Subject: Re: [Fot] TR2/3/4 engine cooling

From: Peter Vucinic via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 11:15:48 +1000

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Hi John,

Went through that many years ago. Could never get it to function =
properly on my TR4. Gave up in the end is it was all way too hard and =
complicated. Engine always ran hot no matter what I did. I had an =
electronic controller which gave variable speed to the pump unit. But =
that didn=E2=80=99t make any difference in my case.

=20

=20

Cheers

=20

=20

"You can Make a Small Fortune From Motor Racing. As long as You Started =
With A Lage Fortune!"

Kind Regards

Peter Vucinic

TR4 - TR7 V8 - Spitfire MkII

_______________________________________________

=20

 <http://www.fot-racing.com/> http://www.fot-racing.com

=20

Archive:  <http://www.team.net/archive> http://www.team.net/archive

Forums:  <http://www.team.net/forums> http://www.team.net/forums

=20

=20

=20

From: Fot [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of John Styduhar =
via Fot
Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019 8:27 AM
To: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph
Subject: [Fot] TR2/3/4 engine cooling

=20

Anyone have any experience with installation of an electric water pump =
on the TR wet sleeve engine??    Having trouble with temperature control =
on the Davies Craig 115 pump and controller kit I installed on my TR3.  =
Flow rate is advertised at 115 liters/minute.     Thanks

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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-AU link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Hi John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Went through that many years ago. Could never get it to function =
properly on my TR4. Gave up in the end is it was all way too hard and =
complicated. Engine always ran hot no matter what I did. I had an =
electronic controller which gave variable speed to the pump unit. But =
that didn=E2=80=99t make any difference in my =
case.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A=
0'>&quot;You can Make a Small Fortune From Motor Racing. As long as You =
Started With A Lage Fortune!&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Kind Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Peter Vucinic<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>TR4 - TR7 V8 - Spitfire MkII<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>[email-masked]</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'><a =
href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com/"><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>http://www.fot-racing.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>Donate: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html"><span =
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></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>Archive: =
<a href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive"><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>http://www.team.net/archive</span></a><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>Forums: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums"><span =
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an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Fot =
[mailto:[email-masked]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Styduhar =
via Fot<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, 10 May 2019 8:27 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
Triumph 'Friends of Triumph<br><b>Subject:</b> [Fot] TR2/3/4 engine =
cooling<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'>Anyone have any =
experience with installation of an electric water pump on the TR wet =
sleeve engine??&nbsp; &nbsp; Having trouble with temperature control on =
the Davies Craig 115 pump and controller kit I installed on my =
TR3.&nbsp; Flow rate is advertised at 115 liters/minute.&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;Thanks<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>
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http://www.fot-racing.com

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From: Michael Porter via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 21:13:13 -0600

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On 5/12/2019 7:15 PM, Peter Vucinic via Fot wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
> Went through that many years ago. Could never get it to function 
> properly on my TR4. Gave up in the end is it was all way too hard and 
> complicated. Engine always ran hot no matter what I did. I had an 
> electronic controller which gave variable speed to the pump unit. But 
> that didn’t make any difference in my case.
>

Unfortunately, pumps are almost always rated by their flow rate through 
an open orifice, and one has to figure in the pumping losses through the 
engine.  So, if an engine produces x amount of heat per minute, then the 
actual flow rate, given the specific heat of water, has to be able to 
remove x amount of heat per minute.  A cast-iron engine with lots of 
rusty-crusties in the passages is certainly going to have a flow rate a 
fair amount lower than an open orifice (not that those rusty-crusties 
aren't important--heat transfer off of rusty cast iron is higher than 
with any other metal because of the surface area).

The other big problem with pumps is that one needs to know their flow at 
specific head pressures, because without the pump being able to build 
pressure and still move fluid, hot-running engines will inevitably 
succumb to nucleate boiling and overheat.

In theory, one could have an electric pump that's more efficient than a 
mechanical one, in the same way that electric fans, with the maximum 
efficiency blade pitch matched to the motor rpm, are more efficient than 
engine-driven fans.  However, I suspect that the makers of the kits out 
there are assembling them from the parts available, not engineering them 
to requirements.

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/12/2019 7:15 PM, Peter Vucinic via
      Fot wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:!&amp;!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAADpmE6eHDApHoEo2MzdQ3KnCgAAAEAAAAPQqZwPx6dBDkYOMNGopEUABAAAAAA==@netspace.net.au">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
            John,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Went
            through that many years ago. Could never get it to function
            properly on my TR4. Gave up in the end is it was all way too
            hard and complicated. Engine always ran hot no matter what I
            did. I had an electronic controller which gave variable
            speed to the pump unit. But that didn’t make any difference
            in my case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Unfortunately, pumps are almost always rated by their flow rate
      through an open orifice, and one has to figure in the pumping
      losses through the engine.  So, if an engine produces x amount of
      heat per minute, then the actual flow rate, given the specific
      heat of water, has to be able to remove x amount of heat per
      minute.  A cast-iron engine with lots of rusty-crusties in the
      passages is certainly going to have a flow rate a fair amount
      lower than an open orifice (not that those rusty-crusties aren't
      important--heat transfer off of rusty cast iron is higher than
      with any other metal because of the surface area).<br>
    </p>
    <p>The other big problem with pumps is that one needs to know their
      flow at specific head pressures, because without the pump being
      able to build pressure and still move fluid, hot-running engines
      will inevitably succumb to nucleate boiling and overheat.</p>
    <p>In theory, one could have an electric pump that's more efficient
      than a mechanical one, in the same way that electric fans, with
      the maximum efficiency blade pitch matched to the motor rpm, are
      more efficient than engine-driven fans.  However, I suspect that
      the makers of the kits out there are assembling them from the
      parts available, not engineering them to requirements.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Cheers.<br>
    </p>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....</pre>
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