Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

From: Michael Porter <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 08:51:00 -0600

On 9/12/2012 8:24 AM, EDWARD BARNARD wrote:
> Group / Glen: At the risk of opening a can of worms similar to the "to torque
> plate or not to torque plate" argument, I have a question for the group. I
> have a certain interest in Greg and Bob's plight since I assembled the first
> engine that failed. Clearances were .005" on all pistons to cylinder walls,
> and we assumed that the failure was that the machinist I use didn't properly
> use the torque plate I provide him.
> When their machinists work failed in a similar manner this weekend it opens up
> the failure analysis beyond one persons lack of attention. At the track I put
> forth the theory of possible heat in the number 4 cylinder. This block has
> been vatted and thoroughly cleaned multiple times so I'd like to rule that
> failure out.
>

One of those unaccounted-for variables might be individual variations in 
the blocks and heads used. I think the procedure of blocking flow out of 
the forward cylinders to increase flow through the rears has some merit, 
but consider this:  what if there were a mismatch of _both_ head and 
block to the head gasket at that cylinder, i.e., a coolant opening in 
the head blocked the gasket opening area on one side, while a mismatch 
to the block hindered flow on the other?  The net effect would be 
greatly attenuated flow out of the block on at least one side of the 
cylinder.  The other variable could be a casting anomaly inside the head 
at that cylinder or just forward of it.

Those are the sort of things that tend to go unnoticed during machining 
and/or rebuilding, but can have rather profound effects on performance, 
and can be a devil to find without hard data on temperature variations.

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....
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From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:20:27 -0400 (EDT)

No doubt that the rear cylinder runs the hottest, but I have found that if
the cooling system, oil and water, are in good shape, and IF the RPM is kept
within reason, (touches wood), it's not a problem for us.
I don't do any more than progressively open up the steam holes for the little
banana ports in the head gasket, bigger towards the rear.
A lot of guys are running pretty high revs now and this becomes more of a
potential problem, and on some "other" buzzy engines I do add a provision for
flow in the rear.
As a related matter of interest, I had a scuffing issue recently, 3 out of 4.
The problem was that #1 was the worst, very heavy, metal transfer,
progressively less back to #4, which was near perfect! Exactly the opposite of
what would be expected. After going over the drivers excellent track notes,
and recalling our conversation about not getting water temp in it due to a
very cold weekend, we concluded that the pistons were up to temp as evidenced
by normal oil temps, but the liners were too cold.
It's a real balancing act with these things.
Then as Greg S pointed out, lugging can cause problems as well, both lack of
splash, and losing the oil wedge due to drop in main pressure.
Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: EDWARD BARNARD <[email-masked]>
To: Robert Blake <[email-masked]>; fot <[email-masked]>; yellow04
<[email-masked]>
Cc: Glen Effinger <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2012 10:24 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

Group / Glen: At the risk of opening a can of worms similar to the "to torque
plate or not to torque plate" argument, I have a question for the group. I
have a certain interest in Greg and Bob's plight since I assembled the first
engine that failed. Clearances were .005" on all pistons to cylinder walls,
and we assumed that the failure was that the machinist I use didn't properly
use the torque plate I provide him.
When their machinists work failed in a similar manner this weekend it opens up
the failure analysis beyond one persons lack of attention. At the track I put
forth the theory of possible heat in the number 4 cylinder. This block has
been vatted and thoroughly cleaned multiple times so I'd like to rule that
failure out.
My question to the group is, to aid coolant flow to the rear cylinder I have
always routed the heater bypass pipe running down the left side of the engine
up to the heater valve port on the right side of the head. My thought being
that it is similar to "cracking" open the heater valve on your street car, and
that it would allow some flow to the backside of the #4 cylinder.
Any thoughts on this? Glen?
Also, when we first undertook the project Greg Solo mentioned that we might
need to drill the Chevy rods with an oil hole to "squirt" some oil on the
cylinder walls. Any further thoughts on that? Greg S., do you care to
elaborate?
The really head scratchier is that Greg Blake has the same set-up, and it is
running fine (knock wood). Same pistons, rods, crank, bearings, etc.
We need to solve Bob's lack of track issue so there can be another father -
son team on the track and not in the paddock.
-Ed-
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From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:50:05 -0400 (EDT)

Just a few other things to check.
Look at the underside of the piston for color, I like to see just a little
tan, that shows that it's getting good heat in the chamber. If is dark
brown/black, it has been too hot. That can cause the piston to run too hot and
it can scuff as a result.
Also look for a pattern, if it's scored/scuffed all the way to the top of the
pistons, it could be a ring issue, check for heavy wear in the top ring groove
(usually rich running). Or heavy burnishing/scuffing at the bottom part of the
thrust faces, likely ran out of clearance.
These long-stroke engines have a pretty high piston speed so at high revs they
are right on the edge of the limits...

 Glen

---

From: Larry Young <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:17:12 -0500

I have seen a lot of people that run the line from the rear heater port 
to the pump intake.  This will encourage more flow to the rear of the 
engine, but then it is taken away, so there is less flow through the 
head and back to the pump.  I spoke to a guy that modified his pump for 
an outlet so that he could run water directly from the pump to the rear 
of the engine.  I believe he ran it to the drain hole at the bottom of 
#4.  Seems like a neat idea and I'm surprised no one else has done it.

The best thing I ever did to help with this problem was to install a 
Chevy radiator that was the width of the inner fenders in my TR3.  I 
then had much more control over the heat in the engine.
Larry

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From: Tony and Annie Garmey <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:59:12 -0700

All my TR3/4 engines are fitted with a dash 8 line from the cold side of the
water pump  to the Block drain and a dash 6 from the water fitting in the back
of the head to the thomo housing. Requires some welding and maching of bungs
in the right places. Tony
 > Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:17:12 -0500
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From: "MadMarx" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 22:04:59 +0200

Maybe im not reving enough or have not enough power in my car but I run the
engine as it came from factory.
Nothing done.
If it's getting hot then I switch the heater unit on for additionally
cooling.

Chris

---

From: fubog1 <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:18:15 -0400 (EDT)

And there's not a thing wrong with that Chris!
Like the wise-man said... you can't race a broken race car...
Glen

as it came from factory

-----Original Message-----
From: MadMarx <[email-masked]>
To: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2012 4:11 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

Chris

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From: Tony and Annie Garmey <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:39:28 -0700

...as a side note< I should give credit to My father n law "gene" for
designing or coming up with the cooling system mods. Gene is a retiried engine
builder (sprint car/midget/hotrod) and also "his"bikes owned the 1 mile flat
track world records in the late 60's and 70's when he worked for BSA and
Triumph . Now, If anyone wishes to have the cooling system mods done , contact
me off list and we'll work something out.  Tony Garmeywww.horizonracing.com
 > From: [email-masked]
> To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:59:12 -0700
> > > that it is similar to "cracking" open the heater valve on your street
car,
> and

---

From: "MadMarx" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 22:52:38 +0200

Kas explained me that you have higher temperatures in USA than we have in
Europe.

So maybe that is a reason why you have to take more care about cooling as we
have to.

I had only two times races at  100F.

Von: EDWARD BARNARD [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. September 2012 22:50
An: [email-masked]; MadMarx
Betreff: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment

Chris: And that was my idea with running a hose from the two heater
connections on the engine.  The next step would be to have a heater (or
cooler in this case :O)) on those two hoses. It would add flow to the rear,
and aid in the cooling. If it added nothing it at least didn't hurt anything
as far as I knew.

Simple ideas from simple minds.

-Ed-

--- On Wed, 9/12/12, MadMarx <[email-masked]> wrote:

From: MadMarx <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Never be beaten by equipment
To: [email-masked]
Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2012, 3:04 PM

Chris
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