Subject: [Fot] Crown and pinion gear break in

From: kaskastner at gmail.com (Kas Kastner)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 20:57:35 -0700

I guarantee you if you do not break in a new ring and pinion it will fail.
At Sebring in 1966 I had four cars, all TR-4 cars IRS.  Due to a problem
with the limited slip devices the gears overheated, actually just the oil,
the gears were okay.  BUT, could not start a race I knew we would never
finish.  So,  I sent back to Calif and had them send me three new diffs
with the proper ratios.  Installed started right off with hard practice no
break in.  No time for that.. By the 9th hour one diff had failed
completely (spare installed car finished), one was making a racket but I
thought would make it, the third limped around on the last lap at 15-20 mph
to finish and the gears were totally wiped out. When taking the diffs apart
in the shop the gears could offer a very close shave or even cut your
throat.

Meantime in 1963 I ran three cars same type diffs same ratios but they had
a 150 mile breakin in on Calif roads, then they were driven to the track
from Miami. Never a whimper from them, all perfect, all cars finished and
did the class,  went went on to other racing after that.

*Never be beaten by equipment.*

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 9:00 AM, Bill Dentinger via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Amici...
>
> God knows I lack the horsepower to horn in on issues, and I know the parts
> were described as new, but to me the picture makes me wonder if that was a
> 'matched pair' to begin with.
>
> Bill Dentinger
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Styduhar via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
> To: Greg Blake <gblake58tr3 at icloud.com>
> Cc: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph <fot at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Thu, Sep 6, 2018 8:07 am
> Subject: Re: [Fot] Crown and pinion gear break in
>
> Proper R/P breakin includes heat cycling the gears and allowing them to
> cool.  Failure to heat cycle may lead to catastrophic failure.  I would
> also jack up the rear end between sessions to see if the backlash is being
> maintained.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 12:53 AM Greg Blake via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
> I would love to here the FOT experience in breaking in new differential
> gears. What has worked well for you in the past?
>
> Last weekend, I was running the TR3 at Hallett with a brand new 4.55 gear
> set and it failed. I probably got 30 laps total in 4 sessions on track. I
> did not think to follow any set break in procedure with the gears and I am
> wondering if that is why they failed.
>
> I am interested in the lists experience with brand new or new old stock
> ring and pinion break in.
>
> Here is a pic of the failed set.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/
> options/fot/johnstydo at gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/
> options/fot/billdentin at aol.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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> options/fot/kaskastner at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
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From: fubog1 via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 09:51:08 -0400

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 That's definitely not a "normal" failure; the ring gear doesn't look too b=
ad, all considered, compared to the pinion damage.
That pattern doesn't look that bad either, with .005 minimum backlash, I do=
n't think it had anything to do with the failure.
The only other possible variable would be related to (lack of) pinion prelo=
ad, but if that was the case I would expect to see more ring damage.

I agree with Barry, the teeth do look like they are almost melted, I wonder=
 if it could be a hardness issue?
Glen

=20

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: barry rosenberg via Fot <[email-masked]>
To: Greg Blake <[email-masked]>; Fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Mon, Sep 17, 2018 8:45 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in

>From the pictures, I see melted teeth, not broken. It also looks like the f=
ront pinion bearing may have spun on the shaft. The ring gear is not nearly=
 as worn as the pinion. I have seen this melting teeth trick and pattern on=
ly once before and it was caused by loss of fluid. I used to keep the melte=
d pinion but have lost it over the past two moves.

Barry

 =20
=20
=20
 =20
 From: Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]>
 To: Fot <[email-masked]>=20
 Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 8:53 PM
 Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in
 =20
=20

I meant to say, looking at the gear mesh, I thought I was close. In fact I =
started closer to 0.731 pinion depth and reduced it until I got a better me=
sh pattern.=20

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 16, 2018, at 1:47 PM, Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote:

Here are my setup notes and a few photos from the failed unit.=20

Backlash averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D measured at 4 locations 90 degrees apart =
each. Largest being 0.006 smallest 0.005.=20

Depth from bottom of saddle to top of pinion head 0.726=E2=80=9D.=20

Pictures of gear mesh with this setup.=20

Picture of failed pinion gear.=20

And companion ring gear.=20

I made a hell of a mess.

It looks like I set the pinion too deep into the case by the write ups I=E2=
=80=99ve reviewed. But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was pretty=
 close.=20

What do y=E2=80=99all think?

Thanks.=20

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael Porter <[email-masked]> wrote:

     =20

On 9/13/2018 4:52 AM, Greg Blake wrote:
   =20
   =20
     =20

      Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets      =
are Oerlikon        as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a =
different        mesh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for picture=
s of        the proper mesh pattern for the Oerlikon type gears?  I can not=
        find one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck there.      =20

     =20
        This might help:
   =20
https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-selection-for-op=
timal-performance/
   =20
    Note that in the section on hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think    th=
e first photo has the toe and heel conditions reversed in the    descriptio=
n, and it looks to me as if they're using the same set of    photos for bot=
h types of gear (the hobbed gear has uniform tooth    height and the top of=
 the tooth changes thickness from heel to toe,    while the milled gear has=
 non-uniform tooth height and uniform tooth    thickness at the top, but to=
 me, the dimensions of the teeth look    the same in both sets of photos). =
 There's also general    recommendations on break-in.
   =20
    This is the closest I've come to finding a comparison of the meshing   =
 of the two types, even if it has errors, and some shortcuts in the    desc=
riptions.  This, though, is simpler, and might be helpful:
   =20
    http://canadawideparts.com/downloads/dana_tooth_pattern.pdf
   =20
    Truthfully, I don't see much difference in the two sets of    examples.=
  With regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the two    types is wher=
e optimum tooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum    backlash.  One t=
hing that these guides don't say is that hypoid    gears, whether with stan=
dard helical pinions or worm-gear pinions,    don't tolerate lack of backla=
sh.  I once worked in the shipping    department of Boston Digital in Massa=
chusetts as a lowly temp back    in the mid-`80s, and my boss was grumbling=
 about how the company was    in trouble and it was going to affect his pro=
fit-sharing.  So, what    happened?  "Big troubles with the fifth-axis on t=
he 5-axis milling    machines."  And?  "They use a hypoid worm and ring gea=
r to operate    it and it's failing early."  And?  "The engineers don't und=
erstand    why."  It turned out that they'd set up the ring gear set to zer=
o    backlash to eliminate the slop in the gear set because the encoders   =
 they were using couldn't compensate, and, of course, the gears wore    out=
 prematurely, and because none of them had an automotive    background, the=
y didn't understand that they'd created the failure    themselves through b=
ad design.  And, they were Indian, like the rest    of management, and the =
culture in India is that the upper classes    are never wrong, so they simp=
ly couldn't acknowledge that they'd    created the problem.  The answer was=
 to use absolute measurement    such as flexible glass rules (which require=
 no correction) and add    backlash, but I don't know that they ever did th=
at.
   =20
   =20
    Cheers.
   =20
--=20

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance=
....
 =20

[email-masked]

http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

[email-masked]

south.net

=20
=20
 =20

[email-masked]

m

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<font color=3D'black' size=3D'2' face=3D'Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif'>
<div> <font size=3D"2">That's definitely not a "normal" failure; the ring g=
ear doesn't look too bad, all considered, compared to the pinion damage.</f=
ont></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">That pattern doesn't look that bad either, with .005 =
minimum backlash, I don't think it had anything to do with the failure.</fo=
nt></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">The only other possible variable would be related to =
(lack of) pinion preload, but if that was the case I would expect to see mo=
re ring damage.<br>
</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2"><font size=3D"2">I agree with Barry, the teeth do loo=
k like they are almost melted, I wonder if it could be a hardness issue?</f=
ont></font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">Glen<br>
</font></div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----=
Original Message-----<br>
From: barry rosenberg via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: Greg Blake &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; Fot &lt;[email-masked]&g=
t;<br>
Sent: Mon, Sep 17, 2018 8:45 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1.2_3bcac95c-d56a-4a5a-8636-1ce3f66dc3c2">

<div class=3D"aolReplacedBody">
<div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:Helvetica Neue=
, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<div id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9296"><span id=3D"aolmai=
l_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9297">From the pictures, I see melted tee=
th, not broken. It also looks like the front pinion bearing may have spun o=
n the shaft. The ring gear is not nearly as worn as the pinion. I have seen=
 this melting teeth trick and pattern only once before and it was caused by=
 loss of fluid. I used to keep the melted pinion but have lost it over the =
past two moves.</span></div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9295"><span><br>
</span></div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9293"><span id=3D"aolmai=
l_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9566">Barry</span></div>

<div class=3D"aolmail_qtdSeparateBR" id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_153718=
5131142_9294"><br>
<br>
</div>

<div class=3D"aolmail_yahoo_quoted" id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185=
131142_9056" style=3D"display: block;"> =20
<div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande,=
 sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_153718513114=
2_9055">=20
<div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,=
 Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19=
_1_1537185131142_9054">=20
<div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9059"> <font=
 id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9568" size=3D"2" face=3D"Ari=
al"> <hr id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9567" size=3D"1"> <b=
 id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9570"><span style=3D"font-we=
ight:bold;" id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9569">From:</span=
></b> Greg Blake via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">fot@auto=
x.team.net</a>&gt;<br>
 <b id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9572"><span style=3D"font=
-weight: bold;" id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9571">To:</sp=
an></b> Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a=
>&gt; <br>
 <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, September 1=
6, 2018 8:53 PM<br>
 <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fot] Fwd: C=
rown and pinion gear break in<br>
 </font> </div>
=20
<div class=3D"aolmail_y_msg_container" id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537=
185131142_9053"><br>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893">
<div id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9052">I meant to say, lo=
oking at the gear mesh, I thought I was close. In fact I started closer to =
0.731 pinion depth and reduced it until I got a better mesh pattern.&nbsp;<=
br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">
<div id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</di=
v>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9051">
<div class=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=3D"aolmail_yiv26682018=
93yqtfd71036"><br clear=3D"none">On Sep 16, 2018, at 1:47 PM, Greg Blake vi=
a Fot &lt;<a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" h=
ref=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clea=
r=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
</div>

<div class=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=3D"aolmail_yiv26682018=
93yqtfd55773"><blockquote>
<div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</div>

<div class=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=3D"aolmail_yiv26682018=
93yqtfd31312">
<div id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9058">Here are my setup =
notes and a few photos from the failed unit.&nbsp;
<div id=3D"aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9057"><br clear=3D"none"=
></div>

<div>Backlash averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D measured at 4 locations 90 degrees a=
part each. Largest being 0.006 smallest 0.005.&nbsp;</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>Depth from bottom of saddle to top of pinion head 0.726=E2=80=9D.&nbsp=
;</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>Pictures of gear mesh with this setup.&nbsp;</div>

<div><img id=3D"aolmail_yiv26682018933E2CACC5-8E00-4B5B-B051-F646A283219F" =
alt=3D"image1.jpeg" src=3D"cid:OEBGPOZiOCbjWNDH2oGu"><img id=3D"aolmail_yiv=
2668201893F27986DE-2A18-442A-AF1D-D486D9F1612D" alt=3D"image2.jpeg" src=3D"=
cid:Zsoo07QvzAkYAmo8lcAI"></div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">Picture of failed pinion gear.&nbsp;</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div><img id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893E27D42DC-9E94-4DEC-93B8-EF080ECC0F87" =
alt=3D"image3.jpeg" src=3D"cid:a2lpBBum1fcADGbcVMGW"><br clear=3D"none">
<div id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">And companion ring gear=
.&nbsp;</div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><img id=3D"aolmail_yiv2=
668201893DE51EC74-B569-4EEC-AC1C-66DB1D425D36" alt=3D"image4.jpeg" src=3D"c=
id:w8izEelW8cseQymUeThC"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><br clear=3D"none"></di=
v>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">I made a hell of a mess=
.</div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><br clear=3D"none"></di=
v>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">It looks like I set the=
 pinion too deep into the case by the write ups I=E2=80=99ve reviewed. But =
looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was pretty close.&nbsp;</div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><br clear=3D"none"></di=
v>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">What do y=E2=80=99all t=
hink?</div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><br clear=3D"none"></di=
v>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">Thanks.&nbsp;</div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><br clear=3D"none"></di=
v>

<div id=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</di=
v>

<div><br clear=3D"none">On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael Porter &lt;<a =
rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto=
:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br cl=
ear=3D"none"></div>
<blockquote>
<div>
 =20
    </div>
</blockquote></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893moz-cite-prefix">On 9/13/2018 4:52 AM, G=
reg Blake wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
    </div>

    <blockquote>
      </blockquote></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=3D"aolmail_yiv26682018=
93yqtfd44288">
      Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets
      are&nbsp;<span>Oerlikon
        as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different
        mesh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of
        the proper mesh pattern for the&nbsp;Oerlikon type gears? &nbsp;I c=
an not
        find one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck there.&nbsp;</span>
     =20
<div><br clear=3D"none">
      </div>

   =20
    This might help:<br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" class=3D"aolmail_yiv266820189=
3moz-txt-link-freetext" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.cartechbooks.=
com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-selection-for-optimal-performance/">https=
://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-selection-for-optimal=
-performance/</a><br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    Note that in the section on hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think
    the first photo has the toe and heel conditions reversed in the
    description, and it looks to me as if they're using the same set of
    photos for both types of gear (the hobbed gear has uniform tooth
    height and the top of the tooth changes thickness from heel to toe,
    while the milled gear has non-uniform tooth height and uniform tooth
    thickness at the top, but to me, the dimensions of the teeth look
    the same in both sets of photos).&nbsp; There's also general
    recommendations on break-in.<br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    This is the closest I've come to finding a comparison of the meshing
    of the two types, even if it has errors, and some shortcuts in the
    descriptions.&nbsp; This, though, is simpler, and might be helpful:<br =
clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    <a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" class=3D"aolmail_yiv26682=
01893moz-txt-link-freetext" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://canadawidepart=
s.com/downloads/dana_tooth_pattern.pdf">http://canadawideparts.com/download=
s/dana_tooth_pattern.pdf</a><br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    Truthfully, I don't see much difference in the two sets of
    examples.&nbsp; With regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the tw=
o
    types is where optimum tooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum
    backlash.&nbsp; One thing that these guides don't say is that hypoid
    gears, whether with standard helical pinions or worm-gear pinions,
    don't tolerate lack of backlash.&nbsp; I once worked in the shipping
    department of Boston Digital in Massachusetts as a lowly temp back
    in the mid-`80s, and my boss was grumbling about how the company was
    in trouble and it was going to affect his profit-sharing.&nbsp; So, wha=
t
    happened?&nbsp; "Big troubles with the fifth-axis on the 5-axis milling
    machines."&nbsp; And?&nbsp; "They use a hypoid worm and ring gear to op=
erate
    it and it's failing early."&nbsp; And?&nbsp; "The engineers don't under=
stand
    why."&nbsp; It turned out that they'd set up the ring gear set to zero
    backlash to eliminate the slop in the gear set because the encoders
    they were using couldn't compensate, and, of course, the gears wore
    out prematurely, and because none of them had an automotive
    background, they didn't understand that they'd created the failure
    themselves through bad design.&nbsp; And, they were Indian, like the re=
st
    of management, and the culture in India is that the upper classes
    are never wrong, so they simply couldn't acknowledge that they'd
    created the problem.&nbsp; The answer was to use absolute measurement
    such as flexible glass rules (which require no correction) and add
    backlash, but I don't know that they ever did that.<br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    Cheers.<br clear=3D"none">
    <pre class=3D"aolmail_yiv2668201893moz-signature">--=20

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance=
....</pre>
 =20

</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
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<div class=3D"aolmail_yqt0130226597" id=3D"aolmail_yqtfd21857">____________=
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[email-masked]

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---

From: fubog1 via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 12:04:40 -0400

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 Your numbers are spot-on.
What mostly concerns me is that it would appear that the pattern is still v=
isible on the ring gear teeth, and the surface doesn't appear to be broken =
up.
Also some of the edges of the remains of the pinion teeth are just rolled-o=
ver vs chipping.
Sadly there likely isn't any way to check the hardness cuz all of the teeth=
 are gone but you could check what's left; the entire gear is hardened to s=
ome degree, at least make sure it isn't dead soft.
As far as lube-related failure, I'm not bright enough to advise, I use MTL =
in many gearboxes but use hypoid gearoil in the rears.
Glen

=20

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Blake <[email-masked]>
To: Bob Kramer <[email-masked]>
Cc: fubog1 <[email-masked]>; barry rosenberg <[email-masked]>; Fot =
<[email-masked]>
Sent: Mon, Sep 17, 2018 11:46 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in

The preload was spot on verified on the bench as 12inlbs of breakover torqu=
e. I did not verify after my first session that it was still good, I=E2=80=
=99ll likely do that going forward. Upon tear down, the breakover torque wa=
s thru the roof but that is due to metal paste in the rollers. Also, there =
was no fore-aft movement in the pinion on tear down.=20

I=E2=80=99ll note that after I suspected something was going wrong (second =
session), I noticed I had lost a little fluid out of the vent. I topped it =
off and it required less than one stroke on my little hand pump, maybe a fe=
w onces of fluid.=20

Another note, I was using redline MTL at the time of failure which I always=
 have. After some reading, this is probably not the best for a diff. I  Wil=
l be switching to their shock proof oil going forward.=20

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 17, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Bob Kramer <[email-masked]> wrote:

I wrote a note to Greg about my thoughts that, looking at the odd pinion we=
ar, I was expecting a tail bearing failure causing the pinion to move in an=
d out on acceleration to be the root cause. In order words, loss of preload=
!

Bob Kramer

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 8:51 AM, fubog1 via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote:

=20

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: barry rosenberg via Fot <[email-masked]>
To: Greg Blake <[email-masked]>; Fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Mon, Sep 17, 2018 8:45 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in

Barry

 =20
=20
=20
 =20

Sent from my iPhone

I made a hell of a mess.

Thanks.=20

Sent from my iPhone

     =20

     =20
        This might help:
   =20

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

=20
=20
 =20

il.com

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<font color=3D'black' size=3D'2' face=3D'Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif'>
<div> <font size=3D"2">Your numbers are spot-on.</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">What mostly concerns me is that it would appear that =
the pattern is still visible on the ring gear teeth, and the surface doesn'=
t appear to be broken up.</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">Also some of the edges of the remains of the pinion t=
eeth are just rolled-over vs chipping.</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">Sadly there likely isn't any way to check the hardnes=
s cuz all of the teeth are gone but you could check what's left; the entire=
 gear is hardened to some degree, at least make sure it isn't dead soft.</f=
ont></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">As far as lube-related failure, I'm not bright enough=
 to advise, I use MTL in many gearboxes but use hypoid gearoil in the rears=
.</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">Glen</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----=
Original Message-----<br>
From: Greg Blake &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: Bob Kramer &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Cc: fubog1 &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; barry rosenberg &lt;[email-masked]=
et&gt;; Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Mon, Sep 17, 2018 11:46 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2.1_25dc0a70-7392-4920-a64b-979fb4374cec">

<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"aolReplacedBody">The preload was spot on verifie=
d on the bench as 12inlbs of breakover torque. I did not verify after my fi=
rst session that it was still good, I=E2=80=99ll likely do that going forwa=
rd. Upon tear down, the breakover torque was thru the roof but that is due =
to metal paste in the rollers. Also, there was no fore-aft movement in the =
pinion on tear down.&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>

<div>I=E2=80=99ll note that after I suspected something was going wrong (se=
cond session), I noticed I had lost a little fluid out of the vent. I toppe=
d it off and it required less than one stroke on my little hand pump, maybe=
 a few onces of fluid.&nbsp;</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>Another note, I was using redline MTL at the time of failure which I a=
lways have. After some reading, this is probably not the best for a diff. I=
 &nbsp;Will be switching to their shock proof oil going forward.&nbsp;<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"aolmail_AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div>

<div><br>
On Sep 17, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Bob Kramer &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no=
opener noreferrer" removedlink__2a30e2c7-91f8-42e6-bc87-13805a1f258a__href=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I wrote a note to Greg about my thoughts that, looking at =
the&nbsp;odd pinion wear, I was expecting a tail bearing failure causing&nb=
sp;the pinion to move in and out on acceleration to be the root cause. In o=
rder words, loss of preload!
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_signature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Kramer</div>
</div>
</div>

<br>

<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 8:51 AM, fubog1 =
via Fot <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferr=
er" removedlink__2a30e2c7-91f8-42e6-bc87-13805a1f258a__href=3D"mailto:fot@a=
utox.team.net">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helv=
etica, sans-serif" color=3D"black">

</font></div>

</font></div>

<div> <br>

</div>

<div> <br>

</div>

From: barry rosenberg via Fot &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener nore=
ferrer" removedlink__2a30e2c7-91f8-42e6-bc87-13805a1f258a__href=3D"mailto:f=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

To: Greg Blake &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" removed=
link__2a30e2c7-91f8-42e6-bc87-13805a1f258a__href=3D"mailto:gblake58tr3@iclo=
ud.com">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; Fot &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" rel=3D=
"noopener noreferrer" removedlink__2a30e2c7-91f8-42e6-bc87-13805a1f258a__hr=
ef=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

<br>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233AOLMsgPart_1.2_3bcac95c-d56a-4a5a-=
8636-1ce3f66dc3c2">

<div class=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolReplacedBody">

<div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Helvetica Neue,H=
elvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:13px">

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851=
31142_9296"><span id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym=
19_1_1537185131142_9297">From the pictures, I see melted teeth, not broken.=
 It also looks like the front pinion bearing may have spun on the shaft. Th=
e ring gear is not nearly as worn as the pinion. I have seen this melting t=
eeth trick and pattern only once before and it was caused by loss of fluid.=
 I used to keep the melted pinion but have lost it over the past two moves.=
</span></div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851=
31142_9295"><span><br>

</span></div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851=
31142_9293"><span id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym=
19_1_1537185131142_9566">Barry</span></div>

<div class=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_qtdSeparateBR" id=3D"ao=
lmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9294"><=
br>

<br>

</div>

<div class=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yahoo_quoted" id=3D"aol=
mail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9056" st=
yle=3D"display:block"> =20

<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans=
-serif;font-size:13px" id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16=
_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9055">=20

<div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Luci=
da Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px" id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233ao=
lmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9054">=20

<div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym1=
9_1_1537185131142_9059"> <font id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_=
yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9568" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> <hr id=3D"=
aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9567"=
 size=3D"1"> <b id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19=
_1_1537185131142_9570"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold" id=3D"aolmail_m_-22=
44140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9569">From:</span>=
</b> Greg Blake via Fot &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer=
" removedlink__2a30e2c7-91f8-42e6-bc87-13805a1f258a__href=3D"mailto:fot@aut=
ox.team.net">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

 <b id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_153718513=
1142_9572"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold" id=3D"aolmail_m_-22441408348180=
42233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9571">To:</span></b> Fot &lt;<=
a target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" removedlink__2a30e2c7-91f8-=
42e6-bc87-13805a1f258a__href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]=
et</a>&gt; <br>

 <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, September 16,=
 2018 8:53 PM<br>

 <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fot] Fwd: Cro=
wn and pinion gear break in<br>

 </font> </div>

=20

<div class=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_y_msg_container" id=3D"=
aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9053"=
><br>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893">

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851=
31142_9052">I meant to say, looking at the gear mesh, I thought I was close=
. In fact I started closer to 0.731 pinion depth and reduced it until I got=
 a better mesh pattern.&nbsp;<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSign=
ature">Sent from my iPhone</div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851=
31142_9051">

<div class=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226=
597" id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd71036"><=
br clear=3D"none">On Sep 16, 2018, at 1:47 PM, Greg Blake via Fot &lt;<a re=
l=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" removedlink__2a3=
0e2c7-91f8-42e6-bc87-13805a1f258a__href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">fot@a=
utox.team.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

</div>

<div class=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226=
597" id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd55773"><=
blockquote>

<div></div>

</blockquote></div>

</div>

<div class=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226=
597" id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd31312">

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851=
31142_9058">Here are my setup notes and a few photos from the failed unit.&=
nbsp;

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851=
31142_9057"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div><img id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv26682018933E2CACC5=
-8E00-4B5B-B051-F646A283219F" alt=3D"image1.jpeg" src=3D"cid:OEBGPOZiOCbjWN=
DH2oGu"><img id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893F2798=
6DE-2A18-442A-AF1D-D486D9F1612D" alt=3D"image2.jpeg" src=3D"cid:Zsoo07QvzAk=
YAmo8lcAI"></div>

<div><img id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893E27D42DC=
-9E94-4DEC-93B8-EF080ECC0F87" alt=3D"image3.jpeg" src=3D"cid:a2lpBBum1fcADG=
bcVMGW"><br clear=3D"none">

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSign=
ature">And companion ring gear.&nbsp;</div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSign=
ature"><img id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893DE51EC=
74-B569-4EEC-AC1C-66DB1D425D36" alt=3D"image4.jpeg" src=3D"cid:w8izEelW8cse=
QymUeThC"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSign=
ature"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSign=
ature">I made a hell of a mess.</div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSign=
ature"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSign=
ature">It looks like I set the pinion too deep into the case by the write u=
ps I=E2=80=99ve reviewed. But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was=
 pretty close.&nbsp;</div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSign=
ature"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSign=
ature">What do y=E2=80=99all think?</div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSign=
ature"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSign=
ature">Thanks.&nbsp;</div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSign=
ature"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSign=
ature">Sent from my iPhone</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael Porter &lt;<a =
rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" removedlink__2=
a30e2c7-91f8-42e6-bc87-13805a1f258a__href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">mdpor=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<blockquote>

<div>
 =20
    </div>

</blockquote></div>

</div>

<div>

<div class=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893moz-cite-p=
refix">On 9/13/2018 4:52 AM, Greg Blake wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
    </div>

    <blockquote>
      </blockquote></div>

</div>

<div>

<div class=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226=
597" id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd44288">
      Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets
      are&nbsp;<span>Oerlikon
        as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different
        mesh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of
        the proper mesh pattern for the&nbsp;Oerlikon type gears?&nbsp; I c=
an not
        find one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck there.&nbsp;</span>
     =20

<div><br clear=3D"none">
      </div>

   =20
    This might help:<br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" class=3D"aolmail_m_-224414083=
4818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893moz-txt-link-freetext" target=3D"_blank" rem=
ovedlink__2a30e2c7-91f8-42e6-bc87-13805a1f258a__href=3D"https://www.cartech=
books.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-selection-for-optimal-performance/"=
>https://www.cartechbooks.com/<wbr>techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-<wbr>selec=
tion-for-optimal-<wbr>performance/</a><br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    <a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" class=3D"aolmail_m_-22441=
40834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893moz-txt-link-freetext" target=3D"_blank"=
 removedlink__2a30e2c7-91f8-42e6-bc87-13805a1f258a__href=3D"http://canadawi=
departs.com/downloads/dana_tooth_pattern.pdf">http://canadawideparts.com/<w=
br>downloads/dana_tooth_pattern.<wbr>pdf</a><br clear=3D"none">
    <pre class=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893moz-si=
gnature">--=20

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

</div>

<blockquote>

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---

From: Peter Vucinic via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:22:38 +1000

This is a multipart message in MIME format.

--===============5230366339457829960==
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CD_01D44F39.86A864E0"
Content-Language: en-au

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I agree with Glen

The pinion is the only component destroyed. I would question the =
hardness of the gear. The entire gear/shaft should be case hardened, so =
if you can find someone to check it?

Also, the MTL, this is as per the REDLINE data sheet - MTL, MT 85 and MT =
90 are not for use in differentials with hypoid gears

It will be a FACTOR, but not the whole story given the Crown Wheel is =
still in =E2=80=98good=E2=80=99 condition.

=20

Cheers

=20

"You can Make a Small Fortune From Motor Racing. As long as You Started =
With A Lage Fortune!"

Kind Regards

Peter Vucinic

TR4 - TR7 V8 - Spitfire MkII

=20

 <http://www.fot-racing.com/> http://www.fot-racing.com

=20

Archive:  <http://www.team.net/archive> http://www.team.net/archive

Forums:  <http://www.team.net/forums> http://www.team.net/forums

=20

=20

=20

From: Fot [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of fubog1 via =
Fot
Sent: Tuesday, 18 September 2018 2:05 AM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in

=20

What mostly concerns me is that it would appear that the pattern is =
still visible on the ring gear teeth, and the surface doesn't appear to =
be broken up.

Also some of the edges of the remains of the pinion teeth are just =
rolled-over vs chipping.

Sadly there likely isn't any way to check the hardness cuz all of the =
teeth are gone but you could check what's left; the entire gear is =
hardened to some degree, at least make sure it isn't dead soft.

As far as lube-related failure, I'm not bright enough to advise, I use =
MTL in many gearboxes but use hypoid gearoil in the rears.

Glen

=20

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Blake <[email-masked]>
To: Bob Kramer <[email-masked]>
Cc: fubog1 <[email-masked]>; barry rosenberg <[email-masked]>; =
Fot <[email-masked]>

The preload was spot on verified on the bench as 12inlbs of breakover =
torque. I did not verify after my first session that it was still good, =
I=E2=80=99ll likely do that going forward. Upon tear down, the breakover =
torque was thru the roof but that is due to metal paste in the rollers. =
Also, there was no fore-aft movement in the pinion on tear down. =20

=20

I=E2=80=99ll note that after I suspected something was going wrong =
(second session), I noticed I had lost a little fluid out of the vent. I =
topped it off and it required less than one stroke on my little hand =
pump, maybe a few onces of fluid.=20

=20

Another note, I was using redline MTL at the time of failure which I =
always have. After some reading, this is probably not the best for a =
diff. I  Will be switching to their shock proof oil going forward.=20

Sent from my iPhone

I wrote a note to Greg about my thoughts that, looking at the odd pinion =
wear, I was expecting a tail bearing failure causing the pinion to move =
in and out on acceleration to be the root cause. In order words, loss of =
preload!=20

Bob Kramer

=20

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 8:51 AM, fubog1 via Fot <[email-masked]> =
wrote:

That's definitely not a "normal" failure; the ring gear doesn't look too =
bad, all considered, compared to the pinion damage.

That pattern doesn't look that bad either, with .005 minimum backlash, I =
don't think it had anything to do with the failure.

The only other possible variable would be related to (lack of) pinion =
preload, but if that was the case I would expect to see more ring =
damage.

I agree with Barry, the teeth do look like they are almost melted, I =
wonder if it could be a hardness issue?

Glen

=20

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: barry rosenberg via Fot <[email-masked]>
To: Greg Blake <[email-masked]>; Fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Mon, Sep 17, 2018 8:45 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in

>From the pictures, I see melted teeth, not broken. It also looks like =
the front pinion bearing may have spun on the shaft. The ring gear is =
not nearly as worn as the pinion. I have seen this melting teeth trick =
and pattern only once before and it was caused by loss of fluid. I used =
to keep the melted pinion but have lost it over the past two moves.

=20

Barry

=20

  _____ =20

=20

I meant to say, looking at the gear mesh, I thought I was close. In fact =
I started closer to 0.731 pinion depth and reduced it until I got a =
better mesh pattern.=20

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 16, 2018, at 1:47 PM, Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]> =
wrote:

Here are my setup notes and a few photos from the failed unit. =20

=20

Backlash averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D measured at 4 locations 90 degrees =
apart each. Largest being 0.006 smallest 0.005.=20

=20

=20

image1.jpegimage2.jpeg

=20

image3.jpeg

image4.jpeg

=20

I made a hell of a mess.

=20

It looks like I set the pinion too deep into the case by the write ups =
I=E2=80=99ve reviewed. But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was =
pretty close.=20

=20

=20

Thanks.=20

=20

Sent from my iPhone

Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets are =
Oerlikon as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a =
different mesh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of =
the proper mesh pattern for the Oerlikon type gears?  I can not find =
one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck there. =20

=20

This might help:

https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-selection-for-=
optimal-performance/

Note that in the section on hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think the =
first photo has the toe and heel conditions reversed in the description, =
and it looks to me as if they're using the same set of photos for both =
types of gear (the hobbed gear has uniform tooth height and the top of =
the tooth changes thickness from heel to toe, while the milled gear has =
non-uniform tooth height and uniform tooth thickness at the top, but to =
me, the dimensions of the teeth look the same in both sets of photos).  =
There's also general recommendations on break-in.

This is the closest I've come to finding a comparison of the meshing of =
the two types, even if it has errors, and some shortcuts in the =
descriptions.  This, though, is simpler, and might be helpful:

Truthfully, I don't see much difference in the two sets of examples.  =
With regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the two types is where =
optimum tooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum backlash.  One =
thing that these guides don't say is that hypoid gears, whether with =
standard helical pinions or worm-gear pinions, don't tolerate lack of =
backlash.  I once worked in the shipping department of Boston Digital in =
Massachusetts as a lowly temp back in the mid-`80s, and my boss was =
grumbling about how the company was in trouble and it was going to =
affect his profit-sharing.  So, what happened?  "Big troubles with the =
fifth-axis on the 5-axis milling machines."  And?  "They use a hypoid =
worm and ring gear to operate it and it's failing early."  And?  "The =
engineers don't understand why."  It turned out that they'd set up the =
ring gear set to zero backlash to eliminate the slop in the gear set =
because the encoders they were using couldn't compensate, and, of =
course, the gears wore out prematurely, and because none of them had an =
automotive background, they didn't understand that they'd created the =
failure themselves through bad design.  And, they were Indian, like the =
rest of management, and the culture in India is that the upper classes =
are never wrong, so they simply couldn't acknowledge that they'd created =
the problem.  The answer was to use absolute measurement such as =
flexible glass rules (which require no correction) and add backlash, but =
I don't know that they ever did that.

Cheers.

--=20
=20
=20
Michael Porter
Roswell, NM
=20
=20
Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking =
distance....

http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]=20

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

=20

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-AU link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I agree with Glen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The pinion is the only component destroyed. I would question the =
hardness of the gear. The entire gear/shaft should be case hardened, so =
if you can find someone to check it?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Also, the MTL, this is as per the REDLINE data sheet - </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>MTL, MT 85 =
and MT 90 are not for use in differentials with hypoid gears<span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>It will be a FACTOR, but not the whole story given the Crown Wheel is =
still in =E2=80=98good=E2=80=99 condition.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A=
0'>&quot;You can Make a Small Fortune From Motor Racing. As long as You =
Started With A Lage Fortune!&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Kind Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Peter Vucinic<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>TR4 - TR7 V8 - Spitfire MkII<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>[email-masked]</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'><a =
href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com/"><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>http://www.fot-racing.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>Donate: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html"><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>http://www.team.net/donate.html</span></a><o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>Archive: =
<a href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive"><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>http://www.team.net/archive</span></a><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>Forums: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums"><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>http://www.team.net/forums</span></a><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Fot =
[mailto:[email-masked]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>fubog1 via =
Fot<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 18 September 2018 2:05 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
[email-masked]; [email-masked]<br><b>Cc:</b> =
[email-masked]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion =
gear break in<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Y=
our numbers are spot-on.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>W=
hat mostly concerns me is that it would appear that the pattern is still =
visible on the ring gear teeth, and the surface doesn't appear to be =
broken up.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A=
lso some of the edges of the remains of the pinion teeth are just =
rolled-over vs chipping.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>S=
adly there likely isn't any way to check the hardness cuz all of the =
teeth are gone but you could check what's left; the entire gear is =
hardened to some degree, at least make sure it isn't dead =
soft.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A=
s far as lube-related failure, I'm not bright enough to advise, I use =
MTL in many gearboxes but use hypoid gearoil in the =
rears.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>G=
len<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>-=
----Original Message-----<br>From: Greg Blake =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>To: Bob Kramer =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>Cc: fubog1 &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; barry =
rosenberg &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; Fot =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>Sent: Mon, Sep 17, 2018 11:46 =
am<br>Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break =
in<o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2.1_25dc0a70-7392-4920-a64b-979fb4374cec"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>T=
he preload was spot on verified on the bench as 12inlbs of breakover =
torque. I did not verify after my first session that it was still good, =
I=E2=80=99ll likely do that going forward. Upon tear down, the breakover =
torque was thru the roof but that is due to metal paste in the rollers. =
Also, there was no fore-aft movement in the pinion on tear down.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I=
=E2=80=99ll note that after I suspected something was going wrong =
(second session), I noticed I had lost a little fluid out of the vent. I =
topped it off and it required less than one stroke on my little hand =
pump, maybe a few onces of =
fluid.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A=
nother note, I was using redline MTL at the time of failure which I =
always have. After some reading, this is probably not the best for a =
diff. I &nbsp;Will be switching to their shock proof oil going =
forward.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
id=3D"aolmail_AppleMailSignature"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>S=
ent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
br>On Sep 17, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Bob Kramer &lt;[email-masked]&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I=
 wrote a note to Greg about my thoughts that, looking at the&nbsp;odd =
pinion wear, I was expecting a tail bearing failure causing&nbsp;the =
pinion to move in and out on acceleration to be the root cause. In order =
words, loss of preload! <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
br clear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>B=
ob Kramer<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>O=
n Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 8:51 AM, fubog1 via Fot =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>T=
hat's definitely not a &quot;normal&quot; failure; the ring gear doesn't =
look too bad, all considered, compared to the pinion =
damage.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>T=
hat pattern doesn't look that bad either, with .005 minimum backlash, I =
don't think it had anything to do with the =
failure.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>T=
he only other possible variable would be related to (lack of) pinion =
preload, but if that was the case I would expect to see more ring =
damage.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I=
 agree with Barry, the teeth do look like they are almost melted, I =
wonder if it could be a hardness =
issue?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>G=
len<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>-=
----Original Message-----<br>From: barry rosenberg via Fot =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>To: Greg Blake =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;; Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>Sent: =
Mon, Sep 17, 2018 8:45 am<br>Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion =
gear break in<o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233AOLMsgPart_1.2_3bcac95c-d56a-4a5a-863=
6-1ce3f66dc3c2"><div><div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9296"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:blac=
k'>From the pictures, I see melted teeth, not broken. It also looks like =
the front pinion bearing may have spun on the shaft. The ring gear is =
not nearly as worn as the pinion. I have seen this melting teeth trick =
and pattern only once before and it was caused by loss of fluid. I used =
to keep the melted pinion but have lost it over the past two =
moves.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9295"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:blac=
k'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9293"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:blac=
k'>Barry<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9294"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:blac=
k'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9056"><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9055"><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9054"><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9059"><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-align:center;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></span></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><b =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9570"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>F=
rom:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> =
Greg Blake via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9572">To:</b> Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, =
September 16, 2018 8:53 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and =
pinion gear break in</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9053"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893"><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9052"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>I meant to =
say, looking at the gear mesh, I thought I was close. In fact I started =
closer to 0.731 pinion depth and reduced it until I got a better mesh =
pattern.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignatu=
re"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9051"><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd71036"><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><br>On Sep =
16, 2018, at 1:47 PM, Greg Blake via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd31312"><div=
 =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9058"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Here are my =
setup notes and a few photos from the failed unit.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9057"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Backlash =
averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D measured at 4 locations 90 degrees apart each. =
Largest being 0.006 smallest =
0.005.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Depth from =
bottom of saddle to top of pinion head =
0.726=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Pictures of =
gear mesh with this setup.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><img =
border=3D0 width=3D2016 height=3D1512 =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv26682018933E2CACC5-8E00-4B=
5B-B051-F646A283219F" src=3D"cid:[email-masked]" =
alt=3Dimage1.jpeg><img border=3D0 width=3D2016 height=3D1512 =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893F27986DE-2A18-44=
2A-AF1D-D486D9F1612D" src=3D"cid:[email-masked]" =
alt=3Dimage2.jpeg><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><br>Picture =
of failed pinion gear.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><img =
border=3D0 width=3D2016 height=3D1512 =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893E27D42DC-9E94-4D=
EC-93B8-EF080ECC0F87" src=3D"cid:[email-masked]" =
alt=3Dimage3.jpeg><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignatu=
re"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>And companion =
ring gear.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignatu=
re"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><img =
border=3D0 width=3D2016 height=3D1512 =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893DE51EC74-B569-4E=
EC-AC1C-66DB1D425D36" src=3D"cid:[email-masked]" =
alt=3Dimage4.jpeg><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignatu=
re"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignatu=
re"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>I made a hell =
of a mess.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignatu=
re"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignatu=
re"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>It looks like =
I set the pinion too deep into the case by the write ups I=E2=80=99ve =
reviewed. But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was pretty =
close.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignatu=
re"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignatu=
re"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>What do =
y=E2=80=99all think?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignatu=
re"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignatu=
re"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Thanks.&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignatu=
re"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignatu=
re"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><br>On Sep =
13, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael Porter &lt;[email-masked]&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>On 9/13/2018 =
4:52 AM, Greg Blake =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd44288"><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Speaking of =
pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets are&nbsp;Oerlikon as =
opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different mesh =
pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of the proper =
mesh pattern for the&nbsp;Oerlikon type gears?&nbsp; I can not find one. =
I contacted Bastuck with no luck there.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>This might =
help:<br><br>https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-s=
election-for-optimal-performance/<br><br>Note that in the section on =
hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think the first photo has the toe and =
heel conditions reversed in the description, and it looks to me as if =
they're using the same set of photos for both types of gear (the hobbed =
gear has uniform tooth height and the top of the tooth changes thickness =
from heel to toe, while the milled gear has non-uniform tooth height and =
uniform tooth thickness at the top, but to me, the dimensions of the =
teeth look the same in both sets of photos).&nbsp; There's also general =
recommendations on break-in.<br><br>This is the closest I've come to =
finding a comparison of the meshing of the two types, even if it has =
errors, and some shortcuts in the descriptions.&nbsp; This, though, is =
simpler, and might be =
helpful:<br><br>http://canadawideparts.com/downloads/dana_tooth_pattern.p=
df<br><br>Truthfully, I don't see much difference in the two sets of =
examples.&nbsp; With regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the two =
types is where optimum tooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum =
backlash.&nbsp; One thing that these guides don't say is that hypoid =
gears, whether with standard helical pinions or worm-gear pinions, don't =
tolerate lack of backlash.&nbsp; I once worked in the shipping =
department of Boston Digital in Massachusetts as a lowly temp back in =
the mid-`80s, and my boss was grumbling about how the company was in =
trouble and it was going to affect his profit-sharing.&nbsp; So, what =
happened?&nbsp; &quot;Big troubles with the fifth-axis on the 5-axis =
milling machines.&quot;&nbsp; And?&nbsp; &quot;They use a hypoid worm =
and ring gear to operate it and it's failing early.&quot;&nbsp; =
And?&nbsp; &quot;The engineers don't understand why.&quot;&nbsp; It =
turned out that they'd set up the ring gear set to zero backlash to =
eliminate the slop in the gear set because the encoders they were using =
couldn't compensate, and, of course, the gears wore out prematurely, and =
because none of them had an automotive background, they didn't =
understand that they'd created the failure themselves through bad =
design.&nbsp; And, they were Indian, like the rest of management, and =
the culture in India is that the upper classes are never wrong, so they =
simply couldn't acknowledge that they'd created the problem.&nbsp; The =
answer was to use absolute measurement such as flexible glass rules =
(which require no correction) and add backlash, but I don't know that =
they ever did that.<br><br><br>Cheers.<o:p></o:p></span></p><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Michael Porter<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Roswell, NM<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know =
it's within walking =
distance....<o:p></o:p></span></pre></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd48023"><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>______________=
_________________________________<br>[email-masked]<br><br>http://www=
.fot-racing.com<br><br>Donate: =
http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd72402"><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Unsubscribe/Ma=
nage: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>http://autox.t=
eam.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked] =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd30001"><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><br><br><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div =
id=3D"aolmail_m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yqtfd21857"><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
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_________________________________<br>[email-masked]<br><br>http://www=
.fot-racing.com<br><br>Donate: =
http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot<br>Unsubscribe/Manage: =
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style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>_=
______________________________________________<br>[email-masked]<br><=
br>http://www.fot-racing.com<br><br>Donate: =
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style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt'><span =
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style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span =
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o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></d=
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