Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in

From: fubog1 via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:22:39 -0400

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 The pattern is everything when setting gears up, if they don't mesh properly, they're gonna run hot, make noise, and fail.
There are plenty of photos and illustrations of different patterns on the internet.
I mix a little injuneers blue in with lubriplate white grease, paint a half dozen teeth or so, and wrench the ring back and forth a few times, while holding the pinion flange for extra preload; repeat 3 or 4 times around the ring.

I use set-up bearings but it's not unusual to have to make fine adjustments once the good bearings are fitted.
Preload is equally important, I don't use the pinion crush collar either, I fab a solid collar and fit shims; a case spreader is easier to set the carrier in but I've done many without.
Once you have everything set, you can put a box-end wrench on one of the ring gear bolts and work it back and forth hard and you can feel when the mesh is nice and smooth in both directions.
A couple things to watch for, sometimes the carrier will have runout from warpage when it was welded, you'll never get a correct backlash setting or a good pattern all the way around, and I often find the carrier bearing inner races turning on the journal, if not too worn a little loctite is your friend but if that race turns on the carrier it won't live long...
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Kramer via Fot <[email-masked]>
To: Michael Porter <[email-masked]>
Cc: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 8:57 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in

I would add that if you buy the same brand bearing you can grind out the ID of the old races to make it easier to remove them for test assemblies.

Bob Kramer

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Michael Porter <[email-masked]> wrote:

On 9/10/2018 3:41 PM, Bob Kramer via      Fot wrote:

I can't answer that but one could measure the        dimension of the pinion head and subtract it from the total        shown to get the depth you would want. 

Bob Kramer

    I suspect that there are variations in parts due to manufacturing    errors, tolerances stacking up, etc.  Most of the parts made at the    time were not subject to the sort of scrutiny and    computer-controlled measurements that are common today (although    even that isn't a guarantee of uniformity--I had to redo a bunch of    Toyota Supra IRS diffs in the early `80s because the computer that    assembled them was misprogrammed and it swapped the shim stacks for    the carrier bearings left to right).
    
    That said, the safest way to get the diff repaired properly is    attention to the shims when disassembling, and then putting the    shims back in the same thicknesses and checking for the proper    engagement pattern.  It does require some educated guesswork, and,    often, disassembling and assembling a couple of times, but, if the    pattern is right, the diff will be reliable.  I'd also recommend    using hard shims in place of crush spacers on the pinion whenever    possible if the pinion originally used those.  It also is a bit    easier if one uses the case spreader judiciously on those housings    requiring same, and doesn't crank it up too much.  Spread the case    just enough to get the carrier and bearings out.  Figuring out the    shim packs will be easier.

    Cheers.  
    
-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

_______________________________________________
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<div> <font size="2">The pattern is everything when setting gears up, if they don't mesh properly, they're gonna run hot, make noise, and fail.</font></div>

<div><font size="2">There are plenty of photos and illustrations of different patterns on the internet.</font></div>

<div><font size="2">I mix a little injuneers blue in with lubriplate white grease, paint a half dozen teeth or so, and wrench the ring back and forth a few times, while holding the pinion flange for extra preload; repeat 3 or 4 times around the ring.<br>

</font></div>

<div><font size="2">I use set-up bearings but it's not unusual to have to make fine adjustments once the good bearings are fitted.</font></div>

<div><font size="2">Preload is equally important, I don't use the pinion crush collar either, I fab a solid collar and fit shims; a case spreader is easier to set the carrier in but I've done many without.</font></div>

<div><font size="2">Once you have everything set, you can put a box-end wrench on one of the ring gear bolts and work it back and forth hard and you can feel when the mesh is nice and smooth in both directions.</font></div>

<div><font size="2">A couple things to watch for, sometimes the carrier will have runout from warpage when it was welded, you'll never get a correct backlash setting or a good pattern all the way around, and I often find the carrier bearing inner races turning on the journal, if not too worn a little loctite is your friend but if that race turns on the carrier it won't live long...</font></div>

<div><font size="2">Glen<br>

</font></div>

<div> <br>

</div>

<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original Message-----<br>

From: Bob Kramer via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>

To: Michael Porter &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>

Cc: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>

Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 8:57 am<br>

Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in<br>

<br>

<div id="AOLMsgPart_1.2_69f3ee0f-771d-4796-bddc-148817a98a67">

<div class="aolReplacedBody">

<div dir="ltr">I would add that if you buy the same brand bearing you can grind out the ID of the old races to make it easier to remove them for test assemblies.</div>

<div class="aolmail_gmail_extra"><br clear="all">

<div>

<div class="aolmail_gmail_signature">

<div dir="ltr">Bob Kramer</div>

</div>

</div>

<br>

<div class="aolmail_gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Michael Porter <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class="aolmail_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div>

<div class="aolmail_m_4645890251388782201moz-cite-prefix">On 9/10/2018 3:41 PM, Bob Kramer via
      Fot wrote:<br>

    </div>

    <blockquote>

<div dir="ltr">I can't answer that but one could measure the
        dimension of the pinion head and subtract it from the total
        shown to get the depth you would want.&nbsp;</div>

<div class="aolmail_gmail_extra"><br clear="all">

<div>

<div class="aolmail_m_4645890251388782201gmail_signature">

<div dir="ltr">Bob Kramer</div>

          </div>

        </div>

      </div>

    </blockquote>
    <br>

    I suspect that there are variations in parts due to manufacturing
    errors, tolerances stacking up, etc.&nbsp; Most of the parts made at the
    time were not subject to the sort of scrutiny and
    computer-controlled measurements that are common today (although
    even that isn't a guarantee of uniformity--I had to redo a bunch of
    Toyota Supra IRS diffs in the early `80s because the computer that
    assembled them was misprogrammed and it swapped the shim stacks for
    the carrier bearings left to right).<br>

    <br>

    That said, the safest way to get the diff repaired properly is
    attention to the shims when disassembling, and then putting the
    shims back in the same thicknesses and checking for the proper
    engagement pattern.&nbsp; It does require some educated guesswork, and,
    often, disassembling and assembling a couple of times, but, if the
    pattern is right, the diff will be reliable.&nbsp; I'd also recommend
    using hard shims in place of crush spacers on the pinion whenever
    possible if the pinion originally used those.&nbsp; It also is a bit
    easier if one uses the case spreader judiciously on those housings
    requiring same, and doesn't crank it up too much.&nbsp; Spread the case
    just enough to get the carrier and bearings out.&nbsp; Figuring out the
    shim packs will be easier.<br>

    <br>

    <br>

    Cheers.&nbsp; <br>

<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
    <pre class="aolmail_m_4645890251388782201moz-signature">-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....</pre>
  </font></span></div>

</blockquote></div>

<br>

</div>

</div>

</div>

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From: "van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 08:23:13 +0200 (CEST)

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Sometimes, I find that it is not possible to get the backlash and mesh pattern right at the same time (on a diff that has not been welded). I go for the correct mesh pattern then, with a backlash that is greater than recommended. Is that only a sign of wear ? 
Marcel 

Van: "fot" <[email-masked]> 
Aan: "Bob Kramer" <[email-masked]>, [email-masked], "fot" <[email-masked]> 
Verzonden: Woensdag 12 september 2018 19:22:39 
Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in 

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bob Kramer via Fot <[email-masked]> 
To: Michael Porter <[email-masked]> 
Cc: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph <[email-masked]> 
Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 8:57 am 
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in 

Bob Kramer 

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Michael Porter < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > wrote: 

BQ_BEGIN

Bob Kramer 

Cheers. 
-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

BQ_END

_______________________________________________ 
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<html><body><div style=3D"font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000"><div><br></div><div>Sometimes, I find t=
hat it is not possible to get the backlash and mesh pattern right at the sa=
me time (on a diff that has not been welded). I go for the correct mesh pat=
tern then, with a backlash that is greater than recommended. Is that only a=
 sign of wear ?&nbsp;</div><div>Marcel</div><hr id=3D"zwchr" data-marker=3D=
"__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker=3D"__HEADERS__"><b>Van: </b>"fot" &lt;fot@au=
tox.team.net&gt;<br><b>Aan: </b>"Bob Kramer" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;, m=
[email-masked], "fot" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Verzonden: </b>Woen=
sdag 12 september 2018 19:22:39<br><b>Onderwerp: </b>Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown a=
nd pinion gear break in<br></div><br><div data-marker=3D"__QUOTED_TEXT__"><=
span color=3D"black" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" data-=
mce-style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-=
size: small;" style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-se=
rif; font-size: small;">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">

<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_0ef1842b-a91c-4583-a1b1-489a8d2c7f0d">
<span size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=3D"black" data=
-mce-style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font=
-size: small;" style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-s=
erif; font-size: small;">

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">

<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_3c5bcc87-bb0b-436d-ac40-3730f0a9151a">
<span size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=3D"black" data=
-mce-style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font=
-size: small;" style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-s=
erif; font-size: small;">

<div> <span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-s=
ize: small;">The pattern is everything when setting gears up, if they don't=
 mesh properly, they're gonna run hot, make noise, and fail.</span></div>

<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">There are plenty of photos and illustrations of different patte=
rns on the internet.</span></div>

<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">I mix a little injuneers blue in with lubriplate white grease, =
paint a half dozen teeth or so, and wrench the ring back and forth a few ti=
mes, while holding the pinion flange for extra preload; repeat 3 or 4 times=
 around the ring.<br>

</span></div>

<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">I use set-up bearings but it's not unusual to have to make fine=
 adjustments once the good bearings are fitted.</span></div>

<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">Preload is equally important, I don't use the pinion crush coll=
ar either, I fab a solid collar and fit shims; a case spreader is easier to=
 set the carrier in but I've done many without.</span></div>

<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">Once you have everything set, you can put a box-end wrench on o=
ne of the ring gear bolts and work it back and forth hard and you can feel =
when the mesh is nice and smooth in both directions.</span></div>

<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">A couple things to watch for, sometimes the carrier will have r=
unout from warpage when it was welded, you'll never get a correct backlash =
setting or a good pattern all the way around, and I often find the carrier =
bearing inner races turning on the journal, if not too worn a little loctit=
e is your friend but if that race turns on the carrier it won't live long..=
.</span></div>

<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">Glen<br>

</span></div>

<div> <br>

</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----=
Original Message-----<br>

<br>

<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1.2_69f3ee0f-771d-4796-bddc-148817a98a67">

<div class=3D"aolReplacedBody">

<div dir=3D"ltr">I would add that if you buy the same brand bearing you can=
 grind out the ID of the old races to make it easier to remove them for tes=
t assemblies.</div>

<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">

<div>

<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_signature">

<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Kramer</div>

</div>

</div>

<br>

<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Michael=
 Porter <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferr=
er" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br>

<blockquote class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
 =20

<div>
   =20

<div class=3D"aolmail_m_4645890251388782201moz-cite-prefix">On 9/10/2018 3:=
41 PM, Bob Kramer via
      Fot wrote:<br>

    </div>

    <blockquote>
     =20
     =20

<div dir=3D"ltr">I can't answer that but one could measure the
        dimension of the pinion head and subtract it from the total
        shown to get the depth you would want.&nbsp;</div>

     =20

<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">
       =20

<div>
         =20

<div class=3D"aolmail_m_4645890251388782201gmail_signature">
           =20

<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Kramer</div>

          </div>

        </div>

      </div>

    </blockquote>
    <br>

    errors, tolerances stacking up, etc.&nbsp; Most of the parts made at th=
e

    <br>

    <br>

    <br>

    Cheers.&nbsp; <br>

<span class=3D"aolmail_HOEnZb"><span color=3D"#888888" data-mce-style=3D"co=
lor: #888888;" style=3D"color: #888888;">
    <pre class=3D"aolmail_m_4645890251388782201moz-signature">--=20

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance=
....</pre>
  </span></span></div>

</blockquote></div>

<br>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]<=
/a><br>

<br>

<a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.fot-raci=
ng.com</a><br>

<br>

//www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>

Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot" target=3D"_blank">ht=
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From: Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 05:52:10 -0500

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Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets are Oerlikon=
 as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different mesh patte=
rn. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of the proper mesh pattern=
 for the Oerlikon type gears?  I can not find one. I contacted Bastuck with n=
o luck there.=20

Thanks.=20

Greg

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 12, 2018, at 12:22 PM, fubog1 via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> The pattern is everything when setting gears up, if they don't mesh proper=
ly, they're gonna run hot, make noise, and fail.
> There are plenty of photos and illustrations of different patterns on the i=
nternet.
> I mix a little injuneers blue in with lubriplate white grease, paint a hal=
f dozen teeth or so, and wrench the ring back and forth a few times, while h=
olding the pinion flange for extra preload; repeat 3 or 4 times around the r=
ing.
> I use set-up bearings but it's not unusual to have to make fine adjustment=
s once the good bearings are fitted.
> Preload is equally important, I don't use the pinion crush collar either, I=
 fab a solid collar and fit shims; a case spreader is easier to set the carr=
ier in but I've done many without.
> Once you have everything set, you can put a box-end wrench on one of the r=
ing gear bolts and work it back and forth hard and you can feel when the mes=
h is nice and smooth in both directions.
> A couple things to watch for, sometimes the carrier will have runout from w=
arpage when it was welded, you'll never get a correct backlash setting or a g=
ood pattern all the way around, and I often find the carrier bearing inner r=
aces turning on the journal, if not too worn a little loctite is your friend=
 but if that race turns on the carrier it won't live long...
> I would add that if you buy the same brand bearing you can grind out the I=
D of the old races to make it easier to remove them for test assemblies.
> I can't answer that but one could measure the dimension of the pinion head=
 and subtract it from the total shown to get the depth you would want.=20
>=20
> Bob Kramer
>=20
> I suspect that there are variations in parts due to manufacturing errors, t=
olerances stacking up, etc.  Most of the parts made at the time were not sub=
ject to the sort of scrutiny and computer-controlled measurements that are c=
ommon today (although even that isn't a guarantee of uniformity--I had to re=
do a bunch of Toyota Supra IRS diffs in the early `80s because the computer t=
hat assembled them was misprogrammed and it swapped the shim stacks for the c=
arrier bearings left to right).
>=20
> That said, the safest way to get the diff repaired properly is attention t=
o the shims when disassembling, and then putting the shims back in the same t=
hicknesses and checking for the proper engagement pattern.  It does require s=
ome educated guesswork, and, often, disassembling and assembling a couple of=
 times, but, if the pattern is right, the diff will be reliable.  I'd also r=
ecommend using hard shims in place of crush spacers on the pinion whenever p=
ossible if the pinion originally used those.  It also is a bit easier if one=
 uses the case spreader judiciously on those housings requiring same, and do=
esn't crank it up too much.  Spread the case just enough to get the carrier a=
nd bearings out.  Figuring out the shim packs will be easier.
>=20
>=20
> Cheers. =20
>  --=20
>=20
>=20
> Michael Porter
> Roswell, NM
>=20
>=20
> Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distanc=
e....
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]=
om
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/gblake58tr3@=
icloud.com

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<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets are&nbsp;<span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Oerlikon as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different mesh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of the proper mesh pattern for the&nbsp;Oerlikon type gears? &nbsp;I can not find one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck there.&nbsp;</span><div><br></div><div>Thanks.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Greg<br><br><div id="AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Sep 12, 2018, at 12:22 PM, fubog1 via Fot &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">

</font></div>

</font></div>

<div> <br>

</div>

From: Bob Kramer via Fot &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

To: Michael Porter &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

Cc: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

<br>

<div>

</div>

</div>

<br>

  

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    <blockquote>

      

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          </div>

        </div>

      </div>

    </blockquote>
    <br>

    <br>

    <br>

    <br>

    Cheers.&nbsp; <br>

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

</blockquote></div>

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</font></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span><a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a></span><br><span></span><br><span><a href="http://www.fot-racing.com">http://www.fot-racing.com</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Donate: <a href="http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a></span><br><span>Archive: <a href="http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a></span><br><span>Unsubscribe/Manage: <a href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]</a></span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>
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From: Bill via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 06:42:37 -0700

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That=E2=80=99s pretty much my method, though I=E2=80=99m a little light =
on the pinion stuff. I guess I=E2=80=99ve got away with something. I set =
backlash, put blue on ALL the pinion gears, and then look for a decent =
engagement pattern on the loosest tooth and not too deep on the =
tightest. I=E2=80=99ve never had a ring gear that was so far off that I =
couldn=E2=80=99t make that happen, but then I=E2=80=99ve never used a =
new set. I don=E2=80=99t have a case spreader, I could probably make up =
one, but I just stick the thing in the press and give it a little =
squeeze. That=E2=80=99s probably more stress on the case than a spreader =
would apply to get the same displacement, but it=E2=80=99s worked well =
enough for the times I=E2=80=99ve rebuilt diffs to make it easy to be =
fussy about shimming. I keep at it until I get backlash and engagement =
exactly how I want it.=20

> On Sep 12, 2018, at 10:22 AM, fubog1 via Fot <[email-masked]> =
wrote:
>=20
> The pattern is everything when setting gears up, if they don't mesh =
properly, they're gonna run hot, make noise, and fail.
> There are plenty of photos and illustrations of different patterns on =
the internet.
> I mix a little injuneers blue in with lubriplate white grease, paint a =
half dozen teeth or so, and wrench the ring back and forth a few times, =
while holding the pinion flange for extra preload; repeat 3 or 4 times =
around the ring.
> I use set-up bearings but it's not unusual to have to make fine =
adjustments once the good bearings are fitted.
> Preload is equally important, I don't use the pinion crush collar =
either, I fab a solid collar and fit shims; a case spreader is easier to =
set the carrier in but I've done many without.
> Once you have everything set, you can put a box-end wrench on one of =
the ring gear bolts and work it back and forth hard and you can feel =
when the mesh is nice and smooth in both directions.
> A couple things to watch for, sometimes the carrier will have runout =
from warpage when it was welded, you'll never get a correct backlash =
setting or a good pattern all the way around, and I often find the =
carrier bearing inner races turning on the journal, if not too worn a =
little loctite is your friend but if that race turns on the carrier it =
won't live long...
> I would add that if you buy the same brand bearing you can grind out =
the ID of the old races to make it easier to remove them for test =
assemblies.
>=20
> Bob Kramer
>=20
> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Michael Porter <[email-masked] =
> I can't answer that but one could measure the dimension of the pinion =
head and subtract it from the total shown to get the depth you would =
want.=20
>=20
> Bob Kramer
>=20
> I suspect that there are variations in parts due to manufacturing =
errors, tolerances stacking up, etc.  Most of the parts made at the time =
were not subject to the sort of scrutiny and computer-controlled =
measurements that are common today (although even that isn't a guarantee =
of uniformity--I had to redo a bunch of Toyota Supra IRS diffs in the =
early `80s because the computer that assembled them was misprogrammed =
and it swapped the shim stacks for the carrier bearings left to right).
>=20
> That said, the safest way to get the diff repaired properly is =
attention to the shims when disassembling, and then putting the shims =
back in the same thicknesses and checking for the proper engagement =
pattern.  It does require some educated guesswork, and, often, =
disassembling and assembling a couple of times, but, if the pattern is =
right, the diff will be reliable.  I'd also recommend using hard shims =
in place of crush spacers on the pinion whenever possible if the pinion =
originally used those.  It also is a bit easier if one uses the case =
spreader judiciously on those housings requiring same, and doesn't crank =
it up too much.  Spread the case just enough to get the carrier and =
bearings out.  Figuring out the shim packs will be easier.
>=20
>=20
> Cheers. =20
>  --=20
>=20
>=20
> Michael Porter
> Roswell, NM
>=20
>=20
> Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking =
distance....
> http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =
<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot =
<http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked] =
<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

--Apple-Mail=_F9E109BA-52B1-4BC5-998C-2E98590266A1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s pretty much my method, though I=E2=80=99m a =
little light on the pinion stuff. I guess I=E2=80=99ve got away with =
something. I set backlash, put blue on ALL the pinion gears, and then =
look for a decent engagement pattern on the loosest tooth and not too =
deep on the tightest. I=E2=80=99ve never had a ring gear that was so far =
off that I couldn=E2=80=99t make that happen, but then I=E2=80=99ve =
never used a new set. I don=E2=80=99t have a case spreader, I could =
probably make up one, but I just stick the thing in the press and give =
it a little squeeze. That=E2=80=99s probably more stress on the case =
than a spreader would apply to get the same displacement, but it=E2=80=99s=
 worked well enough for the times I=E2=80=99ve rebuilt diffs to make it =
easy to be fussy about shimming. I keep at it until I get backlash and =
engagement exactly how I want it.&nbsp;<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Sep =
12, 2018, at 10:22 AM, fubog1 via Fot &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><font =
size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica; font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">=

<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_0ef1842b-a91c-4583-a1b1-489a8d2c7f0d" class=3D"">
<font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=3D"">

<div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica; font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">=

<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_3c5bcc87-bb0b-436d-ac40-3730f0a9151a" class=3D"">
<font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=3D"">

<div class=3D""> <font size=3D"2" class=3D"">The pattern is everything =
when setting gears up, if they don't mesh properly, they're gonna run =
hot, make noise, and fail.</font></div>

<div class=3D""><font size=3D"2" class=3D"">There are plenty of photos =
and illustrations of different patterns on the internet.</font></div>

<div class=3D""><font size=3D"2" class=3D"">I mix a little injuneers =
blue in with lubriplate white grease, paint a half dozen teeth or so, =
and wrench the ring back and forth a few times, while holding the pinion =
flange for extra preload; repeat 3 or 4 times around the ring.<br =
class=3D"">

</font></div>

<div class=3D""><font size=3D"2" class=3D"">I use set-up bearings but =
it's not unusual to have to make fine adjustments once the good bearings =
are fitted.</font></div>

<div class=3D""><font size=3D"2" class=3D"">Preload is equally =
important, I don't use the pinion crush collar either, I fab a solid =
collar and fit shims; a case spreader is easier to set the carrier in =
but I've done many without.</font></div>

<div class=3D""><font size=3D"2" class=3D"">Once you have everything =
set, you can put a box-end wrench on one of the ring gear bolts and work =
it back and forth hard and you can feel when the mesh is nice and smooth =
in both directions.</font></div>

<div class=3D""><font size=3D"2" class=3D"">A couple things to watch =
for, sometimes the carrier will have runout from warpage when it was =
welded, you'll never get a correct backlash setting or a good pattern =
all the way around, and I often find the carrier bearing inner races =
turning on the journal, if not too worn a little loctite is your friend =
but if that race turns on the carrier it won't live long...</font></div>

<div class=3D""><font size=3D"2" class=3D"">Glen<br class=3D"">

</font></div>

<div class=3D""> <br class=3D"">

</div>

<div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica; font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">

From: Bob Kramer via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">

To: Michael Porter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">

Cc: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">

Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 8:57 am<br class=3D"">

Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in<br class=3D"">

<br class=3D"">

<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1.2_69f3ee0f-771d-4796-bddc-148817a98a67" =
class=3D"">

<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I would add that if you buy the same brand =
bearing you can grind out the ID of the old races to make it easier to =
remove them for test assemblies.</div>

<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all" class=3D"">

<div class=3D"">

<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Bob Kramer</div>

</div>

</div>

<br class=3D"">

<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 2:08 PM, =
Michael Porter <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br class=3D"">

<blockquote class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
 =20

<div class=3D"">
   =20

<div class=3D"aolmail_m_4645890251388782201moz-cite-prefix">On 9/10/2018 =
3:41 PM, Bob Kramer via
      Fot wrote:<br class=3D"">

    </div>

    <blockquote class=3D"">
     =20
     =20

<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I can't answer that but one could measure =
the
        dimension of the pinion head and subtract it from the total
        shown to get the depth you would want.&nbsp;</div>

     =20

<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all" class=3D"">
       =20

<div class=3D"">
         =20

<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Bob Kramer</div>

          </div>

        </div>

      </div>

    </blockquote>
    <br class=3D"">

    I suspect that there are variations in parts due to manufacturing
    errors, tolerances stacking up, etc.&nbsp; Most of the parts made at =
the
    time were not subject to the sort of scrutiny and
    computer-controlled measurements that are common today (although
    even that isn't a guarantee of uniformity--I had to redo a bunch of
    Toyota Supra IRS diffs in the early `80s because the computer that
    assembled them was misprogrammed and it swapped the shim stacks for
    the carrier bearings left to right).<br class=3D"">

    <br class=3D"">

    That said, the safest way to get the diff repaired properly is
    attention to the shims when disassembling, and then putting the
    shims back in the same thicknesses and checking for the proper
    engagement pattern.&nbsp; It does require some educated guesswork, =
and,
    often, disassembling and assembling a couple of times, but, if the
    pattern is right, the diff will be reliable.&nbsp; I'd also =
recommend
    using hard shims in place of crush spacers on the pinion whenever
    possible if the pinion originally used those.&nbsp; It also is a bit
    easier if one uses the case spreader judiciously on those housings
    requiring same, and doesn't crank it up too much.&nbsp; Spread the =
case
    just enough to get the carrier and bearings out.&nbsp; Figuring out =
the
    shim packs will be easier.<br class=3D"">

    <br class=3D"">

    <br class=3D"">

    Cheers.&nbsp; <br class=3D"">

<span class=3D"aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888" class=3D"">
    <pre class=3D"aolmail_m_4645890251388782201moz-signature">--=20

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking =
distance....</pre>
  </font></span></div>

</blockquote></div>

<br class=3D"">

</div>

</div>

</div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">

<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a><br class=3D"">

<br class=3D"">

<a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br class=3D"">

<br class=3D"">

class=3D"">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br class=3D"">

Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br class=3D"">

href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]</a><br=
 class=3D"">

<br class=3D"">

<br class=3D"">

</div>

</font>
</div>

</div>

</font>
</div>

</div>
</font>_______________________________________________<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" class=3D"">[email-masked]</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">http://www.fot-racing.com<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html<br class=3D"">Archive: =
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class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: "van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 22:00:09 +0200 (CEST)

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I think, if the meshing pattern on both thrust and overrun are the same (contact between the teeth are at the same spots on thrust and overrun), the set up must be correct and you can disregard the difference between Oerlikon and Gleason gears in this aspect. Transferring shims from one side of the carrier to the other has most effect on the backlash and less on the depth of the meshing, and vice versa by adding or removing shims on the pinion. Maybe adding or removing a shim of the same thickness has not the same effect on Gleason and Oerlikon gears, but I believe the changes (mesh pattern and backlash) are going in the same direction on both makes. But I'm from Belgium ... :-) 
Marcel 

Van: "fot" <[email-masked]> 
Aan: "fubog1" <[email-masked]> 
Cc: "fot" <[email-masked]> 
Verzonden: Donderdag 13 september 2018 12:52:10 
Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in 

Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets are Oerlikon as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different mesh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of the proper mesh pattern for the Oerlikon type gears? I can not find one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck there. 
Thanks. 

Greg 

Sent from my iPhone 

On Sep 12, 2018, at 12:22 PM, fubog1 via Fot < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > wrote: 

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bob Kramer via Fot < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > 
To: Michael Porter < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > 
Cc: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph < [ mailto:[email-masked] | [email-masked] ] > 
Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 8:57 am 
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in 

Bob Kramer 

BQ_BEGIN

BQ_BEGIN

Bob Kramer 

Cheers. 
-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

BQ_END

BQ_END

BQ_BEGIN

BQ_END

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<html><body><div style=3D"font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000"><div>I think, if the meshing pattern on=
 both thrust and overrun are the same (contact between the teeth are at the=
 same spots on thrust and overrun), the set up must be correct and you can =
disregard the difference between Oerlikon and Gleason gears in this aspect.=
 Transferring shims from one side of the carrier to the other has most effe=
ct on the backlash and less on the depth of the meshing, and vice versa by =
adding or removing shims on the pinion.&nbsp; Maybe adding or removing a sh=
im of the same thickness has not the same effect on Gleason and Oerlikon ge=
ars, but I believe the changes (mesh pattern and backlash) are going in the=
 same direction on both makes. But I'm from Belgium ... :-)</div><div>Marce=
l</div><hr id=3D"zwchr" data-marker=3D"__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker=3D"__H=
EADERS__"><b>Van: </b>"fot" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Aan: </b>"fubo=
g1" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>"fot" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<b=
r><b>Verzonden: </b>Donderdag 13 september 2018 12:52:10<br><b>Onderwerp: <=
/b>Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in<br></div><br><div data-mar=
ker=3D"__QUOTED_TEXT__">Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastu=
ck gear sets are&nbsp;<span>Oerlikon as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparentl=
y they require a different mesh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource f=
or pictures of the proper mesh pattern for the&nbsp;Oerlikon type gears? &n=
bsp;I can not find one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck there.&nbsp;</span=
><br><div>Thanks.&nbsp;</div><br><div>Greg<br><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSigna=
ture">Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Sep 12, 2018, at 12:22 PM, fubog=
1 via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">fot@a=
utox.team.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div><span color=3D"b=
lack" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" data-mce-style=3D"co=
lor: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;" s=
tyle=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:=
 small;">
<div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: black;"=
 data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: bl=
ack;">

<div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: black;"=
 data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: bl=
ack;">

</span></div>

</span></div>

<div> <br>

</div>

<div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: black;"=
 data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: bl=
ack;">-----Original Message-----<br>

From: Bob Kramer via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

To: Michael Porter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank=
">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

Cc: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" t=
arget=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

<br>

<div>

</div>

</div>

<br>

<blockquote class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; bord=
er-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;" data-mce-style=3D"margin: 0 0 =
0 .8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
 =20
   =20
 =20
 =20

<div>
   =20

    </div>

    <blockquote>
     =20
     =20

     =20

<div>
         =20

          </div>

        </div>

      </div>

    </blockquote>
    <br>

    <br>

    <br>

    <br>

    Cheers.&nbsp; <br>

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

</blockquote></div>

<br>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<br>

<br>

<br>

<br>

</div>

</span>
</div>

</div>

</span>
</div>

</div>
</span></div></blockquote><blockquote><div><span>__________________________=
_____________________</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=
 target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>=
<a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.fot-raci=
ng.com</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.t=
eam.net/donate.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><=
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et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a></span><br><span>Unsubsc=
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---

From: barry rosenberg via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 12:00:14 +0000 (UTC)

------=_Part_6085148_1151660902.1537185615515
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>From the pictures, I see melted teeth, not broken. It also looks like the f=
ront pinion bearing may have spun on the shaft. The ring gear is not nearly=
 as worn as the pinion. I have seen this melting teeth trick and pattern on=
ly once before and it was caused by loss of fluid. I used to keep the melte=
d pinion but have lost it over the past two moves.
Barry

      From: Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]>
 To: Fot <[email-masked]>=20
 Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 8:53 PM
 Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in
  =20
I meant to say, looking at the gear mesh, I thought I was close. In fact I =
started closer to 0.731 pinion depth and reduced it until I got a better me=
sh pattern.=C2=A0

Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 16, 2018, at 1:47 PM, Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote:

Here are my setup notes and a few photos from the failed unit.=C2=A0
Backlash averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D measured at 4 locations 90 degrees apart =
each. Largest being 0.006 smallest 0.005.=C2=A0
Depth from bottom of saddle to top of pinion head 0.726=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0
Pictures of gear mesh with this setup.=C2=A0
Picture of failed pinion gear.=C2=A0

And companion ring gear.=C2=A0

I made a hell of a mess.
It looks like I set the pinion too deep into the case by the write ups I=E2=
=80=99ve reviewed. But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was pretty=
 close.=C2=A0
What do y=E2=80=99all think?
Thanks.=C2=A0
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael Porter <[email-masked]> wrote:

=20
On 9/13/2018 4:52 AM, Greg Blake wrote:
 =20
=20
 Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets are=C2=A0O=
erlikon as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different me=
sh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of the proper mes=
h pattern for the=C2=A0Oerlikon type gears? =C2=A0I can not find one. I con=
tacted Bastuck with no luck there.=C2=A0=20
  This might help:
=20
https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-selection-for-op=
timal-performance/
=20
 Note that in the section on hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think the firs=
t photo has the toe and heel conditions reversed in the description, and it=
 looks to me as if they're using the same set of photos for both types of g=
ear (the hobbed gear has uniform tooth height and the top of the tooth chan=
ges thickness from heel to toe, while the milled gear has non-uniform tooth=
 height and uniform tooth thickness at the top, but to me, the dimensions o=
f the teeth look the same in both sets of photos).=C2=A0 There's also gener=
al recommendations on break-in.
=20
 This is the closest I've come to finding a comparison of the meshing of th=
e two types, even if it has errors, and some shortcuts in the descriptions.=
=C2=A0 This, though, is simpler, and might be helpful:
=20
 http://canadawideparts.com/downloads/dana_tooth_pattern.pdf
=20
 Truthfully, I don't see much difference in the two sets of examples.=C2=A0=
 With regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the two types is where op=
timum tooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum backlash.=C2=A0 One thi=
ng that these guides don't say is that hypoid gears, whether with standard =
helical pinions or worm-gear pinions, don't tolerate lack of backlash.=C2=
=A0 I once worked in the shipping department of Boston Digital in Massachus=
etts as a lowly temp back in the mid-`80s, and my boss was grumbling about =
how the company was in trouble and it was going to affect his profit-sharin=
g.=C2=A0 So, what happened?=C2=A0 "Big troubles with the fifth-axis on the =
5-axis milling machines."=C2=A0 And?=C2=A0 "They use a hypoid worm and ring=
 gear to operate it and it's failing early."=C2=A0 And?=C2=A0 "The engineer=
s don't understand why."=C2=A0 It turned out that they'd set up the ring ge=
ar set to zero backlash to eliminate the slop in the gear set because the e=
ncoders they were using couldn't compensate, and, of course, the gears wore=
 out prematurely, and because none of them had an automotive background, th=
ey didn't understand that they'd created the failure themselves through bad=
 design.=C2=A0 And, they were Indian, like the rest of management, and the =
culture in India is that the upper classes are never wrong, so they simply =
couldn't acknowledge that they'd  created the problem.=C2=A0 The answer was=
 to use absolute measurement such as flexible glass rules (which require no=
 correction) and add backlash, but I don't know that they ever did that.
=20
=20
 Cheers.
 --=20

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

....=20

cloud.com

south.net

  =20
------=_Part_6085139_1847140630.1537185614231
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; f=
ont-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font=
-size:13px"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9296"><span id=3D"yu=
i_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9297">From the pictures, I see melted teeth, =
not broken. It also looks like the front pinion bearing may have spun on th=
e shaft. The ring gear is not nearly as worn as the pinion. I have seen thi=
s melting teeth trick and pattern only once before and it was caused by los=
s of fluid. I used to keep the melted pinion but have lost it over the past=
 two moves.</span></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9295"><s=
pan><br></span></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9293"><span=
 id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9566">Barry</span></div><div class=
=3D"qtdSeparateBR" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9294"><br><br></di=
v><div class=3D"yahoo_quoted" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9056" s=
tyle=3D"display: block;">  <div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helve=
tica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_=
ym19_1_1537185131142_9055"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helve=
tica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" i=
d=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9054"> <div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16=
_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9059"> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" id=3D"yui_3_=
16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9568"> <hr size=3D"1" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_153=
7185131142_9567"> <b id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9570"><span styl=
e=3D"font-weight:bold;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9569">From:</=
span></b> Greg Blake via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br> <b id=3D"yui_3_=
16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9572"><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;" id=3D"yu=
i_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9571">To:</span></b> Fot &lt;[email-masked]=
et&gt; <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, =
September 16, 2018 8:53 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subjec=
t:</span></b> Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in<br> </font> </d=
iv> <div class=3D"y_msg_container" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_90=
53"><br><div id=3D"yiv2668201893"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_153718513114=
2_9052">I meant to say, looking at the gear mesh, I thought I was close. In=
 fact I started closer to 0.731 pinion depth and reduced it until I got a b=
etter mesh pattern.&nbsp;<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><div id=3D"y=
iv2668201893AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div><div id=3D"yui_3_1=
6_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9051"><div class=3D"yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=
=3D"yiv2668201893yqtfd71036"><br clear=3D"none">On Sep 16, 2018, at 1:47 PM=
, Greg Blake via Fot &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mail=
to:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=
>[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></d=
iv></div><div class=3D"yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=3D"yiv2668201893yqtfd=
55773"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div></div></blockquote></div></div><div c=
lass=3D"yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=3D"yiv2668201893yqtfd31312"><div id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9058">Here are my setup notes and a few=
 photos from the failed unit.&nbsp;<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9057"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Backlash averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D me=
asured at 4 locations 90 degrees apart each. Largest being 0.006 smallest 0=
.005.&nbsp;</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Depth from bottom of sa=
ddle to top of pinion head 0.726=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;</div><div><br clear=3D"non=
e"></div><div>Pictures of gear mesh with this setup.&nbsp;</div><div><img i=
d=3D"yiv26682018933E2CACC5-8E00-4B5B-B051-F646A283219F" src=3D"cid:OEBGPOZi=
OCbjWNDH2oGu" yahoo_partid=3D"1.2.2" alt=3D"image1.jpeg" data-id=3D"723c5af=
4-6bc8-0fe1-4e4d-98a27c43dfdc"><img id=3D"yiv2668201893F27986DE-2A18-442A-A=
F1D-D486D9F1612D" src=3D"cid:Zsoo07QvzAkYAmo8lcAI" yahoo_partid=3D"1.2.3" a=
lt=3D"image2.jpeg" data-id=3D"ca22fb8d-8db9-0058-7564-46c11711975c"></div><=
div><br clear=3D"none">Picture of failed pinion gear.&nbsp;</div><div><br c=
lear=3D"none"></div><div><img id=3D"yiv2668201893E27D42DC-9E94-4DEC-93B8-EF=
080ECC0F87" src=3D"cid:a2lpBBum1fcADGbcVMGW" yahoo_partid=3D"1.2.4" alt=3D"=
image3.jpeg" data-id=3D"dc3b60a1-7982-68f8-e29d-73cbad843cee"><br clear=3D"=
none"><div id=3D"yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">And companion ring gear.&=
nbsp;</div><div id=3D"yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><img id=3D"yiv266820=
1893DE51EC74-B569-4EEC-AC1C-66DB1D425D36" src=3D"cid:w8izEelW8cseQymUeThC" =
yahoo_partid=3D"1.2.5" alt=3D"image4.jpeg" data-id=3D"da7bd03e-5344-0347-5d=
f1-2688ad744e7d"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yiv2668201893AppleMail=
Signature"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yiv2668201893AppleMailSignat=
ure">I made a hell of a mess.</div><div id=3D"yiv2668201893AppleMailSignatu=
re"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">It=
 looks like I set the pinion too deep into the case by the write ups I=E2=
=80=99ve reviewed. But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was pretty=
 close.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><br clear=3D=
"none"></div><div id=3D"yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">What do y=E2=80=99=
all think?</div><div id=3D"yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><br clear=3D"no=
ne"></div><div id=3D"yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">Thanks.&nbsp;</div><d=
iv id=3D"yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div id=
=3D"yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br clea=
r=3D"none">On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael Porter &lt;<a rel=3D"nofoll=
ow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" hr=
ef=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"=
none"><br clear=3D"none"></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
 =20
    </div></blockquote></div></div><div><div class=3D"yiv2668201893moz-cite=
-prefix">On 9/13/2018 4:52 AM, Greg Blake wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      </blockquote></div></div><div><div class=3D"yiv2668201893yqt013022659=
7" id=3D"yiv2668201893yqtfd44288">
      Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets
      are&nbsp;<span style=3D"">Oerlikon
        as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different
        mesh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of
        the proper mesh pattern for the&nbsp;Oerlikon type gears? &nbsp;I c=
an not
        find one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck there.&nbsp;</span>
      <div><br clear=3D"none">
      </div>
   =20
    This might help:<br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" class=3D"yiv2668201893moz-txt-link-freet=
ext" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/ring-a=
nd-pinion-gear-selection-for-optimal-performance/">https://www.cartechbooks=
.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-selection-for-optimal-performance/</a><b=
r clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    Note that in the section on hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think
    the first photo has the toe and heel conditions reversed in the
    description, and it looks to me as if they're using the same set of
    photos for both types of gear (the hobbed gear has uniform tooth
    height and the top of the tooth changes thickness from heel to toe,
    while the milled gear has non-uniform tooth height and uniform tooth
    thickness at the top, but to me, the dimensions of the teeth look
    the same in both sets of photos).&nbsp; There's also general
    recommendations on break-in.<br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    This is the closest I've come to finding a comparison of the meshing
    of the two types, even if it has errors, and some shortcuts in the
    descriptions.&nbsp; This, though, is simpler, and might be helpful:<br =
clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" class=3D"yiv2668201893moz-txt-link-f=
reetext" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://canadawideparts.com/downloads/dan=
a_tooth_pattern.pdf">http://canadawideparts.com/downloads/dana_tooth_patter=
n.pdf</a><br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    Truthfully, I don't see much difference in the two sets of
    examples.&nbsp; With regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the tw=
o
    types is where optimum tooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum
    backlash.&nbsp; One thing that these guides don't say is that hypoid
    gears, whether with standard helical pinions or worm-gear pinions,
    don't tolerate lack of backlash.&nbsp; I once worked in the shipping
    department of Boston Digital in Massachusetts as a lowly temp back
    in the mid-`80s, and my boss was grumbling about how the company was
    in trouble and it was going to affect his profit-sharing.&nbsp; So, wha=
t
    happened?&nbsp; "Big troubles with the fifth-axis on the 5-axis milling
    machines."&nbsp; And?&nbsp; "They use a hypoid worm and ring gear to op=
erate
    it and it's failing early."&nbsp; And?&nbsp; "The engineers don't under=
stand
    why."&nbsp; It turned out that they'd set up the ring gear set to zero
    backlash to eliminate the slop in the gear set because the encoders
    they were using couldn't compensate, and, of course, the gears wore
    out prematurely, and because none of them had an automotive
    background, they didn't understand that they'd created the failure
    themselves through bad design.&nbsp; And, they were Indian, like the re=
st
    of management, and the culture in India is that the upper classes
    are never wrong, so they simply couldn't acknowledge that they'd
    created the problem.&nbsp; The answer was to use absolute measurement
    such as flexible glass rules (which require no correction) and add
    backlash, but I don't know that they ever did that.<br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    Cheers.<br clear=3D"none">
    <pre class=3D"yiv2668201893moz-signature">--=20

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"yiv2668201893yqt01302265=
97" id=3D"yiv2668201893yqtfd48023"><span>__________________________________=
_____________</span><br clear=3D"none"><span><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"r=
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a></span><br clear=3D"none"><span></span><br clear=3D"none"><span>Donate: <=
a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.team=
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ne"><span>Archive: <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" hre=
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clear=3D"none"><span></span><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></blockquote></d=
iv></div><div class=3D"yqt0130226597" id=3D"yqtfd21857">___________________=
____________________________<br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D=
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am.net</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"h=
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