Subject: [Fot] dimensioned drawing for stock TR4 exhaust valve needed

From: Tim Murphy via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:00:24 -0600

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I am having new exhaust valves made with Manley XH-428 stainless steel, a
super stainless.  It is good for exhaust gas temperatures up to 1350
degrees.  On tearing the engine down for a rebuild we found that the exhaust
valves were severely "dished" on the seats, we think from the high heat.
The valves were only contacting the seat in a very narrow (about 0.020) line
at the end of the seat width.  We did have good power but the compression
test and especially the leak down test showed there to be some problem.  At
WOT we run between 1200 to 1300 degrees.  I have to supply Manley with the
dimensions and angle of the valves I need.  It is a bit difficult to measure
accurately the back cut angle and width I'm not sure if the corners should
be sharp, broken of have a corner radius.

The workshop Manual shows a seat angle of 45 degrees and a seat width of
0.060 with a head diameter of 1.438 inches (36.51 mm).  I don't know what
the margin should be.  I also have to give them the groove type, height,
depth and radius for the keepers.

Any help and/or suggestions for what would make a better racing valve would
be appreciated.  Note: Manley has pre-made "blanks" out of various super
stainless already made up. This makes the cost of the valves realistic.  I
found one part number that can be make into a TR4 exhaust valve.

Tim and Ryan Murphy

1961 TR4 #317 BRG

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>I am =
having new exhaust valves made with Manley XH-428 stainless steel, a =
super stainless.&nbsp; It is good for exhaust gas temperatures up to =
1350 degrees.&nbsp; On tearing the engine down for a rebuild we found =
that the exhaust valves were severely &#8220;dished&#8221; on the seats, =
we think from the high heat.&nbsp; The valves were only contacting the =
seat in a very narrow (about 0.020) line at the end of the seat =
width.&nbsp; We did have good power but the compression test and =
especially the leak down test showed there to be some problem.&nbsp; At =
WOT we run between 1200 to 1300 degrees.&nbsp; I have to supply Manley =
with the dimensions and angle of the valves I need.&nbsp; It is a bit =
difficult to measure accurately the back cut angle and width I&#8217;m =
not sure if the corners should be sharp, broken of have a corner =
radius.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The workshop Manual shows a seat angle of 45 degrees =
and a seat width of 0.060 with a head diameter of 1.438 inches (36.51 =
mm).&nbsp; I don&#8217;t know what the margin should be.&nbsp; I also =
have to give them the groove type, height, depth and radius for the =
keepers.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Any help and/or suggestions for what would make a =
better racing valve would be appreciated.&nbsp; Note: Manley has =
pre-made &#8220;blanks&#8221; out of various super stainless already =
made up. This makes the cost of the valves realistic. &nbsp;I found one =
part number that can be make into a TR4 exhaust valve.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Tim and Ryan =
Murphy<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>1961 TR4 #317 =
BRG<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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From: Duncan Charlton via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 13:47:22 -0600

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Tim,

I can pass on the suggestions I found in David Vizard's books. 0.080" or 
so on the exhaust seat width will better carry away heat. Heat rejection 
coating for the valve heads means the intake mixture is pre-heated to a 
lesser degree and the exhaust has less heat to hand off to the guide and 
valve seat.  You could use a heat rejection coating also on the piston 
crowns, the combustion chambers and exhaust ports as long as you're in 
there.

Leave a sharpish edge on the outer edge (combustion chamber side) of the 
intake valve to give some slight anti-reversion effect, but round it off 
on the exhaust valve.  Exhaust valve can be more tulip-shaped but intake 
ought to have a fairly flat back cut angle since at high lift the nearly 
90 degree turn from the intake manifold will see flow passing somewhat 
laterally across the back of the valve.  If you can get the back angle 
to 20 degrees that ought to improve flow.

Had you considered 30 degree seats?  Flow at low lift is greater, like 
having substantially larger valves, without much power penalty unless 
you have a huge amount of lift.  The tricky part is maintaining adequate 
sealing -- dry lube coating of the seat would help, as would an extra 10 
lbs seat pressure.  Vizard also found that a "conformance groove" cut 
(explained in his books -- if you've seen Rimflo valves, they have a 
groove that is similar) around the perimeter (on the face) allows the 
valve head to flex just enough to seat better.

Duncan

On 2/16/15 7:00 PM, Tim Murphy via Fot wrote:
>
> I am having new exhaust valves made with Manley XH-428 stainless 
> steel, a super stainless.  It is good for exhaust gas temperatures up 
> to 1350 degrees.  On tearing the engine down for a rebuild we found 
> that the exhaust valves were severely “dished” on the seats, we think 
> from the high heat.  The valves were only contacting the seat in a 
> very narrow (about 0.020) line at the end of the seat width.  We did 
> have good power but the compression test and especially the leak down 
> test showed there to be some problem.  At WOT we run between 1200 to 
> 1300 degrees.  I have to supply Manley with the dimensions and angle 
> of the valves I need.  It is a bit difficult to measure accurately the 
> back cut angle and width I’m not sure if the corners should be sharp, 
> broken of have a corner radius.
>
> The workshop Manual shows a seat angle of 45 degrees and a seat width 
> of 0.060 with a head diameter of 1.438 inches (36.51 mm).  I don’t 
> know what the margin should be.  I also have to give them the groove 
> type, height, depth and radius for the keepers.
>
> Any help and/or suggestions for what would make a better racing valve 
> would be appreciated.  Note: Manley has pre-made “blanks” out of 
> various super stainless already made up. This makes the cost of the 
> valves realistic.  I found one part number that can be make into a TR4 
> exhaust valve.
>
> Tim and Ryan Murphy
>
> 1961 TR4 #317 BRG
>
>
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
>
>

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    Tim,<br>
    <br>
    I can pass on the suggestions I found in David Vizard's books.  
    0.080" or so on the exhaust seat width will better carry away heat. 
    Heat rejection coating for the valve heads means the intake mixture
    is pre-heated to a lesser degree and the exhaust has less heat to
    hand off to the guide and valve seat.  You could use a heat
    rejection coating also on the piston crowns, the combustion chambers
    and exhaust ports as long as you're in there.<br>
    <br>
    Leave a sharpish edge on the outer edge (combustion chamber side) of
    the intake valve to give some slight anti-reversion effect, but
    round it off on the exhaust valve.  Exhaust valve can be more
    tulip-shaped but intake ought to have a fairly flat back cut angle
    since at high lift the nearly 90 degree turn from the intake
    manifold will see flow passing somewhat laterally across the back of
    the valve.  If you can get the back angle to 20 degrees that ought
    to improve flow.<br>
    <br>
    Had you considered 30 degree seats?  Flow at low lift is greater,
    like having substantially larger valves, without much power penalty
    unless you have a huge amount of lift.  The tricky part is
    maintaining adequate sealing -- dry lube coating of the seat would
    help, as would an extra 10 lbs seat pressure.  Vizard also found
    that a "conformance groove" cut (explained in his books -- if you've
    seen Rimflo valves, they have a groove that is similar) around the
    perimeter (on the face) allows the valve head to flex just enough to
    seat better. <br>
    <br>
    Duncan<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/16/15 7:00 PM, Tim Murphy via Fot
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal">I am having new exhaust valves made with
          Manley XH-428 stainless steel, a super stainless.  It is good
          for exhaust gas temperatures up to 1350 degrees.  On tearing
          the engine down for a rebuild we found that the exhaust valves
          were severely “dished” on the seats, we think from the high
          heat.  The valves were only contacting the seat in a very
          narrow (about 0.020) line at the end of the seat width.  We
          did have good power but the compression test and especially
          the leak down test showed there to be some problem.  At WOT we
          run between 1200 to 1300 degrees.  I have to supply Manley
          with the dimensions and angle of the valves I need.  It is a
          bit difficult to measure accurately the back cut angle and
          width I’m not sure if the corners should be sharp, broken of
          have a corner radius.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">The workshop Manual shows a seat angle of
          45 degrees and a seat width of 0.060 with a head diameter of
          1.438 inches (36.51 mm).  I don’t know what the margin should
          be.  I also have to give them the groove type, height, depth
          and radius for the keepers.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Any help and/or suggestions for what would
          make a better racing valve would be appreciated.  Note: Manley
          has pre-made “blanks” out of various super stainless already
          made up. This makes the cost of the valves realistic.  I found
          one part number that can be make into a TR4 exhaust valve.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Tim and Ryan Murphy<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">1961 TR4 #317 BRG<o:p></o:p></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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