Subject: Re: [Fot] Neg. camber on 1964 tr4

From: Tony Drews <[email-masked]> ar.corp>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2013 13:14:09 -0600

What Richard Good just described for the TR-6 applies to the TR-4 as well.

Tony

Richard's message if you missed it:
"Reversing the upper fulcrum from factory orientation pulls the 
control arms in 1/4" and adds about 1.3 degrees negative camber if I 
remember my calculations correctly.  You can do it without removing 
the control arms from the fulcrum.   Just remove the four bolts 
holding the fulcrum to the tower and the two bolts through the ball 
joint and remove the whole assembly.  Then hold the fulcrum and spin 
the control arms 180 degrees then bolt the whole assembly on the 
other side of the car.  This keeps the front control arm in the front 
but reverses the fulcrum.

Preferred camber will depend on the tires.  The Hoosier A6's that I 
run for autocross and hillclimb want 3 degrees.  They are 225/45-15 
on 7" rims.  To get that much camber and to keep the tires clear of 
my unmodified fenders I reversed the fulcrums and then slotted the 
bolt holes to slide them in even further.  I just took the worn out 
tires off and the fronts wore fairly even.  The rears were also set 
at 3 degrees but wore more on the inside from squatting under 
power.  I backed it off to 2 degrees to see how that works out.  Also 
changed to a slightly stiffer spring."

At 11:22 PM 3/8/2013, Jon Gannaway wrote:
>I am preparing a 1964 tr4 to vintage race in California.  I am looking for
>simple and easy ways to get negative camber  in the car.  Any suggestions
>would be helpful.
>
>Jon Gannaway
>831-402-4080
>
>
>Disclaimer: The information in this e-mail transmission, or the documents
>accompanying this e-mail transmission, may contain confidential health
>information that is legally protected by state and federal law, including, but
>not limited to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996
>and related regulations. This information is intended only for the use of the
>individual or entity to whom this e-mail transmission is addressed. If you are
>not the intended recipient of this information, or if you are not properly
>authorized to receive this information, you are hereby notified that any
>disclosure, copying, distribution or action taken in reliance on the contents
>of this e-mail or the attached documents is strictly prohibited. If you have
>received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately by
>sending a reply e-mail indicating that you have arranged for the deletion of
>this e-mail and a destruction of this e-mail and any attached documents.
>_______________________________________________
>[email-masked]
>
>http://www.fot-racing.com
>
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

---

From: "Peter Vucinic" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 12:58:38 +1100

Have a look at the MOSS 1.5 DEG Negative Camber Vertical links. TT3003

Easy and cost effective!

Kind Regards
Peter Vucinic
TR-4

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Jon Gannaway
Sent: Saturday, 9 March 2013 4:23 PM
To: [email-masked]'
Subject: [Fot] Neg. camber on 1964 tr4

Jon Gannaway
831-402-4080

Disclaimer: The information in this e-mail transmission, or the documents
accompanying this e-mail transmission, may contain confidential health
information that is legally protected by state and federal law, including,
but not limited to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act
of 1996 and related regulations. This information is intended only for the
use of the individual or entity to whom this e-mail transmission is
addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this information, or if
you are not properly authorized to receive this information, you are hereby
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or action taken in
reliance on the contents of this e-mail or the attached documents is
strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please
notify the sender immediately by sending a reply e-mail indicating that you
have arranged for the deletion of this e-mail and a destruction of this
e-mail and any attached documents.
_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

---

From: Larry Young <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 10:42:45 -0500

It seems like it would be difficult to get enough change in camber for a 
TR3/4 by reversing the fulcrum.  The factory spec is +2 degrees, so it 
takes quite a lot to get to -2.  Lowering helps a little, less than 1/2 
degree.  If you shorten the upper A arms as many of us have done, you 
have to remove at least 1/2 inch.  I wrote a short report when I studied 
the suspension on my TR3 (see 
http://tildentechnologies.com/downloads/TRsuspension.PDF). There is a 
neat way to shorten the upper A arms that I discovered from Bob Kramer 
that does not involve cutting them in two.  I can put up a photo if 
anyone is interested in it.  The modification is not obvious for 
organizations that do not permit Heim joints, etc.
Larry

On 3/9/2013 1:14 PM, Tony Drews wrote:
> the control arms 180 degrees then bolt the whole assembly on the other 
> side of the car.  This keeps the front control arm in the front but 
> reverses the fulcrum.
>
> run for autocross and hillclimb want 3 degrees.  They are 225/45-15 on 
> 7" rims.  To get that much camber and to keep the tires clear of my 
> unmodified fenders I reversed the fulcrums and then slotted the bolt 
> holes to slide them in even further.  I just took the worn out tires 
> off and the fronts wore fairly even.  The rears were also set at 3 
> degrees but wore more on the inside from squatting under power.  I 
> backed it off to 2 degrees to see how that works out.  Also changed to 
> a slightly stiffer spring."
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

---

From: Larry Young <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 13:24:01 -0500

Here is a photo of some upper A arms I did to give 2 degrees negative 
camber on my TR3 (now John Hasty's) -

http://www.flickr.com/photos/53707928@N02

Cut off the end, drill new holes at the correct location.  The short 
piece of pipe supports the hole that is not on the flat part. This looks 
much nicer than cutting a piece out of the middle and welding them back 
together. From geometric calculations it takes about 0.174 inches to 
change the camber 1 degree.  I believe this agrees with the numbers that 
Richard Good had in his post.
Larry

On 3/10/2013 11:14 AM, Cregg Cowan wrote:
> Yes, please do send or post photos.
> Thank you!
>
> Cregg

---

From: "Stutzmans" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 18:35:08 -0400 s=q20121106; t=1362954909; bh=92A5GZ+aHfse2TjDOoJw5cPfhkSVuKr+XJEXTNae92Y=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=XH4g5VaDjAYQpd14E51LYYPDJ6QGQD0j0Qyg7nIIH5j2CAexyuvlOzr7wEfGgvDcD NLv0+aC7djoRTcwNMvQyCS3C5uGsWW44CzsTxpasVm+OCWaISeDyab3LmYiKwZSOwQ h1IoFnUWc751jrewU3E+l3I3kwPOnzBfSFcu7UONGm/o2YjiUcyZvaYb+1+5MA3H2o IMvlNqAWe614ALvN7FFgd+pMfsnE8bfUX8TGBqdYCRWe6Jj2XWA2iDXIBbNR3s8Qla BsrzIZH7I5sE5F2qP/tZkmGgv7Ai7yIkIh/kOnhbIDIAAK/6pqgp+efW7E4SvXEw3/ 5vXV4+ZXr5wTA==

Although the manual doesn't say so; I think that when they went to what 
would be the TR6 upper A arms and ball joint and 3 deg. trunnions (CT6345), 
the camber changed to 0 deg. from the TR3 and early TR4 2 deg. positive.
Bruce
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry Young" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2013 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Fot] Neg. camber on 1964 tr4

> degree.  If you shorten the upper A arms as many of us have done, you have 
> to remove at least 1/2 inch.  I wrote a short report when I studied the 
> suspension on my TR3 (see 
> http://tildentechnologies.com/downloads/TRsuspension.PDF). There is a neat 
> way to shorten the upper A arms that I discovered from Bob Kramer that 
> does not involve cutting them in two.  I can put up a photo if anyone is 
> interested in it.  The modification is not obvious for organizations that 
> do not permit Heim joints, etc.
> Larry
>
>> "Reversing the upper fulcrum from factory orientation pulls the control 
>> arms in 1/4" and adds about 1.3 degrees negative camber if I remember my 
>> calculations correctly.  You can do it without removing the control arms 
>> from the fulcrum.   Just remove the four bolts holding the fulcrum to the 
>> tower and the two bolts through the ball joint and remove the whole 
>> assembly.  Then hold the fulcrum and spin the control arms 180 degrees 
>> then bolt the whole assembly on the other side of the car.  This keeps 
>> the front control arm in the front but reverses the fulcrum.
>>
>> Preferred camber will depend on the tires.  The Hoosier A6's that I run 
>> for autocross and hillclimb want 3 degrees.  They are 225/45-15 on 7" 
>> rims.  To get that much camber and to keep the tires clear of my 
>> holes to slide them in even further.  I just took the worn out tires off 
>> and the fronts wore fairly even.  The rears were also set at 3 degrees 
>> but wore more on the inside from squatting under power.  I backed it off 
>> to 2 degrees to see how that works out.  Also changed to a slightly 
>> stiffer spring."
>>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

---

From: Larry Young <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 18:36:59 -0500

My TR3 had the original suspension A arm system before with 0 caster.  
If you Iook at my report, I measured something a bit less than 2 degrees 
camber and not the same from side to side.  I chaulked that up to wear 
and tear.  I did not see an appreciable change in the camber when I 
switched to the the TR4 A arms with 3 degrees of caster.  Also, the 
amount I had to shorten the A arms agreed with the value I calculated 
from measurements, i.e. 0.174 inches/deg.  I thought the change in the 
stock camber started with the adjustable camber  system installled in 
the TR4A.  I haven't researched this, so perhaps someone else has some 
verification.
Larry

On 3/10/2013 5:35 PM, Stutzmans wrote:
> Although the manual doesn't say so; I think that when they went to 
> what would be the TR6 upper A arms and ball joint and 3 deg. trunnions 
> (CT6345), the camber changed to 0 deg. from the TR3 and early TR4 2 
> deg. positive.
> Bruce

---

From: Larry Young <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 19:40:37 -0500

I think that is the same software I used.  I did not find an appreciable 
difference between the two methods (shortening the A arms or moving the 
pivots inwards).  You don't really need suspension software to look at 
this simple stuff.  I found a spreadsheet agreed with it and was not as 
cumbersome.

On 3/10/2013 7:06 PM, Bill Babcock wrote:I
> According to the analysis I did with my suspension software (SuspPro) the most useful way to change camber on a TR3 is to move the upper arms inward and kee.p them the same length. I use the TR6 bits to get caster and cut the upper arms to add heim joints to make an adjustable arm, but the length is close to stock, just has the pivot moved inwards.
>
> If you shorten the upper A arms you wind up with a lot of camber at full bump. It's also pretty hard to get the bump steer out with shorter arms, the outer pivot point moves well inside the lower pivot.

---

From: Bill Babcock <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 14:06:07 -1000

According to the analysis I did with my suspension software (SuspPro) the most
useful way to change camber on a TR3 is to move the upper arms inward and keep
them the same length. I use the TR6 bits to get caster and cut the upper arms
to add heim joints to make an adjustable arm, but the length is close to
stock, just has the pivot moved inwards.

If you shorten the upper A arms you wind up with a lot of camber at full bump.
It's also pretty hard to get the bump steer out with shorter arms, the outer
pivot point moves well inside the lower pivot.

> Bruce
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Young" <[email-masked]>
> To: <[email-masked]>
TR3/4 by reversing the fulcrum.  The factory spec is +2 degrees, so it takes
quite a lot to get to -2.  Lowering helps a little, less than 1/2 degree.  If
you shorten the upper A arms as many of us have done, you have to remove at
least 1/2 inch.  I wrote a short report when I studied the suspension on my
TR3 (see http://tildentechnologies.com/downloads/TRsuspension.PDF). There is a
neat way to shorten the upper A arms that I discovered from Bob Kramer that
does not involve cutting them in two.  I can put up a photo if anyone is
interested in it.  The modification is not obvious for organizations that do
not permit Heim joints, etc.
arms in 1/4" and adds about 1.3 degrees negative camber if I remember my
calculations correctly.  You can do it without removing the control arms from
the fulcrum.   Just remove the four bolts holding the fulcrum to the tower and
the two bolts through the ball joint and remove the whole assembly.  Then hold
the fulcrum and spin the control arms 180 degrees then bolt the whole assembly
on the other side of the car.  This keeps the front control arm in the front
but reverses the fulcrum.
>>> Preferred camber will depend on the tires.  The Hoosier A6's that I run
for autocross and hillclimb want 3 degrees.  They are 225/45-15 on 7" rims.
To get that much camber and to keep the tires clear of my unmodified fenders I
reversed the fulcrums and then slotted the bolt holes to slide them in even
further.  I just took the worn out tires off and the fronts wore fairly even.
The rears were also set at 3 degrees but wore more on the inside from
squatting under power.  I backed it off to 2 degrees to see how that works
out.  Also changed to a slightly stiffer spring."
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

---

From: "Tim Murphy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:07:31 -0500

Bill, I'm not sure I follow the modification you did.  You said you made
adjustable upper A-arms with Heim joints, which I'm familiar with. But then
you said the length is close to stock and the pivot moved inward.  Do you
mean the inner pivot rod on the frame or the outer ball joint pivot?  And
when others have done the modification of shortening the upper A-arms by
cutting a section out and then re-welding the remaining pieces back
together, they have reported having to shorten the A-arm by about 1/2 inch
to get the - 3 degrees camber.  Did you not have to shorten your Heim joint
A-arms by about 1/2 inch also?  Thanks.

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Bill Babcock
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2013 7:06 PM
To: Stutzmans
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Fot] Neg. camber on 1964 tr4

According to the analysis I did with my suspension software (SuspPro) the
most
useful way to change camber on a TR3 is to move the upper arms inward and
keep
them the same length. I use the TR6 bits to get caster and cut the upper
arms
to add heim joints to make an adjustable arm, but the length is close to
stock, just has the pivot moved inwards.

If you shorten the upper A arms you wind up with a lot of camber at full
bump.
It's also pretty hard to get the bump steer out with shorter arms, the outer
pivot point moves well inside the lower pivot.

TR3/4 by reversing the fulcrum.  The factory spec is +2 degrees, so it takes
quite a lot to get to -2.  Lowering helps a little, less than 1/2 degree.
If
you shorten the upper A arms as many of us have done, you have to remove at
least 1/2 inch.  I wrote a short report when I studied the suspension on my
TR3 (see http://tildentechnologies.com/downloads/TRsuspension.PDF). There is
a
neat way to shorten the upper A arms that I discovered from Bob Kramer that
does not involve cutting them in two.  I can put up a photo if anyone is
interested in it.  The modification is not obvious for organizations that do
not permit Heim joints, etc.
arms in 1/4" and adds about 1.3 degrees negative camber if I remember my
calculations correctly.  You can do it without removing the control arms
from
the fulcrum.   Just remove the four bolts holding the fulcrum to the tower
and
the two bolts through the ball joint and remove the whole assembly.  Then
hold
the fulcrum and spin the control arms 180 degrees then bolt the whole
assembly
on the other side of the car.  This keeps the front control arm in the front
but reverses the fulcrum.
for autocross and hillclimb want 3 degrees.  They are 225/45-15 on 7" rims.
To get that much camber and to keep the tires clear of my unmodified fenders
I
reversed the fulcrums and then slotted the bolt holes to slide them in even
further.  I just took the worn out tires off and the fronts wore fairly
even.
The rears were also set at 3 degrees but wore more on the inside from
squatting under power.  I backed it off to 2 degrees to see how that works
out.  Also changed to a slightly stiffer spring."
>>>> not limited to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act
of
1996
>>>> and related regulations. This information is intended only for the use
of
the
>>>> received this information in error, please notify the sender
immediately
by
>>>> sending a reply e-mail indicating that you have arranged for the
deletion
of
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
_______________________________________________
[email-masked]