Subject: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

From: Robert Blake <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:08:17 -0700 (PDT)

Pops and I had a less than excellent weekend at TWS it would true to say that
we were beaten by equipment, one of us physically.

We just put a new engine
in Dads #14. The second one since December. We built this one with Wiseco
pistons, stock liners bored to 87+.005 on 1-3 and +.006 on number 4. This
resulted in the engine lasting most of the day Friday for test and tune. On
his last run we did a plug check. We had been trying to dial in his mixture
all day and moving from a lean condition as evidenced by previous plug cuts in
the day. After adjusting the mixture, reinstalling the plugs, gapping points,
and rechecking timing we started the engine to hear a horrible clatter from
within. Same clatter that dad had heard at the Mitty so we feared the worst.
Later that evening he and Bob Kramer confirmed that #4 piston skirt  was
scuffed again. The same thing happened on the previous engine at the Mitty.
Oil pressure was great all day (80 psi from 3000rpm up) the water temp never
went above normal range.

So other than lack of piston to liner clearance,
what causes pistons skirts to scuff on the liner?  Can a lean mixture on the
rear carb cause this without showing up as a hot running condition?

On to my
issue.

My aluminum hood pins broke on the TR3 on the back straight.
Unfortunately, the passenger hinge snapped but the drivers side did not. The
hood bent back and slapped my helmet pretty good (beaten by my equipment).
Never thought of it that way before. Not pleasant. So I am in search of a
decent bonnet. It is for a 58 TR3A. I am not too picky but proximity to TX is
a major consideration.

Info on both issues is appreciated.

Greg
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From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 21:06:38 +0000 (UTC)

In the past I've just honed them in the block with an oversized washer on a
head stud to hold em down.

If that's the wrong proceedure I'm still not to old to learn.

On another note, I just spoke to Calico coatings and they say they can put
anti-friction coating on

used pistons and put it on a little thicker to make up clearances. How thick I
don't know but interesting info

anyway.

jimg

B 

----- Original Message -----

From: "fubog1" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 2:57:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

B 87mm (3.425). I usually use BFEs LA Sleeve liners, they are pretty stout
compared to stock liners but still need a torque plate hone IMHO.
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: tr4racing <[email-masked]>
To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>; johnstydo <[email-masked]>
Cc: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 4:46 pm
Subject: AW: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

At what bore size?

Gesendet mit BlackBerry von Vodafone

From: B fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:45:10 -0400 (EDT)
To: <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

B Well not to start a controversy, but I have one on the bench right now,
torqued down and ready to go, and the mics don't lie.
The liners tend to waist down around the lower register.
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: tr4racing <[email-masked]>
To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>; johnstydo <[email-masked]>
Cc: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

We did a lot of testing with torque plate and we found NO difference with or

without.

Gesendet mit BlackBerry von Vodafone

-----Original Message-----

From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:21:56

To: <[email-masked]>

Cc: <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>;

<[email-masked]>

Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

B The other point that should be mentioned is that these liners should be
honed

using a torque plate.

They get out of shape once they are clamped down in place.

FWIW I use JE pistons and set them at .004, usually with coated skirts as an

added insurance policy against scuffing.

Glen

-----Original Message-----

From: John Styduhar <[email-masked]>

To: fubog1 <[email-masked]>

Cc: mmoore <[email-masked]>; jhhasty <[email-masked]>; tr4racing

<[email-masked]>; fot <[email-masked]>

Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 2:42 pm

Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

My math shows that MadMarx is running .005" piston to wall clearance
(.13mm/25.4

mm/inch=.005. B Wiseco's suggested clearance for their forged 87mm slugs is
.004,

but others (BFE) B have recommended .006, which is what my machinist is honing

to.

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 1:16 PM, fubog1 <[email-masked]> wrote:

B I'll try this again, my reply had too much text.

The manufacturers will call out a recommended clearance, but that's all it
is.

The operating speed, temperatures, cooling systems etc all are variables.

Generally the harder it is run, the more clearance it needs.

Also pistons can scuff during warm-up, under certain conditions, so it's a

good thing to get it up to temp before flogging it hard.

Glen

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From: EDWARD BARNARD <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 07:24:22 -0700 (PDT)

Group / Glen: At the risk of opening a can of worms similar to the "to torque
plate or not to torque plate" argument, I have a question for the group. I
have a certain interest in Greg and Bob's plight since I assembled the first
engine that failed. Clearances were .005" on all pistons to cylinder walls,
and we assumed that the failure was that the machinist I use didn't properly
use the torque plate I provide him.
When their machinists work failed in a similar manner this weekend it opens up
the failure analysis beyond one persons lack of attention. At the track I put
forth the theory of possible heat in the number 4 cylinder. This block has
been vatted and thoroughly cleaned multiple times so I'd like to rule that
failure out.
My question to the group is, to aid coolant flow to the rear cylinder I have
always routed the heater bypass pipe running down the left side of the engine
up to the heater valve port on the right side of the head. My thought being
that it is similar to "cracking" open the heater valve on your street car, and
that it would allow some flow to the backside of the #4 cylinder.
Any thoughts on this? Glen?
Also, when we first undertook the project Greg Solo mentioned that we might
need to drill the Chevy rods with an oil hole to "squirt" some oil on the
cylinder walls. Any further thoughts on that? Greg S., do you care to
elaborate?
The really head scratchier is that Greg Blake has the same set-up, and it is
running fine (knock wood). Same pistons, rods, crank, bearings, etc.
We need to solve Bob's lack of track issue so there can be another father -
son team on the track and not in the paddock.
-Ed-
 
--- On Wed, 9/12/12, [email-masked] <[email-masked]> wrote:

From: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment
To: "Robert Blake" <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2012, 5:25 AM

Scuffing is caused by piston expansion. Piston expansion is caused by heat.
If you are running adequate piston to liner clearance and you are still
getting excessive scuffing only on #4, perhaps the back of your block is not
getting adequate flow of coolant. If the coolant at the back of the block
does not circulate adequately, hot spots form, allowing the coolant around
#4 will reach it's boiling point. Once the liner creates enough heat for the
coolant to start vaporizing (boiling), a jacket of air bubbles is formed
around the liner, further impeding the coolant from doing it's job. That jug
gets heated more that the others, your piston expands more, and scuffing
occurs.

Next time you are prepping a block for a build, and are at the step of
rinsing the block with copious amounts of water, try this. Slide all four
liners in the block, and set in place whatever head gasket you are using, a
used head gasket is fine for this purpose. You are going to want to install
a few head studs and jury-rig something to hold the head gasket in place.
Then take your garden hose and stuff it into the water inlet hole in the
front of the block. Turn on the water.

You will note the lions share of the water is flowing out the front of the
block, and around #4 the water is barely overflowing. That's whats happening
to your coolant when your engine is running. Your 'cold' coolant from the
radiator enters the block at the front,  but most of it flows around 1 and 2
and goes up to the head and exits the thermostat housing. The coolantin the
back half of the engine is pretty stagnant, allowing hot spots to be formed.

For the most part, the holes in the head gasket are the what meters the
water flow from the block up through the head. On the stock head gasket
those holes allow too much flow at the front. Look at Mordy's copper
headgaskets for this engine, you will see he has made the coolant passage
holes quite small at the front.

To increase circulation at the back of the engine, you need to impede the
coolant flow from the block to the head in at least the front half of the
engine. I install small freeze plugs in the appropriate coolant passages in
the head, and then drill small holes in the freeze plugs to meter the flow.
This stopped all my issues with  excessive scuffing on the #4 piston.

But what do I know, I blew up this year as well!

Henry
[email-masked]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Blake"
Subject: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

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