Subject: [Fot] Electric cars

From: "RACER BUD" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 09:17:54 -0700

What happens to The electric cars when the batteries are  no good
anymore..?..and what does it cost to replace tham..or..what becomes of the
car?

RB
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From: Randall <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 18:07:15 +0000

> anymore..?..and what does it cost to replace tham..or..what becomes of the

They're kind of expensive to replace; buddy of mine said the battery for his 1st gen Prius was $7k but he convinced Toyota to cover half (which I suspect means the wholesale price is closer to $3.5k).  (Yes, I realize a Prius has a relatively small battery, it's just a data point).

When the car isn't worth the price of a new or rebuilt battery, it gets scrapped just like any other car that isn't worth repairing.

At the moment, AFAIK the nearest Li-ion battery recycling facility is in Canada.  Toxco was supposed to open a new plant in Ohio last year, but it doesn't seem to have happened yet.  At the moment, lithium is so cheap that it doesn't pay to recycle it; but likely that will change if electric cars gain more acceptance.

Personally, I don't see full electric as ever replacing internal combustion.  There is certainly a niche market for them, short distance commuting and so on.  But the advantages aren't nearly as great as some folks like to claim.  They aren't anywhere close to "zero pollution"; its just that most of the pollution comes out somewhere else.  NFI, YMMV, etc.

Randall

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From: Doug Mitchell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 14:24:33 -0400

It has been said that an F150 is more green cradle to grave than a Prius when you include battery disposal.

Full disclosure, I just took delivery of a hybrid, but it shares the garage with a F150. The Triumphs reside in a separate garage.

When you think about it, our Triumphs are, at this time, more 'green' than any electric or hybrid vehicle.

Cheers,

Doug
--
Doug Mitchell
[email-masked]

[email-masked] wrote:

>You are correct.  It takes coal fired power plants, gas fire power plants,
>hydro, solar and wind to power these batteries!  Then they end up in a
>landfill as it doesn't pay to recycle them.  But they are "green" vehicles and
>oh so manly. I am waiting for a hydrogen vehicle.  Zero emissions and
>power....maybe not in my lifetime but.
>
>I almost got hit walking in a parking lot a few months back. The guy was
>backing up in his Prius and since it makes no noise, he just about clipped me.
>Had I not heard the sand under the tires, and yelled, well.....
>
>Ty
>
>
>Sent from my iPad
>(Please excuse any errors or typos)
>
>On Apr 1, 2013, at 12:07 PM, Randall <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>> They're kind of expensive to replace; buddy of mine said the battery for his
>1st gen Prius was $7k but he convinced Toyota to cover half (which I suspect
>means the wholesale price is closer to $3.5k).  (Yes, I realize a Prius has a
>relatively small battery, it's just a data point).
>>
>> When the car isn't worth the price of a new or rebuilt battery, it gets
>scrapped just like any other car that isn't worth repairing.
>>
>> At the moment, AFAIK the nearest Li-ion battery recycling facility is in
>Canada.  Toxco was supposed to open a new plant in Ohio last year, but it
>doesn't seem to have happened yet.  At the moment, lithium is so cheap that it
>doesn't pay to recycle it; but likely that will change if electric cars gain
>more acceptance.
>>
>> Personally, I don't see full electric as ever replacing internal combustion.
>There is certainly a niche market for them, short distance commuting and so
>on.  But the advantages aren't nearly as great as some folks like to claim.
>They aren't anywhere close to "zero pollution"; its just that most of the
>pollution comes out somewhere else.  NFI, YMMV, etc.
>>
>> Randall
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
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From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 20:22:13 +0000 (UTC)

"What happens to The electric cars when the batteries are no good
anymore..?..and what does it cost to replace tham..or..

what becomes of the car"

I have two words......Big Block

Wouldn't that be a hoot. A supercharged GM big block running amidships in a
Prius.

jim g

----- Original Message -----

From: "Bobby Whitehead" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: "FoT Triumph" <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 12:05:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Fot] Electric cars

not having an electric or hybrid type car I have an opinion... they are not as
'green' as they could be touted in the long run. The lithium batteries are not
forever batteries and at some date and time they will have to be disposed of.
I'm not sure of the re-cycling phase of that process... and lithium is not a
natural product found easily around the world...
I had a neighbor, Rick Perry (not the Texas governor) who was a 5 state
representative for Audi America.. (we own our third Audi) and his thought
about
diesel was pretty interesting... I think most of us 'racer' types have seen
what
Audi has done in the past with Formula 1 and diesel powered F1 super
cars....amazing success story I'm sure most will agree...but.. 100 mpg is not
a
stretch in the real world for a diesel powered vehicle in the near future...
diesel is a product that can be made out of natural products, like cooking
oil,
in the bio-diesel realm of things...
Seem to reason IMHO that diesel or bio-diesel could be a long term solution to
energy and 'green' standards for the future of consumer automobiles.... just a
thought.... B  Bobby Whitehead
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Mon, April 1, 2013 11:20:09 AM
Subject: [Fot] Electric cars

What happens to The electric cars when the batteries are B no good
anymore..?..and what does it cost to replace tham..or..what becomes of the
car?

RB

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From: Mark J Bradakis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:08:11 -0600

> It has been said that an F150 is more green cradle to grave than a Prius when you include battery disposal.
I recall something about the earlier Prius models being one of the most 
environmentally
unfriendly cars to produce.  I can't recall the exact details, but it 
involved the nickel for
the batteries being mined in South Africa, the ore shipped to a smelter 
in Spain, then
halfway around the world to be formed into sheets, then the sheets 
shipped to Canada
to be made into batteries, which were shipped to Japan and put into cars 
that were
shipped back to North America.  That's a LOT of miles to be covered, 
powered by
petroleum.

mjb.

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:22:18 -0400 (EDT)

> than any electric or hybrid vehicle.

You mean...British Racing Green?

Bill (Damdinger)

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 22:54:59 +0000

I leased a chevy volt in dec 2012.. Three year deal. Since dec 10 I filled up w 8 gallons gas.  With another car I would have filled at least every ten days.    I have a solar panel array.  This past weekend I made about about 56KW per day.  As the days get longer the array generates perhaps 70+KW. 

The car is nearly noisless, gobs of instant torque and smooth.  I. Want to hot rod it and take it on the track.  Does scca have an all electric class?
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
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From: Bill Babcock <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:03:33 -1000

I consider the Chevy Volt to be the best engineered and most practical of all
the electrics. The technology is superb, it's a real achievement.

On Apr 3, 2013, at 12:54 PM, [email-masked] wrote:

> I leased a chevy volt in dec 2012.. Three year deal. Since dec 10 I filled
up w 8 gallons gas.  With another car I would have filled at least every ten
days.    I have a solar panel array.  This past weekend I made about about
56KW per day.  As the days get longer the array generates perhaps 70+KW.
>
> The car is nearly noisless, gobs of instant torque and smooth.  I. Want to
hot rod it and take it on the track.  Does scca have an all electric class?
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:28:55 -0400 (EDT)

It's been said that the carbon footprint of building/buying a new car is 
about equal to driving it the average 7 years.  Soooo-stop waste 
"Recycle old race cars"
    John Hagen

On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Doug Mitchell wrote:

> Full disclosure, I just took delivery of a hybrid, but it shares the 
> garage with a F150. The Triumphs reside in a separate garage.
>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

---

From: Randall <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 19:37:14 +0000

---- Bill Babcock <[email-masked]> wrote: 
> Seven percent of the
> energy in the US is used to operate refineries. 

I think there is something wrong with that number.  Refineries are powered primarily by electricity, and they just don't use that much electricity.

For example, http://goo.gl/Ag0dy reports that the US petroleum industry used approx 48E12 wH in 2005.  But our national consumption for 2005 was around 3800E12.  So oil refineries (which produce much more than just gasoline & diesel) only used about 1% of the electricity.

And gasoline production (only) for 2005 was about 130E9 gallons
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=wgfrpus2&f=w
meaning it took less than 400 wH per gallon of gasoline.

The only way I think you could get close to 7% is by counting petroleum that they take in and don't turn into energy sources; like asphalt and plastics.

It's really hard to beat pumping energy out of the ground ... until there isn't any left to pump out.  None of the "alternative" sources make much sense until we finally do run out of fossil fuels.  Of course, that particular sky has been reported to be falling for several decades now, but it hasn't happened yet.

Randall

---

From: Bill Babcock <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 11:08:57 -1000

The generally used rule of thumb for energy required to make gasolene is 13KWH
per gallon from all sources of energy required. That's a long way from 400
watt hours, which sounds kind of silly right up front. I don't recall the
source of the 7% number. I was pulling it from memory, and I think it includes
all energy used in refineries, not just electricity. There's a billion sources
on the web, but there's a lot of information gathered at this site, a strongly
slanted view, but the sources cited are reasonable and the guys conclusions
are both rational and interesting: http://www.evnut.com/gasoline_oil.htm

On Apr 4, 2013, at 9:37 AM, Randall <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I think there is something wrong with that number.  Refineries are powered
primarily by electricity, and they just don't use that much electricity.
>
> For example, http://goo.gl/Ag0dy reports that the US petroleum industry used
approx 48E12 wH in 2005.  But our national consumption for 2005 was around
3800E12.  So oil refineries (which produce much more than just gasoline &
diesel) only used about 1% of the electricity.
> The only way I think you could get close to 7% is by counting petroleum that
they take in and don't turn into energy sources; like asphalt and plastics.
>
> It's really hard to beat pumping energy out of the ground ... until there
isn't any left to pump out.  None of the "alternative" sources make much sense
until we finally do run out of fossil fuels.  Of course, that particular sky
has been reported to be falling for several decades now, but it hasn't
happened yet.