Subject: Re: [Fot] Small Bore Racers

From: "Craig Wensley" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 09:37:17 -0400

Marty that's a dam good question. I thank there are 2 or 3 sprites and
midgets in my area and maybe one bugeye.
They didn't turn to rust just too well maintained. Are they all 1275 now
with the new rules?
Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: Fot [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of marty
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2014 9:14 AM
To: FOT
Subject: [Fot] Small Bore Racers

Just thinkinb&  back in the 90bs in my neck of the woods  there use to be
full grids of Sprites and Midgets racing.  I cannot remember the last time I
saw a Bugeye on track. Seemed like they were coming out of the woodwork. I
hardly ever see them any more. At Mid-Ohio last weekend there were two
midgets, that was it.  Where the heck did they all disappear to?

Marty

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From: "Clark W. Nicholls" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 09:38:45 -0400

I suspect it is not economical racing anymore. With the SCCA Miatas in great
numbers in 5 or 6 classes which you can run in multiple classes at the same
event by simply changing tires... Every now and again we see a bugeye at a
vintage event. John Travers for instance... He's been racing them since they
were at the showroom, possibly! Spridgets run vintage too, VRG for instance.
Sadly some of those drivers are like Kamikazes to the older cars. Search
YouTube for "Filangeri yikes".

Clark
Clark W. Nicholls
1974 Spitfire (FM14571U) 
www.botchagaloop.net for old racing photos

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From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 10:00:16 -0400 (EDT)

Just a few observations based on my involvement in Brit cars & Club racing for
decades, not in any particular order-
1- economy, small-bore Brit car racers are generally on the lower steps of the
economic ladder.
2- used parts availability, the junkyard spares supply is about dried up.
3- cost of quality race parts, what might be OK $$ for E-type or porker 911
racers is out of sight for the average little Brit car budget.
4- maintenance demands & requirements of Brit iron vs jap, no explanation
necessary, there is no comparison..
5- the cost to be competitive. Racing is racing, the nature of it is to do
improvements necessary to win races. As the rules loosen up, more development
& $$ is necessary to keep up, and not everyone has the $$ to do so.
6- age group. Those of us who can directly relate to these cars, and grew up
with them, are getting old... and the younger guys, and gals, are naturally
more into the modern stuff they grew up with.

 Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: marty <[email-masked]>
To: FOT <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sat, Jul 5, 2014 9:22 am
Subject: [Fot] Small Bore Racers

Just thinkinb&  back in the 90bs in my neck of the woods  there use to be full
grids of Sprites and Midgets racing.  I cannot remember the last time I saw a
Bugeye on track. Seemed like they were coming out of the woodwork. I hardly
ever
see them any more. At Mid-Ohio last weekend there were two midgets, that was
it.
Where the heck did they all disappear to?

Marty

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---

From: "Terry Stetler" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 10:55:32 -0400

As has been said, the Miata is what's needed to win in SCCA, and that is the
way SCCA wants it.

The Club cannot make money from companies that no longer exist. (Standard
Triumph, BMC, BLMC, JRT).

Like all automotive competition endeavours, new, young, competitors are needed
to keep the membership roles full and also the grids.

Younger members want to drive modern, lower cost/maintenance cars.  Fiddling
with grenade motor Frog Eye Sprites and Spitfires is not in their play book.

They want a car they can flog all season and concentrate on driving it, not
rebuilding it every other race to be competitive at the National level.

Which bring us to the other issue with the cars that we like.   Spares.

There is not an infinite number of usable engine blocks out there for any of
the cars we love.  Ask anyone competing with a an FWB Climax engined car.

While certainly there are many more Spits, Sprites, MGBs and TRs, the number
of parts gets smaller every year.  This makes them more expensive.

There is no magic to this equation.

Also look at it from the vintage racer's perspective.   To build a front of
the grid Spitfire will cost every bit as much as a TR3 through 6 car.

Most guys will choose the faster car.

It's human nature.

Terry Stetler

---

From: Bruce Lapierre <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 13:02:49 -0400 (EDT)

Great dissertation - sad but true.  My TR2 is still a great street ride

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Stetler <[email-masked]>
To: FOT <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sat, Jul 5, 2014 10:55 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] Small Bore Racers

Like all automotive competition endeavours, new, young, competitors are
needed
to keep the membership roles full and also the grids.

It's human nature.

Terry Stetler

---

From: "Joe Curry" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 11:24:08 -0700

You said "CLUB".  SCCA hasn't been a club since corporate interests took
over in the early 2000's.  Their interests are only in making money.  If
that means eliminating some cars as they pare down classes, so be it.  This
applies both to road racing as well as autocross.  That is precisely why I
stopped competing in SCCA sanctioned events in 2004.

Joe C. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Fot [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Terry Stetler
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2014 7:56 AM
To: FOT
Subject: Re: [Fot] Small Bore Racers

It's human nature.

Terry Stetler

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
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From: "Richard Taylor" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 14:49:11 -0400

Terry,

Very nicely thought-out analysis.

Reality so unvarnished is greatly appreciated and should never be
denigrated. And your argument is unassailable until it gets to the
conclusion of choice of vehicle.

I submit that for many of us, it's still quite agreeable to enjoy the
nostalgia-coated vintage-myth of old sports car racing. 

I also question the premise that most of us would trade our hoary Limey-iron
for a faster, more dependable, cheaper, rice burners that can't even mark
their own damn parking spot. If it's all about speed and derring-do,
skydiving is still a cheaper alternative.

Richard Taylor
TR-4  #196

-----Original Message-----
From: Fot [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Terry Stetler
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2014 10:56 AM
To: FOT
Subject: Re: [Fot] Small Bore Racers

Like all automotive competition endeavours, new, young, competitors are
needed to keep the membership roles full and also the grids.

It's human nature.

Terry Stetler

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
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From: "J. Wagner" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 12:22:28 -0700

Richard... I think he was speaking of the next generation...  What interests
them.

Let's face it, there aren't a hell of a lot of young folk, say born in the
80's or 90's, attending Triumph car club meetings... And I don't know about
other parts of the country... But driving a TR4A in the late 70's and 80's
drew interest wherever I went...  Now I could be filling up at a gas station
and two buses of teens going on an outing, stopping to raid the convenience
store and hit the restrooms, wouldn't even give my car a second look, yet
alone ask me about it.

They're not interested.

Now let's talk about vintage versus newish...  There aren't machine shops
everywhere you look anymore and the prices for work have gone up
astronomically... Simple supply and demand theory!   Just like the supply and
demand issues hitting the used parts stream, as discussed.  Young folk want to
bolt performance onto a motor and tinker with mix and timing with a computer,
etc.  They're not into blowing through old motors, experimenting through trial
and error with clearances, gasket materials, etc. etc.  They'd rather hit a
Pick-A-Part and spend $40 for a used quarter panel than even begin to consider
the options facing TR enthusiasts!

That's not to say there aren't a few kids out there brought up right and with
proper vintage car taste, : ), but they are few and far between.

Most people here are racing cars from their youth; is it any surprise that
today's late teens and 20 to 30 somethings want to race cars from their time!

--Justin

> On Jul 5, 2014, at 11:49 AM, "Richard Taylor" <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> Terry,
>
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From: EDWARD BARNARD <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 13:17:32 -0700

They've all come down to CVAR.
-Ed- 

On Saturday, July 5, 2014 2:27 PM, J.
Wagner <[email-masked]> wrote:

Richard... I think he was
speaking of the next generation...  What interests
them.

Let's face it, there
aren't a hell of a lot of young folk, say born in the
80's or 90's, attending
Triumph car club meetings... And I don't know about
other parts of the
country... But driving a TR4A in the late 70's and 80's
drew interest wherever
I went...  Now I could be filling up at a gas station
and two buses of teens
going on an outing, stopping to raid the convenience
store and hit the
restrooms, wouldn't even give my car a second look, yet
alone ask me about it.
They're not interested.

Now let's talk about vintage versus newish...  There
aren't machine shops
everywhere you look anymore and the prices for work have
gone up
astronomically... Simple supply and demand theory!   Just like the
supply and
demand issues hitting the used parts stream, as discussed.  Young
folk want to
bolt performance onto a motor and tinker with mix and timing with
a computer,
etc.  They're not into blowing through old motors, experimenting
through trial
and error with clearances, gasket materials, etc. etc.  They'd
rather hit a
Pick-A-Part and spend $40 for a used quarter panel than even
begin to consider
the options facing TR enthusiasts!

That's not to say there
aren't a few kids out there brought up right and with
proper vintage car
taste, : ), but they are few and far between.

Most people here are racing
cars from their youth; is it any surprise that
today's late teens and 20 to 30
somethings want to race cars from their time!

--Justin

> On Jul 5, 2014,
at 11:49 AM, "Richard Taylor" <[email-masked]> wrote:
> I submit that for many of
us, it's still quite agreeable to enjoy the
> I also question the premise that most of us would
trade our hoary
Limey-iron
> Richard
Taylor
> From: Fot
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Terry Stetler
> As has been said, the Miata is what's needed to win in SCCA, and
that is
the
> way SCCA wants it.
>
>
>
> The Club cannot make money from
companies that no longer exist. (Standard
> Younger
members want to drive modern, lower cost/maintenance cars.
Fiddling
> with
grenade motor Frog Eye Sprites and Spitfires is not in their play
book.
> Also look at it from the
vintage racer's perspective.   To build a front of
> the grid Spitfire will
cost every bit as much as a TR3 through 6 car.
> [email-masked]
http://www.fot-racing.com/
> [email-masked]
http://www.fot-racing.com/
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From: John Hasty <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 21:32:10 -0400

The only "young folks" I know here in God's country are those who race with
their fathers.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 5, 2014, at 4:17 PM, EDWARD BARNARD <[email-masked]>

---

From: Edward Dunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 21:12:37 -0700

As has already been said, folks tend to like cars that were cool when they
were at that coming of age time, teen years. At 56, I'm considered a fairly
young MG TD owner. In my case, that sweet spot for cars is right around 1970.
How many younger folks do you see interested in Model A's, Packards, etc. Not
many.

I think the future for racing any MG, Triumph, Morgan, etc. is in vintage.
Even then, I see the huge Huffaker transporters (and similar) and their very
expensive to keep MGB, corvette's, etc,. Far out of the league of the typical
MG/Triumph vintage racer. Considering what is needed to run competitively in
SCCA, I just don't think it's a viable proposition for our vintage cars.

Owning several vintage British cars, including a handful of race cars, without
a doubt a Miata or similar is better for most racers. We just happen to dig
the vintage scene, and have no interest in SCCA type racing.

I would expect to see continued decrease of vintage British cars involved in
SCCA racing. Encourage those folks to come vintage race, where it could be
argued that's where they really belong, as none are newer than 1980.

We'll pass along a fine vintage sports car to each of our kids, and grandkids.
I'll provide any of them with a car & support to go vintage racing.  I think
that's the way to keep it going forward, along with being open and friendly to
all who show an interest at the track, in our neighborhood, etc.

Last little point; take one of your vintage race cars to local car shows.
You'll stand among the sea of 55-57 Chevy's, Corvette's & Porsche's. Invite
those interested to actually touch and sit in your car. Fire it up maybe. Give
out business cards, and have them call you if they have any interest in
getting involved. You'll create quite a stir, compared to the bozos with the
"Don't Touch" signs all over their cars.

Ed Dunn

West Coast Vintage Racing
Penngrove CA 94951

760-492-3814
www.vintageracing.us

-----Original Message-----
From: Fot [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of marty
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2014 6:14 AM
To: FOT
Subject: [Fot] Small Bore Racers

Marty

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From: Mike Jankowski <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 19:32:43 -0500

I rarely weigh in, but this is one of those times I feel the need to.
Warning, this will be lengthy.

First, let's deal with SCCA track racing. Simply put, our cars aren't that
competitive anymore. They can be pretty good, but the limits of the
technology they are based on, well, has limits. A Spitfire can be fast, but
as said before, how durable is the engine? Now throw in the Miata. Those
aren't any cheaper. A good front running Miata will cost you about 40-48k
to build plus the cost of the donor car. If you want an NA or NB donor,
those are drying up fast for cheap ones. They've already been snapped up
for SM, all the SCCA classes, etc. I happen to know the owner and one of
the mechanics at one of the best MX-5/Miata shops in the nation, and when
they say that, I tend to believe it. Also, most of those race prepped
engines get about half a season from them, then you're in for another or a
rebuild, either way minimum buy in is another 7-15k.

As to the SCCA being concerned with making money and not being a club
anymore, well, reality check: on the East coast it was that way in the late
50's already. Also, the SCCA has dwindling numbers overall due to
ineptitude and also the expense, thus the sprouting up of NASA, Chump,
LeMons, et al. But that's not the issue for this list, it's why are there
fewer of our cars outside of vintage racing? Some of our cars are too
valuable to risk in SCCA racing, either emotionally or financially. A big
part is the rules allowances for our cars haven't been updated in years.
This leads me to another SCCA issue: Autocross.

As you are aware, GP is going away in autocross. I say good. There are many
reasons for this. The top running cars can be competitive in other classes.
Maybe not winners, but definitely will get on stage. Also, as fewer and
fewer of cars of our vintage were campaigned, there weren't enough results
and data to recalculate PAX, as well as address the rules. A great example
is the Spitfire 1500. It would be required to run with a single ZS carb or
take a weight hit. Yet in FSP I can run whatever carbs I want, and I have
no minimum weight. So why go to the trouble of building a GP car when I can
do FSP so much easier?

Furthermore, GP did nothing to help itself over the last few years. 2011
having the class winners break parc ferme rules and cheat put the
crosshairs squarely on the class from the SEB. Then the entire boycott in
protest this past year was the nail in the coffin. Per a good friend who is
on the SEB "when you get mad and throw a 3rd grade temper tantrum and don't
show up, resulting in sparse attendance for the class, you're asking for
the axe. Especially when if they had shown up, we could have used the delta
in the performance data to address changing the class rules. Good thinking
on their part." Now, for some of the interesting parts.

I run a 1978 Spitfire 1500 in FSP in my club. I won the class last year.
One thing I found was that my entry and apex speeds were higher than a
national caliber 99 MX-5/driver combo. I lost ALL my time from the exit to
the entry of the next turn, and the next, etc. One thing bandied about has
been to give GP cars big weight reductions and allow them to run in DP. My
friend on the SEB asked me what kind of weight and induction allowances
they should make. I advised on setting very low weight limits for a 1500
and allowing any carbs the owner wanted. The rest of the rules allow for us
to build a suspension that is legal and competitive imo. Also, the issue of
wheel and tire size arose.

Is the lack of our cars being in more mainstream racing due to the above,
or due to lack of interest as stated elsewhere in this thread? I doubt
there is a lack of interest. I can't go anywhere in my Spitfire without
someone saying they had one, had a friend or relative with one, or they had
a Fiat, or MG, or who knows what other 2 seat Euro car. I think that many
people not only don't know how to get involved with racing, but how to even
find one of our cars for sale that is race ready. Unless you're in the
racing community, there is no way to really get that info. I think outreach
might be a good idea.

These are my observations. But what do I know? I'm just a 42 year old guy
who had worked on and been around these cars his entire life, as well as
various facets of racing. Oddly enough, I seem to be asked regularly about
where to get these cars and how to get started racing them. Go figure.

Mike

On Sat, Jul 5, 2014 at 11:12 PM, Edward Dunn <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> Just thinkinb&  back in the 90b s in my neck of the woods  there use to be
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]