Subject: Re: [Fot] 110 Octane

From: Duncan Charlton <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 07:59:27 -0600

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I found an interesting chart of race fuel specs, and it includes AvGas =
(100LL only) for comparison.  http://smithtex.com/racing/fuelcomp.html

Just to complicate things Avgas can be rated by =E2=80=9Caviation =
lean=E2=80=9D (one typically leans out the mixture at higher elevations, =
judging by watching the exhaust gas temperature) or =E2=80=9Caviation =
rich=E2=80=9D (considering supercharging, high temperature and high =
manifold pressure) standards.  So you might see a rating like 100/130 =
which means that if you run it richer the knock resistance is higher.   =
This fuel, I have read, has half the tetraethyl lead allowed in pre-1975 =
premium leaded auto fuel.

Octane numbers can confuse the unwary.  Most of you probably already =
know this, but it might be worth mentioning that the premium you buy at =
a street pump might be listed as 93 octane but that=E2=80=99s the =
average of Research Method (index of acceleration knock) and Motor =
Method (index of knock at high engine speeds), which is about the same =
as the stuff they call 98 octane in some other countries, which is =
classified by the Research Octane Number only.  Below the listed octane =
number on the pump one can often see the equation (RM + MM) / 2 or =
(R+M)/2.  The Research Octane Number is typically higher than the Motor =
Octane Number about 10 points but the chart I referred to suggests that =
it can vary by 4.9 to 14 points (=E2=80=9Csensitivity=E2=80=9D).  A =
=E2=80=9Csingle grade=E2=80=9D AvGas such as "110" is rated by the =
Research Octane Number, so 110 AvGas might be comparable to 96 octane =
race fuel or it might be more like 105 octane race fuel, depending on =
the brand of race fuel.

Whitfield Oil=E2=80=99s website mentions that Avgas has a lower specific =
gravity than most racing gasolines, which means it=E2=80=99s less dense, =
so the air/fuel mixture likely would need to be adjusted.

Among other differences, Avgas is formulated with lower vapor pressure, =
so there is less likelihood of vapor lock, particularly at higher =
elevations.  I=E2=80=99ve heard claims that motors run cooler on AvGas, =
so assuming it=E2=80=99s properly jetted, doesn't that mean it=E2=80=99s =
making less power?

Duncan
(Texas)

> On Feb 19, 2016, at 9:36 PM, Mike Jackson <[email-masked]> =
wrote:
>=20
> It's a long story.  Short version, I run race fuel in the TR3 but =
AvGas in my FV motors.  I'm paying about $6/gal for AvGas.
>=20
> Folks more knowledgeable than I am have explained that octane is not a =
"Gods Law" formula.  Consequently the formula for calculating octane for =
AvGas is very different from that for road going fuel.  So, 100 octane =
AvGas has no good way to compare to race fuel.  In general, aviation =
motors are lower compression than our race engines.  They need ultimate =
reliability since they cant coast to the side of the track if they throw =
a rod.
>=20
> On the other hand, those same more knowledgeable folks told us in the =
FV community that AvGas "low lead" has more lead than road fuel ever =
did.  Same issue of reliability with valves and seats.
>=20
> Mike
>=20
> -----Original Message-----=20
> From: Bill Dentinger=20
> Sent: Feb 19, 2016 8:31 PM=20
> To: "J.C. Hassall"=20
> Cc: 'Friends of Triumph' Triumph=20
> Subject: Re: [Fot] 110 Octane=20
>=20
> Maybe he will chime in, but I know Mike Jackson, and others of his =
ilk, use to buy AV gas  at an airport and bring it to the track, where =
they would 'cut' it with regular pump gas.  Fifty/fifty, as I recall.  =
Seemed like a lot of extra work to me, but Mike said that AV gas must =
achieve a particular octane rating, which he trusted over and above what =
you might purchase at the track, or else where.
>=20
> Bill Dentinger
>=20
> Sent from my iPad
>=20
> On Feb 19, 2016, at 3:38 PM, J.C. Hassall <[email-masked] =
>=20
>> Try your local GA airport. Here in Blacksburg VA 110 LL is $4.44 a =
gallon.=20
>>=20
>> jim
>>=20
>> Fat-thumbed from my iPhone
>>=20
>> On Feb 19, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Spitfire Racing =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> At Summit Point it=E2=80=99s also $8.85 @ gallon currently.
>>> =20
>>> russ
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>=20
>>> http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>
>>>=20
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =
<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive <http://www.team.net/archive>
>>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums <http://www.team.net/forums>
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked] =
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>>>=20
>>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>>=20
>> http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>
>>=20
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =
<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive <http://www.team.net/archive>
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>>=20
>>=20
> _______________________________________________
>=20
> http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I found an interesting chart of race fuel specs, and it =
includes AvGas (100LL only) for comparison. &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://smithtex.com/racing/fuelcomp.html" =
class=3D"">http://smithtex.com/racing/fuelcomp.html</a><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Just to complicate things Avgas can be =
rated by =E2=80=9Caviation lean=E2=80=9D (one typically leans out the =
mixture at higher elevations, judging by watching the exhaust gas =
temperature) or =E2=80=9Caviation rich=E2=80=9D (considering =
supercharging, high temperature and high manifold pressure) standards. =
&nbsp;So you might see a rating like 100/130 which means that if you run =
it richer the knock resistance is higher. &nbsp; This fuel, I have =
read,&nbsp;has half the tetraethyl lead allowed in pre-1975 premium =
leaded auto fuel.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Octane numbers can confuse the unwary. &nbsp;Most of you =
probably already know this, but it might be worth mentioning that the =
premium you buy at a street pump might be listed as 93 octane but =
that=E2=80=99s the average of Research Method (index of acceleration =
knock) and Motor Method (index of knock at high engine speeds), which is =
about the same as the stuff they call 98 octane in some other countries, =
which is classified by the Research Octane Number only. &nbsp;Below the =
listed octane number on the pump one can often see the equation (RM + =
MM) / 2 or (R+M)/2. &nbsp;The Research Octane Number is typically higher =
than the Motor Octane Number about 10 points but the chart I referred to =
suggests that it can vary by 4.9 to 14 points (=E2=80=9Csensitivity=E2=80=9D=
). &nbsp;A =E2=80=9Csingle grade=E2=80=9D AvGas such as "110" is rated =
by the Research Octane Number, so 110 AvGas might be comparable to 96 =
octane race fuel or it might be more like 105 octane race fuel, =
depending on the brand of race fuel.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Whitfield Oil=E2=80=99s website =
mentions that Avgas has a lower specific gravity than most racing =
gasolines, which means it=E2=80=99s less dense, so the air/fuel mixture =
likely would need to be adjusted.<div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Among other differences, Avgas is =
formulated with lower vapor pressure, so there is less likelihood of =
vapor lock, particularly at higher elevations. &nbsp;I=E2=80=99ve heard =
claims that motors run cooler on AvGas, so assuming it=E2=80=99s =
properly jetted, doesn't that mean it=E2=80=99s making less =
power?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Duncan</div><div class=3D"">(Texas)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Feb 19, 2016, at 9:36 PM, Mike Jackson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: 16px; =
font-family: arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It's a long story. =
&nbsp;Short version, I run race fuel in the TR3 but AvGas in my FV =
motors. &nbsp;I'm paying about $6/gal for AvGas.<div style=3D"margin: =
0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" =
class=3D"">Folks more knowledgeable than I am have explained that octane =
is not a "Gods Law" formula. &nbsp;Consequently the formula for =
calculating octane for AvGas is very different from that for road going =
fuel. &nbsp;So, 100 octane AvGas has no good way to compare to race =
fuel. &nbsp;In general, aviation motors are lower compression than our =
race engines. &nbsp;They need ultimate reliability since they cant coast =
to the side of the track if they throw a rod.</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" =
class=3D"">On the other hand, those same more knowledgeable folks told =
us in the FV community that AvGas "low lead" has more lead than road =
fuel ever did. &nbsp;Same issue of reliability with valves and =
seats.</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">Mike<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; =
margin-left: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 255); border-left-width: =
2px; border-left-style: solid; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; =
text-decoration: none; font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">From: Bill =
Dentinger<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><[email-masked] =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Sent: Feb 19, 2016 8:31 PM<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">To: "J.C. =
Hassall"<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><[email-masked] =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Cc: 'Friends of Triumph' Triumph<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><[email-masked] =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Subject: Re: [Fot] 110 Octane<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><zzzhtml class=3D""><zzzhead class=3D""><zzzmeta =
http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""></zzzmeta></zzzhead><zzzbody dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">Maybe he will chime in, but I know =
Mike Jackson, and others of his ilk, use to buy AV gas &nbsp;at an =
airport and bring it to the track, where they would 'cut' it with =
regular pump gas. &nbsp;Fifty/fifty, as I recall. &nbsp;Seemed like a =
lot of extra work to me, but Mike said that AV gas must achieve a =
particular octane rating, which he trusted over and above what you might =
purchase at the track, or else where.</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" =
class=3D"">Bill Dentinger<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Sent from my =
iPad</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Feb =
19, 2016, at 3:38 PM, J.C. Hassall &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><zzzmeta =
http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">Try your local GA =
airport. Here in Blacksburg VA 110 LL is $4.44 a gallon.&nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">jim<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Fat-thumbed from my iPhone</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Feb 19, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Spitfire Racing =
&lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><zzzmeta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" =
content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii" class=3D""><zzzmeta =
name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)" =
class=3D""><zzz!--[if gte=3D"" mso=3D"" 9]=3D"" class=3D""><xml =
class=3D""><o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" =
class=3D""></o:shapedefaults></xml><zzz![endif]-- class=3D""><zzz!--[if =
gte=3D"" mso=3D"" 9]=3D"" class=3D""><xml class=3D""><o:shapelayout =
v:ext=3D"edit" class=3D""><o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" =
class=3D""></o:idmap></o:shapelayout></xml><zzz![endif]-- class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"margin: 0px; page: WordSection1;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">At Summit Point it=E2=80=99s also $8.85 =
@ gallon currently.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">russ<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></zzz![endif]--></zzz!--[if></zzz![endif]--><=
/zzz!--[if></zzzmeta></zzzmeta></div></blockquote><blockquote =
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