Subject: [Fot] Rear brake help needed

From: Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 15:00:39 -0500

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> =EF=BB=BF
> Fellow racers and breakers of parts,
> =20
> This past weekend we had wonderful racing at Eagles Canyon Raceway.  Owner=
ship turned over a couple years ago and they have finished a multi-million d=
ollar renovation of the track, it is truly amazing now.  ECR has always been=
 high on my list because of its potential with the natural terrain, but the l=
ack of good construction methods had held it back since it opened.  That has=
 all been corrected now and it is truly amazing=E2=80=A6well enough on that f=
or now.
> =20
> My problem
> For the past two years I have not been able to finish a race weekend w/o c=
ompletely destroying my rear brakes.  Usually related to heat build up that m=
anifests as a blown wheel cylinder or brake shoe linings that start cracking=
 and chuncking off the shoe causing further rapid wear.  This last weekend, I=
 had a total rapid failure of the rear brakes when the right rear cylinder l=
et go under hard braking from 100+ mph, I may have blown another seal in the=
 drivers compartment when that happened, but will spare those details.  Luck=
ily, my dual masters allowed me to get the car slowed reasonably with just t=
he front brakes.  For any of you that have had this happen before, you under=
stand that with a balance bar setup, you don=E2=80=99t end up with full brak=
es when one end fails.  The balance bar rotates significantly to the side th=
at has zero resistance.  In my case I=E2=80=99d estimate that I had about 20=
% of my front brakes available to slow the car, like I said, interesting exp=
erience that I=E2=80=99d rather not repeat again.
> =20
> My setup
> Twin Wilwood 0.7 master cylinders with a custom balance bar.  Stock front T=
R6 calipers and stock 9=E2=80=9D TR drums with 0.75 wheel cylinders (I=E2=80=
=99ve tried everything from 5/8 up to 7/8=E2=80=9D).  I also run a hydraulic=
 proportioning valve to be able to fine tune the rear hydraulic pressure.  I=
 was running with the aluminum rear drums until I destroyed the linings last=
 year in one of the incidents when the rear shoe linings cracked and broke c=
ompletely off allowing the shoe to cut groves into the drum linings. My rout=
ine setup is to put the car on jack stands to adjust the brakes.  I start by=
 running the rear drum shoe adjusters in until I perceive slight drag, then b=
ack off two clicks.  Then I adjust the rear mechanical bias with the balance=
 bar until I have the front and rear brakes engaging (dragging) at approxima=
tely the same point of pedal travel.  I then fine tune the adjustment to dia=
l back the rear bias until I can threshold brake at speed and lock the front=
s slightly before I lock the rears.  This allows me to trail brake with conf=
idence that I=E2=80=99m not going to swap ends because of too much rear brak=
e.
> =20
> I have used stock, portifield, and TSI drum linings all with the same resu=
lts.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m looking for a couple things from the group (no disc conversion=
 ideas please):
> What is wrong with my rear brake setup and adjustment approach?
> What is your setup and adjustment approach?=20
> Do you like the amount of rear brake you get with your approach or is it a=
 compromise to keep the brakes from failing?
> Lastly, I hate our wheel cylinders, its is a terrible design and I think w=
e have real junk on the market today.  I have a theory that the sliding whee=
l cylinder assemble is part of the root cause of my failures, along with hea=
t.  The piston and seal are dealing with some severe side loading once the c=
ylinder starts sliding around to do its job and I don=E2=80=99t think it is u=
p to the task, especially what we get these days.  Has anyone modified their=
 backing plates and shoes to use a modern day twin piston wheel cylinder tha=
t is bolted to the backing plate?  Or has anyone ditched the TR drums all to=
gether for another 9=E2=80=9D or 10=E2=80=9D drum backing plate and guts fro=
m another source.  I=E2=80=99m open to all drum brake ideas at this point.  I=
=E2=80=99m really tired of not racing because of rear brake failures.=20
> =20
> Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for your ideas.=20

Greg=20=

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Fellow racers and breakers of parts,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This past weekend we had wonderful racing at Eagles C=
anyon Raceway.&nbsp; Ownership turned over a couple years ago and they have f=
inished a multi-million dollar renovation of the track, it is truly amazing n=
ow.&nbsp; ECR has always been high on my
 list because of its potential with the natural terrain, but the lack of goo=
d construction methods had held it back since it opened.&nbsp; That has all b=
een corrected now and it is truly amazing=E2=80=A6well enough on that for no=
w.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>My problem<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For the past two years I have not been able to finish=
 a race weekend w/o completely destroying my rear brakes.&nbsp; Usually rela=
ted to heat build up that manifests as a blown wheel cylinder or brake shoe l=
inings that start cracking and chuncking
 off the shoe causing further rapid wear.&nbsp; This last weekend, I had a t=
otal rapid failure of the rear brakes when the right rear cylinder let go un=
der hard braking from 100+ mph, I may have blown another seal in the drivers=
 compartment when that happened, but
 will spare those details.&nbsp; Luckily, my dual masters allowed me to get t=
he car slowed reasonably with just the front brakes.&nbsp; For any of you th=
at have had this happen before, you understand that with a balance bar setup=
, you don=E2=80=99t end up with full brakes when
 one end fails.&nbsp; The balance bar rotates significantly to the side that=
 has zero resistance.&nbsp; In my case I=E2=80=99d estimate that I had about=
 20% of my front brakes available to slow the car, like I said, interesting e=
xperience that I=E2=80=99d rather not repeat again.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>My setup<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Twin Wilwood 0.7 master cylinders with a custom balan=
ce bar.&nbsp; Stock front TR6 calipers and stock 9=E2=80=9D TR drums with 0.=
75 wheel cylinders (I=E2=80=99ve tried everything from 5/8 up to 7/8=E2=80=9D=
).&nbsp; I also run a hydraulic proportioning valve to be able to
 fine tune the rear hydraulic pressure.&nbsp; I was running with the aluminu=
m rear drums until I destroyed the linings last year in one of the incidents=
 when the rear shoe linings cracked and broke completely off allowing the sh=
oe to cut groves into the drum linings.
 My routine setup is to put the car on jack stands to adjust the brakes. &nb=
sp;I start by running the rear drum shoe adjusters in until I perceive sligh=
t drag, then back off two clicks.&nbsp; Then I adjust the rear mechanical bi=
as with the balance bar until I have the
 front and rear brakes engaging (dragging) at approximately the same point o=
f pedal travel.&nbsp; I then fine tune the adjustment to dial back the rear b=
ias until I can threshold brake at speed and lock the fronts slightly before=
 I lock the rears.&nbsp; This allows me
 to trail brake with confidence that I=E2=80=99m not going to swap ends beca=
use of too much rear brake.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have used stock, portifield, and TSI drum linings a=
ll with the same results.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m looking for a couple things from the grou=
p (no disc conversion ideas please):<o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:2.25pt;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1">What is wrong with my rear brake setup and adjustment approach?<o:p>=
</o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:2.25pt;mso-li=
st:l0 level1 lfo1">What is your setup and adjustment approach?&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:2.25pt;m=
so-list:l0 level1 lfo1">Do you like the amount of rear brake you get with yo=
ur approach or is it a compromise to keep the brakes from failing?<o:p></o:p=
></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:2.25pt;mso-list:l0=
 level1 lfo1">Lastly, I hate our wheel cylinders, its is a terrible design a=
nd I think we have real junk on the market today.&nbsp; I have a theory that=
 the sliding wheel cylinder assemble is part
 of the root cause of my failures, along with heat.&nbsp; The piston and sea=
l are dealing with some severe side loading once the cylinder starts sliding=
 around to do its job and I don=E2=80=99t think it is up to the task, especi=
ally what we get these days.&nbsp; Has anyone modified
 their backing plates and shoes to use a modern day twin piston wheel cylind=
er that is bolted to the backing plate?&nbsp; Or has anyone ditched the TR d=
rums all together for another 9=E2=80=9D or 10=E2=80=9D drum backing plate a=
nd guts from another source.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m open to all drum
 brake ideas at this point.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m really tired of not racing bec=
ause of rear brake failures.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for you=
r ideas.&nbsp;</p></div>

</div></blockquote><br><div>Greg&nbsp;</div></body></html>=

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_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot

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From: Tony and Annie Garmey via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 20:20:03 +0000

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From: fubog1 via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 21:37:43 +0000 (UTC)

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	boundary="----=_Part_877324_1919618400.1620423463158"

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 Greg that is strange, rear brakes usually just hang-out back there & do th=
eir thing, once all is established, and fine-tuned with the balance bar.Ass=
uming that the sliders are free, springs good, leading/trailing shoes corre=
ct, I don't see a problem, it's all pretty basic.
With a .70 master on the rear you would actually have less pressure to the =
rears, less braking/heat.The shoes do swell a little when hot, 2-3 clicks o=
ff initially should do it though.Looking at the big picture, what started t=
he problem, ie changes to the system?Also have you tried it w/o the prop va=
lve, or did the problem exist prior?Do you have any gross bias adjustment i=
n the balance bar?
Glen Efinger
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]>
To: Fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Fri, May 7, 2021 4:00 pm
Subject: [Fot] Rear brake help needed

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red {}#yiv4690012249 ol {margin-bottom:0in;}#yiv4690012249 ul {margin-botto=
m:0in;}-->Fellow racers and breakers of parts,  =C2=A0 This past weekend we=
 had wonderful racing at Eagles Canyon Raceway.=C2=A0 Ownership turned over=
 a couple years ago and they have finished a multi-million dollar renovatio=
n of the track, it is truly amazing now.=C2=A0 ECR has always been high on =
my list because of its potential with the natural terrain, but the lack of =
good construction methods had held it back since it opened.=C2=A0 That has =
all been corrected now and it is truly amazing=E2=80=A6well enough on that =
for now.  =C2=A0 My problem For the past two years I have not been able to =
finish a race weekend w/o completely destroying my rear brakes.=C2=A0 Usual=
ly related to heat build up that manifests as a blown wheel cylinder or bra=
ke shoe linings that start cracking and chuncking off the shoe causing furt=
her rapid wear.=C2=A0 This last weekend, I had a total rapid failure of the=
 rear brakes when the right rear cylinder let go under hard braking from 10=
0+ mph, I may have blown another seal in the drivers compartment when that =
happened, but will spare those details.=C2=A0 Luckily, my dual masters allo=
wed me to get the car slowed reasonably with just the front brakes.=C2=A0 F=
or any of you that have had this happen before, you understand that with a =
balance bar setup, you don=E2=80=99t end up with full brakes when one end f=
ails.=C2=A0 The balance bar rotates significantly to the side that has zero=
 resistance.=C2=A0 In my case I=E2=80=99d estimate that I had about 20% of =
my front brakes available to slow the car, like I said, interesting experie=
nce that I=E2=80=99d rather not repeat again.  =C2=A0 My setup Twin Wilwood=
 0.7 master cylinders with a custom balance bar.=C2=A0 Stock front TR6 cali=
pers and stock 9=E2=80=9D TR drums with 0.75 wheel cylinders (I=E2=80=99ve =
tried everything from 5/8 up to 7/8=E2=80=9D).=C2=A0 I also run a hydraulic=
 proportioning valve to be able to fine tune the rear hydraulic pressure.=
=C2=A0 I was running with the aluminum rear drums until I destroyed the lin=
ings last year in one of the incidents when the rear shoe linings cracked a=
nd broke completely off allowing the shoe to cut groves into the drum linin=
gs. My routine setup is to put the car on jack stands to adjust the brakes.=
 =C2=A0I start by running the rear drum shoe adjusters in until I perceive =
slight drag, then back off two clicks.=C2=A0 Then I adjust the rear mechani=
cal bias with the balance bar until I have the front and rear brakes engagi=
ng (dragging) at approximately the same point of pedal travel.=C2=A0 I then=
 fine tune the adjustment to dial back the rear bias until I can threshold =
brake at speed and lock the fronts slightly before I lock the rears.=C2=A0 =
This allows me to trail brake with confidence that I=E2=80=99m not going to=
 swap ends because of too much rear brake.  =C2=A0 I have used stock, porti=
field, and TSI drum linings all with the same results.  =C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m =
looking for a couple things from the group (no disc conversion ideas please=
):   =20
   - What is wrong with my rear brake setup and adjustment approach?
   - What is your setup and adjustment approach?=C2=A0
   - Do you like the amount of rear brake you get with your approach or is =
it a compromise to keep the brakes from failing?
   - Lastly, I hate our wheel cylinders, its is a terrible design and I thi=
nk we have real junk on the market today.=C2=A0 I have a theory that the sl=
iding wheel cylinder assemble is part of the root cause of my failures, alo=
ng with heat.=C2=A0 The piston and seal are dealing with some severe side l=
oading once the cylinder starts sliding around to do its job and I don=E2=
=80=99t think it is up to the task, especially what we get these days.=C2=
=A0 Has anyone modified their backing plates and shoes to use a modern day =
twin piston wheel cylinder that is bolted to the backing plate?=C2=A0 Or ha=
s anyone ditched the TR drums all together for another 9=E2=80=9D or 10=E2=
=80=9D drum backing plate and guts from another source.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m o=
pen to all drum brake ideas at this point.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m really tired o=
f not racing because of rear brake failures.=C2=A0
  =C2=A0 Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for your ideas.=C2=
=A0

Greg=C2=A0_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

m

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div style=3D"color:black;font: 10pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"2">Greg that is strange, rear brakes usually just hang-=
out back there &amp; do their thing, once all is established, and fine-tune=
d with the balance bar.</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">Assuming that the sliders are free, springs good, lea=
ding/trailing shoes correct, I don't see a problem, it's all pretty basic.<=
br>
</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">With a .70 master on the rear you would actually have=
 less pressure to the rears, less braking/heat.</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">The shoes do swell a little when hot, 2-3 clicks off =
initially should do it though.</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">Looking at the big picture, what started the problem,=
 ie changes to the system?</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">Also have you tried it w/o the prop valve, or did the=
 problem exist prior?</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">Do you have any gross bias adjustment in the balance =
bar?<br>
</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">Glen Efinger</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
 size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Greg Blake via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Fri, May 7, 2021 4:00 pm<br>
Subject: [Fot] Rear brake help needed<br>
<br>

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<div class=3D"yiv4690012249WordSection1">

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal">Fellow racers and breakers of parts,<=
/div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal">This past weekend we had wonderful ra=
cing at Eagles Canyon Raceway.&nbsp; Ownership turned over a couple years a=
go and they have finished a multi-million dollar renovation of the track, i=
t is truly amazing now.&nbsp; ECR has always been high on my
 list because of its potential with the natural terrain, but the lack of go=
od construction methods had held it back since it opened.&nbsp; That has al=
l been corrected now and it is truly amazing=E2=80=A6well enough on that fo=
r now.</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal"><b>My problem</b></div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal">For the past two years I have not bee=
n able to finish a race weekend w/o completely destroying my rear brakes.&n=
bsp; Usually related to heat build up that manifests as a blown wheel cylin=
der or brake shoe linings that start cracking and chuncking
 off the shoe causing further rapid wear.&nbsp; This last weekend, I had a =
total rapid failure of the rear brakes when the right rear cylinder let go =
under hard braking from 100+ mph, I may have blown another seal in the driv=
ers compartment when that happened, but
 will spare those details.&nbsp; Luckily, my dual masters allowed me to get=
 the car slowed reasonably with just the front brakes.&nbsp; For any of you=
 that have had this happen before, you understand that with a balance bar s=
etup, you don=E2=80=99t end up with full brakes when
 one end fails.&nbsp; The balance bar rotates significantly to the side tha=
t has zero resistance.&nbsp; In my case I=E2=80=99d estimate that I had abo=
ut 20% of my front brakes available to slow the car, like I said, interesti=
ng experience that I=E2=80=99d rather not repeat again.</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal"><b>My setup</b></div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal">Twin Wilwood 0.7 master cylinders wit=
h a custom balance bar.&nbsp; Stock front TR6 calipers and stock 9=E2=80=9D=
 TR drums with 0.75 wheel cylinders (I=E2=80=99ve tried everything from 5/8=
 up to 7/8=E2=80=9D).&nbsp; I also run a hydraulic proportioning valve to b=
e able to
 fine tune the rear hydraulic pressure.&nbsp; I was running with the alumin=
um rear drums until I destroyed the linings last year in one of the inciden=
ts when the rear shoe linings cracked and broke completely off allowing the=
 shoe to cut groves into the drum linings.
 My routine setup is to put the car on jack stands to adjust the brakes. &n=
bsp;I start by running the rear drum shoe adjusters in until I perceive sli=
ght drag, then back off two clicks.&nbsp; Then I adjust the rear mechanical=
 bias with the balance bar until I have the
 front and rear brakes engaging (dragging) at approximately the same point =
of pedal travel.&nbsp; I then fine tune the adjustment to dial back the rea=
r bias until I can threshold brake at speed and lock the fronts slightly be=
fore I lock the rears.&nbsp; This allows me
 to trail brake with confidence that I=E2=80=99m not going to swap ends bec=
ause of too much rear brake.
</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal">I have used stock, portifield, and TS=
I drum linings all with the same results.</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m looking for a couple thin=
gs from the group (no disc conversion ideas please):</div>
=20
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in;" type=3D"1" start=3D"1">
<li class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:2.25pt;">W=
hat is wrong with my rear brake setup and adjustment approach?</li><li clas=
s=3D"yiv4690012249MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:2.25pt;">What is y=
our setup and adjustment approach?&nbsp;
</li><li class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:2.25p=
t;">Do you like the amount of rear brake you get with your approach or is i=
t a compromise to keep the brakes from failing?</li><li class=3D"yiv4690012=
249MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:2.25pt;">Lastly, I hate our wheel=
 cylinders, its is a terrible design and I think we have real junk on the m=
arket today.&nbsp; I have a theory that the sliding wheel cylinder assemble=
 is part
 of the root cause of my failures, along with heat.&nbsp; The piston and se=
al are dealing with some severe side loading once the cylinder starts slidi=
ng around to do its job and I don=E2=80=99t think it is up to the task, esp=
ecially what we get these days.&nbsp; Has anyone modified
 their backing plates and shoes to use a modern day twin piston wheel cylin=
der that is bolted to the backing plate?&nbsp; Or has anyone ditched the TR=
 drums all together for another 9=E2=80=9D or 10=E2=80=9D drum backing plat=
e and guts from another source.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m open to all drum
 brake ideas at this point.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m really tired of not racing be=
cause of rear brake failures.&nbsp;
</li></ol>=20

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4690012249MsoNormal">Sorry for the long post and thanks in=
 advance for your ideas.&nbsp;</div>
</div>

</div>
</blockquote><br>

<div>Greg&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
<a ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=
>[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.fot-rac=
ing.com</a><br>
<br>
//www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" target=3D"_blank">http:/=
/autox.team.net/archive </a><a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br>
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<br>
</font></div>
</div>

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---

From: Bob Kramer via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 17:03:16 -0500

--===============1541854977325126218==

--000000000000741daa05c1c49aee
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greg

When we looked at it at the track the knob for the bias was way in the back
on the driver shaft tunnel. I'm sure it is a smooth run from there up under
the bonnet to the bias bar but maybe the cable arrangement could hold a
clue. Might it hang up somehow causing the rears to change to dragging
while getting off and on the peddle? Running with it disconnected would
tell a story.

Bob Kramer

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:01 PM Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> This past weekend we had wonderful racing at Eagles Canyon Raceway.
> Ownership turned over a couple years ago and they have finished a
> multi-million dollar renovation of the track, it is truly amazing now.  E=
CR
> has always been high on my list because of its potential with the natural
> terrain, but the lack of good construction methods had held it back since
> it opened.  That has all been corrected now and it is truly amazing=E2=80=
=A6well
> enough on that for now.
>
>
>
> *My problem*
>
> For the past two years I have not been able to finish a race weekend w/o
> completely destroying my rear brakes.  Usually related to heat build up
> that manifests as a blown wheel cylinder or brake shoe linings that start
> cracking and chuncking off the shoe causing further rapid wear.  This las=
t
> weekend, I had a total rapid failure of the rear brakes when the right re=
ar
> cylinder let go under hard braking from 100+ mph, I may have blown anothe=
r
> seal in the drivers compartment when that happened, but will spare those
> details.  Luckily, my dual masters allowed me to get the car slowed
> reasonably with just the front brakes.  For any of you that have had this
> happen before, you understand that with a balance bar setup, you don=E2=
=80=99t end
> up with full brakes when one end fails.  The balance bar rotates
> significantly to the side that has zero resistance.  In my case I=E2=80=
=99d
> estimate that I had about 20% of my front brakes available to slow the ca=
r,
> like I said, interesting experience that I=E2=80=99d rather not repeat ag=
ain.
>
>
>
> *My setup*
>
> Twin Wilwood 0.7 master cylinders with a custom balance bar.  Stock front
> TR6 calipers and stock 9=E2=80=9D TR drums with 0.75 wheel cylinders (I=
=E2=80=99ve tried
> everything from 5/8 up to 7/8=E2=80=9D).  I also run a hydraulic proporti=
oning
> valve to be able to fine tune the rear hydraulic pressure.  I was running
> with the aluminum rear drums until I destroyed the linings last year in o=
ne
> of the incidents when the rear shoe linings cracked and broke completely
> off allowing the shoe to cut groves into the drum linings. My routine set=
up
> is to put the car on jack stands to adjust the brakes.  I start by runnin=
g
> the rear drum shoe adjusters in until I perceive slight drag, then back o=
ff
> two clicks.  Then I adjust the rear mechanical bias with the balance bar
> until I have the front and rear brakes engaging (dragging) at approximate=
ly
> the same point of pedal travel.  I then fine tune the adjustment to dial
> back the rear bias until I can threshold brake at speed and lock the fron=
ts
> slightly before I lock the rears.  This allows me to trail brake with
> confidence that I=E2=80=99m not going to swap ends because of too much re=
ar brake.
>
>
>
> I have used stock, portifield, and TSI drum linings all with the same
> results.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m looking for a couple things from the group (no disc conversio=
n ideas
> please):
>
>    1. What is wrong with my rear brake setup and adjustment approach?
>    2. What is your setup and adjustment approach?
>    3. Do you like the amount of rear brake you get with your approach or
>    is it a compromise to keep the brakes from failing?
>    4. Lastly, I hate our wheel cylinders, its is a terrible design and I
>    think we have real junk on the market today.  I have a theory that the
>    sliding wheel cylinder assemble is part of the root cause of my failur=
es,
>    along with heat.  The piston and seal are dealing with some severe sid=
e
>    loading once the cylinder starts sliding around to do its job and I do=
n=E2=80=99t
>    think it is up to the task, especially what we get these days.  Has an=
yone
>    modified their backing plates and shoes to use a modern day twin pisto=
n
>    wheel cylinder that is bolted to the backing plate?  Or has anyone dit=
ched
>    the TR drums all together for another 9=E2=80=9D or 10=E2=80=9D drum b=
acking plate and guts
>    from another source.  I=E2=80=99m open to all drum brake ideas at this=
 point.  I=E2=80=99m
>    really tired of not racing because of rear brake failures.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for your ideas.
>
>
> Greg
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
>
>
>

--000000000000741daa05c1c49aee
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Greg<div><br></div><div>When we looked at it at the track =
the knob for the bias was way in the back on the driver shaft tunnel. I&#39=
;m sure it is a smooth run from there up under the bonnet to the bias bar b=
ut maybe the cable arrangement could hold a clue. Might it hang=C2=A0up som=
ehow causing=C2=A0the rears to change to dragging while getting off and on =
the peddle? Running with it disconnected would tell a story.</div><div><br =
clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmai=
l=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Kramer</div></div></div><br></di=
v></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr=
">On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:01 PM Greg Blake via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:f=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><br><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF

<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Fellow racers and breakers of parts,<u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This past weekend we had wonderful racing at Eagles =
Canyon Raceway.=C2=A0 Ownership turned over a couple years ago and they hav=
e finished a multi-million dollar renovation of the track, it is truly amaz=
ing now.=C2=A0 ECR has always been high on my
 list because of its potential with the natural terrain, but the lack of go=
od construction methods had held it back since it opened.=C2=A0 That has al=
l been corrected now and it is truly amazing=E2=80=A6well enough on that fo=
r now.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>My problem<u></u><u></u></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For the past two years I have not been able to finis=
h a race weekend w/o completely destroying my rear brakes.=C2=A0 Usually re=
lated to heat build up that manifests as a blown wheel cylinder or brake sh=
oe linings that start cracking and chuncking
 off the shoe causing further rapid wear.=C2=A0 This last weekend, I had a =
total rapid failure of the rear brakes when the right rear cylinder let go =
under hard braking from 100+ mph, I may have blown another seal in the driv=
ers compartment when that happened, but
 will spare those details.=C2=A0 Luckily, my dual masters allowed me to get=
 the car slowed reasonably with just the front brakes.=C2=A0 For any of you=
 that have had this happen before, you understand that with a balance bar s=
etup, you don=E2=80=99t end up with full brakes when
 one end fails.=C2=A0 The balance bar rotates significantly to the side tha=
t has zero resistance.=C2=A0 In my case I=E2=80=99d estimate that I had abo=
ut 20% of my front brakes available to slow the car, like I said, interesti=
ng experience that I=E2=80=99d rather not repeat again.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>My setup<u></u><u></u></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Twin Wilwood 0.7 master cylinders with a custom bala=
nce bar.=C2=A0 Stock front TR6 calipers and stock 9=E2=80=9D TR drums with =
0.75 wheel cylinders (I=E2=80=99ve tried everything from 5/8 up to 7/8=E2=
=80=9D).=C2=A0 I also run a hydraulic proportioning valve to be able to
 fine tune the rear hydraulic pressure.=C2=A0 I was running with the alumin=
um rear drums until I destroyed the linings last year in one of the inciden=
ts when the rear shoe linings cracked and broke completely off allowing the=
 shoe to cut groves into the drum linings.
 My routine setup is to put the car on jack stands to adjust the brakes.=C2=
=A0 I start by running the rear drum shoe adjusters in until I perceive sli=
ght drag, then back off two clicks.=C2=A0 Then I adjust the rear mechanical=
 bias with the balance bar until I have the
 front and rear brakes engaging (dragging) at approximately the same point =
of pedal travel.=C2=A0 I then fine tune the adjustment to dial back the rea=
r bias until I can threshold brake at speed and lock the fronts slightly be=
fore I lock the rears.=C2=A0 This allows me
 to trail brake with confidence that I=E2=80=99m not going to swap ends bec=
ause of too much rear brake.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have used stock, portifield, and TSI drum linings =
all with the same results.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m looking for a couple things from the gro=
up (no disc conversion ideas please):<u></u><u></u></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li style=3D"margin-left:2.25pt">What is wrong with my rear brake setup and=
 adjustment approach?<u></u><u></u></li><li style=3D"margin-left:2.25pt">Wh=
at is your setup and adjustment approach?=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></li><li style=3D"margin-left:2.25pt">Do you like the amount =
of rear brake you get with your approach or is it a compromise to keep the =
brakes from failing?<u></u><u></u></li><li style=3D"margin-left:2.25pt">Las=
tly, I hate our wheel cylinders, its is a terrible design and I think we ha=
ve real junk on the market today.=C2=A0 I have a theory that the sliding wh=
eel cylinder assemble is part
 of the root cause of my failures, along with heat.=C2=A0 The piston and se=
al are dealing with some severe side loading once the cylinder starts slidi=
ng around to do its job and I don=E2=80=99t think it is up to the task, esp=
ecially what we get these days.=C2=A0 Has anyone modified
 their backing plates and shoes to use a modern day twin piston wheel cylin=
der that is bolted to the backing plate?=C2=A0 Or has anyone ditched the TR=
 drums all together for another 9=E2=80=9D or 10=E2=80=9D drum backing plat=
e and guts from another source.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m open to all drum
 brake ideas at this point.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m really tired of not racing be=
cause of rear brake failures.=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for yo=
ur ideas.=C2=A0</p></div>

</div></blockquote><br><div>Greg=C2=A0</div></div>_________________________=
______________________<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]<=
/a><br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br>
<br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive</a> <a href=3D"http://www.team.n=
et/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.team.net/pipermail/fot<br>
t/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.te=
am.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

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