Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in

From: Bob Kramer via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 10:29:05 -0500

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I wrote a note to Greg about my thoughts that, looking at the odd pinion
wear, I was expecting a tail bearing failure causing the pinion to move in
and out on acceleration to be the root cause. In order words, loss of
preload!

Bob Kramer

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 8:51 AM, fubog1 via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote:

> That's definitely not a "normal" failure; the ring gear doesn't look too
> bad, all considered, compared to the pinion damage.
> That pattern doesn't look that bad either, with .005 minimum backlash, I
> don't think it had anything to do with the failure.
> The only other possible variable would be related to (lack of) pinion
> preload, but if that was the case I would expect to see more ring damage.
> I agree with Barry, the teeth do look like they are almost melted, I
> wonder if it could be a hardness issue?
> Glen
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: barry rosenberg via Fot <[email-masked]>
> To: Greg Blake <[email-masked]>; Fot <[email-masked]>
> Sent: Mon, Sep 17, 2018 8:45 am
> Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in
>
> From the pictures, I see melted teeth, not broken. It also looks like the
> front pinion bearing may have spun on the shaft. The ring gear is not
> nearly as worn as the pinion. I have seen this melting teeth trick and
> pattern only once before and it was caused by loss of fluid. I used to ke=
ep
> the melted pinion but have lost it over the past two moves.
>
> Barry
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]>
> *To:* Fot <[email-masked]>
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 16, 2018 8:53 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in
>
> I meant to say, looking at the gear mesh, I thought I was close. In fact =
I
> started closer to 0.731 pinion depth and reduced it until I got a better
> mesh pattern.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 16, 2018, at 1:47 PM, Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]>
> wrote:
>
> Here are my setup notes and a few photos from the failed unit.
>
> Backlash averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D measured at 4 locations 90 degrees apar=
t each.
> Largest being 0.006 smallest 0.005.
>
> Depth from bottom of saddle to top of pinion head 0.726=E2=80=9D.
>
> Pictures of gear mesh with this setup.
>
> Picture of failed pinion gear.
>
> And companion ring gear.
>
> I made a hell of a mess.
>
> It looks like I set the pinion too deep into the case by the write ups
> I=E2=80=99ve reviewed. But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was =
pretty
> close.
>
> What do y=E2=80=99all think?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael Porter <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> On 9/13/2018 4:52 AM, Greg Blake wrote:
>
> Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets are Oerli=
kon
> as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different mesh
> pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of the proper mesh
> pattern for the Oerlikon type gears?  I can not find one. I contacted
> Bastuck with no luck there.
>
> This might help:
>
> https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-
> selection-for-optimal-performance/
>
> Note that in the section on hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think the
> first photo has the toe and heel conditions reversed in the description,
> and it looks to me as if they're using the same set of photos for both
> types of gear (the hobbed gear has uniform tooth height and the top of th=
e
> tooth changes thickness from heel to toe, while the milled gear has
> non-uniform tooth height and uniform tooth thickness at the top, but to m=
e,
> the dimensions of the teeth look the same in both sets of photos).  There=
's
> also general recommendations on break-in.
>
> This is the closest I've come to finding a comparison of the meshing of
> the two types, even if it has errors, and some shortcuts in the
> descriptions.  This, though, is simpler, and might be helpful:
>
> http://canadawideparts.com/downloads/dana_tooth_pattern.pdf
>
> Truthfully, I don't see much difference in the two sets of examples.  Wit=
h
> regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the two types is where optimu=
m
> tooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum backlash.  One thing that
> these guides don't say is that hypoid gears, whether with standard helica=
l
> pinions or worm-gear pinions, don't tolerate lack of backlash.  I once
> worked in the shipping department of Boston Digital in Massachusetts as a
> lowly temp back in the mid-`80s, and my boss was grumbling about how the
> company was in trouble and it was going to affect his profit-sharing.  So=
,
> what happened?  "Big troubles with the fifth-axis on the 5-axis milling
> machines."  And?  "They use a hypoid worm and ring gear to operate it and
> it's failing early."  And?  "The engineers don't understand why."  It
> turned out that they'd set up the ring gear set to zero backlash to
> eliminate the slop in the gear set because the encoders they were using
> couldn't compensate, and, of course, the gears wore out prematurely, and
> because none of them had an automotive background, they didn't understand
> that they'd created the failure themselves through bad design.  And, they
> were Indian, like the rest of management, and the culture in India is tha=
t
> the upper classes are never wrong, so they simply couldn't acknowledge th=
at
> they'd created the problem.  The answer was to use absolute measurement
> such as flexible glass rules (which require no correction) and add
> backlash, but I don't know that they ever did that.
>
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
>
>
> Michael Porter
> Roswell, NM
>
>
> Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distan=
ce....
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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> options/fot/[email-masked]
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>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I wrote a note to Greg about my thoughts that, looking at =
the=C2=A0odd pinion wear, I was expecting a tail bearing failure causing=C2=
=A0the pinion to move in and out on acceleration to be the root cause. In o=
rder words, loss of preload!<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">Bob Kramer</div></div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 8:51 AM, fubog1 via =
Fot <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_=
blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><font color=3D"black" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-seri=
f">
<div> <font size=3D"2">That&#39;s definitely not a &quot;normal&quot; failu=
re; the ring gear doesn&#39;t look too bad, all considered, compared to the=
 pinion damage.</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">That pattern doesn&#39;t look that bad either, with .=
005 minimum backlash, I don&#39;t think it had anything to do with the fail=
ure.</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">The only other possible variable would be related to =
(lack of) pinion preload, but if that was the case I would expect to see mo=
re ring damage.<br>
</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2"><font size=3D"2">I agree with Barry, the teeth do loo=
k like they are almost melted, I wonder if it could be a hardness issue?</f=
ont></font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">Glen<br>
</font></div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----=
Original Message-----<br>
From: barry rosenberg via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" tar=
get=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
To: Greg Blake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_bla=
nk">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
m.net" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Mon, Sep 17, 2018 8:45 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233AOLMsgPart_1.2_3bcac95c-d56a-4a5a-8636-1ce=
3f66dc3c2">

<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolReplacedBody">
<div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Helvetica Neue,H=
elvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_92=
96"><span id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9297">From the pictures, I see melted teeth, not broken. It also looks l=
ike the front pinion bearing may have spun on the shaft. The ring gear is n=
ot nearly as worn as the pinion. I have seen this melting teeth trick and p=
attern only once before and it was caused by loss of fluid. I used to keep =
the melted pinion but have lost it over the past two moves.</span></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_92=
95"><span><br>
</span></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_92=
93"><span id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371851311=
42_9566">Barry</span></div>

<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_qtdSeparateBR" id=3D"m_-2244140=
834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9294"><br>
<br>
</div>

<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yahoo_quoted" id=3D"m_-22441408=
34818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9056" style=3D"display:b=
lock"> =20
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans=
-serif;font-size:13px" id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_=
1_1537185131142_9055">=20
<div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Luci=
da Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px" id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yu=
i_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9054">=20
<div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537=
185131142_9059"> <font id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_=
1_1537185131142_9568" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> <hr id=3D"m_-2244140834818=
042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9567" size=3D"1"> <b id=3D"m_=
-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9570"><span sty=
le=3D"font-weight:bold" id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19=
_1_1537185131142_9569">From:</span></b> Greg Blake via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
 <b id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_957=
2"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold" id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui=
_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9571">To:</span></b> Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; <br>
 <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, September 16,=
 2018 8:53 PM<br>
 <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fot] Fwd: Cro=
wn and pinion gear break in<br>
 </font> </div>
=20
<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_y_msg_container" id=3D"m_-22441=
40834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9053"><br>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893">
<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_90=
52">I meant to say, looking at the gear mesh, I thought I was close. In fac=
t I started closer to 0.731 pinion depth and reduced it until I got a bette=
r mesh pattern.=C2=A0<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">
<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">S=
ent from my iPhone</div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_90=
51">
<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=
=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd71036"><br clear=3D"non=
e">On Sep 16, 2018, at 1:47 PM, Greg Blake via Fot &lt;<a rel=3D"noopener n=
oreferrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_bla=
nk">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">=
</div>
</div>

<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=
=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd55773"><blockquote>
<div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</div>

<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=
=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd31312">
<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_90=
58">Here are my setup notes and a few photos from the failed unit.=C2=A0
<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_90=
57"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>Backlash averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D measured at 4 locations 90 degrees a=
part each. Largest being 0.006 smallest 0.005.=C2=A0</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>Depth from bottom of saddle to top of pinion head 0.726=E2=80=9D.=C2=
=A0</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>Pictures of gear mesh with this setup.=C2=A0</div>

<div><img id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv26682018933E2CACC5-8E00-4B=
5B-B051-F646A283219F" alt=3D"image1.jpeg" src=3D"cid:OEBGPOZiOCbjWNDH2oGu">=
<img id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893F27986DE-2A18-442A-AF=
1D-D486D9F1612D" alt=3D"image2.jpeg" src=3D"cid:Zsoo07QvzAkYAmo8lcAI"></div=

<div><br clear=3D"none">Picture of failed pinion gear.=C2=A0</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div><img id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893E27D42DC-9E94-4D=
EC-93B8-EF080ECC0F87" alt=3D"image3.jpeg" src=3D"cid:a2lpBBum1fcADGbcVMGW">=
<br clear=3D"none">
<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">A=
nd companion ring gear.=C2=A0</div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><=
img id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893DE51EC74-B569-4EEC-AC1=
C-66DB1D425D36" alt=3D"image4.jpeg" src=3D"cid:w8izEelW8cseQymUeThC"><br cl=
ear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><=
br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">I=
 made a hell of a mess.</div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><=
br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">I=
t looks like I set the pinion too deep into the case by the write ups I=E2=
=80=99ve reviewed. But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was pretty=
 close.=C2=A0</div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><=
br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">W=
hat do y=E2=80=99all think?</div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><=
br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">T=
hanks.=C2=A0</div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><=
br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">S=
ent from my iPhone</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael Porter &lt;<a =
rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=
 target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br cl=
ear=3D"none"></div>
<blockquote>
<div>
 =20
    </div>
</blockquote></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893moz-cite-prefix">O=
n 9/13/2018 4:52 AM, Greg Blake wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
    </div>

    <blockquote>
      </blockquote></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=
=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd44288">
      Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets
      are=C2=A0<span>Oerlikon
        as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different
        mesh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of
        the proper mesh pattern for the=C2=A0Oerlikon type gears?=C2=A0 I c=
an not
        find one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck there.=C2=A0</span>
     =20
<div><br clear=3D"none">
      </div>

   =20
    This might help:<br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" class=3D"m_-22441408348180422=
33aolmail_yiv2668201893moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.cartechbo=
oks.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-selection-for-optimal-performance/" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.cartechbooks.com/<wbr>techtips/ring-and-pinion=
-gear-<wbr>selection-for-optimal-<wbr>performance/</a><br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    Note that in the section on hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think
    the first photo has the toe and heel conditions reversed in the
    description, and it looks to me as if they&#39;re using the same set of
    photos for both types of gear (the hobbed gear has uniform tooth
    height and the top of the tooth changes thickness from heel to toe,
    while the milled gear has non-uniform tooth height and uniform tooth
    thickness at the top, but to me, the dimensions of the teeth look
    the same in both sets of photos).=C2=A0 There&#39;s also general
    recommendations on break-in.<br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    This is the closest I&#39;ve come to finding a comparison of the meshin=
g
    of the two types, even if it has errors, and some shortcuts in the
    descriptions.=C2=A0 This, though, is simpler, and might be helpful:<br =
clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    <a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" class=3D"m_-2244140834818=
042233aolmail_yiv2668201893moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://canadawide=
parts.com/downloads/dana_tooth_pattern.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://canada=
wideparts.com/<wbr>downloads/dana_tooth_pattern.<wbr>pdf</a><br clear=3D"no=
ne">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    Truthfully, I don&#39;t see much difference in the two sets of
    examples.=C2=A0 With regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the tw=
o
    types is where optimum tooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum
    backlash.=C2=A0 One thing that these guides don&#39;t say is that hypoi=
d
    gears, whether with standard helical pinions or worm-gear pinions,
    don&#39;t tolerate lack of backlash.=C2=A0 I once worked in the shippin=
g
    department of Boston Digital in Massachusetts as a lowly temp back
    in the mid-`80s, and my boss was grumbling about how the company was
    in trouble and it was going to affect his profit-sharing.=C2=A0 So, wha=
t
    happened?=C2=A0 &quot;Big troubles with the fifth-axis on the 5-axis mi=
lling
    machines.&quot;=C2=A0 And?=C2=A0 &quot;They use a hypoid worm and ring =
gear to operate
    it and it&#39;s failing early.&quot;=C2=A0 And?=C2=A0 &quot;The enginee=
rs don&#39;t understand
    why.&quot;=C2=A0 It turned out that they&#39;d set up the ring gear set=
 to zero
    backlash to eliminate the slop in the gear set because the encoders
    they were using couldn&#39;t compensate, and, of course, the gears wore
    out prematurely, and because none of them had an automotive
    background, they didn&#39;t understand that they&#39;d created the fail=
ure
    themselves through bad design.=C2=A0 And, they were Indian, like the re=
st
    of management, and the culture in India is that the upper classes
    are never wrong, so they simply couldn&#39;t acknowledge that they&#39;=
d
    created the problem.=C2=A0 The answer was to use absolute measurement
    such as flexible glass rules (which require no correction) and add
    backlash, but I don&#39;t know that they ever did that.<br clear=3D"non=
e">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    Cheers.<br clear=3D"none">
    <pre class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893moz-signature"=
>--=20

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it&#39;s within walking dist=
ance....</pre>
 =20

</div>
<blockquote>
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<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=
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_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot

--===============2790663973646879115==--

---

From: Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 10:46:06 -0500

--===============2552342045874406736==
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The preload was spot on verified on the bench as 12inlbs of breakover torque=
. I did not verify after my first session that it was still good, I=E2=80=99=
ll likely do that going forward. Upon tear down, the breakover torque was th=
ru the roof but that is due to metal paste in the rollers. Also, there was n=
o fore-aft movement in the pinion on tear down.=20

I=E2=80=99ll note that after I suspected something was going wrong (second s=
ession), I noticed I had lost a little fluid out of the vent. I topped it of=
f and it required less than one stroke on my little hand pump, maybe a few o=
nces of fluid.=20

Another note, I was using redline MTL at the time of failure which I always h=
ave. After some reading, this is probably not the best for a diff. I  Will b=
e switching to their shock proof oil going forward.=20

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 17, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Bob Kramer <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> I wrote a note to Greg about my thoughts that, looking at the odd pinion w=
ear, I was expecting a tail bearing failure causing the pinion to move in an=
d out on acceleration to be the root cause. In order words, loss of preload!=

>=20
> Bob Kramer
>=20
>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 8:51 AM, fubog1 via Fot <[email-masked]> wrot=
e:
>> That's definitely not a "normal" failure; the ring gear doesn't look too b=
ad, all considered, compared to the pinion damage.
>> That pattern doesn't look that bad either, with .005 minimum backlash, I d=
on't think it had anything to do with the failure.
>> The only other possible variable would be related to (lack of) pinion pre=
load, but if that was the case I would expect to see more ring damage.
>> I agree with Barry, the teeth do look like they are almost melted, I wond=
er if it could be a hardness issue?
>> =46rom the pictures, I see melted teeth, not broken. It also looks like t=
he front pinion bearing may have spun on the shaft. The ring gear is not nea=
rly as worn as the pinion. I have seen this melting teeth trick and pattern o=
nly once before and it was caused by loss of fluid. I used to keep the melte=
d pinion but have lost it over the past two moves.
>>=20
>> Barry
>>=20
>>=20
>> From: Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]>
>> To: Fot <[email-masked]>=20
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 8:53 PM
>> I meant to say, looking at the gear mesh, I thought I was close. In fact I=
 started closer to 0.731 pinion depth and reduced it until I got a better me=
sh pattern.=20
>>=20
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>=20
>> On Sep 16, 2018, at 1:47 PM, Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]> wrot=
e:
>>=20
>> Here are my setup notes and a few photos from the failed unit.=20
>>=20
t each. Largest being 0.006 smallest 0.005.=20
>>=20
>> Depth from bottom of saddle to top of pinion head 0.726=E2=80=9D.=20
>>=20
>> Pictures of gear mesh with this setup.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Picture of failed pinion gear.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> And companion ring gear.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I made a hell of a mess.
>>=20
>> It looks like I set the pinion too deep into the case by the write ups I=E2=
=80=99ve reviewed. But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was pretty c=
lose.=20
>> Thanks.=20
kon as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different mesh pa=
ttern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of the proper mesh patt=
ern for the Oerlikon type gears?  I can not find one. I contacted Bastuck wi=
th no luck there.=20
>>=20
>> This might help:
>>=20
>> https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-selection-for-=
optimal-performance/
>>=20
>> Note that in the section on hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think the fir=
st photo has the toe and heel conditions reversed in the description, and it=
 looks to me as if they're using the same set of photos for both types of ge=
ar (the hobbed gear has uniform tooth height and the top of the tooth change=
s thickness from heel to toe, while the milled gear has non-uniform tooth he=
ight and uniform tooth thickness at the top, but to me, the dimensions of th=
e teeth look the same in both sets of photos).  There's also general recomme=
ndations on break-in.
>>=20
>> This is the closest I've come to finding a comparison of the meshing of t=
he two types, even if it has errors, and some shortcuts in the     descripti=
>> Truthfully, I don't see much difference in the two sets of examples.  Wit=
h regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the two types is where optimum=
 tooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum backlash.  One thing that the=
se guides don't say is that hypoid gears, whether with standard helical pini=
ons or worm-gear pinions, don't tolerate lack of backlash.  I once worked in=
 the shipping department of Boston Digital in Massachusetts as a lowly temp b=
ack in the mid-`80s, and my boss was grumbling about how the company was in t=
rouble and it was going to affect his profit-sharing.  So, what happened?  "=
Big troubles with the fifth-axis on the 5-axis milling machines."  And?  "Th=
ey use a hypoid worm and ring gear to operate it and it's failing early."  A=
nd?  "The engineers don't understand why."  It turned out that they'd set up=
 the ring gear set to zero backlash to eliminate the slop in the gear set be=
cause the encoders they were using couldn't compensate, and, of course, the g=
ears wore out prematurely, and because none of them had an automotive backgr=
ound, they didn't understand that they'd created the failure themselves thro=
ugh bad design.  And, they were Indian, like the rest of management, and the=
 culture in India is that the upper classes are never wrong, so they simply c=
ouldn't acknowledge that they'd created the problem.  The answer was to use a=
bsolute measurement such as flexible glass rules (which require no correctio=
n) and add backlash, but I don't know that they ever did that.
ce....
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/britcars@be=
llsouth.net
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/fubog1@aol.=
com
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/rkramer56@g=
mail.com

--Apple-Mail-F7A76EA7-FE39-4483-A74B-25B8B661B786
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">The preload was spot on verified on the ben=
ch as 12inlbs of breakover torque. I did not verify after my first session t=
hat it was still good, I=E2=80=99ll likely do that going forward. Upon tear d=
own, the breakover torque was thru the roof but that is due to metal paste i=
n the rollers. Also, there was no fore-aft movement in the pinion on tear do=
wn.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>I=E2=80=99ll note that after I suspected someth=
ing was going wrong (second session), I noticed I had lost a little fluid ou=
t of the vent. I topped it off and it required less than one stroke on my li=
ttle hand pump, maybe a few onces of fluid.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>A=
nother note, I was using redline MTL at the time of failure which I always h=
ave. After some reading, this is probably not the best for a diff. I &nbsp;W=
ill be switching to their shock proof oil going forward.&nbsp;<br><br><div i=
d=3D"AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Sep 17, 2018, a=
t 10:29 AM, Bob Kramer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">rkramer56@=
gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div di=
r=3D"ltr">I wrote a note to Greg about my thoughts that, looking at the&nbsp=
;odd pinion wear, I was expecting a tail bearing failure causing&nbsp;the pi=
nion to move in and out on acceleration to be the root cause. In order words=
, loss of preload!<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">B=
ob Kramer</div></div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 8:51 AM, fubog1 via Fo=
t <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_bla=
nk">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><font color=3D"black" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">
<div> <font size=3D"2">That's definitely not a "normal" failure; the ring ge=
ar doesn't look too bad, all considered, compared to the pinion damage.</fon=
t></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">That pattern doesn't look that bad either, with .005 m=
inimum backlash, I don't think it had anything to do with the failure.</font=
></div>

<div><font size=3D"2">The only other possible variable would be related to (=
lack of) pinion preload, but if that was the case I would expect to see more=
 ring damage.<br>
</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"2"><font size=3D"2">I agree with Barry, the teeth do look=
 like they are almost melted, I wonder if it could be a hardness issue?</fon=
t></font></div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----O=
riginal Message-----<br>
From: barry rosenberg via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" targ=
et=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
To: Greg Blake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blan=
k">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked].=
net" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Mon, Sep 17, 2018 8:45 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233AOLMsgPart_1.2_3bcac95c-d56a-4a5a-8636-1ce3=
f66dc3c2">

<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolReplacedBody">
<div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Helvetica Neue,He=
lvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_929=
6"><span id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142=
_9297">=46rom the pictures, I see melted teeth, not broken. It also looks li=
ke the front pinion bearing may have spun on the shaft. The ring gear is not=
 nearly as worn as the pinion. I have seen this melting teeth trick and patt=
ern only once before and it was caused by loss of fluid. I used to keep the m=
elted pinion but have lost it over the past two moves.</span></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_929=
5"><span><br>
</span></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_929=
3"><span id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142=
_9566">Barry</span></div>

<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_qtdSeparateBR" id=3D"m_-22441408=
34818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9294"><br>
<br>
</div>

<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yahoo_quoted" id=3D"m_-224414083=
4818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9056" style=3D"display:blo=
ck"> =20
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-=
serif;font-size:13px" id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_=
1537185131142_9055">=20
<div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucid=
a Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px" id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_=
3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9054">=20
<div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_15371=
85131142_9059"> <font id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_=
1537185131142_9568" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> <hr id=3D"m_-2244140834818042=
233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9567" size=3D"1"> <b id=3D"m_-224=
4140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9570"><span style=3D=
"font-weight:bold" id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_153=
7185131142_9569">From:</span></b> Greg Blake via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:f=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
 <b id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9572=
"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold" id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3=
_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9571">To:</span></b> Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fo=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; <br>
 <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, September 16, 2=
018 8:53 PM<br>
 <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crow=
n and pinion gear break in<br>
 </font> </div>
=20
<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_y_msg_container" id=3D"m_-224414=
0834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_9053"><br>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893">
<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_905=
2">I meant to say, looking at the gear mesh, I thought I was close. In fact I=
 started closer to 0.731 pinion depth and reduced it until I got a better me=
sh pattern.&nbsp;<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">
<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">Se=
nt from my iPhone</div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_905=
1">
<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=3D=
"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd71036"><br clear=3D"none">O=
n Sep 16, 2018, at 1:47 PM, Greg Blake via Fot &lt;<a rel=3D"noopener norefe=
rrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">fo=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
</div>

<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=3D=
"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd55773"><blockquote>
<div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</div>

<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=3D=
"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd31312">
<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_905=
8">Here are my setup notes and a few photos from the failed unit.&nbsp;
<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537185131142_905=
7"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>Backlash averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D measured at 4 locations 90 degrees ap=
art each. Largest being 0.006 smallest 0.005.&nbsp;</div>

<div>Depth from bottom of saddle to top of pinion head 0.726=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;=
</div>

<div>Pictures of gear mesh with this setup.&nbsp;</div>

<div><img id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv26682018933E2CACC5-8E00-4B5=
B-B051-F646A283219F" alt=3D"image1.jpeg" src=3D"cid:OEBGPOZiOCbjWNDH2oGu"><i=
mg id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893F27986DE-2A18-442A-AF1D-=
D486D9F1612D" alt=3D"image2.jpeg" src=3D"cid:Zsoo07QvzAkYAmo8lcAI"></div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">Picture of failed pinion gear.&nbsp;</div>

<div><img id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893E27D42DC-9E94-4DE=
C-93B8-EF080ECC0F87" alt=3D"image3.jpeg" src=3D"cid:a2lpBBum1fcADGbcVMGW"><b=
r clear=3D"none">
<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">An=
d companion ring gear.&nbsp;</div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><i=
mg id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893DE51EC74-B569-4EEC-AC1C-=
66DB1D425D36" alt=3D"image4.jpeg" src=3D"cid:w8izEelW8cseQymUeThC"><br clear=
=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><b=
r clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">I m=
ade a hell of a mess.</div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><b=
r clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">It=
 looks like I set the pinion too deep into the case by the write ups I=E2=80=
=99ve reviewed. But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was pretty clo=
se.&nbsp;</div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><b=
r clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">Wh=
at do y=E2=80=99all think?</div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><b=
r clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">Th=
anks.&nbsp;</div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature"><b=
r clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893AppleMailSignature">Se=
nt from my iPhone</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael Porter &lt;<a r=
el=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" t=
arget=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=
=3D"none"></div>
<blockquote>
<div>
 =20
    </div>
</blockquote></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893moz-cite-prefix">On=
 9/13/2018 4:52 AM, Greg Blake wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
    </div>

    <blockquote>
      </blockquote></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqt0130226597" id=3D=
"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893yqtfd44288">
      Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets
      are&nbsp;<span>Oerlikon
        as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different
        mesh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of
        the proper mesh pattern for the&nbsp;Oerlikon type gears?&nbsp; I ca=
n not
        find one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck there.&nbsp;</span>
     =20
<div><br clear=3D"none">
      </div>

   =20
    This might help:<br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" class=3D"m_-224414083481804223=
3aolmail_yiv2668201893moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.cartechbook=
s.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-selection-for-optimal-performance/" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://www.cartechbooks.com/<wbr>techtips/ring-and-pinion-gea=
r-<wbr>selection-for-optimal-<wbr>performance/</a><br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    Note that in the section on hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think
    the first photo has the toe and heel conditions reversed in the
    description, and it looks to me as if they're using the same set of
    photos for both types of gear (the hobbed gear has uniform tooth
    height and the top of the tooth changes thickness from heel to toe,
    while the milled gear has non-uniform tooth height and uniform tooth
    thickness at the top, but to me, the dimensions of the teeth look
    the same in both sets of photos).&nbsp; There's also general
    recommendations on break-in.<br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    This is the closest I've come to finding a comparison of the meshing
    of the two types, even if it has errors, and some shortcuts in the
    descriptions.&nbsp; This, though, is simpler, and might be helpful:<br c=
lear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    <a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" class=3D"m_-22441408348180=
42233aolmail_yiv2668201893moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://canadawidepa=
rts.com/downloads/dana_tooth_pattern.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://canadawid=
eparts.com/<wbr>downloads/dana_tooth_pattern.<wbr>pdf</a><br clear=3D"none">=

    <br clear=3D"none">
    Truthfully, I don't see much difference in the two sets of
    examples.&nbsp; With regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the two=

    types is where optimum tooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum
    backlash.&nbsp; One thing that these guides don't say is that hypoid
    gears, whether with standard helical pinions or worm-gear pinions,
    don't tolerate lack of backlash.&nbsp; I once worked in the shipping
    department of Boston Digital in Massachusetts as a lowly temp back
    in the mid-`80s, and my boss was grumbling about how the company was
    in trouble and it was going to affect his profit-sharing.&nbsp; So, what=

    happened?&nbsp; "Big troubles with the fifth-axis on the 5-axis milling
    machines."&nbsp; And?&nbsp; "They use a hypoid worm and ring gear to ope=
rate
    it and it's failing early."&nbsp; And?&nbsp; "The engineers don't unders=
tand
    why."&nbsp; It turned out that they'd set up the ring gear set to zero
    backlash to eliminate the slop in the gear set because the encoders
    they were using couldn't compensate, and, of course, the gears wore
    out prematurely, and because none of them had an automotive
    background, they didn't understand that they'd created the failure
    themselves through bad design.&nbsp; And, they were Indian, like the res=
t
    of management, and the culture in India is that the upper classes
    are never wrong, so they simply couldn't acknowledge that they'd
    created the problem.&nbsp; The answer was to use absolute measurement
    such as flexible glass rules (which require no correction) and add
    backlash, but I don't know that they ever did that.<br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    Cheers.<br clear=3D"none">
    <pre class=3D"m_-2244140834818042233aolmail_yiv2668201893moz-signature">=
--=20

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.=
...</pre>
 =20

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