Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

From: "MadMarx" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:23:35 +0200

I had the same trouble with Wiseco pistons.
Maybe they expand a lot.

I run as piston to wall clearance 0.13mm.

Never believe what the piston manufacturer says.
Won't work on a wet liner Triumph engine.
The liners deform under heat and getting oval.
More clearance is needed as normal.

At the current engine I try to install old liners in the same direction when
they were installed the first time in hope the deformation is smaller.

Chris

-----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] Im
Auftrag von Robert Blake
Gesendet: Dienstag, 11. September 2012 17:08
An: [email-masked]
Betreff: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

Pops and I had a less than excellent weekend at TWS it would true to say
that we were beaten by equipment, one of us physically.

We just put a new engine
in Dads #14. The second one since December. We built this one with Wiseco
pistons, stock liners bored to 87+.005 on 1-3 and +.006 on number 4. This
resulted in the engine lasting most of the day Friday for test and tune. On
his last run we did a plug check. We had been trying to dial in his mixture
all day and moving from a lean condition as evidenced by previous plug cuts
in the day. After adjusting the mixture, reinstalling the plugs, gapping
points, and rechecking timing we started the engine to hear a horrible
clatter from within. Same clatter that dad had heard at the Mitty so we
feared the worst.
Later that evening he and Bob Kramer confirmed that #4 piston skirt  was
scuffed again. The same thing happened on the previous engine at the Mitty.
Oil pressure was great all day (80 psi from 3000rpm up) the water temp never
went above normal range.

So other than lack of piston to liner clearance, what causes pistons skirts
to scuff on the liner?  Can a lean mixture on the rear carb cause this
without showing up as a hot running condition?

On to my
issue.

My aluminum hood pins broke on the TR3 on the back straight.
Unfortunately, the passenger hinge snapped but the drivers side did not. The
hood bent back and slapped my helmet pretty good (beaten by my equipment).
Never thought of it that way before. Not pleasant. So I am in search of a
decent bonnet. It is for a 58 TR3A. I am not too picky but proximity to TX
is a major consideration.

Info on both issues is appreciated.

Greg
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From: Joe Alexander <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 11:33:28 -0400 (EDT)

Sorry to hear of these MECHANICAL MALADIES.

BTW, it turned out that Jerry Barker's fuel supplies in his RV/Hauler trailer
had lines switched from his genset to the race gas by an RV service center. He
was running street gas in his Spitfire and that caused his failures at the
Mitty.

For myself, I have installed a bone stock TR4 engine in the AMBRO and hope to
run it midpack and reliably next season.

Alexander Racing isnt in a position to deal with two race engines, and we hope
to return to the track in 2013 with maximum track time at the lowest expense,
with the TR4 and the AMBRO.

I sometimes think we ask too much of this old equipment.....especially as
amateurs who do most of the work ourselves.  Money is likely well spent on the
suspension.....all that HP is no good if you cant go around the corners.

I must be getting old.  But I dont want to tow to Mosport and Road America and
then return home with tortured metal.

Something to think about.

Joe Alexander
A. R. E.
645 1st Street
Jesup, Iowa 50648
319.464.4711  (cell)
[email-masked]

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Blake <[email-masked]>
To: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 10:11 am
Subject: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

Pops and I had a less than excellent weekend at TWS it would true to say that
we were beaten by equipment, one of us physically.

We just put a new engine
in Dads #14. The second one since December. We built this one with Wiseco
pistons, stock liners bored to 87+.005 on 1-3 and +.006 on number 4. This
resulted in the engine lasting most of the day Friday for test and tune. On
his last run we did a plug check. We had been trying to dial in his mixture
all day and moving from a lean condition as evidenced by previous plug cuts
in
the day. After adjusting the mixture, reinstalling the plugs, gapping points,
and rechecking timing we started the engine to hear a horrible clatter from
within. Same clatter that dad had heard at the Mitty so we feared the worst.
Later that evening he and Bob Kramer confirmed that #4 piston skirt  was
scuffed again. The same thing happened on the previous engine at the Mitty.
Oil pressure was great all day (80 psi from 3000rpm up) the water temp never
went above normal range.

So other than lack of piston to liner clearance,
what causes pistons skirts to scuff on the liner?  Can a lean mixture on the
rear carb cause this without showing up as a hot running condition?

On to my
issue.

decent bonnet. It is for a 58 TR3A. I am not too picky but proximity to TX is
a major consideration.

Greg

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---

From: "john hasty" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 11:38:07 -0400

We use JE pistons and rings with a clearance of 2.5 thou.  Which I think is
about 1/2 of a thou. Less than Chris uses.  

John H. Hasty
Attorney At Law
Guthrie, Davis, Henderson & Staton, P.L.L.C.
719 East Boulevard
Charlotte, North Carolina 28203-5113
Tele: (704) 372-5600
Fax: (704) 372-4601
E-mail: [email-masked]
www.gdhs.com
 
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of MadMarx
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 11:24 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

Chris

-----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht-----

We just put a new engine

On to my
issue.

Greg

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---

From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 11:49:40 -0400 (EDT)

2.5 is not enough.
As Chris has said, the wet-liner engines need more.
I set them to at least 3 1/2 thou.
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: john hasty <[email-masked]>
To: 'MadMarx' <[email-masked]>; fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 11:41 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

John H. Hasty
Attorney At Law

-----Original Message-----

Chris

-----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht-----

We just put a new engine

On to my
issue.

Greg

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---

From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 13:16:05 -0400 (EDT)

I'll try this again, my reply had too much text.
The manufacturers will call out a recommended clearance, but that's all it is.
The operating speed, temperatures, cooling systems etc all are variables.
Generally the harder it is run, the more clearance it needs.
Also pistons can scuff during warm-up, under certain conditions, so it's a
good thing to get it up to temp before flogging it hard.
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Moore <[email-masked]>
To: 'fubog1' <[email-masked]>; jhhasty <[email-masked]>; tr4racing
<[email-masked]>; fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 1:06 pm
Subject: RE: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

As an inexperienced newcomer with my TR4 next year, (I never heard of piston
skirts scuffing the cylinder liners, at least not in my stock TR4), it would
seem to me that we should have the Kastner Cup as the first race of season,
there may not be many engines running by end of season!

I knew vintage racing would have its share of breakdowns, but you guys are
scaring the hell out of me!

Mike Moore

62 TR4

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of fubog1
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 11:50 AM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

 2.5 is not enough.

---

From: Bill Babcock <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 10:29:19 -0700

Not to worry Mike, start off with the simple investment in Kas' books and READ
THEM. It takes a lot less time than building an engine again. If you do that
and follow the suggestions you'll have an engine that lasts just fine. I pound
the heck out of my engines and even when it was just my ham-handed efforts
they generally lasted for years. Really, there's just a few big rules to
follow:

Adequate piston clearance
Adequate guide clearance
Keep an eye on your cam followers and the entire valve train--including
springs
Don't get too carried away with compression
If you don't have a steel crank and good rods, keep the RPMs below 5500
Don't overheat the car

On Sep 11, 2012, at 10:16 AM, fubog1 wrote:

> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

---

From: Joe Alexander <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:15:13 -0400 (EDT)

FOT REGALIA:

 STICKERS
FLAGS
SHIRTS
MEDALLIONS
ETC.

John Hasty, et. al.

I think we are depleted of any regalia items. All of what we have had, in the
past, has been through generous volunteerism. And we didnt use these moneys to
do any funding.

We are now very low on FOT FUNDS.  2013 KCUP will not be heavily sponsored as
in the past.  We can use sales of regalia to do a nice job of funding some of
Kas' expenses and perhaps a hospitality tent in FOT VILLAGE at Road America.

I plan to offer up CALIFORNIA AIR proceeds to help THE FOT FUND out.

But we need some volunteers to support the rest of the regalia.  2013 KCUP
will be successful with John Houlton presiding as CHAIR, but for expenses
beyond what we have available in the till now, sales of regalia and
'sponsorships' will be very welcome.

John, your inquiry is very timely. THANKS!

Joe Alexander
A. R. E.
645 1st Street
Jesup, Iowa 50648
319.464.4711  (cell)
[email-masked]

-----Original Message-----
From: john hasty <[email-masked]>
To: 'Joe Alexander' <[email-masked]>; rblake36 <[email-masked]>; fot
<[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 10:49 am
Subject: RE: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

I know how it feels.  Last year we went all the way up to Mosport from
Charlotte only to brake a rod in the 2nd practice session.....certainly
something to be avoided.    Joe....are there any FOT stickers left?  With
the re-do of both the right and left sides of my car needed after Mid Ohio,
I have lost the ones I had.

John H. Hasty
Attorney At Law

---

From: Duncan Charlton <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 13:16:24 -0500

Greg,

Piers told me about the excitement.  What a shock that must have been, and at
a pretty fast part of the track, too (well before the turn-in point for turn
7, I hope? Kinda 100 mph-ish there...)

Regarding the piston scuffing issue, I'm betting you've already got inadequate
coolant flow ruled out.  The two possibilities that come to mind are: 1) an
intake air leak only on #4 intake tract and 2) a bent rod.

1) Have you tried viewing temperatures at different points on the header and
surface of the engine block and head using an infrared thermometer?  A look at
the exhaust header temp for each individual branch ought to tell you if one
cylinder is running leaner than the others.  If all four pipes are indicating
similar temperatures I'd suspect oiling or a clearance issue.

I'm assuming you're doing plug cuts in the absence of an EGT gauge and probe
or exhaust gas analyzer. How are you performing your plug cuts?  I have found
that the results are not clear if I don't put in a new plug at the very start
of a hard acceleration pull, with next to no idle time and no part-load
driving time.

2) If the connecting rod is bent, the #4 piston could be cocked (as seen from
the side of the engine).  If so, the scuffing would be on a side where the
wrist pin hole is.  If you're going to pull the piston and rod it's easy
enough to check the rod for trueness. Is it possible to install a rod
backwards, causing the small end to force the piston against the front or rear
of the bore?   That might also exert asymmetric pressure on the big end rod
bearing -- how does the bearing look?

Is the scuffing at 90 degrees to that, on the thrust side?  If so, one
possibility is lack of oil.  It may be that somehow oil isn't getting thrown
up to the bottom of the piston in #4 only, causing it to run hotter.  You
could bore a couple of tiny lubrication holes below the lowest movement limit
of the oil ring, where oil could get to the skirt, but not having an engine
open at the moment, I can't visualize how you might pressure-feed this.

Is the overbore you mentioned equivalent to the piston-to-cylinder wall
clearances?

Duncan
Texas
1952 Morgan Plus 4 #6 red

> Pops and I had a less than excellent weekend at TWS it would true to say
that
in
> decent bonnet. It is for a 58 TR3A. I am not too picky but proximity to TX
is

---

From: John Styduhar <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:42:44 -0400

My math shows that MadMarx is running .005" piston to wall clearance
(.13mm/25.4 mm/inch=.005.  Wiseco's suggested clearance for their
forged 87mm slugs is .004, but others (BFE)  have recommended .006, which
is what my machinist is honing to.
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 1:16 PM, fubog1 <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 18:50:17 +0000

All maths are right.

I run Mahle forged pistons. They are very fragile and light.
About 380gr incl rings and wrist pin.

They have long skirts 
Mahle suggested 0.06mm but I didn't dare that.

Chris  
Gesendet mit BlackBerry von Vodafone

---

From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:21:56 -0400 (EDT)

The other point that should be mentioned is that these liners should be honed
using a torque plate.
They get out of shape once they are clamped down in place.
FWIW I use JE pistons and set them at .004, usually with coated skirts as an
added insurance policy against scuffing.
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: John Styduhar <[email-masked]>
To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Cc: mmoore <[email-masked]>; jhhasty <[email-masked]>; tr4racing
<[email-masked]>; fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 2:42 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

My math shows that MadMarx is running .005" piston to wall clearance
(.13mm/25.4 mm/inch=.005.  Wiseco's suggested clearance for their forged 87mm
slugs is .004, but others (BFE)  have recommended .006, which is what my
machinist is honing to.

The manufacturers will call out a recommended clearance, but that's all it
is.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 20:25:59 +0000

We did a lot of testing with torque plate and we found NO difference with or without.
Gesendet mit BlackBerry von Vodafone

-----Original Message-----
From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:21:56 
To: <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

 The other point that should be mentioned is that these liners should be honed using a torque plate.
They get out of shape once they are clamped down in place.
FWIW I use JE pistons and set them at .004, usually with coated skirts as an added insurance policy against scuffing.
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: John Styduhar <[email-masked]>
To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Cc: mmoore <[email-masked]>; jhhasty <[email-masked]>; tr4racing <[email-masked]>; fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 2:42 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

My math shows that MadMarx is running .005" piston to wall clearance (.13mm/25.4 mm/inch=.005.  Wiseco's suggested clearance for their forged 87mm slugs is .004, but others (BFE)  have recommended .006, which is what my machinist is honing to.

---

From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:45:10 -0400 (EDT)

Well not to start a controversy, but I have one on the bench right now,
torqued down and ready to go, and the mics don't lie.
The liners tend to waist down around the lower register.
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: tr4racing <[email-masked]>
To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>; johnstydo <[email-masked]>
Cc: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

We did a lot of testing with torque plate and we found NO difference with or
without.
Gesendet mit BlackBerry von Vodafone

-----Original Message-----
From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:21:56
To: <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>;
<[email-masked]>

-----Original Message-----
From: John Styduhar <[email-masked]>
To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Cc: mmoore <[email-masked]>; jhhasty <[email-masked]>; tr4racing

My math shows that MadMarx is running .005" piston to wall clearance
(.13mm/25.4
mm/inch=.005.  Wiseco's suggested clearance for their forged 87mm slugs is
.004,
but others (BFE)  have recommended .006, which is what my machinist is honing
to.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 20:46:49 +0000

At what bore size?

-----Original Message-----
From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:45:10 
To: <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

 Well not to start a controversy, but I have one on the bench right now, torqued down and ready to go, and the mics don't lie.
The liners tend to waist down around the lower register.
Glen 

-----Original Message-----
From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:21:56 
To: <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; 
<[email-masked]>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Styduhar <[email-masked]>
To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Cc: mmoore <[email-masked]>; jhhasty <[email-masked]>; tr4racing 

My math shows that MadMarx is running .005" piston to wall clearance (.13mm/25.4 
mm/inch=.005.  Wiseco's suggested clearance for their forged 87mm slugs is .004, 
but others (BFE)  have recommended .006, which is what my machinist is honing 
to.

---

From: Robert Deanes <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:56:27 -0400

I run about ..006 for my clearance with Wiesco pistons, they are popular in
the marine industry and they have the same characteristics...or problems
without the clearance..need more room, I also add more clearance to
the connecting rod at the crank  so that more oil can be delivered,I was
told it was an old dragster trick..seems to work.

.
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 4:25 PM, <[email-masked]> wrote:

> FWIW I use JE pistons and set them at .004, usually with coated skirts as
> an added insurance policy against scuffing.
> Glen
>
>
>
>
>
> Cc: mmoore <[email-masked]>; jhhasty <[email-masked]>; tr4racing <
> [email-masked]>; fot <[email-masked]>
> (.13mm/25.4 mm/inch=.005.  Wiseco's suggested clearance for their forged
> 87mm slugs is .004, but others (BFE)  have recommended .006, which is what
> my machinist is honing to.
>
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
>
>
>

-- 
rob deanes
TR Racer

---

From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:57:01 -0400 (EDT)

87mm (3.425). I usually use BFEs LA Sleeve liners, they are pretty stout
compared to stock liners but still need a torque plate hone IMHO.
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: tr4racing <[email-masked]>
To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>; johnstydo <[email-masked]>
Cc: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 4:46 pm
Subject: AW: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

At what bore size?

From:  fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:45:10 -0400 (EDT)
To: <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

-----Original Message-----
From: tr4racing <[email-masked]>
To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>; johnstydo <[email-masked]>
Cc: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

without.

-----Original Message-----

<[email-masked]>

using a torque plate.

Glen

-----Original Message-----

to.

Glen

[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 20:58:34 +0000

I use old liners and enlarge the to 88mm.

-----Original Message-----
From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:57:01 
To: <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

 87mm (3.425). I usually use BFEs LA Sleeve liners, they are pretty stout compared to stock liners but still need a torque plate hone IMHO.
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: tr4racing <[email-masked]>
To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>; johnstydo <[email-masked]>
Cc: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 4:46 pm
Subject: AW: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

At what bore size?

 

-----Original Message-----
From: tr4racing <[email-masked]>
To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>; johnstydo <[email-masked]>
Cc: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

without.

-----Original Message-----

<[email-masked]>

using a torque plate.

Glen

 

-----Original Message-----

to. 

Glen

[email-masked]

---

From: Kas Kastner <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 21:12:37 +0000

During tests a couple eons ago we did a simular test and found the sleeve was
like pushing on the end of a garden hose. (87 mm), only not quite as
predictable. it cerrtain turned me into  .0045" to .005" clearance guy. The
best seal and power I ever had was when I lapped the rings to the sleeve, gave
the piston a lot of clearance, and wished it well in the war days to come. As
long as that spark plug comes out of the bore after racing with a crusty ring
on the edge looking like tiny potato chips you could not make it better.

Never be beaten by equipment
 > To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
> From: [email-masked]
> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 20:46:49 +0000
> CC: [email-masked]
(.13mm/25.4
.004,
is.
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

---

From: Joe Alexander <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 20:24:58 -0400 (EDT)

we use old OEM liners and bore to size with a fixture replicated from John
Deere production fixtures.

OEM material is very good and equipment for boring and honing is state of the
art.

our torque plate is for sale.

we defer to Glen's methods, however, as we suspect he has control over the
variables and has great credibility.

but we cant afford to send our engines to Glen.....or we would.

Joe Alexander
A. R. E.
645 1st Street
Jesup, Iowa 50648
319.464.4711  (cell)
[email-masked]

-----Original Message-----
From: tr4racing <[email-masked]>
To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>; johnstydo <[email-masked]>
Cc: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 4:46 pm
Subject: AW: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

At what bore size?

 Well not to start a controversy, but I have one on the bench right now,
torqued
down and ready to go, and the mics don't lie.
The liners tend to waist down around the lower register.
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: tr4racing <[email-masked]>
To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>; johnstydo <[email-masked]>
Cc: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

without.

-----Original Message-----

<[email-masked]>

using a torque plate.

Glen

-----Original Message-----

to.

Glen

[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 20:37:10 -0400 (EDT)

<<< we use old OEM liners and bore to size with a fixture replicated from
John
eere production fixtures.  OEM material is very good and equipment for boring
and honing is state of the
rt. our torque plate is for sale.  we defer to Glen's methods, however, as we
suspect he has control over the
ariables and has great credibility.  but we cant afford to send our engines to
Glen.....or we would. >>>
We too have a stash of original sleeves that we dress for fresh engines.  They
are hard as all get out,
and much better than what we have seen available new.  Also...you can look for
Pink Pigs flying any day
when we disagree with that 'Bearded Wonder' down in Florida.
Hi Glen!
Bill Dentinger
_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

---

From: "MadMarx" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 10:14:58 +0200

I would like to show you the pistons:

Left Wiseco, right Mahle:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OfylAQLY4J4/UFBD1bKreQI/AAAAAAAABaU/_XKnb
Z5jCTw/s920/Importierte+Fotos+00003.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-8ZCKC6pHEaI/UFBD-3a9-pI/AAAAAAAABac/2XydJ
0yWDwE/s920/Importierte+Fotos+00002.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-K1GqMXqR-4c/UFBEJcMbSdI/AAAAAAAABak/_I2JA
pwohAs/s920/Importierte+Fotos+00004.JPG

Interesting is, that the bigger shaped piston is much lighter.

Cheers
Chris

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 06:25:17 -0400

Scuffing is caused by piston expansion. Piston expansion is caused by heat. 
If you are running adequate piston to liner clearance and you are still 
getting excessive scuffing only on #4, perhaps the back of your block is not 
getting adequate flow of coolant. If the coolant at the back of the block 
does not circulate adequately, hot spots form, allowing the coolant around 
#4 will reach it's boiling point. Once the liner creates enough heat for the 
coolant to start vaporizing (boiling), a jacket of air bubbles is formed 
around the liner, further impeding the coolant from doing it's job. That jug 
gets heated more that the others, your piston expands more, and scuffing 
occurs.

Next time you are prepping a block for a build, and are at the step of 
rinsing the block with copious amounts of water, try this. Slide all four 
liners in the block, and set in place whatever head gasket you are using, a 
used head gasket is fine for this purpose. You are going to want to install 
a few head studs and jury-rig something to hold the head gasket in place. 
Then take your garden hose and stuff it into the water inlet hole in the 
front of the block. Turn on the water.

You will note the lions share of the water is flowing out the front of the 
block, and around #4 the water is barely overflowing. That's whats happening 
to your coolant when your engine is running. Your 'cold' coolant from the 
radiator enters the block at the front,  but most of it flows around 1 and 2 
and goes up to the head and exits the thermostat housing. The coolantin the 
back half of the engine is pretty stagnant, allowing hot spots to be formed.

For the most part, the holes in the head gasket are the what meters the 
water flow from the block up through the head. On the stock head gasket 
those holes allow too much flow at the front. Look at Mordy's copper 
headgaskets for this engine, you will see he has made the coolant passage 
holes quite small at the front.

To increase circulation at the back of the engine, you need to impede the 
coolant flow from the block to the head in at least the front half of the 
engine. I install small freeze plugs in the appropriate coolant passages in 
the head, and then drill small holes in the freeze plugs to meter the flow. 
This stopped all my issues with  excessive scuffing on the #4 piston.

But what do I know, I blew up this year as well!

Henry
[email-masked]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Blake"

---

From: TR4 Tony <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:33:15 +0100

Hi all

I use 89mm venolia pistons with .006 clearance and they seem to give me two
years before I start getting ring trouble, so far twice on cyl 4 where the
comp ratio drops from 165 to 115 and I start throwing oil from the rocker
/valve cover vent straight into the catch tank.

Cyl 2 comp falls to about 130 on my scale at the same time. 1 and 3 sit at 155
Ish. This seems to be the order of wear in my engine and a couple of similar
ones, so pretty consistent I'm told.

This is all due to accelerated ring wear due to heat in the rear of the engine
as others have said and if I let it go too far, scrap pistons as a minimum.
Provided I keep a tab on the comp ratios and measure what I pump out of the
catch tank I can keep track of wear on a relative scale, recognising that if I
do so I won't get a heavy failure. Short of solving the issue finally this is
the only way to deal with it, hence my bi annual refit.

I'm getting two years worth of relatively trouble free running with my steel
crank, venolia pistons and carillo rods. That's about 18000 to 20000 rally
miles, maybe 10000 of those at 5000 rpm and above, 3000 at maximum attack of
6500 to 7500 and above (my counter reads to 6000 so when the beastie stops
accelerating and the noise doesn't get louder I know I'm on the peg).

I can forward the specs of the various bits if anyone else is interested.

Happy days.

Tony

Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Sep 2012, at 16:23, "MadMarx" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

---

From: "MadMarx" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 15:45:32 +0200

Quite low compression.

I read between 210 - 220 PSI at my engine with a compression of 11.3:1.

Maybe we have here Californian air too?

Chris

-----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: TR4 Tony [mailto:[email-masked]]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. September 2012 15:33
An: MadMarx
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Betreff: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

Hi all

Cyl 2 comp falls to about 130 on my scale at the same time. 1 and 3 sit at
155 Ish. This seems to be the order of wear in my engine and a couple of
similar ones, so pretty consistent I'm told.

This is all due to accelerated ring wear due to heat in the rear of the
engine as others have said and if I let it go too far, scrap pistons as a
minimum. Provided I keep a tab on the comp ratios and measure what I pump
out of the catch tank I can keep track of wear on a relative scale,
recognising that if I do so I won't get a heavy failure. Short of solving
the issue finally this is the only way to deal with it, hence my bi annual
refit.

Happy days.

Tony

Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Sep 2012, at 16:23, "MadMarx" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> At the current engine I try to install old liners in the same
> direction when they were installed the first time in hope the deformation
is smaller.
> Pops and I had a less than excellent weekend at TWS it would true to
> say that we were beaten by equipment, one of us physically.
>
> We just put a new engine
> in Dads #14. The second one since December. We built this one with
> Wiseco pistons, stock liners bored to 87+.005 on 1-3 and +.006 on
> number 4. This resulted in the engine lasting most of the day Friday
> for test and tune. On his last run we did a plug check. We had been
> trying to dial in his mixture all day and moving from a lean condition
> as evidenced by previous plug cuts in the day. After adjusting the
> mixture, reinstalling the plugs, gapping points, and rechecking timing
> we started the engine to hear a horrible clatter from within. Same
> clatter that dad had heard at the Mitty so we feared the worst.
> Later that evening he and Bob Kramer confirmed that #4 piston skirt
> was scuffed again. The same thing happened on the previous engine at the
Mitty.
> Oil pressure was great all day (80 psi from 3000rpm up) the water temp
> never went above normal range.
>
> So other than lack of piston to liner clearance, what causes pistons
> skirts to scuff on the liner?  Can a lean mixture on the rear carb
> cause this without showing up as a hot running condition?
>
> On to my
> issue.
>
> Unfortunately, the passenger hinge snapped but the drivers side did
> not. The hood bent back and slapped my helmet pretty good (beaten by my
equipment).
> Never thought of it that way before. Not pleasant. So I am in search
> of a decent bonnet. It is for a 58 TR3A. I am not too picky but
> proximity to TX is a major consideration.
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

---

From: Michael Porter <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 08:03:16 -0600

> Maybe we have here Californian air too?

Or just air at some altitude well above sea level.  Tony doesn't say 
where he's taking those measurements, or the overlap of the cam he's 
using, both of which can have rather dramatic effect on the numbers when 
compared to a milder cam and at sea level.

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....
_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

---

From: Joe Alexander <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 13:56:57 -0400 (EDT)

STICKERS
FLAGS
SHIRTS
MEDALLIONS
ETC.

John Hasty, et. al.

Joe Alexander
A. R. E.
645 1st Street
Jesup, Iowa 50648
319.464.4711  (cell)
[email-masked]

-----Original Message-----
From: john hasty <[email-masked]>
To: 'Joe Alexander' <[email-masked]>; rblake36 <[email-masked]>; fot
<[email-masked]>

John H. Hasty
Attorney At Law

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Joe Alexander
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 11:33 AM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

BTW, it turned out that Jerry Barker's fuel supplies in his RV/Hauler
trailer had lines switched from his genset to the race gas by an RV service
center. He was running street gas in his Spitfire and that caused his
failures at the Mitty.

For myself, I have installed a bone stock TR4 engine in the AMBRO and hope
to run it midpack and reliably next season.

Alexander Racing isnt in a position to deal with two race engines, and we
hope to return to the track in 2013 with maximum track time at the lowest
expense, with the TR4 and the AMBRO.

I sometimes think we ask too much of this old equipment.....especially as
amateurs who do most of the work ourselves.  Money is likely well spent on
the suspension.....all that HP is no good if you cant go around the corners.

I must be getting old.  But I dont want to tow to Mosport and Road America
and then return home with tortured metal.

Joe Alexander
A. R. E.
645 1st Street
Jesup, Iowa 50648
319.464.4711  (cell)
[email-masked]

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Blake <[email-masked]>
To: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 10:11 am
Subject: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

We just put a new engine

On to my
issue.

Greg

---

From: Christopher Bock <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 19:21:53 -0400

I still have badges and flags available.

Let me know if your interested

Chris