Subject: Re: [Fot] FW: FW: TR4A front suspension.

From: Jerry Van Vlack via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 11:31:46 -0400

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Macel, I had a similar problem when I modified my TR4A suspension. I had =
fitted the TR6 lower inner 2 stud frame mounts and the back up plates =
for additional strength over the single stud original TR4A inner mounts. =
I needed to loosen the lower mounts to the frame to allow the upright to =
easily attach to the upper ball joint. Once I did that everything went =
together as it should and I then tightened the the lower mounts to the =
frame. There was enough movement in the frame holes which allowed the =
lower A- Arms to move and make the upright out of position. Get all of =
the parts together before you final tighten the lower inner frame =
mounts.=20

Of course having the trunnion properly sided is important too.

JVV

From: Marcel Van Mulders via Fot=20
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2015 10:33 AM
To: [email-masked]=20
Subject: [Fot] FW: FW: TR4A front suspension.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Van: Marcel Van Mulders [mailto:[email-masked]]=20
Verzonden: zondag 15 maart 2015 15:28
Aan: 'davehogye'
Onderwerp: RE: [Fot] FW: TR4A front suspension.

Quoting Dave : "... of course the trunnions are sided...". Unbelievable, =
but the left lower trunnion is mounted on the right side of the car and =
vice versa. I have worked on the front suspension during 5 evenings till =
01.00 am and still didn't see it, although these trunnions are marked RH =
and LH. I noticed it this morning when starting to fit adjustable upper =
inner fulcrum pins. When correctly fitting the lower outer trunnion =
bolt, only the part of the upright that is screwed in the trunnion is =
allowing a little movement , the upper ball joint could not be forced =
between the upper (original)wishbones. This is the case on both sides of =
the car and the upper ball joint is 1cm more to the front than the lower =
trunnion when the car is level(=3D a little negative caster). I'll =
report on this forum when I've swapped the trunnions and uprights next =
week.
Of course I don't want to blame anyone. Everyone does make mistakes and =
this TR4A of Bob Kramer is a very good car with many great features. I'm =
very pleased with it and I expect to run in the front.
Marcel.

van: davehogye [mailto:[email-masked]]=20
Verzonden: dinsdag 10 maart 2015 20:07
Aan: Marcel Van Mulders
Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] FW: TR4A front suspension.

RevingtonTR has adjustable upper, inner fulcrum pins, which allow camber =
adjustment, but also allow the upright to find a happy place without =
force.  I would think that if everything is within factory specs, the =
upright should align as long as you have the 3 degree trunnion.  Of =
course the 3 degree trunnions are sided.

The adjustable fulcrum pin is probably not allowed by your rule book.  I =
use them on my TR3 to get negative camber without modifying/shortening =
the upper arms.  These adjustable pins can be flipped depending on the =
ride height.  They also come with spacers that fit between the ball =
joint and the A-arms for further caster adjustment.

Dave H.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

From: "Marcel Van Mulders via Fot" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 11:13:06 AM
Subject: [Fot] FW:  TR4A front suspension.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Van: Marcel Van Mulders [mailto:[email-masked]]=20
Verzonden: dinsdag 10 maart 2015 19:04
Aan: 'Jack Wheeler'
Onderwerp: RE: [Fot] TR4A front suspension.

All the parts are TR-4A-TR6, so the trunnions are 3=B0 (all TR trunnions =
that have removable trunnion bolts are handed, trunnions with pressed in =
pins can be 0=B0 or 3=B0).
"...the lower trunnion should rotate around the bolt..." If I understand =
what you mean, I don't believe this is correct : the trunnion bolt is =
clamping the distance pieces (short pieces of steel tube that slide over =
the bolt and rotate in the outer wishbone bushings) onto the trunnion =
and hence the bolt, trunnion and distance pieces should rotate together =
and only the wishbones can rotate in respect to the bolt (and trunnion =
and distance pieces). I have assembled the suspension in this way, =
eliminating thus the play of the trunnion on the bolt and this is the =
reason I had to drill new holes , more to the rear, in order to get the =
upperr end of the uprights between the outer ends of the upper =
wishbones. All parts and also the chassis seem to be all right. Maybe I =
get it wrong anyway with the assembling of the suspension parts
Marcel.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Van: Jack Wheeler [mailto:[email-masked]]=20
Verzonden: zondag 8 maart 2015 23:40
Aan: Van Mulders Marcel
Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] TR4A front suspension.

Do you have the TR-4A uprights and trunions?  The TR-4A trunion is just =
the brass piece that fits in between the lower wishbone arms and a bolt =
slides through it, instead of the fulcrum pin (pressed into the =
trunion), as you would have had on your TR-3.  The lower trunion should =
rotate on the bolt, and the wishbone arm bushings.  There is a left and =
right hand, and when properly installed, you should have about 3 degrees =
of positive castor on both sides.  I raced a TR-4A for 25 years, so I =
know the suspension intimately!  Good luck.

Jack

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
From: Van Mulders Marcel via Fot <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]=20
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2015 5:35 PM
Subject: [Fot] TR4A front suspension.

In June 2014 I bought Bob Kramer's TR4A racecar after I crashed my TR3 =
at the Zandvoort circuit (The Netherlands). It's a great car and it will =
get better. Of my TR3, I only kept the engine and overdrive dogbox  =
Overhauling the front suspension, I found that the lower trunnion was =
moving on the bolt instead of the bushed lower wishbones : the distance =
pieces in the wishbones where shorter than original, so the trunnion was =
not clamped by these distance pieces when fastening the bolt. Correcting =
this, the upright has less play now, only a little in the trunnion, and =
this upright with balljoint can't be forced anymore between the outer =
ends of the upper wihbones, the balljoint is 1/2" too far to the rear. =
Turning the upper wishbones to the rear (by moving the fulcrum pin) =
isn't a good option, because binding will occur. I've drilled new holes =
for the brackets for the inner ends of the lower wishbones : the =
suspension is moving without any binding now but I don't know if I will =
leave it like that. I wonder if something is wrong with the uprights? =
(less than 3=B0 caster?) If I measure the caster, I find 2.2=B0 on both =
sides, but probably that isn't proving anything. The chassis is as new, =
no damage. Any idea's someone?
Another question : trying to get at zero bump steer, the best I get at =
by moving the steering rack is a J : the wheels are toeing in when =
lowered more than 3 cm below ride height (minimal to 5cm, then more and =
more toe in). Bending the steering arms to the outside, almost touching =
the brake disks now, has straightened the J a little.  Is it possible to =
eliminate the bump steer completely, or have we(TR4A-TR6) to accept some =
bump steer in the least important part of the suspension travel?
Marcel.

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<BODY dir=3Dltr>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>Macel, I had a similar problem when I modified my TR4A suspension. =
I had=20
fitted the TR6 lower inner 2 stud frame mounts and the back up plates =
for=20
additional strength over the single stud original TR4A inner mounts. I =
needed to=20
loosen the lower mounts to the frame to allow the upright to easily =
attach to=20
the upper ball joint. Once I did that everything went together as it =
should and=20
I then tightened the the lower mounts to the frame. There was enough =
movement in=20
the frame holes which allowed the lower A- Arms to move and make the =
upright out=20
of position. Get all of the parts together before you final tighten the =
lower=20
inner frame mounts. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Of course having the trunnion properly sided is important =
too.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>JVV</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; =
COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: =
none">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Marcel Van Mulders via Fot</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 15, 2015 10:33 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=[email-masked]=20
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> [Fot] FW: FW: TR4A front =
suspension.</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; =
COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: =
none">
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr lang=3Dnl class=3DOutlookMessageHeader align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><B>Van:</B> Marcel Van Mulders=20
[mailto:[email-masked]] <BR><B>Verzonden:</B> zondag 15 =
maart=20
2015 15:28<BR><B>Aan:</B> 'davehogye'<BR><B>Onderwerp:</B> RE: [Fot] FW: =
TR4A=20
front suspension.<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D240140614-15032015><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial>Quoting Dave : "... of course the trunnions are =
sided...".=20
Unbelievable, but the left lower trunnion is mounted on the right side =
of the=20
car and vice versa. I have worked on the front suspension during 5 =
evenings till=20
01.00 am and still didn't see it, although these trunnions are marked RH =
and LH.=20
I noticed it this morning when starting to fit adjustable upper inner =
fulcrum=20
pins. When correctly fitting the lower outer trunnion bolt, only the =
part of the=20
upright that is screwed in the trunnion is allowing a little movement , =
the=20
upper ball joint could not be forced between the upper =
(original)wishbones. This=20
is the case on both sides of the car and the upper ball joint is 1cm =
more to the=20
front than the lower trunnion when the car is level(=3D a little =
negative caster).=20
I'll report on this forum when I've swapped the trunnions and uprights =
next=20
week.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D240140614-15032015><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial>Of course I don't want to blame anyone. Everyone =
does make=20
mistakes and this TR4A of Bob Kramer is a very good car with many great=20
features. I'm very pleased with it and I expect to run in the=20
front.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D240140614-15032015><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial>Marcel.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D240140614-15032015><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D240140614-15032015><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial>v</FONT></SPAN><FONT size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><B>an:</B> davehogye=20
[mailto:[email-masked]] <BR><B>Verzonden:</B> dinsdag 10 maart 2015 =

20:07<BR><B>Aan:</B> Marcel Van Mulders<BR><B>Onderwerp:</B> Re: [Fot] =
FW: TR4A=20
front suspension.<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>RevingtonTR has adjustable upper, inner fulcrum pins, which allow =
camber=20
adjustment, but also allow the upright to find a happy place without=20
force.&nbsp; I would think that if everything is within factory specs, =
the=20
upright should align as long as you have the 3 degree trunnion.&nbsp; Of =
course=20
the 3 degree trunnions are sided.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>The adjustable fulcrum pin is probably not allowed by your rule =
book.&nbsp;=20
I use them on my TR3 to get negative camber without modifying/shortening =
the=20
upper arms.&nbsp; These adjustable pins can be flipped depending on the =
ride=20
height.&nbsp; They also come with spacers that fit between the ball =
joint and=20
the A-arms for further caster adjustment.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Dave H.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<HR id=3Dzwchr>

<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; =
COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: =
none"><B>From:=20
</B>"Marcel Van Mulders via Fot" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<BR><B>To:=20
</B>[email-masked]<BR><B>Sent: </B>Tuesday, March 10, 2015 11:13:06=20
AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>[Fot] FW:&nbsp; TR4A front suspension.<BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr lang=3Dnl class=3DOutlookMessageHeader align=3Dleft>
<HR>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; FONT-SIZE: small"=20
data-mce-style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: small;" =
face=3D"Tahoma"=20
size=3D"2"><B>Van:</B> Marcel Van Mulders =
[mailto:[email-masked]]=20
<BR><B>Verzonden:</B> dinsdag 10 maart 2015 19:04<BR><B>Aan:</B> 'Jack=20
Wheeler'<BR><B>Onderwerp:</B> RE: [Fot] TR4A front=20
suspension.<BR></SPAN><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D455354617-10032015><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: #0000ff; FONT-SIZE: small"=20
data-mce-style=3D"color: #0000ff; font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" =

face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#0000ff">All the parts are TR-4A-TR6, =
so the=20
trunnions are 3=B0 (all TR trunnions that have removable trunnion bolts =
are=20
handed, trunnions with pressed in pins can be 0=B0 or =
3=B0).</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D455354617-10032015><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: #0000ff; FONT-SIZE: small"=20
data-mce-style=3D"color: #0000ff; font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" =

face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#0000ff">"...the lower trunnion =
should rotate=20
around the bolt..." If I understand what you mean, I don't believe this =
is=20
correct : the trunnion bolt is clamping the distance pieces (short =
pieces of=20
steel tube that slide over the bolt and rotate in the outer wishbone =
bushings)=20
onto the trunnion and hence the bolt, trunnion and distance pieces =
should rotate=20
together and only the wishbones can rotate in respect to the bolt (and =
trunnion=20
and distance pieces). I have assembled the suspension in this way, =
eliminating=20
thus the play of the trunnion on the bolt and this is the reason I had =
to drill=20
new holes , more to the rear, in order to get the upperr end of the =
uprights=20
between the outer ends of the upper wishbones. All parts and also the =
chassis=20
seem to be all right. Maybe I get it wrong anyway with the assembling of =
the=20
suspension parts</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D455354617-10032015><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: #0000ff; FONT-SIZE: small"=20
data-mce-style=3D"color: #0000ff; font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" =

face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#0000ff">Marcel.</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D455354617-10032015><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: #0000ff; FONT-SIZE: small"=20
data-mce-style=3D"color: #0000ff; font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" =

face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#0000ff"></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D455354617-10032015><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: #0000ff; FONT-SIZE: small"=20
data-mce-style=3D"color: #0000ff; font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" =

face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" =
color=3D"#0000ff"></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: #0000ff; FONT-SIZE: small"=20
data-mce-style=3D"color: #0000ff; font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" =

face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#0000ff"></SPAN><BR>
<DIV dir=3Dltr lang=3Dnl class=3DOutlookMessageHeader align=3Dleft>
<HR>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; FONT-SIZE: small"=20
data-mce-style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: small;" =
face=3D"Tahoma"=20
size=3D"2"><B>Van:</B> Jack Wheeler [mailto:[email-masked]]=20
<BR><B>Verzonden:</B> zondag 8 maart 2015 23:40<BR><B>Aan:</B> Van =
Mulders=20
Marcel<BR><B>Onderwerp:</B> Re: [Fot] TR4A front=20
suspension.<BR></SPAN><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, helvetica =
neue, helvetica, arial, lucida grande, sans-serif; COLOR: #000; =
FONT-SIZE: 16px">
<DIV dir=3Dltr id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10469>Do you have the =
TR-4A uprights=20
and trunions?&nbsp; The TR-4A trunion is just the brass piece that fits =
in=20
between the lower wishbone arms and a bolt slides through it, instead of =
the=20
fulcrum pin (pressed into the trunion), as you would have had on your=20
TR-3.&nbsp; The lower trunion should rotate on the bolt, and the =
wishbone arm=20
bushings.&nbsp; There is a left and right hand, and when properly =
installed, you=20
should have about 3 degrees of positive castor on both sides.&nbsp; I =
raced a=20
TR-4A for 25 years, so I know the suspension intimately!&nbsp; Good =
luck.</DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10468>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10467>Jack<BR></DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10363><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, helvetica neue, helvetica, arial, =
lucida grande, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px"=20
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10335>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, helvetica neue, helvetica, arial, =
lucida grande, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px"=20
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10334>
<DIV dir=3Dltr id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10333>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-SIZE: small"=20
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10466=20
data-mce-style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" face=3D"Arial"=20
size=3D"2"><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Van =
Mulders Marcel=20
via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> [email-masked] =
<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, March 8, 2015 5:35=20
PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [Fot] =
TR4A front=20
suspension.<BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10340 class=3Dy_msg_container>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyiv2435760872>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10339>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10338><SPAN=20
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10337 =
class=3Dyiv2435760872733024020-08032015><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-SIZE: small" =
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10336=20
data-mce-style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" face=3D"Arial" =
size=3D"2">In=20
June 2014 I bought Bob Kramer's TR4A racecar after I crashed my TR3 at =
the=20
Zandvoort circuit (The Netherlands). It's a great car and it will get =
better. Of=20
my TR3, I only kept the engine and overdrive dogbox&nbsp; Overhauling =
the front=20
suspension, I found that the lower trunnion was moving on the bolt =
instead of=20
the bushed lower wishbones : the distance pieces in the wishbones where =
shorter=20
than original, so the trunnion was not clamped by these distance pieces =
when=20
fastening the bolt. Correcting this, the upright has less play now, only =
a=20
little in the trunnion, and this upright with balljoint can't be forced =
anymore=20
between the outer ends of the upper wihbones, the balljoint is 1/2" too =
far to=20
the rear. Turning the upper wishbones to the rear (by moving the fulcrum =
pin)=20
isn't a good option, because binding will occur. I've drilled new holes =
for the=20
brackets for the inner ends of the lower wishbones : the suspension is =
moving=20
without any binding now but I don't know if I will leave it like that. I =
wonder=20
if something is wrong with the uprights? (less than 3=B0 caster?) If I =
measure the=20
caster, I find 2.2=B0 on both sides, but probably that isn't proving =
anything. The=20
chassis is as new, no damage. Any idea's someone?</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10343><SPAN=20
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10342 =
class=3Dyiv2435760872733024020-08032015><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-SIZE: small" =
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10341=20
data-mce-style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" face=3D"Arial"=20
size=3D"2">Another question : trying to get at zero bump steer, the best =
I get at=20
by moving the steering rack is a J : the wheels are toeing in when =
lowered more=20
than 3 cm below ride height (minimal to 5cm, then more and more toe in). =
Bending=20
the steering arms to the outside, almost touching the brake disks now, =
has=20
straightened the J a little.&nbsp; Is it possible to eliminate the bump =
steer=20
completely, or have we(TR4A-TR6) to accept some bump steer in the least=20
important part of the suspension travel?</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10407><SPAN=20
class=3Dyiv2435760872733024020-08032015><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-SIZE: small"=20
data-mce-style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" face=3D"Arial"=20
size=3D"2">Marcel.</SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><=
/DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

--===============4060237578739898250==--

---

From: Bill Babcock via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 08:36:31 -1000

--===============4596960377963670556==

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	charset=windows-1252

It happens. One year after spending a bunch of time fiddling with =
Peyote=92s suspension, adding TR4 bits, adjustable camber, and =
eliminating bump steer I went on the track for a test and tune day, and =
the car was horrible. Darting everywhere. Took it back to the shop and =
discovered I had everything reversed side-to-side, and so had the TR4 =
caster backwards. What happened is that after I got everything the way I =
wanted it, I took it all apart and painted the parts, then put them on =
bassackwards. Sheesh.=20

Bill

> On Mar 15, 2015, at 4:33 AM, Marcel Van Mulders via Fot =
<[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Quoting Dave : "... of course the trunnions are sided...". =
Unbelievable, but the left lower trunnion is mounted on the right side =
of the car and vice versa. I have worked on the front suspension during =
5 evenings till 01.00 am and still didn't see it, although these =
trunnions are marked RH and LH. I noticed it this morning when starting =
to fit adjustable upper inner fulcrum pins. When correctly fitting the =
lower outer trunnion bolt, only the part of the upright that is screwed =
in the trunnion is allowing a little movement , the upper ball joint =
could not be forced between the upper (original)wishbones. This is the =
case on both sides of the car and the upper ball joint is 1cm more to =
the front than the lower trunnion when the car is level(=3D a little =
negative caster). I'll report on this forum when I've swapped the =
trunnions and uprights next week.
> Of course I don't want to blame anyone. Everyone does make mistakes =
and this TR4A of Bob Kramer is a very good car with many great features. =
I'm very pleased with it and I expect to run in the front.
> =20
>=20
> RevingtonTR has adjustable upper, inner fulcrum pins, which allow =
camber adjustment, but also allow the upright to find a happy place =
without force.  I would think that if everything is within factory =
specs, the upright should align as long as you have the 3 degree =
trunnion.  Of course the 3 degree trunnions are sided.
> The adjustable fulcrum pin is probably not allowed by your rule book.  =
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> All the parts are TR-4A-TR6, so the trunnions are 3=B0 (all TR =
trunnions that have removable trunnion bolts are handed, trunnions with =
pressed in pins can be 0=B0 or 3=B0).
> "...the lower trunnion should rotate around the bolt..." If I =
understand what you mean, I don't believe this is correct : the trunnion =
bolt is clamping the distance pieces (short pieces of steel tube that =
slide over the bolt and rotate in the outer wishbone bushings) onto the =
trunnion and hence the bolt, trunnion and distance pieces should rotate =
together and only the wishbones can rotate in respect to the bolt (and =
trunnion and distance pieces). I have assembled the suspension in this =
way, eliminating thus the play of the trunnion on the bolt and this is =
the reason I had to drill new holes , more to the rear, in order to get =
the upperr end of the uprights between the outer ends of the upper =
wishbones. All parts and also the chassis seem to be all right. Maybe I =
get it wrong anyway with the assembling of the suspension parts
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Do you have the TR-4A uprights and trunions?  The TR-4A trunion is =
just the brass piece that fits in between the lower wishbone arms and a =
bolt slides through it, instead of the fulcrum pin (pressed into the =
trunion), as you would have had on your TR-3.  The lower trunion should =
rotate on the bolt, and the wishbone arm bushings.  There is a left and =
right hand, and when properly installed, you should have about 3 degrees =
of positive castor on both sides.  I raced a TR-4A for 25 years, so I =
know the suspension intimately!  Good luck.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =
<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive <http://www.team.net/archive>
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums <http://www.team.net/forums>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked] =
<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]>
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
>=20
>=20

Bill Babcock
[email-masked]
Editor: Ponostyle
Celebrating Water

Editor: Xtreme Geezer
Fitness and Fun After Forty
503.936.7660
http://www.PonoStyle.com
http://www.Xgeez.com

--Apple-Mail=_8C6EB84D-9878-4547-8E1F-B38A5EF9707A
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">It happens. One year after spending a bunch of time fiddling =
with Peyote=92s suspension, adding TR4 bits, adjustable camber, and =
eliminating bump steer I went on the track for a test and tune day, and =
the car was horrible. Darting everywhere. Took it back to the shop and =
discovered I had everything reversed side-to-side, and so had the TR4 =
caster backwards. What happened is that after I got everything the way I =
wanted it, I took it all apart and painted the parts, then put them on =
bassackwards. Sheesh.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Bill</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar 15, 2015, at 4:33 AM, =
Marcel Van Mulders via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">

<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" class=3D"">
<meta name=3D"GENERATOR" content=3D"MSHTML 11.00.9600.17690" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><br class=3D"">
<div lang=3D"nl" class=3D"OutlookMessageHeader" dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" class=3D"">
<font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Van:</b> =
Marcel Van Mulders=20
[<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">mailto:[email-masked]</a>] <br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Verzonden:</b> zondag 15 maart=20
2015 15:28<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Aan:</b> 'davehogye'<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Onderwerp:</b> RE: [Fot] FW: TR4A=20
front suspension.<br class=3D""></font><br class=3D""></div>
<div class=3D""></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"240140614-15032015"><font color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Arial" class=3D"">Quoting Dave : "... of course the trunnions =
are sided...".=20
Unbelievable, but the left lower trunnion is mounted on the right side =
of the=20
car and vice versa. I have worked on the front suspension during 5 =
evenings till=20
01.00 am and still&nbsp;didn't see it, although these trunnions are =
marked RH=20
and LH. I noticed it this morning when starting to&nbsp;fit adjustable =
upper=20
inner fulcrum pins. When correctly fitting the lower outer trunnion =
bolt, only=20
the part of the upright that is screwed in the trunnion is allowing a=20
little&nbsp;movement&nbsp;, the upper ball joint could not be forced =
between the=20
upper (original)wishbones. This is the case on both sides of the car and =
the=20
upper ball joint is 1cm more to the front than the lower trunnion when =
the car=20
is level(=3D a little negative caster). I'll report on this forum when =
I've=20
swapped the trunnions and uprights next week.</font></span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"240140614-15032015"><font color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Arial" class=3D"">Of course I don't want to blame anyone. =
Everyone does make=20
mistakes and this TR4A of Bob Kramer is a very good car with many great=20=

features. I'm very pleased with it and I expect to run in the=20
front.</font></span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"240140614-15032015"><font color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Arial" class=3D"">Marcel.</font></span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"240140614-15032015"><font color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Arial" class=3D""></font></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"240140614-15032015"><font color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Arial" class=3D"">v</font></span><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">an:</b> davehogye=20
[<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">mailto:[email-masked]</a>] <br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Verzonden:</b> dinsdag 10 maart 2015=20
20:07<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Aan:</b> Marcel Van Mulders<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Onderwerp:</b> Re: [Fot] FW: TR4A=20
front suspension.<br class=3D""></font><br class=3D""></div>
<div class=3D""></div>
<div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">RevingtonTR has adjustable upper, inner fulcrum pins, =
which allow camber=20
adjustment, but also allow the upright to find a happy place without =
force.=20
&nbsp;I would think that if everything is within factory specs, the =
upright=20
should align as long as you have the 3 degree trunnion. &nbsp;Of course =
the 3=20
degree trunnions are sided.<br class=3D""></div>
<div class=3D"">The adjustable fulcrum pin is probably not allowed by =
your rule book.=20
&nbsp;I use them on my TR3 to get negative camber without =
modifying/shortening=20
the upper arms. &nbsp;These adjustable pins can be flipped depending on =
the ride=20
height. &nbsp;They also come with spacers that fit between the ball =
joint and=20
the A-arms for further caster adjustment.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>
<div class=3D"">Dave H.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>
<hr id=3D"zwchr" class=3D"">

<div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; text-decoration: none; font-family: =
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:=20
</b>"Marcel Van Mulders via Fot" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=
 class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:=20=

</b><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent: =
</b>Tuesday, March 10, 2015 11:13:06=20
AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: </b>[Fot] FW: &nbsp;TR4A front =
suspension.<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><br class=3D"">
<div lang=3D"nl" class=3D"OutlookMessageHeader" dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left">
<hr class=3D"">
<span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma" size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Tahoma" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: =
small;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Van:</b> Marcel Van=20
Mulders [mailto:[email-masked]] <br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Verzonden:</b> dinsdag 10=20
maart 2015 19:04<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Aan:</b> 'Jack Wheeler'<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Onderwerp:</b> RE: [Fot]=20
TR4A front suspension.<br class=3D""></span><br class=3D""></div>
<div class=3D""></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"455354617-10032015"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: small; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #0000ff" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" =
data-mce-style=3D"color: #0000ff; font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" =
class=3D"">All the parts are TR-4A-TR6, so the trunnions are 3=B0 (all =
TR=20
trunnions that have&nbsp;removable trunnion bolts are handed, trunnions =
with=20
pressed in pins can be 0=B0 or 3=B0).</span></span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"455354617-10032015"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: small; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #0000ff" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" =
data-mce-style=3D"color: #0000ff; font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" =
class=3D"">"...the lower trunnion should rotate around the bolt..." If I=20=

understand what you mean, I don't believe this is correct : the trunnion =
bolt is=20
clamping the distance pieces (short pieces of steel tube that slide over =
the=20
bolt and rotate in the outer&nbsp;wishbone bushings) onto the trunnion =
and hence=20
the bolt, trunnion and distance pieces should rotate together and only =
the=20
wishbones can rotate in respect to the bolt (and trunnion and distance =
pieces).=20
I have assembled the suspension in this way, eliminating thus the play =
of the=20
trunnion on the bolt and this is the reason I had to drill new holes , =
more to=20
the rear, in order to get the upperr end of the uprights between the =
outer ends=20
of the upper wishbones. All parts and also the chassis seem to be all =
right.=20
Maybe I get it wrong anyway with the assembling of the suspension=20
parts</span></span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"455354617-10032015"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: small; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #0000ff" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" =
data-mce-style=3D"color: #0000ff; font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" =
class=3D"">Marcel.</span></span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"455354617-10032015"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: small; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #0000ff" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" =
data-mce-style=3D"color: #0000ff; font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" =
class=3D""></span></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"455354617-10032015"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: small; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #0000ff" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" =
data-mce-style=3D"color: #0000ff; font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" =
class=3D""></span></span>&nbsp;</div><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: small; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #0000ff" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" =
data-mce-style=3D"color: #0000ff; font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" =
class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<div lang=3D"nl" class=3D"OutlookMessageHeader" dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left">
<hr class=3D"">
<span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma" size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Tahoma" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: =
small;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Van:</b> Jack Wheeler=20
[mailto:[email-masked]] <br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Verzonden:</b> zondag 8 maart 2015=20
23:40<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Aan:</b> Van Mulders Marcel<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Onderwerp:</b> Re: [Fot] TR4A=20
front suspension.<br class=3D""></span><br class=3D""></div>
<div class=3D""></div>
<div style=3D"font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica =
Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10469" dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Do =
you have the TR-4A uprights=20
and trunions?&nbsp; The TR-4A trunion is just the brass piece that fits =
in=20
between the lower wishbone arms and a bolt slides through it, instead of =
the=20
fulcrum pin (pressed into the trunion), as you would have had on your=20
TR-3.&nbsp; The lower trunion should rotate on the bolt, and the =
wishbone arm=20
bushings.&nbsp; There is a left and right hand, and when properly =
installed, you=20
should have about 3 degrees of positive castor on both sides.&nbsp; I =
raced a=20
TR-4A for 25 years, so I know the suspension intimately!&nbsp; Good =
luck.</div>
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10468" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10467" dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Jack<br class=3D""></div>
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10363" class=3D""><span =
class=3D""></span></div><br class=3D"">
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10335" style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 16px; =
FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida =
Grande, sans-serif" class=3D"">
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10334" style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 16px; =
FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida =
Grande, sans-serif" class=3D"">
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10333" dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">
<hr size=3D"1" class=3D"">
<span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10466" style=3D"FONT-SIZE: small; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" =
data-mce-style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold" class=3D"">From:</span></b> =
Van Mulders Marcel via Fot=20
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold" class=3D"">To:</span></b>=20
[email-masked] <br class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold" class=3D"">Sent:</span></b>=20
Sunday, March 8, 2015 5:35 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold" class=3D"">Subject:</span></b> [Fot] TR4A =
front=20
suspension.<br class=3D""></span></div>
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10340" class=3D"y_msg_container"><br=
 class=3D"">
<div id=3D"yiv2435760872" class=3D"">
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10339" class=3D"">
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10338" class=3D""><span =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10337" =
class=3D"yiv2435760872733024020-08032015"><span =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10336" style=3D"FONT-SIZE: small; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" =
data-mce-style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" class=3D"">In=20=

June&nbsp;2014 I bought Bob Kramer's TR4A racecar after I crashed my TR3 =
at the=20
Zandvoort circuit (The Netherlands). It's a great car and it will get=20
better.&nbsp;Of my TR3,&nbsp;I&nbsp;only kept the engine and overdrive=20=

dogbox&nbsp; Overhauling the front suspension, I found that the lower =
trunnion=20
was moving on the bolt instead of the bushed lower wishbones : the =
distance=20
pieces&nbsp;in the wishbones where shorter than original, so the =
trunnion was=20
not clamped by these distance pieces&nbsp;when fastening the bolt. =
Correcting=20
this, the upright has less play now, only a little in the =
trunnion,&nbsp;and=20
this upright with balljoint can't be forced anymore between the outer =
ends of=20
the upper wihbones, the balljoint is 1/2" too far to the =
rear.&nbsp;Turning the=20
upper wishbones to the rear (by moving the fulcrum pin)&nbsp;isn't a =
good=20
option, because binding will occur. I've drilled new holes for the =
brackets for=20
the inner ends of the lower wishbones : the suspension is moving without =
any=20
binding now but I don't know&nbsp;if I will leave it like that.&nbsp;I =
wonder if=20
something is wrong with the uprights? (less than&nbsp;3=B0 caster?) If I =
measure=20
the caster, I find 2.2=B0 on both sides, but probably&nbsp;that isn't =
proving=20
anything. The chassis is as new, no damage. Any idea's=20
someone?</span></span></div>
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10343" class=3D""><span =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10342" =
class=3D"yiv2435760872733024020-08032015"><span =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1425815565626_10341" style=3D"FONT-SIZE: small; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" =
data-mce-style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: small;" =
class=3D"">Another question : trying=20
to get at zero bump steer, the best I&nbsp;get at by moving the steering=20=

rack&nbsp;is a J : the wheels are&nbsp;toeing in when lowered more than =
3 cm=20
below ride height (minimal to 5cm, then more and more toe in). Bending =
the=20
steering arms to the outside, almost touching the brake disks now, has=20=

straightened the J a little.&nbsp; Is it possible to eliminate the bump =
steer=20
completely, or&nbsp;have we(TR4A-TR6)&nbsp;to accept some bump steer in =
the=20
least important part of the suspension travel?</span></span></div>
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