Fot &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:fot=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox=
.team.net">[email-masked]</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Bob Kramer via F=
ot<br>

To: Greg Blake &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailt=
o:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:gblake58tr3@iclo=
ud.com">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

Cc: Fot &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:fot@a=
utox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">fot@aut=
ox.team.net</a>&gt;<br>

<br>

JK Jackson had that all figured out for a non overdrive box with the goal t=
o get a better 2-3 spread.<br>

<br>

Sent from my iPhone<br>

<br>

&gt; On Nov 14, 2021, at 6:36 PM, Greg Blake via Fot &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow=
 noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blan=
k" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>

&gt; <br>

&gt; =EF=BB=BFI=E2=80=99ve been inspecting the gears I took out of my race =
car. Second gear appears to have the slightest blue tinge to its color now.=
 Is there a way to check if there is some damage caused by over heating?&nb=
sp; Everything seems good from a tolerance perspective,
 just concerned about the slight blue color. <br>

&gt; <br>

&gt; Related note. Is there a combination of gears I can use out of differe=
nt gearboxes to give a better split between 3, 3OD, and 4th?&nbsp; Right no=
w I just skip 3OD because it is very close to 4th. I have a ton of gearboxe=
s laying around, so if there is a combination
 I should try I=E2=80=99d love to give it a shot. <br>

&gt; <br>

&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
am.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]=
.net</a><br>

&gt; <br>

&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http=
://www.fot-racing.com/">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br>

&gt; <br>

&gt; Donate: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" href=
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</blockquote>
</div>

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</div>

</blockquote>
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</blockquote></div>

</div>
</blockquote></div>
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