Subject: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni

From: fubog1 via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 11:23:38 +0000 (UTC)

--===============0514296855763816727==
	boundary="----=_Part_78329_648900765.1539948218547"

------=_Part_78329_648900765.1539948218547
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 Yes HS4 carbs.Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: van.mulders.marcel <[email-masked]>
To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Cc: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thu, Oct 18, 2018 5:48 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni

Glen,With 1 1/2s carburettors, I suppose you mean HS4? The SU logic is a little weird. 1" + 1/2" = 6/8" so you would think it are HS6s, but when talking about HS carburettors, 1 + 1/2 = 1 + 4/8 and they took the 4 to name these carbs HS4...Marcel
Van: "fubog1" <[email-masked]>
Aan: "van mulders marcel" <[email-masked]>, "Mike Harmuth" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "fot" <[email-masked]>
Verzonden: Donderdag 18 oktober 2018 22:39:39
Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni

 Well I won't speculate on the cause, but I doubt that it's the SUs.
My small crank 1300 w/1 1/2s on a eurospec manifold w/Stahls header, "big" valve head, would buzz easily to 9k, still making power, if I let it.Normal shift point 7800-8000.FWIW...
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot <[email-masked]>
To: Mike Harmuth <[email-masked]>
Cc: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thu, Oct 18, 2018 2:12 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni

-"...hitting a wall at that point..." : is it possible this is rather pointing to the camshaft than to the SU's? If it are the carburettors, maybe the power would decrease more gradually above 6500 rpm.-In general one choke per cylinder is better, and 2 Webers 40 DCOE isn't overkill I think- what about trying HS6 SU's on your actual manifold?At what maximum rpm is your engine still reliable?Marcel
Van: "fot" <[email-masked]>
Aan: "fot" <[email-masked]>
Verzonden: Woensdag 17 oktober 2018 15:49:45
Onderwerp: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni

I'm looking into switching out my twin HS4s on the 1296 race engine to either Weber or Mukinis. I know this has been done for years and I'd like to get close the best set up out of the gate. 

I don't think the SUs are up to the task of moving enough air with the new ported head and Stahl header. I've worked on the SUs and gotten them to finally deliver a good AFR , 12.6, at 6500 RPM under load but I seem to hit a wall (figuratively) at that point. I suspect that the openings just aren't big enough to deliver the mass of air required. (spreadsheet or other flow calculator link appreciated)
Biggest gate I suspect is the intake valve, 1 3/8" head (~35mm) HS4 is ~38mm at best.

Recommendations? I've seen all these setups at the track, each with pluses, minuses and overkill cause it looks cool. 

One weber DCOE 40 or 2? what jets, tubes etc for a starting point? Best manifold? 

2 or 4 Mikuni 40? jet size?
thanksmike

_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot

------=_Part_78329_648900765.1539948218547
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<font color=3D'black' size=3D'2' face=3D'Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif'>
<div> <font size=3D"2">Yes HS4 carbs.</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">Glen</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----=
Original Message-----<br>
From: van.mulders.marcel &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: fubog1 &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Cc: fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Thu, Oct 18, 2018 5:48 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"yiv7557179423">
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
0pt;color:#000000;">
<div>Glen,</div>

<div>With 1 1/2s carburettors, I suppose you mean HS4? The SU logic is a li=
ttle weird. 1" + 1/2" =3D 6/8" so you would think it are HS6s, but when tal=
king about HS carburettors, 1 + 1/2 =3D 1 + 4/8 and they took the 4 to name=
 these carbs HS4...</div>

<div>Marcel</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<hr id=3D"yiv7557179423zwchr">
<div class=3D"yiv7557179423yqt0596148954" id=3D"yiv7557179423yqt61649">
<div><b>Van: </b>"fubog1" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br clear=3D"none"><b>Aan: =
</b>"van mulders marcel" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;, "Mike Harmu=
th" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br clear=3D"none"><b>Cc: </b>"fot" &lt;fot@au=
tox.team.net&gt;<br clear=3D"none"><b>Verzonden: </b>Donderdag 18 oktober 2=
018 22:39:39<br clear=3D"none"><b>Onderwerp: </b>Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni<=
br clear=3D"none"></div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div><span style=3D"color:black;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small;">
</span>
<div> <span style=3D"font-size:small;">Well I won't speculate on the cause,=
 but I doubt that it's the SUs.<br clear=3D"none">
</span></div>

<div><span style=3D"font-size:small;">My small crank 1300 w/1 1/2s on a eur=
ospec manifold w/Stahls header, "big" valve head, would buzz easily to 9k, =
still making power, if I let it.</span></div>

<div><span style=3D"font-size:small;">Normal shift point 7800-8000.</span><=
/div>

<div><span style=3D"font-size:small;">FWIW...<br clear=3D"none">
</span></div>

<div><span style=3D"font-size:small;">Glen</span><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div> <br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div> <br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;">---=
--Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">
From: van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br clear=3D"=
none">
To: Mike Harmuth &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
Cc: fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
Sent: Thu, Oct 18, 2018 2:12 pm<br clear=3D"none">
Subject: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">

<div id=3D"yiv7557179423">

<div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
0pt;color:#000000;">

<div>-"...hitting a wall at that point..." : is it possible this is rather =
pointing to the camshaft than to the SU's? If it are the carburettors, mayb=
e the power would decrease more gradually above 6500 rpm.</div>

<div>-In general one choke per cylinder is better, and 2 Webers 40 DCOE isn=
't overkill I think</div>

<div>- what about trying HS6 SU's on your actual manifold?</div>

<div>At what maximum rpm is your engine still reliable?</div>

<div>Marcel</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<hr id=3D"yiv7557179423zwchr">

<div class=3D"yiv7557179423yqt0105059393" id=3D"yiv7557179423yqt73080">

<div><b>Van: </b>"fot" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br clear=3D"none"><b>Aan:=
 </b>"fot" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br clear=3D"none"><b>Verzonden: </b>W=
oensdag 17 oktober 2018 15:49:45<br clear=3D"none"><b>Onderwerp: </b>[Fot] =
Weber vs Mikuni<br clear=3D"none"></div>

<br clear=3D"none">

<div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">

<div>I'm looking into switching out my twin HS4s on the 1296 race engine to=
 either Weber or Mukinis. I know this has been done for years and I'd like =
to get close the best set up out of the gate. <br clear=3D"none"></div>

<br clear=3D"none">

<div>I don't think the SUs are up to the task of moving enough air with the=
 new ported head and Stahl header. I've worked on the SUs and gotten them t=
o finally deliver a good AFR , 12.6, at 6500 RPM under load but I seem to h=
it a wall (figuratively) at that point. I suspect that the openings just ar=
en't big enough to deliver the mass of air required. (spreadsheet or other =
flow calculator link appreciated)<br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>Biggest gate I suspect is the intake valve, 1 3/8" head (~35mm) HS4 is=
 ~38mm at best.<br clear=3D"none"></div>

<br clear=3D"none">

<div>Recommendations? I've seen all these setups at the track, each with pl=
uses, minuses and overkill cause it looks cool. <br clear=3D"none"></div>

<br clear=3D"none">

<div>One weber DCOE 40 or 2? what jets, tubes etc for a starting point? Bes=
t manifold? <br clear=3D"none"></div>

<br clear=3D"none">

<div>2 or 4 Mikuni 40? jet size?</div>

<br clear=3D"none">

<div>thanks</div>

<div>mike<br clear=3D"none"></div>

</div>

<br clear=3D"none">_______________________________________________<br clear=
=3D"none">[email-masked]<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">http://ww=
w.fot-racing.com<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Donate: http://www.te=
am.net/donate.html<br clear=3D"none">Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail=
/fot<br clear=3D"none">Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/op=
tions/fot/[email-masked]<br clear=3D"none"></div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<div class=3D"yiv7557179423yqt0105059393" id=3D"yiv7557179423yqt79273">____=
___________________________________________<br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"noo=
pener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" targ=
et=3D"_blank" removedlink__1d741b6e-16a5-4cbf-87aa-2ef12208a9dc__href=3D"ma=
ilto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=
=3D"none"><a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" r=
emovedlink__1d741b6e-16a5-4cbf-87aa-2ef12208a9dc__href=3D"http://www.fot-ra=
cing.com">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none=
">Donate: <a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" r=
emovedlink__1d741b6e-16a5-4cbf-87aa-2ef12208a9dc__href=3D"http://www.team.n=
et/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br clear=3D"none">Archi=
ve: <a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" removed=
link__1d741b6e-16a5-4cbf-87aa-2ef12208a9dc__href=3D"http://www.team.net/pip=
ermail/fot">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br clear=3D"none">Unsubsc=
ribe/Manage: <a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank=
" removedlink__1d741b6e-16a5-4cbf-87aa-2ef12208a9dc__href=3D"http://autox.t=
eam.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]">http://autox.team.net/mailman/o=
ptions/fot/[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clea=
r=3D"none"></div>

</div>

<br clear=3D"none"></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font>
------=_Part_78329_648900765.1539948218547--

--===============0514296855763816727==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot

--===============0514296855763816727==--

---

From: Kas Kastner via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 09:31:28 -0700

--===============1049463605825256892==

--0000000000009664af0578977208

Lots of times at the higher revs the float bowls of the S.U.'s just run out
of gas and they need an enlargment of the needle and seat.Many times the
stock needle and seat j ust does not have enough capacity to flow the fuel
needed for the much richer needles used and the revvs. The SU's are so
simple minded and easy to work with I'd want to very certain that the was a
BIG benifit before changing to jetted carbs that need a ton of parts of you
are going to make use of the capacity of the units.

 If you do not tune for the day and the weather at that time what is the
point in having all that adustment. With the SU a couple flats adjustment
up or down and you are done the hour. Bigger machinery does not mean bigger
power or even more useful power.

BUT, if you are going for the expensive route, get the msot you can get.
DCOE 45's are the ticket. Start with a small venturi and work up from
there. Yes, you neeed to buy  alterate venturies otherwise you have just
wasted your money.These same carbs were used on the Sebring and Le Mans
Spitfire coupes 1147 cc engines  and proved 3% more power by tuning. To get
the benifit you need to work at it.

*Never be beaten by equipment.*

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:01 AM fubog1 via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Yes HS4 carbs.
> Glen,
> With 1 1/2s carburettors, I suppose you mean HS4? The SU logic is a little
> weird. 1" + 1/2" = 6/8" so you would think it are HS6s, but when talking
> about HS carburettors, 1 + 1/2 = 1 + 4/8 and they took the 4 to name these
> carbs HS4...
> Marcel
>
> ------------------------------
> *Van: *"fubog1" <[email-masked]>
> *Aan: *"van mulders marcel" <[email-masked]>, "Mike
> Harmuth" <[email-masked]>
> *Cc: *"fot" <[email-masked]>
> *Verzonden: *Donderdag 18 oktober 2018 22:39:39
> *Onderwerp: *Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni
>
> My small crank 1300 w/1 1/2s on a eurospec manifold w/Stahls header, "big"
> valve head, would buzz easily to 9k, still making power, if I let it.
> Normal shift point 7800-8000.
> FWIW...
> Glen
>
>
> -"...hitting a wall at that point..." : is it possible this is rather
> pointing to the camshaft than to the SU's? If it are the carburettors,
> maybe the power would decrease more gradually above 6500 rpm.
> -In general one choke per cylinder is better, and 2 Webers 40 DCOE isn't
> overkill I think
> - what about trying HS6 SU's on your actual manifold?
> At what maximum rpm is your engine still reliable?
> Marcel
>
> ------------------------------
> *Van: *"fot" <[email-masked]>
> *Aan: *"fot" <[email-masked]>
> *Verzonden: *Woensdag 17 oktober 2018 15:49:45
> *Onderwerp: *[Fot] Weber vs Mikuni
>
> I'm looking into switching out my twin HS4s on the 1296 race engine to
> either Weber or Mukinis. I know this has been done for years and I'd like
> to get close the best set up out of the gate.
>
> I don't think the SUs are up to the task of moving enough air with the new
> ported head and Stahl header. I've worked on the SUs and gotten them to
> finally deliver a good AFR , 12.6, at 6500 RPM under load but I seem to hit
> a wall (figuratively) at that point. I suspect that the openings just
> aren't big enough to deliver the mass of air required. (spreadsheet or
> other flow calculator link appreciated)
> Recommendations? I've seen all these setups at the track, each with
> pluses, minuses and overkill cause it looks cool.
>
> thanks
> mike
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
>
>
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
>
>
>

--0000000000009664af0578977208
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Lots of times at the higher revs the float bowls of the S.=
U.&#39;s just run out of gas and they need an enlargment of the needle and =
seat.Many times the stock needle and seat j ust does not have enough capaci=
ty to flow the fuel needed for the much richer needles used and the revvs. =
The SU&#39;s are so simple minded and easy to work with I&#39;d want to ver=
y certain that the was a BIG benifit before changing to jetted carbs that n=
eed a ton of parts of you are going to make use of the capacity of the unit=
s.<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0If you do not tune for the day and the weather =
at that time what is the point in having all that adustment. With the SU a =
couple flats adjustment up or down and you are done the hour. Bigger machin=
ery does not mean bigger power or even more useful power.<div><br></div><di=
v>BUT, if you are going for the expensive route, get the msot you can get.=
=C2=A0 DCOE 45&#39;s are the ticket. Start with a small venturi and work up=
 from there. Yes, you neeed to buy=C2=A0 alterate venturies otherwise you h=
ave just wasted your money.These same carbs were used on the Sebring and Le=
 Mans Spitfire coupes 1147 cc engines=C2=A0 and proved 3% more power by tun=
ing. To get the benifit you need to work at it.<br clear=3D"all"><div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><p=
><strong><font color=3D"#000099">Never be beaten by equipment.</font></stro=
ng></p></div></div><br></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:01 AM fubog1 via Fot &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font color=3D"black" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, =
Helvetica, sans-serif">
<div> <font size=3D"2">Yes HS4 carbs.</font></div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----=
Original Message-----<br>
From: van.mulders.marcel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
e" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
To: fubog1 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">fubog1@a=
ol.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">fot@aut=
ox.team.net</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Thu, Oct 18, 2018 5:48 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423">
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt=
;color:#000000">
<div>Glen,</div>

<div>With 1 1/2s carburettors, I suppose you mean HS4? The SU logic is a li=
ttle weird. 1&quot; + 1/2&quot; =3D 6/8&quot; so you would think it are HS6=
s, but when talking about HS carburettors, 1 + 1/2 =3D 1 + 4/8 and they too=
k the 4 to name these carbs HS4...</div>

<div>Marcel</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<hr id=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423zwchr">
<div class=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt0596148954" id=3D"m_-32=
04379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt61649">
<div><b>Van: </b>&quot;fubog1&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" t=
arget=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none"><b>Aan: </b>&quot=
;van mulders marcel&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:van.mulders.marcel@telenet.=
be" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;, &quot;Mike Har=
muth&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">ofrac=
[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none"><b>Cc: </b>&quot;fot&quot; &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&g=
t;<br clear=3D"none"><b>Verzonden: </b>Donderdag 18 oktober 2018 22:39:39<b=
r clear=3D"none"><b>Onderwerp: </b>Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni<br clear=3D"no=
ne"></div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div><span style=3D"color:black;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font=
-size:small">
</span>
<div> <span style=3D"font-size:small">Well I won&#39;t speculate on the cau=
se, but I doubt that it&#39;s the SUs.<br clear=3D"none">
</span></div>

<div><span style=3D"font-size:small">My small crank 1300 w/1 1/2s on a euro=
spec manifold w/Stahls header, &quot;big&quot; valve head, would buzz easil=
y to 9k, still making power, if I let it.</span></div>

<div><span style=3D"font-size:small">Normal shift point 7800-8000.</span></=
div>

<div><span style=3D"font-size:small">FWIW...<br clear=3D"none">
</span></div>

<div><span style=3D"font-size:small">Glen</span><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----=
Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">
From: van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
t" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
To: Mike Harmuth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank"=
>[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
Cc: fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">fot@aut=
ox.team.net</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
Sent: Thu, Oct 18, 2018 2:12 pm<br clear=3D"none">
Subject: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">

<div id=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423">

<div>

<div style=3D"font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt=
;color:#000000">

<div>-&quot;...hitting a wall at that point...&quot; : is it possible this =
is rather pointing to the camshaft than to the SU&#39;s? If it are the carb=
urettors, maybe the power would decrease more gradually above 6500 rpm.</di=
v>

<div>-In general one choke per cylinder is better, and 2 Webers 40 DCOE isn=
&#39;t overkill I think</div>

<div>- what about trying HS6 SU&#39;s on your actual manifold?</div>

<div>Marcel</div>

<hr id=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423zwchr">

<div class=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt0105059393" id=3D"m_-32=
04379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt73080">

<div><b>Van: </b>&quot;fot&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none"><b>Aan: </b>=
&quot;fot&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank"=
>[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none"><b>Verzonden: </b>Woensdag 17=
 oktober 2018 15:49:45<br clear=3D"none"><b>Onderwerp: </b>[Fot] Weber vs M=
ikuni<br clear=3D"none"></div>

<br clear=3D"none">

<div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">

<div>I&#39;m looking into switching out my twin HS4s on the 1296 race engin=
e to either Weber or Mukinis. I know this has been done for years and I&#39=
;d like to get close the best set up out of the gate. <br clear=3D"none"></=
div>

<br clear=3D"none">

<div>I don&#39;t think the SUs are up to the task of moving enough air with=
 the new ported head and Stahl header. I&#39;ve worked on the SUs and gotte=
n them to finally deliver a good AFR , 12.6, at 6500 RPM under load but I s=
eem to hit a wall (figuratively) at that point. I suspect that the openings=
 just aren&#39;t big enough to deliver the mass of air required. (spreadshe=
et or other flow calculator link appreciated)<br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>Biggest gate I suspect is the intake valve, 1 3/8&quot; head (~35mm) H=
S4 is ~38mm at best.<br clear=3D"none"></div>

<br clear=3D"none">

<div>Recommendations? I&#39;ve seen all these setups at the track, each wit=
h pluses, minuses and overkill cause it looks cool. <br clear=3D"none"></di=
v>

<br clear=3D"none">

<br clear=3D"none">

<br clear=3D"none">

<div>thanks</div>

</div>

<br clear=3D"none">_______________________________________________<br clear=
=3D"none"><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">fot@autox=
.team.net</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a href=3D"http://www.fo=
t-racing.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br clear=3D"n=
one"><br clear=3D"none">Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br clear=3D"none">Ar=
chive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot" target=3D"_blank">http=
://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br clear=3D"none">Unsubscribe/Manage: <a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/van.mulders.marcel@telene=
t.be" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/van.mulde=
[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none"></div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<div class=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt0105059393" id=3D"m_-32=
04379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt79273">___________________________________=
____________<br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect=
">[email-masked]</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"noo=
pener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br clear=3D"=
none"><br clear=3D"none">Donate: <a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"re=
ct">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br clear=3D"none">Archive: <a rel=
=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</=
a><br clear=3D"none">Unsubscribe/Manage: <a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" sha=
pe=3D"rect">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]</a><br=
 clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

</div>

<br clear=3D"none"></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font>_______________________________________________<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]<=
/a><br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br>
<br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br>
[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.=
net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000009664af0578977208--

--===============1049463605825256892==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

--===============1049463605825256892==--

---

From: Ron KRANTZ via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 08:28:53 -0400 (EDT)

--===============1621866445325878409==
	boundary="----=_Part_93702_2082661634.1540038533273"

------=_Part_93702_2082661634.1540038533273
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I totally agree with Kas that the S.U.'s are the simplest carbs around. But there are ways to get around the short comings (I call it chasing the weak link). I use to have the problems Kas noted but found a fix. To keep the engine running properly at high revs on long straights (RA and MidO) I had to increase static fuel pressure to 6 psi to maintain 2.5 psi on the straights. Then with development I needed more air/fuel so I taper bored the throat of the S.U.'s and opened the .090" jets to .096" so I could still use the large array of .090 needles. Plus a few other things to make it all work together.
Ron Krantz
ReK Racing

> On October 19, 2018 at 12:31 PM Kas Kastner via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
>     Lots of times at the higher revs the float bowls of the S.U.'s just run out of gas and they need an enlargment of the needle and seat.Many times the stock needle and seat j ust does not have enough capacity to flow the fuel needed for the much richer needles used and the revvs. The SU's are so simple minded and easy to work with I'd want to very certain that the was a BIG benifit before changing to jetted carbs that need a ton of parts of you are going to make use of the capacity of the units.
> 
>      If you do not tune for the day and the weather at that time what is the point in having all that adustment. With the SU a couple flats adjustment up or down and you are done the hour. Bigger machinery does not mean bigger power or even more useful power.
> 
>     BUT, if you are going for the expensive route, get the msot you can get.  DCOE 45's are the ticket. Start with a small venturi and work up from there. Yes, you neeed to buy  alterate venturies otherwise you have just wasted your money.These same carbs were used on the Sebring and Le Mans Spitfire coupes 1147 cc engines  and proved 3% more power by tuning. To get the benifit you need to work at it.
> 
>     Never be beaten by equipment.
> 
> 
> 
>     On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:01 AM fubog1 via Fot < [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] > wrote:
> 
>         > >         Yes HS4 carbs.
> >         Glen
> > 
> > 
> >         From: van.mulders.marcel < [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] >
> >         To: fubog1 < [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] >
> >         Cc: fot < [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] >
> >         With 1 1/2s carburettors, I suppose you mean HS4? The SU logic is a little weird. 1" + 1/2" = 6/8" so you would think it are HS6s, but when talking about HS carburettors, 1 + 1/2 = 1 + 4/8 and they took the 4 to name these carbs HS4...
> >         Marcel
> > 
> > 
> >         ---------------------------------------------
> >         Van: "fubog1" < [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] >
> >         Aan: "van mulders marcel" < [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] >, "Mike Harmuth" < [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] >
> >         Cc: "fot" < [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] >
> >         My small crank 1300 w/1 1/2s on a eurospec manifold w/Stahls header, "big" valve head, would buzz easily to 9k, still making power, if I let it.
> >         From: van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot < [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] >
> >         To: Mike Harmuth < [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] >
> >         Cc: fot < [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] >
> >         -"...hitting a wall at that point..." : is it possible this is rather pointing to the camshaft than to the SU's? If it are the carburettors, maybe the power would decrease more gradually above 6500 rpm.
> >         -In general one choke per cylinder is better, and 2 Webers 40 DCOE isn't overkill I think
> >         ---------------------------------------------
> >         Van: "fot" < [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] >
> >         Aan: "fot" < [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] >
> >         [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked]
> > 
> >         Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
> >         Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >         [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked]
> > 
> >         Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
> > 
> > 
> > 
>     Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
> 
> 
> 

------=_Part_93702_2082661634.1540038533273
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html><head>
    <meta charset="UTF-8">
</head><body>I totally agree with Kas that the S.U.&#39;s are the simplest carbs around.  But there are ways to get around the short comings (I call it chasing the weak link).  I use to have the problems Kas noted but found a fix.  To keep the engine running properly at high revs on long straights (RA and MidO) I had to increase static fuel pressure to 6 psi to maintain 2.5 psi on the straights.  Then with development I needed more air/fuel so I taper bored the throat of the S.U.&#39;s and opened the .090&#34; jets to .096&#34; so I could still use the large array of .090 needles.  Plus a few other things to make it all work together.<br>Ron Krantz<br>ReK Racing<br><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
  On October 19, 2018 at 12:31 PM Kas Kastner via Fot &#60;[email-masked]&#62; wrote:
 <br>
 <br>
 <div dir="ltr">
  Lots of times at the higher revs the float bowls of the S.U.&#39;s just run out of gas and they need an enlargment of the needle and seat.Many times the stock needle and seat j ust does not have enough capacity to flow the fuel needed for the much richer needles used and the revvs. The SU&#39;s are so simple minded and easy to work with I&#39;d want to very certain that the was a BIG benifit before changing to jetted carbs that need a ton of parts of you are going to make use of the capacity of the units.
  <div>
   <br>
  </div>
  <div>
   &#160;If you do not tune for the day and the weather at that time what is the point in having all that adustment. With the SU a couple flats adjustment up or down and you are done the hour. Bigger machinery does not mean bigger power or even more useful power.
   <div>
    <br>
   </div>
   <div>
    BUT, if you are going for the expensive route, get the msot you can get.&#160; DCOE 45&#39;s are the ticket. Start with a small venturi and work up from there. Yes, you neeed to buy&#160; alterate venturies otherwise you have just wasted your money.These same carbs were used on the Sebring and Le Mans Spitfire coupes 1147 cc engines&#160; and proved 3% more power by tuning. To get the benifit you need to work at it.
    <br clear="all">
    <div>
     <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
      <p><strong><font color="#000099">Never be beaten by equipment.</font></strong></p>
     </div>
    </div>
    <br>
   </div>
  </div>
 </div>
 <br>
 <div class="gmail_quote">
  <div dir="ltr">
   On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:01 AM fubog1 via Fot &#60;
   <a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&#62; wrote:
   <br>
  </div>
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote">
   <font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="black"> 
    <div> 
     <font size="2">Yes HS4 carbs.</font>
    </div> 
    <div>
     <font size="2">Glen</font>
     <br> 
    </div> 
    <div> 
     <br> 
    </div> 
    <div> 
     <br> 
    </div> 
    <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
     -----Original Message-----
     <br> From: van.mulders.marcel &#60;
     <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&#62;
     <br> To: fubog1 &#60;
     <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&#62;
     <br> Cc: fot &#60;
     <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&#62;
     <br> Sent: Thu, Oct 18, 2018 5:48 pm
     <br> Subject: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni
     <br> 
     <br> 
     <div id="m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423"> 
      <div> 
       <div style="font-family: Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000;"> 
        <div>
         Glen,
        </div> 
        <div>
         With 1 1/2s carburettors, I suppose you mean HS4? The SU logic is a little weird. 1&#34; + 1/2&#34; = 6/8&#34; so you would think it are HS6s, but when talking about HS carburettors, 1 + 1/2 = 1 + 4/8 and they took the 4 to name these carbs HS4...
        </div> 
        <div>
         Marcel
        </div> 
        <div>
         <br clear="none">
        </div> 
        <hr id="m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423zwchr"> 
        <div class="m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt0596148954" id="m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt61649"> 
         <div>
          <b>Van: </b>&#34;fubog1&#34; &#60;
          <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&#62;
          <br clear="none">
          <b>Aan: </b>&#34;van mulders marcel&#34; &#60;
          <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&#62;, &#34;Mike Harmuth&#34; &#60;
          <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&#62;
          <br clear="none">
          <b>Cc: </b>&#34;fot&#34; &#60;
          <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&#62;
          <br clear="none">
          <b>Verzonden: </b>Donderdag 18 oktober 2018 22:39:39
          <br clear="none">
          <b>Onderwerp: </b>Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni
          <br clear="none">
         </div> 
         <br clear="none"> 
         <div>
          <span style="color: black; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: small;"> </span> 
          <div> 
           <span style="font-size: small;">Well I won&#39;t speculate on the cause, but I doubt that it&#39;s the SUs.<br clear="none"> </span>
          </div> 
          <div>
           <span style="font-size: small;">My small crank 1300 w/1 1/2s on a eurospec manifold w/Stahls header, &#34;big&#34; valve head, would buzz easily to 9k, still making power, if I let it.</span>
          </div> 
          <div>
           <span style="font-size: small;">Normal shift point 7800-8000.</span>
          </div> 
          <div>
           <span style="font-size: small;">FWIW...<br clear="none"> </span>
          </div> 
          <div>
           <span style="font-size: small;">Glen</span>
           <br clear="none"> 
          </div> 
          <div> 
           <br clear="none"> 
          </div> 
          <div> 
           <br clear="none"> 
          </div> 
          <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
           -----Original Message-----
           <br clear="none"> From: van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot &#60;
           <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&#62;
           <br clear="none"> To: Mike Harmuth &#60;
           <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&#62;
           <br clear="none"> Cc: fot &#60;
           <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&#62;
           <br clear="none"> Sent: Thu, Oct 18, 2018 2:12 pm
           <br clear="none"> Subject: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni
           <br clear="none"> 
           <br clear="none"> 
           <div id="m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423"> 
            <div> 
             <div style="font-family: Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000;"> 
              <div>
               -&#34;...hitting a wall at that point...&#34; : is it possible this is rather pointing to the camshaft than to the SU&#39;s? If it are the carburettors, maybe the power would decrease more gradually above 6500 rpm.
              </div> 
              <div>
               -In general one choke per cylinder is better, and 2 Webers 40 DCOE isn&#39;t overkill I think
              </div> 
              <div>
               - what about trying HS6 SU&#39;s on your actual manifold?
              </div> 
              <div>
               At what maximum rpm is your engine still reliable?
              </div> 
              <div>
               Marcel
              </div> 
              <div>
               <br clear="none">
              </div> 
              <hr id="m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423zwchr"> 
              <div class="m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt0105059393" id="m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt73080"> 
               <div>
                <b>Van: </b>&#34;fot&#34; &#60;
                <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&#62;
                <br clear="none">
                <b>Aan: </b>&#34;fot&#34; &#60;
                <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&#62;
                <br clear="none">
                <b>Verzonden: </b>Woensdag 17 oktober 2018 15:49:45
                <br clear="none">
                <b>Onderwerp: </b>[Fot] Weber vs Mikuni
                <br clear="none">
               </div> 
               <br clear="none"> 
               <div> 
                <div dir="ltr"> 
                 <div>
                  I&#39;m looking into switching out my twin HS4s on the 1296 race engine to either Weber or Mukinis. I know this has been done for years and I&#39;d like to get close the best set up out of the gate. 
                  <br clear="none">
                 </div> 
                 <br clear="none"> 
                 <div>
                  I don&#39;t think the SUs are up to the task of moving enough air with the new ported head and Stahl header. I&#39;ve worked on the SUs and gotten them to finally deliver a good AFR , 12.6, at 6500 RPM under load but I seem to hit a wall (figuratively) at that point. I suspect that the openings just aren&#39;t big enough to deliver the mass of air required. (spreadsheet or other flow calculator link appreciated)
                  <br clear="none">
                 </div> 
                 <div>
                  Biggest gate I suspect is the intake valve, 1 3/8&#34; head (~35mm) HS4 is ~38mm at best.
                  <br clear="none">
                 </div> 
                 <br clear="none"> 
                 <div>
                  Recommendations? I&#39;ve seen all these setups at the track, each with pluses, minuses and overkill cause it looks cool. 
                  <br clear="none">
                 </div> 
                 <br clear="none"> 
                 <div>
                  One weber DCOE 40 or 2? what jets, tubes etc for a starting point? Best manifold? 
                  <br clear="none">
                 </div> 
                 <br clear="none"> 
                 <div>
                  2 or 4 Mikuni 40? jet size?
                 </div> 
                 <br clear="none"> 
                 <div>
                  thanks
                 </div> 
                 <div>
                  mike
                  <br clear="none">
                 </div> 
                </div> 
                <br clear="none">_______________________________________________
                <br clear="none">
                <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>
                <br clear="none">
                <br clear="none">
                <a href="http://www.fot-racing.com" target="_blank">http://www.fot-racing.com</a>
                <br clear="none">
                <br clear="none">Donate: 
                <a href="http://www.team.net/donate.html" target="_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a>
                <br clear="none">Archive: 
                <a href="http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot" target="_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a>
                <br clear="none">Unsubscribe/Manage: 
                <a href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]" target="_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]</a>
                <br clear="none">
               </div> 
              </div> 
             </div> 
            </div> 
           </div> 
           <div class="m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt0105059393" id="m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt79273">
            _______________________________________________
            <br clear="none">
            <a>[email-masked]</a>
            <br clear="none">
            <br clear="none">
            <a>http://www.fot-racing.com</a>
            <br clear="none">
            <br clear="none">Donate: 
            <a>http://www.team.net/donate.html</a>
            <br clear="none">Archive: 
            <a>http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a>
            <br clear="none">Unsubscribe/Manage: 
            <a>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]</a>
            <br clear="none">
            <br clear="none">
            <br clear="none">
           </div> 
          </div> 
          <br clear="none">
         </div> 
        </div> 
       </div> 
      </div> 
     </div> 
    </div> </font>_______________________________________________
   <br> 
   <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>
   <br> 
   <br> 
   <a href="http://www.fot-racing.com" target="_blank">http://www.fot-racing.com</a>
   <br> 
   <br> Donate: 
   <a href="http://www.team.net/donate.html" target="_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a>
   <br> Archive: 
   <a href="http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot" target="_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a>
   <br> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
   <a href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]" target="_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]</a>
   <br> 
   <br> 
   <br> 
  </blockquote>
 </div> _______________________________________________
 <br>[email-masked]
 <br>
 <br>http://www.fot-racing.com
 <br>
 <br>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
 <br>Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
 <br>Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
 <br>
 <br>
 <br>
</blockquote> 
<br>&#160;</body></html>
 
------=_Part_93702_2082661634.1540038533273--

--===============1621866445325878409==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

--===============1621866445325878409==--

---

From: "van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 19:12:23 +0200 (CEST)

--===============5082327665962538703==
	boundary="=_6dc99f15-3815-469c-abdc-8aa9d3793ef3"

--=_6dc99f15-3815-469c-abdc-8aa9d3793ef3
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Van: "van mulders marcel" <[email-masked]> 
Aan: "Ron KRANTZ" <[email-masked]> 
Verzonden: Zaterdag 20 oktober 2018 19:11:29 
Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni 

SU's are not only very simple, but also very very clever because it is so well performing with that few parts. With one metering needle and a variable venturi, SU's do most things as well as the DCOE Webers with lots of jets, screws valves and drillings everywhere. Acceleration enrichment, cold start enrichment : SU's do it all with that one needle and venturi. On the road, even well tuned Webers need a lot more fuel than SU's. I had a TR6 with SU's for some years, and when travelling in group with other TR's, the PI and Weber TR6's had to refuel 3 times when I needed only 2 times (8 litres/100km or 30 miles with a gallon when driving relaxed). But of course,when looking for the ultimate performance, no carburetor can beat Webers and exchanging the jets etc is resembling the "mapping" of a modern fuel injected car. 
Marcel 

Van: "fot" <[email-masked]> 
Aan: "Kas Kastner" <[email-masked]>, "fot" <[email-masked]>, "fubog1" <[email-masked]> 
Verzonden: Zaterdag 20 oktober 2018 14:28:53 
Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni 

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:01 AM fubog1 via Fot < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > wrote: 

BQ_BEGIN

Yes HS4 carbs. 
Glen 

-----Original Message----- 
From: van.mulders.marcel < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > 
To: fubog1 < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > 
Cc: fot < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > 
Sent: Thu, Oct 18, 2018 5:48 pm 
Subject: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni 

Glen, 

Van: "fubog1" < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > 
Aan: "van mulders marcel" < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] >, "Mike Harmuth" < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > 
Cc: "fot" < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > 
Verzonden: Donderdag 18 oktober 2018 22:39:39 
Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni 

-----Original Message----- 
From: van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > 
To: Mike Harmuth < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > 
Cc: fot < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > 
Sent: Thu, Oct 18, 2018 2:12 pm 
Subject: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni 

Van: "fot" < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > 
Aan: "fot" < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > 
Verzonden: Woensdag 17 oktober 2018 15:49:45 
Onderwerp: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni 

thanks 
mike 

_______________________________________________ 
[ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] 

[ http://www.fot-racing.com/ | http://www.fot-racing.com ] 

Archive: [ http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot | http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot ] 
_______________________________________________ 
[email-masked] 

_______________________________________________ 
[ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] 

[ http://www.fot-racing.com/ | http://www.fot-racing.com ] 

Archive: [ http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot | http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot ] 

BQ_END

--=_6dc99f15-3815-469c-abdc-8aa9d3793ef3
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body><div style=3D"font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000"><div><br></div><div><br></div><hr id=3D=
"zwchr" data-marker=3D"__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker=3D"__HEADERS__"><b>Van=
: </b>"van mulders marcel" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Aan:=
 </b>"Ron KRANTZ" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Verzonden: </b>Zaterd=
ag 20 oktober 2018 19:11:29<br><b>Onderwerp: </b>Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni<=
br></div><br><div data-marker=3D"__QUOTED_TEXT__"><div style=3D"font-family=
: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000"><=
div>SU's are not only very simple, but also very very&nbsp; clever because =
it is so well performing with that few parts. With one metering needle and =
a variable venturi, SU's do most things as well as the DCOE Webers with lot=
s of jets, screws valves and drillings everywhere. Acceleration enrichment,=
 cold start enrichment : SU's do it all with that one needle and venturi. O=
n the road, even well tuned Webers need a lot more fuel than SU's. I had a =
TR6 with SU's for some years, and when&nbsp; travelling in group with other=
 TR's, the PI and Weber TR6's had to refuel 3 times when I needed only 2 ti=
mes (8 litres/100km or 30 miles with a gallon when driving relaxed). But of=
 course,when looking for the ultimate performance, no carburetor can beat&n=
bsp; Webers and exchanging the jets etc is resembling the&nbsp; "mapping" o=
f a modern fuel injected car.</div><div>Marcel</div><br><hr id=3D"zwchr"><d=
iv><b>Van: </b>"fot" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Aan: </b>"Kas Kastner=
" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;, "fot" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;, "fubog1" =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Verzonden: </b>Zaterdag 20 oktober 2018 14:28:=
53<br><b>Onderwerp: </b>Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni<br></div><br><div>I total=
ly agree with Kas that the S.U.'s are the simplest carbs around.  But there=
 are ways to get around the short comings (I call it chasing the weak link)=
.  I use to have the problems Kas noted but found a fix.  To keep the engin=
e running properly at high revs on long straights (RA and MidO) I had to in=
crease static fuel pressure to 6 psi to maintain 2.5 psi on the straights. =
 Then with development I needed more air/fuel so I taper bored the throat o=
f the S.U.'s and opened the .090" jets to .096" so I could still use the la=
rge array of .090 needles.  Plus a few other things to make it all work tog=
ether.<br>Ron Krantz<br>ReK Racing<br><br>
<blockquote>
  On October 19, 2018 at 12:31 PM Kas Kastner via Fot &lt;[email-masked]=
t&gt; wrote:
 <br>
 <br>
 <div dir=3D"ltr">
  Lots of times at the higher revs the float bowls of the S.U.'s just run o=
ut of gas and they need an enlargment of the needle and seat.Many times the=
 stock needle and seat j ust does not have enough capacity to flow the fuel=
 needed for the much richer needles used and the revvs. The SU's are so sim=
ple minded and easy to work with I'd want to very certain that the was a BI=
G benifit before changing to jetted carbs that need a ton of parts of you a=
re going to make use of the capacity of the units.
  <div>
   <br>
  </div>
  <div>
   &nbsp;If you do not tune for the day and the weather at that time what i=
s the point in having all that adustment. With the SU a couple flats adjust=
ment up or down and you are done the hour. Bigger machinery does not mean b=
igger power or even more useful power.
   <div>
    <br>
   </div>
   <div>
    BUT, if you are going for the expensive route, get the msot you can get=
.&nbsp; DCOE 45's are the ticket. Start with a small venturi and work up fr=
om there. Yes, you neeed to buy&nbsp; alterate venturies otherwise you have=
 just wasted your money.These same carbs were used on the Sebring and Le Ma=
ns Spitfire coupes 1147 cc engines&nbsp; and proved 3% more power by tuning=
. To get the benifit you need to work at it.
    <br clear=3D"all">
    <div>
     <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">
      <p><strong><span style=3D"color: #000099;">Never be beaten by equipme=
nt.</span></strong></p>
     </div>
    </div>
    <br>
   </div>
  </div>
 </div>
 <br>
 <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
  <div dir=3D"ltr">
   On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:01 AM fubog1 via Fot &lt;
   <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]=
et</a>&gt; wrote:
   <br>
  </div>
  <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote">
   <span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: small;">=20
    <div>=20
     <span style=3D"font-size: small;">Yes HS4 carbs.</span>
    </div>=20
    <div>
     <span style=3D"font-size: small;">Glen</span>
     <br>=20
    </div>=20
    <div>=20
     <br>=20
    </div>=20
    <div>=20
     <br>=20
    </div>=20
    <div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: bla=
ck;">
     -----Original Message-----
     <br> From: van.mulders.marcel &lt;
     <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">van=
[email-masked]</a>&gt;
     <br> To: fubog1 &lt;
     <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>=
&gt;
     <br> Cc: fot &lt;
     <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]=
.net</a>&gt;
     <br> Sent: Thu, Oct 18, 2018 5:48 pm
     <br> Subject: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni
     <br>=20
     <br>=20
     <div id=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423">=20
      <div>=20
       <div style=3D"font-family: Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-=
size: 10pt; color: #000000;">=20
        <div>
         Glen,
        </div>=20
        <div>
         With 1 1/2s carburettors, I suppose you mean HS4? The SU logic is =
a little weird. 1" + 1/2" =3D 6/8" so you would think it are HS6s, but when=
 talking about HS carburettors, 1 + 1/2 =3D 1 + 4/8 and they took the 4 to =
name these carbs HS4...
        </div>=20
        <div>
         Marcel
        </div>=20
        <div>
         <br clear=3D"none">
        </div>=20
        <hr id=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423zwchr">=20
        <div class=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt0596148954" id=
=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt61649">=20
         <div>
          <b>Van: </b>"fubog1" &lt;
          <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]=
m</a>&gt;
          <br clear=3D"none">
          <b>Aan: </b>"van mulders marcel" &lt;
          <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank=
">[email-masked]</a>&gt;, "Mike Harmuth" &lt;
          <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">ofracer@gm=
ail.com</a>&gt;
          <br clear=3D"none">
          <b>Cc: </b>"fot" &lt;
          <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">fot@autox=
.team.net</a>&gt;
          <br clear=3D"none">
          <b>Verzonden: </b>Donderdag 18 oktober 2018 22:39:39
          <br clear=3D"none">
          <b>Onderwerp: </b>Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni
          <br clear=3D"none">
         </div>=20
         <br clear=3D"none">=20
         <div>
          <span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-se=
rif; font-size: small;"> </span>=20
          <div>=20
           <span style=3D"font-size: small;">Well I won't speculate on the =
cause, but I doubt that it's the SUs.<br clear=3D"none"> </span>
          </div>=20
          <div>
           <span style=3D"font-size: small;">My small crank 1300 w/1 1/2s o=
n a eurospec manifold w/Stahls header, "big" valve head, would buzz easily =
to 9k, still making power, if I let it.</span>
          </div>=20
          <div>
           <span style=3D"font-size: small;">Normal shift point 7800-8000.<=
/span>
          </div>=20
          <div>
           <span style=3D"font-size: small;">FWIW...<br clear=3D"none"> </s=
pan>
          </div>=20
          <div>
           <span style=3D"font-size: small;">Glen</span>
           <br clear=3D"none">=20
          </div>=20
          <div>=20
           <br clear=3D"none">=20
          </div>=20
          <div>=20
           <br clear=3D"none">=20
          </div>=20
          <div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; colo=
r: black;">
           -----Original Message-----
           <br clear=3D"none"> From: van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot &lt;
           <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">fot@auto=
x.team.net</a>&gt;
           <br clear=3D"none"> To: Mike Harmuth &lt;
           <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">ofracer@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;
           <br clear=3D"none"> Cc: fot &lt;
           <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">fot@auto=
x.team.net</a>&gt;
           <br clear=3D"none"> Sent: Thu, Oct 18, 2018 2:12 pm
           <br clear=3D"none"> Subject: Re: [Fot] Weber vs Mikuni
           <br clear=3D"none">=20
           <br clear=3D"none">=20
           <div id=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423">=20
            <div>=20
             <div style=3D"font-family: Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;=
 font-size: 10pt; color: #000000;">=20
              <div>
               -"...hitting a wall at that point..." : is it possible this =
is rather pointing to the camshaft than to the SU's? If it are the carburet=
tors, maybe the power would decrease more gradually above 6500 rpm.
              </div>=20
              <div>
               -In general one choke per cylinder is better, and 2 Webers 4=
0 DCOE isn't overkill I think
              </div>=20
              <div>
               - what about trying HS6 SU's on your actual manifold?
              </div>=20
              <div>
               At what maximum rpm is your engine still reliable?
              </div>=20
              <div>
               Marcel
              </div>=20
              <div>
               <br clear=3D"none">
              </div>=20
              <hr id=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423zwchr">=20
              <div class=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt010505939=
3" id=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt73080">=20
               <div>
                <b>Van: </b>"fot" &lt;
                <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">fot=
@autox.team.net</a>&gt;
                <br clear=3D"none">
                <b>Aan: </b>"fot" &lt;
                <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">fot=
@autox.team.net</a>&gt;
                <br clear=3D"none">
                <b>Verzonden: </b>Woensdag 17 oktober 2018 15:49:45
                <br clear=3D"none">
                <b>Onderwerp: </b>[Fot] Weber vs Mikuni
                <br clear=3D"none">
               </div>=20
               <br clear=3D"none">=20
               <div>=20
                <div dir=3D"ltr">=20
                 <div>
                  I'm looking into switching out my twin HS4s on the 1296 r=
ace engine to either Weber or Mukinis. I know this has been done for years =
and I'd like to get close the best set up out of the gate.=20
                  <br clear=3D"none">
                 </div>=20
                 <br clear=3D"none">=20
                 <div>
                  I don't think the SUs are up to the task of moving enough=
 air with the new ported head and Stahl header. I've worked on the SUs and =
gotten them to finally deliver a good AFR , 12.6, at 6500 RPM under load bu=
t I seem to hit a wall (figuratively) at that point. I suspect that the ope=
nings just aren't big enough to deliver the mass of air required. (spreadsh=
eet or other flow calculator link appreciated)
                  <br clear=3D"none">
                 </div>=20
                 <div>
                  Biggest gate I suspect is the intake valve, 1 3/8" head (=
~35mm) HS4 is ~38mm at best.
                  <br clear=3D"none">
                 </div>=20
                 <br clear=3D"none">=20
                 <div>
                  Recommendations? I've seen all these setups at the track,=
 each with pluses, minuses and overkill cause it looks cool.=20
                  <br clear=3D"none">
                 </div>=20
                 <br clear=3D"none">=20
                 <div>
                  One weber DCOE 40 or 2? what jets, tubes etc for a starti=
ng point? Best manifold?=20
                  <br clear=3D"none">
                 </div>=20
                 <br clear=3D"none">=20
                 <div>
                  2 or 4 Mikuni 40? jet size?
                 </div>=20
                 <br clear=3D"none">=20
                 <div>
                  thanks
                 </div>=20
                 <div>
                  mike
                  <br clear=3D"none">
                 </div>=20
                </div>=20
                <br clear=3D"none">________________________________________=
_______
                <br clear=3D"none">
                <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">fot=
@autox.team.net</a>
                <br clear=3D"none">
                <br clear=3D"none">
                <a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://www.fot-racing.com</a>
                <br clear=3D"none">
                <br clear=3D"none">Donate:=20
                <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a>
                <br clear=3D"none">Archive:=20
                <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot" target=3D"_bl=
ank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a>
                <br clear=3D"none">Unsubscribe/Manage:=20
                <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/van.mu=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/op=
tions/fot/[email-masked]</a>
                <br clear=3D"none">
               </div>=20
              </div>=20
             </div>=20
            </div>=20
           </div>=20
           <div class=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt0105059393" =
id=3D"m_-3204379643218842764yiv7557179423yqt79273">
            _______________________________________________
            <br clear=3D"none">
            <a>[email-masked]</a>
            <br clear=3D"none">
            <br clear=3D"none">
            <a>http://www.fot-racing.com</a>
            <br clear=3D"none">
            <br clear=3D"none">Donate:=20
            <a>http://www.team.net/donate.html</a>
            <br clear=3D"none">Archive:=20
            <a>http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a>
            <br clear=3D"none">Unsubscribe/Manage:=20
            <a>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]</a>
            <br clear=3D"none">
            <br clear=3D"none">
            <br clear=3D"none">
           </div>=20
          </div>=20
          <br clear=3D"none">
         </div>=20
        </div>=20
       </div>=20
      </div>=20
     </div>=20
    </div> </span>_______________________________________________
   <br>=20
   <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]=
et</a>
   <br>=20
   <br>=20
   <a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.fot-r=
acing.com</a>
   <br>=20
   <br> Donate:=20
   <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www=
.team.net/donate.html</a>
   <br> Archive:=20
   <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot" target=3D"_blank">http://w=
ww.team.net/pipermail/fot</a>
   <br> Unsubscribe/Manage:=20
   <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]=
m" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/kaskastner@g=
mail.com</a>
   <br>=20
   <br>=20
   <br>=20
  </blockquote>
 </div> _______________________________________________
 <br>[email-masked]
 <br>
 <br>http://www.fot-racing.com
 <br>
 <br>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
 <br>Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
 <br>Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/rkrantz7=
[email-masked]
 <br>
 <br>
 <br>
</blockquote>=20
<br>&nbsp;
 <br>_______________________________________________<br>[email-masked]<=
br><br>http://www.fot-racing.com<br><br>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.=
html<br>Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot<br>Unsubscribe/Manage: h=
ttp://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]</div=
></div><br></div></div></body></html>
--=_6dc99f15-3815-469c-abdc-8aa9d3793ef3--

--===============5082327665962538703==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

--===============5082327665962538703==--