Subject: [Fot] TR4 Valve spring - pressure, assembled height, suppliers

From: "Tim Murphy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 13:40:23 -0500

The machinist doing the work on our cylinder head tells me that we only have
about 70 pounds of pressure on the seats.  He thinks this is pretty low, in
his experience with other engines.  He also asked if I had the assembled
height of the springs, i.e. how much compression when assembled to the head.
He usually has this spec and shims the spring to obtain the specified
height.  Lastly, the alloy retainers are pretty beat up and the origin of
the springs are unknown and he thinks they look questionable.  Who are the
suppliers of valve springs, retainers, keepers and spring seat hardened
washers for racing purposes?

Thanks,

Tim and Ryan

1961 TR4 #317
_______________________________________________
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From: "john hasty" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 16:31:56 -0400

British Frame & Engine has all that stuff, but we use Isky springs from some
NASCAR type Ford motor.  

John H. Hasty
Attorney At Law
Guthrie, Davis, Henderson & Staton, P.L.L.C.
719 East Boulevard
Charlotte, North Carolina 28203-5113
Tele: (704) 372-5600
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Tim Murphy
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 2:40 PM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: [Fot] TR4 Valve spring - pressure, assembled height, suppliers

Thanks,

Tim and Ryan

1961 TR4 #317

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

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From: Scott Janzen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 17:12:37 -0400

Try Isky- but you will need to know what spring pressure your cam maker requires at both open and closed positions.  For example, my GT6 cam requires a closed pressure of 62 lb and an open pressure with 1.55 rockers of 185 lb.  My machinist also tells me that the initial values of new springs will drop off significantly after a few heat cycles.  I'm assuming Isky and others will sell you springs that will "end up" at the range you want, rather than start out there, if in fact this machinist is correct.

On May 8, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Tim Murphy wrote:

Thanks,

Tim and Ryan

1961 TR4 #317

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

---

From: "Tim Murphy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 16:50:27 -0500

The cam is a Kastner G3 and the rockers are stock TR4 with 1.55:1 ratio.
The measured cam lift is 0.342 giving a measured valve lift of 0.480 with
0.016 tappet clearance.  This gives an actual ratio of 1.45:1, valve lift +
tappet clearance to cam lift.  We use a "red line" of 6000 RPM.

I checked Good Parts but he only lists TR6 parts, at least that I saw.  Are
the TR6 and TR4 valve springs, retainers, keepers and spring seats
interchangeable?

Thanks,

Tim and Ryan

1961 TR4 #317

From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Kas Kastner
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 3:54 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [Fot] TR4 Valve spring - pressure, assembled height, suppliers

i cannot help you with a parts without a lot of photos which I might not
recognize anyway, BUT, that is way way to low a seat pressrue.  I don' know
your cam, but if it is high lifter from Larry or something like my old G-3
then you want about 125 pounds on the seat.

Never be beaten by equipment

> From: [email-masked]
> To: [email-masked]
> Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 13:40:23 -0500
> CC: [email-masked]
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

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From: Joe Alexander <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 18:46:23 -0400 (EDT)

Tim,

Pretty sure our assemblies are from BFE.

Joe Alexander
A. R. E.
645 1st Street
Jesup, Iowa 50648
319.464.4711  (cell)
[email-masked]

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Janzen <[email-masked]>
To: Tim Murphy <[email-masked]>
Cc: ryan.murphy <[email-masked]>; fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, May 8, 2012 5:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR4 Valve spring - pressure, assembled height, suppliers

Try Isky- but you will need to know what spring pressure your cam maker
requires
at both open and closed positions.  For example, my GT6 cam requires a closed
pressure of 62 lb and an open pressure with 1.55 rockers of 185 lb.  My
machinist also tells me that the initial values of new springs will drop off
significantly after a few heat cycles.  I'm assuming Isky and others will sell
you springs that will "end up" at the range you want, rather than start out
there, if in fact this machinist is correct.

Thanks,

Tim and Ryan

1961 TR4 #317

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

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From: "Greg Solow" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 18:57:29 -0700

A G-3 cam should have over 110 lbs pressure on the seat. With light valves 
and other gear, we use 105 on the seat with an F cam, which has more gentle 
action than a G-3. We use a rev limit of 6800 RPM.  With the "F" cam and 105 
on the seat, the valves will "float" at 7200 rpm.
                                                                             
                            Greg Solow
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Murphy" <[email-masked]>
To: "'Kas Kastner'" <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR4 Valve spring - pressure, assembled height, suppliers

> Unsubscribe: 
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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 22:36:46 -0500

Ken Gillanders at BFE (British Frame and Engine) has good springs,
titanium retainers, ARP rocker studs, etc. etc.

Tell him Tony says hi and to take good care of himself.

Tony Drews

> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

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From: Larry Young <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 13:55:45 -0500

If I remember right, 70 lbs is pretty close to the seat force 
recommended for a stock cam.   Most racing cams use more.  I recommend 
95 lbs for my cams, but you will see others recommend much more.  The 
more I look at this stuff the more I believe this is due to some of 
these cams not having or not using a ramp.   The ramp is a low rate of 
lift (velocity) area where the lash is taken up and the impact occurs.  
I recently looked at a cam (not for a Triumph) from a big name 
manufacturer.  With the recommended valve lash, the impact velocity was 
about half the maximum velocity and more than 5 times what it should 
have been.  This is like hitting the valve with a hammer to open it and 
slamming it down on the seat when you close it.  Under these 
circumstances the valve will bounce unless you have strong spring 
force.  I have never looked at the G3 cam, so can't say anything about 
it, but I have observed this problem on other racing cams (Triumph and 
non-Triumph) and I believe it is the reason for such large spring forces 
even for our little engines with light valve trains.

see http://www.tildentechnologies.com/Cams/Tip_Lash.html

On 5/8/2012 4:50 PM, Tim Murphy wrote:
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

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From: "Tim Murphy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 22:10:08 -0500

Thanks to all who responded to my request for information on valve springs
and pressures.  I've ordered a set of springs and titanium retainers from
British Frame and Engine.  Generally the seat pressure recommended with my
cam is around 105 to 120 lbs.  I'll see what we get with the new springs and
shim if necessary.  I keep learning more as we go and this machinist/builder
is willing to work with us.  He does mostly Ford and Chevy V-8's for racing
but fortunately is willing to work on our "Tractor" motors.  With everything
that he has found in the head and crank and rods, and with the new parts I
hope we'll be a little bit quicker!!  Now I just have to get all the parts
and get it put together and on the track.

Thanks again, the FOT is fantastic!

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Tim Murphy
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 4:50 PM
To: 'Kas Kastner'
Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR4 Valve spring - pressure, assembled height, suppliers

Thanks,

Tim and Ryan

1961 TR4 #317

http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

---

From: "Richard Taylor" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 09:19:13 -0400

Greg,

I am doing a valve & guide job on my TR-4 head. My cam is a Babe Erson
BFE-149 with intake of 430 and duration of 282. My normal shift point is
5000 rpms with a never exceed of 5500. Inasmuch as I drive my car to events,
reliability, not brute power, is the game plan. 

May I ask your recommendations on valve guides (bronze vs. iron), their
clearances and spring pressures? What about multi-angle valve grinds?

Another issue. I found a conspicuous crack between the center 2 water
galleys between #2 & #3 pistons. It looks as if it's been there forever and
does no harm. Does that render my cylinder head toast?

Thanks,

Richard  Taylor
TR-4 #196

---

From: Tony Drews <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 21:53:26 -0500

Richard, the crack between #2 and #3 cylinders between the water 
holes is no big deal, don't worry about it.

I run bronze guides.  You just need enough valve to guide clearance 
that you don't stick a valve and they work fine.  Don't use valve 
guide seals either.

I had them put 0.003" clearance on my intakes and 0.0035" on my 
exhausts.  I remember Greg having good recommendations in this regard 
too, so am interested in his view on the proper clearance.

I was running 190 degrees at Road Atlanta and didn't stick a valve, 
so was pleased with that.

The spring pressures should be specified by the cam builder.  The 
Larry Young cams want about 100 lbs seat pressure.  Ones with more 
dramatic opening events may want more, but that's largely to prevent 
valve float at higher RPM than you run.

If you are having the seats ground, ask for a triple angle or 
radiused grind - I've been told that those can make a big difference 
in flow.  My (newly prepared) head was milled 130 thou, I cleaned up 
the combustion chambers a little to remove any sharp edges primarily, 
they cut off the exhaust valve guide flush with the top of the port, 
and I had a triple angle grind done.  NO porting whatsoever was done 
to it.  I'm not sure I could tell the difference in power between 
that head and my old Comptune / Uncle Jack's porting services head.

Tony Drews

---

From: "Tim Murphy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 23:01:27 -0500

Richard,
	In talking to 3 different machine shops it appears that the
"standard" valve grind for car engines is the triple grind.  As about the
only engines that have valve jobs any more are race engines, I think this is
the "standard" for race engines.  Tractor and industrial engines I think
still use the traditional single angle grind.
	The machinist I'm using now says he has 0.040, 0.060 and 0.080 width
valve seat cutters.  I think they all use carbide valve seat cutters now and
they don't really "grind" the seats with stones anymore.  Anyway, he says he
uses the 0.060 on the exhausts for more heat transfer surface and 0.040 on
the intake seats, for what it's worth.
	My head is also cracked between those two water ports and so was our
first head.  Must be pretty common.

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Taylor [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 8:19 AM
To: 'Greg Solow'; 'Tim Murphy'; 'Kas Kastner'
Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [Fot] TR4 Valve spring - pressure, assembled height, suppliers

Greg,

Thanks,

Richard  Taylor
TR-4 #196

---

From: "Greg Solow" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 23:12:45 -0700

Richard,
    I presume that by "intake" you mean total valve lift.  .430" lift is 
quite a bit more than stock.  I would use bronze guides and would try to 
obtain exhaust valves that have hard chromed or "plasma coated" stems.  We 
use .0015" to .002"  valve stem to guide clearance on the inlets & .002" to 
.0025" on the exhausts. Valve spring pressure with the valves closed should 
be 85  to 90 psi. You need to make sure that the spring you use do not go 
into "coil bind" at full valve lift. With the valve fully open, you must be 
able to stick a .040" feeler gauge in between the coils of the spring.
    We still "grind" all of our valve seats, and then lap them with fine 
compound to make sure we have a good seal. I guess we are "old school".  We 
generally use seat widths of .040" on the exhaust & intake with hardened 
valve seats installed in the head in both intake and exhausts.  I like to 
use 4 or more angles on the valve seats, 15, 30, 45, 60, & 75 degrees nicely 
blended to form as much of a radius as possible.  The hardness of the seats 
prevents the seats from wearing or "pounding" and changing shape as the 
engine runs. The most critical area in a head's ports is the 1/4" or so as 
the seat "blends" into the "throat"  of the port.  That area critically 
effects the flow of the port and the valve seat. This is not to say that 
other areas of the ports are not important. But on an engine with a cam like 
yours, you could spend a  lot of money and time for very little effect. The 
hotter the engine is, the more important the overall flow of the head and 
manifolds becomes. On a full race engine, ie cam with over 295 degrees 
duration, compression over 12: 1 and a power band going up to 7,000 rpm, a 
lot of power can be picked up by working on the exhaust port flow of the 
TR-4 .
                                                                             
                Greg Solow

---

From: "MadMarx" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 12:26:01 +0200

Was not lucky with the new engine.
Could be:
- Exhaust with two mufflers
- new header
- maybe carburetor  but dyno man said "it's not the carb, they are flowing
great"

http://youtu.be/oZcg4IBfYAk

Cheers
Chris

---

From: "TeriAnn J. Wakeman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 07:21:11 -0700

On 5/11/12 7:53 PM, Tony Drews wrote:
> Richard, the crack between #2 and #3 cylinders between the water holes 
> is no big deal, don't worry about it.
>
Shouldn't you at least peg the crack?

Teriann

---

From: Joe Alexander <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 10:39:25 -0400 (EDT)

I think we all agree that bronze valve guides are good to use, if:

they are properly clearanced...per Greg Solow, for instance.

and if they have good material chemistry and properties.

OK....CHUCK GEE or other metalurgist, what would you recommend for metal
specification?

I have seen some suspicious looking valve guides. Is there a supplier that
anyone trusts?

Being risk adverse, after a bad experience, we went back to oem type material.
But if we had control over the source.......

Joe Alexander
A. R. E.
645 1st Street
Jesup, Iowa 50648
319.464.4711  (cell)
[email-masked]

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Solow <[email-masked]>
To: Richard Taylor <[email-masked]>; 'Tim Murphy'
<[email-masked]>; 'Kas Kastner' <[email-masked]>
Cc: ryan.murphy <[email-masked]>; fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sat, May 12, 2012 2:20 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR4 Valve spring - pressure, assembled height, suppliers

Richard,

                Greg Solow

---

From: Tony Drews <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 11:02:23 -0500

Nah, it's in the water jacket area only.  If sealed it would block 
off water on one side with water on the other side, so allowing a 
little H2O through there doesn't make a difference.

Tony

---

From: Joe Alexander <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 12:17:08 -0400 (EDT)

TeriAnn is right.

It might be in one of Kas' books, I think.  TeriAnn's comprehensive website on
heads is back up, according to TeriAnn.  Another great resource that we have
on the FOT LIST, regardless of competition status.

There is a suggestion that this area can flutter and perhaps can disturb the
gasket seal.

The fix is something like drilling and tapping this area and running a screw
down to a solid point in the water passage.....then milling flush.

The FOT list is very much alive and well. The Mitty provided some stimulus,
methinks.

Joe Alexander
A. R. E.
645 1st Street
Jesup, Iowa 50648
319.464.4711  (cell)
[email-masked]

-----Original Message-----
From: TeriAnn J. Wakeman <[email-masked]>
To: fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sat, May 12, 2012 10:37 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR4 Valve spring - pressure, assembled height, suppliers

Teriann

---

From: Michael Porter <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 10:27:59 -0600

> OK....CHUCK GEE or other metalurgist, what would you recommend for metal

As a general rule, most all of the guides will be some alloy containing 
aluminum and phosphorus.  The higher the aluminum content, the more 
likely they are to grow, so one could probably do a comparison by 
weight, assuming the dimensions were the same from different suppliers.

There's one more trick that can be done to bronze guides that isn't 
useful with the cast-iron variety--knurling.  Aluminum bronze guides are 
more malleable than cast iron.  Trying to knurl the cast iron simply 
causes it to chip, while the bronze guide will deform, making a ridge in 
the guide bore.  Once that ridge has been reamed to the correct size, 
there are two advantages over using a stock bore.  First, the guide 
tends to retain oil longer, rather than pumping it straight down the 
guide bore, and second, the contact area of the guide bore is reduced, 
making the valve less likely to stick. And, even with the reduced area, 
the wear characteristics are generally better than cast iron, and a good 
bronze guide can be knurled a couple of times before requiring replacement.

Worth some experimentation, maybe. The business about valves sticking, I 
think, has much to do with improper clearances, and not the material 
itself, since the natural lubricity of phosphor bronzes is pretty good 
compared to cast iron, something demonstrated by the ability to use 
valve stem seals with bronze guides. Once the clearances are set up 
properly, and good stem seals found, bronze guides should contribute to 
a more consistently performing engine simply because the ability to use 
stem seals will reduce the amount of carbon accumulation on the valve 
heads and stems, keeping flow closer to optimum.

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....
_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

---

From: "Richard Taylor" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 12:28:07 -0400

The crack connects two water galleys (galleries, actually. I think it's like
footers[Yankees] and footings[the rest of the world]).

Richard  L. Taylor, Jr., FAIA
TAYLOR           ARCHITECTURE
112  Krog  St.     Suite  196
Atlanta,    Georgia,    30307
tel:           (404) 223-1313
fax:           (404) 223-1312
mobile:        (404) 660-4920
 www.taylor-architecture.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of TeriAnn J. Wakeman
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 10:21 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR4 Valve spring - pressure, assembled height, suppliers

Teriann

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]

---

From: Joe Alexander <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 12:42:24 -0400 (EDT)

Excellent, Michael!

Having been familiar with knurling from 50+ years ago, I quietly mentioned
knurling recently and got a positive response. Intuitively, knurling valve
guides makes sense to me. I inquired quietly because it had not been mentioned
on the list that I was aware of, and didnt want to start a useless thread of
controversy.

However, there seems to be a consensus that any kind of a seal on our wet
sleeve engines is not a good thing.

Joe Alexander
A. R. E.
645 1st Street
Jesup, Iowa 50648
319.464.4711  (cell)
[email-masked]

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Porter <[email-masked]>
To: Joe Alexander <[email-masked]>
Cc: gregmogdoc <[email-masked]>; tarch <[email-masked]>;
timmurph <[email-masked]>; kaskas <[email-masked]>; ryan.murphy
<[email-masked]>; fot <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sat, May 12, 2012 11:28 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] VALVE GUIDES REVISITED-Clearance and Chemistry  C. Gee?

Cheers.

--

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking
distance....
_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

---

From: "TeriAnn J. Wakeman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 09:45:29 -0700

On 5/12/12 9:17 AM, Joe Alexander wrote:
> TeriAnn is right.
>
> It might be in one of Kas' books, I think.  TeriAnn's comprehensive 
> website on heads is back up, according to TeriAnn.
Yep, still there, but old links will break because the site has moved to 
a new URL

www.tr3a.info

So if you want to know things like how a UK fuse corresponds to a US 
spec fuse, how to space the sticks to be correct for your hood, about 
the optional PYE radio & where the antenna goes, what tool rolls look 
like, how to tell which cylinder head is which, how a DCOE works, which 
hole is used for what in a post TS-60000 TR3A, or just read through some 
TR service bulletins, just drop on by the web site.
> Another great resource that we have on the FOT LIST, regardless of 
> competition status.
Unlike you guys, the older I got the more risk adverse I became.  I 
never got hooked on adrenalin.   But I am a data junkie and like to 
collect information about the TR2-4A's.

TeriAnn

---

From: Tony Drews <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 12:36:29 -0500

Subject was "[Fot] TR4 Valve spring - pressure, assembled height, suppliers"

I think we're talking about different areas of the head.

The area Richard was talking about is between the two water holes in 
the head between Cyl #2 and #3.

There's a picture of my (old) head here:
http://www.tonydrews.com/2008-9Rebuild/DSCN0536.jpg
It pretty clearly shows this area of the head, and you can also see 
the lines that are the edges of where the head gasket runs.

There is no gasket surface area near that particular crack, and the 
other side of the water jacket (to run the pin / peg against) is far, 
far away, very deep into the head.

On the other hand, there is the idea of "pinning" the head when you 
mill a bunch off.  THAT may have prevented the crack in the head 
which caused me to have to have a new one prepared.  There's some 
detail about that at the bottom of this otherwise unrelated page:
http://www.tonydrews.com/Tony_Car.htm

For that, you drill and tap holes around the periphery of the 
combustion chamber on the opposite side from the valves, screw 
something through the holes against the other side of the water 
jacket with some threadlocker, cut them off and have the surface 
ground / milled smooth.

There is also a method of fixing cracks using overlapping screw-type 
pegs "stitching" I think it's called - that was one possible 
suggestion for an attempted repair of this crack:
http://www.tonydrews.com/Test%20Pics/2012_0331Head_Crack0007.JPG

There may be some value in fixing a crack between the water holes 
between Cylinders 2 and 3, but I'm not seeing it, and "Uncle" Jack 
always considered that to be a total non-issue.  Cracks between the 
valve seats (another common problem) ARE a big deal.

Tony

---

From: "Tim Murphy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 14:33:11 -0500

Thanks Tony, good info!  My machinist was concerned about that and now I
have some more info for him.

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Tony Drews
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 12:36 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR4 head crack between water holes

Tony

---

From: "Greg Solow" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 12:35:56 -0700

Tony & TeriAnn,
    You may be right about the crack. But on a race engine especially, I 
like to have the center part of the crack pinned to.,  in theory at least, 
lock the front and rear parts of the lower surface of the head together and 
help prevent any relative movement between them. At least it makes me feel 
better to do this. If I were starting to prepare a head from scratch, I 
would look for one with no cracks anywhere.  The crack in the center of the 
bottom is invariably from severe overheating at sometime in the past. There 
is no telling exactly what other invisible damage there may be that could 
cause problems in the future. For  a street engine  this crack, if that is 
all the damage there is, should not cause any issues.
                                                                             
                                    Greg

---

From: "J.C. Hassall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 15:57:51 -0400

> washers for racing purposes?
Tim, Isky has been one recommended source.  If you go that way, be sure 
they have the matching retainers.  I ordered a set of their springs to 
go with the 777 cam I was using, only to find that they wouldn't fit 
standard TR retainers and they didn't have their own retainers in 
stock.  But if I wanted to order 5K of them, I'd have been good to go.  
Instead, I went to BFE and Ken fixed me up with his springs and 
retainers - great combination.  Good man there.

BTW, I'm using 110# seat pressure.

jim

-- 
Jim Hassall
Blacksburg VA
'63 TR4 in autox preparation
99% finished, 90% to go
_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

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From: "Greg Solow" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 13:28:15 -0700

At one time in the long ago past we used Phosphor, Aluminum- bronze. We found
it very hard, and also very abrasive. It had a tendency to wear through the
chrome surface of the valve stems very quickly. For the past 15 years or so we
have been using a Manganese- bronze alloy.  We had our guides made by
Precision Engine Parts to our specifications.  The inlet valve guides are
tapered where they hang out into the inlet port & the taper actually goes back
up into the head so that the contact point between the head and the guide is a
straight line around the guide, which it will not be if the guide has a
straight od. (because it comes out of the hole in the head into the port
through the wall of the port where it is at an angle to the guide. As the
guide gets hot and tries to expand, it only touches the head on one side as it
projects into the port. This will cause the guide to bend slightly to one
side, away from the long side of the port.
    The exhaust guides we have made with an internal counter-bore on the
bottom end. This is copied from the air cooled VW exhaust valve guides. A
certain amount of head carbon will accumulate on the part of the exhaust valve
stem that hangs out into the port when the exhaust valve is open. When the
valve closes, this carbon is pulled back up into the space at the bottom of
the guide and will eventually abrade the valve stem and the end of the guide
at this point. The counter-bore in the bottom of the guide makes a space for
this carbon to go where it will do no damage!
    Some of the best guides we have used were a process from Winona-Van
Norman, an automotive machine shop machinery and tool supplies. They called it
"Bronze-wall" It was a bronze alloy "heli-coil" like insert that was installed
into a standard iron guide, then "broached" into place and honed to size. When
the insert wore out, it could be removed and a new one installed without
changing the centerline of the guide. They were very durable and held oil in
between the coils of the bronze liner. Kas is familiar with this setup and
used it at the Comp Dept., I believe.  This only issue is finding someone with
the equipment to do the installation.  There are no machine shops in my area
that can do it. i do not know if Winona Van Norman still supplies the tooling
and parts.
    The higher the cam lift, the faster the lift rates, the more important the
guide material, clearance and installation becomes.
    The same of true of having the correct rocker arm geometry.  If this is
not correct, there is to much side load placed on the top of the valve stem
and the guides will not last, no matter what the material they are made of.
    There is a Web site called www.mid-lift.com  that talks about geometry in
great detail.  We have found that with the top of the valves at the stock
hight above the head, the rocker shaft needs to be lowered about .090" from
its stock hight to maintain correct geometry when using a cam that gives
around .465" actual lift at the valve. As the lift goes up higher, the rocker
shaft needs to be lowered, (or lash caps put on the tips of the valve stems to
raise the contact point between the rocker arm and the valve tip.
                                                                             
                   Greg Solow

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 20:44:35 -0700

Hi Joe,

I don't remember the exact alloy we (Jerry Barker and I) use, I'll have to
check through my records and report back.  As others have said, they just have
to have proper clearance, which is looser than cast iron versions, IIRC.  We
run very small diameter titanium valves which might be why we have no problems
(less surface area).

Chuck

On May 12, 2012, at 7:39 AM, Joe Alexander <[email-masked]> wrote:

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