Subject: Re: [CDO] Running like a hit and miss 1900 - 1905" <curved-dash-olds.autox.team.net>

From: Dan Suskin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:59:42 -0400

Roger,

Where did you add the fuel filter?  In my experience there is not enough
pressure to allow good fuel flow through a filter under load.  Is it possible
that the filter has trapped enough gunk that it is limiting fuel flow when
under load?

If the fuel tank has been well cleaned out, you really don't need that filter.

My 2c

Danni Suskin
...leaving only footprints

> On Jul 13, 2015, at 11:14 PM, Roger Garnett <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> Short Background:
> Car 1903 CDO 15713, restored in 50's, George Green mechanical work, AACA &
> London to Brighton in 50's -60's and beyond.  Mostly original components -
> Carb is an '03 side valve unit, splitdorf coil,  etc.
>
> When I acquired it last year it had been unused for several years, so I
> proceeded to clean & grease, replaced all the wiring, etc. and got it
> running. Fuel tank had varnish on the bottom 2", removed, cleaned some with
> acetone & ball bearings.
>
> First run - video here - not bad really.
> http://1drv.ms/1IWWy0W
>
> and here's the first drive around the yard
> http://1drv.ms/1IWWFJO
>
> Did a few short drives OK, and then a longer one to a gathering at a
> friends and it started running like junk. First thought ignition, but in
> the end bits of varnish had loosened from the ethanol fuel and was plugging
> things up Cleaned the carb again, added a filter, and it was running decent
> last fall and this spring.
>
> I just re-did coolant hoses & seals, removed valve cover, cleaned valve
> chambers and reseated the valve cover. Nothing drastic changed.  It started
> up ok-ish, but is running like junk again. It's about like a hit-and-miss
> engine - doesn't fire every time. Seems to be idling ok, but it misses a
> lot when I open the throttle, and has a lot less power than it should. fuel
> flow is great.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
> Roger Garnett
> [email-masked]
> _______________________________________________
> Curved-dash-olds mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://www.team.net/mailman/listinfo/curved-dash-olds
_______________________________________________
Curved-dash-olds mailing list
[email-masked]
http://www.team.net/mailman/listinfo/curved-dash-olds

---

From: Roger Garnett <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:39:32 -0400

> Ian K suggests: First clean up the ignition  cam lobe and spring with a
piece of cloth

I do need to go over this again - had to adjust the spring to get contact
to begin with. How long should the contact duration be?

> Second , take out the spark plug , reconnect the lead and place the plug
on top of the engine ensuring an earth contact .Turn the engine over to see
what sort of spark you have and if it is regular.

I've done that, have a decent spark.  (At hand crank RPMs anyhow!)  Spark
Plug is a bit sooty at this point.

> Recheck the timing

I should go through the valve timing process - altho it was recently
running reasonably!

> After that i would have another look at the carb for blockage.

The fuel path is currently all clear, and free-flowing. Great flow if I
pull the line off the carb, or the sediment cap.

> Also check the battery , it could be nearly flat .

Battery is freshly charged.

> Johnny sez: My car has the later 1904 style carb. It would start and run,
but had cut out / hesitation difficulty at higher speeds.  I blocked off
about 1/4 of the air intake to give more velocity thru the carb.

The early carb is very different, not sure what would happen.  I've had the
tube in place running to the "air filter" on the side of the body. Left it
off last night, no change.

> Gary H sez: have a tumbling machine mounted on the wall of my shop.  I
strap a tank to it with about a quart of abrasive tumbling rock and a few
quarts of soapy water.  Let it run for one or two days

Gary - I may take you up on a tank tumble over the winter!

Roger Garnett
1903 CDO #15713
[email-masked]
607 227-5648
Lansing, NY

---

From: Roger Garnett <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 23:58:59 -0400

My friend Randy, who has an earlier '03 came over and we had a very
productive evening.

I cleaned the grease out from the ignition cam, cleaned the flywheel, and
we measured the ignition and valve timing.

Cleaning the flywheel yeilded obvious marks - a single hole & scribe line
for TDC, and 4 holes across a scrabe for BDC, plus a couple more lines
that  turned out to be valve timing marks. My car does have adjustable
valve timing, as well as very steep intake & exhaust lobes. The intake
rocker is ground out to provide clearance for the tall cam lobe.

The timing numbers are interesting when compared to what's in the CDO
manual (Thanks Gary)

Ignition:
Manual - "the spark should fire about one to two inches after TCD, and
continue about 13 inches"
My spark currently occurs right at TDC, and runs for about 5". This is
obviously modifiable by bending the contact, but is staying as is for now.

Valves: The manual lists a couple, mine are an interesting mix:

Factory

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Roger Garnett <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > Johnny sez: My car has the later 1904 style carb. It would start and
> run, but had cut out / hesitation difficulty at higher speeds.  I blocked
> off about 1/4 of the air intake to give more velocity thru the carb.
>
> The early carb is very different, not sure what would happen.  I've had
> the tube in place running to the "air filter" on the side of the body. Left
> it off last night, no change.
>

---

From: Roger Garnett <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 00:01:10 -0400

OK, hit the wrong key - trying again:
My friend Randy, who has an earlier '03 came over and we had a very
productive evening.

Ignition:

Factory                      "George Green Restoration"                 My
car - also a George Green
Exhaust Closes 2" After TDC

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 11:58 PM, Roger Garnett <[email-masked]> wrote:

>> > Second , take out the spark plug , reconnect the lead and place the
>> plug on top of the engine ensuring an earth contact .Turn the engine over
>> to see what sort of spark you have and if it is regular.
>>

---

From: Roger Garnett <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 00:17:13 -0400

You wouldn't know I'm in it by the way I keep hitting the wrong key- 3rd
time's the charm.

I cleaned the grease out from the ignition cam, cleaned & taped the
flywheel, and we measured the ignition and valve timing.

Cleaning the flywheel yielded obvious marks - a single hole & scribe line
for TDC, and 4 holes across a scribe for BDC, plus a couple more lines
that  turned out to be valve timing marks. My car does have adjustable
valve timing, as well as very steep intake & exhaust lobes. The intake
rocker is ground out to provide clearance for the tall cam lobe.

Ignition:

Valves Timing at full retard: The manual lists a couple versions, mine adds
some interesting differences:

Factory                                        "George Green
Restoration"         My car - also a George Green
Exhaust Closes 2" After TDC        1 " after
TDC                                4 1/4" after TDC
Intake Opens     3" after TDC        2" after
TDC                                 5 1/2" BEFORE TDC (double checked!)
Intake closes     1/2" after BDC     6" after
BDC                                1/2"   after BDC (right on a scribe line)
Exhaust opens   8" before BDC    7 1/4" before BDC
8"     before BDC (right on a scribe line"

So yet another very different set of timings, with 2 of them right on the
factory marks. Again - George Green worked on this in 1957, so had pretty
well figured out what to do, i guess.

So we also filled the tank most of the way. Randy said his doesn't run well
when it gets low.

Started it up, and it's now running great again! Attributed to cleaning the
ignition & better head on the fuel. I will go for one of those
low-restriction fuel filters Gary mentioned, until my varnish is vanquished.

Roger

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:01 AM, Roger Garnett <[email-masked]> wrote:

>>> > Ian K suggests: First clean up the ignition  cam lobe and spring with
>>> a piece of cloth
>>>
>>> I do need to go over this again - had to adjust the spring to get
>>> contact to begin with. How long should the contact duration be?
>>>
>>> I've done that, have a decent spark.  (At hand crank RPMs anyhow!)
>>> Spark Plug is a bit sooty at this point.
>>>
>>> > Recheck the timing
>>>