Subject: Re: [Fot] Gearbox thoughts

From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:35:10 -0400

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I haven't converted one to the Stag type thrust bearing but I do advocate changing the gearoil regularly (every race or 2), they live a lot longer. The trash in the gearoil eats the washers up, exacerbating the load/wear issue.
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Tetterton <[email-masked]>
To: FOT Triumph <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thu, Oct 15, 2015 12:11 pm
Subject: [Fot] Gearbox thoughts

Since we have been thinking about gearbox's. The Stag layshaft was changed by
Triumph to try and make them last longer due to the additional torque of the V8.
They added needle bearings in place of the brass thrust washers at each end and
an additional bearing  in the lay gear at the end where 1st gear is. Has anybody
tried this set up in a racing box? Does it help in the wearing of the layshaft?

The addition of needle bearings means that the spacing of the box inside
where the lay gear rides is greater. The needle bearings being thicker than the
thrust washers. This means that the Stag box is different inside. 
I have been
able to make a tool that will cut the inside of a TR box to be the same as a
Stag. I plan to build a box using the needle bearings. Don't at this time plan
to put another bearing inside the lay gear. If I make the lay gear deeper
inside, I am afraid it will not be hard enough for the bearings to ride inside.

Before doing all this, has any body gone down this road before. If so what
has been the experience? 
Also any body with thoughts chime in. Is it worth the
effort?

Dean
T.

_______________________________________________
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Donate:
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<font color='black' size='2' face='Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif'>I h<font size="2">aven't converted one to the Stag type thrust bearing but I do advocate changing the gearoil regularly (every race or 2), they live a lot longer. The trash in the gearoil eats the washers up, exacerbating the load/wear issue.<br>
Glen<br>
</font>

<div> <br>

</div>

<div> <br>

</div>

<div> <br>

</div>

<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original Message-----<br>

From: Dean Tetterton &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>

To: FOT Triumph &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>

Sent: Thu, Oct 15, 2015 12:11 pm<br>

Subject: [Fot] Gearbox thoughts<br>

<br>

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<pre style="font-size: 9pt;"><tt>Since we have been thinking about gearbox's. The Stag layshaft was changed by
Triumph to try and make them last longer due to the additional torque of the V8.
They added needle bearings in place of the brass thrust washers at each end and
an additional bearing  in the lay gear at the end where 1st gear is. Has anybody
tried this set up in a racing box? Does it help in the wearing of the layshaft?

The addition of needle bearings means that the spacing of the box inside
where the lay gear rides is greater. The needle bearings being thicker than the
thrust washers. This means that the Stag box is different inside. 
I have been
able to make a tool that will cut the inside of a TR box to be the same as a
Stag. I plan to build a box using the needle bearings. Don't at this time plan
to put another bearing inside the lay gear. If I make the lay gear deeper
inside, I am afraid it will not be hard enough for the bearings to ride inside.

Before doing all this, has any body gone down this road before. If so what
has been the experience? 
Also any body with thoughts chime in. Is it worth the
effort?

Dean
T.

_______________________________________________
<a removedlink__236aa0c6-7dd8-412a-9d8e-07d083bd654a__href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>

<a removedlink__236aa0c6-7dd8-412a-9d8e-07d083bd654a__href="http://www.fot-racing.com" target="_blank">http://www.fot-racing.com</a>

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---

From: "Steve Yott" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:49:22 -0500

I have had the opportunity to rebuild many TR gearboxes and a handful of
Stag boxes and would like to offer my opinion and that is what it is... my
opinion.

The Stag box added a lot of complexity to the area of the laygear and shaft.
The layshaft is different in that it has two outside dimensions that match
up to the spacers for the needle bearings. Now you have needle bearings,
spacers and thrust washers.  I am basically not a fan of this arrangement as
there are many more parts to fail and the needle bearings are known to fail.
Where the Stag laygear does benefit is from having two rear bearings!

The real problem occurs when excessive torque on the single rear bearing
causes the bearing and or shaft to fail.  Once there is play in the bearing
to shaft fit the laygear starts floating up, down and side to side which
then causes non-parallel loads on the bronze thrust washers and they begin
to fail.

I have bored a good number of laygears to install double rear bearings in
the rear of the gear.  I do not use the "open cage" bearing as the TR6 uses
but I use the TR4 type enclosed bearings.  I do this operation on all
gearboxes I rebuild now because I am sold on this fix.  The bronze thrust
washers will withstand the loads on them as long as they are square with
each other and the laygear end float is properly set and I use no more than
.006" of end float.

Just my opinion!

Steve Yott

-----Original Message-----
From: Fot [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Dean Tetterton
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 9:20 AM
To: FOT Triumph
Subject: [Fot] Gearbox thoughts

Since we have been thinking about gearbox's. The Stag layshaft was changed
by Triumph to try and make them last longer due to the additional torque of
the V8. They added needle bearings in place of the brass thrust washers at
each end and an additional bearing  in the lay gear at the end where 1st
gear is. Has anybody tried this set up in a racing box? Does it help in the
wearing of the layshaft? 

The addition of needle bearings means that the spacing of the box inside
where the lay gear rides is greater. The needle bearings being thicker than
the thrust washers. This means that the Stag box is different inside. 
I have been able to make a tool that will cut the inside of a TR box to be
the same as a Stag. I plan to build a box using the needle bearings. Don't
at this time plan to put another bearing inside the lay gear. If I make the
lay gear deeper inside, I am afraid it will not be hard enough for the
bearings to ride inside. 

Before doing all this, has any body gone down this road before. If so what
has been the experience? 
Also any body with thoughts chime in. Is it worth the effort?

Dean T.

---

From: Dean Tetterton <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 17:54:27 -0400

Boy, Lots of good thoughts on this. Still lots of unknown's. Where are the engineers, Ha!

First off Glen is right, one needs to change the gear oil to keep the ground up piece's
of metal to a minimum. Cheap to do and doesn't take that long. I even run a second
magnetic plug in the fill hole.
Second could not agree with Steve more. Double the bearing area is a good help. I have
a question as to the TR4 press in bearing. Good in it gives more bearing area with the
small rollers but I feel it suffers from oil flow. Is there any why to improve on that? I use them
a lot but would feel better if I could see a way to get more oil thru them. I have pulled apart
boxes where the rollers are packed with crud. 
Third with the helical cut gears, there is a bit of pressure applied to the thrust washers as they
try to push away from each other. Would the needle bearings help with that? Who knows?
Is it worth the expense? Guess the answer here is straight cut gears. Yeah, a dog box...

Still lots of questions but nice to hear what other people think. We need to get together
with some cold one's and solve all these problems. 

How about a T5?

Dean T
Never stop improving the equipment.

On Oct 15, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Steve Yott wrote:

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---

From: Scott Janzen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:31:50 -0400

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Oops, one more thing to add to my pre-race prep.  Every race weekend, really=
?

Sent from my mobile device=20

On Oct 15, 2015, at 12:35 PM, fubog1 <[email-masked]> wrote:

I haven't converted one to the Stag type thrust bearing but I do advocate ch=
anging the gearoil regularly (every race or 2), they live a lot longer. The t=
rash in the gearoil eats the washers up, exacerbating the load/wear issue.
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Tetterton <[email-masked]>
To: FOT Triumph <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thu, Oct 15, 2015 12:11 pm
Subject: [Fot] Gearbox thoughts

Since we have been thinking about gearbox's. The Stag layshaft was changed b=
y
Triumph to try and make them last longer due to the additional torque of the=
 V8.
They added needle bearings in place of the brass thrust washers at each end a=
nd
an additional bearing  in the lay gear at the end where 1st gear is. Has any=
body
tried this set up in a racing box? Does it help in the wearing of the laysha=
ft?

The addition of needle bearings means that the spacing of the box inside
where the lay gear rides is greater. The needle bearings being thicker than t=
he
thrust washers. This means that the Stag box is different inside.=20
I have been
able to make a tool that will cut the inside of a TR box to be the same as a=

Stag. I plan to build a box using the needle bearings. Don't at this time pl=
an
to put another bearing inside the lay gear. If I make the lay gear deeper
inside, I am afraid it will not be hard enough for the bearings to ride insi=
de.

Before doing all this, has any body gone down this road before. If so what
has been the experience?=20
Also any body with thoughts chime in. Is it worth the
effort?

Dean
T.

Donate:

--Apple-Mail-3F1A1A65-A90A-4016-BAFD-AFFF83651868
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<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Oops, one more thing to add to my pre-race prep. &nbsp;Every race weekend, really?<br><br>Sent from my mobile device&nbsp;</div><div><br>On Oct 15, 2015, at 12:35 PM, fubog1 &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">I h<font size="2">aven't converted one to the Stag type thrust bearing but I do advocate changing the gearoil regularly (every race or 2), they live a lot longer. The trash in the gearoil eats the washers up, exacerbating the load/wear issue.<br>
Glen<br>
</font>

<div> <br>

</div>

<div> <br>

</div>

<div> <br>

</div>

From: Dean Tetterton &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

To: FOT Triumph &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

<br>

Dean
T.

Donate:

</tt></pre>
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From: "Terry Stetler" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 07:08:25 -0400 <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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  =20
We change the gearbox oil after every race weekend on Jeff's TR3, per =
Glen's advice.

=20

It's cheap insurance, and it works.   And we all know how fast that TR3 =
is now...

=20

Thanks Glen.

=20

=20

Terry Stetler

----- Original Message -----=20

Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:31 PM

Subject: Re: [Fot] Gearbox thoughts

Oops, one more thing to add to my pre-race prep.  Every race weekend, =
really?

On Oct 15, 2015, at 12:35 PM, fubog1 =

I haven't converted one to the Stag type thrust bearing but I do =
advocate changing the gearoil regularly (every race or 2), they live a =
lot longer. The trash in the gearoil eats the washers up, exacerbating =
the load/wear issue.
Glen
=20

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thu, Oct 15, 2015 12:11 pm
Subject: [Fot] Gearbox thoughts

Since we have been thinking about gearbox's. The Stag layshaft was =
changed by
Triumph to try and make them last longer due to the additional torque of =
the V8.
They added needle bearings in place of the brass thrust washers at each =
end and
an additional bearing  in the lay gear at the end where 1st gear is. Has =
anybody
tried this set up in a racing box? Does it help in the wearing of the =
layshaft?

The addition of needle bearings means that the spacing of the box inside
where the lay gear rides is greater. The needle bearings being thicker =
than the
thrust washers. This means that the Stag box is different inside.=20
I have been
able to make a tool that will cut the inside of a TR box to be the same =
as a
Stag. I plan to build a box using the needle bearings. Don't at this =
time plan
to put another bearing inside the lay gear. If I make the lay gear =
deeper
inside, I am afraid it will not be hard enough for the bearings to ride =
inside.

Before doing all this, has any body gone down this road before. If so =
what
has been the experience?=20
Also any body with thoughts chime in. Is it worth the
effort?

Dean
T.

[email-masked]<>

http://www.fot-racing.com<>

Donate:
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive<>
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Archive: http://www.team.net/archive<http://www.team.net/archive>
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<BODY id=3D"MailContainerBody" topmargin=3D"0" leftmargin=3D"0" =
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<DIV>
<DIV>We change the gearbox oil after every race weekend on Jeff's TR3, =
per=20
Glen's advice.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It's cheap insurance, and it works.&nbsp;&nbsp; And we all know how =
fast=20
that TR3 is now...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks Glen.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Terry Stetler</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;">
  <DIV style=3D"font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; =
font-stretch: normal;">-----=20
  Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; =
font-stretch: normal;"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Scott Janzen</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; =
font-stretch: normal;"><B>To:</B>=20
  <A title=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">fubog1</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; =
font-stretch: normal;"><B>Cc:</B>=20
  <A title=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; =
font-stretch: normal;"><B>Sent:</B>=20
  Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:31 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; =
font-stretch: normal;"><B>Subject:</B>=20
  Re: [Fot] Gearbox thoughts</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Oops, one more thing to add to my pre-race prep. &nbsp;Every race =

  weekend, really?<BR><BR>Sent from my mobile device&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><BR>On Oct 15, 2015, at 12:35 PM, fubog1 &lt;<A =
title=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A>&gt; =
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D"2">I h<FONT=20
  size=3D"2">aven't converted one to the Stag type thrust bearing but I =
do=20
  advocate changing the gearoil regularly (every race or 2), they live a =
lot=20
  longer. The trash in the gearoil eats the washers up, exacerbating the =

  load/wear issue.<BR>Glen<BR></FONT>=20
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: =
10pt;">-----Original=20
  Message-----<BR>From: Dean Tetterton &lt;<A =
title=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A>&gt;<BR>To: =
FOT Triumph=20
  &lt;<A title=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A>&gt;<BR>Sent: =
Thu, Oct=20
  15, 2015 12:11 pm<BR>Subject: [Fot] Gearbox thoughts<BR><BR>
  <DIV id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1_78d61825-9875-41c7-afe5-fceca221496f" =
style=3D"margin: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, =
Arial, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);">
<PRE style=3D"font-size: 9pt;"><TT>Since we have been thinking about =
gearbox's. The Stag layshaft was changed by=0A=
Triumph to try and make them last longer due to the additional torque of =
the V8.=0A=
They added needle bearings in place of the brass thrust washers at each =
end and=0A=
an additional bearing  in the lay gear at the end where 1st gear is. Has =
anybody=0A=
tried this set up in a racing box? Does it help in the wearing of the =
layshaft?=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
The addition of needle bearings means that the spacing of the box inside=0A=
where the lay gear rides is greater. The needle bearings being thicker =
than the=0A=
thrust washers. This means that the Stag box is different inside. =0A=
I have been=0A=
able to make a tool that will cut the inside of a TR box to be the same =
as a=0A=
Stag. I plan to build a box using the needle bearings. Don't at this =
time plan=0A=
to put another bearing inside the lay gear. If I make the lay gear deeper=0A=
inside, I am afraid it will not be hard enough for the bearings to ride =
inside.=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Before doing all this, has any body gone down this road before. If so =
what=0A=
has been the experience? =0A=
Also any body with thoughts chime in. Is it worth the=0A=
effort?=0A=
=0A=
Dean=0A=
T.=0A=
=0A=
_______________________________________________=0A=
<A =
removedlink__236aa0c6-7dd8-412a-9d8e-07d083bd654a__href=3D"mailto:fot@aut=
ox.team.net">[email-masked]</A>=0A=
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<A target=3D"_blank" =
removedlink__236aa0c6-7dd8-412a-9d8e-07d083bd654a__href=3D"http://www.fot=
-racing.com">http://www.fot-racing.com</A>=0A=
=0A=
Donate:=0A=
<A target=3D"_blank" =
removedlink__236aa0c6-7dd8-412a-9d8e-07d083bd654a__href=3D"http://www.tea=
m.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</A>=0A=
Archive: <A target=3D"_blank" =
removedlink__236aa0c6-7dd8-412a-9d8e-07d083bd654a__href=3D"http://www.tea=
m.net/archive">http://www.team.net/archive</A>=0A=
Forums:=0A=
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