Subject: Re: [Fot] 110 Octane

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 21:05:42 -0500

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I guess we autocrossers that shop the local speed shops for a 5 gallon pail=
 of Sunoco 112 race fuel and pay $65 ( !! ) we are easy victims for the cor=
porate CEO's.

Gotta love the Kick thou

Cheers,
Bob T
'64 Spit GT  autocrosser

-----Original Message-----
From: Duncan Charlton <[email-masked]>
To: 'Friends of Triumph' Triumph <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sat, Feb 20, 2016 9:38 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] 110 Octane

I found an interesting chart of race fuel specs, and it includes AvGas (100=
LL only) for comparison.  http://smithtex.com/racing/fuelcomp.html

Just to complicate things Avgas can be rated by =E2=80=9Caviation lean=E2=
=80=9D (one typically leans out the mixture at higher elevations, judging b=
y watching the exhaust gas temperature) or =E2=80=9Caviation rich=E2=80=9D =
(considering supercharging, high temperature and high manifold pressure) st=
andards.  So you might see a rating like 100/130 which means that if you ru=
n it richer the knock resistance is higher.   This fuel, I have read, has h=
alf the tetraethyl lead allowed in pre-1975 premium leaded auto fuel.

Octane numbers can confuse the unwary.  Most of you probably already know t=
his, but it might be worth mentioning that the premium you buy at a street =
pump might be listed as 93 octane but that=E2=80=99s the average of Researc=
h Method (index of acceleration knock) and Motor Method (index of knock at =
high engine speeds), which is about the same as the stuff they call 98 octa=
ne in some other countries, which is classified by the Research Octane Numb=
er only.  Below the listed octane number on the pump one can often see the =
equation (RM + MM) / 2 or (R+M)/2.  The Research Octane Number is typically=
 higher than the Motor Octane Number about 10 points but the chart I referr=
ed to suggests that it can vary by 4.9 to 14 points (=E2=80=9Csensitivity=
=E2=80=9D).  A =E2=80=9Csingle grade=E2=80=9D AvGas such as "110" is rated =
by the Research Octane Number, so 110 AvGas might be comparable to 96 octan=
e race fuel or it might be more like 105 octane race fuel, depending on the=
 brand of race fuel.

Whitfield Oil=E2=80=99s website mentions that Avgas has a lower specific gr=
avity than most racing gasolines, which means it=E2=80=99s less dense, so t=
he air/fuel mixture likely would need to be adjusted.

Among other differences, Avgas is formulated with lower vapor pressure, so =
there is less likelihood of vapor lock, particularly at higher elevations. =
 I=E2=80=99ve heard claims that motors run cooler on AvGas, so assuming it=
=E2=80=99s properly jetted, doesn't that mean it=E2=80=99s making less powe=
r?

Duncan
(Texas)

On Feb 19, 2016, at 9:36 PM, Mike Jackson <[email-masked]> wrote:

It's a long story.  Short version, I run race fuel in the TR3 but AvGas in =
my FV motors.  I'm paying about $6/gal for AvGas.

Folks more knowledgeable than I am have explained that octane is not a "God=
s Law" formula.  Consequently the formula for calculating octane for AvGas =
is very different from that for road going fuel.  So, 100 octane AvGas has =
no good way to compare to race fuel.  In general, aviation motors are lower=
 compression than our race engines.  They need ultimate reliability since t=
hey cant coast to the side of the track if they throw a rod.

On the other hand, those same more knowledgeable folks told us in the FV co=
mmunity that AvGas "low lead" has more lead than road fuel ever did.  Same =
issue of reliability with valves and seats.

Mike

-----Original Message-----=20
From: Bill Dentinger=20
Sent: Feb 19, 2016 8:31 PM=20
To: "J.C. Hassall"=20
Cc: 'Friends of Triumph' Triumph=20
Subject: Re: [Fot] 110 Octane=20

Maybe he will chime in, but I know Mike Jackson, and others of his ilk, use=
 to buy AV gas  at an airport and bring it to the track, where they would '=
cut' it with regular pump gas.  Fifty/fifty, as I recall.  Seemed like a lo=
t of extra work to me, but Mike said that AV gas must achieve a particular =
octane rating, which he trusted over and above what you might purchase at t=
he track, or else where.

Bill Dentinger

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 19, 2016, at 3:38 PM, J.C. Hassall <[email-masked]> wrote:

Try your local GA airport. Here in Blacksburg VA 110 LL is $4.44 a gallon.=
=20

jim

Fat-thumbed from my iPhone

On Feb 19, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Spitfire Racing <[email-masked]>=
 wrote:

At Summit Point it=E2=80=99s also $8.85 @ gallon currently.
=20
russ

_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
l.com

_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
l.com

_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
[email-masked]

_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
l.com

------=_Part_89461_101423302.1456020342783
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<font color=3D'blue' size=3D'4' face=3D'Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif'>I gue=
ss we autocrossers that shop the local speed shops for a 5 gallon pail of S=
unoco 112 race fuel and pay $65 ( !! ) we are easy victims for the corporat=
e CEO's.
<div><br>
</div>

<div>Gotta love the Kick thou</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>Cheers,</div>

<div>Bob T</div>

<div>'64 Spit GT &nbsp;autocrosser</div>

<div><br>
<br>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----=
Original Message-----<br>
From: Duncan Charlton &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: 'Friends of Triumph' Triumph &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Sat, Feb 20, 2016 9:38 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] 110 Octane<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1.2_306a0d7d-86e7-46b7-8656-c967442279a1">

<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"aolReplacedBody">I found an interestin=
g chart of race fuel specs, and it includes AvGas (100LL only) for comparis=
on. &nbsp;<a class=3D"" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://smithtex.com/racin=
g/fuelcomp.html">http://smithtex.com/racing/fuelcomp.html</a>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>

<div class=3D"">Just to complicate things Avgas can be rated by =E2=80=9Cav=
iation lean=E2=80=9D (one typically leans out the mixture at higher elevati=
ons, judging by watching the exhaust gas temperature) or =E2=80=9Caviation =
rich=E2=80=9D (considering supercharging, high temperature and high manifol=
d pressure) standards. &nbsp;So you might see a rating like 100/130 which m=
eans that if you run it richer the knock resistance is higher. &nbsp; This =
fuel, I have read,&nbsp;has half the tetraethyl lead allowed in pre-1975 pr=
emium leaded auto fuel.
<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>

<div class=3D"">Octane numbers can confuse the unwary. &nbsp;Most of you pr=
obably already know this, but it might be worth mentioning that the premium=
 you buy at a street pump might be listed as 93 octane but that=E2=80=99s t=
he average of Research Method (index of acceleration knock) and Motor Metho=
d (index of knock at high engine speeds), which is about the same as the st=
uff they call 98 octane in some other countries, which is classified by the=
 Research Octane Number only. &nbsp;Below the listed octane number on the p=
ump one can often see the equation (RM + MM) / 2 or (R+M)/2. &nbsp;The Rese=
arch Octane Number is typically higher than the Motor Octane Number about 1=
0 points but the chart I referred to suggests that it can vary by 4.9 to 14=
 points (=E2=80=9Csensitivity=E2=80=9D). &nbsp;A =E2=80=9Csingle grade=E2=
=80=9D AvGas such as "110" is rated by the Research Octane Number, so 110 A=
vGas might be comparable to 96 octane race fuel or it might be more like 10=
5 octane race fuel, depending on the brand of race fuel.
<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>

<div class=3D"">Whitfield Oil=E2=80=99s website mentions that Avgas has a l=
ower specific gravity than most racing gasolines, which means it=E2=80=99s =
less dense, so the air/fuel mixture likely would need to be adjusted.
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>

<div class=3D"">Among other differences, Avgas is formulated with lower vap=
or pressure, so there is less likelihood of vapor lock, particularly at hig=
her elevations. &nbsp;I=E2=80=99ve heard claims that motors run cooler on A=
vGas, so assuming it=E2=80=99s properly jetted, doesn't that mean it=E2=80=
=99s making less power?</div>

<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>

<div class=3D"">Duncan</div>

<div class=3D"">(Texas)</div>

<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div><blockquote class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Feb 19, 2016, at 9:36 PM, Mike Jackson &lt;<a class=3D""=
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">grandwazoo@eart=
hlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-w=
eight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; te=
xt-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; wo=
rd-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: 16px; font-fami=
ly: arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It's a long story. &nbsp;Short version, =
I run race fuel in the TR3 but AvGas in my FV motors. &nbsp;I'm paying abou=
t $6/gal for AvGas.
<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">Folks more knowledgeable than I am h=
ave explained that octane is not a "Gods Law" formula. &nbsp;Consequently t=
he formula for calculating octane for AvGas is very different from that for=
 road going fuel. &nbsp;So, 100 octane AvGas has no good way to compare to =
race fuel. &nbsp;In general, aviation motors are lower compression than our=
 race engines. &nbsp;They need ultimate reliability since they cant coast t=
o the side of the track if they throw a rod.</div>

<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>

<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">On the other hand, those same more k=
nowledgeable folks told us in the FV community that AvGas "low lead" has mo=
re lead than road fuel ever did. &nbsp;Same issue of reliability with valve=
s and seats.</div>

<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>

<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">Mike<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><b=
lockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; font-weig=
ht: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-size: 10pt; fon=
t-family: arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<span cl=
ass=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">From: Bill Dentin=
ger<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">Sent: =
Feb 19, 2016 8:31 PM<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">To: "J.C. Hassall"<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span><br class=3D"">Cc: 'Friends of Triumph' Triumph<span class=3D"Apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">Subject: Re: [Fot] 110 Octane<sp=
an class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><br class=3D=
"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">Maybe he will chime in, but I know M=
ike Jackson, and others of his ilk, use to buy AV gas &nbsp;at an airport a=
nd bring it to the track, where they would 'cut' it with regular pump gas. =
&nbsp;Fifty/fifty, as I recall. &nbsp;Seemed like a lot of extra work to me=
, but Mike said that AV gas must achieve a particular octane rating, which =
he trusted over and above what you might purchase at the track, or else whe=
re.</div>

<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>

<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">Bill Dentinger<br class=3D""><br cla=
ss=3D"">Sent from my iPad</div>

<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Feb 19, 2016, at 3=
:38 PM, J.C. Hassall &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-=
decoration: underline;" class=3D"" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">jhass=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>
<blockquote class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">Try your local GA airport. Here in B=
lacksburg VA 110 LL is $4.44 a gallon.&nbsp;</div>

<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>

<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">jim<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Fat=
-thumbed from my iPhone</div>

<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Feb 19, 2016, at 3=
:29 PM, Spitfire Racing &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; te=
xt-decoration: underline;" class=3D"" href=3D"mailto:Spitfire_Racing@twcny.=
rr.com">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=
=3D""></div>
<blockquote class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"margin: 0px; page: WordSection1;">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">At Summit Point it=E2=80=99s also $8.85 @ gallo=
n currently.</div>

<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>

<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">russ</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">___________________=
____________________________</span><br class=3D""><span class=3D""><a targe=
t=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"=
" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a></span><br class=
=3D""><span class=3D""></span><br class=3D""><span class=3D""><a target=3D"=
_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"" hre=
f=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com/">http://www.fot-racing.com</a></span><br cl=
ass=3D""><span class=3D""></span><br class=3D""><span class=3D"">Donate:<sp=
an class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a target=3D"_blank" style=
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ww.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a></span><br clas=
s=3D""><span class=3D"">Archive:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
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</blockquote></div>
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<div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">___________________=
____________________________</span><br class=3D""><span class=3D""><a targe=
t=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"=
" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a></span><br class=
=3D""><span class=3D""></span><br class=3D""><span class=3D""><a target=3D"=
_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"" hre=
f=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com/">http://www.fot-racing.com</a></span><br cl=
ass=3D""><span class=3D""></span><br class=3D""><span class=3D"">Donate:<sp=
an class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a target=3D"_blank" style=
=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"" href=3D"http://w=
ww.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a></span><br clas=
s=3D""><span class=3D"">Archive:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
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ms">http://www.team.net/forums</a></span><br class=3D""><span class=3D"">Un=
subscribe/Manage:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a targ=
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"" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]">ht=
tp://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]</a></span><br cl=
ass=3D""><span class=3D""></span><br class=3D""><span class=3D""></span><br=
 class=3D""></div>
</blockquote></blockquote></div>
</div>
</div>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;=
 font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans=
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ace: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0p=
x; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">___________________=
____________________________</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; fon=
t-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal=
; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0p=
x; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0=
px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-s=
tyle: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: no=
rmal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: n=
one; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-str=
oke-width: 0px;" class=3D"" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
.net">[email-masked]</a><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size:=
 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; lette=
r-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text=
-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -we=
bkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetic=
a; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-inde=
nt: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spac=
ing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a style=3D"color: pu=
rple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spaci=
ng: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transf=
orm: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-te=
xt-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.fot-=
racing.com/">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br style=3D"font-family: Helveti=
ca; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:=
 normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-ind=
ent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spa=
cing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;=
 font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: st=
art; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: a=
uto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-v=
ariant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;=
 text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: no=
rmal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; floa=
t: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Donate:<span class=3D"Appl=
e-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a style=3D"color: purple; text-deco=
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